Jon, Jon and Tommy discuss Trump's unconscionable Muslim ban and the politicization of national security. They're joined by The Guardian's Sabrina Siddiqui to discuss the global reaction to the EO, and then later by former White House lawyer Danielle Gray to discuss the EOs and Trump's impending Supreme Court pick.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Welcome to plug save America. I'm John Fabbro, I'm John love it on time the door on the plight. Today we have political reporter, the guardian, Sabrina, Siddiqui and former white.
This lawyer to President Obama, friend of the pod, Danielle Gray, huge friend of God,
Before we begin a few announcements, Tommy want to take first big announcement, guys crooked media is empire, is growing. Today we announced a new show called pod, save the world
the idea behind the show is I was
not someone that was particularly focused focus on foreign policy for most of my life and then I spent four
working in the White House with the National Security Council and was in
in some of the you know
the date of Bin Laden operation. I was sitting there in the situation room and was in me
is that Syria and IRAN in some of the hardest topics we faced and it was
it's fascinating education of a lifetime, and it was. I went from thinking that this
too complicated and boring in excess.
To me to the most important and fascinating you can be apart
I'm going to try to do a series of interviews with people who
with along the way, reporters and others who are
with the in those meetings to bring you guys behind the scenes into what it's like
how these decisions get made in the stories of the people who make them. So please, subscribe,
pod save the world's eyes? Now I'm nineteen on I tunes now guys. I see the world. The first episode drops on Wednesday, with Jake Sullivan, who is Hillary Clinton's top adviser in a day
National security advisor in the White House right. He was Joe Biden, Son Ash gosh there. It was excellent. Alright, pods
The world goes subscribe, also
keep subscribing rating reviewing pods of America and the I tunes store, if you can so we can, you know get back to the top the charts again, yeah yeah! Listen! I don't like this number two spot doesn't feel like. I was frankly I don't know. What's going on with you people, but you're, letting us down. Failing failing Washington Post, I mean I'm Spahn, believe a bunch of just
Alright love it! You have your kidding, love it. You have a quick, you have a quick announcement as well. I have some good news for you. If you go to
bureau dot com, crooked. We are
merchandise. We've got pod, save America, shirts you've got a friend of the pod shirts got some. Some catchy
maybe maybe a certain straight shooter respected on both sides- is willing to share his brand with you. Some of the shirts may have some funny little description, love it. I are wearing shirts, but John forgot, which was mines in the wash which was upsetting source of contention this morning in the car love it looked like I'd killed pundit when he walked out of his house and said where's, the short here's, the thing I
spent about a week, doing a deep,
I've on how the hell you sell t shirts on the internet. First,
By the way, there are some companies in China doing some weird ship and we're not doing that. We're going this company called Cotton Bureau there in Pitts Burg and
judge us because they like the pod and they sent us some cool samples which you just been wearing for fine. Now we went to dinner last night. Tommy were pod. Save America's watchers stories, like body, won't tell the story, but I refuse to because people thought of I wore it to be, like I'm fishing, for people to recognize me, which hey I'm not doing and be is happening anyway. Donald Trump is banning. All Muslims can get to them yeah. This is so anyway Conyers great company. They sent us this great sure. It's out really excited to work with them. They help to set up the store really quickly. I don't thing we could have done it this fast without them. So by and support this company and these shirts, we think the really cool cotton bureau, dot com, slash cricket, the
in my announcement. More importantly, today is the last day of open enrollment, where you can sign up for the affordable care act to get insurance. Despite all the talk about repeal-
delay repealing go fuck yourself. All this kind of stuff is coming from the Republicans. If you
today for health insurance. You will have it for a year, no matter what at least so go get covered
John really went up in us with the altruism either way I feel like. That was also my announcement because I texted you to remind you about it and I was like we should do this on the pod. Alright, let's get right into it.
On Friday, president
Trump signed an executive order that indefinitely suspends the settlement of syrian refugees and temporarily bans people from seven predominantly muslim nations from entering the United States, with an exception made,
persecuted religious minorities like Christians,
the headline of Benjamin witnesses: lawfare blog on this, which you should all go, read excellent piece on this is malevolence tempered by incompetence, which I think is
place to begin on,
this band is all about. So a quick just a quick
history on how this happened. Of course,
in December of two thousand and fifteen Trump issued a statement and called for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States. This is, in course,
in response to the San Bernardino attacks, which were carried out by a US citizen and a permanent resident of Pakistan, not in the list and then on Fox.
Rudy Giuliani said a couple weeks ago, Trump called and said: quote:
to do a muslim band, how do I do
Uh. I just want to point out that Rudy Giuliani is a great great
well for us, because he cares more about seeming like an insider than actually being helpful to, who is France repeatedly not helpful through to any not helpful to anyone kind of just said just
daddy, we're down at this point well, and so the reason we're saying this too, is because the way has keep saying it's, not a muslim ban, it's not a band, nor is it muslim related and really really Giuliani. Just basically gave all the lawyers who wanted to say it is a muslim band, a lot of ammo by saying that the president himself said it was a. Must it's not just that public pr thing like it's going to be in lawsuit, it's gotta, be in the right spot. Rudy just said, will be in less it's so good for Rudy. So the way
about was Steve, Bannon Steven Miller,
Jeff Sessions aide,
the executive order. No one in the government was notified until shortly before the EO is final, no consultations with Congress. They said that
the term ministration is saying it was written in consultation with Congress. Keep in mind. Jeff sessions is still technically in Congress. So that's what they could be lying about, that
they also said it was for national security reasons that they didn't tell anyone, because all the terror
We have come into the country immediately. That Leap Frog, that fifteen month vetting process for refugees right, morons, unbelievable can grow,
or public and said that that was a joke. Basically, they were telling people that know NASH,
security reasons, is ridiculous,
legal guide. They didn't see legal guidance from the Office of legal counsel in the White House, though there not denying that or the
justice, and then
one point: the Department of Homeland Security said that it was not legal for the band to apply to people with lawful permanent residents, also known as
green card holders, and then
and in Miller over ruled them. What we think is
what you want about why this is stupid, yeah I mean is that there's so many reasons why this is a bad idea, but the first one I want to talk about is the fact that members of ISIS are cheering for the
policy literally on social media. You have them calling it a blessed band and they're, comparing the propaganda value of this muslim band to the Iraq war. That is a frightening thing.
Others are saying that they're making
true Anwar Lachey Awlaki, who is one of the
dangerous members of Al Qaeda, their lead,
again this they're making his predictions come true that the US would turn against its muslim citizens. So the problem with this band is from a policy.
It doesn't make any sense right. They cite
in the EO, though
it was a refugees who committed the nine slash, eleven attacks, none of the countries those individuals were from are covered in this band, they've sowed
Arabia, Egypt, more broadly,
the biggest problem we have in United States. The thing that literally keeps national security officials up at night are homegrown extremists, people who are living here who become disaffected, who
Goodnight listens right for citizens who look at you know
this propaganda online and they become radicalized because they feel like there is a war between the east and the west, and they are soldiers in that war and
people are going to be further.
Medicalized and driven away from the communities we need them to assimilate into by this order. It is a horrible idea.
I have a million more reasons, but I want to check if you want that one. Just one fact that I saw that I thought was pretty compelling is that out vastly more people are accidentally killed by toddlers with guns than by
refugees intersects, just no is not. This is uh.
Looking for a problem. So we can. You also talk about 'cause. I think some people would say. Obviously, people coming from
countries that are terrorist hotspots should be vetted, and Trump has told people that
basically we're just letting people into the country with
very little vetting and that we need better vetting. So what are the current procedures in place? Because I don't know if people understand how stringent yeah they are
right now and the reason is policies. This is always been a policy chasing a headline right because the ref
Vetting process is actually very long and very onerous, and
if you are a terrorist who just wanted to get to the US to commit an act in kill yourself in the process. There's a lot faster ways to get here, but for
PAMELA, syrian refugee named Mustafa, has soon wrote a piece for political about the vetting process. He was a part of it. He said he was interviewed.
Five times over fifteen months in person over the phone by the UN by the USA. They asked this
politics. Politics hobbies is opinions, his love life, no less
Four government agencies had the opportunity to screen me by the time I received an offer to live in the USA. Usa fischels in charge of my case knew me better than my family and friends. Do right, like the vetting is
extreme. It takes a long time. I
personally argue that we're not letting enough refugees into this country given
we have a role or
part of why the serious situation is so bad or some of the other countries affected. Like a rock a country, we invaded we're, keeping out interpreters who helped our army at the time. Yemen another place, we bomb the shit out of
Course of the last decade, people are so desperate
you can't get in, so I want to
level in a security level we're not doing any
with this order, seemingly to keep people out. We seem to be doing a whole lot too.
Create more extremists in the process. Now I saw
a bunch of conservatives on twitter and then Trump said this himself in the statement that the White House released yesterday. Well, Obama did
for six months in twenty eleven for refugees coming from Iraq. So do don't talk outrageous
we ordered a review of what was called a special immigrant visa, and this was a program created to help Iraqis who helped us start during the war to get the United States. It was a very narrow
review order that definitely did
slow down the refugee process for about six months. The reason
He did. It was responsive, specific threat. Information to guide to Iraqis were
arrested in Kentucky for plotting attacks were like whoa, let's slow down, let's take a look what's going on here, but it wasn't
it was very narrow. Trump's order applies to seven entire country, one hundred and forty million people right yeah, one hundred and thirty hundred forty million people. So we slowed. We did not stop resettlement, and you know people criticized at the time and it was in response to a specific problem and something that needed to be tightened up. The exact thing
that these conservatives are claiming Obama never did right, there's a certain brand of person on right now that thinks that the way you kind of I don't know defend Trump,
ten like what's happening, isn't deeply troubles, be, like you guys,
reacting. This is exactly what Obama did, but you don't care because you're, just a bunch of liberals in the media is biased. Here's the thing! First of all
That's not even there, then for some of them there's any other will like this is what's going to re, Elect Trump, that they hate that I can't even I can't even process that today, but it's the this idea that that
they are holding Trump to a different standard. First of all,
right! These are different things, but also
I can't believe we have this impression that Donald Trump wanted to put in place a muslim ban. He
about a muslim land. Here for two years I started with, like the statement is still on the website: Muslim.
It's still on the campaign once again banish on the campaign website, but the judicial judicial branch is no longer on Whitehouse DOT, Gov, so priorities in order with those goons. Several like I do want to dress your point, because there are people who are
actively say like
You know you're not listening to Trump voters. There's people are scared out there. You know,
That's not come down hard on this. I just want to say I don't give a sh,
You know I mean I don't care what you think the politics could be. I don't think any of us can figure this out. We should
this on a moral level and we should respond from a place of authenticity, because these are our values, and these are the things we care about right and if you disagree, Google
Saint Louis Manifest that is a boat filled with German.
Refugees that were turned away in nineteen, thirty, nine by the UN, Cuba and Cuba. A quarter of them died in the holocaust. We should not fuck around with
situations like this, where people's lives are at risk
it will not. Only those people will be put at risk
It will harm our reputation in perpetuity. There's a certain kind of this, like idea that you guys are playing right into Trump's hands like look trump is in
in a certain way in that always
Wedge issues right, gay rights,
wedge issue: abortion still a wedge issue, but Trump and Bannon are just being like
we're going to turn core tenants of America into wedge issues. Well, you know what we just have to jump into that
rap like there's, nothing else. Well, this is maybe I mean I will say
We are on the White House. Special Eu Tommy saw these decisions being made every day and national security, but it's like there are
tough decisions around national security, where you have to decide how to balance liberty with secure
and sometimes you have to make some concessions on that right to keep us safe, and maybe you know
like even the guy who wrote the the lawfare blog that I was just talking about, he was like look. I am saying how bullshit this this band is he's like
for non criminal detentions, I am forced,
these things that you you know. I thought it so there's a lot of tough things that the government does, that a lot of conservatives are people who are in the interest of national security would say yeah I'm for that, but this band is stupid. I mean, and- and I think, if, if Trump really wanted to do this because of a specific threat right, if they could have the truck, could have given a speech
Friday saying we are not at war with the muslim world. This is not about religion. I am doing this for specific reason. We also would have completely
agreed and flipped out about it, but it goes to show that they did this. They do
specifically to freak people out and to cause chaos and to be cruel. Publicly like this was. This was so sloppily poorly done that
It was not. It was not a well thought out thing in any way, shape or form, so they have no respect for the institute.
If the government at any level, not even from the ones they now control, so they
Don't use the the you know the the systems designed to make sure that these orders make sense our constitutional tattered cetera. They also are showing a profound lack of respect for the people that are enforcing it they're putting their force.
Government employees at the local level to decide whether or not they're supposed to listen to
periers or obey a court order or talk to the congressman who came to the airport like there's. Just
profound lack of respect for Americans for Americans for american government servants and also especially for these desperate people trying to get into the country? I got you
moral high horse yeah feet off the ground. I that presidents make
regions the foreign policy based on US interests. It right is a selfish
decision making process, frequently about what's good for the country
I've seen President Obama make many of those decisions and we have not gotten involved in every
across the world. Look at Syria, right, like we are record, is not perfect, but I just think
This policy is so dumb; no one has been killed in the: U S in a terrorist act by anyone who immigrated or whose parents have from the the
countries targeted by this EO right. It is slapdash half assed
and you have countries that are left out like Saudi Arabia, where the majority of the nine slash eleven hijackers came from and people are pointing out. Rightly, I think that Trump's business interest there and, like you know what the bigger problem is
the US can't fight terrorism alone with you as troops globally, we need partners right. We need partners like Pakistan who help.
Deal with the Taliban or Al Qaeda who needs to have the political capital to work
their people to allow us to do certain things we need to do and for them to help
buy them. Taking certain actions when we alien
their entire populations when we give their governments political cover to tell us to go away in perpetuity we're making ourselves less safe.
I think we should have elected an old, daddy racist to be President states. I think he's making a fucking mess of it. Part of the problem all right. Let's talk about some of the results of the band and the reaction love it. You went to
lax on Saturday evening with Emily, and you guys did little protesting, we did look
my usual Saturday. It's funny, you know there really is something happening with people going to these protests, people that would normally it's awesome and like I would not have gone to
a year ago. I'd never got to me that Saturday night to protest. Anything like
going there to fly to God for Saken points is a God forsaken place when they're letting the refugees in but-
uh yeah. We went and we protest and um talk to anyone.
Trying to get sure to get you to the yeah. I don't know that we are we so I talked to so talk to this.
Such a bunch of people there. But there's one woman who was telling her story. She was just there to pick up her uncle
Billy was coming in from IRAN
and she showed up
at seven hundred pm the day the was signed and she was there for a full twenty four hours, and
family was waiting at home. They were excited to see him. The table was set, they had like made his favorite food that, like kids, were staying up late and she just never left the airport because he was stuck there.
And she was just exhausted and and- and you know, she'd been crying and her.
Family had no idea what was going on, but it was incredibly
call to see how supported she felt.
She spoke at this. There was several hundred
maybe one thousand people gathered at the international terminal and there are all these
this woman got up there in spoken and it was
incredibly moving, because then it's just like I just I just came to the airport to pick up my uncle
transported her in there were these
dozens of lawyers sitting around a sign that said, if you know, if you need to go, help come here and all these people
to translate. There are two
congress they're kind of trying to get the border get the
customs officials like give them any information which they didn't really didn't. Have
couldn't give because it was chaos, but
inspiring thing is that people are turning out to protest in a new way like there is a like there. There's black
we're. Building on the success of black lie flat black lives matter on
union organizing even like occupy Wall Street, which I think was was still a contender. That's part part
this new growing movement, but a spirit
culture of protest, taking taking hold
people who never would protest is incredibly powerful and I think barring
everything is getting much worse and you know we're not in the prediction business anymore, but
the single most important thing we can do is figure out how to harness this new
energy and turn it into votes in two thousand and eighteen like this. Is there millions of
people are taking the streets as a matter of habit now which
ever has happened before, and it is this right there I mean. One thing is: there's more of us than them, and the second thing is the the greatest danger to Donald Trump's presidency is a unified opposition and he knows that and part
he's doing this morning in his some of his responses, he's just trying to pick off people left and right like he, he
he dismisses John Mccain and Lindsey, Graham speaking out against this as well. They were former presidential candidates. He tries to single out Chuck Schumer's fake tears. You know to try to get him, so he tries to attack that the Washington Post and New York Times, like he's, trying to pick people off left and right and they're saying it was just a few people that are protesting. It's just a few people who are upset and they try to minimize all this stuff because what he
Nick Knowledge is that there is.
Unified opposition against this. That is, you know
thousands of people at airports across the country, not just in liberal coastal cities, but in the center of the country right by the way, thanks all the friends of the pot sending US pictures and also who came up to us at these various events and things telling us that you know it means a lot
also just sending us pictures of wearing them. An democratic politicians that have gone in speak, spoken out and the tech community has. A lot of people have spoken out, some of that they were pushing. Something have managed to get these kinds of words out. I don't really think there's no certainly biggest idea
but it, but that goes to show two. How protests in opposition works right? They were completely silent. Republican politicians at the beginning of this,
Howard, Paul Ryan was out there anyway, like absolutely were for the band, and now Paul Ryan is behind more conservative. That is really conservative members of the public and party because he went out there early and I think now, Mcconnell Mcconnell didn't Mcconnell, is now more against it than Ryan. Is I haven't see Marco Rubio's face on the back of a milk carton at the Bristol Farms has a Marcus ribbons. I had said well said Marco Rubio last seen endorsing from holding a newspaper
and also I met
maybe out of sorts and confused, because he almost showed backbone but didn't in the Rex Tillerson vote. Also,
under Marcus Rubenstein will run from reporters the reason.
The reason I felt so feel so strongly about not
finger finger and put it in the wind on the politics of these sorts of issues. Early is because I think when people see this unified opposition, it moves them quickly. It can not only move lawmaker opinion, but it can move public opinion quickly, so we should stand up like people
people want to get on board with something when it's principled right- and I think you know
it- is like these stories are appearing at the airport right. One of the best ways we build ties with countries is student exchange,
cultural exchanges when
you tell a key
Teran, who is attending MIT, that he can't come back? That is
Herberger's this, like a rainy woman's coming a Harvard medical to work on a cure. A particular says that that the guy around Oscar for hardy who's nominated for best foreign language film for the Oscar like may not be able to come to the Oscars. Now I don't like seeing films with words on the bottom. I mean I don't come here if I can read, but
still. I still think it's wrong. Do you think
Arco has enough cash to not show up on his credit card forms. Where he's staying right now and then I see bouncing around like the fugitive, but it is, it is it's it's the activism in the in the organizer the protesters were pushing the politics rare. You thought democratic politicians were like elbow,
each other like tripping over each other to get to the airport. This will great good, and you know what Chuck Schumer's been great on this like he was. You know they were
he was like genuinely mills, and I think, like I know, there's a certain gonna New York Jew that, like you talk about the Emma Lazarus Palm and you get you get misty. Well, you know, I think you on this political front, I mean what scares me about this is, is clearly
this process like Steve, Bannon and Steven Miller. Writing this yo, not sharing with any the relevant agencies. Writing it so poorly that there was just mass confusion like eight
it's very easy to have ideas and government. The execution is hard, which is why you vet things, because there's second and third order consequences that you don't anticipate like millions of people
Green card, not knowing, if they're allowed back in right or confused customs and border, can't Kansas thirty one year old, graduate of Duke couldn't come up
executive order without the help with US government mentored by Richard Spencer, by the way tough hit on Duke, but so but the other thing uh,
on the politics of this. This is where I do think Steve. Bannon knows exactly what he's doing, because we
making it incredibly like european leaders, are facing huge.
Threats greater than us because of their borders know people can flow through your far more easilly they're, easy
get there from Syria right there,
trying to secure their borders and keep their people safe, while maintaining their values. When ban
is giving the right wing Party across Europe
By doing this, shit
need to show as Americans, that this is actually not what we stand for. Donald Trump is not putting forward our values in our beliefs to help these guys abroad as well. So, and so all of this is working in a sense, the ACLU sued
a judge granted federal judge granted a national stay on the deportation part
in Boston. They granted a stay on both deportation and detention.
By the way they still use raised
twenty million. Now I don't know some kind of crazy amount of money and has
one hundred and fifty thousand new members, it's probably more by now, so that that's really hopeful and
early today or last night. The White House in DHS basically walked back the part of the band that has to do with
permanent residents green heart of green card holders. They say it was never part of that which is a lie of course right there in their line yeah as Jake Tapper to this morning said they told him over the weekend. It did include green, her car, her listen. Of course, green card holders were being detained all weekend long and being asked like interesting questions, and this kind of ad hoc loyalty test which is rich.
Because they've already gotten the
Are they already went through the process? I mean green Card Holders America's there
I mean they work here. They live here. They can do everything but vote and serve on the jury like that. It's ridiculous who's, also with some of the global reaction to this already. You know it's been criticized by it's been mixed, Theresa may and Merkel, Justin Trudeau's, welcoming all the refugees to Canada a.
Back in or and have threatened to retaliate by barring american citizens from their countries and
if you were saying Tommy ISIS was just posting the stories with no comments. Well, you know, I understand the muslim world yeah, it's been, you know, mixed reviews, like ISIS, seems to love this up border, but the rest of the muslim community. There are some of the world's opposed to it. Yeah they got my best. Yes, my god, the bathroom searing it out. So I got that yeah I got. I think what happens
Where does this go from here? Do we think
I know that some now some Republicans are saying
in Congress leading Republicans that Trump has to revise the Eoi
Well, does he do that? Does he do they? Just move on? We also use announcing Supreme Court pick,
tonight. At eight pm, CST seems like a effort to change the sub right, yeah yeah yeah. Everyone knows that when not when something's going really well, you move up your Supreme Court pick to change the news I think they're, showing with their actions it's funny yeah. I I they can.
This is a lot anytime. You know Congress can supersede and eggs
order anytime they want, but they don't want if they just want to. They just want to get out of this mice. My fear,
is that they just continued that countries to the list right it doesn't
Sensa Pakistan isn't on there,
given the stated rationale for all these other places, so thick there's ways than to expand. This continue to demagogue and I have Eric Trump calling up Eric Trump calling up as his like people in tax. I mean it be a shame if we can get a hotel, open, yeah it, but in my I'm joking
the challenge they have right is like George Bush
credibility, never recovered from Hurricane Katrina 'cause. They looked unbelievably incompetent and I think that if there's a
away from this
events of the last few days. It is these people are utterly incompetent and they
in charge of our country and they're up in week. One I was saying that the other night as like what would Donald Trump say about this if he was a citizen on Twitter, the hand, the angle he would probably take as what a mass chaos look at the airports, complete incompetence right and it's not only that it was malevolent and cruel and against our values like you're saying to me, but it was so stupidly axe, here's a thing that, let's use the thing that like we have to also keep in mind, though, is
preciousness, incompetence and
authoritarianism are very, very old
friends like these things. Go together like the having having unexpect.
Announcements that green cards don't apply, that strikes fear in the hearts of people
having incompetence, gives you the ability to say like. Oh, we need more power. I mean one of the things that happened after Katrina. Is the Bush administration playing the part of the reason it happened? Is we didn't have enough authority right? That's that so we all
also just need to be aware like these. Are these are old problems right, the problem of an incompetent?
bumbling authoritarian impulse,
Chris Tomlin, I gotta say about it, and I also think that you know we should
prepare that if a god forbid a terrorist attack does happen,
this. The question in the debate will not be as easy as it was this time, because this was in response to basically nothing and when
when there is some attack and God for Blake, God help us if it's a refugee or someone of these countries, it's going to be
it could be worse next time. Is it going to use it? That's why that's why they won't? They won't they'll, just revise the Eob given leave themselves the ability to add countries. I mean, there's all these all these uh
and poorly written language inside this sort of Steven,
special, this Jeff sessions special, really to give them the chance
future to basically
and I think Dan, appropriately
on Thursday. Not one Democrat should vote for Jeff sessions. I did not care. If you see him in the House Jim, he is a man
s to our entire country in everything we stand for and he should not be voted with his aides. Steven Miller, who is you know, mind meld with sessions that wrote this executive order sessions is a dangerous person. I don't care that he was like nice to a lot of senators. I'm sure he was a nice personally to a lot of people. That's wonderful, but
he his views on government power and authority as very dangerous to need to make an argument. It's not an argument. It's a pressure thing if it
red votes for Jeff sessions. They're, not a fucking Democrat they're done we're done we're not going to support them. We're going to we're going to marry them. We're done no scanner
just be nice to give people a reason why they should go against him
so they're? Not listening is a shift there. Bunch of bunch of any Democrat considering voting for Jeff sessions is calculating morons, so let them calculate if a Democrat
for Jeff sessions. They will lose the support of millions and millions of different jobs or no t shirts. For you, it is not a friend of the pod uh, not a friend of the pod, where I go. People follow,
frankly so test may suffer, but you've done this listeners. Ok, when we come back, we will have Sabrina Sadiki of the guardian. This is pod. Save America stick around which more great show coming your way. Positive.
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kind of you know. We don't know that, but probably get a nice one there, but the we should send her some nice flowers, as I screwed up the last decade when we worked at our house for a week without leaving well now we have to because when she listen to this podcast, there's no flowers on the table. It's going to be a problem thanks, dot com, dot com with us on the PA. This morning we have from the guardian. Sabrina's.
The friend of the trend of the pod joined us before on the keypad one thousand six hundred days welcome back Sabrina
Add me on thanks, for
so I saw
in your twitter feed that you were at some of these protests in DC yesterday and Saturday or both. What did you see there? What was the? What was the mood? Well, I think that is becoming the new normal
in DC on the weekend is just see people scattered about with poster boards heading toward the White House or toward the US capital. I think one of the signs that really sums it up with protested
new brunch sort of Dc
any given day. We don't know what to expect in it. Yesterday Sunday there were hundreds of protesters who began at the White House to protest,
refugee and partial muslim ban that obviously dogs from signed Friday, and they from many of
also marched over that you had capital where there were
so there are a lot of emotional themes from people chanting. This is what America looks like.
Is singing on you know the national anthem and just trying to present a portrait of a diverse in America. I think the key question, though, is because
these people galvanized, and we certainly saw the biggest show that in the women's March the after Nog Oracion is, does it actually become a movement that translates to something more at the ballot box,
The question is: where does organizing go from here? Was the person
with the brunch sign, where they gain handsome that just felt like SA gave I'm just trying to check out what who's out there. You know what are we doing? Well, I didn't get that up close and personal of a look. There were also a lot of dogs. It's some pretty good signage lot of them had a sweater that said, Trump doesn't even have a dog,
I think it's this way. I love that time that Paul Ryan. That was an interesting theme
in terms of extending the
the lady, the Republicans in Congress, who are here supporting or as silent as supporting that as a refugee band or silent all right in the was the first
high profile, Republicans and one of the only ones to immediately throw his support behind it? This executive order on Friday,
spring this time it was wondering what you're, seeing or reporting about the global reaction to this, especially from Majora
some countries or from
across United States are people feeling like we would.
The feel is there is reaction, then cost
in faster what what's going on out there. It's absolutely been both swift and classic with respect to how this is being received, it not to fight with the majority countries
maybe said? Listen communities who lives in around the world even in Europe. A certainly I've myself just heard him
meet me over there, undated by text, messages from
members of mine who live in London, asking you know what this means for them and just what the split split
being in America right now, because the perception globally is very much that this isn't
and why the right you know as the debate over semantics at in place here, not withstanding. I think, because this is someone who campaigned openly on a muslim man and and even if this is
certainly not spending all this and immigration to United States, it
The language was so clear that you know
minorities would be given preference and that, in order to be prioritized
to be a religious minority and obvious, you were talking about seven, the majority countries that, because that's walking as close as you can the line of not having to say the word Muslim. You could probably try and survive some kind of legal challenge. I think you know you're also being back. Last word, political leader is, you know, treat the man in our poll for the guardian wanted to dig into her own conservative and he's
criticizing her because she was here, of course, just the day before, or the day of one dollar trump signed this executive order and had condemned him.
So I think that really held his hand.
Yeah, and I mean the other thing is. That is. That is very much into the notion that this is going to be a president who is going to overtly target people based on their face and
also based on their nationality, and your I mean for some people have seen their on talking about potentially retaliating and all that probably last salad, other countries and responding in kind, which is very much a possibility. If there's, if there's an
Things are not allowed to come here yeah. I saw that that note about religious minorities, specifically Christians, getting preference, but it do. You have any sense,
If they would also include like Shiites,
or whites as persecuted minorities, because it seems like there are a lot of people
who are muslim, who are being targeted because they are
just minorities, but I don't know if there's any sense out of the Trump administration that those people might also get some sort of special treatment.
No there's. No sense of that. In fact, the only group that Donald Trump himself is singled out is christian, and I I think that you know you need only made out. So it's common sense
in the interview on the same day that they expected border was unveiled with the Christian Broadcasting Network and that's something you're fuming and on the campaign trail, and it was striking because there are. There are some reports that, for example, utilities would not be given our ties basin, even though the US government has openly said that you
There are victims of a genocide so quickly I mean we know there are very much doing this on the fly and it helps to say, but I don't think that all trump
getting into the weeds on who are minorities within Islam. I mean idea right now, just as he knows he doesn't have that understanding or that new one, and I think,
Rudy, Giuliani's comments were very telling when he was explaining this over the weekend on Fox NEWS.
Saying that Donald Trump had asked in and the other is for houses you a muslim band legally, so it's very clear and I talked to Lori the base. You know you could give advice on that, the one thing that they give them some confidence that not
they can relieve litigate any any of the actually fixing, as most of them in court is there's this pressure. Rich history of it happens all from the men that you could use the point to his intent here, which is to discriminate again.
I've noticed on Capitol Hill
There have been more republicans in the last twenty four hours who started to say that the Trump
Ministration needs to revise the executive order to to make it narrower. Do you get
sense, that this is
sort of a movement among Republicans, it's going to build. You think it's going to pressure trump to do anything. What's your sense of how the politics of this are playing out, at least among the Republicans welding, the silence for the first twenty four hours for most of them was telling because they were trying to get a sense of what is even happening so concerning to so many of them had been the fact that forget consulting Republicans in Congress, the White House didn't even consult the appropriate agencies, not even the use of the Department of Homeland Security. So I think that the question is
Are they just talking about green card holders who are clearly also being swept up in this order over the weekend? And now that's only administration is claiming that they're going to look into revising or Republicans also going to argue that be honest, green card holders and people have been vetted. Is it still too broad because they have supported and passed legislation that would ban
refugees from certain muslim majority countries and restrict even overall immigration from certain muslim majority countries? They did that in December of twenty fifteen after the attacks in Paris. So I it's one of the questions that was that posturing in the campaign, because all Trump had made
campaign your issue or are they at or are they actually now kind of? Looking at the end of the airport, and as this movement were talking about that mobilizing in and it's asking the politics and that and that and that question I don't think finance are there going to be back today and that people like myself, I think we'll be asking them a lot of questions as to how they could also.
Possibly argue that this is not a case of openly discriminating on the basis of religion and national origin, and not just you know some question of national
listen something's happened that I think may change the contours. Of this whole thing. Marco Rubio has emerged from hiding.
He is an easy and he has concerns hours to a dinner. Last. You cut, you covered the review campaign right. Yes, I did. I put my my ride like the resident review reporter. I think, because somehow people still look at him, then this sort of what will Marco deals? I actually think it's very very clear what he he he he's he's pretty
media query doesn't intend to verify the administration, but yes, at the recurring theme that I often get called to find the answer to listen.
Here's a cure, also just I don't want to- I don't give him short trip. He also has some unanswered questions. Unbelief
Well, never disappoints Marco Rubio Sabrina I just want to.
By asking you how you feeling? Well, you know
this is stuff, I I will tell you that I had texted. I was repeating some family members, my family, from block stun parrot.
Right, because the White House is signaling, they might add Pakistan to the list and
That would mean that our relatives who come to visit all the time can't do that. For who knows
along with a period- and it doesn't matter that you know, I don't want to make it just about anyone country, because those
who have been raised in the full committee is this. This is actually taken directly affects people that I have grown up with and and people that we are part of our communities who are trying to figure out. You know what this means for for their family member is that
I think that you know I I always said it holds debate. If we take him literally versus seriously, take him both ways and don't underestimate his potential to do everything that he campaigned on doing
So you know the everyone keeps saying. Well, maybe he won't call quite so far as what he campaigned upon, but really anything is possible and the fact that this is common within the first week of his presidency really could do on a task to worrying that this might just be the beginning. So you take it one day at a time, but I do think that you know this is seen that you're seeing are very encouraging that people are out there
and not just in democratic cities, they're out there all over the country. So I think that the question becomes again, though the key question is in: can people translate this? These protests into real action in Lynn
I'm trying in defeating some of these measures.
Actually would give people a lot more sense of security in their. But it's a start.
It is one day at a time dark Sabrina. Thank you for
Please come back again. It thanks
this is part of America. Stick around there's this great stuff, coming lots of great
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ok. So before we move on to our interview with Daniel Gray
let's talk about Eo'S in the Supreme Court, let's talk about Steve Bannon, our favorite
favorite right and the story that was out over the weekend that there was
Presidential memorandum on Friday that reorganized National Security Council,
headband and gets a seat on the principles committee yeah.
Explain how this works, so the National Security Council is essentially an entity that convenes all the relevant parts of the national security apparatus. So a principles,
meeting is when the National Security Advisor gets the Secretary of Defense Secretary of State, the DNA.
All those relevant people literally around a table in the way the situation room to talk about an issue and try to make decisions what they did over the weekend.
Was. They gave Steve Bannon a political hack, a permanent invite
literal seat of the table at those meetings and they removed the director of national intelligence in the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff. Ok, there allowed as needed,
let me just point out that almost every pc principals committee had ever been to begins.
With a intelligence overview,
through the military component. So, of course the chairman should be there. This is a huge break from precedent,
There are people out there trying to say well, Axelrod
attended a couple meetings like I was in those meetings, Gibson Axelrod or David Pluff,
occasionally attend national security meetings if there was an issue that touched on working with Congress
or rolling something out to the public, something we really needed to explain, it was rare and it was something we tried to prevent because you don't ever want politics to come up in those meetings. In fact, they're sort of
false piousness, where we try to prevent it. So
This basically means I think that foreign policy is getting run through ban it and
Sean Spicer, trying to say oh well, Steve Bannon- was in the navy for seven years, so it makes sense to be there. Meanwhile,
we are selling A4 Star General General Dunford, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, that he's allowed to show up as he asks it is the most ludicrous alls idiotic thing. I've ever fucking heard I love anything. Sean Spicer come on man laughable. Also,
oh, I remember a couple years back when it was reported that Axelrod might have gone to a national security meeting. There was like two
six of hysteria, Bob Gates lost his mind. You wrote a book called duty. He was box at Fox NEWS, did like fifty million segments about how by this guy's this guy is now running the National Security Council, the nationalist, I don't think I don't think this these up, this opposition on the level. I mean it's it it like that. We want to touch on this because this is
modifying politics as being
cornerstone of their foreign policy decision making. If Donald Trump wants to talk to Steve, Bannon or Jerrod Kushner
or Joe Schmoe on the street about foreign policy. That is his right, but
something that supposed to be sacrosanct about the White House situation, room deliberations where you're supposed to
based on your interests in
not re election, not politics, politics is
through every decision ever made like we can't pretend otherwise. But I sat in a million meetings and people like
Donna or Tom, Donovan or General Jones Wood NET
allow for a political debate to emerge in those meetings. It doesn't help by the way. Don't take us Obama hacks word for it right, like all the Bush people traveled in all the bush, people
there today: Josh Bolton is the age of staff in the Bush White House, all the other people are saying they would like car run in this meeting. Yes, they wouldn't they wouldn't let color of those meetings. They think this is unprecedented, and this is a this- is a bipartisan condemnation of this complete boy
and Steve Bannon, scary, white nationalist sympathizer is now running the National Security Council, and if you want to see, if you want to see like how well he's doing look no further than how the EO played out on how the muslim band played out over the weekend great great job, great job, Steve Bannon, more of that to come,
you know it. Now. I don't want to make my point. You just kept rolling
so you're fine, you feel good about. It must be so hard. Imagine imagine what happens. Let's do it, alright, we're back when we when we come back, we will have former lawyer to President Obama and good friend of the pod, Danielle Gray, and one last point I mean if you look, if you're a political
interfering in national security decisions, because you've muscled your way into a national security meeting. You have no business being apart of and you just want to feel comfortable,
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I feel like. I have my own Valentine's day: bundle right here in front of it on the pod. Today we have Danielle Gray, who was a lawyer in the White House when we were there looked at.
We're friends, and I just know that kind of character in this podcast, where I'm like arrogant in a bit smug straight,
Can you imagine that Danielle Danielle is also on the I'm just so excited that I thought was going to take me years to make the cut as a friend of the pod. So I'm just excited that there's a lot of legal news these first ten years,
you jump right to the front of the line. Let's
start with talking about the we're going to have originally just talk about Supreme Court stuff, but
since the executive order came out Friday banning refuge.
And people from muslim majority countries we figured, we should start there
you talk a little bit about the process of crafting an executive order in the way
I know this is an exciting topic, but
Yeah I mean I think. Ordinarily, this is probably not a very exciting topic, but I think you know this weekend highlights the kind of chaos and confusion an very real. You know, fear that can ensue in that process is abandoned, so you know our process generally was one that really dates back to the 60s, which is
that you would receive a draft executive order. Lawyers in the White House and at the Justice Department would review the executive order for legal concerns. You would then have the office of Management and budget circulate. That draft two different agencies within the executive.
Branch that might have interests or equities in the particular polisy desicion at at issue to determine whether there were any concerns. If you had concerns about how is being implemented or concerns about how would operate in practice- and you have this kind of back and forth so that, ultimately, when you handed the exam,
give order to the president? He could be assured that what he was signing had been reviewed for legality. That agencies that may have you know had concerns about it at those concerns were aired out before he was signing, and so that was the that was the general basic process that we follow
Did that happen with the Trump White House this to her all right? It's unclear! You know we. I think it's really hard to follow the news these days, but I think in the last forty eight hours we've heard varying reports. You know I think his press secretary said that there were national security concerns about
sing it with agencies? There was a unnamed senior official yesterday who said that the Justice Department looked at it. There have been suggestions that maybe the transition beachhead teams took a look, but you know I think I think it's it's. You know it's hard to tell. They could tell us whether or not the office of legal counsel wrote a memo to the president assuring the presidents of its form and legality, as is customary, they could you know, or reporter could certainly ask them that, and they could answer that question answer question
so what would happen? Look? This would have happened but, like let's say a bomb at the Bama White House produced this draft EO and it
cross your desk other than you know.
Literally setting yourself on fire inside the White House and running screaming out of the building like what would you do?
red pen like what would be. What would you do if I receive that executive order
it's a hard counter factual, let's just talk about the way it was drafted like say you agreed with the policy in principle, but
but you read the text of the E. Oh I mean was it 'cause, it seems like it wasn't very well written in the first party or listen thanks for fixing my question part of the reason that people have been talking about process here
It is not out of out of a sense of we did it this way. So you should too, the part of
reason is. If you're a lawyer in the administration, you want the president's policy agenda to succeed. What you, what you don't want to happen is the day after the President signs an executive order. Five district courts,
all around the country issue temporary relief in large parts of it. You know that that, as a as a former,
lawyer in the White House that I would have used that as a I failed to do my job part of my job was to make sure that anything that went out could withstand legal scrutiny and and to convey the importance of those legal considerations to the policy people who sometimes might disagree, who sometimes you might be looking to advance their. You know particular programmatic agenda, but that you don't making sure
after the policies and actions of the executive branch were not susceptible either to this kind of legal challenge or to some of the confusion, we're we're you had. You know administration officials having to clarify provisions of the executive order. You know on Sunday morning. Talk shows. You know that that to me what I
the view that, as you know, we let the president down yeah, maybe tell the department, following security like how to enforce this thing before you announce it.
Yeah. You were a White House lawyer. You are lawyer in the Justice Department, you are the cabinet secretary you're, now a partner at O'Melveny and Myers. You are the most
if I person we've ever had on the show, I'm not actually sure how we got you here. The one of the things we do is we asked you were involved in the vetting, a Supreme Court justices, including a lot I could just
again so to my or I'm just wondering what should
process, look like the last.
Weeks right. What do you think has been happening and how did you guys vet
those individuals before an announcement since apparently going to get on Tuesday,
sure. So you know, I think, I think in
ideal pre announcement? What you're? What you're, really trying to do in the White House is
to make sure the president has the best kind of information he needs to make a decision and you're. Also attempting to make
or that whenever that decision is announced to the world, you are well prepared to defend your nominee. You know your nominee, you know the confirmation process is very predictably content.
You can identify where you think points of opposition will come from.
So part of your job as a Y
lawyer in the selection process is really thinking about. You know how do I get control commando? This candidates records that I know this person's record inside and out, probably better than that person. So, for instance, all of the nominees that have been rumored to be on the the sort of shorter list of of people that President Trump is considering are all federal judges. They all have opinion that they were in over the last decade or more many. You know several of them were government lawyers. So, in the case of someone like judge prior he, you know he has a record briefs that he five
when he was the attorney general of Alabama, and so it's important to really have a good command over those things. Not only so, you can inform the president about his decision as to who to select, but also you know when that person's record is attacked. If that person's record is Miss characterize your your very well prepared to to,
Now, at what point in the process, do you go on morning, Joe between six hundred am and seven hundred am to try to influence the presidents pick 'cause. You know it's watching. I don't think I was
I don't think I talked to a single reporter prior to the selection of the president's nominee in
I think that you know we very much viewed this as President Obama's,
President Obama, with someone who had probably thought more about constitutional,
the role of judges in a democracy and and was probably as well prepared to make that decision, as is any president in history and and he certainly more so than anyone in his white
so we would not have cared. Could you talk a little bit about the folks who have made the short list and like who we should be most scared of who would who who's who's somewhere in the mainstream of conservative thinking? Right like what just cancel
ground on each of the. I guess the top three that have made it to the to the shortlist of bridges prior heart of men and Gore SH. I don't know how to course
I don't know how to say that name is gorsuch there. You go news guys there you go yeah. Well, you know I didn't it's. It's always dangerous.
You know. I think one thing I learned after the last election is to not make predictions, and so I'm not going to do that. But you know there are
names that have been bandied about, including several women,
but I think no one really thinks that those are going to be the names that he picks and so of the top three. I think a few things
As I mentioned there, all there all federal judges, so all of
Mr have been on the bench for a number of years and will come to this confirmation process with a record of judicial decisions that people can review. So
Judge Gorsuch, is a judge in Colorado. He is on the tenth circuit he is. He is known for for being someone who probably is as close to the mold of Justice Scalia who's who seat this nominee. Will fill as anyone else on the list
part, because he's well known for having of theory of the constitution that what matters is how it was understood at the time it was written, which is known as originalism
and that theory has obviously lots of implications for how you think about whether a decision like Brown
Board of Education or ROE V Wade and whether that decision was correct. He he's also was a judge in the hobby lobby case, which is the case about the contraception exception and, and he thought
that the corporation at issue there hobby lobby had religious rights that should be respected in that so
really solidly conservative. A judge,
Judge Hardiman is interesting. I think, for two reasons very similar sort of jewish,
record at some of the other names on the list, but he sits on the same court as the president's sister who's at Third circuit judge, Judge, Marion, Barry and at at least according to press reports, she's been strongly supportive of his candidacy. The other thing that's interesting about to chart a man is that he has sort of an interesting biography and a background in, and that is often something that presidents find very important in thinking about these decisions, and so he was a taxi driver. He didn't go to Harvard or Yale or,
You know one of those schools that all of the current justices went to. He went to Notre Dame so but again has a pretty strong conservative record his issued decisions on on gun control.
The second amendment, and and is someone that you know the federalists.
Body Heritage foundation are are equally excited about. In the last person that's been bandied about, is Judge Pryor, who
Is a judge in Alabama eleven Circuit Judge, he was the twice elected
General of Alabama and his nomination to the 11th circuit was was quite controversial. President Bush recess appointed him and then follow that up with a very contentious confirmation hearing a second time around in the part of why it was so.
For commercial is that judge. Pryor is on record as saying that ROE V Wade is the worst abomination.
Constitutional law in our history and at his hearing he refused to walk back from that. He stood by that declaration in so
if he is the nominee I I would, I would imagine there would be host of opposition around. You know his views on on women's reproductive issues and his views on things like gay marriage. So that's it. That's the pack
That's that's the we want chaos. We want protests, we want. We want as much noise as possible right well
but I would say about this: is that sometimes it's
easy in these situations to think that the person who has like written it down and said it out loud is the person who is the most conservative,
as opposed to someone who you know perhaps has been a little bit more careful and cautious in their public statement.
So I think it's I think it's actually would be difficult to to
actually make the argument that you know judge prior, for instance, this is so much more conservative and judge Gorsuch. You know, I think part of what I think it will be important for people to do is to read everyone's records. I mean all of these candidates are frequent speakers at Federalist aside events, he can go on you tube and find out things. They've said, Judge Gorsuch
in a box, and- and so I think it's it's- it's easy to think that only one of these is so much worse than the others, and so, if, if any of the others are pick, you can kind of relax, and I think that part of of what will be important for Democrats in the Senate to do in particular, is to you know, apply real
scrutiny to their record. One last question: before we let you go you clerked for Merrick Garland, who
President Obama had nominated for the Supreme Court and never got a hearing because they Republicans blocked him the entire time still mad about that. I was going to say yes, so basically, my question is ever my question is how you feel about that yeah history. This is a space for rent. On that now I mean, do you think? Do you think Democrats should
using Democrat should sort of respond in turn with this Trump pic. I know that I guess Mcconnell could probably nuke the filibuster and and get
judge through anyway. But what do you think about all this
Well, you know, I would say few things I mean you know I did Court Virginia,
Elaine and I think he would have been as fine a justice as as we've ever seen on the Supreme Court, and you know if, if I take one positive thing from the last year, I think the american people, you know were able to see up close. You know not only is sort of inter intellect in his temperament, but just that you know he's a really good guy he's really decent and and has the highest character, and I think one of things that
in a little bit disappointing is? Is that you know we sort of stop talking about how we got here. You know this c
didn't arise. You know two weeks ago or a month ago. You know this seat. You know became vacant almost over three hundred days ago, and you know just Garland waited over three hundred days never received a confirmation. Hearing number of senators refused to meet with him during the traditional courtesy meeting and all in advance of the principle that that was a fake principle piano. This idea that you just don't confirm and all
a nominee when it arises in the last year of a presidents presidency which, which is been well bumped. So I think there's a lot of temptation to just sort of like you know, throw our hands up and
hey well we're not going to participate at all. This is a this is a stolen seats, and you know that you don't run clean, read an article today in the Washington Post, saying you know, that's a very appealing saying particularly for for many of us who you don't know when and and respected, admired George Carlin and and feel very bad about what happened to him. What happened? President Obama in what happened to the country as a result of of what happened with that seat? But I think personally, I think that it's on Democrats to really demonstrate exactly what should have happened
with Judge Garland's nomination with whoever is nominated for this seat and it's to participate in the hearings to make sure that nominees record goes through. You know, to borrow a term extreme vetting. You know two hundred and twenty two
the case to the american people that what's at stake in this is, is you know not just sort of whether one conservative justice will be replaced with another, but really all of these non? All these potential candidates are in their late forties and early fifties and and you're really talking about shaping for a long period of time to calm on the Supreme Court. A certain a certain view point, and I think that it's really important for Democrats in the Senate to make sure that those views are subject to scrutiny because a it's, it's unclear that a majority of Americans actually voted for you now. You know restrictive rollbacks in a woman
right to choose or an absence of checks on presidential power, and so I think that's something that really should should come out in these hearings is important to make an argument. Danielle.
So much for joining us. We appreciate it come back soon come back soon, thanks, danyel, alright, take care bye, that's it for POD save America today. Thank you again to Sabrina Sadiki and Daniel Gray for joining us. Also remember to go subscribe to pod. Save the world
Tommy Vietor is new. Show that will drop on Wednesday
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Transcript generated on 2019-10-31.