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but organized existence in college. We had both of our bunk beds, like that with the desk underneath for the while I was humble he was even offers: exclusive discounts for teachers, students, military and first responders. Helix is offering up to two hundred dollars off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners at helix sleep slash cricket. The number of connections we have is not determined by how many followers we haven't social media or how many people you know we might invite here too, a General Equality party. It's really determined by the number of people with whom we feel we can show up as ourselves with whom we can be vulnerable with whom we can be truly, open. That's what defines the highest quality connections. L end the second. This is a technology theorist. You may be familiar with this great essay early in the pandemic about doom scrolling. Anyway. We argued that,

What we need in times of uncertainty, like the one we are living through, is not more information, which probably won't give us the certainty that were craving but more friendship which helps sustain us through the uncertainties. I'm John Pharaoh welcome to offline hey everyone. My guess this week is Doctor Viva Murphy, the surgeon general of the United States. I've wanted to do an epoch on pandemic doom scrolling for a while now and for those of one familiar with the term, it's pretty much what it sounds like you just keep scrolling through news about covert looking for bits and pieces of information to make you hopeful that this fucking,

Endemic will end soon, even though you inevitably come across panicky headlines that make you feel worse than when you started scrolling. At least that's been my experience, but I didn't ass doktor mercy to come on the show just to ask him about the COMECON variant, though we did talk about that. I asked him to come on because he spent a lot of time, a surgeon general both during the Obama administration and now during the Biden administration. focusing on the importance of mental health in recently, has been talking about two factors that are harming our mental health, social media and the pandemic. In fact, just before our interview there are high school, in LOS Angeles, where he issued a pretty rare public health advisory about what he calls in mental health crisis among young people. We talked about all of us. The intern,

action between the internet and our emotional wellbeing, why we doing scroll and how to stop it and how to make our mental health as big a priority as our physical health. But to me the most important thing we talked about was maybe the most unexpected loneliness doktor mercy wrote a book on the subject. He's come to believe that is at the root of a lot of our problems, and he makes powerful case for the importance of real life. Human connection then moved me in a way that was deeply cathartic. After nearly two years of being stuck inside and glue to our screens. I hope it does the same for you. As always. If you have questions comments, or complaints about the show feel free to email us at offline crooked, dotcom, here's doktor, viva Murphy, thank you for doing this. You know

you now have spoken a couple times on POD save America, about whatever the latest pandemic headlines were that weak. But I wanted to talk for this series about something pandemic adjacent, which is we're all handling nearly two years of living through covered talking about covered and consuming a daily flood of information about covered at a moment when we arrive spending more time online than ever before and I'll just start. By being very honest about my own experience, which is that I can't stop scrolling through covered is even though I know it's making me more anxious Have you ever had that doom scrolling experience or talk to people who have absolutely and I M, having almost everyone, has it's like he gets. The internet, the boy tat, so bad news, and you just keep finding more and more of it and part, recently type, keep adding more and more of it is because the outcome-

As you know, in social media platforms are up and designed to serve you up a more but you consume. But look I think it's a very common experience. and the question is how do we break that cycle? What can we do in those moments when we find ourselves the descending into you know that sort of this? If you will well it's anxious about the despair, it's what it's also shoving aside in our life like, if you like me, you probably experienced summit when you're supposed to be asleep right here about you gotTA. Let me just check my phone and the before you wait you in article seven, let's make you feel even worse about the world and you lost lopsided an hour asleep. So I in the coming at a cost, a lot of people in our country. Why do you think it so hard for so many of us to stop doom scrolling? What do you think we're all looking for? Will I think, when you find content

is compelling, whether that, because it inspires you or because, if alarms you, I it's hard not to pay attention you know it's like when you see a car crash, when you see something bad happened in our eyes, are drawn, I too a whether its If it were negative and- and I think that do the way again we consume kind. and is very related to the way that our platforms are constructed in it, actually designed Which is to serve you up more more content that will that will grip you, because many these platforms frankly are built on business models where they profit offered it I'm you spend, regardless of whether that's time well spent I. So I don't think it's because people are fundamentally flawed or broken that they're doing swelling that I think we are interacting now, but with technology platforms and understand human beings here and the brain very well, and they deserve

themselves to maximize our engagement, even if that comes at the cost of our mental health and wellbeing. There's also something about the way pandemic. News is presented and discussed especially on twitter. So I've noticed this dynamic where experts and non experts will fight over whether some covert take it either too optimistic or too pessimistic. And I wonder an expert yourself, though not one who gets into twitter fights. That's good. Do you have a philosophy on how best to communicate about public health in the middle of this pandemic to non experts like me in a way that its eyes and real, mystic, but still hopeful absolutely- and I think, is what this is Easy, and I think, during cove, and in particular, a lot of people became active on its own, the media, to discuss Kobe, who were necessarily talking about public thou, their science and medicine before this and this

include. Medical professionals and public health professionals and people are so learning how to communicate over their funds. Emma Social media and how to do so in a way that is often taken Ray but doesn't term cut corners and gives people an accurate picture here. So here's what I what I think about when I communicated social media now, I think its impact, never went to be honest about the limits of your knowledge. There are a lot of people he and social media project. Absolute confidence and certainty at times are very difficult to have that and people you know during times of concern and confusion. People want certainty, so actually get, swept up you know it s, sort of the narrative and messages from people who seem very, very certain, encounter somebody else's seems very, very certain, you know, and as an area where a group, but if you, if you mean

accurate scientists and engage in science. Is I have from my whole career? You realize actually how much uncertainty there is and how you have your protest with melody, so the best public health communicators, I've seen are up front about the fact that they don't have all the answers there clear about the limitations of the day that they have they create room for people to do You notice to recognise that our views may change our conclusions, may change, but optimism I think he's not fundamentally, about the data It's about who you are as a person and at what approach you take two to public health. I think, for example, that's it. I can't tell somebody that the pandemics and be over tomorrow, we can tell me the over next month or in two months or what I can say with confidence is an optimist. is that. I do believe that we will find better ways to live despite this virus I do think, will find ways to see the people we love to get our kids school to make sure that we can

get to work that we can go to wedding, so we can attend, funerals and begin visit, our loved ones in nursing homes, because we have you're tools. Now then, we had here, though, at this time in the question, is: how do we use a source? How do we make them available to people so that we can, on with much of our lives, but we are seeking to tackle covert. At the same time to me, that is an optimistic view, but it's rooted in reality- and it's not trying to predict that okay, all of the pandemic is going to be over in three months there, a lot of people who are occasionally right. They never uncertain on social media and that intermediaries, Israel, real red flag. If you will, How do you hurry distinguish between covert news that is useful to help protect you and your family and covert news that you just don't need to process like you know where we're speaking and right before this started, I think the first sort of labs has out of South Africa came out of

on the crown and I'm looking at, like what is neutralizing antibodies mean and I'm looking at case counts in South Africa, and I'm just like do I need to know while this like, I probably dont- need to know all this, but its freaking me out anyway. That is I mean it's its top to turn it off right, but I'll tell you- and I probably is public current you did for me to be saying- is somebody who's someday? communicate on social media, but I actually, they wanted. The best things you can do is to turn off your consumption the media and to give yourself, I literally a break from time to time I certainly know people who have deleted their social media apps from their phones, the gate and they'll check on a computer with their at their desks they just realized that the crimes and access, has real diminishing returns? You know you may find utility at the first one or two stories. My story eight or nine, are either not any holati utility or your day negative utility. Getting confused and more anxious and more worried. I so

I mean everyone, reducing consumption, Uppsala I'll. Tell you to mature with Amr cried. Given these critical questions, the three critical questions around it, is more transmissible. Is it more severe and as it is, you re, the protection of our it seems in their politics These questions were getting a bit symbol. Information on them over the next couple of weeks, I tell you this review tuned out for a whole week, you mean, I do that if you did, you came back in a week, you probably no worse off than what's happening. Unfortunately, now people are so hungry for information that they're taking any bit of data they can sign and they are interpreting it today, and drawing conclusions from it. Sometimes it entirely warranted are heavily caviar it and who gives again people. I sense that they might know. What's

opening, whereas in reality we don't know for certain and won't know, probably for a few more weeks. So even if we're not consuming covert news, as you mentioned, the pandemic has forced all of us to spend more time online by some measures are screen time jump by over fifty percent. Twenty twenty. I know my Mozilla control. What impact do you think this has had on us? Health lies I worry about the health impact on on his because it not only his screen time increase over all the population, but if you look at young people and kids, so home is actually doubled for them, and some people might think. Oh well, that's cause they were doing online school. actually no I'm talking about non academics. Non school related screen time has doubled for kids during the pandemic, from three point: eight hours a day on average to seven point seven hours today, that's They gave me a maritime now Question is what is the impact of that screen time directly, but also what is it crowding out in our life?

and I worry that from many kids, it's crawling out in person time it's crawling out. I am to be outside and be physically active, which we know is very important for your health, maybe crowding out you'd sports and other Hobbes that are important to kids. And has a direct impact itself of the screen time which- hence in part, in what they are doing it people are engaged in committee. Conversations with the groups are friends that they trust in their able open conversations in and learn from each other in a laugh with each other and and have it time than I can be very positive, but if people are engaged in wars of words, if you were like I'm on social media. I, if there then scrolling you know there are no fits except an hour. the other device in the date that can actually be quite harmful to their mental health We are in general terms. It is also the one of the great costs of the pandemic, which you bill not a problem that we deal with prepared Dynamic is the

increasing isolation and loneliness, but many people feel and if we want to overcome that in some sense, if we wanted to build greater connection in community, we have to figure out how to read held high quality interactions, whether that's online or in particular, offline. and I worry that the experience of the pandemic, especially increasing screen time it threatens that go a building, greater connection and community. And so I does worry me, you ve written that the values of social media sensationalism us versus them rhetoric, curetting one's life to seem perfect, are not working for us and are leaving many of us feeling inadequate and unworthy. Why do you think that these technologies that have connected more p will have left us feeling more alienated yeah. I think it's an important question, John, because you can imagine a world where these platforms could be extraordinarily helpful. in three uniting lost friends even help

family members stand touch and some people. They actually do that right. For example, I have certainly over the years found friends, you know from graduate school through social media to be connected with them in person and at one of our relationships I use social media platforms to stay in touch with family lives across the world. It's been very helpful in someone's, but I think the problem is really the business model? In part? That's driving the platforms This model is is driven in part by volume. Might the volume of interaction is when autumn we drives advertising in there eyes, revenue and droughts. Profit. What it doesn't necessarily drive revenue stream, is quality of time? So if you live in a world where a quantity of time spent on a platform is what makes it differently will seek to maximize that, and it is a well known, faceted human psychology. Then people tend to gravity toward things that

It had a high emotional balance. If you well to generate a lot of fear or later- Anxiety, A lot of anger. that's actually why you see those kind of posts travel so far and wide. social media and generate so much engagement. I don't think you're very many people that I have encountered or heard from above all the people have talked about this across our country over the years. who necessarily feel great after they enter into a war of words. You know on on twitter or, if you're, really good at what they dont have people repeatedly. You know I'm now another platform at me like it feels perhaps maybe satisfying for a second in an afterward, that's a brain, and you made other people so terrible in the process. So I do think that displaying a sort of objective maximizing quantity of interaction at all costs has led to an environment that has, I think, been enriched for anger for fear,

for anxiety and its taking it all on mental health and wellbeing and adding further in the disconnection many people were experiencing even before the pent up offline is broad, you buy trivial, do you know free trials. Renew without your consent, it's a business scam out to get you don't let the greedy corporations pie you're. My download trouble to take control of your subscriptions. It's the new out that helps to identify and stop paying for subscriptions. You don't need want, or simply forgot about on average people save up to seven hundred and twenty dollars per year with true bill, because companies make subscriptions hard to cancel trivial makes it incredibly simple, just link your accounts in trouble will cancel your unwanted subscriptions in one tap and your true bill concierges there, when you need them to cancel

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I've heard you talk about the way that social media conversations lack relational context, visual queues, content. If someone's speech body language, can you speak to why those keys are important? In conversation, then, and what we're missing when we engage Lanka's I've noticed that myself, even like you know, working remotely over the last year or so and you think well we're doing zooms and that's ok and were all on slack, but just having been back in the office and talk to people in person, you just notice a difference in the quality of the conversation, because you can pick on those cues. You know absolutely no John, you know have small children men when our kids were really small before they could understand a word we sat before they could say a word. We were able to communicate in part through visual two's brain

I appreciate it matches the sound of her voice, but our facial expressions are touch and the truth is that babies have evolved that way because its human beings, we need all of those signals to understand and communicate with each other the fullest extent. It's why you know over thousands of years we evolved to be able to interpret those signals as well, so that when you have conversation in someone saying something, but their body language doesn't match it. That thing said: what's up around five for you, that you might be missing something or maybe they're, not feeling comfortable with you. Maybe I don't trust you to be open. I, and so, when you don't have those choose, because you're either on zoom, which give you some of them in a one year and video conference or when you're on a tax base platform whether its text messaging or social media, were you block any about entirely it really. reduces the quality of a communication. So in real life I may see angry at you and be tempted to say something

and start to see the look of pain on your face and pull back recognised. in the garage. I want a lemon Impulsive anger actually led you to be injured and heard in some way. I'm so we temper are bursts. If you will like our emotions and calibrate them, Sunday cues, but we don't have those queues and we just unleash sometimes terrible anger or other emotions on people without, recognising the impact it has on them. But I also gig allows people to absolve themselves a responsibility and his because we have a responsibility to one another, I am responsible, John, for how I make you feel in a conversation experts are based on the things I say in how they treat you, but if I can just throw and love terrible, you know angry comments that people better hurtful, but then we walk away. Not knowing how it may have impacted them, then I can. They turned a blind If you will today, arrows and putting into the world. and then I think, is one of the dangers you know over

that we see time and time again on social media. So this is the thing is I much of humanity. We have learned to interact with each other now basin, Excuse interpret these queues at its tempered eyes, of our reactions we're seeing that people? Really? sing without any of those guard rails, place anxious amplify peoples anger, their sense of injury and its adding anything positive for mental health and wellbeing I think about this all the time I may I now tried it when tweeting, especially I try to offer myself a task on my way. say this to the person in real life, because I'm a minute stored, narrowly non confrontational person if you're built, but it's too a false somewhat, some would say, but you do feel this. Freedom on twitter,

to dunk on someone or to say something, a little nasty because you like, while I'm not going to see them and then I'm going to just keep scrolling in the feed and it goes away, and I don't think about it again and you don't actually have to think about the person that you may have insulted because they're not sitting with you. But if you had that conversation in real life with someone, you probably wouldn't do to have stuff, you wouldn't say have that stuff. That's exactly right and and is also just do you know he's relational context. Also they that matters is so much that when you're having an interaction with somebody like when you realise that somebody might be apparent, for example, you can picture for a moment that Haiti problem He had been up late nights worrying about their child. You no doubt and going in that somebody may about her job, my realize you know I ran borders like when I lost my job and a frightening. That was, but when we don't have any of those cues made because we haven't spent a moment to get understand somebody. I know somebody is easy to just treat them like the

the air, the ideology that they represent, toilets political party that they may be a member of an people, are so much more than their political affiliation. There's so much more than their point of view in a single, and I think that is one of the challenges we have today. I can society which how do you see each other as whole? Human beings outer re? Imagine and anything- capture away and interacting with each other, which is true too humanity and which treatises people in and not, as is a singular ideas to me, that at the heart of how we act is slowly battle. surely rebuild greater connection and essential Community is right. Now I'm really worried John, that the growing fragmentation and and polarisation that works Sing in society is in some ways getting worse. You know in their their platforms, it profit from their people to benefit from that, no doubt, but it doesn't change the fact that for your kids in my kids,

growing up that we don't want them to live in a world where Everyone is angry at each other. All the time where The internet is a minefield where people just tired, ass in grenades at one another all the time and where there's a practice of judging people before giving them the benefit of the doubt and proposing to understand- and that's not the world, we want for our kids otherworldly herself, but it starts with actually were we choose to do I love what you just said. I don't you pausing to ask what you say: this is somebody in person before you before you read. on social media. I actually do that with emails and also sometimes, if I'm really frustrating I'll think about writing an email. Sometimes email actually start writing it. But then I remember it all meant her mind. He told me never send something when you're angry every say something never write. Something ever posts. and saw always wait before I click send tried again are better placed to my, but sometimes it's actually remember something about that person. That was

play positive, and I really enjoyed I've somehow this just distracting myself and going to something that does give me Joyia playing with my children, forty five minutes or something and then I'll come back to the message and I realized I don't want to send it I feel that this must be working for you, because I know we ve only spoken a couple times, but it's really hard for me to imagine you getting really angry and and flying off the handle you see you seem like a very kind, rational human being so well whatever you do and must be working I get angry, you know at times you know if you meet my wife you'll see that she's there she's really common. like a in our relationship. Things are really upset me. You know from time to time you know, especially when I see injustices when I see like even John. I in I in my family. We lost him people to commit during this pandemic. I'm sorry, and and they died before they had an opportunity to access the vaccine right. So one of the reasons that I put as much effort is I can into trying to

help, people understand more about the vaccine is because we have an opportunity to save people's eyes now, because we have this in about my life I want I want to make sure to be able to their families. But when I see, for example, people who are wilfully spreading misinformation about the vaccine and potentially asking people their lives are times. I do feel angry. You know about that, but I also then making better I'm. I realise that you know it. No it's mine was ever changed by being shamed and blame. You know so, even though we might be made the upset or angry at times about some of these things. I need it to get into a better place. You know to actually be able to communicate about this

yellow than unhuman we're all human. We all experience anger is how we deal with it. I think that ultimately makes the difference between whether we build and strengthen connection and communicate effectively or whether we ultimately turn people away now. May I feel it? That's that's true of persuading people to take an excellent, that's true of politics, and I think this is another area where our addiction to social media has sorted fuelled the division that already existed. I mean I use you spoke about this a little, but this is what basically, that the central reason I did this whole series is. We have this incredible political polarisation country. I'm a Democrat. I can argue that, did the Republican Party extremism caused a lot of that? That's fine, but here's where we are. We have this polarization. Then we get into a Then we- and we are all on social media way too much so online a lot, then the pandemic hits an hour online even more at home and abroad.

really angry and really upset and despairing for good reasons, because you know we're in the middle of a pandemic, and I just think I really worry about sort of the state of the country and and and and how will be when we, I'm out of this- and I know you you worry about this- to enter you just came from. A high school here away when used where you spoke about the mental health challenges facing young people, because this pandemic, do you think that sort of our mental health, both individually and collectively, has been a big enough part of the nation discussion during this pandemic, simple question: Jain. I think that our mental health and wellbeing has been one of the greatest casualties. endemic, but it's made an invisible price to we paid and so its lesson obvious than the number of lives lost, her hospitalizations, even Kurt number people have tested positive, so We track what we see, but I think that often means that we are paying attention to the hidden costs like mental health,

so you worry about it and another thing: did you know we sort of law? and over many years from the experience of natural disasters is in many people's, our challenge is actually will the crest after the immediate threat, has resigned Writing any, can understand that sort of like in the midst of a crisis we pull together. We just try to figure out how to get through that enough. Than we are to realise the full impact of the crisis? I don't know that's when we can really struggle. So I worry about it you know I met some kids, you in it, round table yesterday I school students who are extraordinary. A king drew ice in a way GOSH. The stories they were told me John, were heartbreaking. Not only had many them lost loved ones and a hundred forty thousand people, actually young people in our country have lost a caregiver. I during this pandemic is a global nineteen, but they talked about just me, I selected from their friends for a long period of time. They talked about the stress

on their parents, many of whom were struggling with their jobs during the pandemic and how to filter down to the kids in terms of the stress that they felt. So I do think that our mental health, taken a big hit, but I should think, there's also a silver lining here, a potentially John, as I see it, which is there, but one day that many people have come to realize during the pandemic is dead. The relationships that there had in their life. a lot more important to them perhaps- and they may realise- perhaps some of us. I myself a clue took some of those relationships for granted able than we were, able to see people ass readily ass. We otherwise were so they made us realise, cost those relationships really made it difference in which is nice to have. They were really critical for our raw how to help me. I said Time times I the pandemic I've never been sure if I'm an introverted extrovert, because I'm

The type of person who will like go to a party and talk to a bunch of strangers by am the kind of person who really loves being around my circle of friends, myself circle- and I we I discovered or in the pandemic, were of course we were we're, shutting pursues the middle pandemic, and then we had Charlie, and so now we are new parents. Also in the middle of pandemic- and I had real struggles in those months after he was born- not only just the struggles that every parent has with a new baby, but I just like lost a bunch of way, and I was really sad that you don't know how I realized it was because the relation may I have a wonderful wife and we have a fantastic waiting ship and something for that. Beyond that, beyond my immediate family, I wasn't seeing in connecting with the people that I love and talk to enough and I didn't realize and type I started reading your book, which I want to get too about loneliness, but that's what it was. wow, that's really powerful giant to hear that.

And I let me ask you a question: how did you had you connect the dots there here the inside- said- like a how you are feeling was connected to your lack of connection. If you will the people you love because I'm such a m, you know I won I'm a workaholic right, but I also have always worked jobs that I find incredibly fulfilling and there's sort of a collective mission to the jobs right. I'm on campaigns I started crooked media and so get a lot of joy. Out of the relationships I have with my colleagues with people on working with a lot of my best friends are also people that I work with and have worked with in politics for a long time and am when you don't have that every day and you're just texting. Folks are yours, zooming folks, once in awhile or you're, just calling your parents calling your family and you dont have those moments. When time isn't structured,

you know why, because window, you know, we have this thing. We're maybe we'd go see some of our friends and send someone's backyard six feet apart for ten minutes and ever answers staring at each other and you do a half hour of catching up, and then you go back and it's another week until you see people again, that was like the middle of a pandemic right. That was the experience and that's just a different kind of conversation. Indifferent kind of social connection then you're used to having- once I started thinking about that, I realise that yes, it's the middle, the pandemic in yes, we're tired, because we have this new born, but those moments is what I'm really missing, and I think that was contributing to talk to me feeling that but he's really powerful, and I suspect that you're not alone, I mean I I my kids response, but I remember what it was like when are they were born and that such an intense period were. in some ways. At a time when you really need people around you to be helping

it's easy for research in modern society, actually just shut down and go into a bunker. Fuel were its unity, this huge had, I figure everything out and get. You know that three in the morning they were eating skipped. Yet everything done department and If you dont, if you'd just happen, you're the pandemic, we especially don't have. It sounds easy for people in family to come and help out. That can be really incredibly tough. You know it is a wonder, mistrustful times your life, but I think actually what you're talking about, though, is in to me, one of the greatest and most important lessons at the pandemic, which If we realize now that our and actions in our relationships with each other are so extraordinarily important the question is: what are we going to do about that because I do think that for many people, if you had asked that gonna take ten people off the street Nelson, what's your most important priority in life, I says The vast majority than we name a person why they were like NEA their spouse or their child, or the parents, or with the best friend, or some like that. But then, if you

like how we live. Our lives done, and I would say this about myself, especially prepare endemic. My the impact, Ladys is judged by where I put a time, attention and energy probably not as much on people as they were on work right now, You may brutally honest better, even I would say the people mainly for the most important to me and the pandemic really forced me to grapple with that discrepancy. You know that inconsistency, and say. Well, what would it look like? A really live, a life where I put people first, where my life around my relationships and unfit working, I is best I could or other priorities versus the other way around very interesting way. When you look at what s behind the great resignation John Seconds, right now, with millions of people, you they're waiting their jobs questioning their jobs While there are certainly many people, people are able to do that are often in a position of privilege of being able to have a choice about whether

work or these unprecedented number setting tell us if people are looking for something different. In the conversations that I've had with many employers in. I have come to see it. some people think that this is because people holding out for bigger paychecks. Now that may be one I did this brand shooting it's a small part of it I think that many people are reacting to it. To see me calibration reckoning. If you well, I do spend omega. What really matters, whether they really want their life. Some people have moved to be closer to family and our singular really want to move back if, after come back in person, the people have realised that the two hours spent commuting eyesight there now spending actually having dinner with their family, and they dont want to. Let go of that. People are are reassessing. Are there in a way that is often centred around their relationships with people and asking how to make that a more central park, their life into me. That's an incredibly promising signs it's a silver lining, but what worries me John, is that the fact that people are contemplating- maybe maybe

longer term changes. Its interim people does not mean that we will actually do it right, because could be a moment that feeds and where we proceed in a sense back to two thousand nineteen with all the goods and announced At that time, but my what is it we can make a different though we can actually come out of this pandemic stronger than we were prepared, they, because we make the active consciousness in intentional decision to craft our lives in ways that are centred around our relationships with one another. Offline is brought you buy one huddle. Have you ever worked with someone? You had to explain something to ten times before it stuck Why do you look? Asean is looked at love it. I hear what I want to hear. I make trade off the secret to make training. Stick the first time with me:

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yet another issue that become politically polarized right either you complain about restriction, because there are harming our mental health or you say no, it's more important to save people's lives. We should focus on that first and we can worry, but everything later and has become a both sides thing. How do you think about the balance and potentially tension between pandemic public health policies that are designed to protect our physical health and public health policies? Then prove our mental it's a ascension, important question and I think that one of these having we have to do in public health is to get better at being explicit about the trade offs and about recognising that our mental health and wellbeing actually is an incredibly important consent nation, even in the short term, and I think if we I do hope it all over again there's probably some things that we do differently. In retrospect number one, we will probably take a hard look at how to keep our children in school.

I'm worried these having some degree of in person, interaction recognising that not doing so. I came in a great cause for them and, Inter for their pair and then the other thing we do is actually look at visitation policies in hospitals. The nursing homes you may remember. In the beginning, the pandemic visiting privileges were taken away in many resolutions, because people were worried about spread, but that lead to these heartbreaking stories of family members not being able to be with their loved ones when they died having to say goodbye. Reezun later people missing out on the last month of a love one's life who is meant in a nursing home because they were unable to see them for the last few months, those risks ordinarily high prices to pay, if you think about it in terms of people's well being, and I think we would probably find ways to strike a better balance you know if we had to do this all over again, but look. We were at the beginning of a pandemic that we didn't fully understand, but I do think

That is the challenge we have had as a society tat. Is they ve? Never looked a mental health unequal footing to physical health risks, been true, not just in societies been true specifically in the medical system. Right, I look how much time we spent learning about mental health and wellbeing in medical school comparatively. else there's a comparison, you mean the same inner and residency training and that is actually getting somewhere, still reflected in public health in the public health has made a lot of a dance it does. It feel in recognised the power of mental health importance. Still, I think we tend to not prioritize it or way the impacts on mental health. Much as we should so this evening is a really important point, a learning for how we approach about help dimensions, and you know, and measures in the future with

consider mental health is part of our overall help and we have to treat it that way. So you know you ve been interested in these issues long before the pandemic. I mention this by your book is fantastic. It's got together the healing power of connection and sometimes lonely world. We just mention them this briefly, but I think a lot of people think about loneliness as physical isolation. You define it in a different way. Can you talk about that? Louis and outrage on this is not an issue that it eat only five years ago I be focus on I would add that as a sort of power, any credibility to visit by GOSH. I spoke some fifty other things bits This is an issue as really educated by people around the country about how important a consequential loneliness and- let's talk about. Actually, it's a loneliness is the subjective feeling better.

Connections you need in your life are greater than the connections. You actually have an eye gap. You experience loneliness. I too feel that they can be painful. They can actually feel physically painful to people at times, but it also a feeling that over time can increase our risk of depression, anxiety, premature, premature death, heart disease, the disturbances, dementia and the list goes on and on. The bottom line is loneliness as impacts on our mental and physical health. The loneliness, different from isolation, Isolation is more objective. Descriptor of the number of people you have around you but one of the things I came to see John when I service surgeon General there in the Obama administration was that you will be surrounded by lots of people and feel quite alone. In fact, I would go to college campuses around the country talk to students who is right about hundreds and sometimes thousands of other students on campus, but you told me that they felt profoundly alone,

There are many times also me as a certain general. I ain't it. but who had experienced loneliness from many parts of my childhood and anytime. adult it I search engine. I was surrounded by people all the time, but that they times where I experienced actually minutes, because I realized that is part of my. so fully mercy myself in work. I had made the mistake job of letting some of my time and bitter with old friends, diminish in some cases disappear altogether. I had lost my contact, you know with the family and friends in it and done so because I bought you no matter how much time I haven't shoppers and do much good ass. I can, and these are the story We tell ourselves about why we got ourselves off from relationships, but the reality is that I could have done more and better, if I had actually stayed connected to the people in my life, because our really our relationships or worse, a few. Our connection is what helps us

just be more and to do more in the world I heard Saint Pike, S, that the way little children act proves that were born to be social relational. creatures? And it's not that we lose that desire? It's that a whole bunch of stuff gets way r, r, r, individualistic culture a chief among them. Can you talk a little bit more about the? What gets in the way Absolutely, and- and this is where becoming apparent for me- has been such an educational experience, so much from watching my children and how they engage with the world. Like kids, for example, have this. remarkable ability to find join wonder in the mundane. Riding This parliament will always be fascinated by him. You know, and you know, we might be worried about what's happening to stop Margare what's happening with, like you know, the number of you know Kobe cases a route. efficiency are there, but there their findings In the moment,

to find a way children treaty on another is a superpower. like some children find their instinct is just to reach out to other states, is to be kind. As I still remember my son, whenever somebody with a Mowbray eulogists I'll, give him a hug that was, I tried early is just starting to do that now. He says he says: Hucks hugs yeah just goes round and just like now he's like hugging inanimate objects tool, but that's, ok, we're fine, like everything, but it such a is such a powerful instinct and it seems so natural. You know It is, and I think it is our and remains, I think, throughout the course of our life, our deepest instinct, which is to connect with other people too. I do so in a way that informed and driven by Jove, unkindness in compassion, not by fear, anxiety or anger, but happen, sources as we get older right, we come to learner were time may be to our difficult experiences are from but we see around us dead if you're open with your feelings that people would take advantage of it.

And we come to learn that experts Skynet steward somebody in they don't express it bad than that means you been rejected, and then these people to feel bad about some strike. So all of these things happen to us which interfere with our ability to fully show up as who we are and that's why I should think so. Much of rebuilding a connected world and a connected life about becoming somebody that we are not so are returning to whom we fundamentally were when we can into this world we ve been for thousands of years. I sought an easy thing to do, but it its fundamentally different from saying gosh we got it got a trance me too, something totally different. No, this is about returning to home to what for good in the way. The way we know that in part is then, when you about those moments time and that we have all had a life where we were able to be in conversation. with somebody in truly be open and bonnet all were able to receive love and support from them and maybe even express love and support

for them as well. You walk away from those moments time feeling so good luck. They just felt right. I guess it out renewing and that's how we know that. That's who were supposed to be and so life to me is like when I think about what would make for a meaningful life. Now, I think about creating more moments like that were I can be authentically, myself, and this is how it I want to teach by children about relationships is now that the number of connections we have is not determined by how many followers b one social media or how many people you know. We might I dare to a general Equality party. It's really did about a number of people with whom we feel we can show up. As ourselves with whom we can be vulnerable, with whom we can be truly open that's, what defines the highest quality connections- and you have a lot of people- unfortunately, dont have those can

she's got here. There are those who we call those internet connections right, there's over the close, the circle of friends there also relational connections. If people have you know with our colleagues and others who I mean it out of your life, you mean about Lena Silly, be best friends with them, but the people who share and experience but and then they are community connections? If you well that when the regulation, we haven't, people might be part of the same charter, synagogue group, our memories. part of the organisation that we volunteer with. Human beings, we need all three types of connection, I in our life between It's so intimate connections that often make us feel like we are seen and heard, but were understood. They make us feel at home. while disappearing things full circle. L end. Mr Casa HU the technology theorist. You may be familiar with the screen. essay early in the pandemic about doom scrolling any basically is that what we need in time,

of uncertainty, like the one we are living through is not more information, which probably won't give us the certainty that were craving, but more friendship which helps sustain us through the uncertainties. Would you agree with that? absolutely the more we learn about human relationships, the more we learn about how powerful they are as a source of healing as a buffer, stressed and anxiety. You know we. The thing is that this is to me one of the most powerful things about relationships. Is there We have survived over thousands of years because of their relationships we had with one another. I you know that the person who tried to go it On his or her own, Thousands of years ago, when your Andrews, your gathers, like you know what happened, a person may die right there, a predator, they start because of an inconsistent food supply. It was the people who built try. the relationships that truly survived

John, you know when I think about again to come back to our kids. Now. So much of our lives and our answer: kids, more parents and from its change the filter through which I think about the world, when I think about what I want for my children more than it else in the world right, it's there for them to be happy. I want them to be fulfilled right. I want them due to have deep, meaning I get in their life, but he's not gonna come necessarily from the job they are or how much ends up in their bank account or how many words they have to put up on their wall and to me. That's without did the thing that I worry about with Modern society break. His modern society tells us said our self worth comes from weather now we are successful, but it defines our success is our ability to either a crew wealth power, or those three things no or will we define is being successful. Indeed, all three while you're super successful, they think about it.

movies that we make in the book simply write about individuals that we hold up a successful there. Often people who have achieved fame power or well But the reality is, you know what I think about people and John that I have cared for in the hospital over the years. People who are at the end of their life people were actually reflecting on the most beautiful moments of their journey. Very few of them talk about how wealthy they are or how much power they have very few of them talk about how famous they were, how many followers they had on social media, but they would talk about in those final moments of life with their relationships, the people they love the people, they missed the people whose life they were grateful to be a It is so clear, John than those final moments of life when everything by them meaningful strands of life fall apart, all away rises to the surface. Our relationships, and I just don't think that we have

to wait till the end of our life. To come to that realization, I think, has given us an opportunity to reset we assess and to understand what really and truly matters in life and that is our relationships- is one another and that's why that's what I want for my children is too for them to lead a truly connected life. It's. Why We have, I think, not just an opportunity but an imperative. I too, in asked in our relationships as individuals, but also as a society, to figure out how our institutions can support really how do we design workplaces that support healthy relation? ships which my colleagues, how do we design school is a good kids, a foundation for healthy relationship from the earliest stages, and how do we create neighborhoods which model for our children? the community is more than the family that you're born into it can be your neighbors and those with whom you share you, no common ground, so this to me is the great challenge of our moment, but also the great opportunity,

If we see that about a more connected world, I think we will be more fulfilled. I think we will be healthier. They will be happier and that to me as the best definition of success that we can hope for other desert wonderful place to live in the beautiful but last question progression. American or I guess what your favorite way to unplug. How often you get to do my favorite, we're unplug is actually to em tents. Stories to my children, I make up stories. I tell him the Maginot line. They do not turn out yesterday, as I loved him lying down in bed with one of whom each side, our holy men close and then taking him through this wonderful, fantastic, imaginary, tail and debt, and they love it. So I love the doktor, reject Marthy. Thank you. So much Wonderful. I really appreciate the conversation to thank you so much. I am so glad to challenge to care you too

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