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crooked, to customize your system in star protecting your home and family that simply save dotcom, flash cricket easier than a palm beach poet, wealth, Neponset, America, I'm John bearer on drama and Tommy detour on today's PA. Let's make another run. It passing a voting rights bill love it. I talked to doktor a she's jaw, the dean of Public Health. It Brown University about what the latest CDC guidance and scary covert headlines actually mean for you, and new analysis, but why were also angry points to Fox NEWS, as the culprit sometimes it's the person you must expect, but first some fun news

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I think it is in this area- are doing a lot. Jokes direct, I'm all rewriting that, like the old days I'll get to the news after a strategy session at the White House, Friday. Democrats in Congress are expected to unveil new versions of the for the people ACT and the John Loose Voting Rights ACT this week. The idea here is to scale back the original bill so that their focused, mostly on preventing voters, oppression, electoral subversion and partisan gerrymandering, which will get Joe Mansion on board And at least in Joe mansions, mind hopefully gets home Republicans onboard not holding our brought there we also keep getting reminders about why this is also important. Mother Jones is already Berman. Just what hold on a new analysis from the democratic data firm targets, smart that shows Republicans, can take back control of the house in twenty twenty two by drawing gerrymandered congressional districts in just four states that they already control joy.

Florida North Carolina in Texas and on their election subversion front. We just learned from notes that the Department of Justice officials release to Congress, but Donald Trump called acting attorney. General Jeffrey rose in a few days before the attack on the capital and told him quote say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the republican congressmen. That's great. That's a coup quote: I lots to unpack here. Let's start with the twin threats of joy, mentoring and elections, aversion and then work our way towards the solutions. Me. What does already Berman's? Please tell us about the size and scope of the republican advantage when it comes to redistricting, so I thought the best awkward in the army. Berman peace was from everybody's favorite pill. Pusher turn member of Congress, Doktor Ronnie Jackson,

said that a thought redistributing alone should get us the majority back. So Republicans get to draw a hundred and eighty seven congressional districts, total Democrats get to draw seventy five, the rescue drawn by commissions or states with divided government. According to our east peace, Republicans could pick up six to thirteen seats in the house. The reduced king in Georgia, Florida North Carolina in Texas alone, so in other words, the majority could be handed from the Democrats to the Republicans just because the maps get redrawn, not because any else chain, so we are staring down the barrel of a gun right now, I'll be the congressional majority, as they need five seats to flip. They might be to get five seats just of Florida forgiven another and every states. Well, yeah I mean that because our majority is so narrow. They probably won't do that. They will probably not over gerrymander in some of these places because

I have their famous for showing restraint. Well, know the reason: no, no, not because they care about not out of restraining out of politics, because you know what they can do, got over gerrymander. You can draw the maps and distribute Republicans just to delicately you get too greedy and then all of a sudden wave election could overcome the gerrymander. The problem is, our majority is so narrow that they don't have to do that. They can actually draw pretty strong republican seats in a lot of these states even though they ve lost the ability to gerrymander as exclude as extensively in places like Wisconsin, because we now have the governorship and a few other states. The

can do it in a way that is kind of insurmountable, even with a wave election. Even if we have a mid term in which people turn out as much as they did turn out twenty either the White House has been telling voting rights activists that they can out organise some of these voters. Suppression laws, which you know, there's a big debate over whether you can people are upset. The boy has the same that, understandably putting at all on activists and organizers, but like how much more difficult is it to out organise gerrymandering Tommy I so I I guess, something I kind of get the messaging goals here, which is we don't want to make it sound so dire. The voter suppression tactics so dire that Democrats get sad and give up right like they want people to stay motivated, but you just can't out organize a gerrymander. You can't out organ election subversion laws. They take the power away from voters in hand them to state legislatures, have they can overturn an election result budget

that's impossible, like when the problem gerrymandering is the further further. We go there. Computer software and other programs get more sophisticated and allow you to draw up just perfect maps for either side there, almost unbeatable, and organize your way. Out of that, and so I dont know if there's hope, never suppression laws, voter Idee laws or something associated with gerrymandering, not gerrymandering itself, but the suggestion that you can out organise gerrymandering is wrong, and I cannot and why that with land as almost insulting sounding, if you're, an activist who cares about this deeply yeah, I mean It's part of the reason also why I've been sort of annoy they must have a coverage about voter suppression, since the election has been focused on some of the voters, suppression, laws and not the fact that Republicans are about to gerrymander the shit out of the map for a decade because, like it, is horrific to, for example, you know, ban people from Dan volunteers from giving food water to people

waiting at an hour rely. Might that's awful right, but there are ways to get around that right. There are ways to make sure that people are. Voters are educated about the hurdles they have to jump over, to register, to vote and to make sure there not heard from rules like all this horrible with their ways to get her that David Shore Democratic data analysed, says in this mother Jones peace. If everyone voted the same way as in twenty twenty Republicans good, when the house, through redistricting alone, that's how hard is to organise a gerrymander any said. The ban on gerrymandering bits contained in this voting rights legislation is about five times important than the rest of the bill combined yeah and you can organise someone's house from ninety ten democratic district to a fifty five. Forty five but that does not know that we're gonna be there are going to move out of the district and I and I do think actually even It is absolutely true that we see this in in in Burma from Pennsylvania to Georgia.

You can organise and educate voters to overcome meetings, and there are knock on effects. When you tell when you tell people their voters threatened, you can sometimes instil people kind of real pressure and and desire to get out there and overcome these hurdles. That said, it is a frustrating message. I agree Tommy that it is about to sort of signalling like we think this fight may be really hard, if not impossible, and if we lose it, we still want to make sure people understand that we can win in the mid terms, but it does take the pressure off of Congress to say that we can overcome.

these things with organization when the message needs to be this is dire. This is an emergency we need to act. We need to act right now, yet we do not only want to give up hope. We're gonna stay. You involved in fighting all bus, but like day Waterman from the Cook political report drew up, a hypothetical map of wooden extreme gerrymander in Texas could look like, and you could end up with Republicans having twenty five seats compared to thirteen seats for Democrats, even though Biden lost the state by only five point, so that is how much you can distort what a saint actually looks like when it comes to its partisan breakdown compared to its congressional representation in that's, whites could a disaster and one other thing I just out about this Democrats, even if we controlled all state legislatures in can draw maps because Democrats tend to live in more democratic districts and Republicans living republican districts? It's actually harder for Democrats gerrymander to the extent that Republicans can do it because

crash live in these concentrated areas in a way that Republicans don't even these rural districts, in which Republicans kind of draw these maps to give themselves an advantage? There are more dynamic. That's their than there are in the heart of say, like Nancy policies, district or Adam Shifts, district or any array of seas. stricter any of a number of very concentrated democratic districts there. There is at one last thing on this. There is a timing issue. Here too, the census releases the data that allow states to draw the maps on August sixteenth, so the it's coming fast, but even if Congress passes a law banning gerrymandering sort of after that, the census data is released in some maps are drawn its. The ban would still sort of put the legal challenges to this on firmer ground. You know, John Roberts wrote himself in an opinion where he said. Gerrymandering was ok he's at the free.

This gave Congress the power to do something about partisan gerrymandering in the elections. Clause switch on Roberts himself is basically tempting Congress like it's on you, you wanna pass something it'll be fine, but if Europe, as anything we're not gonna, upholds any challenges, gerrymander any also gave our racially Graham. Well, that's the thing he also gave Republicans and instruction manual for how to get racist, Jerry Manders through by leaving that the part in which they are trying to sort by race. Out of the invitation and making a partisan cause that, according to John Roberts, is protected. Tell me when you get your thoughts on its trump story, which once again falls into the category of shocking, but not surprising. Philip bump at the Washington Post did point out that what's new about the story, is the note suggesting that Trump, an congressional Republicans may have been coordinating their efforts to overturn the election, which should we aspire, congress do with that information. I am very upset by the story. I found it not surprising, but shocking. As you say,

I just want to spend a minute talking about from telling the attorney general there he may not be following the internet. The way I do and therefore didn't under stand. I feel, like I've been stolen from him this. Important to harp on the streets where these getting isn't asian and how I think it was one week ago or two weeks ago we we talked about the conspiracy theory that somehow the aesthetic Italians had stolen the election or someone in the? U S embassy in Rome: it's only election, that's literally what he's talking about, and it is not just saying these things before. You know the crowd of Erin Use led by Charlie Kirk. He saying this stuff to the turning general of the United States that he appointed and that's scary, either the beer that is why wasn't following the internet is closely is drunk. I mean, if you know it, to be good at your job. You should know under what your boss is up to and written in a cigarette me conversation. Read the whole internationally that letter. What do we do about this, but we do have that's how they two things: one

I know we know but it is amazing how close we were to it all. Coming apart, we are very, very lucky. We are very lucky that even after bar was gone and and tried to find someone who is more loyal to him in this job. There were these places where there was resistance, where there did not have to be. There did not to be resistance in the Georgia secretary States officer did not to be resistance in a political in terms of political decision making in the OJ. The other reason this is we need to get to the bottom of what kind of conversations Trump was having with members of Congress, like my Brooks, like Jim Jordan, like Heaven, Mccarthy that needs to be part of the investigation that the committee is running right now, they need to treat those members as what they are, which is some combination of witnesses and perpetrators. Yeah. You there's seen in these over the weekend where there are some question about whether they would be calling members of Congress as witnesses or potentially subpoenaed

or how they might get that information from them or that US money. Rather, I hope there is no question about whether someone like Jim Jordan will be called to testify me. Did you see that's fumbling interview? He did some local journalists from Ohio where he was ass. If you talked to Trump on January six, if clear that guy's hiding something, yeah, really dogged Romeo. It's been like a couple interviews like those, whereas I am I talking to present all the time, Jim Jordan, always very careful with his. Were you don't like these guys these? These has only send the edges off in moments like these when their worried about what could happen if their under a bee you're. Absolutely right that this is why it's, the one six commission can't just be about the attack itself. It's about everything that led up to the attack include

trumps efforts all along the way, from the day after the election, through the insurrection to overturn the election itself and the members of Congress accordance with them, and I also think I was glad to see that as Democrats make this new push for like a revised voting rights legislation that they're gonna include language to prevent election subversion. I think that language really needs to be quite strong. I mean there's a question of how much can you do about states? Try to subvert the election republican officials and state on the federal level that I think they need to amend the electoral act of eighteen, eighty, seven, so that you need like two slash three of both houses of Congress to send the electors back to the states. That way, if it's two slash three, it's less likely to be partisan in nature, like this idea that now whoever controls Congress can reject the present. Whichever party control, can just reject the result of a presidential election is fucking absurd. Yet I should never have been a law. The m I believe there is there is this question like when Trump said, to rose in.

Leave it up to me in the Congress men. What did he mean right? How cow concrete, where the conversations he had with members of congress- and I think that's really really important except that in the end he did. I want to know how much communication was. I want to know how much coordination there was, but I think one of the lessons of January six is If there was none, they coordinated on television, the coordinated on Twitter on the internet on the internet, trumps internet, mate and they knew what they had to do. They didn't need the same. The member of Congress the same amount of instruction as the people on the National mall. They knew what Trump wanted them to do, that's all that really mattered, and so like the fact that he was income, season with them is important, but ultimately what we are

Jane is a threat that is basically what we know is that of Republicans have both houses of Congress. The of the ability to actually have a presidential election is completely in line with the path forward on protecting voting rights and democracy. On Sunday, Joe Mansion told Jake Tapir that, while he's optimistic about coming up with a compromise on voting rights, he still doesn't for the filibuster carve out to pass it here. The club can't imagine the car back cuz. I was here in twenty thirteen that was called the car about we'll just going to do. Then. He cabinet for the and then it went into to do the judges who lifetime appointments for circuit district. Maybe I'm gonna do Supreme we're, but they didn't have time to democratic control. Twenty seventeen Miss MC Losing control comes right back in and guess what car about worked, really carving up pretty bad Then you get the Supreme Court. Ok, so there's stopping it and we don't put this place back in order you get rid of. Lester, which makes us work together, and I said this the whole

then brilliancy of are of our founding fathers. Was this one what did they give to senators to Rhode, Island and Delaware? The time they reform in this great nation of hours when they told New York Pennsylvania and oh hi a yearning to two? There was basic: to make us work together so that the biggest it's one overrun? The little states is a minority participation killing us. you kill it when they had to say about that. Clip is like Actually that is an accurate history of what happened in the past several years to filibuster. It does seem as though that is where he started. Earning history, any zero knowledge of anything that came with more and that first vote to change, fell by strolls love it one of the options here like what white. Why do you think Democrats are going through all the trouble of introducing new legislation and compromise legislation, etc, etc, if bats Joe mansions position? Still, I think that's. The only option right we have to we have to face

till we may get. We have to hope that there's some chance that either either by some miracle- and I think this is all but impossible Joe and finds nine other senators during LISA Mc Caskey and doing what Republicans, as he has mentioned correctly points out, were willing to do only you know. Thirteen or fourteen years ago witches uphold the fucking Voting Rights ACT. Mention that happen, a view that it was something like ninety eight to nothing ass when they last voted on the or at some point you mentioned, will recognise the fact that he will answers on question. Why has this changed? Well, because one of the two parties has turned against democracy and at every turn in our history, when it became time to defend the right to vote, the equal citizenship of every person in this country is a part indecision has one part, as one party knew they would lose because of it, and so he will eat under recognise that or he's over. Why don't you say that another examined and that uses animals remarks, but he, but he always finds you words now Jake's question, which is totally very question. Can you imagine doing it now? I can't imagine doing, even if he can in his beautiful thing,

tat. Stick imagination conjure an image of him passing of voting rights bill with fifty votes. He can't say that right now anyway, because he has this theory that he can get these votes. We have to just hope that What are you saying now and he will allow the circumstances of Republicans blocking the bill to lead him to? May be passing the future, barring that I don't know what else yours. To do so, we have to just go through the motions and try to pass. It didn't tell me what's going on in that big beautiful houseboats eyes, brain of his, I wonder who wrote that that carved out carved up quip and if they got a big old pat on the back after they came up with it I bet somebody that my only hope Imagine is that he's just not going to change his answer until he does unlike in some ways, that's the smartest path for him just to just hold out you eat. When you decide to flip floppy fluff up and you do it until you're ready, you don't do it to love it. When earlier Jamal Buoy had a great piece in the New York Times about how the

on voting rights is partisan. So no one should be surprised that the responses partisan as well, the fourteenth amendment with equal protection clause pass on the party line vote the fifteenth amendment that prohibits denying the rights of others Race pass on the party line vote. Yes, these civil rights bills in the sixties whereby partisan, but the parties hadn't divided, like they are today. Some sort of apples and oranges comparison associates a very frustrated kind of half assed. Look it history by our friend Mr Mansion as love. It's out it doesn't started twenty thirteen it back a lot further. Also, I dont know if I mention this person before this is wrong. Within Europe that I love Jane Mare. She wrote a book and I ever brought this up on the shore, shit amazing peace. Today and then I got all that money is about all the big dark money group get their leading the fight. These voting restrictions, The heritage foundation is Alec, its Leonard LEO the Federalist society. It's a bunch of weird bill

in areas. You ve never heard of the Linden Harry Bradley Foundation that these, like reaction nests, you now so weird racist old white people that funded Charles Murray, the author of the bell, curves scholarship. So it's all. These are the usual big muddied interests groups pushing these voter suppression bills. I forgot your question John. I just got caught up in the carved out carving out. No, no, no. I was just waiting for you to go from the Jane my reference to rip Pearlstine book reference. I don't know if you can work those while regularly. I'm still working through that one I jumped over to the Facebook book, which is very important. Quite good. That's good! That's good! Reader is a router bear. The reader generator guys of hundreds and just a small town boy, from LOS Angeles in broken right now, such as me in my book. Can Atomic company Tommy's lion in your inner he's in the big apple, ok, there's nothing to say they eat a vague, already gone into it.

Doing the show from here is on board probably luxurious yet three extra hours depressing morning. I didn't know what to do with myself I'm, gonna be observers on rooms or does the EAST coast crooked media life is pretty fucking. Great credible is ok, I'm San we were able to John you're cool too But Madam bump, I've been in LOS Angeles for over a year since five, so there's a few few other things on this in terms of the path for it. I do think level like you said you know faded to make. It is the strategy here. I was somewhat hopeful reading a quote from Amy closure that she said in a press conference last Sweden, whom she said. I think if we were just going to say nope, we can't do this because of Senate rules. We wouldn't keep going yet, which seem too, This suggests that there is some Dinah strategy, although I don't wanna, I don't guess about any kind of strategy among the Democrats could have been disappointed before, but I'm hoping it. With some strange behind the scenes. Angers kings had something similar to bang. With things that you say to me like I don't if this fails, I dont know what happens after that right. So the other option

I could go shopping subordinate to go you. Of course, I found it out. Gus Gus King I am to go out to figure out what's going on within the allotted time, and the Democrats there is, there is a possibility that some of these provisions could end In the reconciliation build our gimme a fuckin break, I know right now and I like it on the new like. I believe this is gonna happen. So there he's gonna tax credits to deny the right to vote. I'm trying to explain to our listeners without opening a horse shit, you put it. You could say that states get money for to administer elections only if they meet the following standards. You must have automatic voter registration. You must not birds the roles and Balboa, so would that fly through reconciliation? We don't know, would some states better? Maybe republican states opt out and decide to not take the cash like they have done with men expansion for the last ten years yet problem. That is, I believe, these governors, Ricky reclaims republican states, would decide

to let huge portions of their population go without health care to make a point that they didn't Brok avail. Are you still requires later, you think they're gonna? Do they re like this is against our interests, but we want that money to administer free and fair elections and that their concern very highly then there's a question like: is there a car? Is it not a carve out, but are we going back to some kind of filibuster reform would mention Cerchi forty one republican centres have to be on the floor, the entire time in order to filibuster this bill and then hoping that you know some of the odes like Chuck crossly finally get tired and have to leave and go to bed That's that's the other opium. The idea that China should better, but not the prostate, get out that floor. Yet some of these guys have to pee every thirty. Forty minutes, that's our whole. I do, but I do think that, like that leave german gin, you know he's he has expressed in the past openness to those kinds of reforms. A lot of this is a man tat. If you could do something that he can say is not a carved out, it can

fit with what he said to Jake Tapir there a lot of place a lot of places. This can go that are hopeful that any do not allow a hand here we are. We are because these are video saint. We are because, because Cow Cunningham loves to and we can't, when a seat in Maine we're stuck with the idiosyncratic decision begging of two people that are not acting in the best interests of this country, and I dont know what that's that's the reality look brewing Kaliko him, but I think you sort of glossed over the big fuck up and me there now now ratified one that state by a lot yet Sir Gideon, ok we're gonna make a male homer. gotta jungles remain for a week and he's offending that, though the family like and running in the second district cow, Cunningham, Screwed, a mistress sense, getting kind of good all of us. I got that. I agree with her grief. You guys that I dont think that this

their voting rights legislation into reconciliation plan makes a ton of sense for a thousand years our line. I do think it's fair to say that you could argue that The initial for the people ACT was a little too broad. I want public financing of campaigns to, but that wasn't the acute Brett that we are all facing right now, think even Amy Club, which are was critical of how expansive before the people ACT was so hoping that she is working with this group of lawmakers includes mansion, they're working on a a narrow down. Bilbil convince him to do something that gets us pass to filibuster actually get a vote on it. I mean my holding my breath no, but it is excellent, and I think, if you really critic the Biden White House. This is the way place. I do think they have not been fully engaged and I'm- exactly sure what they should be doing, but everyone there talk to them about this artificial comes away feeling like this isn't the priority, which it should be, especially considering how much of his ability to get reelected lies with the need to hold on to the house by preventing this partisan gerrymandering. So I do hope that there is

a renewed push on voting rights once the bill for the babe or whatever how John is calling at these days. It is through Congress, I'm just in very excited about infrastructure D. Arnault. Your problem is look. I think I will say that I do, God you get to Brooklyn Berlin Zepplin impractical, at the hotel or a fuckin train fairy had greatly. As applying John. I am for any very creative outside the box solutions here. You know if they can, for you got something in reconciliation, great I'm doubtful, but I'm for This is it. This is a myth that the trillion dollar coin moment here a separate resolution, and I would urge member the dilemma that was our throwback Lucian yell. It's what can do whatever to get this done when we come back, I love it. I will talk to doktor ass. She saw the dean of Public Health, the Brown university. Above all, latest pandemic news pot.

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Last week the CDC issued new guidance recommending that everyone, even vaccinated Americans, wear masks and indoor public settings. If you live in a community with substantial or high covert transmission, what prompted the shift was CDC data that suggest the small percentage of vaccinated people who do get infected with covert can, in rare instances, transmit the virus to others. But if you're anything like us, you may have found both the CDC communication on this issue and the sub went media coverage, confusing and or terrifying here to clear. All of this up for us and more is someone who's been one of the most brilliant saint calming voices throughout the pandemic. The dean of Brown universities, schools, public health, Doktor, she's, Jha, Doktor John welcome to the plot, a thank you so much for being here, so I feel it. What was missing from last week, CDC announcement was clear information that could help people, especially vaccinated people, reassess the risk to themselves and their fate.

ways of getting really sick from the delta variant. So we are sitting here in a county with high transmission and allay were wearing masks and indoor public settings. But how should I think about other activities? I have an on vaccinated one year old at home. We spent a lot of time with my parents were over six five is outdoor, dining, still, ok, outdoor gatherings indoor gatherings were everyone's vaccinated. What do you think, Yet it is confusing. You know, and there is a lot happening here. So let's break down kind of what we know and what we don't know. What we have learned recently which is not surprising, as we never thought these vaccines around two percent is at breakthrough. Infections happen. Sometimes you can have a few can be fully vaccinating. You have a breakthrough. Infection and then the other thing we have learned, which actually we knew even from that number Yankees outbreak, the at the club how's, your examining key players at you know, vaccinated people can spread it to others

So that's not a huge surprise. I think, fundamentally, what people need understand is breakthrough. Infections are rare and forward transmission. That is, if you have a breakthrough infection even given to some as is also pretty uncommon, and the most important piece of all of this is when it happened People do really well, they have a kind of a miserable cold. They can be pretty miserable for a few days, but they get better very, very, very rarely do people end up getting hospitalized or dying from any of this, so If you have that, as your mental model, issues are helping you some decisions and by the way, the other thing about Delta virus a variant is, it is a bad version of the virus, but it still the same virus. So does the same stuff. So out worse still really really safe like I wouldn't. Worry about outdoor dining. I would not worry about getting together outdoors with large numbers of people, maybe the suit. pack. Outdoor concert might get along we are a little uncomfortable, maybe a poetic,

rally where no one's wearing a mask, maybe a little tight but other mad outdoor stuff is, I think, pretty safe and the indoor stuff you the way I thought about it. If you're in a room full of all vaccinated people, and really you very, very low risk of anybody passing it on the last part of this is about assessing risk. If you're with a phrase, the elder and you ve been out partying and you ve been exposed to a lot of non vaccinated. People might be reasonable to put on a mask because the risk of a breakthrough infection for that prevail. Elder could be really quite substantial. kids, thankfully dont get sick very much and again I want to minimize covered in kids. There's been a lot of minimizing of that, but I have a nine year old was not vaccinated that isn't fundamentally alter behavior. I don't. I don't do particularly high risk things, but I also don't worry about it

simply about him getting cold. It is unlikely and if he does, your probably do just fine but makes no sense that one more question on transmission Israel's public health chief was on face donation Sunday and she said that their data shows. Eighty percent of vaccinated individuals who do become infected do not transmit the virus to any one else. They said ten percent transmitted to one person in less than ten percent transmitted from more than one person. It sounds a lot less dire then the coverage around the CDC announcement like to that makes sense to you that data it does. It does and if you think about it, it clinically and biologically makes sense, because if you are unlucky enough to have a breakthrough infection, you still have an immune system that very rapidly clearest a virus. That means you are contagious for a very short period of time and you're, not that contagious so it makes sense that some people you may get unlucky and have and begin catch him in the contagious bazin. They may pass it on to one person, but most people who a breakthrough in factories

not going to spread it. This is why vaccinated people are not driving this surge. This we were seeing in America is all about the on vaccinated and the vaccinated are unfortunate bystanders to this. So let's talk about how that the disconnect between what the CDC has been saying and what the kind of news coverage has look like in the CDC presentation that led to the post, one of their concerns was that break your cases would cause people too. Competence in the vaccine prestige as their word, the public we convinced the vaccine is no longer working or that boosters would be needed. Important uptake communications describing breakthrough cases as rare or a small percentage of case, This was the CNN lead of be room on that presentation. The delta of ours variant surging across the United States, appears to cause more severe illness and spread as easily as chicken pox. The document outlined, unpublished data that shows fully vaccinated people might spread the delta variant at the same rate as unfair. needed people. You know the CDC has been communicating.

Via the media for the entirety of this pandemic. It still feels as though there is a disconnect between what they wish the coverage look like and what coverage of their of their communications ends up actually being for ordinary people trying to keep up with this. What do you think is gone wrong and how the city, he communicates and what would you like to see them do differently, yeah and there a couple of things we first of all, I think the CDC has largely been right on the science, and even here there were largely right. I think Then there was one error in this instance, and this has come up a bunch is that they didn't leave the data, along with their proclamations on early in the week they said we are making. Change because we are aware of data, but that data then leak out. Two days later, he said I shouldn't be leading like ones you make. The proclamation put the date out there. I this is not a national security secret like just and people and then basically explain

the data people. So they understand when data leaks, there's always a sensible there's something more serious or sinister, or bad, going on that I had a week at that kind of separating really does need to stop. One aspect of this it was surprising, is that we did learn that one data point that led to the updated mass guidance was the breakthrough cases in province. Town I happen to have been there. I was protected because I refused to party and go out because I was still reeling a most. Lay off from the last fourteen months. That was my vaccine being a fuckin loser, but but we use but it seems to me that, like there protection you your whole life, is it never gonna call me Doctor B, but it was, it was surprise it to me that that, like that, this incredible stress test of the vaccine led to these. This

date in a broader way when to me this was a case of the vaccine holding up real well under like a true live fire exercise, real surprised that the province town cases where work were critical. Part of this update, I was, I did not think there was anything from the province down update that surprised me in a negative way, and let me explain to parts of its first of all the being a headline number. All these city values were the same for the vaccinated and the unbalanced needed. By the way we knew that from the Singapore outbreak as well, so that there was an break em on vaccinated and back to the people in Singapore at the airport. About a month ago, I said so that that wasn't a huge surprised and the second is, I keep trying to mount remind people We cannot in fact be imagined this scene July. Fourth, partying impede gown if nobody had been vaccinated,

You know we would have seen tens of thousands of people infected, hundreds and hundreds of people, the hospital, probably many people on ventilators and eventually die, and then a local outbreak that would have become regional outbreak right. This is now a kind of Sturgis Rally, and this wasn't right as big as a start Israeli, but it's kind of these things trigger

these massive regional outbreaks did not happen. Now it was, it was not great bunch. People got infected, a few people end up getting hospitalized, thankfully no one has died and then it sort of stopped, because that's what back scenes do so you ve touched on this a bit about like the contagious of breakthrough cases in back, say people. One thing you said is that it may take place, but it might be shorter because there is their immune systems are geared up which actually not something that has been kind of clearly communicated by the CDC either. This line from the Times coverage of what the CDC has been putting out to be a kind of capture to capture the confusion in some of the coverage, doktor doktor will and ski the director of the agency, acknowledging Tuesday that vaccinated people with so called breakthrough. Infections of the delta variant carry just as much virus in the nose and throat as unaccented people and may spread it just as readily, if less us, often just as readily. If less often what

what does that mean like what? What what does it mean? What what are? What are they saying here? Yeah, I think that's a first. I don't think that's consistent with the signs. I dont think whether the two problems here, one is the city values that everybody super excited by their close cycle threshold values by the way, this isn't like a term for a halt to the test by the big picture bottom line on these city values. Lcd valleys are now perfectly correlated with contagious. Nobody cares what cd about its rejection data since the second It's a snapshot in time. there is no reason to believe that people work who are have a breakthrough infection and are vaccinated icons read the virus as easily as on vaccine people. I just think that's inconsistent with the data. I don't know doktor once heap. She by the way is her, so she knows this. I dont have she misspoke earth. It was Miss characterized, but this has been a consistent being over.

Last week. This idea that somehow vaccinated people out there spread of the virus all around and they are fuelling the search they really art. That's now what's going on, but are you send it all that Israel in the UK and Germany have all decided to offer booster shots to the elderly and amino compromised, while our health officials are still debating the issue here, like wine should vaccinated Americans who are over sixty five or amino compromise, start to worry about their immunity potentially turning now? The data from Israel suggests that, after about six months, there is awaiting us of the animal. things which may lead to more breakthrough infections I've been worried and you know worldly I've been worried. I've been worried by nursing homes and Congress, your settings and, if you think about it, those were the folks who got vaccine. like December and Jane. So there are hidden that six month might Martin

yeah, and you also know that forty some odd presented mercy, homeworkers, aren't even vaccinated at all, so we're gonna start seeing outbreaks in nursing homes, and the SBA has data on whether a third shot could be helpful. I suspect it is not it be really great if this after would make it a termination of that. Do you think that's gonna happen soon, because I guessed what we're like you said we're almost six month mark for December and January folks, yeah yeah. I bet it should happen sooner. There's been a little bit of like. I think a lot of us have been can scratching our heads I, the FDA has moved as slowly as it has on. So many of these things are, after I have received, buys or data on a third shot. Booster a while back and they should make the determination a bunch of other countries have done it and be really helpful for the ethnic away in a bunch of people in a layer, Putnam moustaches in hoeing, gettin gettin, Third Shasta illicitly. When did you buy that? Well, this is actually part of the problem,

right! Is it if you, if the FDA says not organ, take our time, guess what and you people gonna, go on doing anyway and we're gonna go out and do it are better educated, high information, high sort of social capital and guess what I can do the frail, elderly and nursing homes, the poorer people, so the best way to create more inequities. History have government that's not super, responsive and an agency does not super responsive to the data so soon scary, headlines: here's a fun one from CNN over the weekend, you scientists believe it is almost certain a corona virus variant will emerge that beats current vaccines. What is your reaction to that, and do you think we'll be able to update our vaccines quickly enough? If, if that happens, if such a variant emerges, efforts on deeply sceptical of bad ever happening. These vaccines are really extraordinary in kind of the breast of response that they gave right whipped. The bacteria- now been tested against all set a different, bearings and they're holding up largely just fine,

I guess it's theoretically possible and I dont lose a lot of people read. But let's say that, like it happens because a lot We then a lot o curve walls in this man. So, let's say it happens, tat we ve got both Madonna Pfizer by answering that are very capable of turning around a new vaccine within weeks and then the question for the FDA. We will be how today test it and will require a new kind of long term. times. Are they gonna be authorize? It pretty quickly reach the Military support can be much slower, but the silence on this can keep up with the virus pretty quickly. So far less question on this. Over the last week, I've seen a bunch of scientists and public health experts.

quoted as saying that you know Kurt immunity isn't happening, covered will become endemic will basically have to learn to live with it for years to come. I know, that's not actually a scary as it sounds, but what is learning to live with Cove it as an endemic disease, look like from a policy and public health perspective, yeah the great question and in the two ways of learning to live with that right is it? Is that duty managed to get pretty high levels of vaccination and then learn to live with it, where we have a few occasional gonna breakthroughs in and some people occasionally get sick, but we developed and good antivirals and nobody people generally don't die or get particularly said and then we can go about our lives as like an annoyance or do we have a learn to live with it, where twenty five thirty percent population remains and vaccinated? We see reasonably large outbreaks, still happening among beyond vaccinated.

spills over the year that the first version like life, basically return to a normal things, are pretty good The economy is coming along restaurants or for people generally. not worry right. In the second version, you have Occasionally, cities having to put in mass man you have, places having to shut down. You have like he's gonna get honor measures and public of counter measures in the afternoon concept. we being deployed locally in small areas, hospitals occasion fill up. We have to respond to that that trying to think could go on for years if we don't get too like eighty five, ninety percent of people vaccinate occur, but is there a good morning doktor? She straw. Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate you coming us, and hopefully everyone else down as great numbers is appreciated. I'm sorry, I am I'm sorry curse It presents a fresh you're talking about very serious person and I lowered the hand I die,

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other Joneses Kevin drummed at a fairly detailed analysis of why we become so politically polarized since the turn of the century, and he considers a few popular theories, our belief in conspiracy theories, our use of social media and our economic and social conditions. But ultimately he concludes that Americans. Belief in conspiracy theories has remained steady almost since our founding that our current polarization predates are increased use of social media and that people are about a satisfied with their jobs in their lives. They have been in the past according to poles. What's changed is Americans, distrust of institutions and anger towards government, and that began just a few years after the launch of the most influential source of propaganda that country ever know. It turns out that the covert vaccines, those wonder drugs that were absolutely perfect- that were more impressive than the moon landing. The drugs you were not allowed to question in any way, don't actually work in the way they told us. And now you want to mask us, because you clear

failed in your efforts to get us back sedated, because the totalitarian impulse within who is so strong, nothing makes sense, I didn't take long covered hypocrite Nancy, pillows, the already breaking your new mask rules looking slamming the speaker for what they call a massive abuse of power and the house. If this were a curve. Tucker. The way the riots of last summer were covered. It would be Describe is mostly peaceful. Couldn't wait, extend it was full of picture you shown of people who were in the capital billing milling around the guy walkin around the Senate Chamber with horns, I'm so what most of them were peaceful surprise. Its Fox news so Drum acknowledges that this is not exactly a surprising or exciting conclusion, but that, while social median conspiracy theories certainly act as few on the fire, its Fox NEWS that that the country ablaze, he writes lover what he may get this theory and his reasoning behind it. I think it's very soon.

I would say, I read the peace and I shared it, and what I actually want is that I think, is meagre region did, although you need to do you read the pc shared it Robin I did my part, but what I do know that treaty what it, what it actually does call for, though, as I think people who are more versed in the data that he is using to justify ruling out to meet other causes to kind of pushed back on it where they can, because it did feel but Kevin Dramas when you view has put all of his articles have headlines like Fox NEWS, nor Volleyball Fox NEWS killed. My dog like that sort of that is its is beat, and it's a and it's a great beaten he's very smart. But I do think that, like it's hard to know what the compound effects of of of social media plus rightwing, this information could be. Another point actually is just that, sometimes about misinformation and then just about tone and

and her of coverage and how people communicate with each other on on social media. I also think there are trends that may be preceded the changes in our politics that took place in two thousand, but they kind of concluded over these twenty years, one of them being the ideological shifting that led to a kind of less heterodox views amongst Democrats and Republicans some of the geographic sorting that we ve been seeing. So I think it's a really smart point. I think that the keep take away those regardless of whether he's under emphasising other causes. To make a point is, I think, sometimes we like to talk about what's new, when the underlying causes are so boring. Why Connor Lanman at AOC. Well, it could be because she's taken a position on the phone, the police or could be because Fox NEWS is making everything worse like. Why are we talking about vaccine misinformation and vaccine hesitancy? Well, it could be because of all these other ants there causes, or it could be because Fox news making everything worse and sometime boring to talk about the same thing over and over again, but we should concentrate on it, because we actually just need to figure out what the fuck do about it. Tommy. What you think

There is a very interesting piece and he's hard to point out one thing and say that the reason we are more polarized but alive the pieces of the story really rang through to me. He talked about how Fox NEWS on single handedly manufactured the hysteria over critical re SIRI. Anyone who works the Obama administration would not be surprised by that. We watched them, manufacture, controversies about the war on Christmas death panels, ten suits Benghazi. The election lie the vaccine coverage. Now what's changed, I think, is the mainstream media at the time used to make the Obama Administration treat Fox as real and credible and non partisan or or like they were fair and balanced or had Farren bounds components. Now I think that that lie has been put to rest. A little bit.

Kevin Red who's, the former Prime Minister roster area from the Labour Party, has made similar observations about how the Murdoch Empire has distorted politics in Australia, because it is just relentlessly opposed any sir progressive economic policy. It pushes climate denial. You ve also seen Murdoch outlets, fuck up politics in the UK they fall four breaks it and then you look at Canada where Murdoch hasn't gotten into the market and their political process and debates are not nearly as broken. I do think that Kevin's peace probably underestimate what we discussed in this first topic, which is how gerrymandering is changed. Political incentive structures in this country and if you had a Fox news driving the Republican Party to the far right, but fifty fifty districts. It would be disastrous for the Republican Party because America, we have a unique thing which is party primaries and then party elections that are also popular elections are parties, don't shoot

the person in the primary right. We will vote for them twice. So if you are just getting far right, candidates at of republican primary sank, the fox they would get trounced in a general election, but we had gerrymander districts. Are you don't You know that the challenge of what to do about it is in recent years Fox has been supplemented. The right wing islets? And we talked about a lot? The federalist Bright Bart. You know, there's social media things sites. parlor, there's news MAX Zaza Facebook, a heel he talks, Social media is exacerbating the problem, but sort of dismisses it do you think the problem with Facebook isn't just sharing Tucker Crossing clips on Facebook. The problem is also that like you and on an anti vaccine groups, were able to organise and reach a critical mass on Facebook and then get covered by Fox, or this vicious death spiral happening so like that, at the end of the day, foxes core product is like white grievance and fear. I will never forget twelve and two thousand eight, the foxes

found this one random. Member of the new black Panther Party, just standing outside of appalling location in Philadelphia, indeed roadblock coverage of this guy all day long. They are trying to scare white voters out of voting for Obama, and

That kind of tells you all. You need to know about the night when the chips are down. That's what they focus on. That's beside that they're on and that's what they're their goal is just to scare these old white voters out of progressive politics. I totally agree that it's an excellent analysis that does minimize a bit, in my view, the role of social media, and I always think about the story that Dan tells about the IRS scandal in twenty thirteen, and when that first happened, you know everyone at the White House was like okay, it's another fox driven thing. Right Fox only reaches a couple million people, and so it's probably an inside Dc Fox thing. That's not going to go anywhere and people in most of the country are going to give a shit about this. And then we did a bunch of focus groups in Ohio, and everyone was talking about the IRS scandal and the difference.

Was Facebook and that their hadn't been Facebook or Facebook hadn't really taken off in some of these past scandals, and so I think that you know you can't underestimate enough. Or do you know you, you can't minimize the role of social media, especially Facebook, in giving Fox just a new weapon to spread all of their lives and bullshitting conspiracy theories, and I think Fox news. You know they sort of set the tone and they they sort of Dr Alot of this bullshit, but without Facebook, without social media. I don't think you have the reach that you have today. I think that you would have people is angry as you do too yeah. I do think it is hard. Some of this. You can look for it in data, but that, though, I think that in this peace, or maybe it's another piece where it talks about how everyone just kind of we know, the people in our lives are angrier. We know we see it in our lives. We see it in our families, we see in our communities. We see it on television seed everywhere. Honey

find that in the data, how do you? How do you source that point too? What caused it were not doing a double bind experiment with in America that doesn't have Fox news, but does have social media, so I do think these things are ultimately hard to tease out, but I do think what I took away from the peace is: let's not take our eyes off of the challenge. Fox news is, regardless of these other causes one of the greatest threats to this country in its future. It is every single day and I think sometimes it is discouraging, because we don't know to do, but I do think we need to be more explicit in in saying it, and then I do think we need a conversation that the kind of boycotts that work targeted boycotts. We should look at the moment when foxes changed course and what cause them to change course. Sometimes it's boycott, sometimes other forms of public pressure. I think we need to be more proactive and more deliberate and more concerted and our attention

the threat foxes Ba. When you say we, I totally agree with us, like. I think that, like you pointed out, Tommy reporters have gotten better about this mainstream reporters out at at calling Fox out and being and confident enough to say that foxes propaganda outlet they never used to be then it sort of sir, where some of the media reported would say it. He Blake Brien's Delta, again ass. If I d and now it's gone to more mainstream reporters, you see some folks on CNN calling them out regularly. So that's good, but I still think like reporter should not treat Fox reporters and people work at Fox as their colleagues. They should not show them like they that Fox exist, to destroy the mainstream media and to undermine thus in the mainstream media and reporters all, should recognise this and if they and if they do recognize it, they should say it publicly. I also think progressive donors right, like you know I take the seventy Valencia about this in terms of latino vote a couple episodes ago, but she pointed out that story that you know progressive donors

liberal donors dropped fourteen million dollars in self Lord. In the last week of the election wall, Republicans bought a radio station in South Florida for three hundred fifty thousand dollars. They turned into a right wing radio station. So what bang for your back there than just dump and money on digital ads in the last week of withdrawal action, one other one, other distinction. I think that we should stop pretending. Matters is the distinction between their quote news, end quote side and their opinion side. how much do you make that point? It is obscene. It is obscene if you had a fire department where six of the fire fighters put out fires and three of them set fire You wouldn't be, like. I dont, think we're giving enough credit to the ones on the truck that are helping. Maybe, like that's a terrible Fuckin fire department shut them down

let them down, don't call them drum, makes the point in the peace that that's actually one of the big reasons, foxes so influential because he's as part of the answer probably lies in the fact that Fox NEWS is cloaked in the trappings of news and that's one reason: you get sixty five percent of Republicans and independence, saying that they trust Fox. More than any other news outlets right, it's not just Tucker and handed, even though their the worst offenders and say that, where shit, it's that they see other news that supposed to be non partisan, fair and balanced, and people fuckin by it no! No one knows we are the only ones who know there's a distinction. It's a bunch of white guys in ties at desks. Reading news, enlightened, there's, no like the car on the goes up when you go from news to the opinion side Well, you'll get me to challenge you love it. If you love, it shows just get better for three hours at second,

like an interns. What to do? I like I am. I give a lot accredited groups accepting giants that have gotten advertisers to stop advertising. I Tucker Karlsson when he does or says races things. I agree that strategic boycotts, our good there's an effort called on Fox, my cable box, that is trying to get providers to drop Fox news from well packages, but based basely, just a letter writing campaign in that, and that's a broader challenge, because Fox makes most of its money by charging cable news subscribers, like all of

whether we watch fox or not. So you know, my hope is that long term that their revenues will be hurt by cord cutting, but I think that my own self interest view here is that progressives need to create our own progressive media fight fire with fire does not be racist. Lying Naan tastic be a different, flavor and tone than fox, but like we need to make a counter arguments, I don't think that these right wing outlets are going anywhere. If you didn't, in fact, I think they are growing it full of rating, because right wing donors see them as political weapons to help them get. You no regulations stripped away and tax cuts and it's an investment for that minutes. Pay them handsomely overtime,

Now we always want more competition, hair commedia, where we welcome new opportunities. I guess the I know, but I do think actually like this points to Another- is imagery. That's part of this and actually away in which, like the yawning chasm where we had these super rich people with unlimited funds like influences our politics and other ways, republican money, support, right wing, media, and you know rights really powerfully about the never heard about the the if you're, gonna stadium, air. Never then judge in their mother tongue in cheek was paying attention, but I like Jamie but the but the butter, did you get the lad like liberal money like the grass roots gets behind some, unlike Bernie the further you got, the money ladder you go, the more moderate become the quote: unquote, democratic, like backers and so like you just don't have the same thing. There is no cope brother, you talked of chalk about, does Soros as an exception that proves that

but they look more like Bloomberg. You know like looking for a moderate, a centre left or even a centre option and that that asymmetry isn't going anywhere in their spending billions of dollars on like d polarization efforts, yeah yeah, let's bring more people together, conferences of vitamins voice. That is enough anyway, so yeah we have to use a fox is bad. In conclusion, vaccines is bad. That's where you come here for her takes like that. I do they look. It's is valuable to see a day They drive in case made like Kevin dead and in that peace bees. I do think look A lot of very serious, very smart good reporters would beat their chests. yellow the Obama administration. Yet when we didn't include Fox news in some round rob- set of interviews with the networks and they made us treat them like they were on the level and they were not, and that made the reporters who did that part of the problem and like pieces like this, I think help make the counter argument.

and one last thing I'd say too is one way you can do tat. You can do. This in your own life, as I do think, like a lot of political conversations are a lot of like what happened. What happened to our countries? What led to this is kind of rhetorical, big sweeping things just answer like ashes foxes I know these are complicated things just made a bunch of people really angry. I hate our institutions and our government that we should write em. Now we can move on to others. Are it? That's all over today. Thank you to doktor she's job for joining us in coming as all down. Thank you, Tommy for joining us from Brooklyn you're. Welcome. Any just this much core Tommy, as I promised a v W bus following Jane Merrick on tour, I I I put on my headphones Justin I'm too here love it telling the doktor about how his lack of social life saved him from the delta variant so that it does a fund treat for me was the highlight of the pod today. Slits reality

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