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Democrats choose to go big and fast on Covid relief, Republicans choose applause over punishment for Marjorie Taylor Greene, and control of the House could hinge on the redistricting battles set to begin soon. Then journalist Farai Chideya talks to Dan about building a media that’s more representative and better connected to all communities.

For a closed-captioned version of this episode, please visit crooked.com/podsaveamerica. 

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
What would apply to America. I'm John Favour. I'm dyin cypher, Today's pod democrats go big and fast uncovered relief. Republicans, take it easy unless Cheney and Marjorie Taylor, Green and the fate of democracy could depend on the redistricting battles that will take place in state houses over the coming months. Dan talks to journalists, for I today about building a media, that's more representative and better connected to all communities, but first check out key All this month, IRA, Aouda and Louis will be having discussions with black creators, black on business leaders and many great guess for black history month also check out this week save the world, to learn about the military coup in Myanmar that took place this week and speak,
applied, save the world Ben roads. His written another book which in three order right now: it's called after the fall of open travels around the world after Trump one where he met with dissidents, opposition leaders and young activists. We're trying to understand the turn towards authoritarianism and nationalism in their own countries and all The world Bank is one of the best writers. I've ever met one of the best storytellers. I know you should go free order. After the fall right now, it comes out in June, I started reading it a few nights ago. It does not disappoint as it is. It is outstanding, I'm all right. Because it is a real rough estimate that that I got you to read a book, so I'm very, very proud. I only read my former colleagues books. Brazil evokes area, when twenty, I was Samantha Power, Barack Obama, your book and and now bents, I will
couple things like this. I have also started reading it. Yours, accurate, that is writer is also a chance to revisit a world where you can travel. So if you'd miss travelling, that's a good place that is an essay harnessed sore of podcast related, but pitches bends pitch for why he wrote the book at what you can get from reading it on positive. The world is a holiday book pitch and Tommy's. Bitch was also quite persuasive, witches by bends book to make sure that it ends up ahead. Dan bungee knows on the best seller system, but you know how about coming up. I don't want it. Just the two any asshole for data ass. Any I saw on the right you could always better son ass all from the right with about coming up with a diamond. comes out will be like Lauren birds books, go check that lets. With a quick update and begin negotiations over binds covered relief plan. The president, president met with the ten republican senators who made a counter offer on Monday
to our meeting. Everyone said nice thing, about each other afterwards, but the waiter still released statement that Red quote, while there areas of agreement. The president also reiterated his view that Congress must respond boldly and urgently and in many areas which the republican senators proposal does not address. Sure enough. All fifty Senate, Democrat its voted on Tuesday to use a budget reconciliation bill to pass the covert relief plan, which would only require fifty one votes instead of sixty not only to Joe mentioned vote in favour of using budget. Reconciling asian some people were a little worried, you might not. He said this about the size of the plan on MSNBC. The worst thing we can do is put it put a price tag on what the needs of the people are. Basically how we keep the comic on how we keep people, basically ready this economy the coming back and are prepared to be part of it. So if it's one, nine trillion, so be it. If it's a lot
smaller than that, and we find the targeted need in us we're going to do that. I wanted to be by partisan. So if they think you're gonna, basically we're gonna, throw all caution to the wind just shut down people. So that's not going to happen. So that's what mentioned be mentioned, but good news on the one point: nine trillion that he is willing to embrace one point: nine trillion. If it gets there, it does seem like he has at least two specific sticking points over. Of course, he keeps saying he wants to be proposing, wants to be by partisan That seems like it's gonna be tricky, but on the policies, are you keep saying by making the bill more targeted to people who have been most impacted by the pandemic, and this could be why we learned yesterday. The Democrats are reportedly considering lowering the income threshold for the fourteen hundred dollar checks from seventy five thousand two, fifty thousand dollars for individuals who make that
here and from a hundred fifty thousand a year down to a hundred thousand a year for married couples. Parents would also get fourteen hundred dollar checks per child. Then, what do you think about this change in and by Democrats are reportedly considering it I assume their report to consider and because they need your mansions vote and he's giving he's. you made it like a requirement. Expressed a strong desire for I think we should be glad that he is open to a very two up, a large bill, a bit of a number consistent with what Biden has talked about. I think this is a foolish and unnecessary
the thing to do, if not know, there's no situation where there is a perfect process for distributing funds. It just has never worked in the history of time to say a something it has to be done very quickly at a very large scale. I would much prefer n a history. recession in a pandemic that there did you err on the side of helping some people who need it less than not helping enough people who need it more bite. This is this is what this is sort of the reality we're gonna have to come to terms with which, as we need your man, so many cares and cinema we need more Kelly. We needs a handful of more conservative senators to get something done, and hopefully we can be persuaded to something different, but this is why this is happening. It is not Joe Biden just deciding so that he can appeal to austerity hawks and mourning job or whatever else, to demonstrate
sort of do austerity virtue signalling this, is I imagined and assume the what, if he's, trying to figure out what it is going to take to get off? If you Democrats devote for something that is very close to one point: nine trillion dollars in line with what he proposed last month,. Yeah. I mean we talked about this a couple pods ago, like when Susan Collins was complaining that people making three hundred thousand dollars or get a Czech like. I understood that three thousand dollars is a lot of money. I don't know that someone needs a stimulus check if there may contain those knows. I also wasn't sure what she was talking about, because I don't know what threshold that really is in in the
plan, but, like these numbers get thrown around in Washington in the press and like, I think, people don't think about what real people are going through. Like imagine, if you're making sixty thousand dollars a year- and you ve gotten the past in those checks and suddenly come and tells you that you can't get your full stimulus, checkmating sixty thousand dollars a year, because why they needed to like save a little bit of money. It's not a ton of money to go from some effects. That's in two! Fifty thousand dollars in the context of a one point: nine trillion dollar piece of legislation. So does he very silly to me and and harmful to people who are struggling making in that income bracket? said again, we urge us all fuckin living in Joe Mansions world dimension, one something. Then you can yell at em. You can try to persuade em, but at the end of the day ever democratic senator, gets to act like the majority leader they do. They just take it because it there There is no bill similarly, mansion also said, he's again
raising the minimum wage to fifteen dollars per hour, and then he'll only goes. As eleven dollars per hour. Background of this is in West Virginia, the minimum wages. around seven dollars an hour. The cost of living in West Virginia is slower than other places. So again, minimum wages are the same, are equal in many states. Fifteen dollars an hour in a place like Ella or New York is probably still too low to have a living wage to keep herself about poverty. Certainly in West Virginia, though maybe eleven dollars does is, is a living wage. So what would we about that like as there are there, is there a way to square the circle so that we don't get no increase in the minimum wage, but that, if Joe met, if clearly dimension, is a hard, no one fifteen. It's not gonna pass because you need all fifty for we persuade your mention about how high the middle way should be. We have to persuade the Senate parliamentarian and a minimum wage increase fits into the rules of budget reconciliation, which is a
a very great question centre. She, whereas express some optimism on that last month by we don't know ads, there? We once again we may be in the unfortunate situation of having to compromise with your mansion to get something done. The middle way has not been raised since two thousand and seven. I believe that federally. I think this is something we should push aggressively on even with mansion, even with Republicans, because ass we seen in our policy, our own countrymen and wages, but if the fifteen dollars in wages incredibly popular and what with bipartisan support among the public, and so I think we should push we therefore did not immediately a seed to his demands. There could be some of these foe populist Republicans, who could potentially be on board with
A wage depend on. Are we dealing with the minimum wage increases part of a stand alone? Piece of legislation requires sixty votes because it is not viewed as part of budget conciliation or is it in this deal with your mansion has veto over every single word in the larger krona virus package? We should say the Good NEWS about mansion here is he's running around talking about one point: nine trillion dollars is ok like even there is a bad policy decision on the threshold for the checks. You know, there's a bad policy decision. Minimum wage that we don't agree with, which I wouldn't, if, if it does pass like this. Unemployment benefits alone in this package that is going to hold people who are unemployed to anywhere Seventy to one hundred percent of their wages through September is really important to vex nation money super important, the child care money, the rent money, the you know there is,
so much in this plan. That is really important, can make a huge impact on people's lives, and the fact that it does seem like mansion is on board with most of it, and so are all the other Democrats on board with reconciliation and passing it with only fifty one votes is overall, very goodness. Now Republicans in Congress are still pretending that they give a shit about me partisanship there also trying to been reporters into believing that Biden really wants to cut a deal with Republicans, but his liberal advisors are standing in the way on Wednesday. Republicans got some help on this file anonymous longtime Joe Biden adviser who decided to fuckin go on background two politico and say that the White House statement after the meeting was too harsh. That's all, driven by IRAN, clean and other Obama veterans who learned during negotiations over the affordable care act. That waiting around for republican votes is pointless.
This adviser also said that getting republican votes is worth lowering the price tag of the planned by a few hundred billion dollars. I mean we're even begin here Dan. What's that, what's the argument for lowering the price tag to get Republican boats that you don't need? There is none the entire changes so frustrating on so many levels, one because this very vague anonymous sourcing. We have no idea who this person is It could very well be a long time by an adviser seems clear: it's not someone who works in the White House, since it seems it certainly not so would evolve. With drafting the statement in the White House, someone who is Biden's legislative director from like one thousand nine hundred and eighty six and one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine- it could be a former campaign aide who is not involved in the White House. but who is in my nineteen, ninety seven, by setting us in turn class? We do I answer on that
I should say the reason we're bringing it up anyway, is because it is the narrative. That's not only coming from this random anonymous by an adviser from the past. Republicans are pushing this narrative, the press, a lot of the DC political press has bought into this narrative, especially at political and other places. So it is out There- and this been this adviser sort of gave it more life, which is why our brain One other thing just like this is wrong: clean making, Joe Biden do things Obama, adviser rankling Franklin, worked for Joe Biden from night And eighty six often in December, two thousand and twenty perfect- that's that's part of it, but the idea that two to three hundred billion dollars in less aid to the economy. in the pandemic, control effort is worth and for the votes is in saying that is just like words that Tuna Buenos commanded like talk about talk about FUCK DC brain. How long have you been there? Jesus Christ? That's what you you're like like this
people's lives struggling repair damage in your like more a couple hundred billion for a vote that be cool we talking about where? But where does it come from? You gonna do less money to get the vaccine out? Are you gonna couples and its payment benefits for for this optic? It is, it's so it's too a strain of political coverage and poetry that is so deeply stupid, which is thinking that objects are more important than substance. What is gonna matter more two years from now, just put aside all the substances in people's lives, helping to put their families The other financially jealous just talk, politics or settings. That's coolly, white politico by name in this case is focused on, is in twenty twenty, two or people going to think more about whether Joe Biden got five republican votes for his corona virus package or whether the economy is backing running, a people can leave their homes again, which do you think
more important, rarely weren't you, everybody has rest a rather is definitely some political rest for someone who ran on a unity message to path. You pass a very large built on a party of mind because it allows the other party just stand back and say. This is all your fault, everything that goes wrong. There's all brothers, also risk ed, You're responding to the crisis and having it linger, which risk would you choose between those two things? That seems pretty clear what the right answer is also again. Public opinion is on Joe Biden side here. Data for progress has a pull out yesterday by fifty five to thirty five percent. Voters want Democrats in Congress to pass a larger bill as soon as possible. even if it doesn't have support from Republicans in Congress that was yesterday. We now have poles from Yahoo NEWS in you. Gov data for progress, Quinnapin check all confirming the immediate change. Paul from the other week that set
eighty percent of american support this plan by this plan it up around seventy percent- the goals the airport is the goat s. Yes and yes, of course, it's the Ansell Sir. two thousand and eight to two thousand and ten or two thousand and twenty seven then support and in forty percent republican support. You know, and now you get I get a much disappointed by democratic I have a new way of defining bi partisanship by the percentage of support they're getting from voters and, in the end, the country like yeah. That is the fuckin definition The voters in the country, the people who decide elections they like the plan. I don't give a fuck what a couple Republicans in the Senate caucus think about it. That's their problem go ask them why they are not supporting a plan that seventy percent of american support, including almost half their own party ass. Then the question don't ask us ask them and ask the anonymous by advice or those that you people ask
well, that's a political player. got the anonymous Biden adviser who was you're the intern in your class back in the back in the eighties, but actually gets deeper study to speak to them and who is about adviser in the White House, and he pushed back pretty hard in this idea that there is some kind of split he's like this. Who Biden is he goes he he wants to be polite to people. He wants EV, respectful disagreement. but he like he's not naive about what Republicans want and he's like. Okay, with her being disagreement and again, everyone keeps confusing, I think who Joe Biden is and entered of what his approach is going to be like when he talks about unity when he talks about bipartisanship. Even it's not Joe Biden. Thinking he's going to completely change the Republican Party, bring a whole bunch of them on board and then everything's going to pass bipartisan bills. It's Tony said he doesn't think that every fight has to be
political war. He doesn't think you have to be nasty to each other, which is why, as soon as that meeting ended, like Susan Collins walks out of the meeting talks to reporters and like we know, we didn't agree on everything we had a really nice chat and like if all Joe Biden's bipartisan unity bit is, is making sure that people aren't screaming at each other. All the time in washington- and I like calling each other names and at least are listening to each other, even if they end up this agreement, that's pretty good! That's pretty good different than the last four years. So one thing before we move on from this: you know area talking about how the Biden folks and a lot of specifically people who work in the bite administration that used to work in your bad administration have lessons from two thousand and nine when they talk about that, they mean both lessons from the negotiations around the recovery ACT and then the affordable care act. Right after that, since you and I were both there, do you want to explain why things went the way they did and what lessons?
we learned there. While I can explain it to you, I would also recommend you read Barack Obama sake unless it is I particularly well known book promised which is only solve seven gazillion copies. There is no question that, with as of Amazon, is broken with the benefit of hindsight, we would do a lot of things different way than we didn't ass a knight. I do think, however, some of the re telling of that history has been overly reductive and doesn't sort of provide context, and so there is no question that the fact that the first stimulus that we pass was too small for the challenge. Now you may say why did we do that? And there were three weeks:
and for that I think, are relevant one, the top. Why number was dictated by members of Congress who had just passed a stimulus the year before in to bank bailouts that no one wanted to pass before, where necessary a month earlier before this, the whole competition begin. Second, we had a bit much more conservative democratic majority button, but just from top to bottom, like youth, Joe Mansion, is closer to the left, then the right in the end, the democratically, of two thousand and nine you has you, add Joe Liebermann, whose vote we needed, who have endorsed campaign for and spoken at the convention of Rock Obama's opponent. We needed his. We needed the vote of Bed Nelson to the right your mentioned waterways. We had two centres: North Dakota, two centres at article senator and, alas, consider lose it. We had a lot of very conservative senators in red districts that globally,
or would never two billion years have been for using budget reconciliation for this purpose, and we also only half the people always like we have sixty seller if we actually had fifty eight, because we would have had fifty nine. By our frank, it was in a recount that lasted through the first half of two thousand and nine. He actually did not get seated the summer, late June or July July, we had. We had sixty senators from July of two thousand and nine two February, two thousand and ten. That's at that. I see where majority and one of them was Joe, they prevent the sultan. and then the last thing I think, is really important that I do think people forget a law which is as bad That is the crisis. Was we didn't even realise how bad it was because the first report of the gross domestic product for the last half of two thousand and eight during the crash was that the comment contracted.
six point eight percent, and that was the stimulus, is about filling the whole me economy. We learned you're. The stimulus was passed when they revise the numbers of the number was actually eight point: nine, so the off by a pretty large, percent air. So all those things combined. What is to be in a position where we did not get the? stimulus the amount of He was an response we needed in the short term and that what happened because of that is the our party, which not just we direct sorts, and it is also a gigantic coalition, a boot clinical blue dot, Democrat Democrats in the house who were very fiscally conscious, if you will add, were there We were unable to go back to the well to get more stimulus, for we saw we're missing the most important thing from all of this, in
Brok Obama withdrew that even I would agree with it. The buying people who agree with it is you get one shot to redress this crisis, and everything else that you want to do depends on addressing the crisis right out, which is why they are going big and fast and comprehensive it being aggressive about. Because if you fail here, you're gonna be trained. You dig yourself out of this economic and political whole for the rest of your term, and so There is a lot of lessons to learn about two thousand and nine, and it is very clear that Joe Biden, who was there and manage the recovery act completely understands at his team. I think, is very wisely approaching this with that during the night, and I would agree with all that, and I would just add General political coverage tends to focus on care yours and personalities and lessons learned from individuals and whose tough and whose not, who smarten who's not
and usually the answer lies not in analyses, but who has power, not characters, but what the larger context is in the larger context is. We now have a more ideologically consistent caucus in the house. And in the Senate than we did back in two thousand and nine, and now we have power in and events we have a house majority, ideologically consistent. We have us majority that is more ideologically consistent than it was that we still have Joe Mansion and end Kaerusson sentiment to deal with, and so we're going to be able to just do a lot more and to be a little bit more ambitious than we were in two thousand, and I have we all learn lessons from how the Republicans acted in two thousand nine, and ever since yeah, absolutely even if we knew in two thousand and nine that Republicans we're gonna block every single piece of legislation and be obstructionist, we still would have had to deal with Joe Liebermann and Ben Nelson and all these people
and it broke. Obama like what was right and I'm going to do like go Ben Nelson's go to Nebraska and start like whipping up crowds against been Nelson bail shit about breakup of looking to profess got bed Nelson, like he decided to be afraid of Barack Obama, and so I do think that send in their people to keep in mind today, just because again Joe Biden can yellow Joe Dimension all he wants, but the dimension is going to have a lot of power over the next couple years and it's just something that we're gonna have It was unfortunate America is brought you by June. Shine. June. China hard computer, is the most insanely delicious better for you, alcohol, it's me, with real organic ingredients and, unlike other alcoholic beverages, their transparent about every ingredient they put in their products. It's actually better for you I'll call it a functional ingredient. Its low in sugar.
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course you want that. Go to square space check it out, squares based our come such cricket. I, let's like about Republicans in Congress, they're having a hell of a time this week, There are big decision on Wednesday you punish the house member who voted to impeach Donald Trump for provoking the attack on the capital. Or do you punish How member who thinks Democrats should be executed and wildfires are caused by jewish space lasers. host Republicans went with, neither neither in a secret ballot. Only Sixty one members voted to oust was Cheney from her leadership post on Wednesday night. While a hundred and forty five voted to keep her as for Marjorie Taylor, green Not only did Kevin Mccarthy and House Republicans decide not to strip her of her. Committee assignments, half of them. Reportedly, for a standing ovation after she have tonight and apologize for all the comments. She definitely said, as recording that she's on the floor this morning saying things like I do, but
did nine slash, eleven happen, which is seen as something good for her. That's something that she has to say. That's a real, the real sister Souljah moment for her. It's it's very brave thing. The nine slash eleven happen and what's happening now is the full house is going to vote on whether she should be stripped of her committee assignments before we get to Green Dan. What is your take on the Chinese? The list vote First, a Pulitzer Prize to the reporter who uncovers which Republican voted present on a secret ballot cause that person should, so be stripped of their committee memberships. current stability, so funny No one's going to know my vote to instil too afraid they number People who voted against Chinese is pretty substantial and pretty telling about just how divided the Republican Party is. This is ultimately a
decision by the carcass writ large to kick the ball down the field, a little bed and deal with this later and so eight Mccarthy, probably has it in in a weird, very short term ways is probably a winner fur Kevin Mccarthy, in the sense that he gets to continue to The cuban trump best crazy part of his carcass feel good. That is on their side. There are the insurrectionists wing of the Republican Party, of which I would note that democracy is a part of but also the more establishment corporate backed part of the the party can feel comfortable that it has it fully devolved into larger Taylor Green ISM. So it
sort of it. They accomplish nothing, they solve their problems and they managed to only slightly exacerbate the problems they had. If that makes sense, it does to me the most telling part of the whole thing is the secret ballot. I believe that if it wasn't secret ballot and they had to be public about their votes, there will be a lot more of them who are afraid of what would happen to them if they voted to defend was training because they are let around by you know, but their voters and there It is a letter round by right wing lunatics on Foxen, rightwing radio, though that's it, but you get a secret vote, may be some of them feel it. They can be a little bit more normal, just a little bit more normal, but when its public they are scared, shitless. So entire house is about to vote on a resolution to Strip Marjorie Taylor Green of her to committee positions. This comes after Kevin Mccarthy offered to kick green off one committee, but not the other
an offer that has majority leader anyway, you're rejected some Mccarthy decided to accept her fake apology telling reporters quote, This republican party is a very big tent. Everyone's invited in if you everyone from deficit hawks to people who think Nancy policy should be executed. It's a big tent the big tent in and then he pretended to night even know what Cuban on is here is a clip that they could be helpful if you could hear exactly what she told all those denouncing killer. I don't know if I say right- and I know what it is any from the shootings said, she knew nothing about. Lasers are all the different things that have been brought up about her has no idea what you need is except here's a clip of Cavern Mccarthy. Just a few months ago. There is no place for Cuba and the Republican Party. I do not support it and at the level the Canada Utah about, has denounced it real leading light of the Republican Party Dan Kevin Mccarthy, sister lock on upstairs
he managed to pronounce it incorrectly twice in two different, but that's what what we're going to is going to do one committee, but not too, That's a small question. He's so painfully stupid just painfully dumb and he was the house with his job was to comforts, and it is incredibly rare for a house majority to call a vote in lose it because you get to decide. When it goes, you get to count the votes and it happened to him several times. It is like what the guy Maxie brain meme is for something that Serbia, which is yes, leader, hire you some solid points here, and I think she is definitely to anti semitic and off the rails to work on it. Station issues, but we were issues I think we're ok with like what the fuck are. You talking about this issue This is also the problem is we are dealing with really stupid people and really important positions at a very important time for this country.
Do you see onto the Democrats? Do you see any risks to Democrats kicking her off these committees, this just so people know this hasn't doesn't happen. Usually don't have a full vote in the house to kick a member off their committees. Usually, if member does get remove from Kemys happens within the party, I cover Mccarthy did ultimately kicks Steve, off his committee's because he's a white nationalist belatedly, because he's a white nationalist, but usually it happens within the party. This is you know, going to the to the to the full floor is unusual. Do you see any risk in this for Democrats not political risk. This is absolutely the right thing to do. There is, I think, Democrats have a political imperative and, frankly, moral obligation to deal with someone like this and to shine a light on what the Republican Party has become its headed. There is almost certainly going to be some form of retribution. If republicans take the house again in two years, yeah
I mean they will immediately take some comments that Sir members are all members of the squad made. They will twist them into something off and they will all vote to kick them all off committees, probably other members as well. It will definitely happen. And then so we say that like. Maybe they shouldn't do that because, ultimately, who cares? What module committee Marjorie Taylor Greens on I just think Democrat Cannot pull up It is based on what we think Republicans may do, because they will probably do it anyway and the eye? How agree this likely to make her a martyr, and the Republican Party of weeds, big tack, how they would cancel culture, bullshit, absolutely and we do live in this very disturbing. Information, political environment. Where calling out the.
extreme positions of someone strengthens that person's position in a lot of weight like it is nice so much. Some videos mutually assured attention. She has raised well over a million dollars cause. She said crazy things and Democrats collar out for them, which is a pretty disturbing sign about where Our politics are and where the Republican Party and its bases so like that, we should not Democrats have to do this because it is the right thing to do. I also think it is a politically wise thing to do to put to shine a light on this, but we should not pretend
this is going to do anything to make the Republican Party less Extreme Wes out of the mainstream, less dangerous, it will probably have the opposite effect is not our job to police. Their party by that that is ultimately the her hand, is, I think, strengthened by this, not weakened. So I emphasise why it's important to do as well, because they think some of the focus on Green has been. Oh. She makes these serve kooky crazy comments. Right is someone who said that Muslims should not serve in Congress. This is a man who said who promoted opposed liked opposed that Nancy policy should be assassinated, like the Kyoto conspiracy is not just like some cook
conspiracy is. Cuba has been able to domestic terror threat from the FBI because to Non believes that leading Democrats should be executed. She is someone who has advocated violence against government officials shortly after we just had a riot, an insurrection and capital where government officials were targeted for US ass, a nation is, it does not get more serious than that. Yeah, there's also a question of like why not expel her. That was on the table to expel member of Congress. I believe you do need a two thirds majority which of course, Democrats are not going to get in the house. I also think that the problem with this her is she probably go run again in the end and the people of North West Georgia would vote her back in. This is does the headline in the Atlantic Journal Constitution today the leader of a paramilitary groups provided security for Margaret. Green said: he's formed alliances with other far right: racist NEO, Nazi Hake groups to advocate. for Georgia's secession. One of them said things are differ
now the ballot box. We tried as hard as we could. It's not working. This is what's happening right now in different places. country in an increasingly Marjorie Taylor. Greens district rightly focus a lot on the Republican Party and Kevin Mccarthy, but the Orders Bay Centre there and if you get rid of muttered filigree, probably a vote another lunatic back in that district, so the problem goes a little deeper than I think we would hope. Democrats are already trying to make green and Republicans like her the face of the Republican Party in advance, the twenty twenty two mid terms: the democratic congressional campaign cherish on Patrick Maloney Preview, the party strategies politico, saying quote Kevin Mccarthy wants to take his party too crazy town and follow these dangerous. Besides, he shouldn't expected dwell in next election. They can do q and on they can do college educated voters. They cannot do both the day trip is already.
running five hundred thousand dollars worth of ads. Linking house Republicans and battleground districts to the dangerous cult here is the At a conspiracy took over, the Republican Party said followers to Congress and with Donald Trump incited to attack the capital than Republicans IQ came and Michel still to protect Europe living Mcewen. Cuban steel should have stood with us, but they were cowards. They stood with Trump and the lies representatives, steel. They stood with keen, not you do she is responsible for the content of this advertising is did with Cuba. you dad what a little I am, he ended. I would say about what you think of this strategy. Overall, I would also note that that same person is we're doing voiceover fur travel, see nerdy ass, my entire career,
it is a little. This is not only desirable, see his father's a sort of how you have to get things covered, I'm ninety percent sure that Egypt will see does not and no one else knows what their strategy for twenty twenty two is going to be we if we all lotta miles of travel before we get there yeah. I do You think as a political communications approach in this media environment pudding paid advertising behind stories that are relevant and making sure that or see them long. Advancing election is the right way to do it, so I dont want, every word and sat on all of the execution? I support the strategy. I think, is the right thing to do. What impact it will have in the long run, who knows by you stepped back. What this is really about is continuing to walk in the Trump Eric gains among suburban voters who
add keeping that going as you can see a world where Democrats can be very concerned without evidence of this. Yet, but beyond my worry list that with Trump in the background with that people not seen from everyday, the people could revert back to where they won't be fortunate politically right, and they only need a small handful of suburban voters to go back Tina, Romney click. Voters who voted for Clinton and Biden in for democratic doesn't eighteen to revert to begin to think the Republicans are less. Crazy? Then they were choppin as it turns out there actually more crazy post trump and they were during Trump. Making voters, no. That is well certainly be an essential whether this exact execution will be an essential political goal for the democratic over the next two years,
Did you ever see said that something like sixty plus percent of voters knew what you and I was an appalling that they did, which really surprised me, because I would not have guessed that that many people dead? I still wonder if you ask them: ok, explain what you and honest They could do that, but anyway there, like five people who can do that total a she and Q is not one of them its letter. So putting that aside. I think the overall strategy of trying to depict the Republican Party as in the thrall of extremists is a useful strategy, should be the only strategy. Probably not prejudice is we still don't know like, for example, in Georgia, in the run off, Democrats ran an economic
We populous campaign against Republicans, and I thought we both that that was a good idea, may also pointed out that Leffler in Purdue were part of the big lie. The Donald Trump was telling and helping and trade
overturn the election. So there was an argument that they were extremist and other public and party was extremists and that the Republican Party was just trying to help rich people at the expense of the working class which one of those arguments with more effective. We actually don't know, we don't know yet which drove voters and in and in truth, different arguments could have driven different voters in different kinds of voters at the polls. I do think there needs to be a little bit more research on what exactly is motivating different groups of voters in what has motivating them in the past, but in general we know from like decades of political science, research that is voted believe a candidate or a party is more extreme ideologically way out to the side, either on the right or the left. They're gonna be less likely to vote for that candidate or part, but we do know that so just painting the Republicans extreme is at least useful. It's not everything but its useful
one of the biggest factors that will determine who controls the house after the twenty twenty two elections is a process that will begin in the next few months. Redistricting what is redistricting? Well, we held the census every ten years. As a result, some states lose population. Other states gain population that changes. States number of electoral votes, since that depends on population. It also changes each state's number of house districts since that depends on population. So, every ten years all fifty states have two redraw the boundaries of their host districts, based on the news
since its numbers, if your state government is entirely controlled by Republicans, Republicans get to essentially pick their own voters by drawing districts that are favourable to republican politicians, known as Jerry Manders. If you're state is controlled by Democrats, Democrats get to draw the districts in some states and independent or by Partisan commission, gets to draw the maps and this year, which is a d redistricting year day, blossoming of the cook political report. who is such an expert on the process that is twitter? Handle is literally redistricting, says that Republicans may be able to win the six seats they need to take control of the house just by drawing new maps again leaving that report and just by redrawing the maps during redistricting can pick up the succeeds. They need to take country the House of Representatives in twenty twenty two and this year also reduce rings gonna start in July, because the census data has been delayed due to the pandemic
did I leave anything out there and where should Democrats be worried? Which state and where might Democrats have an advantage. Democrats should be worried generally because in states that allow partisan, redistricting, Republicans control district wines. Four hundred eighty eight seats and Democrats controller for seventy three seats, the states that are most likely we don't know that most likely to gain seats include Florida. Texas in Georgia, Republicans have complete control, reducing process in those three states, and so like additive, Austrians, actually being what he says. May he is just like put in a colonel of doubt, without it is very clear, based on the number of seats, these states are going to get an how aggressive republicans have redrawn these districts. on a partisan basis, the last time around that, while could win other seeds to make up the gap to hold the house just they will take control just on the states. I mentioned
Democrats have an advantage in New York so once it where we now have complete control and have some ability do it Republicans, could still lose seats in some states where they have complete control because they have almost unanimous control of the congressional delegation. But this is deeply deeply considering we went into this election in two thousand and twenty with huge hopes of making real gains to be it. Much better position than we were there. We were two thousand and ten, and while we are in a better position than we were after the two thousand and ten election, we failed. gain control of a single entity that would give us additional influence over the process in the twilight should. Thank goodness we so while she doesn't eighteen, because we're ever pick up governor shifts in some states that would allow us to have a say in the process, but we enter into the revision process in a deeply deeply deeply disadvantageous position.
And just you know, you may be wondering like what about a sailor? California, where democrats have full control, what's going on there? Well California, outsourcing redistricting to a commission, so that its not partisan same thing is States Colorado, Virginia Washington. Also, California, is all in all likelihood going to lose the seat this time. So even the states where we have full control and in some of the more in the blue or states there, either either by or or non partisan commissions or where are are those states that are actually gonna lose population therefore lose a seat so we're just an eight. We are in a bad spot, and like it's not. I think it's a worrying about those if it's not a bad spot like in a normal year years ago, it's a bad spot where republican control of the house could mean you know in twenty one.
for the next coup succeeds because now Republicans control those. They could start impeachment hearings of job and when they went in TWAIN way too. It's the end of Joe Biden, legislative agenda and twenty two of the housing public and take over so it is, it is quite worrisome and what do we do about it in We need a time machine. ok, next, what else we get along and others got theirs, two elements of things we can do one is grass roots activism in the states where this process is happening. All on the line, which is a project associated with these National Democratic Registering commission, is organizing grassroots campaigns to put pressure on Republicans. Indivisible is org. as in their chapters, to put pressure on Republicans to shine a light on what is happening. we can actually have influence and we should absolutely not waive the white flag in their efforts. The the
worse gerrymandering happens when it happens out of the spotlight. Were you don't put pressure on people and you can really push hard I'm not saying this is beneficial about them, as in the Texas. Republicans are also going to become more responsive to the will of the people, but you do we had we have agency here we have to. We have to use. The other thing we can do is really simple and really important, which is before the people ACT, which is the essential. The updated version of the Jean Louis Voting Rights ACT would ban partisan gerrymandering. It would have been any map that Billy favours one political party or the other, and if we were to put that in place, we would have a chance at outlawing. The worse gerrymandering in this upcoming elections, we would have to do that very quickly. In order to do that, we have to eliminate the filibustering passable so again, we could save the house potentially if
Imagine and cares, and cinema would only vote to get rid of the filibuster. So we could pass. The agenda was voting rights ACT. This is the next decade of our lives. What happens in this revision process is going to determine the ethic of August, It is not just federal district. It's also state districts, there's a whole bunch of things happening here. It would. In addition to do that with gerrymandering, the for the people, acts would put on voter registration place, it would stop a lot. These really malicious republic in efforts to roll back voting rights in their ducks. All we have to do in order to give ourselves the best chance to govern this country in a progressive way, consistent with the of the majority is for a small handful of senators to be willing to change their opinion on an archaic, esoteric legislative loophole and then pass a bill that, according to our pull, has two thirds support in that country.
cloning more than thirty percent of trumpeters? That is all we have to do more to ask and I will do anything politically hard rescue you to break with a Senate tradition. The head. was critical to the implementation and maintain that of Jim Crow, Jim Crow Relic is Barack Obama called it changed that pass this popular bill to make America more democratic into stop in effort to rig politics and steal the house is ready for us in so ass yourself what Mitch Mcconnell do in a similar situation, if soon Collins only some are Caskey were being a little reticent about something that we give the Republicans the best chance to control the levels of government for decades, but tat he would do you mean, I think we are that every single and the thing is the answer to that it I mean it's it's one of be the most important piece of legislation that is in front of Congress that Joe Biden could sign in the entire first term. It may be for them
like you said, maybe for the next ten years, not because it is Would an gerrymandering dark money in politics. It would protect voting rights rollback. Some things republicans have done to make it harder to vote, offer the sitting, of DC importer Rico Statehood, I mean like that they number of things it would do to make to unrest. Democracy are just mind, buying unnecessary and just like that. But if the Republicans pick up six seats that they need from redistricting are only other chance of picking up seats in the house. We have nine Republicans in the house sitting in districts, the Joe Biden, one, which is not many and then we have seven Democrats sitting in seats that Donald Trump one in twenty twenty, so the playing field, is relatively small in twenty twenty two, because
like we don't have a lot of other targets and opportunities. Should the republican start by making up six seats just by drawing the maps so it's gonna, be really really hard in twenty twenty two and it's never been more important I know it's. Every election is, most importantly, our election of our lifetime, but because we now have a authoritarian part that heads democracy. It's true, I think simpler, for you understand that, while our friend Mark Elias and other attorneys can do everything they can to fight back in the court's over these new partisan maps, we have to realise that a quarter to the Supreme Court. Thank you to moderate hero. John Roberts, partisan redistricting is constitution, the Supreme Court and independent written, I believe by John Roberts, made this point, which is so painfully stupid that efforts my brain,
that the courts are not the place to mitigate overly partisan districts. The only place to do that and at the ballot box. So according to John Roberts. The only way to get a fair district is to win an election in an unfair district. pretty much sums up what Democrats are facing in the next several elections? Should we not pass the John Louis rights act. If we do not pass this bill, it'll be the good, though one of the worst mistakes, any political party has ever made it we had. This is having a unified control government. We have not had it for a decade this situation. Its fleeting and we won't have it again? Not me not, for a very long time very possibly and like I don't remember, I'm gonna give very worked up about
that's probably constructive, but does not. We have an opportunity to do something that will change the trajectory of american politics in a way that, Oh give us at least the opportunity to address things like healthcare, climate change, everything else, but it requires this and it begins in people get bored by process that's why I'm it? When I talk about the economy, someone healthier. Yes, that's true, but process is a predicate for policy, and We want to put in place a policy that we want. We have to fix the process of Chinese where before us, we could do it in a day if we reject it. just get your magic uses, a man I will say others. We, we always say that and because they have outer dialed Einstein, there are four. There are a lot of other Democrats or hiding anonymously behind cinema imagining So we have a lot of work to do to get people there. But this is once in a generation opportunity
and we're trying to sound the alarm on this, because I don't want people to be surprised by it and I know there's a thought right. I like Trump is gone. Things are good Biden's. There we can sort of relaxed, we cannot relax. This is- and this is why this is one of the reasons why I like, like two thousand and twenty two is going to be incredibly important in before we get there Joe Biden, the Democrats trying to pass this piece of legislation is going to be in doubly important just as important in many ways as getting rid of Trump, was in end twenty, so everyone potential this will be talking about this again and again in the months to come. When we come back, we will have Dan's interview with journalist, for I today puts it Is broadly by huge, sleep some ideas for jokes, slash, add introduce one not being able to.
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save dotcom, Slash cricket, for I today is a journalist and author she's, the creator and host of our body politic, assimilated, public radio, show and pocket which is centred on reporting on not just how women of color sparrows major political events today, but how their impact in this very issues fry while Bonaparte's. If America thank you so much glad to be here. for I wanted to start by. Talking about the conversation you ve been leading. In your industry, for a long time now about presentation and how newsrooms are often disconnected from the community's their covering how has the Trump years illuminated that problem in our people within usually responding to that conversation you're having first well. I think a lot of us are having it and part of my penalty is doing. Voter demographics and I've done it year in and year out for many different elections in different places I won't per
every on this, but I have been speaking about the fight Thirty eight newsroom into one. Sixteen, where there was no interest in really exploring the right. Of racial resentment as an indicator of voter preference, and rise of white nationalism and you know, had examples of both which are interconnected, but not the same also, I feel like in general, and I was very lucky. I should say to do to get to do a series on voter demographics, but it could have been much more robust if we had given it seems to breathe. That's my purse. Experience, but pretty much every black journals. you talk to many. Um Eighteen, o asian American, odd name. american journalist, even white journalist who seriously took on the topic of racial resentment and its weapons. Zation in politics were often shut of doing the kind of
stand, shall reporting that the issue demanded And so, in the end, it's not about journalist of color, his white journalists, it's like what is the frame for the way covered America, and so just recently, on my twitter feed, I looked at the past five, years of time magazine covers and found that there was no cover of white nationalism explicitly in any of the the covers and the one cover on Steve Bannon had the white, Sixteen times referring to the White House and wants referring to white nationalism, so basically I've been doing is calling bs on the framing of Paul tax and the way that we ve covered it. Both to diminish. I think some of the contributions of women of color, which is what I'm specializing in now, and also to your play: the rise of white nationalism, the unwillingness to work at politics through the frames versus the perfume of white nationalism. That is a product,
Newsrooms are not diverse enough. A product of a mentality about politics, its outdated what're? You ascribed that too. bigger than just that includes, but it, but maybe bigger than just representation within the newsroom yeah. Absolutely, I think it's a frame. I call this frame establishment whiteness, which essentially one of the construction It affects a lot of newsrooms, which is the idea that whiteness in and of itself is unremarkable and in fact, normative and because its native, it doesn't have to be reported on as a thing in itself. So black, this is often reported on badly, who were in biased way is. But it's reported on extensively to the point where I feel like black people are often problem ties it's like the problem with Erica cities and, implicitly how its governs like the problem. Is black people don't how their stuck together we're nobody asked the problem with domestic terrorism and then said
it's going on white nationalism. Why has that cover not been in any the major magazines I mean that's pretty astounding. So if white people treated the way black people are by supposedly objective newsrooms? There would first of all just be coverage of white, the good bad in the ugly but White MRS not covered as a category which to me is a huge blind spot in the in the coverage It really undermines political reporting because White national We are a group of american voters. our voters who are motivated by certain sentiments and beliefs, and during the many sixteen election, interviewed a woman in the LAS Vegas area, who was told repeated we in both business context and personal context, that the reason to vote for tromp was to prevent the dilution of the White Race That's not the the rise of white nationalism in politics. I dont know what it is, and I think we didn't give enough heft to that
of narrative, which is also about white people who reject white nationalism and supremacy you know she rejected it and whether people were embracing it or rejecting it. We didn't get enough of those voices. Over the last four years. How much have you seen? The into Do you come to terms with this challenge? Is I experienced and talking to journalists of color over the last four years? Is the people LISA rise. Everything that's happening rightly surprise. I was capital. Last month, we surprised by trumps election. We surprised by how the Republicans embrace tromp on capital fell over the years, but the disease, makers in many cases are in most cases. I guess in a lot of these networks and newsrooms are still white people and Have you seen these newsrooms these executive? begin to seriously Russell with this question and addressed it in some way in their coverage. It in their staffing, staffing, I think, is
little bit of a too soon to say, because there's major staff changes coming up. You know, first of all, after every election there's a lot of movement in political reporters. It's when people move on to take new jobs, etc, but all there are positions open for the head of news, ABC, there's leadership? You know why, seeking to impose CNN Reuters, Vocs Huffington Post. The list goes on I times so this is a sea change in the industry of journalism. Were all of these leadership positions are open, so now would be good a good time for leaders in journalism to open themselves up to who is considered a leader, but I think you can any one in the sea at any company not empower them to make new decisions, so you could change.
the race and gender of every position to some one else of someone up you know another race or gender and still get the same outcomes. If you don't have a sense of inquiry, out the truth. So to me, really it's like: what is your enquiry about the truth? How are you, unbiased? I dont like the term objectivity, because it's been used in ways that are patently not objective. You know, In my case, you know name silver and I had these sort of running discussions about race in politics and how we covered them. But in the end he called the Trump campaign evil and made a big point of it on. The pod cats- and I was like so is this- why we can't talk about it, so you can have this big reveal at the end. That's not
trinity. So I think when you look at the constructive objectivity is failing, but the constructive inquiry of saying: why do people vote the way they vote? How do I segment? You know what is often classified as one group of orders. You know, white evangelical Protestants are in a very such a voting block at this point, but there are many differences within them. So it's about treating but with respect in its about treating people as individuals, not statistics, statistics are great, but we have You know the story that gets us there. It's very plays a very important point what you said about adjective, because it the way that mostly body commonly understand journals objective. In this day and age, there is parties in journalism that can be right. Being left wing can be opinion. Then there is cornerstone, objective journalism and I could be which originate, there are times washing imposed, ABC and that what you often here, people want to give more objectivity and journalism, Keyword, Spain,
I that is not necessarily a good thing. I'm less worried about the I mean the concept of objectivity doesn't work for me for this reason, which, that it it ask that you leave the yours you're culture in your past, behind which, frankly, I dont see journalists doing when they go out in the field. A lot of the reporting on low income people working class people and people of color, which are not the same group but interconnected in various ways, is very anthropic, ethical like oh, We're going to this dangerous black neighbourhood, to talk to people and to the point where wrote a report for Harvard Schoenstein Centre and why, of the parts of the report was talking to a woman who had been forced to go basically as the black body of a white reporter two black neighbourhood but when she was sent into the pit mass car and dragged into a bathroom. No one was there to protect her. You know that the mean to be
black woman in do field, reporting is patently dangerous and many different types of unpleasant incidents have happened over. horse. But that's part of my job and I sign up for those dangers. What I would I get it really irked by is that the constructive objectivity itself becomes weapon ized in newsrooms to prevent the kind of reporting on talking about two to prevent the kind of report That really does take you into the field and to dealing with people who are unpleasant unpalatable etc. So so you know if we can reform the whole idea of objectivity and make it meaningful great, but right now what we have is a concede. That is we used to prevent coverage in various ways. yes, and so I go for were fairness or impartiality. As the language I choose, you know if we want objectivity not to be bankrupt, we have to act differently.
One of the challenges of the corner about objective model of journalism is sort of the both sides dynamic, and one of the things that a lot of our listeners had been very concerned about effort from all journalists about. Is that because now ass, we have sort of comforts of some people come to terms with the idea that there is a very virulent growing strain of white nationalism, the Republican Party, and so now we have to treat white nationalism Quarterboat objectively, as opposed to calling it out we now have some sort of moral clarity, but how do you think about that here I mean, I think, that objective, journalism and, and I've done twenty five years boarding on white, nationalist and supremacist. I will to treat them impartially, which includes saying in some cases this group kills people, or you know
in Vienna, you part of being impartial is actually stating what's happening and not not sugar coding it. So, I'm me, you know, we're in one case a woman from the area nation, which was disbanded because they killed people. and were soon out of existence in civil court, said, that the reason that she granted the interview was to recruit followers and that let me really understand that I also could not make her an anti hero. She was a very compelling She would make a great movie. She was from a wealth family said The area nation was her. True home talked about throwing the hammer at this summer. Hammer Tarzan like she was sickly, like a Lenny rife install you know character, but I dont want to portray her as someone who is leaving the good life you know, I'm gonna be honest about her life, but I'm not going to valorize her, and so I think what actually happens. Sometimes people are afraid of covering this, because I dont know how to
text realise the fact that they were perfectly No employ aid well off People who join these extremist movements if we Our brain around that then we just have It makes sense out of the fact that some people choose this. Some people make it. It's not like you know it's not by accident and that's ok. If we can, if we can do endless crime coverage on the evening news, we can cover debate EC terrorism through the lens of white nationalism, and it requires a bit of discipline, there are sort of two. Ought, I think, to sort of polar opposite tides of journalism happens. There is If the man on the street, it's the New York Times, diner story that we make fun of a lot here, you just go: go to a diner in everyone's. We both Naga hats on it s about this electronic, and then there is dad. I journalism readjust digging into the crosstown of poles or whatever else
How do you find a balance between those two to tell an accurate can actual life story of what is happening in America, yeah I love using both data and field reporting, because you Also mean data is flawed. Just like interviews are flawed. Sometimes people lie to you. You do your best to figure out when they're lying and when they're not lying, based on context and evidence, and at the same I'm people also lie to pollsters, which were increasingly finding out, or play the mechanisms dont track certain populations. Well, you know people without landlines, etc. So I really who's. The two types of journalism to reflect on each other, so that I can puzzle out what the what the truth is, and I So don't pretend to have a lie, on the truth all the time, if I'm not certain about something, I'm not certain, but I I all
to spend time with people where they are so I go to mosques. I go to evangelical churches. I go to people's places of work. I go to county republican meetings because I dont want to interview someone in a diner. I want to talk to them where they live, where they pray, where they they have family so that I know what the word that they're saying mean to them. It gives me so much more context. If we were, if we, the political community, the journalism community were up to the moment of dissecting what was under guarding the Trump movement? Two thousand. Sixteen. Do you think we are better prepared? for this next time around to cover the next tromp or another politician. Who is part of that same movement? I think we're gonna get prep plenty of active whether we like it or not. I mean the reality. Is Trump is gone, but Trump ISM isn't, as we ve seen from you know, the way
Marjorie Taylor Green was able to sway members of her own party and the there's a tick tock of a asked coming out of the siege of the capital, so we have the luxury of not dealing with this. Now will we deal with Well, it depends. I mean first of all as someone who has done primary source reporting dangerous and its time consuming the data reporting on. Why extremists, you know which is in and of itself a huge thing. People scraping variant you know video facebook posed etc it's a very skilled endeavour and So I think that you have to in order to really understand the story, have some basic understanding of technology and social forms where to find information, and you know how to safely into you people, if you choose to do the primary work, but I also want to be clear that you know. I think that the path
miss the story of white nationalism, but I think that the more important story and the story always in politics is power who hope that is why so white nationalism is just a tool to her? power. You know it's a too. To hold political power, even when you dont, when it democratically. And power takes, is all about power, so theres many ways to gain power. You can get through a democratic vote, you can gain gain it through weapon eyes ideology or race, and so it's just part of what we should be doing as political reporters is to understand the many different mechanisms people used to hold power, ethical and unethical I thank you so much majority us before I let you go. How can our listeners follow her work and support what you're doing. Thank you so much. I do apart asked called our body politic. You can find it at our body. olitic dot show and we dive into basically how women
color hold power. and the ways in which it sometimes different than men. or white Americans or both and- and I think that to him- the stories of how women of color game. Hold and use. Power is also something that we need to plug into frightening. So much is such an important conversations and I look forward to darken you again. Like one thanks so much begs to fry for joining us today. Everyone has a great weaken and we'll talk you next week by everyone promoter vents book pod, save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate produced Jordan, Waller its mixed edited Andrew Chadwick Tiles Is our sounded junior to tell you so mediator, Katy Long, roman puppet Dimitrios,
I rest and injustice how for production support into our digital team, illogical, normal Conan, Yell freed in my look him, who film and upload these episodes is videos every week, Hey everyone: there are great new t, shirts and more in the crooked store new designs and abolish to filibuster. Why don't have one of those teacher and now come on now, where's that and another one make democracy easier and organizing works. Just a few, These are just some of our favorites and, like always, we donate from every order to vote writers which is great upset, have good people registered check it out had to create that comes. I store now to shop high its autumn,
Cox from with friends like these we're doing a series of episodes, exploring reconciliation and forgiveness between people, between races, between countries in marriages in the criminal justice system, and even what it would mean to reconcile our relationship to the planet and a small spoiler that might be one of the trickier ones. With friends like these seeking forgiveness, wherever you get your podcast, everyone is Brian, with cricket president binders already halfway through his first hundred days. New season of Rubicon we're going week by week assessing all of binds early decisions to see if they meet the moment. That means covered relief, stewed loan forgiveness, climate action, schools, foreign policy. and getting all the right people into the right jobs to join us on Rubicon. New episodes drop every Friday subscribed to Rubicon an apple podcast Spotify.
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Transcript generated on 2021-04-11.