I welcome the pod save america. I'm John favour on genetic and tommy later on today. Show a mass shooter in buffalo embraces a version of the racist replacement theory. You hear from Tucker karlsson in some republican politicians Biden sharpens is midterm. Message by pointing the phrase ultra mega americans join nationwide protest to defend abortion, access and later new york times reporter Jonah. Martin joins the pod to talk about his new book. This will not pass, but first always what a day crickets daily new show, but especially today's episode, which covers the racist mass,

her in buffalo and the nation wide protest over roby wade, including interviews with activists who were there it's a tough but powerful episode. That is definitely worth listening to check it out our lives. So the news on Saturday, a heavily armed eighteen year, old, wearing tactical gear, walked into a buffalo supermarket and murdered ten people while live streaming. The massacre on twitch eleven of the thirteen people shot by the killer were black, which is what you want it shortly before the massacre. He posted a hundred eighty page memo. That said, he began browsing extremists sites like fortune and h and because he was born during the pandemic and ultimately came to embrace replacement theory, which is a racist belief that western elites and particularly Jews, are trying to replace white people and dilute their power by allowing immigration the buffalo killer, who plagiarize two thirds of his manifesto from the car.

his church killer, who murdered dozens of muslims in new zealand back in two thousand and nineteen, wrote that black people are replacers as well. A version of replacement theory has been mainstreamed by tucker carlson and republicans like the third ranking house republican, at least evonik sen, RON, Johnson and JD vance, who argue that democrats only support immigration to register more democratic voters, so sure enough, an associated pull this month, found that one in three americans now, but that an effort is under way to replace native born americans with immigrants for electoral gains tommy to what extent are tucker karlsson in some of these trompe republican politicians at fault

these numbers for the numbers. I think they're significantly at fault. I think in the specific case of this horrific shooting in buffalo, there's no evidence yet that this individual was watching. Tucker sounds like it was read it for any chan. That, of course, could have included tucker karlsson content. We don't know, but I think the role that Tucker plays in particular is. He is the bridge between the far right, overt lee proudly racist, anti semitic fringe and what you can cable tv, he bridges that gap. So Tucker doesn't say you know, there's a jewish plot to bring black and brown people into this country and replace white voters. He says Democrat want to replace legacy americans with me obedient people from far away countries. That's how he tries ascended down and I always think back to how in like July, twenty twenty We learned that Tucker's, head writer was fired because cnn found out that this guy was posting on a virulently.

overtly racist online forum and had been doing it for years, and the guy rover tucker show how to write his books helps to started. Get the daily collar in fact ensue This is kind of like what we ve learned is the ammo tucker show they troll the extreme right wing sites, they sanitize things just enough and they spread its mass in your times, found that, in more than four episodes of show karlsson amplified the notion that democratic politicians and other elites won't have forced demographic change through immigration, and so big picture like the core sentiment in ideas they make up the great replacement through We are not new draws from very old racist anti semitic. Conspiracy theories that around forever but Tucker is mean lining it into millions of households every night. Yet I think he can. He serves a roll of of sparking people's curiosity. So they see something mentioned on his show, and then they start. Looking online and they look down some much more extremist rabbit holes and he helps legitimize it by sort of

standing down. Some of the more extremist edges of the stuff that you find online for cable love it what you and I think whether or not this person was specifically inspired by Tucker carlson were specifically inspired by least to phonic is sort of beside the point like the hold of this kind, rhetoric on the right is: it is a threat to the country and to threaten the country in a menace whether or not it like the very bottom, This engagement, funnel from like casual rules on social media take racists, ah fortune pose you're. So the people shouting locker up to insurrectionists at the there's, someone day or tomorrow. The next day at the very bottom of this pit of violent race rhetoric who go all the way right They will they will take it up themselves to do violence this been regularly will happen unpredictably for the indefinite future at any time some number of broke in anger. lonely, socially maladjusted young men who are losing touch with

Today they are radicalizing in one way or another and they make their becoming more kay, full of violence, and they will latch onto this fascistic hateful races, conspiracy theory because ideal, it's perfect in either it will find them or they will find it, and when someone as as prominent as tucker tucker karlsson gives it purchase, it means it is everywhere, he's the most minute white nationalist in america, which probably makes him the most prominent white nationalists in the world. So, ah, that's terrific yeah and it look. I think it's not just a danger of radicalizing individuals here they are organizing because they are finding each other online. This is why he, you know the manifesto was two thirds of it was plagiarized from the Christchurch killer's manifesto right like this, is that this is multiplying, and

you know I think the person who put it best was not necessarily a democrat or some one on the left, but Liz cheney, a conservative republican tweeted. This morning, the house g o p leadership. Tweeted monday morning, the house g, o p leadership, has enabled white nationalism, white supremacy and antisemitism. History has taught us that what begins with words ends in far worse g o p leaders must sounds and reject these views and those who hold them. It's a lot more than just being upset at donald trump for the insurrection. She's gone a little broader at this point yeah and in her accusation, she's speaking truth or so at least a phonic has been criticized for facebook ad. She ran last fall that accused democrats of quote a permanent election insurrection, because their plan to offer a pathway to citizenship for undocumented immigrants will quote overthrow

our current electorate and create a permanent liberal majority. Her spokesman, responded monday morning by saying she's quote, never advocated for any racist position or made a racist statement, sure tommy. What do you think of the the now common right wing response to all this? That this is just a disagreement about immigration policy. yeah the challenges. That is this framework for how they want to discuss immigration or this disagreement over immigration policy is, is just are fundamentally ray space, if you're going to say races. I just don't think we should allow any more immigration from the continent of africa. Are we gonna pretend that there's not a? fundamentally racist approach. There there that there's a Georgie white grew for people in america. Who are legitimate and then nuke for who want to come in or not legitimate or not as worthy and again back to Tucker karlsson Tucker says the worst attack on our democracy in hundred sixty years

not the insurrection. It was the immigration active nineteen sixty five, that law got rid of the previous system, which basically or overtly try to preserve america as racial makeup by promoting immigration from northern and western europe. So you know they're going to given up the game here. It's also just pathetic your political party Pete for votes, you know I mean what what is it about new immigrants, you think, makes him democratic its again the race. It's also it's wrong. It is wrong in in recent years, actually would latino voter the assumption that new immigrants will vote for Democrats is just wrong and racist on its own and look, but you know rich lowry and some other people. The right were pointing out today, like oh well, democrats used to say that a diversifying nation would help them. There is a bit of a difference between saying certain demographic groups are maybe more likely to vote for one party, the other in accusing one party of apply to open our borders so that one demographic group can replace another. Like I dunno, I don't know how you can tell the difference between those two. I think they

tell the difference, actually is what I think I think they can tell the difference. Yeah I mean look at. It saw the ghost of onyx rhetoric, as is. You know she's dealer generalizing immigration she's deal amazing, their votes like this idea of being replaced of being overthrow of it. Being an insurrection and say you are power is being taken illegitimate lee by these people, these other people up karlsson, called them like legacy, americans right back people who have died, here for generations. They should count more have more of a say right this. They're. All they all know what they're doing they'll know what they're saying- and you know stefanik as she is, entirely cynical. She is maybe the quietly them I cynical and she sees where people are going in. That's where she wants to lead them, choose a formerly mainstream republican. Who was once criticized by anti immigration groups for supporting legal status for undocumented workers. You talk to people who went to school with her at harvard they'll tell you she was just a

Moderate Republican then tell me what what what you think happened to release to phonic, or you know that she's not the first or last republican, who became a political coward when it comes the immigration debate I mean member marco Rubio is going to lead the fight and on the right to get too comprehensive immigration form. We are in a lot of ways. She makes me more at least evonik. That is, makes me more frustrated and nervous than like the paul ghosts, art marjorie taylor green lunatic fringe, because I just think she's doing this for personal gain yet it tells you ay a dangerous story about the trajectory of the republican party. You mean she made a bad around impeachment to go full mega and rape a campaign, money and motivator base voters, and then she made a play for leadership, knowing that the far right doesn't really trust her, which is why she got even trump you're still and she's. Calling Democrats peddled drifters. I was over the weekend. I think and you know the one ironclad rule of like, margo world, as you can never caves of the left. You can never tell the sun

justice warriors online that their right, brain, so she's just is, is dug in issues can be she's like new york's gaiety vance. It's entirely manufactured entirely a performance to shift you watch unfold in real time, there's something so despicable and revealing about the statements she put Today, ten people are dead. It is, Terrible tragedies, a tragedy in her state and if you look at statement that she put out the fire few lines or her expressing sir agnes at the event and the vast majority of it is victimizing herself, her spokesperson just to performing for fox news playing victim. There is no tragedy that they can't turn into an,

for two, you feel as if they are being made a victim. Even o. Ten people are dead because of hateful rhetoric that she very much spouted. Yes, she is like Kevin Mccarthy or jade events, or some republicans, a power hungry phony. They know better. They just they see where the bases see where Tucker is leading the party every night and they want the position sheet, and you know what she got to be number three in the house when they kicked Liz Cheney out and now she someday wants the speaker, job right and so she's going to say whatever it takes to get there I just like you and if you do have a sincere disagreed on immigration policy just acknowledged that talking about replacement is linking you to this ready. That is incited multiple mass murderers, the tree of life, synagogue, El Paso, shooter, buffalo, Christ, church charleston, shooter, dylan, roof like posted nazi references that norwegian psycho shop a summer camp relic at some point. You have to just

acknowledge reality and think to yourself am I actually contributing to a problem where innocent people are getting massacred regularly and that's where I would that's where my head would be and we have these debates of these individual examples. But but the thing I will come back to this, I have lecture stochastic terrorism or sarcastic fascism. You pump enough of this fish into the air over. Over and over again. There are enough broken p. In this world that somebody is going to follow your argument to its logical conclusion and I will continue to happen or just continue to happen. So the killer live stream, the massacre on the platform twitch, which said it, remove the video within two minutes at the start of the violence. But by that time it was already shared hundreds of times and other social media platforms and, of course the killer was radicalized online. As we mentioned love it. What responsibility to social media companies have to keep this violence and extremism after platforms and and how much can actually do. They have a lot of responsibility and they can do more. You know they hide

hi scale that that oats they're they're doing the best they can that these things are hard. These are hard hard problems to solve, but we don't accept supermarket. That said, they built a store tube and so some of the food will kill you? We don't accept building codes, our building is too big, some of it may fall down. On top of you, you built these machines, and if you don't want to spend the money I put in the resources and put in the time to figure out how to keep this stuff off of your platform. That is not something we need to accept that a problem they have to solve, tommy or anything I mean they did a good job, keeping isis propaganda off a lot of these platforms, and I don't understand her. extend to incidents like this. Like sure we have from what I read cnn reported that, like twenty people were watching this thing life, and then they conspired together and jan to find ways to save and re upload, the video by I'm

last night I was looking around on twitter, and yet, if you searched buffalo shooter the video just pop up in auto playing your feet, and that is terrifying and it was all over facebook. In it, I saw some reporting. The facebook said it didn't violate their terms of service and, like this has been happening for years years. I don't know, they can figure this out. Millions of people end up seeing these video is this shooter was inspired by an identical video by someone else I get how we cannot stop this content. Moderation is difficult, but sometimes these platforms would like you to believe it's impossible and it is not like you know it. It's good that twitch took it down after after two minutes, but it raises the question: should the ability to livestream

be so easily accessible. A twitter allows anyone to go, live on youtube or requires users to verify their account and have at least fifty subscribers, so they're, even putting up some kind of barriers that twitch doesn't have and, like you mentioned on twitter, twitter hadn't removed a lot of the posts until contacted by the new york times they put out a seems. Ok, now we're gonna go removed the post, but clearly they were up there for a long time. I saw them before. I walked in today still and there's treated, treated, with the seriousness that you would take. Something really dangerous like a tete on instagram were, or or or an unauthorized bit of warner. Brothers footage me not re, I mean we can take youtube, can take down A a song in an instant. You know I mean like why

can't you tell down the sound of a gunshot while it also shows why elon musk's comments about free speech and twitter, that you know he's going to allow as much freeze he's not gonna, go beyond the law and he's gonna allow everything else well, the manifesto would be allowed under the law a lot of this stuff, this filth, this hate. Ah, that is all over social media. That's radicalizing. People is not technically against the law, but it is certainly hate speech that is within the power of a lot of these platforms, to control and to say that you're going to go, go by twitter and just let everything go. That's within the law is is, is a cop out ignorant all of the above. I thought about this for more than two minutes, as evidenced by his recent tweets. Yeah he's. Also, a he's also got a little bit of a buyer's remorse, it seems. Is he he's like he's very much caught? The card is like I don't like the way the endless he caught the car and the car's value went down. Thirty percent, so he's like a bots trying to find lame excuses to get out of this one person.

more aggressive in calling out republican extremism. Lately is president Biden. Last week he coined the phrase quote ultra mega during a speech about the economy and he called trump, the great maggie king There's apparently some research behind this, the washington post reports at the center for american progress and Biden adviser, and he d done, conducted a six month project where they found that voters view the word mega as more negative than even free is like trump republicans in battleground areas. More than twice as many voters said, they'd be less likely to vote for someone called a mega rope publican, then, would be more likely trump. Another republican politicians, of course, are embracing the label and using it to sell merch and raise money. Ah tommy by the research. Is this the amateur message about

Publicans? We've all been waiting for ultra maga kind of reminded me of of clockwork orange, like ultra violence. I wonder if that was intentional, and I think that calling your opponent extreme is a tried and true method to win elections, not the fan of alter mega, not a big fan of the great mega king, the latter per day, you're does sound like a compliment, but what are they? a larger story about the extremism. Modern republican party from you know banning abortion to tax to whatever like string it altogether tell a story, make it a narrative sure I dont think you run around calling donald trump king. He likes it burger king, I don't know trump that none of it trump likes that trump's going to be selling magazine, t shirts. I think there are thick there too love it. yeah I mean I think, when I think of ultra think of. You know, have watery beer,

da. I think mag republicans is good. I think I'll dramatic. I sort of I dont mind at it. S really gets gilding the lily innocent. The whole point that the matter is the extreme peace like a agora, Applicants are bad, we don't either the other man. republicans, we're ok with like is out there all matters that we have to worry about. We just need just it was the first day a rolling out Joe. I don't need to go to. We don't need the new model, yet you know try, maggie republicans were beat that's the thing they tested. You know who I ultra and chaos

right. I will test it. They tested lsd on people as that is among a going to cocoa. So I will say I you know I er cabin anita like I trust the research that says the n, but maga is, is, is useful here and and works and is effective. I'm surprised that maga works better maga republican works better than trump republicans, just because you'd think more people would be aware of trump than the phrase maga, but you know whatever that's the research. I do think that the key here for Democrats is you can't shortcut the story for why the republican party is extremist by just using the word.

Maga this is like Terry mcauliffe, calling him Glenn, trump kim and just like letting it go like he gotta tell the whole story. I know that sometimes Democrats are obsessed with. Like the you know, we need a bumper sticker message and where's our frank luntz and let's listen to george lakoff and all that bullshit and you get yourself a slogan right. It's not the slogan. It's not the phrase that sells it. It's the story behind where they mark republican. So we have to just be sure to use clear examples over and over and over again of their extremism, to remind people of why they are extreme and not just call them mag and think that's going to do all the work. That's just one one caution, and I do think Biden did that when he was going out. The maggie told the story and a really good, when I do think that the kind of two pillars, the sort of they're telling you how to live here. The ways are coming out: your teachers, your doctors, your health care decisions, all of that and then- and there are also coming after medicare they're coming out domesticated coming up national security that are Rick's got agenda like those two things together,

tie to mag republicans. I think it is very good So before we get to the interview, we thought we'd end on an optimistic note, there are hundreds of marches in rallies on saturday, where tens of thousands of people turned out to protest. The supreme court's expected decision to overturn roby wade, our team at what a day talk to some people at the los angeles prose You can hear that segment on today's what a day, and we will also have a special preview at the end of this episode, so stick around for that. Thanks to the water they team for grabbing that audio tommy, Emily charlie and I were also at the protest, love it. I know you were at the dc protest, and would you guys think of the crowd and the energy love it? Would you think in DC? Let's be honest at first, I was just there to get a picture, so I can virtue signal on instagram, and that was the goal.

That was the whole reason I was there. I haven't had a surprising impact on me, the more I state around. No, I am when I was that well you know, there's something I haven't been to protest since in a year or two, and it was really heartening. Beyond their especially I. Ah I rented scooter and I was driving around and I was kind of like kind of squirts skirt into this protest. Can hang forbidden and drive to another part of it, and I can went up. Capitol hill little bit ahead of the protest, and I can have turn laughed and then saw the whole march coming up capitol hill towards it bring court and it was massive it was. Ass. If an for one, little moment, might my cynical heart opened the sun was shining in my mind, is very move and I felt like I wanted to fight and was disgracing, everybody really was

it was good everybody out there. How many would you think it's been a long time since there have been protests? Quite that large and it's I think, it's good- that people turned out to talk about rose specifically because it's a critical issue to a lot of people think it's good for the democratic party to flex that muscle again, because we're going to need more direct, action in the coming years, and I also think one of the things that I really love about marches in rallies like that, is that you can see people finding a joint community interest coming together and being together. You now people are in their sadness, cared about what's happening in the world, but, unlike the constant anger ends in nastiness on the internet, like you see people with funny signs- there, with groups of friends are coming together and that, I think, is the power of these marches, like you, can fight for something and have fun and do with people care about in fine real joy and purpose in that movement, and I think that an important thing,

to remember or to realize for the first time and to want to be a part of we want peace. We need people to turn out for these marches and not think that something other people do. There is no substitute for in person physical community, organizing, we ve all been part. We have all been living through this pandemic. For the last several years, People may do with organizing online. But again you just reference that, like the more you are watching these stories unfold on your phone, the more you are seeing the cynicism and dejection and disappointment only and you're, not seeing sort of like the inspirational nature of people coming together to fight and when we walked down there this weekend. That's what you saw. You saw people ready to face up people inspire These are people ready to take action, and you don't see that shit if you're just scrolling through twitter all day or on facebook or instagram or wherever else was really nice to see. It was

it was mostly women, at least the protests that I saw plenty of men ah, but it was like you the genji, all the waiter, just just you know, baby boomers driven out their profits for fifty years and great seeing that it was just so many fury ass women just like happy to be out with each other and feeling connected to each other, and I felt glad to be able to see that we, when we got to the supreme court, there is a very small anti abortion protests and it was very- was peacefully but fully surrounded by, like cheering, and dancing and younger people, and then there were just all these sort of older couples coming through. It was great to see y'all say that we met a woman who taught

hold some please. Please relate to love it that I'm a baby, boomer and I'm here now so you you made an impression on an entire generator eve offended on which is great and, as I have said, People are saying again to all the baby boomers listening. You are not the ones I'm talking about you done best to overcome the lead poisoning that has ravaged your mind, let it gasoline is like that differently the feed and beyond that. Thank you, love you all right when we come back tom- and I will talk to new york times- reported Jonathan martin about his new book. This wilma joining us now. new york times national political correspondent in co, author, with Alex burns of the block, buster new york times best seller. This will not pass Jonathan Martin, welcome to the pod masses

Why fabs gifted speechwriter tommy? He can. Deliver that kind of prose mere it just effort less like that, and he meant payment blockbuster, like the video store that one out of business of that does happen into the the book industry power. Are you doing you know or call some bateyes a blockbuster myself back in the day? I know me too. I just dated myself janet I don't really like is excellent, and a lot of our less eggers have seen all the scoops or that have spilled out of the book in advance of publication so to start with a bit of a process question because you know I'm untiring to a new york times political reporter. So when you guys took some shit on twitter for recording code holding things for the book much as I would love to scream at you for old time's sake. I found a bunch of that criticism a bit off in a bit of a misunderstanding about how book report

gets done in the way people are going to talk to reporters like year for a book verse ya. Tomorrow's paper. Can you expect, listeners how that works, which are. Are you what goes in the paper versa book will, first of all guys thanks for have me on, and full disclosure I've known these two cats for many years backbone back. before they were on the fashionable left coast, where they were trudging away these a guy you're, just a blogger, I think, I had some start up. Pilot goes right. The political outcome Show it a good question, and I look, I think it's it's the you know. I think it's fair to get that critique and I would say two things like one well. First of all, I would just generally, as a rule, we'll discuss sourcing but like two things generally on this topic. One is:

you know when you're speaking to people on the ground rules are for a book. Obviously the response is different in nature. Of the conversation is different. that, especially when it comes to sensitive matters, it's a very different. Conversely, in in sort of dialogue and people are much more willing to talk candidly when they know that their speaking for history and not for you know tomorrow's paper, even next week's paper, and I think in the case of this book we were really pleased with people in both parties like how much they opened up talking about this period after all. We are sure that your course that this is not going to be all for a year or so and so that we strike the other thing. Is you have to have like pretty ironclad of agreements that, like this,

with the paper. This is for the book, because otherwise it's obviously going to create challenges. So I think those two things are important and just like the last thing I'll say is the nature of this business. As you guys know, and like off doesn't come, wrap up a big red bow outside your door. That's like the high quality. What version of journalism words like oh, my gosh, we have this amazing scoop groups, our lab that we never even asked for what started. like now. It's a ride. It is like weeks and months of working various tips and irsay, say in second and third hand, material and then trying to track down. Is that right? Is it- wrong is a kind of right and that's just before nature of this business, and so it is not a good

whereas, like hollywood, ending worlds like oh, we had this thing dropped from above in our lap and we can just sort of print it. That's it's a much more lengthy grueling process. I like that these people bought themselves a year like the like god they're not gonna, screw me in tomorrow's paper next week, but a year from now, maybe I'll have a different job and it won't be a concern various to them, I think, was more like you know. This is One moment in american history you talk, lee about like what happened. It act wisely, conversation or moment. I think, just like the nature of politicians is that. if they have some assurance that it's not gonna, be immediate or that they are obviously gonna like you know and have their say for history, it makes it easier for them to talk in it. That's the other thing to is like I think this period is period, is so consequential for a lot of political actors that we talk to.

They call want to have their say and they want to have their voices were capture their eyes what happened or why it happened. It's a future me problem. It's like when you agree to go out to dinner with someone who sucks exactly right. It's exactly right. I mean the impression I get from your book and in the last few years of falling politics. Is that republican leaders I love how trump excites their base but hate how he repels swing, voters and that's why they can't really figure out how to deal with them. Like do you think, that's a fair reading of the dynamic yeah I do. I I think it's even even more straightforward than that balancing. I think it's just their primary voters like tromp and nothing does. Europe says, makes them stop liking him, and so they feel like their hancock tromp, because their voters like him, I just

especially in the house, I just don't feel like it's more complicated than that if tomorrow, Donald trump stop being popular with rank and file republican voters. I have no doubt that the bolt go house. Republicans would happily move on right. It's just an entirely a man side issue as long as like the voters in their product areas, like the former president, like that's going to compel the leaders, Already in the house to stick with a blow. you had some really interesting reporting on Joe Biden. Vice presidential selection process yell tabled distant pieces, one you wrote about how close centre tammy duckworth of illinois came to becoming the vice president on report that binds team was worried that, because she was born in thailand to a time bomb in american dad, she could have faced. Essentially a birthmark and spirits lie or a legal challenge. What do you think duckworth?

vp, if not for that fear, not sure I'd. Go that far. I think about the murder of george fluid and subsequent protest. I think war, probably enough there dead Biden felt like he ought to pick an african american vice president and I started with the seller. Got worth was dark and tender. I'm just not sure I got to the final final stage, but it does speak. like the shadow that tromp cast right, that even the perception that he would make this an issue in fine, like some circuit court, judge somewhere to pretend the way not bite off the ballot in a given state was again after they just do. You know where it totally sure it was worth pursuing, but no, like this fascinating point that he raises

look there. Obviously we get while out of the reporting. Here. That's been picked up is on the republicans hype and half the book is on Democrats and on Biden in particular, and there's tons in there about both Biden and the twenty twenty campaign Biden, putting together his cabinet and then by trying to govern in two thousand twenty one yeah and also the other party. the vice presidential election process. Really up that a me is: u s report that red hoffman, whose yeah tech billionaire donor a bunch of pulling in focus groups about the vice presidential nominees in that got pushed into the official vetting process did not surprise, that kind of, like a donor ledge, I dont, know research project riding came part of Joe Biden selection process, not totally because I think I think Biden was willing disorder

take that into account. I'm not I'm not super surprised that they would look at that, given the detail of the polling which, by the way we we obtained at you know that doesn't surprise me too too much I mean I think. What's striking is just, how or of raw the numbers were in terms of like the american vote, brewers were what works. A p, pretty uneasy about whichever african american woman was packed, and I think that that was pretty sobering for the Biden. Folks- and I think you know, they believe that we have to pick somebody what sort of maximum credentials, because the the electorate is going to be skeptical thus inside they vice president harris had been estate. Agee had been a senator, had been a prosecutor at the local level from the country's largest state.

It's probably the best sort of credentials among the black women that they were considered. You mentioned a lot of the book is about to Joe Biden by the letter obama, a fellow you guys know well wasn't ready kid with with with the Biden folks about this, which is not discouraging than ever picking a black woman, but just being real about the challenges out there with electorate. This is going to be. Are we all the scum be a real challenge? I think the Biden folks knew that you know sorry go ahead. He lived through it. Absolutely you mentioned. A lot of the book is about Biden's challenges governing the first couple of years. Here's something I've always gone back and forth on, like I, I have heard from sources close to the white house that they came to believe late in the game. The Joe manchin was never really serious about wanting to do a deal on build back better that he was always

trying to find an excuse to say no or kill the thing. Do you think he was ever serious about a deal? Do you think he'd do a smaller deal now? Yep, that's a great question and I'd definitely pick that same kind of ex post facto. I regret from the white house to that. You know he was forever think for the next excuse it. It could have been the war in ukraine one day and the next day I could have been inflation. It was always something that sort of not not take the bite out of the apple watch. I think if you look at what he paper and gave the sender sumer over the summer of twenty twenty one outlining what he could do.

If they had called his bluff on that and like kind of written that bill and then put it in front of him and jared it through the house, I think they they have a shot. I just think like every day that went on into the fall. It got harder and harder with him once inflation became real. That was just obviously his his sort of excuse. He was going to ride. You know, have you, Have you heard this rumor that he might want to run for president in two thousand twenty four? That's what he is. That's what yeah I have. I have I've heard three things I for well for he's. Gonna run for president twenty four he's run for governor and twenty four. not run at all and retire, and they run for reelection, I for all for the trip- and let me guess, yeah, I remember doing a story right before the filing deadline and twenty eighteen, because schumacher was really nervous. That mention was not

a file in this room. Rumour like spread through the senate and that the carcass was petrified. He was not going to file because obviously he's with democratic hold that seat there and they got him to run again, but he famously said this place. Socks talking on washington and those like on the record, my story: and so he does this into grumble. about coming back to the sad I wanna be governor again, and I think is that this is what a part of what he does. I he enjoys being in washington, he'd like being in the mix. He likes go on tv and you he grumbled about it, but I think you really enjoys an eye if, if I, if I had to guess knowing here, I think is to run for for reelection and twenty four.

yeah politicians tend to like to be in politics that that's what on my bed to to Jonathan have boats that where they have like members over the parties and stuff, like he kind of like Oh yeah yeah. He loves the, but totally so so you I had this. This reporting that that broke in early when came out. Yeah Kevin Mccarthy had some pretty harsh criticism for donald trump mccarthy earnest denial, I leave that I'm here so shocking about. You know who would have thought that republic, you sick we're fine avowal tromp right yeah. I wrote about it. Ok, so then you guys Mccarthy seem denies it. Then you release the tapes proving outbid. and he did say this: why? How do you, as a journalist, deal with someone like mccarthy after that- knowing he lie to your western of the country. I mean this guy can be speaker of the house and he's just it's a great Elijah and I mean yeah. Look I mean he, he he lied and he did grave damage

have credibility by lying in the short term that either his conference profess not to be that bothered by it, but I think you guys around politics long enough to know that When you get caught Elijah's bat that nakedly it does long term damage to you and It's pretty revealing that the people in the house, you will be confirmed, It's cache rog, like yeah, of course in private, he was tortured, drama was going to yeah. You know we all do right, yeah, It wasn't. There wasn't really a breaking news headline for them because that's sort of their existence, but the fact he would so brazenly lie like that, like I think it, it does create challenges for him down the road. Obviously, in public now his words going to be questioned and with trump himself. It just makes him that much more beholden to the former president and I think the reason that trump didn't torture. Him was because trump loves the idea of

him being that much more beholding to him and totally having having you know him that much closer and so in january. If I do get the house and trump's got even more juice in terms of dictating both the speakership election and then I give cabinet speaker what happens in the house. You know what do you think the chances are that trump loses the nomination if he runs Ah loses the nomination of IRAN, I think today he would be a fool,

watch you handle it for president gods. For the same reason, he wasn't twenty sixteen, because he would have a divided field. I mean he never got fifty percent, I don't think in any of the early primaries or caucuses and sixty, and he was clocking pluralities in those races, and I think he's going to have the same advantage in twenty four. If he runs the field will be smaller, because you have a bunch of folks peel off who will not run if he runs, but he'll still have a divided opposition, and so he doesn't have to get fifty one. He just you know he cruises along with his solid. You know a third or more of the electorate, not enough to win a five way. Is your brother right yeah? He did lose ted cruz in that old, iowa caucus too. It's embarrassing why he lost he cruz in iowa and then, after that, he mostly wanted he lost wisconsin, but he mostly won, but he was winning with. You know thirty for thirty secs kind of thing,

and I just don't see scenario where the non trump? let's rally around one drop, alternative ripe you'll, have you have like the hard core thy tramper you'll have the more kind of semi in that romper right so yeah I mean what what comes through in the book. You know people did speak very freely, two guys in it it's worth reading, just for the kind of ex post facto look. For example, there was this infamous quote from november ninth, two thousand and twenty in the washington post, where someone said. What's the downside for humor in a little bit this little bit of time about the results of the election, I am one hundred per cent certain after reading the fuck that it was lindsey grandma. I know you can confirm that sets a different newspaper but call bays us and get him to adamant, but the other things in their like mitch, Mcconnell Kyle all over the ship, icann has been all over the place with trump clearly hates his guts. But you know, he's recently said you'd vote for him, but you reported mitch. Mcconnell I at during the transition period was calling trump national.

Kennedy officials and asking them to remain in their jobs fend off constitutional crisis, but then he didn't vote to impeach. Can you is it possible to get into the might of Mitch Mcconnell and in how you can hold those two thoughts at once? I wanted peach this guy, but I'm calling Gina haswell the cia directors ain't, please god don't leave in cases as a stage a coup. I I can't understand that so tommy, I'm amazed that nobody else has picked this up from the book, but we have this scene right after the election, where Mcconnell solomons, the head of the cia Jude ass people to come to him, sweet in the capital metallic office in the capital. Entirely so that the photographers who were there in the capital could take the picture of her. coming in there, because Mcconnell wanted to offer her a symbolic vote of confidence

keep her in office during those crazy days after the election. That's a small anecdote in the book, but I think it's really revealing. As to health. Concern kind of old guard. Republicans were about troms mindset after the election, just how serious they were. Taking this effort he was obviously leading to overturn the electric. Now, let's be honest, it wasn't so much so that that they were going to confront trump about it in public, because Aber more worried about keeping live, to see in georgia in january, then about tromp doing anything to overturn the election, and I think the reason for that is precisely the quote that you just cited and I have to confess who said that, but there's always this challenge right. Withdrawal is like, and by the way, it is not just what the Republicans Democrats too how seriously we take the sky because yet

so one stuff he's doing is like cattle scary, unlike would be authoritarian, but at the same time, They see him, but the old woman is kind of this like seeming away the buffoonish kind of hapless figure and how scary could it be? This was the conundrum that we, the week sort of capture in this book, for you time and time again in after the election there still not taking it seriously, oh it's my pillow guy at the white house, he's a joker I'll come on what kind of a coup in this actually be an guys. I don't think it's until it capital itself over run in january, six that a lot of people in their public and bar

I finally sobered up to the threat that trump presented. So I mean this is a theme throughout the book. The theme of like fear- and you know at one point you guys say that you know there's lawmakers in both parties who basically are afraid that there's more political violence to come, and they don't say it publicly. They say it to you guys they said to each other, but they rely on to talk about it in public who's. Like a a personal question like I know, you guys are supposed to be objective: you're not supposed to have real feelings about things right. Your new york times, reporters like we, you know you're. Also, members of the press. The press has been husbands, whereupon I resolved the last couple years, as is our many very opticians like how a reader you personally about the state of democracy, in that by day in favour by the way-

I haven't, got attacking favorites up border on the horizontal loved tests to see without so aren't really concerned, I think, like we came away from this book sober about the sort of short to medium term prognosis for american democracy. There is not a lot of good news to fight, and I think you know talking about this book. The last few weeks we get this question laughed people just like give us give us some good news that what's the upside of Well, I just don't see a scenario where the fever breaks. There there's a reason why we call the book. This will not pass and I'm not just. It was just a shame was plug for the book title and honestly, I'm not like this. ongoing challenge and we had to end the books.

Somewhere, obviously- and so we basically did us our two year- account of twenty and twenty one, so we kind of ended at the start of twenty two. But it's not easy to know word and because this is this is ongoing. I mean you sort of see what happened in buffalo over the weekend. We were living in the this extraordinarily toxic moment in american politics, and I just don't see us as an area where things are going to turn around guys. About covered for a man I mean not even for weeks did that bring the country together a once in a century pandemic you will think would have some rallying effect on the american people- nobody's gonna together. We're all feel the pain here, but you know that you draw people forever to their corners

deepened the silos in this country. So I just don't have a lot of sort of happy news to offer about the challenges, and I do have a lot of concerns about the the assault on institutions, including the press. You know I look at pennsylvania over the weekend before the primary major candidates like not including the press at their events and it just for arbitrary reasons. So it's it's really disturbing and I'd say one more thing: spending a lotta time in the capital euro in d c, is basically been closed down for much of covert and because the book as well, I spent a lot of time in the capital you guys have been there over the years too. I cannot begin to capture and people who work there in listen to this package will appreciate this these this sort of the menace in the air, the feeling dead january six wasn't the end.

It was not a combination but that it was only a kind of one more grim milestone on the way to more political violence and every time there's one of these foiled attacks or yoga uncertain vehicle near the capital people to get really nervous again, and what what's even more depressing guys is that within the body itself in the house, especially more than the senate there such me, ross now between the two parties and not like oh they're. Gonna hurt beyond this bell double cross me a committee, but more like we can a fistfight on house, warlike tomorrow, get ready, while you Really, do I mean I, I think your personal anxiety about the future democracy comes through in the introduction of the forward, but also that that sense of menace comes through. When you talk about house congresswoman abigail span Berger a former cia officer moderate from the

ginea, galled, eo c on january six say: hey where's matters, so your mobile carved failed worse. you're, saying mobile, don't dress like you be low, key bees, I'm worried, you're gonna be a target. I mean that is one or one frightening too pretty amazing prescient it makes you wonder about all the capital policing issues given that you know a member of congress was thinking like that. Yeah of in these two democratic members, the fame class of twenty eighty two could not be more different, ideologically, and you know, as far on the spectrum, you can be and still be, on the same caucus, but spanned burger having been in the agency knows that Yossi is the most high profile member of the house. Democratic class of twenty eighteen knows that people are going to be targeting her potentially and so does give her that heads up based upon her own national security background. It's it's a really fascinating,

women, and then you also we we have that the leadership of the house Democrat were telling numbers, you know, don't we go outside take the tunnels under the cap old building. Don't wear your member pins, it was. It was fast Then it s. You told us that the woman from from California said, but that you go into the capital one january six that morning sort of eerie, as she felt like it was that scene from the godfather, where he's rolling up to the the tollbooth, and so that it was just a sort of you could sort of feel it. In the year there were two lawmakers jason craft colorado. Eighty kim from new jersey, Kim served in the state department and You understand jason crows, a former army ranger both of them sent their wives home before january sixth into don't save for swearing, and it's not worth it. Something could go down here so

All these members are sensing something in the year in the days before the sex. Not just tell you that my experience, I was in georgia on the fifth, covering almost both with the big story. Those two Senate run off but I knew the six was gonna, be a moment to wed nest. I caught the last flight from Atlanta back to d c and invited the fifth on the play and the sea was delta. They're bringing are not just like flight attendants, but like delta security staff before the flight even takes off walking down the aisle and tell him folks, put your mind It's gone said: down, because the entire play was poor. People going to the rally on the sixth, and so I'm thinking for myself yeah. I don't usually see this kind of security before a plane takes off, and this is a pretty rowdy crowd. So you I sort of feel in the hours ahead of the six that something was going to was going to happen just less than cause. I just I just can't resist a chance to make fun of Jared kushner you

report on page nine one for those who visit the Geraghty. I really a jury. Kirshner personally worked to recruit a campaign and you're for congo west, because Jared thought it would help syphon black voters away from Biden west, ultimately ron. Seventy one thousand votes. How much time do you think Pierre had spent on this dumb fucking unseen. While he was playing shadows secretary of state in setting up his future two billion dollar investment fund, that is seated entirely with saudi dollars unlocks also working on a government payroll. I should.

I know for a fact he's been a lot of time on it. What I think he he he'd like his father in law, is a great believer in the power of celebrity and came looking delusion that a prominent african american celebrity could somehow be like the sea grid saw that they needed to get just enough boats for safe and away from Biden to give them a chance,

in swing, states, which you know frankly, tells you a lot about how they view black voters and also we like his dislike the most crude political analysis. Odd, given both Connie he's, like lack of knowledge of events and obviously like engagement at all in public life, but it does sort of bring you to the white house until like what these guys were like especially going into twenty twenty. You know we we talk about this at great length in the book. Everything was calculated upon how it could shape the election and whether it was good for trump and look. But let's not be naive, like

most president's our political? They make decisions of parties, the bomb politics, even the one you guys worked for occasionally did that, but it's almost cartoonish trumps talking to these governors who were desperate for help during coded, and these governs- are trying to get people here and there haven't called tromp himself and he says literally two net lamont. The governor connecticut asked me nicely now. Well. What are you going out? Like George w bush was like I'm sorry, we're not gonna help new york after nine eleven, and I can vote for me. That's right! That's what makes trump different ways that every president at least four horrifically has tried to unify the country and try to be a president for all americans in trouble. Never even fainted taught it was. There was never any mystery about who he was representing if you settle out loud and in by the way, that's one of the challenges guys about doing a book that involves trump

that he says everything allowed. So it's not like. There's twins seek about trump, but that's one reason why I think we want to do the book. The way that we did is like a more comprehensive account of this period. Of political crisis is in america, yes, trump, but also Biden. Yes, The white house, but also congress, yes, washington, but also governors mayors, because, like the last two years, has been this extraordinarily tumultuous time and not just in the west wing right. It was felt in the house, the senate, with governors with mayors all over the country, and so we ones were capture that in the most rich, comprehensive way possible so that we try to do well. Incredibly well reported book terrifying at times, but a good, a a very, very good. First draft of history, Jonathan martin gill, thank you so much for joining parts of america. The book as this will not pass by Jonathan Martin and Alex burns. It's now a best seller, read it read it whatever you're yourself. Don't I went for your friends exactly perfect great book.

Yeah tommy. Those guys are thank you All right, that's our schoeffer today, thanks again to Jonathan Martin for joining us, we'll talk to you later this week and now here's a clip from today's what a day you'll be hearing from some activists, and protestors, who were at the rally in LOS angeles, the saturday the I am here marching for my granddaughters. Sorry, if I get emotional- oh my god I came in, I just feel like we're going back in time, and this would be devastating for my granddaughters, my mom and my grandparents fought for this, and I just think that they're going to try to take that right away from me that I should try to know. I have your own daughter here and who may someday herself on an abortion, and I wanted to have their own agendas

Just women need a boyfriend, including gender expansive and trans man. So we want to show up for all people, namely innovation, I'm a ban this in, and it really concerns me about the safety and health of my patients that it roby wave is overturned and that it will result in unnecessary deaths. and harm. I mean today as a post mortem depression survivor who wants better opportunity than better access for my black daughter to care whatever that care looks like for them. I don't love abortion. I don't think that's a great thing, but the idea that the government should be in the doctors office with me and my doctor deciding what's going on, is not ok here today, because a long time ago

A friend of mine nearly died from a botched abortion. I rushed there and had to rush out immediately to the hospital where, if I, if not, she would have died, so I'm here to make sure that that doesn't happen to anybody else I think this is a much bigger issue. Even adjust their potential not be able to Harry the wife, my dreams potentially not having access to birth control, if I'm rapes and what could happen to all the other groups that our gained some rights in the past fifty years, as a precedent. This is what I have been marching, or women's rights to health care and abortion since the eighties, and I'm really tired of this, which is why my son

says enough. Is enough more people show up the more that our voices heard. Hopefully the voice will get louder and simple shit like this and pleasant keep happening at my science as I'd rather be doing. All these things, and rather be going to farmers, get masturbating taking a nap but we're here, we want that and pod save america is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is anti gardener. Bernstein opera sir, is having use in bolivia. Martinez is our associate producer, its mixed and edited by andrew chadwick, el segment in charlotte land is sound engineer. The show thanks to turn you so many.

sandy gerard Halley, keefer, irish, warts, Andy, taft and justine. How for production support into our digital team. The lodge a cone, Phoebe, bradford, Milo, Kim and Amelia monti are episodes are uploaded as videos at you to doubt. Come such crooked meeting.