Every week for fifteen years, three friends have questioned, debated and puzzled over the most important political, legal and cultural questions of our age through different jobs, different cities, indifferent administrations. These journalists who model to show in their hallway conversations, have kept up the conversation defending their views, renouncing others in coming to new beliefs. They are the hosts of Slates political gab, FEST, Emily Babylon of the New York Times magazine CBS John Dickerson, in David plots of city Cast Stephen Cold. Has said the gap, as is like a conversation among for smart friends. Were you are the fourth love gap fast? Listen to it all the time been too alive. Show there's fantastic check out slates political gap as they have new episode every Thursday you can find a fast wherever you get your podcast part of it is just not fucking going on the internet, where all the time

Can everyone just shut the fuck up about everything? However, like one second rate like I must issue my statement on this new development, it's, like I Jeremy Smith, have decided to make my endorsement. Like Archie one three, I'm John forever welcomes off either our guest this week is Peter Handy and he's here to talk about what the internet has done to journalism- Peters, a good friend of mine. Started out as a political reporter at CNN, and now hosts good. Like America, a shovel using politics on Snapchat that reaches six million people per episode. Yes, I found a new media, startup called puck or he writes a column called the powers that be most of you know that I have been an amateur media critic for a long time. Now it's one of the reasons we started cricket in the first place

but even though I spend way too much time, yelling about bad headlines and annoying stories, I dont actually think that individual journalists Editors are the main reason. So many people don't trust the media anymore. I think there are a lot of destructive incentives and media right now, some of them are financial, and a lot of them have to do with the fact that most journalism now happens online. I think this pushes journalists to prioritize hot takes over actual reporting. I think it put them to focus on speed and brevity over accuracy and contacts in Sicily. Also an incentive to keep the outrage meter at an eleven? We also lose a sense of proportion. How about this? problem. How much does it really matter? What can be done about it? Peter and I get into all of them we talk about the internet has transformed the media industry. How that's affected the way reporters do their jobs. Why twitter is especially bad for journalism, which Peter actually wrote a ninety five page paper on and what a health.

A sustainable model of journalism, might look like it's a cunt station. The two of us have had before and one that could have gone on for hours, which is why this is actually a two part interview that we ve condensed into one episode. As always, if you have questions comments or complaints about the show feel free to email us at offline cricket, dotcom, here's p him. So I am doing this show about the many ways that the internet is breaking our brains and a big part of that is what the internet has done to journalism, and I thought you would be perfect as a journalist to talk about this, because you are a lot less defensive and and more reflective in your critique about the state of the media than many of your colleagues. I think that's like how we started to become friends. Maybe think it probably is. But here I mean I think, that a lot of journalists are pretty thin. Skinned dont, admit mistakes,

that contributes to to a lack of atrocity of them. Here, no, I'm plenty more reflective, they just won't say publicly. You know when they make a mistake or when their critical of their colleagues egg is. My first question is: why did you want to be a journalists in the first place, get mean that that's I love starting their because my parents were journalists. They worked in local tv news in Washington DC, that's where they met my dad, actually queued Spear Agnew. Anyone on television to resign bonus, I grew up with newspapers on the table. Watching tv news, my parents, friends, were in television news. I work for the high school paper. College paper went to journalism school and took on the fortune out student loans,

and so, despite the fact that I work at snapshot, which you know, maybe a lot of people listening to this don't use. I am also kind of a curmudgeon about journalism like a care and park. As I put in a lot of hard work, I care about the kind old school values that go into journalism, making extra phone call being humble listening doing the research. You know letting the facts speak for themselves and honestly believe in the kind of false notion of objectivity that

We talk a lot about a lot on the pod. I do believe in fairness, the best version of it at least you started CNN at a time when the internet and social media Wordpress technologies, the journalists were starting to cover, but we're technologies. There were actually transforming the media industry, starting with the business model of journalism. Can you talk about what that transformation looked like to you and what you think that has done to the goal of journalism? Because look one thing I think we, both do is wait. We can complain about individual reporters, but really, I think we both believe this is a systemic issue and that a lot of these individual reporters might be operating in good faith. But just there is an incentive structure set up by the fact that the economics of this industry have been so fucked up that leads to bad journalism So when I started working in professional journalism, that was two thousand five

The internet, as you mentioned, was new ash. The original sin, though, of the collapse of the journalism business as it as an economy was the decision to give away content for free most mainstream news organisations, newspapers, television, radio, local news, starting its point in the early twentieth century up made the decision to pay for their businesses based on advertising. Remember Craigslist crystal around you Craig. Craig founded a list and on Craigslist you could put ads for I'm selling a bed. I would like to meet someone cause, I'm lonely personal whatever that too, those those kinds of listings originally where the bread and butter of news organisations they made newspapers,

rich here in LOS Angeles, to allay times, became a hugely powerful, wealthy institution backwards with century, because real estate adds were white drove the revenue for that paper, and so when the internet came along and then social media later you know all of that news that we read every day that which is flying around the internet for free, because the decision makers at originally a lot of these news organisations thought of the internet as a second tier property as the internet, so speedy became bigger than in the fabric of our daily lives. It became an expectation on the consumer side that I could click on the washed imposed or the Richmond Times Dispatch, or you know any ex local newspaper and get that for free and most of the audience eventually migrated to the digital side of things. Abandoning television abandoning print to substantial degree

and so these news organisations were left with holy shit. Harris has to pay for all of these reporters who are covering you know: courts on the local side, crime, whether but also like prestige, things like politics, overseas issues, conflicts and in different countries, and they started to have to make some day. Choices and they lost the ad revenue to first places like Craigslist, and and ultimately places like Facebook and go well down the road that says that guy's my say. So they really started to bleed out when facebooking Google, basically siphoned every time of advertising away from news organisations and media companies that used to depend on it for revenue, so that you know he's really lead to where we are today. Now there are businesses at our retrenching and decided to go fully subscription and that smart, that's a weight of big revenue and good revenue

And so I imagine that one effect that has that now, if you. or a news organization, a media organization- you are in a competition for audience, because, even if you, even if you a subscription model. Even if you can sustain your business that way, you're still looking to get as many customers as possible, and you have a lot more competition cause, there's a lot more media properties out their online. What does that competition or eyeballs due to the practice of journalism, the one it does. What does two main things that I think about a lot, and one is more on the business side, when you log on to see and under com- and you see a we roll add for a pharmaceutical and tons display, adds all over the website and some website to see pop up ads. Those are big media companies still clinging that advertising model in anyway, if you go all the way down to those pages, you see something called outbreak,

and it's all of these, like weird pictures of like cleavage, My skin lesions, like that kind of stuff advertising, weird things it'll, take you to another rabbit all the internet, like mainstreaming companies to use that and put on their website and what it is. I dont go to those websites exactly they're, not fun, to read their, not find the? U user experience the EU acts as we say intact, even on your phone yeah is cluttered and clog, and so on Thursday that element of it, which has a lot of these relations, still depend on advertising tv news pacifically depends a lot and advertising the corollary to that which I think you're getting at is the individual behaviour of newsrooms and journalists, and attention is what matters the attention economy and so traditionally than the idea. hallowed ivory tower Journalism, analysed in an editor, would get in the room and make the decisions about the front page every day, and it was less about necessarily what's gonna

papers and more about what's good for the american public. Now that that's a mythology of one always want to sell papers. But there was a kind of steam in the idea of editors and and newspaper journalists, making grand decisions about what the american public needed, rather than wanted. Now it's the opposite and most ways give people what they want, and that is I mean: there's not great journalism being created all over the place. It's just that substantive journalism that has like six by lines takes months of investigation and calls and lawyers. Those p of MIDI Journalism that, when awards hit twitter, they hit the internet with equal weight to like here or twenty one q, corbies or ah here look at this video of trumps hair. Flying back on his head ass. He walks up air force One or like check out this

of common Harris wearing airforce ones or a piece of bad reporting that gets of attention all the things they get attention. Those are the to go viral, and so I do think that in some ways are consciously or not, that is impacted the behaviors on it. the visual level of journalists and editors to create things that get attention, because more eyeballs more clicks equals more revenue. If you have made the decision that you are going to be a purely advertising driven business, but also your right on the subscription side, I mean than your times is constantly creating court on coke content

don't get them to add subscribers to so it's just you know, because we are on our phones all the time time, every and not just sitting down in the morning to read the paper and watch the six thirty news. Every night people are on their screens all the time we like media companies are trying to fill void if you're, a journalist, trying to figure out what or an editor trying to figure out what the audience wants. How do you go about doing that wealth? Like what what? What that, once the decision making process like when you thinking like I kind of need some clicks on this. Yet so that's a good question? It's not it's! I would even call it not an exact science because it was never science in the first place, it's more it still kind of a very gut driven editorial philosophy. You know it CNN I've, you see they look at ratings and compare you know. How did this story do versus the story in the previous five minutes versus the story? The previous five days or the previous five months ago, they

the ratings get released. All the time you now also when I worked cnn- and this is true of every tv news organization- the Bureau Chiefs, the president network- they have other tv channels on in their office right. So if work. It abc NEWS, you're, watching CNN Msnbc, Fox you're, watching NBC you're watching CBS and, if you're the cable shells and particularly respond to what the other person's doing I remember being of suits justice. This collective conventional wisdom is forming and journalists at all different media outlets or all seeing what each others doing their Alec have coalescing around the same stories. Correct and obviously too,

as a house just now, Melians time, that's what amateur into the equation which what? What is that due to the whole equation yet and its also funny, because back in two thousand and six, when Twitter launched people in D C, where I was working a lot most people and get it like most things. Deasey is like the last place to figure stuff out, like TC was the last city to get rid of blackberries and traded trade them in for Iphone that carried on even through, like two thousand and eight slash, two thousand and nine, and then finally, there was a pulling side of my the deepest darkest recesses of my brain right now. Just remember this, but I think there was a MIKE Allen edition of Playbook one morning that just said like Twitter as a raw and like they quoted like Gloria Border and David Gregory and like Todd enabling like this is fun. I'm doing it and I do think there was a fun

and useful element to it. At the time. One of the first big scoops I got was in two thousand and nine Mark Sandford, who was then the governor of South Carolina famously disappeared and was supposedly hiking Clayton Trail when in reality he was often Argentina visiting his lover, carrying on an affair and it was a huge global story. Every descended on South Carolina covered from all over the world of total zoo, because I have lived in South Carolina on reporting their privacy and a lot of good sources, and I broke the news that Mark Sanford's car was not his official government car was parked at the airport, which suggested he wasn't on that which trail I did that, though, by just tweeting it and I'm a british tweeting, a bunch of thrift, incremental scoops round that story and got like a following

pretty quickly and that to me was useful for me and my personal brand, which is very important to journalists now and dead. Allow me there's plenty of other reporters, my age and younger, who have use twitter to elevate their careers in a positive way, because it's been able to you no break this glass ceiling, that used to only be for people who climb ladder and ended up on the Sunday shows all the in two thousand and nine. You had a lot of younger importers who embracing these platforms and breaking news and hustling and radical stuff, and you could accumulative following and then because I was able to do that. Cinemas, like us, kids, like of it, was a pretty good reporter lick, let's put em on tv and that sort of an avenue the didn't really exist before, for a lot of journalists and so that's a positive aspect of twitter. You know this is before not the password too far, but this is before a lot of these platforms were just swallowed by

hate speech and drive formation and all that stuff, so there is still a kind of like a fine element to it. In that two thousand nine twenty two, an era where, if you were a political junkie, you could come to twitter and get all kinds of stuff Polling School campaign manager fired and at the time it felt like a very central place to be a few of the Washington offline. His brow

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did Twitter killed the boys on the bus. The boys in the bus, referring to the boys on bus was a famous work of journalism about that came out after the nineteen. Seventy two presidential campaign by Timothy Kraus was ready for rolling stone and basically he turned you know his eyeballs in his pan on the travelling press corps, the people who cover politics and wrote a book about you know how politics kicks covered, how the sausages me, You know again, this is before the internet is when people are falling stories. Over pay phones poses a bunch of old white guys like eyes, and they get to be the gatekeepers for the whole, all the cover exactly like I it's not something to like celebre.

Not at all, and I think a lot of younger people think that that older journalist hold up the boys on the buses like this wonderful time, and I wish we could go back. That's not the point the book makes you know they are off the record with politicians there carousing politicians there sexist like they sleep in their alcoholics whatever and so Twitter, when I say, did twitter kill the boys in the bus. When I wrote that I was doing a shore unseen fellowship at Harvard which focuses on press and politics, this effort went off campaign. I had covered that and during the course that campaign it became apparent talking to my friends who Republicans and Democrats and reporters that Twitter was justice, obsession that as watch as the Obama campaign and the Romney campaign tried to shape narratives and traditional ways, the front page of the times in the posts, the getting in the front block of the today show that stuff that matter. In two thousand and eight x,

Well, the assignment s for all politics was just twitter and has never it has been ever since, and I don't want to say that it ruined journalism, because, again, their good aspects, the twitter, but it It really narrow the focus on just process things on optics. The Romney campaign was apoplectic every day because their campaign M beds were tweeting about things like Romney's genes, or you know they did. A I remember the Van at Ford Field in Detroit forget about what and like it was there like in the field, but like the stadium, empty and so all the ambassadors tweeting pictures of empty state in which they must first be a rally. It was just like an event in Ford Field, and so things like that made the Romney campaign furious, remember talking to Matt Roads, who was the campaign manager for Romney? When I was writing this pay,

fur, and he cited a famous quote from Roger Ales, who use New Fox NEWS used to work in politics and ales. Had this theory about politics called the orchestra pit theory of politics, which is that on on a stage have to political candidates, and one of them proposed solution to Middle EAST, and the other one falls in the orchestra pit. What do you think the media's gonna cover, obviously the guy falling into the orchestra pet and like that's basically, what twitter is it? Is it fetish sizes what's happening right now at is obsessed with scandal and outrage and orders. Individual reporters you know are, and of eyes, weather they are doing it intentionally or not to get those retreat,

and you know you will get those retreats when you write stories that our primed, for you know, sharing and outrage, and not the deeply reported piece about the climate legislation. That's moving Senate Committee and its it creates a sort of a collective wisdom of its own and and serve a hive. Mind like my experience on the other side of that coin. Twelve, as I can remember, being at that first presidential debate between Obama and Romney, and it was the first you know we had done the debates in two dozen aids. I experienced a present debates, but in twenty twelve, like Brok, Obama, ten minutes into the debate is in doing that. While we know that from backstage, we can see that we use will you wouldn't be able to tell if the rest of the country thinks that yet her had? If journalists think that or anyone else thinks that, because people would you'd hope, watch and make up their own minds, but on Twitter

serve Freaking out, and journalists forget about like outbreak of Amazon, doing good and the conventional wisdom hardened in about ten minutes. To the debate that it was that you done something that he was having a horrible debate. I think been Psmith, put up a story on Buzzfeed before the debate was even over. That said, Brok Obama bomb this debate and it was our first experience with ok, the entire collective wisdom or the conventional wisdom from the Washington press corps was just hardened within ten it's a presidential debate and there's nothing. We can do to shape that now, cracked and a kind of killed off the notion of a spinner map the debate because like when the when the seeds, it was hard end in ten minutes. There's kind of no point for her Axelrod or bluff to come in the spinnerets spin reporters when they have already been spun out by what their colleagues have been saying on Twitter. So twitter and social media and the internet general in

devise for journalists. Speed brevity takes over reporting prediction like what is that, due to you know, you're a journalist was just trying to report the news, What does that, due to that practice of journalists and makes its lop ear it? It perverts the ideal of what journalism was supposed to be, at least as I was taught it, and my pair so journalists were taught it. What, when? What was that or what is that hard work? Reese search patients from strain playing the long game much of this story might take a while I've gotta dig into it journalism in part because of revenue issues can't find a lot of journalists

traveling anymore, and so when I was getting into it. I was travelling around the country. A lot was very lucky for that and Fortunately, today, a lotta journalist don't have the ability to get on the road and expensive flight and a hotel oh and travel and meet people spend time and often like some of the great writing out. Their people are paying for their own pockets, and that means a lot of reporters writing from their debts, which means or looking at twitter, your texting people on. I message you are making phone call. but maybe it not in any way the you'll see a line and a lot of news stories that are about controversy or gaff, and I think the listeners recognize it also, a so and so did not immediately respond to requests for comment. So you know back when I was in journalism school, not that journalism schools the best, but you know sometimes they taught you. You couldn't published something entirely

response or yet await an awful ITALY said away to day, maybe six hours you know now, the incentive, as you mentioned, is published this fast. So we have it first and we get. The cliff that doesn't mean that's not you know sometimes article rigorous, but very often they're, not, and so I dont again, I dont want to be like priest the about how journalism used to be compared to wear does now like media always changes and as a consequence of formats change, but you know I you know I'm grateful in either retrieving CNN. I've had editors and bosses who have pushing it. If you like, hey, like you, need one more source on us, Hale at slits, let's standards and this is tackling this. We need a lawyer, look over it and The rapporteur would be pulling my hair out tonight. We gotta published we gotta publish now at an older with little more hindsight, I'm just a glad that you know I had others like that.

think a lot of younger journalists are coming into the business right. How, with those sort of values that I and my the people, it taught me how to do that stuff cared about. That's the thing. I remember a lot from two thousand eight. When I was plain or at a rally. I'd be next to John King, who you know came up working at the Associated Press and I think Providence and the very beginning. You know he like covered state. How stuff you know, Adam Smith, the Saint Peter Times in Florida. Ah, there were over reporters who had done the work and had a career and had perspective and had sources. There were reporters and local markets who understood the texture and the people that mattered in these markets by twenty twelve and especially by today, you know, partly because local news is withering. You just reporters. Don't often have those touch points to get there

kind of perspective. Because of the internet. You know you can you can graduate from Coronel go straight to Buzzfeed, go to political or the New York Times, and you ve never never to local news, never tire of voter. Never done right. I mean and again This is where I sound like a journalism curmudgeon, even though I work at snapshot. I do think that ten years ago, if you spent some time not that local news is perfect or great, you spent some time in a local market either in television or prince Slash did it all. It just gave you some cultural and political perspective. That is not obvious and Washington any today, one in five newsroom jobs are in York, LOS Angeles or new.

has become a object of you, know: Centre left, college, educated urban, culture which are we should say by the way you know with this very common saying Twitter is not real life right and the reason peoples a twitter is not real. Life is what they mean as early in the best sense of of this debate. It means that the views reflected on Twitter are not necessarily. The views not just the like American Electric, even just the democratic electorate, and that's because, like the top ten percent of people on Twitter, who do all the tweeting are disproportionately younger, wealthier, more educated, wider because Twitter is the media's assignment editor and because Twitter contains the views of people that don't represent the views of most Americans. There is a disconnect between the conversation, the view that are happening on twitter and that happen the media with the rest of the country. Right yet note what I mean: that's, why

One per cent correct. There is a book that I've been reading called news for the rich white and blue written by Nicky Usher. Who is a echoed the risk of Illinois, but she writes somewhat critically about the news industry in some the same ways were talking about and when she says rich white and blue she's. Talking about blue news is consumed. Now a lot by people on the left and not the right a white and that newsrooms are though more diverse than they were five ten years ago, still mostly white people and to this conversation about business are rich in that doesn't mean wealthy wealthy. But news now has moved behind pay walls or a subscription, that's proving to be the best business model

Now that the ad model has collapsed, the people who are willing to pay for news is really not that much. I mean obviously than your times is a great success story in that sense, but you know, who, in you know, young Tom, you know, was willing to pay for news like youngsters vindicate or not enough, apparently, because young stump indicator is dead and you know pay walls, aren't going to keep local news. loved and so yeah I mean the news. Is is feels like a lot of people to spinach and homework patents. People liked it when it was free. it was easy and now that news has put itself behind a pay while in a lot of sense, is p petitions and bad actors are willing to flood the zone with information. That's free, and fine and entertaining

but also in many cases, malevolent dangerous and leads to people rushing the capital and you know, killing capital. Hopefully, officers ungenerous yeah I mean I was going to ask that tools like how does a journalist, or a news outlets compete with both propagandists who are, operating in bad faith and sort of amateur journalists on Twitter who made operating in good faith right. But it's like how do you compete against all these other new sources at a time when trust in journalism is at its lowest level and there's just just an intern

full of garbage- and you know this is a hobbyhorse of mine, but format becomes incredibly important. The creators of news people, the media business people in journalism, need to be more thoughtful about what kinds of formats can reach people and compel them and compete with all of the entertainment. That's out there. What are some examples of that podcast great example. The daily from the New York Times is a journalism object where all of the constituent peace, journalism, the fact checking the interviews, the research are sort of reorganized, Likud deconstructed guacamole, or something you'd order at a restaurant in print it in a new way that is portable. That is entertaining that feels dramatic, but is still serious. My stature

show or a snapshot show that NBC News does. It is fast into the point and efficient and you can share with your friends. You can watch it whenever you want but it still credible and doesn't abandoned all the values of tourism. What I'm trying to say is that, like you, can create news in a way that competes with the entire menu of options you have out there on Netflix Hulu, twitch crooked. You know the bonds, you know, and it doesn't have to be outrageous and stupid. You have done down issues have to realise that the audience, is really important. You have to consider their hi barbaric, permitting meeting people where they get their attention spans Anne and what they want to and I'm sorry alot of people aren't really gonna want, sit down even news consumers. Don't we had passed the first couple, paragraphs of a story, so what

conversations that you have with Snapchat. That made you think. Ok, this is a place where I can actually bring some serious journalism into attack platform that is reaching millions of mostly younger people so to day. Snapchat has almost three hundred million daily active users, which is for your listeners, substantially more than twitter, which dominates the washing commerce and we reached ninety percent of thirteen thirty four year olds in this and the United States, which is more than Instagram Facebook and faced with passenger combine and No, it wasn't like that when I first saw my conversations with Evans Vigo, the founder of Snapchat, about going to work there. But the potential is there and, more importantly, for my earliest conversations with him from various executives of the company work on the content side. This is twenty fourteen twenty, fifteen. It was clear that they saw where social media was going. These open platforms that we're dead

by algorithms were again, does it, but before right before the fake news, sort of disinformation, stuff popped in the mainstream press and twenty fifteen, whatever but it was clear that a different set of values around how a platform should operate the architecture of it and before they got to be However, I very much got the sense that even in the company wanted to get ahead of some of the problems around fake and misleading content around privacy safety- and I just liked the way they talked about news when I came over there because they said you have a huge audience here of young people and those very young people are not watching tv news. Necessarily they're, not subscribing to newspapers have more obviously, but that is a matter not smart. Is their spending their time in different places, and we want to be able to create a safe news environment. For

this generation that using snapshot offline is broadly by Brooklyn. It zipper who not us. We had to take something with us from twenty twenty. It will be our commitment. chill and new ones where from Brooklyn and is just the dress code for the occasion zone out unplug or get comfy in turn that camera on and tease and tanks that deserve a chefs kiss emerging review, and we have to address cuts now swap hands and wedding at that, and they all there s good what I've seen it Brooklyn and has been listening to what we all need most in their responded with Ultra Humphrey Lounge, where at a fair price, this lunge, whereas classic cuts in no zippers for limitless comfort that you can pull off in real life sea can lodge worrying cosiness all day, bonus points Brooklyn and offers Bundy, the rules on lounge, where you can get more comfort for less money. We love Brooklyn and

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that a platform like Snapchat has such a bigger audience user base than twitter handles disinformation pretty well compared to other platform spread. All these things, the the cable news voice and twitter as the assignment editor, still influence most The journalism and most of the political conversation that we have in this country today does not drive you fucking nuts we'll go to all these the arena. We hope this conversation about Twitter. All the time errands like WWW Twitter is actually have been many users again compared to a lot of other, forms an yet twitter is this platform that dictates most of the national conversation. We hasn't shaped politics to such an extent that, like

we can't get away from it. Yet I mean it's. It is infuriating. I think one of the things that made me a better journalist, better political journalists, to be honest, is simply leaving Washington because you start to allies not that I live in? I live in LOS Angeles at all. I don't live in Cincinnati, you know like, but you started, is that people early go about their everyday lives, not spending all day on Twitter, not reading politico, not watching, cable news all day long, and once you start to like experience that every single day you know you start to pay a little bit attention to that stuff, and then you started like in traumas. Think, like a normal voter, you know develop, you're missing anything when you not paying attention to this do you feel it if you're not as plugged into the conversation on Twitter than somehow it's making your job as a journalist tougher more challenging? No,

used to think that even six months ago- and I have been more deliberate, I think since the election, and managing my time on it. I put a time limit of fifty minutes a day. What you can do I found you do on Twitter on Twitter and it that word Really behind my life in a big way I do that, I'm hoping good up and get ok, but I think it was the beginning, tough. I think the beginning. What have been tat yeah, I wanna. If Emily, listening. You know what you think about this. b

it was a little bit you do. You do sometimes feel like you're missing something. There are moments, for example, of January Sixth, where you're watching the tv and you like big moments. It feels important as a political journalist herb to someone isn't supposed to be on there. You know bad stuff spreads, but you also see good information and good reporting, and you clean incredible insight to things like that, because camera phones add so many different perspectives to real time events. Another reason I joined Snapchat because I want has our camera out and they're, providing great pictures and images that we can use for, for our stories. So you know, but I my experience is necessarily what will work for everybody. I have just been more deliberate about the news because- do you think news can be an addiction for people in an unhealthy way, as this is certainly true, tromp era?

and I was no out of and pr you know I subscribe to early times. I read that when I can not that I do every and then you know I go on twitter. A few minutes a day sometimes I blow through that fifteen minute time limit and spend all day on it, but I being on their this allows me to read more. I feel like my brain works little better. I've heard One of the reasons Snapchat is different than a lot of other platforms. Is it's a walled garden? This is too You said this phrase to me and I nodded and pretended that I knew I wanted to send and smart, but I have no idea what that means. What can you talk about? That'll, but yeah? I mean cricket media. while garden, you guys make editorial decisions about what shows you will produce, who your hosts are going to be, and sometimes you reject pitches. For those,

because not right fit. When we launched discover, which is our content platform, we started small with trusted notches news, but yes, pen, calmly central, like just media companies that were interested in creating new formats for the generation that using Snapchat, and so you know when it comes to news the wash imposes on Sacha, the washing as on snapshot. Right part is not an snapshot. You know a lot about curative yet obscuration, you create a walled, God and of safe and credible continent, and you said earlier, we have a zero tolerance policy for disinformation for hate speech again Snapchat before any other big platform, we last summer down Rank Donald Trump feed during the the height of the protests in the

and the end the violence in Washington, and so one reason that snap is a healthier ecosystem than these. Other platforms is because, even in the company head of it. When we were still growing, I mean it's not like Facebook woke up one day. Four years ago and there's a genocide in Myanmar and there, like oh shit, we have to do something about this once a genius how the bottle is very high. To have an entire team of people, editing and fact checking and removing content you no not yet in United States, but in Nigeria in Indonesia in Canada. Like that, Then it's out of the bag of user. Also, your horses out of the barn at that point is that as a tougher you, also, a founder and contributor to a new digital subscription site called puck. What differentiates puck in the kind of writing

what to do there is similar to the writing that you did for vanity, fair and done in the past year. I mean, I think. Puck is first of all pop aims to cover some the same things that the Vanity fair covers. This sort of nexus of power between how, would Wall Street Silicon Valley itself? and now I will continue our politics in the media, for puck differentiate or with park is day one it subscription, based as we are talking about an that, feels like a healthy model to carry forward for news organisations we are starting out, without all the layers of bureaucracy and payroll, that a lot of big media companies like caught a asked Lake Time Warner whatever are dealing with now, as media changes, but, to importantly, Pock views the journalists as the creators right we are building a company ourselves. We each have a piece of the camp

me and we believe that certain journalists have followings and that we can provide content for that audience, that they can't get anywhere else, journalists journalist give away a lot of stuff for free everyday. When I tweet. If I tweeted insight about an exit pole or something I'm seeing in Michigan or whatever I'm giving away knowledge for free and journalists. Do that probably too much, and I think some of that can be behind a pay. While you made the decision not to go in house and try to change existing media institution, but to sort of both captured in the now at park, so to do a new thing, What do you see like? What's it what's up sustainable, healthy media ecosystem in one year five year ten years down the road. How do you see that you do you think that, like sort of existing media institutions can change to sort of

deliver high quality journalism and not just sort of the fast takes that we see online all the time or do you think that something completely new needs to be built? I dont think anything's necessarily gonna get much better. I mean like I again I care about journalism. I want to succeed, I'm working hard in my own job and other side, hustles to figure out ways to connect regular people, journalism, war and and make it less of an elite college educated product. But his heart I mean there's, there's like fake websites out there called the or

and oh Dispatch and Europe, you know you're low information, everyday person, they sit on Facebook. They don't know that, don't you get your Lando dispatch near Lando Sentinel like people. Your Linda Dispatch told me that the vaccine would magnetize me where yeah I mean people. I think people again that work in journalism need to spend more time with regular people and watching how they consume the news, how they consume information generally, what screens thereon what platforms are using and hopefully that will inform how they create news and new formats and the Future trust immediate, isn't just going down. Among Republicans, it has by a higher margin, but is still going down among independence and Democrats too, and just think about the generation that I speak to unsnapped chat, who didn't even come up with

newspapers like I talk to people all the time and the site might by kid. Does anyone know a channel? Cbs is on like that on cable, you know and that's Sancho like children, urgency, that's adults at this point. People are watching you two tv they're just so many people coming into political sentience who don't even though a news is- and I think that we need to be more humble about that and have some awareness that we get a better jobs, do educating people about what news is and what it can be. Last question amassing every guest: what's your favorite way to unplug and how often do you do it if you mean making cocktails Katy S every night as the answer that as long as you use a year when you're make How do you say that you are not looking at your phone correct? I mean we cook Alot cooking fucking car you talking, I don't know. Sometimes I actually told her recently I was like now. My friends could nowhere may not usually works. Well that, if you

looked more, you would get less mad at postman delivery. Drivers, which I know is one of the only things that puts a frown on your face. When I forget to order. No, I think thing. I've, mom and dad taught me and my brothers had it. It's always something I've done even before I got into news, but the idea of getting your hands dirty and putting your phone down and chopping and like putting her hands and a mixing bowl or whatever like that, but that doesn't Oh my god. Like everyone was that bus really value hole. I get it because I dont cook, but it's later in the pandemic. When Emily was cooking a lot, I would I was clean and cleaning you know Finally, but my phone down, because my hands are wet and didn't dishes and other kinds of an eye didn't think. I'd want to clean, but then, after a while, I was like it actually is somewhat soothing to just do some dishes clean up the kitchen, not look at your phone, like I don't mind yeah, I household chores get me away from foreign. That's ok beside a sort of super

venturous. I later methods are in every day answer and that's what matters Peter whom we thank you for joining us offline is a crooked media production. It written in hosted by me. John fabric are producer, is Andy Gardner, Bernstein its mixed in by Andrew Chadwick? Kyle segment in Charlotte Landis sounded Geneva. The ship Jordan CAT and Kenny Siegel take care of our music two tiny, so Maneater, Michael Martinez, irish shorts and Sandy Gerard for production support into our digital team. Elijah cone, Milo Kim and Normal Conan, who film and share our episodes, is videos every week.