The Postal Service warns states that mail-in ballots might not be counted in time, Democrats plan an emergency hearing with the Postmaster General, and the first all-virtual Democratic National Convention begins with speakers ranging from John Kasich to AOC. Then voting rights attorney Marc Elias talks to Jon Favreau about his legal fight against Donald Trump’s efforts to sabotage the election.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Welcome applied in America, I'm John Favour, I'm John other activities or
Today's pot, I talked to voting rights attorney, Mark Elias, the man who is leading the legal fight against Donald Trump effort to sabotage the election before that
about the latest in the republican war on the Post office Democrats
sitting back and what the party hopes to achieve at this week's national convention, but first slow.
Happy birthday. Thank you. Thank you.
Birthing area inside you
can we insert some music here? Let's Rebecca yeah? Let's do wonderful.
How is the show this great lover leave its shares and made a joint Ben roads? Alyssa master? Monica.
We re time. We had a great time
little Belarus on the show I heard
without total Belarus. Here we go around. You know trumps trumps, watching
Lukashenko and a sort of like taken take
notably like, oh Galicia, is bad,
they're, going to balance out the window and ever my birthday, you know the Democratic Party got me a cameo for mercy. Awesome. Let's go
also love at night or trying to be a Youtube star Ass, like Dan.
We have a new series, called speechwriters react and we have a few episodes up or we break down past convention speeches from Obama, Hilary and Biden talk about what works and what doesn't check it out. You tube dot com,
Flash Prohibited Dan moved into that high Paulsen, Bel AIR Moussa
science is our common here's, the thing: here's the thing
sucks for Dan is. It seems like a good idea, but if the, if they did the sponsors,
deals don't come in your Owen, a ton of rent on a big mansion. That's right! That's right! Well, you know he's good on Tik Tok, so it'll probably be fine congrats to Dan,
and finally, the Democratic National Convention start today and where streaming the whole thing live. Each night this week on cricket dot com convention, starting at six p, DOT M Pacific nine, P, DOT M Eastern will be doing group threads to cover the big speeches with some of the host and staff here at crooked.
On Thursday. We have a special live pots of America. Pre show or will have some fun, take some questions and also hosted the world premier of the dock.
Entry short dress rehearsal. It's about
progressive organizers, who pulled off a stunning upset in this year's Wisconsin special action, even as republic,
did everything they could to stop people from voting. Just like now, it's
It's a deceptive title. It is not about ragtag group of high school kids putting on brigaded, but it shouldn't when it should have been
Then you can find all the details, a crooked dot, complex convention. We will see tonight in every night this week I get to the news last week
the President of the United States so that he opposes funding the. U S postal service,
the money would go towards making sure people can vote by male during a pandemic were crowding inside appalling place? Could literally kill you in response to this?
Into increasing reports of male delays and disruptions House Democrats announced on Sunday that they'll be returning
early from their summer recess to deal with this looming crisis, which includes votes on legislation
in an emergency hearing at which postmaster General Louis to joy will be called to testify and as of just now, he has agreed
Tommy. We found out over the weekend of the postal service, sent letters to all, but four states warning them that their cause
male in voting deadlines may not allow enough time for the delivery and return of people's ballots in so those votes may not be counted. Can you walk through some of the reasons the Post office may not be able to
liver these ballot, and I would love nothing. We're John. Thank you again to Donald Trump for making us talk about the post office constantly. It's all we want to do here
I think the thing to know for people to know the background to the post office is in bad financial shape and we can get into why in a minute, but they need a big infusion of cash from Congress and Republican so far refused to do so,
Trump also recently put a big donor named Louis de joy in charge of the postal service that guy's miss.
Seems to be too just got the place, a bunch of management change.
So, specifically to joy. His lips,
it overtime for postal workers, he's told them. They can't take extra trips to make sure that everything has to
but on times things are two stacking up in these offices.
And in very solemn move, they remove six.
Hundred and seventy one male sorting machines from various facilities. He also reassign some top executives in Washington, so
Ass the reason for this morning
slow down in the reason you're, seeing all these warnings that ballots might not arrive on time to be counted and
let's just stepping back. This is a little silly if you think about it, because if the poster,
can absorb the sort of male around Christmas. They should be able to do like one thou from each of us, but enough of that, so these republic
They want to use this financial play. The post offices, in as an excuse to private, has a whole system. They say: look the post office, it's in a hundred and sixty billion dollars of debt. It's a broken systemic can't work. What they dont tell you is its. Therefore,
In two thousand six Congress pass a law that requires a post office to pre fund the cost of its staffs healthcare benefits seventy five years into the future, so that
counts for one hundred and twenty billion of their a hundred and sixty billion dollar debt in top
that Congress at their prices and metals in their operations, such as the mess, so this order
help with the fact that trunk cates vote by mail- and he said
on the record that if we don't give the post office this funding, you can't have universal vote
now so Trump as married, these two things, his hatred for the postal service, which is based on this interact,
your belief that somehow Amazonas fleecing them his hatred,
democracy and vote by male republican efforts to privatized systems,
and of all together- and so this Megatrend voter Suppression and Korea, it's a toxic brew, love
The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board Road today. The Democrats are culpable for spinning post office conspiracies without evidence
and that state election official should just change their deadlines. So you see
out of this now that, like these, are unfounded,
conspiracies the Trump is trying to sabotage the post office. Why is this? Why is this bullshit here
so on. That line of reasoning actually reminds me a little bit about of the pandemic. Experts pointed out earlier on in the dynamic that, if you
Do the right thing: if you sound the alarm correctly and you achieve
go. You want right, whether at stopping of endemic or preserving democracy. In hindsight, what use what you did looks like overkill, your warnings look like they went too far, so it's like ok
glad that you're sanguine about it right wing pundits. I know that you don't care what happens either way:
but for those of us on the outside watching us, it's a terrifying to terrifying prospect that will discover on November forth that we didn't do enough on November. Second,
now onto the actual fact
of the matter
It is actually right now hard to separate three distinct problems- one. It is trumps effort through to joy, to purposely attempt to subvert and dealings intimacy election to as Tommy points out implementing a long term ideological plan to burden the post office.
Cost cut and undermine the basic premise of a public good through this service and promoting privatisation
right that's also in a long term project and then three. There is just
generational failures to invest in
institutions, systems infrastructure across our society. You know one one piece of news that that came out over the past couple days:
is that some of the male sorting machine shutdowns may have at least been planned before DE joy took over now? Does that tell you
it should happen. Of course, not all
tells you is some of these problems. Some of these attempts to dismantle the post office proceed Trump and will follow Trump. That doesn't mean we should fight to stop and we had to attack. Each of these
current problems, the long term agenda, the short term attempt at basically a coup and then that
of generational failure to invest in our public goods. Yelling. There's this debate, you know! Is it Trump
trying to deal with gentlemen. The election. Will yes, because that, yes or or is it the law
running project of conservatives to complete
we d legitimize institutions by starving them, a funding so that they can deliver services also true, either way
The effects are the same right now, which is there is a risk that ballots won't be counted in an election where ballots need to be sent through the mail to keep people safe. That is the effects of the intention whether its typical
public and bullshit or Donald Trump Authoritarian, bullshit. The attention is almost beside the point at this point, because the regime
are the same, and I just make two two other points about this one. You know when the pen
gon, spends a trillion dollars on an airplane that can't fly in the rain. No one says the Pentagon's operating at a loss and then to the focus on the
stop as in their desire to make sure that it's on the hook for its pension and retirement liabilities
that kind of scrutiny it is under. None of that comes when
signed to bail out financial firms when it comes to the lower programme,
I'm still a dozen other ways that we bow corporations overtime, business
Onus is only on the post office because they hate the post office because it's a public service and it is done by unions, and that has been the agenda for a long time. I will say the other very sinister effect of all this is. It is- and I think this could be trumps intention here- is that it is freaking people out about whether their boats are gonna be counted, and so it is instilling fear and a lot of voters that they may be shouldn't even use mail in voting at all, and you are you're, seeing as on twitter to like people are sending around pictures of post office boxes locked up, freaking out about that and like it turns out. That is a completely normal practice that they do
stop people from stealing mail and there is actually a male slot in the back of the house that you can put in male right, like so, but its understandable that people are getting free doubt because Donald Trump assaying mail in voting is fraud, and then there are
actual disruptions of service that are happening because of what the joy has been doing at the post office. And what this is doing is it is, you know it is hurting people's faith that the mail will actually work and its not just Bell
they make may get laid here? The New York Times reports that in rural Michigan, diverse
medicine, that used to arrive in three days now takes almost two weeks: NBC reports that milk,
Mary veterans are waiting weeks for lifesaving medications from the Vizier Americans. Generally love the Post office Tommy. You think this kind up back firing on
but the Republican you look. I think it could. I think it's gonna take a lot of work because
Let's be honest: it's hard to drive post office concerns to the front page of the newspaper, but I think the press
he's a view this as an attack on voting rights and democracy itself and reporting
accordingly in a me in saying that you know preventing black,
Africans from voting has been a core strategy of the Republican Party for years in that year. The discourse around
These questions are still softened with these euphemisms and like bullshit spend about voter integrity and which is the call for what it is. I do think that Democrats needed
a lot more work to sound the alarm about what's happening locally right, so
find a bunch of veterans and seniors in your community were waiting for medications, lift up their stories. Fine service members who serve in your district or overseas. In her word about their votes.
Counted. This is actually another instance where the total lack of
Google news is really bad right, like normally the local paper would be highlighting exactly.
Kind of stuff people would be reading at you be hearing about a better, not getting medication,
instead were waiting on these stories to get found and felt her up in national media outlets.
We're not hearing enough about what these slowdowns view for these specific community. So Democrats need to do all this work, yet the educated constituents I was happening. Why and that this is an urgent need, because the deposed others is a bedrock government function. Right of veto
like the first real core thing that the government did in some ways like for there was a while that I think a quarter of federal workers were postal workers. So it's a big deal
just kill it slowly and to try to do it in this
six months before the first ever election in a pandemic. It seems obviously purposeful to me a pupil from April
so that the Post office has a ninety one percent approval rating. Ninety one percent and you're right I mean that demagogic, we do more, that's liberal, FF
your brand Joe Mansion?
doing what you are talking about over the weekend, going to a post office, making videos but have people's matzoh getting delays. So this is something,
In any event, there are reports that some Republicans, of course they do, they want to be named.
Elected Republicans are also concerned about this too, especially Republicans who represent rural areas, who was getting hurt by these post office delays when you don't get their medications, seniors veterans, rural Americans, all constituents of the Republican Party right Now- and I did you- know- politicos playbook over the weekend- had a round up of how this is breaking through in the local news, the local news that still exists as you
now, because there's not enough of any more but it is like it. It is so important to sound the alarm, because I think one of the most important things we can get out of this is just a wariness and education, so that and we'll talk about this, so that people can vote as early as possible. To avoid this house Democrats are for
making moves they're coming back from Greece s early on Saturday to vote on a piece of legislation that would prohibit the postal service from implementing any changes to operations or service that had already been a place at the beginning of twenty twenty and then there's the hearing with the joy on August. Twenty fourth love at what can this vote in de Joys testimony actually accomplish and like? How likely is it the trumpet republic?
ends well agreed upon the poster. Yeah me they look. I think it's on adding it's good that there I can on their conniston.
Wagons and have
horses slowly, take them back to the nations capital. I think that that's terrific, obviously
a harrowing journey so glad that they're making it it's good luck.
Every once in a while Trump says something brazen as he always does it. He surprised to find out. He should know music, but I said tell it I say: the
I say the races, demagogic, authoritarian
out loud all the time. Why does this one bother you when you haven't really understand so he's got to walk back a little bit of his his anti mail
rhetoric because its theirs. They want that to happen, but they dont want
the credit for it, I believe, like meadows and the administration, is signal they be open to a bill just about the post office. It seems, like republicans, would be
you mean, but the thing about the male is you dont have to pay attention to politics. It comes your house or doesn't come to your house right. It affects everybody. Ineffectual
but don't pay attention when an issue like this touches people that dont pay attention, it has
some more political power, but yeah MC. I feel that you know Democrats need to get this get to joy to testify.
Pass a bill with a bunch of money. That is a bunch of restriction, so tromp can't hold up the money to joy, cannot spend
money they need to pass a bill. They cut, tries to see
on the corners to make sure that the money that Congress appropriates to the post office is spent to make sure that services continue through November and Internets year in any
delays any cost, cutting measures, any efforts to
relocate male sorting, two central locations, because it's more of costs for effective but takes longer any of those things that the joys and try to implement should be should be pause in the law. I feel pretty happy that he's gonna testify battalion.
It made me think I have it. I have a little bit of an impeachment feeling. Capistran. Are you feeling where it's like? At the end of the day, we can get him to testify and I hope it raises public awareness, but I don't, I think, we're in the same spot. We were like you know: Democrats have the house, we are in the Senate. We don't have the presidency,
we can do here is really public pressure in public aware and other pressure public aware like. I would want to get him on the record about why these Nell delays are happening and then tell a story about who is getting harmed.
Talk about how this guy's an unqualified donor, who has major measure
financial conflict of interest, as he is a huge financial stake in a competitor to the post office, that's got piss people off, but then I think I would be specifically focused on Republicans. Were up for reelection in rural areas,
so tell a story about someone in Montana, because that is a top target and we might be able to get Steve deigns to two fold tell
story about a constituent or a veteran inane, because Susan Collins's up and she's floated the idea that should be willing to pass some sort of Belarus.
So I'm glad you're doing this. I also like that they're trying to counter programme the republican Convention to the extent that one can do that. Look!
respect the hustle good for them for doing this brain boiler will be at least a little bit happy. Some good oversight
this good oversight. I do think or any no, I'm gonna talk with Elias about this in the interview, but I think ultimately, the plan for us has to be figure out how to get around. All of this shit and request ballots early vote, early drop off balance as opposed to setting them through the male massive public education campaign on the part of Democrats and anyone who cares about the mail and hypocrisy and voting, and what would I think we have to avoid is to let Donald Trump win by making us think it's just not worth it to vote or making people think it's not worth it devote because it's gonna be rigged anyway, because that is the ultimate plan right. Everyone's confused he's, throwing all this bullshit the wall and people say I don't.
I should put my balance email. I don't ovation worlds, probably not worth it. It's all rigged, you know, and so I do think we have to get people to make a plan to vote, despite whenever they never got me. It's worth its worth, remembering that, like that Donald Trump
de legitimizing, the elections so that he can remain in office and Donald Trump
de legitimizing, the election. So we can leave while preserving his ego, sound the same on Twitter
but the Americas brought by taxpayers.
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but the weak ahead today
the beginning of the very first, all virtual democratic national convention, the event com
on the heels of Joe Biden. Selection of common Harris's is running.
Along with a number of poles that show the ticket beating Trump by an average of eight points.
And that most voters approve of Biden putting Harris on the ticket
it's always been a week since the big VP decision,
haven't, had you guys his reaction yet to the pick em and how its played so far Tommy? What you think so look the rule out was excellent, calmly Harris's,
each was excellent right when you unpack, like the resin
when you re at all out is so impressive. Her personal story is the daughter of immigrants. I think resonated with tons of people, especially first generation Americans, and she delivered the hell out of it. She just an incredible
talented speaker and the other thing she does. That I noticed is that Obama was
very good at responding to republican attacks with a joke with a smile with humor. Just like take the edge off the response. Harris is extra,
only good at this. She has lines in that speech which uses gutting Donald Trump, but she delivers
with a smile. It lands. Well, it's very impressive. It's something you frankly like I'd like see by
do a little bit more he's a little bit more humor when he is dealing with this stuff. Looking
the knock on Harris's presidential campaign ways. You know that it
and seem like it always had a clear message or direction, and I think they would obviously admit that like dropping up for Iowa was not the goal. That was not what success looks like, but navigating that huge unruly democratic primary is very different than prosecuting the case against Trump, and she is an expert at process
in a case, and we saw it already, so I was energized by it. I have a lot of people who said I am surprised at how excited by this pick it wild. That Biden raise forty eight million dollars in two days after the speed.
There is already some polling, fifty four percent of Americans, like the pic sixty four percent of Democrats, are strongly approving of the pic and then intellect stepping back. I mean very technical here
this is a historic picked for women. African Americans, Indian Americans, Jamaica means
It's also, you know we're a party where a lot of our leadership is pretty old in Harris. At fifty five represents generational change and its excite
and so I guess lasting is
they're, probably listeners who wish someone
I got it or they say, and I have a problem with Harris's record or policy positions in that
it's ok. We are not here to tell
to get over it or are they hold your nose? I just think you need to
member that politicians are humans. They change they evolve, so you know make Harris and make Biden account for their records
but know that they are not bound by them. You can advocate and push them to change.
So we really interesting to see what the campaign does.
They deploy her right like they're gonna? Do this joint interview only BC? She gives a major speech. The Dnc then there's the VP debate. Those are the big moments, but he'll be.
Interesting to see other user, and between gives there's no stumping.
Let me, however, another with its been almost a week since the roll out. How do you think it's how you think it's gone,
What's your reaction, but look. I agree with everything the Tommy just said. I think what was striking to me is. I had come to know that commoner Harris
in key moments, shines right. She in in that debate with Joe Biden right. She should have crushes in hearings where she really needs to have a moment and step up. She can make those moments really count and really go far, and it was striking to me just how much that energy that capability was needed in this campaign. We have four people running for President vibe
Vice president, she is not just the best messenger in that group. She is the best messenger by a mile
just seeing Biden and Harris together sitting at
two deaths side by side, getting briefing seeing her go up and give a speech it. It creates
such ay, a contrast with Trump and pens, and she just so effective in those set pieces in those made for tv moments, and I think that that
specially given that there are increasing and she gave an announcement speech with no crowd and she didn't really really well, and so the
that she is so adept at that at a so effective. In those moments, I think, is why she is going to be really valuable in the big moments, but also between some of Trump quickly went from calling her nasty to embracing his Bertha routes and saying that he heard she doesn't meet the requirements to run. You just heard that, which is what I thought,
interesting because then his campaign walked back over the weekend in favour of the argument. That comma is just too liberal, like Jason Miller is another one. This case closed for us on this, and why do you think they don't see the birth tourism is aware
this time are well look. Let's see, I mean they always play footsie with this stuff right. They throw it out there than they get it out there into the ether, and then they walk it back. They play that game a few times. I dont know that their walking back means that there are not getting the mileage out of it that they want a majority
the absurd it's it's Riddick
This obviously I mean she is born out of absurd
complies Alai. It is a but see with the Obama. Bertha resume was a conspiracy theory that everybody was in Cahoots,
to pretend he was eligible. The comma Harris can Spirit
He is actually just a kind of crackpot reading that
when he takes it, there's no actual missing information. Everybody has the same set of facts. It's the same set of facts that applied
six or so other american present, including down from Spain, because somebody told him once in a meeting that they were the same Andrew Jackson, but but I do think it speaks to the fact that, like look,
John Regulations, Donald Trump retreated something that mentioned you, I'm sure, you're your memories war just flow
It's just the highways, any all fuckin I've on people that I was yet. But I believe that day you know she's
she's, an anti a general and also
a corporate cop and they're gonna, just throw both of the man us for a long time or you can see where we talk about this. A couple episodes
I think, on the new ad strategy right, which is too still call Joe Biden Liberal, but they ve sort of sand at the edges off the exaggerations that he's like anti for general.
Oh it's just like he raises taxes. Allow me super liberal and inserted the more traditional republican consultants around Trump right now, to the extent that there are some really do want to just be what they think they need to run this campaign and just say that calmly Harrison Joe Biden, this too liberal, and so, when I said last week on the body that Common Harris has in fact embrace progressive policies in the Senate,
for the green new deal she had an initial signed under Burns Medicare for all bill. Some out, like they all sent around my comments. All week is like some big gotcha commerce. It's like I'm sure she would admit that she is for those policies still she's, proud,
before them their party light so annoying when the Republicans like play act these these revelations and the media repeats em. It's like. Oh no, we said facts out loud as if that's real change you could go,
this bill accepting backs with birth or as an instrument like first of all,
I didn't know, I needed another reason to not read news weak because they wrote this big peace, this birth or peace, but
tread on the heels of their Jared Kushner puff puppies about the pandemic response. So you know I look forward to never seeing it in print again. I guess I don't feel like I'm not commence Republicans
and in birth or ism, similar to what love is said, because you know the thing to know about birth or ism is that is, it is not and has never been about eligibility or the cost
to share in it was a way to launder racist attacks about Obama through the media. Right that allow them do so
Obama was other, he was boring. Fox news claimed he was educated in Madeira and that spelled out in so many different ways. Right, Marco Rubio,
sit. His spokesman said: Obama was intentionally trying to destroy America in a Rubio himself, said: Obama deliberately weakened America's was, as part of this other
strategy. So I'm waiting for a version of this to come back because Trump always gets back to these Fisher around race.
In our on gender. I do hope that the press has come
a long way on this subject, because in twenty eleven
to succeed. They were a disaster. Tromp was repeatedly welcomed on mainstream new shows to spread this lie. He was on the today show the view
ABC New CNN was like a core part of his message that, like they were
cursorily fact check, but it really just spreading this Bertha bullshit everywhere until Trump finally walked back in the summer time,
Sixteen and we are also at grateful for it. So you know look. Hopefully it will be ineffective. Hopefully the press will shut it down. I expected to come back here that is,
through an unfortunate. Let's talk about what to expect from the convention itself. There'll be no
speeches in stages in crowds in Milwaukee. Instead, the Washington Post reports that it will involve quote a behind the scenes curve, but four hundred
with operation centres in New York, Milwaukee, LOS Angeles and Wilmington Delaware, with quote plans to break
As to the nation, hundreds of live video feeds from living room,
national monuments and stages around the country. Homebound delegates will be dialed into quick feeds of alive speeches, so they're real time. Actions can be broadcast.
The country as if they were in the same room as the speakers,
While the only exist before we get to the analysis, they need to make a graphic of Joe Biden Hole.
Of electric wire and his mouth like a dog that says we'll be right, back technical difficulties.
Just in case they just need something to throw up.
In case one of these things. I said: I'm scared for them to this day,
Said in that story love it that, like we have been working on, not everything
in fact, most things in the convention. Most pieces of the convention haven't been pre recorded and we haven't tested all this so like a lot of this is alive and a lot of this we're just gonna like see how it goes
excited any or night hack person, any tech person. Anyone involved in this logistics the advance peep
anyone involved in planning this
Thinking of you, we know how big this job,
Oh, my god, we're hoping for you. We will not do your best. Do you,
her best junior people, involved in putting this on we're on your site on your side, so stepping back from
Amid the three of us have now been through for conventions right for a twelve sixteen, we ve been to a couple in person. What do parties typically hope to get out of a convention weak and what are some of the ways this year might be different, love it well,
yeah, I mean you know a big room filled with people celebrating the anointing other, not of a nominee look. It's been now.
A long time since a nomination was truly in doubt right. It's been a long time since we had a real floor fight, I mean you know. We had that moment in two thousand aid, where Hillary Clinton called off the stop. Your counting stop your counting its birth,
go bombers and everybody was very excited and die. You know in a window, Rothschild finally gave up her. Full authority uttered a cry deep, don't got, but
So it's really become kind of an opportunity to serve craft a store
about the race and building up to the new
the nation of the vice president and the nomination of the of the President on the ticket- and you know I would say it- has
been a place where you ve, seen like real,
rising stars can have emerged as the leaders of the Party like Barack Obama in two thousand and eight. It's also been places where people
De I should the bed
So it's a mix, but you know
Do you think the one big moment that has been deprived of Joe Biden? Is
This is an opportunity to be on the same stage as a president to have a big crowd in a big arena. Talking about big things before the end
our country and the kind of scale has been taken away
and I think that that matters more for a challenger than it does for the comment, because Donald Trump has all the the trappings of
Why does but other than that? I think it's about figuring out how to tell
story in a way that compelling, without the trappings of a big convention floor
Tommy everyone's always looking for biogas bank outside of a convention. What makes it
what makes this year, maybe a little trick here for the buyer, I mean like these are such an acronym stick of thence that maybe we won't have connections in the future by me. Look, you do two things right. You want to fill in everything you can about the Biography of Europe, of your nominee
and your vice president in the Gaza is most inspiring way possible. So there will be a beauty
we produce video about Joe Biden. Life has lost its time in the Senate as time is VP about doktor buying their family will be similar videos about Comma Harris and then in a core part
of that story in that bio and those values will be repeated in every major speech. So by the end of it, you can't help it understand who Joe Biden is right. Obama's two dozen for conventions speech
We remember it as this coming up party about him. We remember red states and blue states, but in the middle of that speech there was a tight really compelling org
meant for John Kerry and John Edwards in what they would do for the country. In twenty twelve, the Dnc play
It's like seven minute, like many by optic about Obama's first term, that was about the financial crisis, the Bin Laden operation and was narrated by
Biden, Michelle Obama in Bill Clinton,
two contextual eyes and tell that story associate
with that story. Is she's gonna be
stained, salt and Donald Trump in his record, which is why tonight's agenda is through
crisis is pandemic. Economic downturn in racial justice and
here. That message from politicians but then also these-
lorries from real people who have been impacted by the policies that I think those could even be more impressive than the political, the partition speeches. So this is where
it's all digital, it's all remote, I suspect, will see all kinds of caused action for like
Digital organizing events are fund. Raising, but
can you cut her was quoted, saying this year's
Engine is sixteen our shorter than a typical convention
So in some ways, maybe that will make all the like cable, booking and spin and conversations around the convention. Even more important, I don't know, will see.
You're welcome America energetic sixteen hours you're. So now I mean campaigns spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising and the these conventions are free, infomercials. They.
You know from nine to eleven at night, usually there longer than that Dick, the cable networks, a problematic them. The networks to broadcast networks will only take them from ten to eleven each night. You get one hour, so the only people that says that the question about these conventions is like who are they for right, bear not fur
like, if you are voting for Joe Biden, if you are voting for Donald Trump already, this dimension is not really,
we're going to watch it. I hope we can be entertained by we're going to be talking about it. A lot to the extent
me that you just mentioned- they can be an organizing tool. They are they. They are for people who are already made up their minds, because, hopefully you know, even if your voting for Joe Biden, if there's a call to organise or get friends to register, devote these conventions. You go do that, so I fully believe they should be in organizing till, but really what I think both parties are hoping for is that in the ten o clock hour, when people to an end on broadcast television who are not like political news junkies, like the people who watch cable news, there is basically,
two types of voters. There swing voters who haven't decided who their voting for yet tramper Biden and in those people who haven't decided if they're going to vote at all, who tend to be younger, who tend to be people of color, who tend to be more cynical about the process, and I think from the Democrats perspective. We both need to reach voters who are swing. Voters were going between vitamin trump and we and we specially to reach voters who may not vote at all, because they are tired of the system and in very cynical and so those I think, of the two audiences to have in mind. As we see all this, because a lot of it is not for partisans. For me, like that's how I'm gonna watch these. Should these conventions and easy me different, I think, for the democratic convention is something John. We talked about in our on Youtube video that
Joe Biden, has to both you know reassure people who are who are looking for normalcy and reach people, for whom normal was a crisis for a very long time, and I think the big challenge for that this convention is how you gonna tell that story, and then on the republic inside you know, pence gave a speech think what the over the weekend or last couple days.
And apropos of nothing he's like
and by the way, Comma Harrison Joe Biden they're going to take away your red meat. There come to your house and you gonna take your drivers.
So crazy at its, and it is crazy. You know the.
When John Kennedy asked Rob like. What's your second term agenda, he just like didn't, have an answer. It used to be that of the republic inside the kind of,
the right wing. Populism was the icing on a kind of like corporate country club republican cake right.
Paul Ryan's agenda, never going to be popular, so they do all this other all this other stuff from Reagan to Bush Trump they're, all doing it to kind of like
stir up their base and stir up the grievances to get out the vote, so they can kind of push through the programme, the cake and with tromp right now and
like it's just the icing? It's just the fearmongering. It's just the grievance, there's no actual programme, and so I think that, like
I'm gonna be watching, is: are they going to have a programme? Are they gonna have a positive case for a second term so too?
its prime time line up is Monday former
looking governor, John Cassock Senator Bernie Sanders and
were first lady, Michelle Obama, what a crow, what a crook, I will say,
in the ten to eleven hour. I think it's only Bernie and Michel but case it somewhere in the prime time. Don't
It was a strategy behind that line up and- and do you think the big tent is too big there I mean look. Am I a big case EC fan.
No! You sort of well known. You said that for years, he's like kind of well known for being asked,
all in his politics are obviously way more conservative the mind, but look eight. He did a brig ajar between sixteen of rebranding himself as a sort of softer alternative trump, and I think a lot of people came away from that cycle.
Liking him. I think the goal this year is not to say case. It is a Democrat is to say this.
You're? Unlike any other Joe Biden? Candidacy is a place you can go if you're, a democratic, socialist, a moderate or republican, who just can't stomach trump for a variety of reasons,
and like if we can reach in turn out all those people. That is a very effective message that a lot of the country and so
our case it and other former GNP elected the best way to sell it. Maybe like they'll, get attention because they have no idea. They have profiles on any time. Someone from the other party speaks it a convention. It makes news, we all recall two thousand for when a Georgia Democratic himself Miller made a fool of himself at the convention in Part B,
the challenge Chris Matthews to a door which was weird but before that you gave this speech, is destroying John Kerry and was treated as big news and so people I think Stephanie cutter?
The votes running this convention are hoping to get the same treatment
longer term. You know the videos you see coming from about republican voters against Trump are more effective. Like average people voted for trot, maybe
largely, but a Republican in their lives explaining why this time they just can't, I think those messengers are really powerful. I think you'll see those types of people in TAT. Piece is in speeches from just of average. Citizens in that might be more effective, but you know that the big name
getting the attention right now. Let it there's been some my consternation that air Sea only has a minute to speak on Tuesday night, whereas classic I guess it's gonna get five tonight. Most of the speeches are very short. I think some of the keynote are like ten to fifteen or that the final primetime ones
What what do you think about this whole idea? I think ass. He should have had more time. I think it's less import
may the comparison and more to attack this question is
whether someone like John case it should speak at the convention. I think one points that
activists on the left have made for a long time is. Democrats have been too focused on
symbols and not enough on actual substance that not too much on performance and not about that
about the under girding policies. In this case, junkies,
speaking at the democratic convention is a symbol, a symbol of what well, I think it's for the most
a symbol about how uniquely dangerous trumpets if it was also a symbol that Joe Biden is moderating as policy views
lifting toward the center to get at the kind of people that agree with John K. Sick. I would have a bigger problem with that, but I think what we are seeing is that of two things can be true. One is that progressives and the left have successfully pulled the democratic
party and, as a result, their consensus pick Joe Biden to the left. His policies have shifted to the left. Him
the green new deal. He has embraced a host of of democratic reforms, economic policies that bring him to the left of Hillary Clinton and twenty sixteen, and certainly to the left of Barack Obama. In two thousand and eight
when thousand twelve. At the same time, they're trying to build a case that tromp is a unique
During again, what I said before I think applies right. He is trying to tell a story.
About going back to normal, while also telling a story about how normal
was horrible for a lot of people. I think you can do that and have John K. Sick and Bernie Sanders speak on the same night, so I dont have a problem with it. Yet we look
if it were up to me, I love hearing as they speak. I take a every night at the convention.
Later, I think, she's,
she's arises during the party like yet do that again it's! This is not for me recklessness but like
and I also by the way, think that, as he could do more in a minute than most of the speakers, this week will be able to do in twenty minutes. I just that. That's you know, that's why she S. As for John case it right John case it is made. People have pointed out, is
aunt, I choice right and he has a whole bunch of other pretty conservative publicans positions, but especially in tat choice. No one! We are not being asked to vote for John K, sick or for junk basic to implement any of his policies. In fact, the opposite is true, John case. It saying I am anti choice, but I am going to in this election vote for a ticket that is pro choice that is probably going to install Supreme Court judges that protect the rights to Jews and pass laws that
the right to choose for the next four years and possibly justices for regeneration, and I'm gonna do that, even though I don't agree with it, because Donald Trump is so fucking dangerous, so
all you other Republicans who might feel strongly about certain positions like choices of like that. I'm telling you
put that aside, because our democracies and danger, because Donald Trump is pressure and assets over Joe Biden and will that be effective? Who the fuck knows? Is it worth a try? Yeah, probably it probably is because again we need two types of voters. We need people who voted for Trump and are now going to vote for Joe Biden who vote of Republican Pass. We're not gonna go Democrat and we need people who feel that the system is working for them. They might not even vote and those of the people that Bernie Sanders and Elsie can sometimes reach, and if we didn't have Bernie Sanders Nancy
shame on us as we would reach those people and if we don't have the John case it to the world trying to reach the other swing. Voters than shame on us. There, too, you gotta do both icing on the, as he thing like, but people first started talking about her when she won the primary. I thought this must be a little bit overhead, just as it was so. If you save the praise- and then I saw her speech
get this Bernie Rally in Iowa in, and I got it right in and it was being
She told a story about needing to get a blood test and she couldn't afford it, and then she had to go to a free clinic and we hours and hours to get the time
that way this happened when she was running for Congress right. If you watch the net
let's documentary about her campaign.
To bring down the house. You see her
being ice when she's working at a bar like I've, had a job you ve got the job. Billions people had that job. So Sheikh you, you see her
You think, ok, she gets my value should get working people
They need to make sure that their programming,
enough speakers that are talking about the working class that are talking
In that connection, I totally agree with voters right until wits.
Civic ABC like on top of that really truly authentic connection. She, just an unbelievably talented speaker, rightly TED Yo, HO learned
The hard way, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to give her one minute I dont mean
talk about it like Twitter, has in terms of a zero sum choice between air sea and classic. Because
He can argument for both of them and I could make an hour
meant for a lot of kind of milk, toast boring Democrats, not speaking, and then you give those minutes.
I see, but these tend to be political decisions that go through lots of annoying screens that probably dont led to the best product always but check all the right boxes. To that point on me, like the speakers, I'm looking forward to our they announced at the keynote addresses. Instead of one person, it's gonna be seventeen peoples can be Stacy Abrams and sixteen serve up and coming Democrats very young, progressive, diverse democratic elected some people who just ran for office the first time a couple years ago, and I do think you are absolutely right that showcasing Democrats who can say I was just like you like last year, I was, I was a working class person. I have never thought about politics before
disenchanted with politics myself and I decided to run for the first time, because I was disenchanted with politics and do something about it. That's a yo, see story. That's like Jamal Bowman Story right, like hadn't showcasing these politicians, I think, is actually very useful. More useful than a lot of sort of the older politicians at around for a link
as you guys? How do you make a seventeen percent keynote? How does it work
yeah. I do not know how this is going to let you know. I think we re put four soprano for alto,
or Barras Army five base. May me ass space based. My other question, for you guys is. What does
Applause line, look like an all remote all zoom convention. It is no one like you have your family applied for you. Do you hopefully skip them? There's gonna be some clunker
look. We all know a lot of us be traders who are working on these speeches and many them our friends may them or fantastic that the best there is so I have faith that they will not be writing out up, like I dont think you right out applause lines. I think you're right speeches without applause lines in the. If, unless I mean reading that washing poster, it was kind of confusing because they said that there would be real time reaction from some people who are getting the speeches beamed live into their homes, so maybe you'll be able to hear some applause. But if I was the writer or the speaker working on the speech, I would not be counting on any applause. So I would be writing a speech that is very conversational almost like you're doing a direct, a camera kind of thing, and not that you're trying to go for the typical applause which won't give it the power
a typical convention speech at all, but I think, is better than landing. Some fuckin clunker that someone thought was a good applause ion end and then no one doesn't it yeah. I also I I've been thing that this too, I think not all applause lines are created equal and there are kind of joke ease, speech, applause lines that are either smirky or cutesy. That will not work like we'll just rumble, just terrible
but I still think that there is power in a kind of the fury of this moment and if there is one advantage to the facts
that there are no audiences right now is. It lends like a real seriousness
this moment. It really I'm highlights how sad and broke in time it is
and that creates an opportunity I think for like in a speech. They would get applause, they're, not applause minds. They are people speaking from places of emotional, personal fury, and I think if they can bring that home, if they can do that, they really personal in there in their self of righteous anger and sadness like they would get applause if there were
applause. There is impotent Ulster work, that's maybe two specific, but nobler. Do I think that an Richards right, tangled how poor George Bush he was born with a silver foot and mouth,
SK in delivering that
the zoom. In your letter to almost famous like Dnc,
of all time. But how does it work? I don't know,
Sarah Pelayo like every hockey mom lips day, I silence or you,
Obama's, two thousand doesn't work convention speech like the first time he practiced it. It was bad because he didn't figure out how to ride the applause.
Sort of like keep it going in the right moment, and then it was.
Optional, because you could feel the momentum swelling underneath it, even if you can,
even here himself, delivering it right like what is that? What does that speech become this year?.
Well, I was just say time in that speech to me- is an example of what love it was talking about, which is the difference between sort of the classic applause line that you write. That can be cheap and funny verses and applause.
That you get because you built it and what was so brave about his writing of the beginning of that speech, is you didn't get applaud. You didn't land and a place that you got applause until
he got through the whole bio, his whole bio at the beginning of that speech and then finally, lands on his big applause. I we'd have now seems normal at the time, but
but at the time that wasn't normal at all. You immediately circumvented speech like big applause, like I'm John Kerry Rep,
boarding for duty right. You get a flashlight applause line applause. I break Obama, just told the story about his life in any lands news. It is heartening that it's a dislike to the last point that that to me it speaks
you like, ok, we're talking about the process. There is no audience two hours, it's gonna, be cases and be able to anybody,
rabanus everybody involved. Business does also need to step back and just sort of appreciate. The scale of the moment. Just like take a moment and remember how serious this crisis is.
How broken our society is right now, how much pain there is out there, and if that motivates what people say. I think that the logistics all of that now to make a point. Well, we will be on group,
red making fun of the chair I mean look. I may not not, however,
throne and everyone envisioned covering this this this convention a year ago. But you know
I guess it's nice in my house- it's easy to get to the bathroom
as our votes in America team set out that email, this morning's gave away for the convention and they wrote in the email when we started plain
the convention, one of the one of the notes taken, was party bus, Milwaukee question Mark
I was very happy to listen to a couple hours from now. I should
getting my classic late night.
In Room Caesar salad! That's like all! I. You know your land,
the order. The Cesar doesn't matter where you are taken. I didn't
had to go to the convention in two thousand eight, because someone, why won't name name rounds with Rand per Pfeiffer,
wouldn't let me go cuz. They wanted some rapid response team at the office, but in two thousand. For
gotta go, and I was a last minute addition like Gibson, like hey, you want to go
I figured out. I ended up sitting
this guy, who is so far
We saw gauging was asking me about myself, the entire
your time. Why was going there and the very end after blabbing, at this dude for two hours from Chicago to Boston as it comes
Why are you going to convection music? Oh, my data, speaking with Hunter Biden, was just like. Couldn't be nicer, just listen to me bullshit little time this just over excited twenty three year old, whatever.
Super nice guy, that's. Why was that two thousand for also taught me, but I was on a documentary crew carrying a boom MIKE behind Amy Goodman
and so I would virtue is do does
secrecy now, but I was not working,
democracy. Now I was doing a documentary about tat democracy now, but it ended up
me chasing now. At all bright with a boom trying to get her on the record for war crimes. No, I don't know if I got her, I almost couldn't get in to see. I think it was Edwards or carry speech to this. Hardly closing off all the doors, so I'm with a friend of mine really
sprinting around like trying to find an interest that still open, and I see a bunch of people going through this one. You know area to get to the load to get down to the floor whenever
was, and I finally to run up to and there they are you with them and guessing with them, and I need him in her and we are right now we get up and we realise
Now we just talked our way into being with the road crew for the black eyed peace, and then we just escaped from there and went to the floor and watch very fun.
Tonight, we'll all be on our coasts?
remember another undue member trading badges to get further and further. And yes, yes, yes, you,
I get the animals add to the blue batch the Purple badge. I finally got the right back so that I could see abominable for through go.
Are a guy swell.
for now is not the right moment. The moment pandemic the moment while I'm looking forward to it should be
it would be interesting to see how they gonna pull this one off.
When we come back, I will be there
to democratic election attorney, Margolis POD, save America,
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sprayed in major new medicine cabinet with beekeepers. Naturally, I am now joined by attorney Mark Elias, the leader of the group, democracy, docket mark thanks for joining extravagant,
between Trump in the Post office and republican officials. All over the country is a lot of alike.
And shenanigans going on, to put it mildly, sometimes too many to keep them
of what are you most worried about, which is how I know what we should be most worried about:
So I most worried that we are going to have a situation in the fall where people are not going to be able to,
I'm easily, so I'm worried about
consolidation in poll closing that will leave the long lines and confusion, and that's not something,
all are talking a lot about, but I think we're gonna hear more about that. I remember
the primaries we saw along lines everywhere, as we saw coded preventing poles from being open and then I'm worried about the postal service.
The problems that were seen in the delays in absently ballot
locations going out in absentee ballots to
and absent about coming back. So, let's start with the pole, clothings first, then, what is sort of your strategy, legal strategy in regards to handling that yeah, so
You know. A lot of attention has been focused on the litigation that I ended up our proceedings, your sponsoring around around.
And we have litigation in seventeen states trying to make sure that there is adequate in adequate about by mail but
At the same time, that's been going on. We also litigating around in person voting opportunities while we
we're soon. George over long lines were and that from happening again, we're sure
Carolina to ensure that there is more had it within person voting. So you know we ve been
we ve been attentive to this, but I, but I expect that the
Public and shenanigans, as you say, will creep up, as we have seen them even when the sun
is shining and skies, are blue in everyone's healthy and pastures so eagerly,
strategy is focused on what you ve called the four pillars to safeguard vote by male. What are those four pillars? So the four pillars are
number one that the state should pay postage so that voters don't have to returns out that requiring voters to pay postage has a really negative.
Pact on return rights among young voters and voters of color number
true, is ensured
that all ballots that are marked by election. They count even if they received a few days afterwards.
One of the ways to combat a slow post office is the same
simply abide by the same rule that most people experience in their daily lives, which is something
do on election day as long as it's postmark by election day counts, and even if it comes in.
They are two later it still gets counted and a number of states require ballots we received by election day and that
We just in France, rises lots of voters and it allows for the kinds of application of the postal service that we see the trumpet ministration about it. The third is to make sure that signal from action while Caesar the laws that, when absently ballots come in, they compare the signature on the envelope with a signature file, making sure that those signature matching also applied in a year,
form and fair manner, so that we don't have a circumstance in which black and brown voters and young voters face higher rates of rejections than older voters and white voters.
And also that anyone whose ballot is rejected has an opportunity to be notified and contested and say that was my signature or to cure it. I'm prove that it was their signature than the last one is to allow
third party groups, community organisations to collect and deliver voted seal ballot. We know that in many parts of the country, for example, on native american reservations, there is not regular mail service, so the ability of groups to collect, voted seal ballots and drive them to the local post office or drive them to the
the election of office. I is critically important. So are you currently in legal battles to sort of make sure that all four of those pillars are upheld? Can you like soon to make sure that states pay for postage? Four priorities have to be served legislative strategies as well. We believe that that there is a constitution
rights, each of those for which is why right and a fire, and it's why we are right now suing in yet we ve sued in seventeen states for four pillars cases there is actually a section on the democracy that website. If we want to see it, that's entitled four pillars: the negation and they could see with the four pillars are they can also look at their own state and see him
Our state, how many of the pillars their state meets, but we are really getting in all of the battleground states right now to ensure that all for pleasure back.
You talk about some of the recent wins you ve had lately, yes
I've had a number of other important wines, and so I just on Thursday, of last week, Pennsylvania agreed, I have ended litigated against us on the election. They cut off. Moving from a received by two postmarked by deadline on Thursday, I was thrilled to see that the state reverse coarse and agreed, as now agreed with us on the post, marked by the sufferers Pennsylvania a few weeks.
Earlier. I bring to do prepaid postage, so that's victory for voters in Pennsylvania. I in Minnesota we yeah. We were able to successfully to allow for a party valid collection to strike down. There are states witnessed requirement for
four November, which is another barrier that voters face for absentee voting. Ah, they also one part without lawsuit I'll be achieved a postmarked by rather than see by deadlocked. So that was a win for voters have Minnesota
We want a case in Montana on ballot collection of, because it's very very important will say. Like Montana, you know south
airliner ensued, and now they ve breach prepay posted up. So you know it's it's mix and match throughout the Baron states, but we ve been, we ve been doing. Ok, do you have any lawsuits thither directly related to some of the steps?
post office has taken to disrupt service slowdown service,
We don't have any lawsuits against the postal service or the trumpet malnutrition and the postal service.
You know there will undoubtedly be others who bring those kinds of lawsuits. I stick to the voting rights arena.
And what I say is that, for my part, and doesn't see only part, but for my part
here we are bringing cases that that are going to help ameliorate that, for example,
if you had a rule that said that a ballot postmarked by election days that count, then the fact that the postal services delivered mouse
our really doesn't a fact whether that both cap treated me. It may delay the the results, but it's not gonna disenfranchised voter. If you, if you prioritize allowing reporting states, do prepaid postage,
We get people to vote there about earlier, because they don't sit on their balance while they go figure out where to get postage.
And obviously allowing third party ballot collection. I is away the voters can get their ballots in without having to go through. The males are so.
Working people do to make sure that Bacon cast their ballot safely without having to rely on the? U S, posters
yeah, so I recently posted an article on democracy back on bed listed for things that people do if they want to vote without the postal service. Let me first say that
there is some good information about this going round and there are some bad it for about this got round the bed. Information is the information that suggests there is a one size fits all solution. Different states are gonna, have different laws
better grow, allow some of these or others so, for example,
as you know, John from your your background in our work together,
we in person voting right, Rio
like you, know everyone who is in a state that has early in person no lines. You know
Today's take advantage. That's like forty one states at this point right: verily imprisonment! Yes, like early in person, voting like a super convenient way to vote that doesn't require the postal service.
The second is many states have dropped boxes,
that where the counties are put out, these steel boxes at tat allow our peoples.
Their valid in and those those those don't go through. The postal service they get directly picked up by the by the by
as I mentioned in some states, are there are community organisations are ruled that will come pick up your balloting and deliver that will do ballot collection and that's that's that's a solution around this
and in some states you can go directly to the county or the pulling
in hand. In your absence out again, not every state has all four of those I'm some states have won. Some states have three: it's important to check you
your check, your state, if you look at the Argo reposted, actually has links for each of those for you to confirm for your state what what's allowed? What's the
What's the competitive swing state that your most worried about in terms of not having enough of those options for voters?
depends on how you d find it. I would point you too:
North Carolina is probably the state that I am most concerned about, because it has fairly restrictive up by me.
Wars and, as you know, there is a very, very high reliance on early in person, particularly among African Americans,
So if you asked where am I wear? Where do I worry about the rules? I worried
North Carolina, because we need to make sure that that people are not being disenfranchised evoked by male process and that there is adequate in person voting, which is part of why we are showing for more of more in
soon really voting, and we are also suing too on the four pillars. You know, if you looked at the the the that traditional or not traditional, that we'll get the Pennsylvania was Anson Michigan frame.
I'd say that Michigan is probably were I'm focused. Most of my attention has vain. You have made some strides on on. None on things is, as result of our lawsuit,
I was constantly being heavily litigated, but other things
Pennsylvania is at the Trump campaign is suing, hence Albania to ban drop boxes which is like. Actually, if you take the developer. Second, is kind of incredible like me against dropbox as well. Tell you drunk campaign.
Well. I can ask you next, I mean Trump this morning. Lazy proud, as you saw him shore Street it about ballot boxes, about drop drop boxes
how do we? How do we ensure that there are more ballot drop boxes? Is this a state by state legal fight,
yeah. So it's you know again on the things that you didn't have on your trunk. Crazy thing go card at the beginning of the year of attacking the post.
Service would have been won, but certainly going
hard negative on dropped boxes wouldn't
have been something that you would have singled out,
something the President United States, which would engage unbelievable.
Marcie one. So many of these lawsuits already. I think people not enough people know how hard you guys work and how and how successful you are.
Working, people do to support your legal work and everything else you're doing to fight verse oppression, the upcoming elections. Yes,
a few things? First of all, if you go to our website to moxie back to back, you can sign up and be kept informed on what we were doing to donate to five thousand one hundred and thirty four democracy, DR
fund about sport, somewhere, litigation, I'm, but but beyond hopeful
indeed, some really good information as well, I being there, but beyond that. You know
the postal service is, you know, drowned. The postal service is quite popular threat. This country is popular red states and blue states popular in red districts and Budapest
In fact it maybe more popular in the rural areas and clear areas. So this is one of those
places were really calling you, member of Congress, I'm calling you
senator may make a real difference and are sometimes were
sometimes we're we're jaded about that, because you figure
ok, well, you're, not gonna move a Republican to oppose the trumpet menstruation boy. The postal service is more popular than Donald Trump. The postal service
is a lifeline for veterans. Getting medicine inside urge people to call other member Congress and make sure that they stand up for the postal service.
Margolis with democracy docket, thank you for joining us and keep up the good fight out their backs logic
for joining us today and
we'll see you tonight at a group thread,
we'll see you tomorrow, we re Thursday for another plod Friday for another pod Thursday night
for our pressure will be senior office because droop by
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Transcript generated on 2020-08-17.