I started thinking. Ok, the person whose saying something nasty or being nasty, maybe they're just you know they just popped alphabet tweet. So why am I going to respond to that right and then keep this whole cycle going right? You know and in times I'll tell myself, lakes mainly private point, I probably I'm annoying until your script. that's right.

Be. I was an asshole Lena Dunham had a great quote where she said. I I guess I'm not for everyone, but I now think about that myself. When people have valid donks, I'm weak Yahoo. I guess I'm not for everyone. I'm John forever welcome to offer everyone. My just this week is Lisbon Tunic, a journalist who worked at the Washington Post, the New York Times and now the Atlantic. I wanted to talk to lose because she's researched and written extensively about what she calls one of life, most morally challenging task. Forgiveness forgiveness may not seem like a topic. That's directly connected to the internet

one of the things I wanted to do with the series is focused on issues that the internet has made more difficult to solve, and I actually think this is a big one, especially at a time when people seem unusually angry at each other. All the time you see it on planes, you see it at sporting events and, of course you see it all over social media and is not just about policy, anymore. Nearly two years into this pandemic. People seem angry about almost everything. A lot of this anger is understandable, even warranted and I don't think any of us want to live in a society where we don't hold people accountable for the harm that they cause others, but I think it's worth asking what happens if we don't give people more space to learn from their mistakes to change their behaviour to grow? What does that reluctance to forgive due to us as individuals? What is it due to the larger project of liberal democracy, which only works if we find ways to debate and disagree and live with each other

peacefully and productively. Listen. I try to answer these questions as to people who were very online very opinionated and Are you familiar with dumb twitter fights? We talk about all this, spiritual and moral foundations of forgiveness how the public nature of the internet makes it harder to forgive and why a healthy democracy depends on a solving this challenge. As always, if you have questions comments or complaints about the show feel free to email us at offline at crooked dot com, Liz Bruening, I'm doing this show about time all the ways that the internet is breaking. Our brains and- and one thing I worry about a lot- is that it seems to be making us angrier more vindictive, less empathetic unless forgiving an

I think that makes living in a diverse, pluralistic democracy a lot harder. So I wanted to talk to you about this for a few reasons, one you written and spoken a lot about forgiveness, too, You're, a progressive catholic young mom lives in a city and works in journalism, which means that you see the world from quite a few different angles and three you seemed be the target of a lot of inexplicable vitriol on twitter. I see people lose their shown. You like every other week, and I have no idea. the idea of a kind of having a kaleidoscopic our view of the world. I think something all journalists should aspire to just because if you don't see the world from a lot of different angles at the same time we're missing something I would love to start by hearings or of how and why forgiveness became important to you. What would through you to this topic

yeah so into major part of Christianity. It's in I am, I am catholic. I was raised Methodist in Texas and I inverted to Catholicism later in life. While I was earning my degree and christian theology at Cambridge, as a Marshall scholar, I sort of became convinced during my research there and my time there that Forgiveness is the single most challenging Morally, challenging task of a christian life and its great moral and ethical riddle and then that's really what I became interested in and, as I became more more focused on it, I became more and more convinced that that is sort of the key to peaceful human life.

interesting. I I was raised Catholic, but raise Catholic and River, a suburban Boston town and that's when Catholicism was taught to me more about guilt instead of looking inwards, and then I went to college the Holy Cross and in western messages, it's in that's run by the Jesuits, and so that's why I really should have got it a different experience of Catholicism, which is much more related to social justice, and then forgiveness become something's, not just about you, but about what you do for others and in that shaped a lot of my social and political views. But I was sort of wondering how would you can argument about the importance of forgiveness to someone who is not religious yeah. I think it's it's odd, but it's easy to do

It's just a matter of setting up expectations at the top of the argument, which is you know what I'm aiming for here is peace, and what you have to understand about peace is. It arises out of the the ending of a cycle of retribution and so, when someone injures you and someone does something wrong to you, there is a very natural completely understand

and a bull and I'm not even sure. Morally and people arrive to retaliate, retaliation being mere politically important and an important inter personally as well, and so I M not trying to argue for a sort of unsophisticated blank pacifism. Were you just never respond to injury, but when you do respond to injury with some kind of retaliation, it's never without collateral, and it's almost never perceived by the person. You retaliate against as proportional justified and a settlement of the matter. Rights or the person you retaliate is never like. That's fair deserve our so because you have collateral. The higher likelihood item is that you're going to get another retaliation and then another and then another and

is ample historical evidence that this is indeed what happens. This is what Romeo and Juliet, for instance, is about these sort of endless so distant from the initial injury that it's hard to even remember what the feud is about the Hatfield. Mccoy is another famous sort of american example. and so these are real phenomena that happen so peace in achieving peace, is something that democracy relies on a peaceful civil society in Do you have your peaceful exchanges of power and so forth eyes on having some,

to resolve conflicts to deal with the fact that people are going to her each other without getting into these endless cycles of retaliation? How are we going to deal with that and I think in as much as I thought about this. The answer is: we have to have a culture of forgiveness that stops that cycle right there. If somebody slaps you, you give something to them, Now, if you want to see a multiple retaliation flying back and forth Unita, look no further than the internet took. To what extent do you think. The internet and social media have made forgiveness harder, or are these platforms just highlighting something we ve always struggled with a society? Yet I think there is a tendency for people to say that the internet just highlights tis tendencies, realise hat, but I don't think that's quite true.

I think that the internet is something very new in the history of humankind. We ve never been able to all to each other at once before, and I get something were actually entirely wired for were sort of wired to Lake Livin bands of I don't know twenty to fifty only travel with a few miles of wherefore Borchert been. Obviously what we're wired for it doesn't speak to morally what we ought to do. I think it's great and not morally wrong. They were able to all talk to each other at once and go lots of places and be lots of things now. I think that's great and it's obviously led to many wonderful things, but I do think we haven't developed an ethic to deal with it. Yet

We don't have a moral story about how to be good people with this technology in hand. Yet we still have ethics that were developed in a time when this kind of technology was simply not available to us, and so I think that yes, the internet, the Tec ology and our capabilities have developed much faster than our moral story about how to behave in these contexts of our different. The paradox of the heart of the internet is this technology there was forced to connect us and help us better understand each other by bringing us Closer to one another has ended up, alienating us and sharpening our divisions, and as such, I wonder how that came to be it's like a weird tower of Babel thing:

yeah, it's like what, if everyone in the world could talk to each other, they would probably get together and do something great. It's late now move though you just get together and do something really evil and others a site. logical phenomenon called group polarization. You know you get together with Friends and you're all like green knight to cool movie and your your friend is late notes, a great movie and then your other. Thirdly, it is the best fucking movie and then pretty soon you're, all like there has never been a better movie and who you know you spent each other up and you you all want You have firm one another's views and stay. You end up coming to a more extreme conclusion than any of you went into this conversation when the group polarization. seems to be a major feature of what's going on online. There also seems to be something along the lines of it reminds me of kind of what you see in road rage. Did

everyone is together, and yet everyone is actually alone your with a ton of people at once on the highway, but you're actually and a little bubble by yourself. So you feel like you're, being affected by the actions of others. and you are and yet you're not face to face with them, dealing with them thought about that a lot? And I actually think that the pandemic has made that worse? Yet because, in normal times you have that exact experience that you just mentioned being on the internet and feelings furtive alone on the internet, but yet seeing every one all the time and you feel it's easier to yell at someone or Duncan someone or make fun of someone, but then go and you see your friends. you got your colleagues and you're talking to them in your sort of pulled back into normal life, where that's or event, though, attitudes that you get I dont really apply, but over the last couple years we basically just been home in it having that sort of road rage experience yet absolutely, and you I mean, as people feel

you know the internet. Also has this weird effect of making you feel very close to power when in fact, your quite distant from it. So the fact that you can see the president tweeting and tweet back at the president, maybe even in her to send. You know, semi high level, Whitehouse, staffers Cetera. It seems like your sort of having a direct conversation with the people who are in control the country, but nevertheless you actually are still quite distant from the levers of power, and so that leads to I think the kind of it encourages this discharging of emotions, that's not commensurate with the situation, even though it feels like it is, and, and so all kinds of people become symbol

of of situations, laws, conflicts that then provoke this discharge of emotion, even though getting past and yelling at them, it is not going to affect anything. Adjusts AEGIS makes you feel better than the other differences are. I think offline forgiveness tends to happen between individuals. You hurt me, I forgive you he online. There are almost a lot more people involved through who weren't the target the perpetrator of the offence. What is that, due to the whole process? Yeah, I think that's really complicated and that's one of the areas where again we have a moral story that kind of needs to develop along with the technology. So one thing that people ask me a lot is well what about? How do you forgive, for instance, some one who is sort of

broadly cancelled. You didn't do anything to you, but you know you are still responsible for letting them back into public life or not right. You hold the keys in some sense because there is kind of Vienna when someone is to be or not to be on cancel that just kind of has to do with a critical mass of people deciding I'm going to laugh at their joke or not of course, there is public risks to making that choice as well for the other right right absolutely, and so you know when their weighing that out and deciding. How am I going to justify this decision or not? How am I going to tell a story about why I decided or didn't decide to forgive it's difficult when the person didn't actually injure you into which I say well it strange because cancellation is, is it not a brand new phenomenon? There's always been some sense of shining, more ostracism, but

Those typically took place and small communities of people who really knew each other, not communities of tens of thousands of people who ve never met each other, and so I tend to think you know the way to talk about. Cancellation really is more in line with the way that on a sort of prison, abolitionists and criminal justice reform activists have talked about like banning the box about reintroducing ex felons into society, even though there is there is a lot of sort of hue and cry about suggest

continuity between those things, but I think I was there is no no. I was. I was gonna ask that, because you know you, I know you you ve talked about this before, but you know, concerted ideology tends to sort of line up with an old testament view of justice. Right, like your mistakes and failures and offences, aren't societies fault there. Your fault in your responsibility. They tend to believe in capital. Punishment are lacking people out of committed crimes for years, if not life, but you know progressive tend to believe in second chances rehabilitation. We don't like over incarceration. We don't like the death penalty. We want reentry in rehabilitation programmes. Why do you think, then, that that some progressives have trouble for giving people who have apologised for,

Could he tweets or should it is? I think that's a good question. I mean I have heard all kinds of theories about this, some more inflammatory and some less. I have a philosopher added her limb, Kofi bright,

and I want to credit him with this, because it is in fact Jorge. He said you know it's hard to look at people who are completely comfortable with the reintroduction of offenders who have committed violent crime. The committed, felonies and say, look ban the box. Let them have jobs, let them have a shot it becoming a part of society. Again, they ve done their time, but dont feel the same way about pod castors, who had no shitty opinion, said shitty thing slid into dams, etc, and not think they just don't care that much about the people against whom violent crimes are committed, largely poor people, people of color, but their very offended on behalf.

of people against whom shitty twitter behaviour is committed, which are largely people like them. You know that a conclusion one could draw Prima facie. I dont know that that is precisely what what I suspect. I think that the two things are just waited differently and you know in this in the case of criminal justice reform, that's waited heavily and given serious moral consideration. We need to buckle down and be adult about this. This is tying a serious time for serious talk as to where cancellation and sort of pushing people out of social circles in denying them opportunities. It's really difficult to get anyone to sit down and talk seriously with you like an adult about those things you bring them up, new instead get a bunch of childish, lay cancel culture is not real lake, get a grip, come on.

Oh I'm! So sorry you didn't get to do your comedy cloudlike, it's very difficult to get someone to talk. You like an it. Don't work well with the argument that you here and I do think there's you know I've thought about this lot, because I've been through some validity to it. Is that those ok cancel culture isn't real or it certainly not problem on par with racism or massage any or inequality or the many other justices that world grappling with and the reason they say that is one. Not a lot of people actually get cancelled. It's a small group of people just seems like a lot, because in the news, all the time and to the people who do get hence old, tend to be older, wider, wealthier and in positions of power that have traditionally shielded them from accountability. For saying pretty shitty things are expressing pretty harmful views, What do you think about that? I mean that all sounds right, but I dont think to express our concerns about, can

oh culture that are on a par with expressing concerns about you know a general overly punitive and especially for permanently punitive culture at large. You have to stipulate that it's worse than any of our other social ills. You know there is not a zero sum nets to it. In fact, I sort of think the tendency to kind of be bitterly reproachful and hyper punitive is contiguous. With allotted with massage any with racism way it it's part of being a society that just sort of reveals human weakness and prices rank over all in and kind of has a mite makes right. Winner takes all morality about it, and, and therefore women

No, as we have traditionally been viewed as weaker as less capable. You know. That's your lot in life. You have to deal with it. Men will dominate you just accepted and also, if you fuck up you do something wrong. Then you a prisoner than you're a failure than your property of the state than your waste than your life is worthless. Right, I mean that's that kind of the mentality that ties all of these different types of oppression together, offline is brought. You buy splendid. and we all know we are what we eat, but we also know how hard it is to plan and prep each week. Is it ever splendid spoon will send you plant based gluten free, ready, made meals, delivered right to your door, saves your trip to the grocery store, as well as having to buy specialty ingredients. That can really add up. Splendid spoon believes in plant based eating is the single most affair.

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me for a limited time. That's Chile c h. I l I sleep, dotcom such cricket to take advantage of our exclusive discount and wake up refreshed every day when I think about cancer culture than the folk on. You know some individual losing their job certificates cures. One of the larger issues which could be another's of this much debated focal science paper that pull people in the question. Do you or don't you feel it's free to speak your mind as you used to in nineteen fifty four, only thirteen percent they didn't feel free to set the said they didn't feel free to speak their mind. Today, it's around forty percent and I wonder if all the rest of us, as were watching some of this, you know social, shaming, that's happening online. The effect is well. I don't want to express an opinion that is not part of the collective mine

said of my team, whether if my partisan t mother, it's my ideology, whether its whatever it may be, because you know, It's not like I'm worried about maybe getting cancelled, but I don't need a bunch of people just dumping on me on Twitter, so I'm just gonna knots. Anything, and I wonder if that ends up sort of. Making the work of democracy harder? It is worth trying to argue and debate with each other and find the best way to live peacefully together, as you pointed out earlier. I think so. I think that this sort of You know constant concern about well, let me put it this way if you're all- he's trying to way out whether its even worth, while to sort of interior opinion into the discourse right, considering the costs on. I think that something Med we all do a little bit afraid just because there are always sort of marginal costs to enter

opinion whatsoever, but when you look it again, what the dream of the internet was I bet that one day we would all be able to sort of me now enter our opinions into their discourse and be a part of this deliberative democracy with relatively low costs, and it would increase the panoply of views in Amerika. Would you know, become an even more sensitive democracy, growing ever closer to de la Nino, multitudinous views and desires of its people and ever more responsive? I mean the opposite, happened, and- and you know it seems that we become more and more polarized into clumsier and easier iterations of what still remained quite complicated and nuanced views, you ve, been on the receiving end of of quite a few angry missives from random people were mad online. Sometimes you had back. Sometimes you don't still there every day your posten

Can you talk about what your experience has been like and whether its shape your views about anger and forgiveness, I mean I, you know people often point out there tat I catch a little heat. On online- and I never want to say. yeah. You know it's totally crazy, it's it's its total bullshit. But he has any reason to have a problem here. I don't mean to stipulate that there are completely decent reasons to dislike what I have to say, and I dont begrudge anyone

that you know, but then there are people who seem to have a problem with me. Not as much politically is as personally I am in others. There are people who complain about the fact that big cookies, allied her water, what an offence I know I know, and I get that their self that's kind of annoying to see on time line and so on, but you can always just unfollow and yeah it it has shaped. My my views on in forgiveness, because I just had to find a way to deal with it and I it's an ongoing process right, so it does make your inner world kind of crappy. You know you

mind your own business. You make some cool looking cookies are a cake or something, and you post a picture of it, and people respond super pissed authorize the socks. I hate it why do you x, Y Asea, very unkind and you think to yourself, you know what the hell did. I do to you. This is a cake man. like a pig all this stuff that your projecting unto me it's not who I am. But After a while, you learn trying to convince someone that you're someone different than who they think you are it's not a worthwhile and of oh, sir, and it certainly a difficult endeavour on Twitter Turner. it's like everything that you say. To treat, you know in ended it's just so. You know that the better, thing to do, not that I always do it. I'm a subjective, my emotions, anybody a night

then I want to emphasise this, I'm not morally, better or or anything like that. I just I think clearly about this. I try to it doesn't mean that I feel any differently than any one else, I am just as subject to my own shitty emotions as anyone. I just tried to have clear thoughts about it about what's happening to me but what I try to tell myself is like look. I have days where I have completely ridiculous responses to totally normal things, because I'm going through something I just tried to log off there days where I don't even go into, you know, we ve all got our off the record friends slacks full of totally. You know totally bullshit remarks were it's just our bodies talking about oil. That is the right. That's that's the pressure valve and there are days I'm you know preparing to go bitch in my friend slack and unlike in what they don't need, my negativity right now: Lake there,

via being and they're talking about speed. Racer there, like you, know a fan casting. Whatever film they want to make the next James Bond or something and then Wanna hear me complain and I log off. I just get off and do something else with my time, but that's that's where I try to refocus my energy, because it's just that it's not productive, not helpful. Unlike You spend too long just kind of wound up in the worst things that strangers. Think about you and you at your internal climate. It's like the world inside. You becomes lake, dark and shadowy and you would just rather than not be the case. No remark about your point about you know you can often Papa. When you're, like going through some thing and one thing that I've tried to learn. You know I first I

was on twitter. When I was in the White House, but I was just looking a tweet, I wasn't tweeting myself as we were allowed to back then, when I left I sort of light, went crazy. I know I'm tweeting and I'm arguing with people on Twitter and I'm doing it all and I'm looking at all dimensions and everything, and it's what you said. First of all, I popped off way too much back in those days and then I read to me dimensions and he read like any note. The mentions where it twice pensions were like a bunch of Republicans, a crazy things about me. I've stopped caring about its more dimensions which, like people on your own team right, when your own ideology say something got by you, then than that that hurts will but more but first I tried to stop blocking my mentioned so much in second, and I started thinking. Ok, the person whose saying something nasty or being there like maybe they're, going through something to write, or maybe they just popped off? Maybe they were having a bad day? Maybe they are not a bad person whose So maybe they're just you know they just popped alphabet tweet. So why am I going to respond to that right and then keep this whole cycle going right?

you know and oftentimes I'll tell myself, lakes mainly private point. I probably I'm annoying until you ve drift I see that you are right be. I was an asshole, I'm sorry yeah shit, I mean it is probably not to sit around and see in a bunch of cakes us, unlike my bad, like I'm gonna score, still gonna postal like one saw her. He vector now. I know that I am, you know Wanna Dunham had a great cod. There is no doubt fantastic profile of her that I think ran in New York magazine. There was very, very humanizing and it was like after all these years. of people hating on her, a lot of which was just jealousy alot of which was for politics, a lot of which was his stuff. She said, said or did when she was young and, like I participated in a bit of that, and in

had this great quote where she said, I I guess I'm not for everyone. I sort of feel bad about all the times that I had given her a hard time, not that you know my private shit talking among friends, would have ever reached her. But I now think about that myself. When people have valid donks mom like Yahoo, I guess I'm not, for everyone is an interesting that the way the structure of the platform, especially to urban, also Facebook sort of forces you to try to be someone for everyone everyone is listening all the time you end up, trying to have a you either have lowest common denominator problem that will not offend anyone and is probably that interesting and not gonna do much or you Say what you really believe, or or just Be who you really are and

necessarily that's gonna pick up some people and not bit in you not gonna, be for no one's gonna, be for everyone right right now, so you know you ve written about death, shaming during the pandemic, where some media outlets will cover the deaths of people who are vaccinated with notes of shame or contempt, and then people on social media just pile on an end. That strikes me as a very on line phenomenon, because if you had and vaccinated friend or family member who died of covered. You might harbour some anger towards that person for not getting the shot but you'd, also more nome and, at the very least like you, wouldn't dragged them on twitter after they died. What do you think's or of leads to the death shaming. Yeah I mean there's so much genuine anger about people who, choose not to be vaccinated. Who who had the chance? Let's say

who are completely capable of being vaccinated who were in places where vaccines were plentiful, but who were hesitant and and refused, and now they ve passed away I think people who are in those areas of feel like, they are still under pandemic restrictions, precisely because of these people who are vaccine has despite all the evidence and despite having had you, know every opportunity to go, get vaccinated. I think they feel like they're still at risk, because there is, no relatively low vaccine coverage in some areas of the country because of these vaccine, hesitant people and So you know their mad at people who are on vaccinated, but it just becomes very clear who on vaccinated when these people pass away and then

when on vaccinated people pass away that's very attractive to media, leads to cover, because it seems like a good opportunity to sort of dual public service journalism and make the point you know now now remember in you can still die of of covert nineteen. And if you are otherwise young and healthy, etc, etc. so you should really will get backs any mean. That seems to be what the point of these these stories is: go give accented, because the it is still very dangerous, and then you get in again at this sort of shaming that kind of leaks into it, because people are angry. People, like you, said before, though I think anger and respond to that, is completely valid, emotion, sure you know it It's ok really angry at those people. I just I wonder- and I I think I was treating about at once and and

he'll, get really me that I just said just had a white satin heartbreaking that that people are dying sad, I might be angry at them and for not getting vaccinated, elegant angry them for putting all the rest of us at risk, but the death of some one is still a tragedy, no matter what am I I do, Sir worry about what it says about society that we're there were even treating a death like. That is something that we can also try to score political points on, or at least make a bloke when or at the very least you brought this up in your piece like. Is that the best way to persuade? What's our ultimate goal here right, which is to persuade on vaccinated people to get vaccinated evolve as that's our ultimate goal. So is this the best way to persuade them right? An end here is here sort of my arm through

The looking glass point that I make about injury when someone hurts you when somebody hurts you- and you are angry- here's the point- I would make the bad thing that is going to happen to you has already happened. It is always going to have happened by the time this person is dead because they did not get backson aided. They are dead, they already refused to give vaccinated. They already got Covid nineteen. They are already dead and you are angry about it, but the bad thing that was going to happen, the bad thing that they did and the bad outcome. That was good. result from it. It has already happened and is in the past and for ever and ever going forward in the history of the universe. It will already have happened. So what good does it do to be angry about it? Now people emailed me after that,

he's saying you know they would send me links to case loads. Spikes in weekly case loads. Say. Is it ok? If I The UN vaccinated dead now, and I would just email back who stopping you think they're they're dead What are they gonna do? Kick your ass like go ahead, but they're dead in there always gonna be dead. So, question before you now is what can you do and that's what makes anger over being hurt such a fucked up, emotion on some level, be as you are already screwed and you're always gonna be screwed when you retaliate after someone has hurt you, I've got news still. Screwed always gonna be screwed, that bad thing that happened to you, it will all

ways have happened to you. Another reason that I thought about this a lot in my life. I still had some violet. Things happened to me in my childhood. Those things are always going to have happened to me right and it occurred to me at some point in my adult life, no matter what I do no matter what path I take, I could settle scores. I could, I shall anything Wanna. Do I could tell everybody right always gonna have happened to me. That's just up fact right, and so the only choice I have before me now is what is next. For me, and I have some measure of control, not total control, unfortunately over where I go from here, and so for people who are angry about people who choose not to get vaccinated and the

that has in the overall pandemic, like you said, totally justified completely justified. Coming from my point of view, for me I would say the best response to that is to try to persuade people to get vaccinated, and I am not sure that making fun of dead people is in a particularly useful, all in that. In that vein, what I've done is I posted on next door and I offered to make a cake or cookies for anybody, in my area, who has not yet gotten vaccinated but is looking for a reason. I also offered to go with anybody who just wanted some company was like I'm already vaccinated, and I already got it if you just want somebody to go with you and people took me up on it. A lot of people are just scared of me. Or their lonely, or they live alone.

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business leaders how they run their organisations, make decisions and consider policy could fundamentally change entire industries and in every episode he find thoughtful, critical questions. You won't hear anywhere else followed decoder wherever you find your podcast new episodes come up every Tuesday, but I think that that impulse to persuade- and how do I best, persuade asking the question how do my best? swayed one of the reasons that I care so much about this topic of forgiveness and anger on line and what it means for all of us. It is not necessarily when you typically here they cancel culture conversation about the individuals who go through this, though I think that something to talk about and debate for sure. But again it is. You know democracy

c is based on sort of believing that each of us operates in good faith right. That's like sort of the foundation of democracy that we can have good faith debates with him one another and have disagreements and have debates and vigorously disagree, but somehow come to an agreement. And I worry that the internet, specifically social media, is telling us that maybe we don't have to persuade our major. Maybe persuasion is it possible because we are used to seeing the people were way on the other side of the spectrum from us, because they are the loudest voices and there online yelling all the time, and so we think they stand. It for everyone else and clearly they can't be persuaded. Now, maybe no one can be persuaded and maybe now it's just a power struggle and You know I don't want to. I don't to be to Pollyanna sure about this and think, like red states and blue states, we can all come together and find unity, but I think if we don't, if we don't approach a lot of these challenges and problems with the question, how do I persuade

people to see it my way or how do I do? I persuade people to compromise on. How do I persuade people to think differently and if we don't think like then put ourselves in people shoes, I dont know how this project works. Yeah I mean, I think there is a great book. About this by the Oxford professor Tourism, Asia called mere civility whose about the kind of civility you need, in a liberal democracy, to keep it functioning, which is not like the most highfalutin you no good day to you, Sir Leon friendly conduct. But you do need the type of speech that keeps a conversation going and does stop short of you. No violence and does NEO continue discourse flowing

but it doesn't just completely terminate and again, I know you run into a lot of people who will say things like yes, but when has the United States ever had actual discourse We always been like this, but the answer's no like there have been periods of greater discourse and lower polarization and is not just the cold war. You no consensus, is it's not just the media period following the world wars that we had, that there have been no periods of vigorous debate but in which there there were interesting arena in which you know you might say. History was still happening because there was lively discourse and then the democracy was still very active in and not a scholar attic feeling as it is today, and I'm not sure how you get people to aspire to that again. Part of their rights is, is the wrought in aspiration.

right I mean democracy- is reliant on this kind of imagined community of people Right America. Worse. Than anywhere else? There is a great essay on nationalism and I care about the author of off my head right now, but he says something like what Were the american people are, and they may well be a sweet, generous phenomenon like there may be nothing else like us before in history, and I think that true, but we are a nation in that way, magic ourselves to be, and so much

that imagination, imagining ourselves to be this liberal democracy is actually what causes us to hang together is what allows this to work and its it's strange to think that they just thinking that this thing is a thing, is so key to making it one, but ever was it thus, and so when people come finally give up on that and say: look there's! No point nothing's ever gonna change; it is what it is half the country is not the only to do now is is give up on fairness and process and focused on the rocks size of power when you have it and otherwise try to kind of gerrymander, pat cords, etc, etc. Use every feasible loophole and just claw clock law. Until you get caught

you know that seems like a real. You know death spiral well, and I mean I think, a lot of progressive would say, look or an existential struggled to save humanity. Here the Republican Party is extremely dangerous. We should be focusing on justice not for Agnes. Not this other. You know higher kind of civility or solidarity like it's about justice, and so we have to do that. We have to fight for an eye, and I get that that's tempting, but I just I dont know what to do with other half of the country a great like we're, not gonna. I can just go away. We re willing we kind of have to learn to deal with them. Somehow yeah I mean, I think, for those people who say look we're in an existential struggle. For the fate of humanity and were beyond the point of forgiveness and were beyond the point of process and so legitimacy in the sort of liberal them

credit machinery, and we just have to conquer the Republican Party, because there an evil existential threat. Then I just say they make different judgment than I do about where we are in history. If you think that's the case than what you have to do with the other half of the country is conquer and subdue them And we have already passed the point where we can preserve our liberal democracy, and I dont know what you want to do next. I will say that typically Liberal democracies are kind of lake radioactive material right their great when working well in contained facilities when they start to degrade and the materials that support them break down. They become very dangerous. And I don't really like generally what they degrade into on, and so I would think very carefully about wishing us to be in that

age where they are. The only thing left to do is try to conquer half the country I I sincerely sincerely hope I hear this all the time, even from rightwing relatives. In Texas as well? You know we're on the brink of a civil war red on the brink of a civil war, and I say I cannot tell you how sincerely? I hope. That's not! The case then help how awful how catastrophically an apocalyptic Lee terrible beyond beyond the worst possible thing. That would be. I sincerely hope and look? I am a democratic electoral politics. What I want to do in the short term, it is win and and hold power for sure, but I dont think that's that that those victories are going to like Republicans and bonds to those victories are gonna, be like all you got us this time. Where are you

gonna change our minds or we're gonna go away or we're not gonna we're going to bother you anymore, like that's like, as I'm gonna happen like. I still think I'm gonna fight like held to win, but there's be long term. This is not a solution and less, like you said we're gonna have like dissolve liberal democracy, which is which is a terrifying prospect no, I think that you know I want republicans- libertarians all all of those whom I disagree with, which, as you know, as you know, a Bernard brother include had chunk of the Democratic Party. I want them I want them to stay. I want them in this. I want them bad. I want the more than I want the Bernie Brows, because the Bernie brows already agree with me I want them more than anything. I want them. Agree, I want the chance to persuade them, but have that chance. I need their buying on this project right, and so you know,

any time I get an invitation to go on a right wing talk. Show I've been on Ingram. For instance, I've been on Fox a couple times met. My husband is based on Fox business. I think several times anytime, I get a chance beyond rightwing talk show. I take it bravely and not, but I do my best and I and I I don't get mad. I'm never me, and I always just do my very best to be as persuasive as I possibly can and I every time I get invited to a right wing conference, you know a Catholic, far right conference or something I take him up on it right off the bat, because I want my chance to talk to them. If even one person emails me after then says you gave me something to think about. That's a win. You know, and only they show up. I laugh at the jokes. I don't take myself totally seriously and I I do my very best to hear them out. You know it's like.

negotiation. You go with a hundred things you want and to you absolutely gotta have, and it's you know, that's that's what it is in my mind to be a part of a liberal democracy but I think more than anything you gotta want thing to hang together. Earlier this summer you wrote as a society. We have absolutely no coherent story, none whatsoever about how a person whose done wrong can a tone make amends and retain some continuity between their life. Before and after their mistake, what do you think a coherent story should sound. Like that's a good question, I think. I think there's always this sort of weird expectation that if somebody makes a mistake to talk about a specific Freddie De Boer, who is, in my opinion, a great writer. Ah

And he has written extensively about this episode publicly soy. I feel like that. There's no problem with with me mentioning it here, but Freddy had a sort of prayer practice psychotic episode in in a bipolar disorder. He was off his medication. He made a false allegations against someone in public on Twitter, which he knew was false at the time and he retracted it shortly thereafter. He.

Checked himself into a psychiatric hospital. He got on a medication regimen pretty pretty high octane medication regimen, which he has sustained ever since he stepped away from writing for a long time. He publicly stated in and has left this post up, that it was a false allegation. He who is also the time and so on and so forth, and then, after a few years, he came back to writing and when he did, I talk to him about it. A lot of his friends talk to him about it in a week, This be good for you is this what you want to do- and you know we think, all mutually agreed what had been bad for Freddy, with social media.

Writing was always good for him. Social media was bad for him. It's bad for all of us that it affects different people in different ways. It was bad for, and I have the keys to Freddy's twitter account. I have since he logged after the last time somebody else has the keys his other stuff, and so there was a an understanding that he was not coming back to social media just riding, and he has done that and we, friends and people who genuinely care about him, and I think friends of people who work who are cancelled play a really important role in a sort of mediating between the person and society, but part of it.

Pieties responds to Friday when he began, writing again was woah. While you don't get to just come back to what you were doing before and I thought well, but this is what he does right like this is his craft. This is his work right and he's good at it, and this is his identity. Does he not have some right to some continuity between what he was before. and what he is now. I think so I think of friends is being another example of the continuity people perhaps have some hope of holding to now. No one's obligated to be friends with someone it, but if, one wants to remain friends or someone who's made a mistake. I am not sure that should earn them instant social censure right. Oh, you still know that person right yeah well, maybe they're trying to change, may be there.

Changing, but they the stripping of someone's identity and a wholesale way everything they did everyone they knew, maybe even where they lived their line of work. That's a major Multi in mind with going to prison, and- and all I would suggest, is if there are. We is of mitigating harm or making a man's or suggesting a real change outside of that total stripping away. The identity I would, I would be open to that year, will seems. Like you know, a full public apology is the prerequisite to that. But then, after that, a lot of the work you're talking about again is work that happens offline with friends and family right, having a lot of I'm sure, as you did like difficult conversations with the person ride like an acre and that's the kind of

serve nuance that doesn't the can't really happened in front of everyone right up like all the time, and how do we know you ve changed its like while it something that happens every day every single day he doesn't do the things he was doing before. That's how you know there is no dramatic, reveal like a make over where you like, pull off the mask and it's a whole new you. This is something that you have to see revealed overtime and that's. Why just as its very it's very weird for so many people to be invested in an Jerry to an individual in that way, because, just like you, Were not actually going to be angry every day like the individual, who was you're probably will be yours also not going to care every day like the friend of the person will write. So and there is a lot of. I think a social media, provokes a lot of pre,

and of emotion where there is not actually that much emotional investment will have heard. You say this before toujours forgiveness. Much like a twelve step programme. Is it's a one day at a time thing every day you wake up and choose to. Forgive again, I think, that's probably the case with people who are trying to make amends for some harm that they have caused every single day. You wake up. Make the choice to be a better person than you once were. That's all we can all do. I guess that's it: question, I'm asking every guessed what favorite way to unplug from the internet, and how often do you do it allow yeah? I Did you stuff that requires me to use both of my hands because they fear hands can type or the devil's workshop. So I love begging. I make Macrones. I make sugar cookies that are serve intricately decorate

still learning to do that once it's a favorite right now and I make I may cupcakes and layer cakes and I try to do a little baking pretty much every day- that's good, but the most word a sort of unwanted and relax about literally nice Lisbon. Thank you so much for joining offline. We really appreciate it thinks lecture having on offline is a crooked media production. It's written in, stood by me, John Fabric, is produced by. and a gardener, Bernstein and Austin Fisher. Andrew Chadwick is our audio Kyle segment and Charlotte Landis sounded Junior the sharp Jordan cat and Kenny Siegel take care of our music, Tom you so Michael Martinez, Irish Schwartz, Madison, Homan and Sandy Gerard for production support into our did. we'll team Elijah Cone norm.

Conan and Amelia Monteith? Who film and share our episodes is videos every week the stakes couldn't be higher, as we had into twenty twenty two: that's why Save America is working to raise one point: five million dollars through our no offers, fund donations or good. A voter registration efforts in places were reaching new voters will be critical states like Arizona Florida, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Texas in Scots in these donations will also help organizers, getting critical headstart and building relationships and expanding their work to reach every last voter. Unless you there in a state of fucking denial, but help us get there by having to vote. Save America, Dotcom, slashed, donate