The officially in the phase of the george santos new cycle, words time to make some merch. As you know, merge usually comes right after the ex boyfriend talks to the media phase. So the cook store now, has mugs and tease for a few venerable institutions. The george centres did not claim to found, but it's only a matter of time. So he does check out all redesigns at crooked dot com, slash store. Pod. Save america is brought to you by fume. Be smart, don't start kick the habit put it out before it puts you out all phrases. We've heard one hundred times. Yet we still continue to have bad habits. You guys have bad habits, right, lots of them and caillou dunno. What that means

and we have no internet georgia, moldova and drawing on our sponsor fume is on a mission to accelerate humanity's break up from the bad habits that consume far too many of us feel as a natural diffuse of device that uses plants and behavioral science to help you trade out, you're negative habit for a positive one. Fume is not of ape it's a non electronic device designed to transform your negative habits and set a pods filled with potentially harmful chemicals like a vapor few muses course infused with plants like peppermint cinnamon for delicious natural flavors fumes. Virgin to model is snappy intact, tactile within adjustable airflow dial in a magnetic and cap. Your fingers will always have something. To do. Is that true love it always trying yeah. What I should do my fingers, these things look great, but taste great love. It was just trying one the other day. I did right here in the office and had try the easiest way to stop a bad habit is to switch to a positive one. In few minutes

I am perfectly to do just that. It's fumes goal to make switching easy and even enjoyable, they have thousands of five star views for people just like you have successfully switched when other solutions, just in work, had to try for dot, com and use code, Pia say to save ten percent off when you get the journey pact today, the journey tat comes through unique flavors in the new version too few. To help kick start your positive habits, that's try! F, you m dot, com and use could be a way to save an additional ten percent off on your order. at the welcome to pod save america. I'm John favour. I'm drunk love it and tommy detour. On today's show. Ron de santis kicks off his presidential campaign in waiting with a nationwide what're we quickly run through the wood.

Top stories in a new segment. We're calling one line, cocaine, bear Jesus. Our do ok, we're due to their lorries there, ok amazon! He sees many have been stopped by to talk about how Democrats can win more arguments and we decide who gets what marjorie, taylor, greens, national divorce, but first We are relaunch and voted america's no offers programme for twenty twenty three and its starting with that must win supreme court seat that we ve been talking about in wisconsin. The election is April. Fourth and you can help right now. Wherever you live by going to votes, have america dot com sign up for no off years, donate make phone. Calls volunteer, get involved. Boats in america come get to it yesterday, which pay to break the chagos. I ran into a very important friend over the weekend, broadly want to check. In

sierra ones. Doing in interest deliver a message to you guys so hearing a boy, hey friends of the pot is biden look. I know you haven't heard from you in awhile and there's rumblings. This is because of some lingering hard feelings from the primary here's the deal this kid did Joe I didn't like it when loved said he had a better chance of winning power ball than I did a resident, not jody, Don't like Joe Biden, find it funny when favre said my south carolina event looked like a party at a discount funeral home Joe did not, your widened chuckle in nevada. When tommy said the last time you saw socialists deliver a beating like that it was the sand and east. I'm here to say: that's all malarkey under the bridge we ve gotta get serious folks. Twenty four is coming, the soul of our nation is at stake, and I literally mean that literally

if we want to build an economy from the bottom up in the middle out now from the nether most to the tippy top center along an orthogonal radial periphery of the euclidean space, we call the middle class, that's good and we have to work together Really I am here today to say: Biden will be back on pod save america this year. That's not hyperbole. Folks Biden out hey great thanks for getting that note. I just saw him at starbucks on your phone. Oh, that was obviously fake. That was artificial intelligence for people to be clipping that centered around no time great from a site called eleven labs. I paid five dollars to make it actually twenty two cause. I blew through my limit before I got to the final texts, but yeah Those jobs are really there. We, I mean

we made those up, I thank you not agree to come on the show, but boy will this be dangerous and elections going for I get purely there's a finger to someone on twitter made an account and then a clip of one of the candidates in the uk mayoral race, around saying something completely wrong and then, like a guy, saint around and then they had to take down. The tweet, They took down the hound eventually, so it's already starting. It's really going be back. Before we can handle it? yeah, I got, the actual shall actually did run into one other friends: toddling, hey it now, as I just heard the great news about landing the Biden interview, congrats book, I was talking to Michel about this and she agrees we wanted to. Let you know that we too found the jokes Joe mentioned to be lacking. The arc of the moral universal law now got a ben towards better material than that. Yet what I have said

that it would serve you well funnier now and to reject the notion that this is the best you can do. Fortunately, I am a much better speechwriter podcast, her and joke writer than any of you, but unfortunately I will be unavailable to help out going forward regardless congrats on all the success at crooked media vote. Save America is the shit obama Tell me where you know, obama speech, reading that sounded a lot like I gotta say it turns out actually does once you put the spin on it. Really anybody can do it stuff it.

Telling us our material is lacking. Is the ability to celebrate my stomach yeah. I got a flashback to your child: hey, hey, hey, hey, hey now: hey c'mon or something funnier, and we do the show yeah. If I play with that website any longer over the weekend, I was getting divorced yeah. There was a time I own quite a few, quite a few other ones anyway, anyway, something alright. Let's start latest developments in the twenty twenty four mes america pageant rhonda sanctimonious above about it was some law today I got to say is kicking off what appears to be a pre presidential announcement mega mediator for his new book, the courage to be free, which the new york times calling culture or mad lives, with a dull coldness at its core. That reads:

politicians, memoir churned out by chat g p. T in the themes of a dissenters is scheduled to visit dozens of cities in the coming weeks after his political committee hosted a retreat last weekend at a palm beach. four seasons just four miles from our logo, while. Included everyone from Tom cotton and former trump chief of staff, mic mulvaney to the lives of tik tok. Lady and lord ingram but the other florida.

It still presents a formidable challenge for dissenters. Trump is still leading in most of the current polling, including a new one, from fox news that has the former president at forty three percent de santis at twenty eight percent, Nikki haley and mike pence of hang mike pence fame at seven percent and everyone else at two percent or below, including your boy MIKE pompano, eleventh, let's start with, what's sure to become the greatest political memoir of our generation. What jumped out at you guys from dissenters his book reviews or interviews about his book in terms of his message or strategy for this primary love it ah well. First of all, I I, these books aren't real books. we want. These aren't. Does the book doesn't that took the book toward doesn't exist to promote the book? The book exist to promote the tour. Like the reason might PAM pale wrote a book, I wasn't really to sell books and good for him.

he didn't where he bought them all. His yak bought, like forty grand worth it, to create a reason to have press people reach out to book you on shows and talk about the content of the book. The content of the book being MIKE pompeo rules, a yeah yeah, it's a cynical enterprise. A little little book called audacity of hope that did pretty well, while he's the exception, he's the exception, famously famously the exception I don't know that there is anything actually based on the reviews. I do think this book is like right in the fuckin centre. The target of exactly the kind of shit Rhonda santa's would would produce, as was maybe this little bit of like he doesn't really engage in the fight with trump. He goes out of his way to say something kind of vaguely pleasant about him in the book, but I don't know that you'd expect him to do anything else. I didn't find I just so far. There's particularly surprising, is taken on the woke mob. He's done a really good job in Florida. That's his message. Yeah that title That's exactly what I have not and will not read. The book may not be clear about that. You can read it yet. We have a book. ordinary other guys, give let me

What I've read about the book will called ideologies, bad florida, good generic biography. It was interesting that he didn't pick a fight which are obviously like books on the place. You do that He is doing this press tour. He recently went to new york, pennsylvania and illinois to do law and order message. Events with cops he's not going to see back of those interesting, so I think it's all building in anticipation to when he decides go to an early state. That's the bookstore! I from the reviews. and the accepts everything you really get. Why donald trump has nicknamed him. Rhonda sanctimonious like the guy, really does think of himself as well. Did you guys remember the video, yes, it was put out arrived and I hated rhonda sand was on eleven thing. We have a clip of this. god look down on his plan paradise and said: I need a protector, so god made of a fighter.

God said I need somebody willing to get up before dawn kiss his family goodbye travel thousands of miles for no other reason than to serve the people. their jobs, their livelihoods, their liberty, their happiness. I think there's something important by the existence of this and, in the sanctimonious describing, which is, I believe, rhonda santas was married, a disneyworld vessels trip, and there there is some disney adult energy inside of that I'd have that sanctimonious couldn't believe like that that they, that was their video, that that his wife tweeted and it's it's. It's called it's like I just can't believe he's that obvious about it and on the ninth day, god sent a puka me to people all over the place, I mean island, another video, yeah or disneyworld, or your disneyworld, he's that he is its clear. He wants to win in hard to take to take on institutions and not just

governments and academia in the media which, like all republicans, do but also corporations right. That was his fight with disney. and his rationale, he was trying to invent rationale for it, which is well it's okay. If I know that I'm supposed to be libertarian, but and and and limited government all that, but because all these institutions now are controlled by the left, it's ok for government again vault. I think the danger for him doing that, especially in a general election is, he seems, like a person who thinks he now better than everyone else. So, instead of all these institution, having the power now ron de santis has the power right. So it's like. Don't trust these institutions, trust me rhonda santas. I want to control what books you read, what your kids learn, how your company gets involved in politics, and I think that's it. It's a it's a bit of a weakness, not libertarian yeah, there's a he. He he does this DOD right where he says well once these are a corporation start, acting very political. They kind of usurped the power of the democracy by doing things

that they weren't elected. To do, which is, I suppose, have opinions, is all very, very murky. It's not very like it's not, and it's not cogent or not very well to say things like well. If banks decide to not loan money to to gun manufacturers, that's it that's a way of the bank's anti democratically trying to restrict gun rights right and basically what it what it amounts to is. If you just agree with me, you're doing something anti democratic yeah, but I imagine he wouldn't say that if the insurance company refuses to cover serious illness that their infringing on your right to live We are also at the same time, the other side of them out. There trying to ban yesterday investing, which is when companies invest in companies that have environmentally sustainable portfolios, blah blah blah so they're, just they're, just using it as a vehicle to attack the law. There is no consistency, there's no consistency, and I actually do think underneath. All of it is all the right wingers who want to get behind ronda santas. They basically just assume yeah yeah, he's going to say this kind of shit, but he's not gonna come after the money,

you know he's gonna attack disney, which has one company and he's gonna go after the schools and the trans kids in the gay, kids and the teachers, because I come now to the money where here for them and that's another big part of the book, which is there's a lot about the The florida economy and the florida miracle and stuff like that because he does want to reassure, is partly a general election strategy and partly for the people you're talking about all the like. He, mosques of the world while remaining not even a lot about the sort of like the like the final It's bros, it's the it's a it's a browser and it runs from the the finance bros to their conservatives, who have toddlers the angelic calls for forty years because of the tax rates to the job bushes, who all wanna tell themselves that the stuff that Rhonda santa's does when he goes in front of a school and says we're gonna, stop, stop the and and we're to attack the critical.

During all that the bacon. I see that as a little song and dance he does to make the other stuff possible and as long as that is how it feels like trump. I mean it's like every it's the republican play, but for the last fifty years, if he gets through the primary. I imagine will pivot hard to being guided. I over the culture gallery fewer schools where gas station throw me. Would you guys make it the collection of mega goons at thea ron, curious conflict, or some of the early support dissent, as has been getting from donors activists and, most importantly, jap- he's been a really effective governor. Young, I think, were on the verge of generational change in our politics can hope. So I think it's time for more forward, leaning, future oriented conversation or politics as well. I like to some of the reporting made it like this head head bows: can you believe the santas had a meeting in florida with the governor? I mean to go four miles from mar a lago, I'm sorry, I didn't realize that trump owned the state. I live

Impressive group regulate the governor of tennessee of bahama Kim randall and threat loosely defined, wareham right exit, the governor of I, while you met this guy bob under plan. Is this. I work. Conservative group leader, like you, don't care about an hour for that dude monsieur running for president right there, less impressive people. Ron Johnson, Tom cotton chip roy Mulvaney, loring ingram. It wasn't like some historic, massive event for a governor of I think it did communicate like I got a network. I can raise some money. Jab. That probably has you know, can unlocked some ah some of that big donor cash that helped him raise one hundred million for his super pac. Look. I think lit on fire

I think the jab endorsement is the kiss of death for grinders. Sanders will ever mention that again, but you know who was going to mention that day from now, until the primary will donald look at the topics of this thing, where election integrity, border security and medical authoritarianism fried the trump sort of message territory. What's interesting to me is that all of these people at it's not like sixteen, where there is a bunch of republicans who didn't like trump and then they fell in line when trump won the nomination. These are all people who have loved donald trump, and maybe still do love donald trump, and now they are all sitting there and are not afraid of donald trump at all. By the way like that now Donald trump knows all these people who were at this ron de santis thing, and they don't give a shit they just when, anyway, they went anyway, laura ingram, benny, Johns leyla, the mega media stars. There I mean, I guess I think they can all claim to be wrong, curious and that they they love donald trump and they love rhonda santas in it, a great big party with wonderful

bull and we're gonna thing I read out so how they acted for the last several years, you're drunk donald trump, like something more than when you come crawling back the thing about things. We're doing it by mar a lago. You know in elden ring. Sometimes the way you take on the biggest of adversaries. Is you have to get right up next to sure you think you can you can you can pull away near? You could get real close and people don't know that. Did you guys know the trump super pac is called maga inc. That is literally true. It's just a I called to save america while there's one called mega inc that was talked about in this in the stories in the washington post, in particular as her of the competing event. That happened the same weekend as this big, the santos thing interesting. So the post story also has a anonymous republicans. Who've met with dissenters, saying that he quote remains stilted in one on one conversations and struggles to make small talk or appear enthusiastic, who among us? How much do you think that matters I mean listens my comments

surprise to some listeners, but I don't have a ton of connections in the sense orbit. You know I'm not expend a lot of face time with a guy. He does seem like a brooding kind of. did weirdo. At times he sucked clearly seems to get his rocks out by being very mean to people, especially kids, he also of ours in the bremmer. He won a lot of elections. He raised a lot of money. I guess it will, I think, an early stage. You have to go, I glad hand, and you know kiss ass in whenever people on small settings, but I'm a little sceptical of this narrative given his success. I don't what will see trump is uniquely good at this element of power. Ex, though righty, because people all day long every day. His events are just pure entertainment for a lot of people. So there's someone found a narrative about rhonda santas in their driving at it, because it highlights something the tropics he's good at Yeah I think, is a reminder that Rhonda santa's is really untested as a national figure. He hasn't done a lot of the kind of more

social things that you are going to do and you become a presidential candidate and he is going to ultimately have become the publican nominee by standing side by side with donald trump on a debate stage. He has not been of he. He isn't he's not because he's a great debater. There are some pretty weird clips going around from when, as went again, went up against Charlie Chris, for example, it didn't and up ultimately, mattering. it doesn't mean he won those debates, so I I do think it's like you know, we'll see I mean. On the one hand, you know Clinton, bush obama, trump Biden, all really great retail politician, shaking hands one on one cannot think so he and it is a quality that a lot of the previous president's have had on the other. I wonder, and I know you talked about the slot and twenty twenty it with an iowa like this. I feel it there's a lot less retail politicking these days there. If it happens it just now. lesson twenty matters like the national narrative mattered more for these democratic primary

its everyone, I was about to be the case and that's what I want. That's what I wonder if that papers over some of the sentences weaknesses in this, because a lot more, the primary happens on line with tweets, Yo clip speeches all that kind of stuff like I'd- oh, I don't know if, if being a little aloof in person. Matters as much jamming went dissent as makes which is that the reason he has been so relentless in doing these press conferences of kind of changing the story and kind of coming up with somebody to go up and go in front of a you know, to do a covert press conference to do a school's price up whatever is that and it it keeps the story. It keeps the story where he wants it, and he's been very, very that's like that is his medium. His medium is as governor standing up making some fuckin hellish announcement or getting progressives all spun up about it. Getting national coverage about it when that coverage does dies down figuring out the next one like. Is that a recipe to run for president or is that a recipe to be a successful governor who looks like a great president?

I don't know so what happens when he doesn't have that as a national figure, and it ended a lot of this. You know- maybe retail doesn't matter as much day to day, but now he's there's a video of him being a schmuck at a deli and that's everywhere, I dunno so trump has been previewing his argument against a scientist on a truth, social saying here: here's one Ruth, is example: rhonda sanctimonious wants to cut your social security and medicare and as an establishment, globalist who loves I knows Paul ryan, JEB, bush and karl rove. What think about hit, and what do you do about it if you're dissenters, tommy so trumps? Twenty twenty budget cut, medicaid or proposed cutting medicaid social security and medical care? So does it do you can make this attack on the sand this if you want, but there's a pretty easy rejoined her there

just turns sitting. The rhino stuff is fine. I'm sure trump will try. It out I'll see what sticks, but I think the threshold question is: do these voters think de santis is a rhino. I kind of doubt that he seems like their second favorite culture. Warrior de santis can also say. Was I a rhino when you endorse me, or he could say? Maybe we shouldn't attack other republicans, because that's how we lose like we did in georgia, so I think I dunno and he's flailing a little bit. I think the establishment cock piece of that is going to be a bit stronger than the rhino piece of that. I think that, like you're, that you're going to be the candidate of your jab in you're Paul ryan there's going to be the place where he can, but where there's a bit of a softer softer belly there. Well so Sarah longwell who's been on the pod before she has this excellent podcast called the focus group and she's been interviewing trump voters who were like open to alternatives, but still like trump and for awhile. It's just like. Oh, we love to sanders, will have dissenters, and then she said recently she's heard in these focus groups a lot of these

being like two sentences record, it's a little establishment, I'm not sure like somebody, it established meant cocked. Look, it's arrogant I'd! I think that's his, but she also asked about the m the trump grimmer attack and they were like. I mean that's just ridiculous. That sounds like something the trump always says about everyone, no one took it seriously and they were just like that's trumpeting trump, but bushman thing is arising as a real? danger, and I think if trump can connect for dissenters, I think it can trump can connect him to Mcconnell to think he's going to use all of his votes in in the house. He's going to you know, I think it's a I think that is the danger, and I heard the endorsements that that the dissenters will ultimately get from a lot of figures as a kind of target pot and positive into a negative, and I think I think trump wants the race to be. Like populist, outsider, vs establishment, he wants to santos to beat the establishment to santas will try to prove his populist outsider credentials by doing the like, I'm attacking the woke mob and disney, and the corporations and all that kind of stuff, but I think he won

to make the race all about elect and generational change, so he doesn't want. He doesn't want to be in the frame of oh, no, no, no trumps thea. I wish when on the outside earlier, you can, I don't think you're gonna win that against donald trump. I think you are going to be able to win and elect ability. Generational change argument against ireland from so he's gonna want to make that he needs do the classic, like I was a governor who is actually in charge of things and how to run a state and here's my record. We grew this. We did that, like you can Ah me names if you want, but here's my record yeah I url and you're a loser and you lost your bite. That's the that's! That's to him! That's, I think is best attack. Does it you know trump is, as always a raptor testing the fences he seeing what works he throughout the grimmer thing ticket for span. Did it work right away? No, does that mean he's gonna abandoned it? Does that mean he's gonna hit it again and and for a while until it's in the back of people's minds and have no there is that you know there is the report that he started using meatball ron. Is he trying to

if there's just a little in anti italian prejudice, just left right under the surface for some of those juice. You know just like some of those south florida guys get just enough to make a difference. He's tried it out. He wants to test it out, we'll see, while none of trump's most effective or famous attacks are like purely about paul see. There's always some kind of a character linked to the identity are like. The attackers is tat. You can run he did his own. I do think that legged and he wants us to think of run centres- is sort of like an aloof, weirdo establishment. He's gonna, put all that together yeah he might at what are you doing with the sky and there is a and nothing will be able to start donald trump from bringing up the teacher Weird things happened. I don't know, I don't know debate, that's coming will say so one reads santa's hasn't formally announced yet is that he wants to leave his mark on the current florida legislative session, which now includes, thanks to santas a bill to put state colleges under full control of dissent as political appointees

and the bill would also ban all gender studies, as well as all diversity, equity and inclusion programs in state colleges and universities. This will obviously endear him to the base in the primary. How do you think it plays with most people? Like? Should democrats be calling this out? Yes, I I do think this is a similar dynamic to what played out in the midterms. This is something that plays for the base, but it is part of the kind of radicalism, extremism. You know there is that story at a michigan about that focus. Group laughing. When this question of bathrooms came up, it's not a concern. People have at attacking something that people don't actually view as a rule. real and serious problem in their lives. It just seems like right, wing, weird behaviour and it seems extreme, it seems draconian seems anti democratic and I think it will be a part of the case. We make nelega congratulations to census. You got all the genders,

his majors, he got em like it is the weird he's. Just very try hard. I mean I I you know it's funny, John. I I was thinking about this question. I the service similar, take the you out at the top, which is de santis, tries to define what he's doing here in the most serve like an arguable way possible. So he says it. State colleges and universities have to quote, promote the values necessary to preserve the constitutional republic, no one's gonna fight with that, and they cannot define american history, as quote contrary to the creation of a new nation based on impersonal principles stated in the declaration of independence. Don't even know what I mean. I don't even know what I mean but like, rather than sort of like engage on the specifics there. I would like to see someone test the message that is a little more

libertarian, which is to say like rod. The santas is trying to put politicians fully in control of your kids' education, and now he is trying to hand pick who gets to be a teacher and who doesn't- and you might like that one ron de santis is a charge, but what happens when it's a o c re, like that's kind of like the and and a universal way to shoot at this? You don't like the gender studies classes, don't take 'em yeah, you know you don't like what this professor's doing, or that professor thinks don't take that professor right, like that, that should be in enron to santas. He only wants his political appointees charge of it. You don't want to pull at your teachers, decide with occasional politicians, doctors aside how to do medicine, not politicians. Ah let the schools decide. Let parents decide like that as the place where we will. I think, appeal to the most people- and I do also think too, like the santas has played this game over the past couple of years. Re does one of these press conferences. He speaks. It speaks about it in the most.

general terms possible people look at the bill. They find out. It's pretty heinous progressive activists and people engage and social media goble go ballistic correctly. I either they outright lie about the bill or they amend the bill and they claim. Oh, my god. Rhonda centres is once again being unfairly malign. Look what he's done to his critics, who made his critics go wild and you do we have to watch out for that to do so There are quite a few other stories out there. This week, we figured we'd run through quickly with a short take for each in honour of last weekend's box office smash. We're calling the segment one line with cocaine bear Jesus. Every time is so lack. I'd say here is that each story is written down in a slip of paper that we will take turns pulling out of this trusty bear head

I brought my friend from college called I made this so thanks carl yeah for those of you who are watching on youtube and if you're, just listening to the pod, you might want to get on youtube and watch the lizard egg bare head on the table and he used to sell these people going to like coachella and stuff. That's cool. Alright, we're all going to take one and then we're going to have a quick take at each of us who wants to start wants to start time. We kick it I'll, kick it off buddy. You know which one I want. Then we got him I got the nevada democratic party, so I don't have Are you prepared without one where's the problems? The story was through our feelings. You edit this event

Emma credit parties in turmoil. Two years after supporters of Senator Bernie sanders took over the machine built by senator Harry red, with both factions fighting each other and even sanders himself reported the expressing disappointment with the new leadership. That's a good summary thank you, John might take on this. Is this is worrisome we had Jackie rosen up in twenty twenty four, your senator from nevada, too tough state she needs an organization backing her. We know all the context, but it did make me worry. Bernie Sanders is frustrated with the current party chair. Is this big deal in nevada, where the hairy red political machine has been critical to winning elections for decades in a mad in just to deliver years after his death, somehow so yeah. This is the sucks he will eat. Liberties have is at an end. Some of the voters, he delivers or four years after its merits, coming to us fears in your you, John and I got over on similar. Yet looking back there, not a sponsor

Now that's posing a fox news dominion and the move on ad fox news host howard kurds till his audience I that the network is not allowing him to cover dominions. One point: eight billion dollar defamation lawsuit against fox. The network is also using to run a move on dot. Org. Add that highlights text messages that prove foxes. Add to their audience about the two thousand and twenty election. Here's my take that's just good business sense cannot be gone, they're being sued for billion dollar businesses that say people spouting off about this already shut the fuck up. Haven't we look at what talking did to us? everybody on this network. We are not talking about this until the citizen that just make sense to me yes on tape. I know that's a great rupert martin. by the way there's does this. Is news broke right before reality recording upset in his deposition that basically admitted that all the hosts were lying at the amount should have that he should have prevented it. yeah seems our great as one at that howard kurtz is full of shit and it didn't take a loss to know there two liars on their air. As media critic, you could have chimed in any time

sure I like that that that you, the not yet the people's ombudsman from fuckin, how a break break trying to bring the truth to the people. People fox news news net this time, but also a timing. I talked with this honour bonus episode about the dominion lawsuit like this just goes to show how fucking petrified fox and use is about their audience. Finding out the truth. of what happened it. They know that if a bunch and somebody be like, oh their audience- isn't going to care. Well, then fox would not be going to such great lengths to prevent them from knowing anything about this, tackling how we Kurtz is greatly paid hack will shut up forfeits. Let me remind the house, because they do not lose the name of that person who tried to who worked for the energy and that they are times on fire, Dana lotion, if you were, if, if you called Dana load, the most heinous rightwing figured boot fascist all that stuff and loved it ate it up. If you said

where a drifter cloud for the money. That's what would. That was what I argue that it is not so out of that was not always work, good, free, yoga, That's because you get out of there where she now we are and remain area where laden papers and out, anyway. Again, if you go on fox news and you're, not some trump supporter, What worries us, alas, ring up the line you lost. Your camera, however, is the new one williams yanina. Now it's gonna, be there are it's god. I got married williamson self help author Marian Williamson announced this week and that she will run for present. Twenty twenty four williamson is the first democratic candidate to challenge president Biden, everyone, let's just ignore the story, Mary williamson dropped out before the first votes were cast in twenty twenty

and you know just made it to the debate. Sage had a few very memorable quotes. I had to do a lot of prepped. Actually interview hurt you prefer that have happened yet I would yet I interviewed, and she sent me whenever books Nicholson, a couple of couple of signed copies of her books and I yeah. I don't think anyone should be worrying about this. There will be no. It's just. I will nominate you don't ever If everyone hack the system and figure it out. Oh you just run for president got a lot of press she's going to try to do it twice with tone of the letter is well yeah. He will you did it last time you didn't. Even you didn't even make it to the taiwan. You didn't get a single digits in in any of the polls and you didn't make it to any of the votes. So why should you do it this time, while saturn's in a different part of the sky are atomic? dj, Donald trump, ok, skillets page six reported the donald trump is officially dj every thursday night,

at mar a, and I just want to say that my take on this is that it is fitness. Donald trump is not on the ones in twos he's not scratch and records. This man is playing with his add in queuing up celine d. While he eats dinner. An old guy, ruining debtor and is not djing thickness ruined nearer. He also likes broadway tunes says it's not So in the end it is not just any slinky on it. Specifically, my heart will go on as they really are. That type I have keeps monkeys majesty just sitting, table average, is like having a nice time and is just like a dinner from it. It sounds very, very trumped me because it's like he's too lazy to get up on sale deliberate it yeah he's telling gotta be toned. Somebody else gary reality eyes had a word. Tat needs not touch gregg, craig, electing the vip in carrying out lot of the pope, the bear in a new

in the new york times, former obama Whitehouse council gregg craig says because at present by an age and the greater chance he could pass away in office, he should lead democratic delegates pick his view. if he runs for reelection me on a star. I can have listen up, it's love at stake, and could I can hear the I hear the buzzing of decay have, even as I get close to this up ed. I approached this up ad with such ink. Annabelle scepticism. It reminds me I thought it was gonna, be in the category of america, needs approach, party or like why can't why won't Joe Biden choose John Mccain and his running mate? I thought was going to be that kind of a thing and but, as I read it, what I found to be interesting about it is: it does try to solve this on problem which, on the one hand, the only argument that really people feel, as is, that the strong argument against Joe Biden has one of age while kind of recognising that has been so successful as a president and done as well with the hand he was dealt as any person could, while at the same time being worried that he's not

fulfil the promise that he made, which is passing the torch to a new job. Asian of leaders, and this is an idea that so Let's have an exciting campaign, for who is vp will be. Obviously that is tough for the person who is currently the BP to read. I assume, assuming wasn't great, have that next morning coffee, but the argonauts said. I wonder if Gregg could get a call. Why was that people are being unfair because the article says it's not a bad thing for common ass? That's articles Jericho also argues that that Biden, because basically the article says that this has happened once up franklin. Roosevelt did this in nineteen forty four to them. Apparently, and adley stevenson did something like those not familiar yeah. Well, the tour that turned out great but Biden could say I prefer kamala harris. I want my. I want you to pick my current vice president. it's a liberating donor, but it didn't you and giving someone a camel harris gift card and giving some at a hundred dollars and say check out rice present come out. I want to know.

I want to note that pundits spring to me for comfort. As soon as you said, the word k have now. I want to give great credit for drafting an ipad that manage to infuriate both the president's office. And the vice president announced that clearly said that are rarely heard. Today are good for you. It's also the first original idea. I've heard in a while also again credit in the morning. Furthermore, thought at the end of the day, I dont know that this solves the problem that is claiming to solve, which is solve, which it concerns about Biden's age, because you sort of highlight the concern about the age for our entire months now, and it is a problem on persuade. I highlight one other browser, let the people decide the people or the deed. See delegate railway a primary something way? I pray you ought to entrust the future. The president, the Dnc delegate, Joe Biden, could just twitter pull this thing where you on the key thing. If you're worried about Joe buttons age is we keep sending and on more and more scary, international trips and hope, god is not paying attention to like twenty twenty nine? He crushed editor,

National, tragically absolutely did the long train ride. I just want to say that just want to say that alright, here I go when am I going to get getting down there Joe mansion on maria barter romo, ok area, answer senator Joe mansion appeared on fox news, a threerd party romo in decline to describe himself as a democrat mansion said. I identify an american I'm, an american and through this transition may mention also

used to say whether he'll run for reelection in two thousand and twenty four okay, here's my take on, I am a mature. I want to get up. Okay, I'm with Joe mentioned on this honestly. That was what I thought I was gonna say. Okay, so first of all I was worth so mentioned- has ruled out running for governor in west virginia again and he's ruled out running for president member. We thought he was flirting with that, so it basically either he's going to run for reelection, as senator he's going to retire right if Joe mansion runs for reelection in west virginia and he thinks calling himself an independent and leaving the party is the best way for him to get elected, and he is the guy who you know voted for curtains. You brown, jackson, all of the Joe Biden's judges, the inflation

Election act, the Joe manchin inflation reduction act, it's the biggest investment climate, the guy who voted for all those things. If it's either him or some fuckin republican, which is basically every other scenario here, a Republican is going to win in west virginia right wing won a right wing one if Joe mentioned doesn't run. I don't see another Democrat winning that race, and so therefore we lose a seat. So if Joe, if Joe manchin thinks the best chance he has at winning is calling himself an independent, don't care what the fuck he calls himself. I really don't. I agree with that. Do we think Greg Craig is still upset that kama Harrah's hit is

with her cards register. I think that all the work that one is that those laws are really details and were really it's so thoughtful and specific about an idea. I mean I don't like action. I wanted a thousand. How to have her is wrong. Great credit yeah we're gonna. Do I will say it was annoying that look John engines annoying. It was annoying due on maria by roma, show right after we learn that she was financed by forming sidney, bow and always luncheon liars. But no one is to liked your managing all that all the matters rumours politics, his pulling numbers go up in west virginia when he attacks a democratic party and Joe Biden. That's why he is currently picking a fight with the binding ministration about implementing the electric vehicle tax credit that his staff wrote into law right, he's manufacturing fights wherever he can to create some space

that about again just want your vote. Man look just why you're wrote dimension, don't care about your lifestyle than cure, but the greatest satellite or out and what we have seen by us, but we don't care, but the weird shows you go on with the liars sum of america's most progressive champions: houseboat america's just come into the senate and whilst cast our votes as the ira, he passed the inflation reduction act. He voted for the judges, that's what I'm saying a lot of people say that can happen than it did at least. Maybe some in this program, not not familiar this one's, for you are going to do that. So we can flip over. Oh, I got it. We we we could probably do under stop stopping I got the lab we gonna wanna do we were allowed? I got allow. Do the lovely didn't ideal years, member covert right, yeah unresolved debate about its origins. There's one theory is jump from infected affect animals to is naturally most likely at a market and WU han a is that covert spread because of mistake at a laboratory that was doing krona virus research. So over the weekend wash your journal, randy story with the headline quote: lab leak, most likely origin of covert, nay,

in pandemic. Energy department says la explosion. I knock. It lives three to either faves libs for arrests! Raji, I told you the vaccine doesn't work. How did you get there? So here's some context. I want everyone to know. First, I'm sure people are wondering what does the department of energy have to do with any of this great question, I had that question. The energy department oversees the national laboratories. They do. Biological research and department of energy updated their assessment based on some new information that came to them in these labs. As part of this classified assessment here's the key context. Ah energy, the part of the energy was undecided on the origin of cuba. Before now, they believe with low confidence that it came from a lab leak. Now the low confidence. Those words are very important piece. After iraq and the wmd fiasco, the intelligence community started saying how strongly they feel about an assessment so low confidence

or is the lowest you can get so, while the lab league proponents think a case closed lives have been owned, here's what you need to know. You agencies now believe covered, came from a lab like the department of energy with low confidence, the fbi with moderate confidence the national intelligence council in four agencies. Disagree. They assess with low confidence a cupboard came from natural transmission from an infected animal to agencies, including the cia, so the people charged with spying on the chinese, Government they're undecided and no one believes that this was some sort of chinese biological weapons. Research run amok been that that is actually a very popular take on the right. So the bottom line is we don't really know it's still undecided. The government is split, in fact they still lean in favor of natural transmission. So I think hopefully the dna is going to release some sort of unclassified assessment of this one question for you: why are you going to such great lengths to defend the chinese government?

yeah. What's going on what's going on with tommy, it's stretching send the digital economy. Where were where were you when the balloon is in the air where you? Where were you on the floor with a kind of remote, some kind of a those things called odds? You guys know that tonight, tuesday night, the republicans are holding their first oversight hearing on china in prime time and what a coincidence that this leaked the weekend. I'm sure this will come up shocker. I don't understand it's like. Let's say it did come from the lab that doesn't prove a lot of people wrong approves like five twitter people ryan. Personally, I don't like being that no one, no one, except if they against certain people got over their skis a little bit more like we'll get you say it's from a lab york platforms were shut, thing down allegations that has allowed bleak as this information. I think that was

it probably shouldn't and the audition isn't that I dunno. Why I? Why am I? Why am I in trouble? I dunno I was always like seems like it could be, seems like it could be. Random bat seems like that. Lab is pretty close to where this started raises. Some questions I never stopped thinking that we dunno time for the photo per block arrest of algae. When we come back love, it talks to mehdi Hassan about his brand new book. When every argument I co wrote it The positive is brought you by lomi. I take out a lot of garbage waste, a lot of food. I don't like it, so you know what'll happen without to do. I got a loamy. What did that do for you? It allowed me to turn all my food scraps into dirt with the push of a button. It's a countertop electric composter, print scraps to dirt in under four hours. I said I don't want five hours at one six hours I want and under four hours. I need this dirt. Now don't make me wait from a dirt

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joining us now he is the host of the mehdi Hassan show and author of the new book win every argument: the art of debating persuading at public speaking many our first debate topic. Is it great to have you it is great to have me. Why would it not be great to you put me on my heels? I you start the book with a kind of platonic ideal. A ship is standing by in the harbour with a letter of the ship is dispatched. People live. If not people die too interlocutors face off in athens or an audience the audience votes and decides who will live and who will diets not in athens any more and a lot of debates that play on television there less about persuading the audience and more about entertainment or the acuity of the debater or performing for the side. That's already persuaded. How do you find value in the art of debate in that kind of media environment Did you bring question? I think there is a lot of the time it there's a lot of performance,

It goes on and a lot of what passes for debates on television. I can't speak for other shows or other hosts. I can speak for my show and we train do really interesting debates on our show, in which I had a moderate them as a neutral as neutral as I can be, or debates in which I'm pushing a position. I try and get someone else. On who disagrees with me. I hate soggy consensus. It's funny, Johnny speaking on a day in which I have been absolutely trolled all day online by right wing has obsessed over the media suppression of the lab leak theory, and I have to point out that some of these are gentle folks that actually hosted a debate on the lab leak theory between two scientists with different views back in twenty twenty one, because I was actually interested. I happen not to believe in the lab bleak theory, but

still the debate about it. So you know this whole idea of all we was suppressed know a lot of us have been having debates in good faith. The problem. We have john, that you identify that implicitly, as does a lot of bad faith, debating going on right now in america, on tv, in our media and I'm interested in good faith debates. But I don't deny the fact that there are a lot of bad faith, folks that I interviewed many of them on my show. Well, it's interesting. I feel like there's two big problems. There's add faith debating and then there's. I think I think when you talk by the lab leak, I think there's a certain kind of its a good example, because people really talk past, another and they really want to feel right and they want to seem right, and so this is so. What you see is a lot of people saying. Look. It's now been proven. It was a lab. everyone lied except for me, every one was designed as except for media

anyone who said anything in the year. Twenty twenty is a liar except for me, and then you have to step back into a hold on a second you're you're cherry picking, three or four dumb tweets from people who went too far or got just as far off. When we got to forward the dead in the same way you did in the other direction. How do you enter debate? None is People are dying in pure bad faith, but people who are so desperate to prove their rightness. That kind of talk past one another, great question again, so I deal with on the book in two ways: number one: it depends. What the goal of your debate is. I go into different arguments. Debates discussions whether it's with my spouse, my kids, my employers, my colleagues, people on tv that I'm debating people I'm ideologically distant disagreeing with it. A public forum has different goals. Not everything is the same. I would say two things in relation to your specific question. One is all you trying to convince the other person, or are you trying to convince a third pass? I think sometimes we'd get to last.

In trying to debate and convince the other person, I'm off, I'm not trying to convince the other person. I mean I'm a tv host. I have my own the audience at home. I want to persuade the neutral independent minded audience at home that party. Who is weighing the evidence and some you know what john bolted. On my show on the iraq war, I wasn't trying to persuade John both and that the iraq war is wrong. That would be madness. I was trying to point out to my view. Is years later is a person is still doesn't regret that he was wrong about the war, I'm so sometimes we get on our arguments in one direction. When we reach, we focused on the audience in the opening chapter. My book is about winning an audience over, because that is the number one goal. They are the judge and jury. But in terms of your point about this, then there is no audience. You're sitting down with someone in private order doorstep. If you're gonna lie

Politicians listened to your show joined your canvassing at a doorstep. How do you get about one recalcitrant person, who's, not a bad person but has maybe overloaded on Sean Hannity every night and that doesn't quite get what needs to be gotten? And as another chapter I talk about in the book, which is the importance of listening and empathy, and I think that is where, if you really are trying to persuade we're not just trying to rhetorical, beat them down or duncan them other than any wrong with that sends in areas. But if this dinner, Is that your really trying to win someone over who could be won over it wasn't for the fact that you're talking about each other just throwing facts and figures and stats, it's not gonna. What you're gonna have to find a way to identify what that person. You will have to find a common ground in terms of you feelings, emotions thoughts, and you know the scientists have a word for this, which is perspective. Taking the social science, a strong message: You can put yourself in the shoes of another if you can get them to walk in your shoes, much more likely to find agreement. I talk about that in the chapter on listening and empathy Let it be willing debating gold about speaking. I wish that were true is also about listening.

there are many bad, but I try and talk about the book. The importance of listening and I gave the example of bill Clinton. The most famous example, an american presidential histories of the night. And you do town all where a woman in the audience in richmond virginia asked the three candidates because Ross Perot. Yes, I decided to force his way onto that stage and says how does the past? How does the national debt affect you personally and george Bush sr first looks at his watch because he wants to go home and then, when he answers the question, start rambling on about interest rates and about his visit to a black church. The question with black but doesn't actually answer the quest, don't even hear the question: what does bill Clinton do gets off his stool walks towards the questioner

looks or in the eye he says. How does it affect you immediately bondmaid? We have no idea whether that question was a Democrat Republican born who she'd been planning to vote, for the current makes that immediate, instant, emotional connection so they're all ways when people are talking past each other. There are methods to trot out of the book that canada and now they silver bullets. Now we live in a very polarize, very heated environment. You have you get something to about whether your speech trying to convince them an alternative in someone who's listening and I do think faint. Thankfully, we live in a world where most people aren't cable news house what what what a world that would be present come banks Did you ever course believes, obviously, because without saying, but I think, a lot of people who have, I think we ve all been trained right by social media to be a to beat to act like we are kind of munich using our platform to convince the people who aren't in the debate but may be watching the debate.

What are some tips you might have for people who they're not trying to reach an audience. They are at that thanksgiving dinner and they d want to get into an argument with a loved one. They want to plant a seed right there, just wanna. They just want to kind of get just open the door, little bit, what are what are some? What have you learned about the best ways to do that so when she- and I talk about empathetic listening in the book- and I mentioned a moment ago- very important- that people want to be heard. Ah, that's very important you mentioned listening, I wasn't paying attention now I mean you're that you want to talk about listening, that's pillars and we're sitting around the table. Feeling table? And I talk about that and the book and look the number one issue and my son obvious is unbearable, but you

missis hamley, would don't do including members of the democratic political party at a national and state level, which is appeal to people's hearts, not their heads right. We think that if we turn up at the thanksgiving table with seven hundred different statistics about the border crossings that will get uncle jack or whoever uncle is at the table, saying take em all out build a wall that will win them over to the pro immigration argument. That's not what will work in that? You ve got to find other ways of appealing report and a number get a dale carnegie said it years ago decades before I wrote a book on the subject that we're not dealing with rational creatures when we're dealing with human being, who did it with emotional creatures? So if you want to get through to people, especially tiny family members, especially on a contentious issue, You ve gotta, find their emotional, but you gotta tell a story, a personal story make it pay. something identifies the? U n them. Are you gonna, also baby the kind of show not tell you but also have some passion, the number of people who present arguing

in a kind of dispassionate, robotic way the conviction of all rational animals. We think that's the way to convince people. It's not you. Gotta have some passion. You gonna have some emotion. You gotta have some energy in order to connect with people, because people make decisions instinctively with dad got with their heart, not just with their heads- and I say this for a while. The reason why democrats often get beaten up it comes to their messaging aim is because republicans like it or not, I found a way to rouse the emotions of debates, not in a way I approve of in a kind of demagogic way. I you know anger paranoia resentment victim mode, a fear of the other, but it works. It gets. People worked up against that. You can't turn up with a sixteen point policy paper. and twenty sixteen donald trump very memorably build the wool band muslims locker up stuff that resonated memorable, emotive, provocative

An hillary Clinton bless her great childcare plans, but not stop the people. Gonna turn up in the drugs in the crucial places where she needed them to turn up and vote for a site. I do. There has been a problem for a long time on the left and I'm from the uk. As you know, the labour party in you guys had the same problem, often seen as technocratic, bureaucratic managerial, not enough heart you think are the like. I think, there's a challenge that we face. That's it's not a it's! Not just a matter of tactics or strategy, republicans compete on hate. They compete on fear. They compete on these very powerful emotions. Ah, what what do you? What are some exams? those or who all tourism, politicians, eddie, think, are finding an emotional residence from the left. That is in playing that kind of a game I mean the obvious answer would be. Bernie sanders. Bony sounded it out, but the book now capitalism he's a personal understands. People are angry and you have to respond to that.

You have to channel the anger. Whatever of you want to use. Populism is a very a very loaded phrase, but he has left populism to push back against a right, probably with the guests, be angry, but don't be angry. Transgender kid don't be angry de mexican migrant- don't be angry at the muslim under the bed- who's gonna blow. You up, you think be angry at the point one percent as who have screwed you over and screwed over your four o one ks and screwed over your healthcare system and I think that is important. I think, showing identifying the anger. You can't pretend that people aren't angry in this country is what you do about it. I would also say it's also not just about what you're saying it's, how you're saying it I mean I look at I look. I've said this point many times, I'm going to say it again. There have been six presidential elections in the twenty first century. Democrats have lost three and won three and the three they lost were Hillary Clinton. Al Gore and John Kerry are smart people, many people would say good people, decent human beings who wanted to improve the country would have done had they won, but not exactly the greatest emotional speakers orators and great respect to John. I know you went to a couple of

campaigns. But those are people who did not rowels people to get out to the ball. Did you look at the people who one again someone you did work for brok about twice Joe Biden, people who don't sound like they're, just throwing talking points out. You don't just sound, despite all the republica on Obama. Don't just download the from its own prompted Joe Biden is not a great orator, but when he speaks its authentic or at least is perceived as authentic. Yeah, it's interesting, though, cause I I've thought about this, and, and you know I I had a feeling you would go to Bernie sanders and- and I and I hear you on this kind of whatever of aversion populism, but aimed at the rights the right enemies, the right kind of anger aimed in the right places, but if you talk about bill Clinton, you talk about Barack Obama. You talk about Joe Biden. I think one thing that all three have in common is their campaigns very much up at we're, not rooted in anger. They tend to be optimistic figures right. They tend to appeal to people with a more kind of hopeful, ah, less common

out of ten or right? That's been. I think a big part of the way which Democrats, if one is unjust, I'm actually I'm generally unsure like while you haven't amount of fish back, I'm innovation, baconians, John Barack Obama for example, you know about and better than I do obviously, but I would say if you go back to two thousand eight, he didn't beat Hillary Clinton. Just with hope. I didn't slightly rewritten you with pretty isn't some of his campaign, your likeable enough. He went after rallies even after with name when I write chapter in the book on an open ended I have been using wrong without the hominem attacks you can go after the credibility of your opponent. Call them out, and Barack Obama did that when he went off to mitt romney, he was vicious in his bain attacks, he was salvation, is in vain attacks that Corey book. I came out and tried to disown him because we were being mean to Bain. So I'm not quite sure I get your point, but I'm not sure. That's quite the summary of Barack obama take a look. Let's move away from Bernie sanders. My point is not even about left or right. I don't care what you're selling its about style

waste and approached the rhetoric? Let me give an example: reuben diego is someone running for office down areas, and I thought is campaign outweigh launched a campaign with the fantastic then again channeling some of the anger implicitly, both at republicans and against kissed and cinema. There's a lot of Eric Swalwell, no one would say Eric. Swalwell only are swollen described himself as the bernie left, we socialists, but he someone, I often see just swinging punches rhetorical punches at the republicans, both on social media and in some of his very nifty add. I would like to see more of that. Yet and I agree I m- actually not I don't mean and ideological sense? I sense actually just trying to pass out there are times when it looks like hey the way you take on trump ism, where this kind of right wing populism is. We need to have a kind of populism and anger we have a need- have a righteous fury of our own, but then there are also I think I think I think, generally I hear you on the points about the various kinds of I think tough attacks, that people, like president Biden and prepare at present obama and even by president Clinton have made, but for the most part viewing it is their job to create a kind of.

A hopeful. Yes, alternative animal, I know disagree with you, I'm saying the festival we're living in different times right. Bill Clinton was not facing the same political environment that a Democrat today is facing or a meteor environment. So the anger is very different, but yeah you're right, of course you need to full optimistic message- and I talk about that in the very final chapter of the book. When I talk about how you bring your argument to a close, the grand finale, and I give the examples. I give other examples. For example, Winston churchill, who was seen as someone who inspired people despite having been a very poor orator himself as a young, yemenis to sit in a bathtub and practice out loud speaking. We remember him as the great world war, two a rhetorician and he was very poor return, his twenties and thirties, yet a stutter, and he had to fight with he had a hopeful message: wasn't justice

delivery which very unique? But of course it was an optimistic message, one that we will defy the odds, one, that we will be victorious, one, that we will see the postwar promised land, and I agree with you- you need some of that to you- do need to come back to what we said earlier. You need to have people, emotion, liberals and progressive decide which emotions they want to rule. For example, when I mentioned immigration, your own you with your uncle the immigration table and he's his demon- I've been activated in him, ah in fear, and the paranoia that coming to replace says to borrow a fox and nazi phrase, and you need to push back with actually we're america with so much better than that this is what this country was built up. This is what many of our own forefathers may be members of our family around the table, who are immigrants which you'll remember against

It is about building a common future through new blood and new energy and a common purpose, and I think you know that is a message that actually works. We see that in the polling actually intend to somebody, immigration numbers have turned around, so you mentioned the media environment and out, of course be it will. You know, no it's better than fox to deliver that kind of paranoia directly to people's brains, president bind there is a bit of a kerfuffle around the superbowl as to whether or not he would go on a fox affiliated outfit. Putting that specific example aside, where do you fall on this question as to whether or not progressives and democratic politicians? should engage with fox news. On the one hand, its legitimately. The minds of their propaganda apparatus on the other. If you don't go, nobody speaking and people Roger he kicks ass when he goes on fox, so I am of the Elizabeth worn school you shouldn't go on fox

I am not a fan of that Bernie sanders. Does it beat good? He had done it. They both do it very well, no denying that, but I do believe it is a propaganda organization. I refuse to call it fox news, as I was speaking on a day where you know the latest rupert murdoch deposition in the dominion trial, has just been released and gone out and we're seeing what he said in private versus what he said in public and it's exactly the same as Sean amity, tumblr calls ignoring or with attacked which, if they say completely the opposite in private debt, not interested in news. I think that the line from murder that we're not retold bluer about green I wish brutally honest and private email, and I just think what are you doing going on? fact legitimizing an organization which pushes white supremacy evening after evening, unchildlike tucker council. As someone who is a brown immigrant with brown muslim kids, I find it personally offensive for anyone who thinks that and you'd operation and people are well there's a big audience. We gotta get. The eyeballs were alex Jones. Has a big audience want to go

What was where do you draw the line up, alexander the huge audience whether we like it or not? Why not go on there? If you want to get to new audiences wanna? Do the stormfront website that's an audience that others can't reach? I mean, I think, it's a very slippery slope to go down because they will let where the eyeballs are If you want to win those arguments, you wanna win over those voters. Do it on the ground doing it the old fashioned way, try and build up. Political machine that can still canvass in left behind areas. Look at the east palace, the debacle as as cynical as the rightwing attacks were as dishonest as donald trump visit was. The reality is, he didn't show up, and people did say: hey, yeah, so the quotes from people in ohio in that place. Thank you came, forget it now. We know that bullshit you and I know that bullshit, it's a vacuum spilled on the ground, so there are other ways of reaching conservative voters. I dont believe that helping to prop up this figure-

and of imagination, fox news organization out to people that, while even if you don't go on that, doesn't affect them actually does fox, have obsessed with trying to get legitimacy and mainstream credibility. T- and I think you see that in the white house briefing room and you see that now advertising. I think you see that in their guest election, So are you recently had a bit of a revelation? You were very critical of president Biden when he was a candidate, but you ve apparent you ve seen the neo liberal light are You gave an interview where you said, and this is exactly what the most impressed president in your lifetime. He is very, what an extremely charismatic in a sexual way. Now an exact quote was that well that that I'd most of them are at the a chapter of my book and you'd be received. Just as you did, you did say most impressive present your in your lifetime. Now you have this. You have a president who has exceeded expectations in virtually every way except

one yes, which is that he has continued to get older- is that if the debate over, odin and whether ninety should run again, whether not he should win again read down to this question of age, as as our debate expert? What is the best way for democrats to wind that argument. Third question. Let me just say we were in a debate and I was trying to beat you up which are not. Of course, I would say and that you only read part of the quote? Even your made up quote ended too early because I did go on to say he is the most impressive president of my lifetime. It's a very low bar given george w bush, Donald trump cetera, et cetera, but even compared to the democrat, democratic gods, bill Clinton and Barack Obama. I think job

It's definitely achieved more legislatively and he, but what you just mentioned the moment are refusing to go on fox Joe Biden did not so I give him plaudits that doesn't mean I'm a kind of a fanboy. I think his immigration stuff has been awful. I think he's dropped the ball on covert in recent months, at as many israel, Palestine is as horrific as every previous president. So I've got a lot of criticism still, but he's clearly made the case to be the democratic candidate. Again, yes, you're right, there's no doubt the ages, the biggest problem with him what do you do age age? What is the argument you make for age? I didn't argument. If I was him and I'm not saying I support this argument. If you had to make the argument for age, I would just plaster my visit to ukraine over every campaign out in every arms. I would say all right: yes, I'm old, but MR interview would you like to get up and our train journey in a secret flights in wonder and a war zone as the first president in Bonn in american history to do so without american military support in that don't. I would play that ukraine card, which was a pretty effective complicate reasoning, seems to me

I think some of his poll numbers look better, but age is a real problem. I would also point out: donald trump will be close to eighty or in his eighties if he were to run when serve a second time, I mean Nikki. Haley has been playing the age card against trump and Biden, not sure how that's working out forgiven Rhonda sanders is younger than her. So I think the age argument only goes so far and because don't forget some of us, including myself and I'll, hold my hands up here and concede this. I have a chapter on concessions in the book I'm going to concede. I was worrying about Biden's age. In twenty twenty. I thought he was too old and twenty twenty years later. Is he all that is sunsetting by when he made some of the gaps in debates about record players, I was one of the biblical law is. Is this really the guy you want going up and, like I said, he proved me wrong on many issues. I think. If I was him, I would push ukraine. I would push his successful record and I would push,

Donald trump will be equally old. I do- and I do everything in threes that I point out in the book- I'm glad and and that's and it works. I'm glad you write reference, how we might might have felt a little bit in twenty twenty, because I I'm of two minds of this too, because it's like listen. This would be the oldest person to ever be sworn in as president, but at the same time I felt like there was a certain kind of engaged progressive who really paying attention who was put off by stumps I'm worried about his age and then the critics would have such a much lower evaluation of Joe Biden as a debater than the than the typical mergers and watching from what it was so I'd action. think it like. How do we it's like? How do you? How do you put yourselves in the shoes of the kind of person that maybe isn't paying is close enough attention or close as close it, engine as we would, I actually think we're over focused on either actually matters who the republican opponents, if he's up against trump. I think he has a good chance of winning again. Why not? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If he's up against the standard, I do think it'll be tougher. I think, if you're up against the and the different kind of

I wanted these people to listen to some great variety of the deeply overrated politician with a gloucester or bot dissent. His can will have advantages. It trump doesn't have and will be able to play the youth against kind of old age card and don't forget I talk about this but you ve always got the ronald reagan. God have been raided, but the person who dealt with is the most As for amendment away in american history, in a debate when it was, the question was thrown him about his age. He made fun

walter mondale and said I won't use his youth and inexperience against him as a great zinger. I included in the book and the chapter on thing as much as I loathe reagan. I loved that line and I think people have done it before so I don't necessarily think the Biden's age is going to be the dealbreaker. I think it will be a problem, I think, will be a big problem against the run disastrous, not against donald trump, but I don't think tuscan was going to decide twenty twenty four. My worry about twenty twenty four is how strong the five ships are going to be at a local and state level in terms of corrupting our election process and then starting an insurrection after the next election. Let's talk about the fascists for a second, so we're in the midst of this anti trans backlash, that is being fomented by a bunch of right wing politicians who are trying to pass anti trans laws, but one step away from them. You have the JK rowling's of the world who who are offended by the term of of transfer, while, while kind of pushing misinformation and kind of otherizing trans,

people. You have come right wing comedians who have and like even people that wouldn't consider them as conservatives embracing kind of conservatives that at your Dave chappelle, you have a journalistic figures who consider themselves objective teaching the controversy a wondering if this whole gender thing has gone too far. You have all these different factions making noise and you have progressives. You have doctors, you have experts, you have trans people trying to take on all these factions at once. When do you try to debate to win these arguments on points or when do you feel like you have to accept that your lucy with the chocolates and the only way to win is not applied to kind of sit up trying to win these point by point arguments with people who don't care about the truth and go for the millions of people who may be just starting to understand this issue at all. If a great aggression,

and it's something I've struggled with for a long time. I am not transgender, but I muslim. So I know what it's like to be a minor students feared and loathed and becomes a political cudgel, because the twenty years that has made the muslim community since nine eleven. Sadly, you saw Donald trump get elected on the back of a muslim ban and the same question specific? Persisting then do debate this stuff. Would you say my identity? My existence is not up for debate and I think I would you know who I am. I I'm not gonna speaker, Martha transgender committed, but what I would say as a muslim person who feels very worried about the hateful the tax on accepting community in our midst and wait, they ve been turned into political force Well, my advice would be is again to go back to the start of our conversation separate this out or you could go and debate Matt walsh on the daily wire on transgender kids. No, no

there's just no pointed out, and I keep telling interview this and they talk about my book. If I wrote the book again, if I were a sequel, I would add a chapter that I feel I missed, which is when to walk away from it all right, the sudden people, you don't argue it, because it's not a good faith argument because they just trolls or they just bigots, though god one had not returned, I know my shirt even if she wanted to come on and said I'll, give you a great viral moment. Oh what what would be achieved from that nothing. She not a good faith, actor she's, a fantasist and a grifter so who's your what's! Your goal you want to debate, will no don't lucy and the football, as you said, but all that millions of americans out there who want to understand more about gender, affirming care who want to understand more about whether their kids are going to be disadvantaged in school. Because of the rules on which gender can play, which sports yeah there are millions of and can drive concerns, including millions of democrats, liberals and self proclaimed progressive. That's just a fact. This is new stuff,

people so should you be going out there in persuading those people? Should you be engaged in good faith debate if you can identify good faith, people to debate with yes and I began to use the muslim analogy. Would I go on? When I go on a show on fox to debate them a slim ban. No, but would I have a good faith discussion with someone on NPR about the terrorist threat from muslim groups and do muslims almost and doing enough to tackle terrorism that meets with the question. I would ask that, as in times posts none eleven yeah, I didn't I went and did those discussions on the bbc on cnn, etc. They gonna separated out. What is the good faith of the argument? Who are the convinced about and the persuadable and who are the bigots and gripped? Is attention seekers don't debate with them? Do debate with the others? That's as simply as I can put it from my own perspective as a minority journalists get it out there just that. You know the old expression. Don't don't mud wrestle a pig you'll get dirty and they'll like it. Then it ended

if you've, given us a lot of your time, but I I I would be remiss if I didn't and end with with a debate. Ah, can we please put on the screen or how a dog would wear pants? Ah, There are two ways here representing how a dog would wear pants for those this is an audio medium I'll say, one of them is the door. The panther halfway up the body covering all four legs or the pants are the back half of the body just covering the bomb the the back legs. Can you choose aside and make an argument and defeat me when I argue the alternative? Will you pick your side? First It has been argued there. You go first, I'm going to I'm going to I'm going to say: look I signed the book. Sometimes you want to go first. Sometimes you gotta go last. I want to go last okay going to argue that a dog would wear PAH. As on the left, as in all go out magazine, I know what I know. I chose the harder it ok, so you would you like me to go first, you like china, you go make here's my point. I

stand that we live in a world where people confuse aesthetics and morals, I stand. Why aesthetically someone some unlike many, would assume that a dogwood where pants just on their hind legs, I agree it looks. Like the way pants should be worn, but that's how I approach this problem are I see a dog with four legs and I believe for adults. Where pants all four legs should be in pants, if was only wearing pants on half my legs, I would look ridiculous, but it is because you think it is more important. Dog look like a person than a dog where Hence the way a dog would wear pants inside of a dog culture that you have adopted this ridiculous position. I think, if I would just say one thing, this is a sure I mean you ve had more time to think about this argument. Allow me to say in the few seconds that I have This is a show with liberal listeners and I think liberals understand that is deeply offensive to push an argument that is based on a separate but equal approach, while I think are providing funding we put behind us, I think madam dog wants to be equally.

And dog is man's best friend. The idea that you would put DA you will put a dog in pants with his owner, but you would not allow the dog to wear pants in the style of his owner and to say that that apartheid situation it's something I could endorse, notably, I believe in equality values, democracy as as as all about values, well know what I want to point out that promote equal job. If that's what you want to push, if that's what the audience wants to go for some you take separate, but equal, I'm gonna say next time I see you. I want to make two points, one with my left with my right and you hurry, because I'm saying the book you have to have three points, always. I also heard here, is in the wrong order. I held up and then the wrong order. Mary, his arm. Thank you. So much for your time. The book is win. Every argument, the artist baiting persuading in public speaking betty. I would say that you know, for our first outbreak was a great to have you. I think the answer is yes. I think it was. I think you won the argument I appreciate it. John said

pleasure, and I won't say that you will co host. Told me to retort me beat you up, because that would be true Well well, well, you know what I made it I survived. The debate. Can you have fantastic tat? Stick I thoroughly injurious and it was very clear meeting. You read the entire balkan run circled round me thanks and I almost of sure I would almost I could almost as do the the unprepared charlie rose question, which is your book. Why now is it better I do book interviews for a living. Trust me on the other side of this, the number that drink or they get asked me have. I read patient hundred and seventy two of the book are petrified of that. but the rudest is question you can ask a person is: have you read my book by, but it's alex the real question I read where I'm asking you, I read every goddamn water. He was so damn good too, that a dog eared copy by my bed

you got when in the rain. You know if it's biomedical efforts to seek every night married. Thank you so it- is greg stump. The pod save america is brought you by ziprecruiter these days. Job seekers want more everything from remote working conditions to an easier application process. Sometimes it can be hard to stand out to job seekers. How can you break through the clutter and attract the most qualified Candidates for your business, zip, recruiter and right now you can try for free if recruiter dot com such crooked, their bunch, always the procurator helps stand out to the right candidates. Their technology, send you great candidates for your job and you can send a personal invite to your top choices. To make an impact. Zip recruiter also makes it easy for candidates to apply to your job. In fact, they can apply with one click plus

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But everything else, John tommy and I have decided we are going to take the amicable route and fairly split things up with marjorie taylor. Green there's no need to get a judge or submarine involved. We can settle this ourselves I'll run through a list items is in our job to find a way to amicably split them so that we can have a we can. We can settle this without going without. Kind of during our anger. Money is reassuring. Custody are right, so I think we need that whiteboard! Oh, my gosh, there's a way port involved, katy porter here in spirit. Here's how works! we are trying to amicably split longing to guide us things to split up, and we obviously on a dual, for ourselves is blue americans, but we also try me fair. Ok, sorry, I weep His blue americans are we playing as sort of arbor like I like our fair people, the yeah like judges and I think we're on we're like the mainstream media were from the cities, but we're trying to pretend we're fair okay

You don't get me outta. The ads are key federated here we got our first up. We have the creases Chris pine. chris Evans chris Hemsworth Chris Pratt, and I think we are obviously give them chris Pratt yeah. They get Pratt, they get Pratt an easy one and I evans. I just die it's important to me that we get Evan hooker. So now we ve got chris prime and we ve got Chris hems worth. I have a strong, I didn't know you want hymns worth anyone answer. I think not I think, that's giving them a great credit to yeah hems worth and they're gonna get paid. and can we give them armie hammer, he just feels like he does in this bucket sitting. Over there I spelled army wrong is is okay, I dunno if he can afford armie hammer good. Thank you, okay. Now

at chili's, friday's buca di beppo and cheesecake factory, okay, okay, I have a I have a pitch okay, which is, I will do anything to keep Please take that I was gonna, I'm with you, ok, so I would like, if I were not like, I always how's the opec sake us not analysed. Ok, we can live out member does. I think we should give them chile's fridays ambiguity beppo, because in a lot of a lot of these red states, that would be the best time through the and then we get we get out back. We get cheesecake yeah Mrs Schleicher, chile, Chile's anti jerry fridays both have the best honey mustard of any chain restaurant was basic mother fucker. Have I know I am I moved out, I'm a purple american, oh Jesus. I wanted innovation nourishes he worships innocent god and others heads and I'm gonna. Let fine they get fridays ok to eventually ass.

We have got it. I don't want to look at a beppo vacant. I've been thinking I book. I guess I do they, we're gonna get back, but I do think because we're getting cheesecake factory I'm just going to throw in panera bread. I think that's fair, that's right, because it fucking sucks we're going to get the olive garden sure! That's our italian yeah yeah, we'll get olive garden unlimited bread, because if because they dont want anywhere where your family, ah white loading, stone. I think this is a bit of a given what we have just not an easy one and. why everyone out alone yeah, that's great. They didn't want, let us mcdonald and talk about mcdonald and talk about whom I think I think they should problems. If they're going to demand smackdown yeah, they don't want taco bell. He was fed at state dinners. It's a

it's a win for them, but I'm going to I'm going to agree, I'm not happy about it and I'm gonna say we get taco bell if they got taco bell. There in a race. Can we get like the yum brands triumph or yeah yeah? I think that's great. We can get the pizza hot and we can get. Ah, you know what, though they gotta get the kfc bomber. They gotta get the camps in the kfc, we're gonna get papa's. Okay, okay, returning at popeyes video dollars is ringing. Promise that you know that's what else we got louisiana done right. That's an old white guy spanish, so it checks out the feeling of having no emails in your inbox versus the feeling of having a fully charged cell phone and a dog that has paid him pooped. Oh, that's it that's interesting, Ok, we'll never get to feel one of those again. I'm I will we're again ever follies out amp inbox, yeah I'll, never delete all my emails or read rhythm said again in my way

the dog that yet again in bottles are my phone owners. I announced the phone, your brother's pike s, offline, hoop, charged, etc. That then makes sense, but yet the just yet This is really a tough one and I deputize you as being able to discuss see, observed rigorous and trouble well. Algae BT, Worse, we're just we're just going to try to figure out. We have that's a divorce itself, Nobody went that's why divorces is so horrible people end up. If they don't want to be, and I I will explain it even we now have to many of us now. Now they're, not these! Now I'm here's my proposal, ok There was going to argue with their getting, though let there are getting the lesbians and we'll get every thing else: q,

a spirits etc. This is because of trucks and living in south. So don't that's a choice. They made pass That's a choice. They made getting a thumbs down from an hour and on the couch yeah I'm getting an l from getting the big a big thumbs down. Please direct all comments, alright, and that was a tough one. Alright messagebox, playbook and punchbowl. Yeah. We obviously get the message, we're not wonder what to do. We gotta get. We gotta get the message box that played played with them. Reading the message box read, says good play. They gonna play buck already. Have it they're going to have playbook we get we get punchbowl we're taking punchbowl substantive, we're taking punchbowl, I mean you'd punch bowl is like the Kevin mccarthy, mouthpiece,

Choice of gambling stayed there will I live, I doubt if they can never get around the great lakes and the grand canyon. I mean filters more value to having the great oh yeah wondered at origin is just like our own stuff, beginning the people staring eyes and we're gonna take the great lakes zero. That is this five of them right sure is that right at supper, which one you there I'm nervous huron superior ontario erie what they look like right and then there are the grand canyon dried up, very well, then I pretty good about what we are getting. We did a good job see? That's how do we do the reds aids Gunnar is practised by an army and hammer who gets the awesome god

While we do worship in autumn gonna lose data down now, so I think that will get women you to throw this ever to the bench, a parachute and see if you thinks it's fair, yeah, that's book it about building up an arab red, get yellowstone. They love that they do giving dolls at a huge when a big, that's a great at the great prize, see calves aiming at inbox zero and they get lesbian. So therefore, I was all work. In our view, be mediation, although other woods going well send it unlike on our side, we're fucked is crashing into each. This is only half an hour to show for gradual talk about makes too many thanks to the cocaine bear marine, my xbox and our phone thanks, a Joe Biden unbreakable, whereby an barack obama and thanks to the thanks to lesbians were taken. One for the team will have a greater everybody blah.

pod. Save America is a crooked media production. The executive producer is Michael Martinez, our senior producer, is Andy gardner Bernstein are produced. Or hayley muse and olivia martinez, its mixed in edited by andrew chadwick, I segment and charlotte Linda sound engineered the show, thanks to Hayley keefer for irish sandy gerard anti tat and how for production support into our digital team, illogical. Phoebe Bradford, my look him and Amelia monday. Our episodes are up, it is videos at you to dot com such pod? Save america I.