Do you look back at two thousand and seven as like the good old days of the internet and wonder what changed, if you think it's gotten worse or is that just what people or is that, just now John Englishmen and regulate. We ve got worse because I feel, like pigs have gotten worse. That's about its abolition good idea. How? Where did you get that idea? I'm John forever welcome toppling, hey everyone. My guess this week is Youtube. Hank green. for people of a certain age, and by that I mean young people Hank Green, is the internet is first you to channel wide brothers. Did you start with his brother, John is about nine hundred million views is educational. Video series called psycho and crash course have been seen. probably every high school in America and today hangers on Tik Tok or has become sort of a father figure to the APS. Teenage user base answering their science questions and dispensing bits of parental advice, but one of the most interesting parts of Hanks career has

in his longevity on the internet, people tend to burn Brighton, then burn out. Hank posted his first video back into doesn't seven fifteen years ago. now at the ripe age of forty one become one of the internets elder statesmen and somehow he stuff is still wildly popular any still very well liked. Hanks content inspires curiosity today. Viewers turned to him to learn everything, and I mean everything: hydrogen bonding, giraffe, sex, the galaxy size, frosted glass, the helium shortage, what happens to candle wax when it burns with curious? Why questions in a general way of making sense of the world hankers cemented himself as a major pillar of the way people learn online? So I want to have Hank on so he could teach me mostly about the internet, but I was also pretty curious about the whole candle wax thing. I asked him about: building community online, the by products of social media,

In the way platforms compensate make demands of their content creators, we get deep into the weeds about lessons. Hank has learned after more than a decade on the internet, both how its changed and what HOPI has, if any for its future. As always, if you have questions comments or complaints about the show feel free to email us at offline, a crooked got come here angry hey, green working offline thank you so much. You have Fancier, cricket media, your name, but when we were talking about guess for the show, but which is all about the way that the internet is shaping the way we live, and I think someone on our staff called you. The godfather of the Inn, Barnett. How do you feel about that title? just me and Al Gore they'll get together the two of us. I hear he had a shovel. I had a pickaxe and we is made modems together, you did it, you did, I mean

for people who are familiar with your work. You know your first big project was a video blog with your brother John aptly named flawed brothers that you started on Youtube all the way in ancient times to value seven. When you talk about how that came to be and what you guys were initially hoping to achieve with it. It was a very optimistic time. The internet, we didn't end long ago, and we ve seen a couple of great interesting, creative, thoughtful video price Dixon Online Video, like this sort of pre- in some ways like ways, Frank of course, who went on to run robustly video for a a and ought really interesting things. He had a thing that was just on his website where he has his own dot, a movie files, and you could go and be a part of this bizarre experiment in key creation, where there wasn't someone who was deciding what was getting made, that there wasn't a gatekeeper and that- and you know it seemed

I was twenty seven John was thirty and we were figuring out how to And it is a very exciting to us that there was this new way that media was going to happen and it fell at the time like we could be the big alike at sort of the beginning of what tv was, unlike. Wouldn't that be cool to be able to have to like have up a hand in the beginning of TEL Aviv or in the beginning of radio. And now it feels like that. That was actually underestimating the case that little bit the internet. it turns out to have been more more powerful than than recent media evolutions in and has has sort of more significant analogues, I think, powerful and an alarm messier, very noisy, very messy, because it wasn't about centralizing power was about distributing it which we like, but also we don't. Why not? Just for people who have been haven't seen your videos yet like. What's an example of an

early video that that really broke through for you guys, We do come on giraffe sex that did well. I guess you don't really believe, but how does that work? It turns out this interesting, I had a song about Harry Potter when the last Harry Potter book was coming out and and and sort of how I was making me feel and that resonated with a lot at the door. and a lot of the foundation of our audience was. You know nerdy people who were at the time Lastly, teenagers send are now old unlike our people, have to have been with it through through the hole the whole time, and you know we have people come in and over these with, you know, used that sort of that the activation energy and the values of that community to do a bunch of other stuff like we started a crowd funding platform, we started an online video conference. We started complexly, which is our educational media company that makes crash course inside show and ends and a bunch of others,

does and then like through the whole thing. I I mean I'm here fascinated by and really enthusiastic about, trying to figure out how to make the internet work for creators and and have it be a place where people can make a living and and that that economy continues to grow and more people get the opportunities to have this great job that I have. Why do you think that log brothers became so popular initially like what core did it strikes I didn't become that popular ever is. It is one thing I mean we never. We never have a big lit. Like viral video. We never had a big viral jump. It was most dealer when John was most popular with the fault in our stars. My brother, John wrote the fault in our stars for a pre listing which, which is a a book that was turned into a popular movie, and that was like. peak moment and at that point we were maybe getting three hundred thousand views, a video which is by the standards of

day a successful Youtube Channel but like certainly at no point, we ever in the top like hundred most popular you two channels, it's just that we are a long lived that if the thing that is actually weird about what what we have done so modest Emmy, like you were just talking about how you ve gone from LA brothers over the years to just do so many more projects, and I am struck by you in saying how you're trying to build community most of the conversations I've had here on offline have been about how this technology that was to connect us and bring us closer together has in many ways driven us apart, fuelled alienation and division you, but that trend and built a real community. You know whether its labour there's big con, the educational videos. You were talking about your successful charity projects. How did you they figure out how to harness the power of the internet for good? I think that

I think they remains to be seen like we're, not gonna know for a long time whether the internet is not good at not negative, like I think that you know like, and I am happy to be an example of it, but there I think lots of examples of it of of real community happening. I think there are of as an example- I think that, like it, is a really vital function or really amazing function of the internet that you eat it. It creates a space for people who who otherwise wouldn't have a community. that that day, I didn't if I wish that they share values with the Bishop experiences with, because their their town is too small for that their high school was too small for that their experiences too small for that, and so they have to sort of like limit themselves into a sort of the way of living that is common in the place where they live, and the internet prick creates an opportunity to find those social structures among people who do share your values that that you maybe dont, have geographic proximity to you, and that is

And hassock is also great for white nationalists, like that this is the thing it is, this exact same function, that is the good and the bad so. There is an idea which is very difficult to separate the good from the bad in that way, and- and I think that John and I were that in a wayward like. There is certainly a hundred thousand people in America who were really bookie and really maybe. enthusiastic in ways that was uncool in their world and in their peer group and as it always is like enthusiasm, is, for whatever reason, one of the worst things you can be when you are a teenager, and and and prevent providing a space for that, and also just you know, just writing videos that make people feel a little bit good about being a person make people feel they have a little bit of guidance if they dont have you come from

not for them and like a lot of the structures that we would normally get that from the start around as much anymore, like church used to be one a really big one, and I think that we have adequately explored the extent to which the the internet has taken on some of the functions that church once took on four people and that that is a part of the sort of that that current shift that we are experiencing a year or so many social structures and community structures and associations and all in all the other bowling alone stuff in a uniform way back. Are you will?

a big difference between internet being good and bad has to do with thick the content that you put out the content that you create yeah. You know it seems like a lot of what drives engagement today as content that makes people angrier afraid. That's not your stuff at all like how do you think about what it takes to get people engaged in what you are creating like? I think that there are lots of of normal human tendencies and, and you can lean into which ever ones you feel, or I think that we sort of lean into our curiosity, is a big one and- and I think that like there's actually evidence that shows that one of the only things that pose a wave Division and partisanship is curiosity like if you like, but why. Why would a person think that very strange to me that a person would think that, because it seems so deeply antithetical to everything?

understand about the universe. Instead of feeling like they must be a monster. If you can think that's a peculiar outcome. so here s a did they one for me that I think about a lot and I try and actually try to two cultivated myself, because I think that it hopes people in a author intake way that does not make them less happy Jonah. It's interesting! You talk about reality. I too Abbe Richards, whose Tik, Tok or dust or research and information and extremism and outside what like, how you get people to stop believing in conspiracy theories and, and she said that one one strategy or when tactic is continually to the asking them questions rights on one white. Why do you believe that? What do you think's going to happen? If you take, the vaccine

Why would there be a microchip and at what will happen? If you continue to ask those questions and sort of peak someone's curiosity, you might start unravelling the conspiracy, which is why it is so frustrating when you see powerful people intentionally grabbing an answer to one of those questions and being like hate. Remember this I've Elon Musk recently tweeted something about like how this is all about. Getting people used to government control which is like such it it. for everything right, it's like right. Why wouldn't? Why would the government want to give a bunch of people, a vaccine that obviously isn't killing a bunch of people like? What's there already your motive sphere for wanting to make you where I'm asking it's like they're, just trying to get you used to them controlling you and I'm like, while, ok all right and unlike its frustrating, to see people like having these stock answers that don't don't hold out much scrutiny, but it's like a really know how to confront that. But yet I think that, like the being curious about what

people's? Ah, you know it's others. I thought the level of lake- and I hear this allowed us like while it's this comes down to loneliness. It comes down to economic disenfranchisement and it comes down like a loss of status among certain groups and like yes, but that is it like that might be a route, but that does not like the present thing. That is actually the story that leads people in so to understand. To ask people explained to you. The story can be value because they may be able to see some inconsistency in the story I mean what about when you're, creating educational videos about biology or chemistry, the environment of I think I think you know your videos have been seen in like nearly every high school in America. Like. Are you trying to think about what will grab kids attention or what you can offer that supplements with their teacher is offering like how do you think about the educational offerings I mean it's the same like it is a difficulty that I you know

There are these things that you have to know by like lock, unlike the standardized was right and that can be really limiting anything, as can be difficult for teachers. because what you want to do is like you want to keep get kids. Asking questions and like follow the line of inquiry that they inspire and like you'd may be, You get everywhere with that, and maybe you don't but like you do get to the place where people are are trying to figure out how inquiry works and how questions, I've been answered, I'm very frustrated by the idea of teaching people that things exist and not like why they exist and how we found out that they exist.

Well, there's there's a planet since I April there were nine another's eight and I just remember that and know the names of the planets, and it's like so interesting when you ask like ok, how did we decide what a planet is? Why did that get to be a confusing thing? Lake and also when you, if, if you start to blur the lines a little bit than what does count like at leg at what point do start have to count like series which, in you know miracle large object in the asteroid belt? What at what point do you have to count tightened, which is bigger than some planet, but it's a moon and select, and There were a gas giant that was big enough, that it was doing some fusion. Would that be a planet? Or what have you just a star, even though it's acting like a planet in and fulfills all of the I use like rules for what a planet it. So, like you, ask those s n like then? The context around it like starts actually makes some sense and how to have a fun conversation. I have this like long standing joke with my Tik Tok audience, because people constantly

where does the candle wax go? Ask I have a question, but what about one of our producers, whose a big fan of yours he wrote any like the last question he rode is like. I would ask him where the candle wax Gus like arrogant and, of course, watch some of your videos about that. But where does that and a wax go ahead will end as this is like such it listing me. If you want to absolutely be a true dork, you can watch some recreations of Michael Faraday, his lectures on candles, which is something that he did, and it was a popular science lecture series that he would give to talk about what you can learn about the in the universe. Through a candle, and he like shows you. You know like sort you through the process of understanding like that gases. This is what they are. What they are made of that things can exist in different states that you can have a candle and part of the the

off gassing, partly like reaction reactions from from the combustion is water, and you can capture that water You like this was a candle that had no water in it and then it gas coming off of it and that gas turned out to be. The thing that you drink to live with though cool right and you know the other, and then I can divide it up and might have the water in the carbon dioxide, and then he goes into talking about how the process that's going on in the candle is the process that will not going on an you right now are you are basically a candle and instead of a flame Europe, you have thoughts and is like that's deep, I'm in love. I love that. So when the candle wax burns and disappears, it is going Air into the answer is yes, gases is carbon dioxide and water vapor. I really think what import about all this. Is you know what you're doing is teaching people how to think, as opposed to just sort of rising out his battle as I was hated standardized task as I was like, I can try to me

rise. All these are these facts in statistics, but they're just gonna sort of go out of my head after I'm done with the test. Yet if I actually think about things and if any figure out how to think and how to have these discussions, that Bobby more valuable for the long term, inventive, it's beyond science Barbie on whatever subject to your study cuz, you will always be solving problems every day of your life forever offline is brought you by article as the weather gets cooler I'm start thinking about a return to entertaining whatever that looks like for you, from the joyful exciting but welcoming entryway to the comfort of the beautiful, yet relax dining space articles. Newest collection invites guest to make themselves at home. Articles team of designers focuses on beautifully crafted pieces, quality materials and durable construction inspired by a variety of modern design. Aesthetics like midcentury Scandinavian industrially. In bohemian this fair prices, you save up

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we got worse or is that just would like to say that our people now no entry to no job and always meant to regulate these got worse. You feel, like things have gotten worse. That's all! That's a good idea! How? Where did you get that idea? No, your twenty is. I have talked to Alex demos who was the young, the former chief security officer, Facebook and he's like look. I think Facebook has done a lot of bad shit. I take responsibility. A lot of that, but I think a lot of what we don't like about the internet now is merely a reflection of human nature and us, and not necessarily. the internet itself, and I don't know about our light. Look. Let me hear what you think about it is about that. Specifically, I Skype this is like a weird named drop, but I was talking it was. It was an interview. I was interviewing bill gates and he and he said basically the same thing an end and it was like this donkeys platforms are trying to get people to do,

anything I'm about trying to get people to believe one thing or another, the not trying to get people to be like angry and I'm like yeah they are trying to get people to do something but other trying to get people to do whatever makes them the most money. And you oh yeah, aside from the profit motive. And I was like are so

in our society. It is, it is perfectly ok for a social media platform to do whatever they can to make the most money, because, like that's what they're supposed to do, it would not be o k for them to say what can we do to make people happy or sad or vote one way or another that we would not be ok with, like that's very, very creepy, to think that, like the social media, apart from his designed to mollify me or two in rage me or to get me to vote for Joe Biden, but it is perfectly fine for them too, to do whatever it takes to get me to be the best consumer to get me to be on the platform for the longest amount of time possible. And I think that, like we have to accept that part of the side effect of that may very well. Be that that it does result in me being enraged. The side effect of the profit motive, the side effect of trying to keep it.

on the website might be that, like the best way to do, that is to have people be unhappy and lonely and angry, and in the long term, that might actually be bad for the company, but it does if they were trying to get people to stay on the website for longer that that did seem to be the thing that was doing it and, like maybe Facebook, is paying somewhere for that now and also like. Maybe we all pay, if some price for that in the long term, because it's awful awful hard to run a company in a society that falling apart- and I am legitimately word about that- one thing I wondered about is: can you have a profitable media, company or platform that engages people buy? You know connecting them with content like you do, that makes them feel

informed inspired. Maybe they laugh rightly there's other ways to engage people write like is this about tweaking the algae. them or is it just like once you have these platforms that are seeking profit, all hope is lost, I mean. So I have to have some some hope, and so I think, a fair amount about how to have hope in the face of all this, I think is even deeper than that. I think that it may not be about the companies. It may not be about the platforms, maybe about like human communication, which is the thing that we are best at the the that makes a special its work made any of this possible like that, the house that I'm living in that the headphones I'm wearing that drugs. I take like all that I haven't chronicle It's not like a record of also the recreational drugs out of all of the double that it's the thing that makes all the stuff possible and lake

revolutions. Two communications technologies, I communications technology. Revolutions are always really disruptive like that the biggest one we have ever had was the printing press and Marty there was able to take down the catholic church by himself take on actions they take down on visa, their stole out, I'm going and the parallels or like really remarkable, if you start to look at them like the one of my favorite bits of this, is that the catholic church kept trying to respond to Martin Luther, but they would only do it in Latin because was the language of the church like you couldn't do it and that the native language, the people actually spoke, you did like Martin with it would look like translating these documents and all the different languages and the church would respond only in life, in which no one spoke and in that a little bit of similar, if some pod castors being like, I'm just wanted, think and talk and be loud and lake. questions and be curious and talked to different people and their government being like we have to

big in a way that no one can misunderstand, and that will make no one angry, and so we can say nothing and where paralyzed and we get everything wrong We'll get mad at us we're getting everything wrong in their like you to be more authoritative, and so they tried that, and I quote that turns out. You were wrong. Look a little bit wrong about one things. You need be more vague, So they try that, and I give you can't win these. You go back and forth and you have the situation where there is this, like asymmetry of like what one group is allowed to do and what the other group is allowed to do and the like The result is that, like the really like strong, powerful things that have gone- for a long long time. our losing that power and that dino, you see it in a sort of the like the disregarding of of expertise and the denigrating of like elites and

I feel it feels very reminiscent of a kind of reformation vibe, which did not turn out well short term. It's gonna Emmy Party, but I think you're talkin about as its trust right. Its trust in institutions and people have less trust in institutions like the government, like businesses like these platforms, for a variety of reason, but part of building trust is the way you communicate to people and if you are communicating in an overly officious sort of careful, cautious way, you're going to raise

red flags? And he s mind that the guy- maybe I should trust you when other people like those like those puck esters dimension, if they're they're, communicating in a quota quote much more authentic way, yeah and and people are like. Oh that person sounds like me. That risen sounds like has questions that I have now. Maybe I'll connect without personal a bit more yeah, but it's not. Of course. You also can't be often take as the government, because people will in a fiasco to hate that two. Yet it is a very difficult spot to be an especial. Once you have lost some trust, especially in a world that so I greet you both like, maybe with some trust, because you make some bad causer and you also was trust because there's a a large infrastructure of people who benefit from helping you lose trust from from enabling the loss your trust, and the question in my mind, becomes like his there. Is there like a path? I? What is the path out didn't and like? I think that there is kind of like

there is a certain amount of inoculation that we get where we get better at things, but things change so quickly. It's it's on, like you, can there's a very sort of clear pandemic analogy: wear it ok see you build up the inoculation, but then, like that, the thing changes Simple version of this is like the evolution of the Buzzfeed headline where it's like they do. use those same headlines that they used to like it? First, it was like ten things, and then it was like. You won't believe that the sixth and so like these, one's work for a little while and they working working on people because they they get used to the full you're. Not gonna, hurt me this time on Wednesday. We cannot yet exact and then another, and then another format comes up and so late

Misinformation also can function in that way where people it gets people at first and then they get a little bit inoculated against it, and then they have to sort of take another form, and you know that the hope is that, like maybe younger people who are raised in sight of this information ecosystem, that has no no expert duration will get better. At that I haven't. You haven't seen any clear evidence of that as a person who communicates with young people fairly frequently, I've seen that there is a big movement of P, of like young people, who are just really good. discerning misinformation from information. I mean you're, you're you're, a father. What do you think about, like your own, your own here hold kid like how? How are you trying to a knock you ate them against in for the Asian and how do you and just how to navigate this world

and I mean I have a one and a half year old, but I think about this all the time like how you gonna interact with all these platforms and await its well as healthy as possible. I have concerns about information, but there may be a little bit less than concerns about social interaction. Iowa concerns about that Syria, with which it which I think you know Tiktok, grew so much in the last couple years and you think like where did that time come from that, come from tv to come from Instagram? Where did it come from socialization? Did it come from like the time that kids would normally be spending in a room with each other that they haven't been doing because of the pandemic

and and also because that's a long term trend, my god, not an that's, not new kids have been spending less time with each other. Dreading as it is, is a it's scary. I dont know how big a deal it as I do the science on it but like it seems like a big deal to me. I think that kid she spent I'm with each other. I think that they knew no. I think think that that is an important part of being a person and then, as far as like what I will, how I feel about how to conduct talked him to my kid about what is what it's true and not true. I think that there are like you know: if you can invite some interrogation of reality, because kids are curious. Rock here s the kids are like haven't had been out of him yet, and that is so like like inviting those questions,

and using them to allow for models for how to engage with information and how to seek out information, how to interrogate information and then like, as my son's five so totally time for this, but I think that, as he is older, its like take on examples of previous times where people have been duped and leg if those Likud phenomena Chief like widen we believe chronology, how much of that was racism? How much of it was pop science like what were the bits of it? Amateur was just that we wanted something defined here. How much was that like it is it felt cutting edge because we're just starting to understand the brain and so was like? Well, maybe the head shape has something to do with the two and it felt modern winner with obvious it doesn't now. You know our conception of the universe is changing, but that doesn't mean that that, like nothing, means anything or nothing, matters, it's always out of context

you mention them- Tik Tok we're almost the same age I join Tiktok last year, couldn't posed a video of my life depended on it. I have no doubt that I would absolutely embarrassed myself, especially my wife, if I ever tried, you're, already a successful tik Tok or has both a huge falling on the platform? How did you manage to not come across like an old dad? Will I do that's very intentional. I think the only reason I could do it is that I have thought of many of these children, biology and chemistry, and so they like they're, like that, that biology in chemistry, and inside joke about that. For a long time and and the you know, the the expectation is that I I try and I fell sometimes because it's too much fun, but I try to use Tiktok

the way that a teacher would that, like. I don't want to do anything on this platform that a teacher wouldn't do. For example, recently there was a tik tok that was about how hot Jamie Lee Curtis's and I commented on that Tik Tok and I said they really said for you page huh, meaning, yes, they have located. Interest of mine and and then I went, and then I went back to that common and I was like, should I've done that and I looked at an earlier if I saw my chemistry teacher posting that he thought the Jimmy Liqueurs was hot on Tik Tok. How I feel about that- and I do I deleted that count so so like the b like there's, nothing like harmful about thinking generally Curtis is hot, but visa Are you trying to fit with what your idea say? I'm trot we're trying to match the expectation of the audience and trying to not like you don't want to feel like you're at lake. You you like at the wrong party. You know, and I want to be at the

party solely Eileen into that? Unlike I'm, I'm a dork, but you know I you know I ve tried to match the expectation as someone who is spent time, grinning content on Youtube and now Tik Tok like what makes Tik Tok unique compared to Youtube or other platforms. Aside from the most obvious, which is that the length of the videos? Oh god, that's nothing, that's has nothing to do with it that the differences that on on Youtube, the user makes decisions about what they want to watch and on Tik Tok you do not make a decision to Tiktok decides what you wanna watch, which is a huge shift. It is a very a big deal and an edit. It means a couple of so it means that I

it much easier for new talent to get discovered, which has great. It means that its much harder for existing people to hold onto their audiences monetize their audiences build businesses build community, because you have no guarantee that a video will be watched by your audience. If it does not enthusiastic, glee received by them, which is going to be less the case. If it is about you know, getting people fall, you uninstall grammar glue people to buy a t, shirt or something like that. So it it. It changes the dynamics hugely in it. It changes it in. It gives the platform a lot more power over both the users and the creators. So, like creators really have to do everything, they can always do it to continue to get attention and audience, and, and it no literally makes the decision about what video it was got. It's gonna show a person next, whereas on Youtube, omega decision that, like it, like my choice, might

actually be. What I want and like Tik Tok, might be giving me more what I want than what I would choose oftentimes would choose something familiar and something that few like me, whereas on Tik Tok, they might know that actually they're gonna see? Maybe I want something that isn't familiar, something that that some something new, something that- and I think I see this like directly reflected and I am very curious about this- I have no idea what at the bottom of it, but my audience on Tik Tok as majority female and my science videos and, like I hope, is the exact same signs. Video on Tik Tok it'll, be like seventy percent. Women will watch him oppose this. That video on, unlike Youtube's Tik Tok, like version which called shorts and will be eighty percent mail. Well- and I am like- is this because Youtube's apart from people like choose things that they think-

for them and like women, kind of don't feel like its content? Is for them or is it because you to business more mound? Tiktok is just more female, or is it because the play the vibe is different. I don't know, I guess so interesting to me. You don't buy from a user perspective from a creator perspective like as you're making content for Tik Tok Howdahs, knowing how the algorithm works sort of affect. What kind of content you create are you thinking about, like I gotta create something that the algorithms gonna put in front of more people like that of yet what you decide to post the thing always remember, algorithms, as they are only have human inputs, so what they do with us? Human inputs is decided by by the algorithm in a very upsetting way. Where are these thing like? To what extent do they make their decisions and also by the engineers who build them so but this alike? He when I'm making content, I have to know

If I want a video to do well, especially if I wanted you to do well, that is promoting something which would normally not too well that I need to have a really good hook. I need to have really good jokes. I need to let you know I needed to be like to go hard. The whole time and you know his stuff that I've gotten good out over the years, but it's hard and and its especially heart, like I'm, I've become friends with some take dockers who like it's there. It's their job, but its eight grind. It is very hard, been you you re We have to have every you know how to have. Everybody will be good, but you have to have enough really good videos that then you keep your audience engaged and Andy. You keep urging for your page. I imagine the length makes it even more difficult to the shutter.

Like. I always I mean I m now like it depends on what you doing. You can t really fast, although I mean it, you known a past life. I wrote speeches and I always thought that writing a short speech was harder than only a long speech, because the shorter, the content, you really just tat what you said you ve to pack it all in has to be entertaining and keep people's attention from the get go young you just have to you have to do. or with less space would ticked acts can be up to three minutes now. So that's thread wronger that so long as everyone is Asia for ever offline sponsor by better help online therapy check them out a better helped outcome, slash offline. The best way to think about their b is through a bunch of analogies. We get our cars tuned up to prevent bigger, issued down the road. You saw this when coming dinner. I didn't we get annual check ups and go to the gym to maintain physical wellness and prevent injury and disease

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America's divided and it's scary time for a lot of us, we need commentary. We can trust that entertains you along the way our America, with William Astro from lemon out a media, is available. Wherever you get your podcast, you recently posted a video on Youtube Channel. Titled so Tik Tok socks, that's about how Tik Tok pace creators and you talk about that'll, yeah, basically, platforms, the far from it specifically tend to share revenue. Somehow Facebook shares revenue with video creators. Youtube is the one the pioneer this back in two thousand eight fifty five percent of the money that from like advertisements that run on my videos I get,

Youtube cells, the ads. I just get the money there, otherwise I monetize they're all big deals but like for my company, which is being too we have fifty employees pretty big. Thank you to just Youtube. Selling ads and sharing the revenue with us is a huge part of how we do. Our business is like a third of our revenue on Tik Tok. Instead of sharing a percentage of revenue, there is a static pool of money. It's like two hundred, I'm not sure it's hundreds of millions of dollars. It was two hundred million when they launched it. I don't know if they've changed it since, then it they haven't finished and so, like everybody who gets something. I think it's based on watch diamond engagement, some some mix of stuff that money gets distributed among all creators who are inside of the programme and so like. If only one person, gotta Tik Tok view that day they would get. But that days worth

that pool of money, which means that it has a fixed Pulitzer. It's a fixed amount, which means that, as a number of views on the platform goes up, creators make less money per view, because this amount of money is the same it's also a very small amount of money. It is a small amount of money, certainly compared like Youtube problem, sent about sixteen billion dollars to creators last year. Tick talks like two hundred million and adequate Youtube's makes more money than Tik Tok also, but I think, as a percentage I I've tried to do some like back. They envelope cut calculations. I think it's a. U know, probably about ten times less than Youtube as a post judge of the revenue that they make. That's terrible, something you send the video that really stuck with me was that the U to partner programme was the way decision in our mind, media that has changed more than anything else. Why is there? I mean because how much she may for your tweets? The tweets are

there are three inside That's that was the case with you know: it's Instagram posts are freed, Facebook posts are free, but Youtube was only a little bit pressured into this like there were. There are companies that were offering creators a share of revenue but Youtube com. Did a place. That was not just about fun like there was something to get that wasn't just attention, and I think that this is important, because I think if you just want attention, you don't get the best content and you dont brush your best people in its very difficult to run a company, like works. Hard and eyes is trying to put out good information and, like fact, checking and and creating good content, it is basing it all on mug sales. You now, if basing it on or like some lake subscription conversion or something so You end up in a situation where it like that the crap is free and the good stuff costs money,

which were you where we I git nobody's ever get a damn. Bungee knows perfectly happy to have you come to the website and and not have you pay a thief and near times does not feel that way of the business, but it wouldn't work so that they are least gave a way to build businesses, and- and now there are many people on Youtube who have large companies and that you know there are lots of different ways. The people make money as on creators, but that is often the first money that they make is the young to share and that money continues to be a big part of people's revenue throughout their. Careers, so you ve been a big deal internet person on so many platforms for so many years, and I feel like you rarely if ever gettin fights or generate much controversy. You seem like a hopeful happy guy. What's your secret got, it seems that way

ah it's I was just talking about this with my wife last night, it is really hard. It's really hard not to overreact. When people are mad at you, we are human and, like we feel our own stings more than we feel the stings that we send out of people's way, and that is especially the case when we see that person, as somebody has status, they got a twitter followers. They got a lot of money leg it. You know when people come up at me, doesn't feel like their punching I feel like I'm letting punched so like the being able to react in the way where I am not imagining how I feel, but I'm imagining how they think they're making me feel which is Firstly, they have no idea that make me feel any way at all, so that's an important part of it and it took a long time to learn and like I think I was better, because we had a really slow growth

than like, suddenly having a lot of power after the day before not having any power right. I watch this would, with younger creators all the time where they don't realize that the amount of power that they have has changed dramatically in the course of a couple of months and how good like. Why would they think that so there's bar? of it. There's a piece of it. It's like you, gotta stay in your line. You gotta know when you don't know what you're talking about. no, not every opinion has to be. That is very true, I sat so many that I dont say due to its. Nor do you have to comment on every development, but happens in the world yet airy twitter. There's more than any other platform, but it's like you know it took to me as someone who worked in politics, something happens and everyone feels like their politician has to like relief their public statement. On I mean it happens in a sort of nine way when someone famous dies- and everyone like gives me

in Memoriam on Twitter? You know what I'm just oftentimes IDA took as unlike who the fuck cares. What I have to say about this uses I dont have and issue a statement on everything that happens in the world and mild? Sometimes it's just gonna get you in trouble. Yes, and it's easy is it and I know what's going on in its also easy to have people say why haven't you said anything about this and then you come out here is my statement on Palestine. I want somebody here believe gripped, don't like you'd I don't need to know of Logan Pulse thoughts on Palestine, like they don't even know. Inevitably I let my whole life without having to actually gets that. I think that site, like some people, think that their aim is everywhere, but I think that it's important to like understand that leg, you can have passionate opinions even that debt are not to be part of the authenticity that you're that that, like a part of your new no public,

thing and and the other like the thing that was started. My life about- is that, like it's pretty extreme thing to be a public person right now, and it requires a lot of expertise and have had time to develop that expertise, and- and I also have a better Experience of it because I'm a white guy- and I also have a bitter experience of it because I like or or I am- tat, sort of like see it in a different context, because I have so much security in other portions of my life I got my identity is diverse.

So fine- and I can imagine a world where this goes away and it's bad and like I like it's, a big, is a terrible process, but at the end of it I have a lot of things that I value a lot, and I think, are you know about about myself in my life and that I think that's really important for people to do have job like minded to continue to try and diversify their identity and not go all in on this one thing, and if it feels like that being threatened, you get really really defensive really fast, and you know the there. There is also like it to be honest, like you have to be engaged with what people are freaking out about lately. You have to like. No, what things you might say that might get you in trouble and like it that changes

Changed dramatically since two thousand seven I've taken videos down that used words that, like I, didn't think that they were bad, that that of words back in the day but, like have become, you know, understood to be freely like super harmful and, like I didn't know that, and I think that there is there. It is important to recognise that when you are a person who benefits from your reputation that when some harm comes to your reputation, that is not the end of your career that has not someone trying to cancel you or hurt you. It is eight, it is some harm that has come to your reputation. It's like, I prefer no sport star who has an angle injury. It's like this is a thing that maybe you should have prepared for better or maybe you should have made a better decision in the moment, but you have offered an injury and like that's not the end of everything and some There are career, ending injuries and people go on and they have lives that are outside of that sport, and that is ok and like it does not.

Fun is very sad when that that capital is very sad for that person right and like having to have some harm come to your career because he made a misstep socks but like it happens, and I try and think of it in that way, where, like reputational harm has come to me, will continue to come to me like not. Everybody is gonna, love me and, and try and sort of like when my car loses a little bit a grip. It's not like don't panic, just tryin clinical and had taken as an opportunity to learn and grow on that too. I think what you said about having an identity, that's just outside of. What you do online is important, but that was important. Point like one thing that happens with public people online is like being on the internet is up is a very public performance. That is just your on all the time, and this isn't just like prominent people now. All of us that anticipate this are on all the time. Do you ever get tired of being

on all the time and like how closer the are, the public and private versions of Hank Green. It's it's like everything that I that is on the internet is me, but not everything. me as on the internet and- and I think that that's pretty important it's in the early times. That was not something I maintained and that now it is- and I have a kid now- I've got like you know, there's a horse of that kind of stuff that I, feel like keeping private many minutes, also like back when it was just like you know a few thousand nerds and there was- I didn't, have like a company that I am to dry and represent as well as you know, myself and said you know it's it's a delicate balance

but I think that you know and also at something that I think every everybody has to decide for themselves. Last question: I ask all our guests: what's your favorite way to unplug and how off and you get to do it walking with my wife,

And- and maybe my son, if he's not being a pill about it on the answer I would like to have is hanging out with groups of friends, but I haven't been doing a very much and I think it's not just the pandemic. I think it's also that, like I'm very on line and I've gotten used to a feeling, weird about hanging out with a bunch of people- and I need I feel like it might be time for me to start getting used to it again. I think it took the pandemic for me to realise how much I missed hanging out with drops of people as opposed to just being among people, but all of us being on our phones, the all the time, and I think I took it for granted and then, when the pandemic. Here I was like, while I really

that I really miss the actual in person, social connection, so hankering. Thank you. So much for joining offline really appreciate it yeah. Thank you. Thanks for doing this has been. I've have listened every episode, it's really real. Take. Thank you. Thank you. While I was like early, this exists will complaining about the internet that that's my bag would be offline. Is crooked media production it's written in her stood by me, John favour its produced by Andy Gardner Bernstein and Austin Fisher Andrew Chat, is- are audio editor Kyle Segment and Charlotte Landis sounded neared the show, Jordan CATS and any single, take care of our music to tell you so Maneater, Michael Martinez, Irish Schwartz, Madison, Homan and Sandy Gerard for production support into our we'll team. Elijah cone normal code

and Amelia Monteith, who film and share our episodes, is videos every week. Is it just me, or do you sometimes wish the news were more fun? Yes, cathartic or just go. I'm Aaron Ryan political commentator, Kommeni, writer and host of crooked media's hysteria and I'm Alyssum astronomical former White House, deputy chief of staff or President Obama and errands caused. We cover everything from reproductive rights to shit. We feel petty about and break down the political news of the week, plus the stories that affect women

Listen do hysteria wherever you listen Depart CAS new episode, strap every Thursday or we ever gonna get to universal health care in America. How did jewels jumpstart, a new epidemic of teen smoking and speaking of epidemics, will spend them ever and I'm doctor Abdul, safe and each week on American affected, I speak with doctors, scientists in poultry meat, shaping the future of health in society. Together we decide how scientific discoveries, trillion dollar policy tool, friends or training to work with them. For us new episode of american second drop, everything was an involve wherever.