Mueller impanels a grand jury to investigate Trump, more Republicans start to challenge the President, and Democrats continue to debate their own way forward. Then Lovett interviews Joshua Green about his new Steve Bannon book, and Pod Save the People’s DeRay Mckesson joins to talk about the opioid crisis.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The present exports are pod. Save America is blueprint. Blueprints mission is to make a credible home cooking accessible to everyone. Blueprint achieved this by supporting a more sustainable food,
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I welcome the pod, save America, I'm John fairer. I'm John love it time later on today show love. It will interview Bloomberg business weeks, Joshua Green author of the new book, Devils Bargain Steventon, Donald Trump and storming of the presidency. In a one third
happened, it's happened. It was a great conversation actually went on real long red went on well this one
you have an eye opener book interest and Marina Book about banning loss, but I ain't a great book and it was a fastening opposition cool terms.
So bordering the whole thing. I'm going to day one of his liking out as a shitty conversation faster or even their theirs. They would prefer. You read a senator Cortez Massa he's like it's gonna, be a high look. It was a fine conversation that was happily overheads. You can always improve. Our little matter will be talking to the host of cricket media's pod. Save the people directly casts a right, but first it's August
slow news until there is horrendous news, which is little happy at every August scare, about to hear the name of a mountain you didn't know about something going to go wrong. What is this mountain gigantic nyamagana? It says that every August, some like there's the bp thing or theirs of hurried, Ain or something unexpected like the world is gonna comes castile trump and I, for one thing, he's up right. Ok, let's begin with what I think is the most consequential political development. Last week, the Wall Street Journal.
Report that Special Council Robert Mahler, has an paneled a grand jury to investigate whether the President of the United States and or his associates broke. The law in connection with Russia's interference
when he sixty election. Rubber Mahler is not fucking around now.
Mars gonna usage rights. I've read what I thought you were doing at the time. Are you going to say something funny, but you didn't. You said the man quite serious. You meant it. I was straight news. Job yeah, well, look grandeurs, they're serious business, but I didn't
Another new Gingrich already doesn't trust him. That's areas,
to start with. The third countries like, I think. A lot of new legal observers have
This is going to happen along it. Doesn't
Sally mean, there's a crime Grinch or use all the time to investigate things, but it provides an important mechanism to bring in a whole bunch of wit
his interview them in a in it
that where lying is a very big problem for them, we get to check the record of all the things trumpets tweeted. Instead in interviews public
and it also makes me feel like people like Paul man afford in general flynn- should are very, very nervous that things we read
make it sound like at a bare minimum. They have failed to register under Fara, which is a law that says you have to register with the government if you're going to be a representative for an agent, so not good, looking trump
firms that Malta is not just running a counter intelligence investigation, which this whole thing began with. It is now a criminal investigation.
And there was also there at all.
I ve been a grand jury and paneled for Michael Flynn there's one Virginia, but the fact that there is now
A second grand jury in DC means that this is very likely far beyond the scope of
things just is fine relating to for once it
If we fail on grandeur, Asia and as mothers Boss-
the attorney general rod. Resin Stein, set on Fox NEWS Sunday. It means at the special council can use the grand jury to investigate any crimes that he might discover within the scope of his probe. So this means that again,
The whole Clinton investigation back in the nineties began with can star
king into white water, a Arkansas real say deal and it ended with Clinton perjury himself over an affair rights of these. These things attend to go far afield of of what begins with so basically any crimes, the Donald Trump or his associates may have committed could be uncovered
with this grandeur. Yeah I bought look I've, we don't know. What's gonna come out of all this, but my f,
sense of it has always been that Michael Flynn,
and ancillary moron. So, like I put this into the Flint camp of, he was aggrieved. He wanted
hush. He skirted the rules committee either was too stupid or thought or too arrogant to follow them, but separate part,
are all these other things from your manner fortune, Don Junior and all this stuff. It's coming up so exciting gaze,
I will say another not defending flint anyway. I do think people in Washington and play fast and loose with the fair. Allow further
long time, many them don't write an Abed in their own name, supporting their client on election day when their working for them. Next present I'd, say it's very loss but glinted, especially stupid friend. The pot Adam Shifts argues that moving into the grand jury
This is very significant. He said over the weekend that it shows that there is,
there there and that this thing is, is not slowing down its ramping up, particularly because there's a sense of some wrong doing so, who knows? Will it we're
acting as we all do that anymore, but for work so and what can agree?
We do, it is, you said, can subpoena just about any record emails, it can get
testimony from just about everyone, can probably get trumps tax returns. That's good! That's gonna come up now they may be able to compel trump himself to testify.
That's how Clinton was compelled to testify pioneers buddy list already they. So we already know they ve subpoenaed records relating to
the meeting with trumped junior metaphor, commissioner, and the like
dear sir Russians. They had an around at the time of the vote. The entire buck Bolshoi valet was about to fill one of those nesting over now, not a russian other russian and individualism one. It was to remain at the Duma. Rather so does this
get more or less likely. Do you think the Trump fires Mahler that this has happened? We have not heard of Trump has not yet commented on
the grand jury story, though this morning, where the point now trumps tweets by the way like I was getting ready for the public
models like oh, my god. They were like nine trump tweets. He screaming about Dick Blumenthal and yelling about Vietnam like areas like others, crazy amendments has put his
I respect him. It's a little bit like trumps. Tweets are like drugs for the media, but now they need a stronger than something stronger. It's not get it. I'm not getting them lie as they use highs. They use to the thing. So interesting is trumps. Lawyers,
are taking a new and there isn't? There is some right about this, but trumps. Lawyers are being a bit more cans.
It or personal is hard to learn and tie com, that's possible, but basically their savings like where cooperating fully. We cannot
wait and see what happens were so excited to be working with government. I am football. Great suits, heroic guy can weigh the doktor at and that also, but was great others all internet seen lawyer stuff, because J suck allow seek allow the worst. One clearly was
J, the worst when they hit J the worst one. This is,
a new strategy to begin to be a bit more conciliatory with that special council body clearly is being bother that people are
testing and the new irish fixing things is that everything is the same evidence just remember. It has always been interesting. Aside on this is to Senators Tom. Tell us an increase. Coon's have proposed legislation that would give a judge the ability to review any decision by the President of Fire Miller, who knows
don't go anywhere, but this movement in a bipartisan way inquires. I do, I think that that's a good sign,
terms if I'd, whether tremble, far more oil at whether he'll be able to fire Mahler. Also, now, then,
entered a grand jury phase and we have agreed
and panel than there looking into crimes it every the more the comes out about this, the harder it is four trump to let's say successfully, firemen right right,
no they're not predicting whether you will not because who the fuck that's what he'll do but to success.
We fire Mahler with all this happened now at the grand jury, I think will be Turkey because we are like you said Tom. Tell us Linsey Gram.
Drafting separate legislation with some centres as well, so there's a whole bunch of legislation and for once, like
then it come robbery and decorum is keeping session safe. You notice, but like yeah, it's their standing up for the institution because they like session, so his ability like you, have eat. He can't fire sessions because they ve all these republican centres have made it clear that they want. Let him refilled a job, the sentence not going into recess, so you know you
has made a good point, awhile back, which has a lot of people expected that the russian investigation would also
We bring down the rest of trumps agenda, but the reverse could be true, which is the failure of health care. Reform could speak,
we start making Republicans in the Senate has realised like this guy. We basically only have him here
because he's a pan, Beata consign Oliver conservative remark,
legislation, and if you can't even do that, then what
doing what's good is either right there tolerating their head because they can put a pen in the tiny hands. It is like stuff that head Villa fast,
food and get it signing things and it's not working lives could sit.
In turn. Ecstatic riches are some republican politicians, finally starting to look for the exits
Over the weekend, Jonathan Martingale explains the New York Times, reported that a shadow campaign for a potential twenty twenty primary towns to Trump has begun and includes potential candidates like Ben SAS. John K, sick in
President MIKE pants, I just want to say that this show is
fond we're talking about a lot of fun topics and I'm so glad we want on healthcare, because now we get to do this, but this was not what this is about. The elbow able to this morning a barely or an had said that we are moving on to tag of Rome
Secondly, administration still talking about healthcare because they shot their walk on health care.
Why the salty language for more? In a? U turn, but that is unfortunately looks like, but the new times we are. I don't know like
but I did make total sense to me. That's a sin. Some of these other folks who are pretty overtly anti trump, would begin planning for two thousand and twenty the MIKE Pence stuff. It read to me, like you, do
savvy politician he's going to Iowa unease meeting with donors. After that event, he's having the coat brothers over to his house is the place like Fett, big donors, he's making small political meetings he's like your booked up his staff with some good political operatives, not like legislative guys. So yet it is, is my pants thinking to himself. He would love Donald Trump job absolutely did seem to me like. There was evidence of him making an overt play for it right now, not quite yet, it seems like a guy who's. Looking at a president who may not make it, there is termed right keeping his options open. Yet out of the same thing, I come through the peace
four times to emigrate, where's the actual evidence for the past of the clauses, as that is at an age. The vice president told people towards a prominent indian Republican. That pence was preparing to running,
case. There was an opening and twenty twenty and was reaching out for potential help so that that does he like look, meaning that the fact is, though, that pensions at least thinking that drunk my
not be able to run in twenty twenty or might not be a cannon twenty. That would be that something big and its import remember. My pants is a script
more on near he's, a bad person who would shift Donald Trump and a heartbeat he's Donald Trump Vice president, but by definition he's bad man,
so you'll do it to take signing the times I was raised, like he's being very sad nurse I've, but also, but just to look at it, even if we work if we took off all cynicism away from this conversation, linking the thinks he's doing going too,
we're doing some, our politics talking a big donors. Keeping people happy in the tent could help with a real act as
Well, it's right so yeah who knows but savvy operate well, might but
one way that he be savvy by unscrupulous one.
That he was savvy is
He immediately realise that Donald Trump is gonna, read this story and fully Pat, oh yeah. Do you see the stated that has built up a laser like just it might as well said I m working for the greatest man in his ear the world miss our colleague. Mr President, this statement is for you. I love you brought up
Jonathan Martin was dream, but this too said that he they were worn. The mere temps was warned by the principle that they would be pushing back ferociously on the story if it were, if he printed it. This is
The stories are. This is gonna grind trumps gears for months in three weeks, he's gonna do an interview with like MIKE dot com.
Place. We wouldn't expect secular by the way peasant
six I'm glad. I did a lot of trumps tweets this morning were about how great the bases all of these problems I've had, if only brought the base together.
This is DR yea. It certainly do not its again like somebody, it's very much. Like George diverse, like message, I care units was to talk about the base that president didn't call them the base. Either Europe there people their american citizens, Europe debate.
The other is over, but putting putting pens aside. You have said
and then you have to sort of a general kind of group of Republican that are the anti trust people like flake and of being more vocal but the day
why, though, has been being dropped by beating the drum and its. I think a very fair criticism, which is ok, you're, vocal where's, the action that Jeff Flakes
was. Was rail against AL tramping? A birth are but then voted to confirm a
traditional nominee by Trump who is a birth so
an imbalance has, as it is the same way, I think bends ass. If some like events,
lived up to the standard that benzene sat. I think we'd be seeing a very different version of him. He wanted a point on this. This question of will trump have a primary opponent. I mean I would love
to see that happen, and I would love to seal sea like a real conversation on the right and the Republican Party about his record and thinks he's done that who he is a man, but I
No, I have no faith that that primary opponent will be covered in a fair way,
like the Magua media establishment is not gonna, walk away from their all in on him because he gets the money in ratings and they do at enough's propped up all the.
About these literally inventing news that leads us to modernize kids imago industrial complex. Since this is my question phrase quaint, visited this question about this- is how do you run against tromp if you're in the republican primary like? Maybe perhaps you don't run against him like a ban SAS word or John case awkward and say
he's not living up to conservative principle, conservative free market principles kazakh as observers, because what the lie, the Republicans, the establishment, publicans and not realise yet is conservative. Free market principles are not popular in this country. There not like trumps based, doesn't believe in them, and the Democrats don't believe. So. That's that's two problems right. That's two big groups of people, the dumbly them. So the question is: do you? Do you run against Trump of your public and from the other side saying that he is
not lived up to his economic nationalism. His populism, like he, had
delivered on all these promises he made to the base of the party. That's what I'm wondering what yeah you ve talked to others before to serve a wary where you can come a trampoline where's. The wall like somebody
if there is no law, you can say where's that someone someone on the right, a Trump says he told the mexican president and a transcript at the wall was the least important part of our conversation, but it was politically big deal to him he's not real, no charms.
No, I didn't you are aware that, although the skies purple the living too, is that that that part of what makes a challenging to trap took to challenge trump on either side
am, I don't. You know the sides are anymore. Is he did successfully changed the conversation in the republican party? He personally attack the dogmas that every other person on that stage at here too, and so they are his. They aren't. They they are his
debating points like he's the one who came in and said the Republicans wrong on trade and Republicans wrong an immigration. We need to build a wall like he made that the access of debate
republican Party, so can be so
for anyone to claim that they deserve it.
Yeah, there's not a lot. I mean there's like the Tom cotton.
They're right that you could sort of sea right to his right. But if not, I guess he's at higher costs, or is it just you just can't they give
This picture them now lies I wanna cheer for by the way, with the lives we clear on that belonging to have either this is no heroes. Anatomy sales should really have to pick pick aside, but that, but you did like picture these people standing side by side with them
and the one thing he was so good doing, just exposing wimpy little politician
what they were Yandah Tom Cotton is exposing notes.
This is all about twenty twenty, but let's talk about why this matters before twenty twenty
we're very tight, but how is congressional agenda is legislative agenda suffering a bit because
ah, begins in the Senate and the House now are not sticking with Trump on it.
They're gonna go in their own way. He's also got some
comes within his own white house.
The people of its not just with just involve establishing staff shake ups, but like
there's continuing weeks, we saw these. Do we recorded right before the transcripts of the footprint later calls out Tommy? What what do you think about this?
They know. I know you love. It had a little conversation about my eyes. I heard impassioned case unless it or leave it this weekend to great show, thank you,
subject, area we do from a lovely that we let us move on
Does it really has gotten out? It's got the I heard you make a case for why these links are good and we should support in any case, because we have had Terrell president. We need to have more for midnight. I just can't help, but
process is someone who worked on the sea and, like knows how the meat, so when the present called foreign leader a transcript,
often made her. A memorandum of a conversation is made up by the no take her to in in the room. Those things can be not a big deal like eating be calling care hope again.
Vote on x thing at the: U N, Orkney, incredibly, sensitive, hey Prime Minister Netanyahu, please don't bomb IRAN
It would really by me out, if you blunder on this week, unless I do that, so it's can spend the damn it. I think both
I need to have some sense that they can have a private conversation, and so that's true internally. That's you routine trimmed team trump, but also any one he would talk to. I saw it does worry me that these things are leaking out. It feels, like things are break
in terms of our ability to protect conversations or sensitive information that I dont know, though we can fix. But I am a little precious about this. I think that's how I look. I hear that I dont care and I dont care, because this is gonna, be you're right.
It's actually write that that what's happening is people inside administration are gonna, are breaking these two
for secrecy like important things, are just the basic function of the phone call mechanism that the present has is being broken right now those things can leak. Anything can be linked. It's a huge problem, but a problem we can fix and Donald Trump is damaging all kinds of norms. Institution
It's not a surprise that in turn, there's an internal response to that. That is also breaking some things that we like and would rather have for the next president that we were glad were in place for Barack Obama. It's gonna take time
to repair the damage from Donald Trump, but I just this
one of the things where these things are
leak and exposure down from his doing how unprepared for the job? Ok, it's a price reduction
I am in favour of it. Maybe I don't know I am again: I'm not I'm not blaming the journalists and I'm not seeing these new at the news outlets shouldn't be publishing things, but he was part of the detective conversation that transcript late. I think they're tagamet, where nuclear subs were position than exists, the lot of second third or things get out there that are just disconcerting to me, or you know, information that won't be conveyed to us
through that channel that otherwise would have, and meanwhile, over the State Department wreck. Sillerton has literally no one working in the building to talk to these fuck. So tell me: what's the universe of people who have these transcripts and could leak them, it depends on the. It depends on the call these in seem like the most sensitive calls are sharp introductory cause like I used to get transcripts of lots of foreign leader cause in my little sit
Cubbyhole Box. I get a lot of guidance causes were were it. Let me tell you he's the best it, but you know if Obama was calling the president of Afghanistan
to talk about reconciliation, which is that the attempt at a peace process there that probably would have been one of the most closely held pieces of paper in the government or maybe a transcript, wouldn't have been made? So there's a lot of four ways is stuff goes down. Like is at the heart of Photoshop
something sought that hard hit forward on your email is sometimes they come to your high side, email, your classified email and you can push out the someone in
goes and goes not via, but this also like a war in the see, that's deeply
dangerous in it. Doesn't I don't know that these leaks are part of that war, but the war against me
after the war or bodies, creepy aids,
adding insane memos in getting fired? I mean there's weird shit going on that just feels unstable as yet it's hard not to pull for my master and Kelly and trying to like purred some of these crazies, even if it like
who knows, even if regional structures, the White House, in a more orderly fashion. I just think for, like the safety and security of the world, like some of these people
see the unit
need to get out of here. It's hard because I do want
then and see the kind of national security apparatus that exist before tromp animal just after Trump to function that has to function really important. You know what this is
the anniversary of I guess. It's the
sixteen year anniversary of the memo that Bush got. That said,
then lot and determined to strike in the. U s. We have apps
lately no idea what very soon
great mornings, and information is currently passing through the channels to the president. That process still needs to work
terrifying to think that Donald Trump Helms it because you know it's you
you know that he doesn't have the capacity to properly process this.
Information, so it's this bouncing active. I want that ASP
a function, but at the same time, if Donald Trump doesn't have secrecy on his phone calls, I think that's ok, because I want to know what Donald Trump assigned to these people, because I don't
TIM and I don't believe you justice. I barter pointing Maggie hidden reported on that long form. Pike ass. You talked about the trumpets still using his old cellphone, which is probably getting collected on by at least a half dozen intelligences, so ok, but palace intrigue in fighting
that new and is also not new national security like Power versus Cheney and right, there's a whole history, the stuff, but what? What, when you, when you read about Mc Master,
trying to purge in a sea of people that are
in memory of talks about a domestic international threats to Trump that include globalist bankers. The deep state is lamas, compare the twin Maoist insurgency, who are these people and where they doing, and then the head of the Intel Directorate as Recon walking, which is like go back ice job is to like manage covert action programmes in the most sensitive intelligence collection were doing period in
world. Why is this guy running and enemies list, or you know getting together with Devon Nunez? To do this? Weird off the books briefing? I write that this stuff is worrisome. It is not just keystone. Cop is
they are living in a dark place doesn't really exist in reality. No, it is. It is malfeasance mixed with, as we said many times, the incompetence of the outcome of the broader administration right and that incompetence, then competence is creating a vacuum for a lot of bad people to go into that. They be just the kind of people.
Who would not have access to any lovers of power, even what not certainly not a Democrat, but not even a Republican like a job Bush or even a marker rubia. These are people that have no business being in administration and that's why you that's? Why is he Mcmasters Electronic get these kinds of people out in their finding common cause with right wing media outlets that are the people that peddled pizza gate and claim that Hillary Clinton had Parkinson's disease in India? There was no price for that, and yet these guys relic openly anti semitic there
putting up cartoons that have like the Rothschilds holding a doll of Soros, who told him up Mc Master, it doesn't get more blatant gimme that
some of these media like crazy. You know, I'm not gonna, say their names, because I don't wanna ever talk about them, but like crazy right wing bloggers, you are getting leaks from the
bowels of the sea in the administration to go after my master and Trump apparently doesn't like master cousin,
recent. An orderly way he doesn't like fuck around when they're talking about Afghanistan, so Trump gets mad that again
isn't going well and threatens to send him there in lieu of more troops, which I don't think they should do, but I mean the whole thing:
What year did professional weirdest thing happened?
I see meeting as Mc Master was speaking and Trump picked up to him a remote and try to convey
Was that only talk? You all know this.
The fundamental problem right like you could talk about the problem of leaks. You can take it
the problem of in shake up in Europe
palace I was cast off the phone with the of a president who is too incompetent
job and is also in no one, can trust right. Like those foreign call, those foreign transcripts for leader transcripts revealed, the Trump lied about a lot of things.
They they revealed him to be a liar and also like he's not like. He doesn't like
that is national security adviser gives orderly briefings, like president I'd stasis, books to fucking ass and also by the way, one thing to note from those those leaks is Turnbull Pinion, yet, both
came off. Well now they did not say anything: they wouldn't comfortably saint a press conference and so once again, there's a week,
or there's an interview, and the only person that looks terrible is our present at these are hard jobs in
never gonna by two, a thousand and you're gonna make em up
our mistakes but like like seven months, these guys don't have their sea legs there still fighting with each other constantly and North Korea is just ramping up launching missiles in this guy, like thereby rockets every other day and in the U S. Getting caught, surpass sanctions and that's good and its rule win for Trump, but in for us and for the world, but I dont logistic, like bad process, always leads to bad outcomes. A good process can hopefully get you good outcomes, but they are not guaranteed. Disease are hard problem. Pod save America is brought, you buy movement.
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Out of office. Oh good, this speaking of terrible press scenario comes the Democratic Party. Have you learned things? I know you know that,
The programmes in the tank it throw the Lois has ever been
to see some slippage from even the republican
base their favorability rating of Donald Trump, but gallop did a survey of his approval
Eddie, what trumps operating on a state by state basis and congressional destroyed by congressional district gray and the,
Troubling thing is a lot of the slippage in his appropriating is in democratic states or even when it's the Republicans who stopped approving an of Trump our republic,
living in democratic areas right and so because approve
rating in a lot of these republican areas is still hovering around or lenity swing districts and we're gonna try to flip and twenty eighteen forget about twenty. It still like forty six, forty seven percent, and so the question is how to Democrats capitalize on all of this,
These are winning, so we can Macao, because I knew that member that earlier never footing so because I was there
Gregson Howard, you doing on the project of getting our shit together. Last week, Rhine Cooper of the week or two peace titled. Why leftists? Don't trust? Come Harris, Corey, Booker and develop Patrick
who he called court, a handful of minority Democrats being groomed by the central establishment to run for office. He then lay out the reasons that the populace left distrust these three Harris her past as a prosecutor, failure charged Treasury secretary, Steve Menuhin for his misconduct at one West Bank, Patrick for his employment, have been capital Booker for his comments, defending being capital that twelve campaign and support for charter schools. So he lay that this peace, David actions of Washington Monthly, then writes a piece in response. That said, while these may be legitimate complaints about these three in targeting black candidates like Booker Harrison Patrick Cooper gives further fuel to those who claim that Sanders aligned economic progress.
Have racist motivations or at least that they are tone deaf and poor allies on matters of identity in social justice. He goes on to say that the establishment on either hand must stop treating class were activists as second class citizens in the party love it. You treated the story. You treated the Atkins stories that everyone should read it
your thoughts on this and tiresome with responses that you got your very if not act? Now the response is now. I think that there is too big conversations going on one, that's really important and
and one that's less helpful. The one that's really important is why our democratic world
where we gone wrong. What can we learn from Bernie?
what can we learn from Hilary? What can we learn from across? What can we learn from Corbett like what what
lessons aware liberalism, progressive ISM is winning or where it
And what can we draw from that? Where should we be shifted to the left, whereas it more about messaging means that these are big fundamental questions about? Why Democrats
appealing to huge swathes of the country, and- and it goes it goes beyond this notion. You know this this incident, so there's that conversation very important, then there's a less helpful conversation witches
a basically boils down to. Oh, you want to go after the white Working class. I add to the exclusion of the female
minority base of the Democratic Party that there's a lot of accusations echo both sides that really assume a lot of bad faith. I think there's a lot of partisans within the Democratic Party that have been vindictive that there's a tonne.
Sexism and enters viciousness inside of this debate, and I think that the point that David Agnes making the pieces here the axes of the debate that are really helpful. You know, where should we be on healthcare? Why are why are people on the left to the party skeptical of those who have worked with the financial sector like like obeying capital? Why is that an important thing to recognise and address
and so to me, it's it's about recognising that we're allies in a very big fight and that you
We on the left is one of the most important things we can do to combat Trump Worthington. Get me, though, the Paul you started by talking. That is disconcerting. I think it speaks to the
closed information loops that exists had during the election next to the power of the Maghreb media. If you don't have friends
you hear from everyone here about like what's going on in Washington most days, because
too busy, and you don't have friends to talk to you about it. You don't have Facebook friends who post things like you're, never going to hear about all the stuff. We all need to remember that as we obsess about it, Trump has certainly helped us paper over a lot of our differences. I think the health care fight,
great point of unity that allowed us to truly unite in support of a priority and a goal that you don't. I don't I don't know the answer like I dont get being this critical, this early of Booker in Comma Harris and develop Patrick. I think those are great public servants, I'm proud of their members of the party times. I've interacted with them personally. I've been credibly oppressed by a smart,
are they couldn't their jobs, they they fight hard for things. I care about and believe in so you know I was a little struck by the amount of
justice and some parts of the internet and get against someone? I put
We hadn't actually seen a lot of it until I was going back and pour the reporter and talking about it, so we
Let us also feel like I know, I'm just like restating the problem, which would Democrats do, but I want to protest
humility, because I don't know that I spent enough.
I'm listening to people from both sides of the spectrum here who are upset about these things. I think, like part of what we want. This show to be is a place today are those things as openly as
and the one thing I do worry about is if those conversation could shut them yeah. I do, and I think that's a good point. One of the big problems with these conversations is that their happening on twitter,
which is at which I think is an incredibly useful tool that I am addicted to younger, but its very high
to be subtle and nuanced, and two hundred and forty characters- and I just I know you're say like I'm sometimes afraid to say things even on this push past, as we start talking about that
we're credit party, because I start editing in my head in imagining after this podcast cast the tweets that we're gonna get either from the left or from some Hilary supporters or from some Bernie supporters that we didn't
acknowledge their positions and the challenges that they face in the TWAIN, sixteen primary and it so it in its
it like actually stopped me from saying some sayings himself, I'm like we're just gonna get in trouble and I don't think we can be in a position if we're gonna try to like you
this party eventually and go win in twenty eighteen and twenty twenty, like, I think we're gonna have to have some super uncomfortable awkward conversations where we make me
in some of the things we say, and we like learn from people, that we didn't
You know you're an end, not assume and not look for reasons to believe you. Somebody shouldn't be listened to write like looking for excuses to not hear somebody the yacht yeah already, but but the start, one of the things we can do is to focus less on individual personalities until it's time for election and focused more on like what we stand for his party and to talk about. The issues like the Democratic Party is a party that must stand for economic justice for racial justice for social justice. Right like we must fight racism in all its forms. We must fight sexism in all its forms and we have to fight
poverty and inequality relic. We have to do all these things and we have to be able to stand for all these things and we can't start ordering which of those issues is more important than the others, because when we do that, then we start breaking into different camps like it's all important and all and also looking a comma hard
record totally reasonable. You have concerns about it totally reasonable raise them. You have concerns about patriots, tones Corey, Bucker, great, don't treat them as as deal breakers, treat them as reasons to class
in somebody you evaluate what their far from ideal candidates, o answers and explanations on anything like if you're wondering, like ok, devolve Patrick
You know explain why you went to work for bank capital. Does calmly Harris, explain your record as a prosecutor. Go ahead. Corbo give you believe and try to schools. Tell us why and let's debated rehab like they. Of course, they always explanations but, like I dont think you just cross them off.
List, because their pass, without letting them at least talk about the stuff and then also just you know,
look at the policy debates and there's a big policy debates be told that healthcare right and whether single pair should be a litmus test for our for Democrats moving forward. Ah, I understand arguing for that as position, but you're like we had Chris Murphy on, he said he's for a public option and like
Democrats choose the absolute worse names for thing. What are you for single pay or public option like what the fuck are you talking about like, but you look at. You
will that debate down and it comes down to argue for access to medical care for all, were you for Medicare for all right? That's the big debate is an important debate
like remember that we are on the same side and that we are
adversaries and by the way, also, this debate is never resolve. You never win. This argument that the argument between them that the centre left in the left is at the heart of the Democratic Party, and I think the most important thing is that everyone feels included and part of that conversation in developing what the party stands for, that people on the list
the burning of the party do not feel in the next round of elections
there being sidelined or the deck a stack against him at the same time that people in the centre left aren't made to feel like their republicans that they're the same as Trump just because they have a different point of view on some key policy issues like that to me, like
you made in good faith, not see each other's adversaries. That is the most important thing as we go into these next elections and the use of this before. But we need to be patient with our allies and we need to be able to learn from our allies, and we need to be able to like here the voices and learn from the voices of people across the spectrum and people from all different backgrounds right like where
like the three of us three. Why do? Why would you do if I gotta you tie on that? I too, that's it, there's a lot of perspectives that we don't have right that we need to do that. We need to learn from so we try to bring all these people on and learn from it to its documents, if one of us having the conversation in its important for no one to believe that they have all the answers on this kind of thing, I mean that we issued a race engender are a very important part of these conversations. I think that that initial article understandably bothered some people exit singled out. Three Afghan America.
Democrats in that seem surprising that thou it it would be written that way. I think we should be honest about that
and I think we shall be honest- that for people who have felt frustrated by the party and the lack of progress in the lack of that support and help in their community being told, you know to be patient and will work. These things out is probably pretty goddammit
after decades in decades. In decades of that, and so you know that I dont know how to fix it. I think
One thing we're trying to do here is is have a form to create, as many arms conversation
we have not just on the show, but all the other shells were trying to develop, which are happening not as fast as we want, but there are happening at the end of the day. This is also boat,
figuring out to figure out a way to win elections. Ok and you have to be
to figure out a way to win an election, despite whatever institutional challenges you may face. So in two thousand and seven Barack Obama faced quite a few institutional challenges. Right
was a black man named Brok, Hussein Obama, from the Southside of Chicago who was facing lot of institutional racism. He could not fifty. He could not fix that.
Dictionaries, isn't he you could only figure out a way to overcome it. The other thing he faced was Hillary Clinton campaign, which has the support of the entire democratic establishment, including the Democratic National Committee and a bunch of super,
trade and he had to figure out a way to overcome that as well. So when you look back at twenty, sixteen right, like the burning people, say well, the whole establishment was against us and Hillary Clinton Energy. They
and says to end in two thousand and we just had to figure out a way around now in
Obama did and they turned
There was a mile wide an inch deep, isn't like Hillary Clinton Clinton faced a monumental amount of institutional sexism absolutely, but the next woman who runs for president is going to have to figure out a way around that because we're not gonna stop running women. Candidates were
run more and where they have to do is figure out a way to win. Despite the sexism and Canada on the left are gonna have to figure out a way to win, despite establishment support from the other can and by the way, despite
spite and entrenched donor class, then you have every reason to be suspicious of you know absolutely, unlike so yeah, there's no
There is no easy answers here, but the more
morning adding this point that David I can make some that washing post peace is if this device
moves along the same fault lines as the twenty sixteen primary
we are in real real trouble and it's dangerous and unhelpful, and I can see it happening well. I wouldn't want it I'd I'd slightly to screw that. I think that a vigorous primary with a whole bunch of opponents is a net good thing
even if the ultimate candidate has some lasting wounds from that primary process, because I think
three Bernie. Oh Molly was probably not a big, and I feel that we could have seen more vigorous debate that that just felt larger and more real too. We should fight it out, but yeah you're right. I mean you fight differently their family effectively, your friends than you, then you do against the other team. You unity should not come at the cost of
hey bring over our differences right, we're not we're looking for unity for unity, sake, you and he should come after a vigorous debate, but it should be the end point, yeah and and by the way,
This will be a new conversation because we all learned a lot for twenty have seen. We learned what we
to accept what we didn't we'd better. Have that one or more in the present one last thing about this too, is an outrage on maritime, doesn't drive that we also should lose like politics. It doesn't have to be an exhausting slug. It doesn't have to be like being the rock Obama campaign for him
it was ex inspiring and it was fun right. You believed in him and you cared about you fought really hard and you know: listen, not offended. Donald Trump, we're not on the fence, but Donald Trump, but being for Donald Trump is pretty fun
You go to rally you cheer. He tells you everything you're, all your worst instincts are valid veto. It you have a good time being for Donald Trump is fun, for people being for Democrats needs to be fun. It can just be a bridge
exhausting competition. It can't be it's alive. Now is a little rose, colored glasses because it being for your right being for brag about fundamentally was inspiring is fun that primary between plummet,
Clinton was fucking burden; it was that started out on a year we set about each other and the other side was was truly. It got bigger, dirty new Hampshire.
Until we finally won the nomination is like blacked out at my mom.
I can think about is gaining like forty pounds in looking like a White Walker.
Just wanting to ended all every single day and now imagine being on the losing side, not done what about you? What makes you feel better? I think about that. We use this.
Say that we knew how Hillary Clinton would do in a primary before it happened, because she always did just well enough to have a justification for staying in, but not well enough to change any dynamic in the rest. So we just
that would go on till the bitter better at anyway.
Currently a great. I thought about where we go back
have John Limits conversation with Bloomberg business weeks, Joshua Green
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So I have something to say about that. While I was away this weekend, two bottles of wine were delivered to our
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Yes, I did. I did Michael O Neill be the cash up. I really really
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joining us on upon today, Josh were green. He is the author of Devils, Bargain Steve Ban and Donald Trump and the storming of the presidency's also in national correspondent for Bloomberg Business Week, long to the Pike S great to be here. So, first of all, the book-
it's a great red, so I'll be honest. I was reluctant to crack this thing open till I sort of spend my time.
To understand Steve Ban and better, but it's,
well written. It is a picture, and it really is that thing you say at the outset is you can understand trumpet
understanding where Steve Manner came from and really feel that, as you read the book, so one question
on the start out with what did you
not understand about Steve, Bannon, trumps adviser, I think, didn't
understand whether he
for real or not any cultivates. This kind of myths crosses the other voldemort of politics and he can't gets off and stuff. But it's not right.
The true and what was so and shoot me about Ben. I met him back and twenty. Let me call me up out of the blue after some articles. Written answers
very optimistic, smart funny in a profane, clever guy just has a different way of looking at the world, and so
on the morning after I had I'd pre written like a chump, I
Business Week my magazine clothes and was at pre written Hilary wins story like three thousand
are more ready to go, and I repeat it up, like ten p m the next morning
right turn into my mom call. There was like little what happened you big she went a
big Hilary voter, and I
we know, but looking back in ice or felling, I could put the threads together abandoned and tromp and I didn't see it coming, but looking back, I could see how it happened, and that was the idea of the store, the narrative that want to tell the book he has
reputation he is this guy pulling the strings he's the source of trumps nationalism, white nationalism, racial resentment, exploitation is at all. There is
I mean look at you know. This book has a lot of intellectual ISM around Steve.
Please read a lot about traditional Catholicism. He's an auto die jack. All this philosophy within trunk goes on the stump uneasy
gender people should be in the military without a knock the crap out of these animals on the streets. I think that what
and it has and what he recognise is that concern?
preventive politics is its represented by republican leaders in Washington head long ago, become disengaged from the interests and needs of the base, but I think, would ban and recognised because of the circles he traveled
was especially the power of illegal immigration.
As a motivating issue for conservative voters. I think honestly for some mom blue collar
put a silent Johnny whom I did is a professional career. I will read out loud: it's a trumpet, wiser, very exciting, but
that was his main kind of contribution. The idea that he somebody who you know he he's such a freak and it comes out of such a weird background- that he wasn't captive to kind of the mental structures that I think of his afflicting the ordinary republican politicians and solved come up.
Heritage Foundation and in turn, for Paul Ryan, and you know they're like that.
Robots, he saw something different and he was able to do that because he was a part of what I dug in the
The conservative underworld, like not the respectable, conserve, replace like Fox and national review, but bright barred infringed,
Talk Radio and been an himself. No people forget this. I think, is important here to host this bright, but
Call in radio show I d I used to do it for like three hours a day: people who became trump voters, but those kinds of people caught all day long been was talking. These be ones. I think he understood
internalized their anxieties and how to manipulate them and that that was that was really a key to kind of storming the european harmonization and then, in the
yeah. The word storming there is pregnant with meaning say, was easy to exploit this idea.
Is he a sincere advocate for these policies? Right that you know it you look, you will get this phone call. It just gets leaking of Donald Trump saying to the present in Mexico,
this is the least important thing, but the most important thing politically, you ve been in it.
You ve been on this quest to find a vessel, as you say, in the book first Pale and Bach
looking for someone to carry this torch, he finds his Donald Trump and and there
to the races. But
it a means to an end, as he actually believe in this kind of anti immigrants. I didn't you white lies
I first met him. I thought he was just a drifter em. He is
way of speaking is like the high
Energy, salesmen, cooked up Wall Street Ays Investment banker, and I thought
these scam pack ice Nina these guys that sort of existing around the fringes of washing and trying to make a fast buck at whatever the latest political trend in he was a big tea party, Paling Guide, and so all that stuff seem to line up, but it became clear pretty quickly that it really does believe the stuff
I pray rich guy doesn't need to make a fast buck off anybody, and I
sincere to a frightening degree in everything that he talks and says
has a lot of vices, but he doesn't. He
lie. He isn't really span in the way that normal political people do. He kind
where's is unaware on the outside of me I'll tell you exactly what he believes, no matter how appalling or upsetting it might be to mainstream discourse is a racist. I dont honestly think
he is at least not in not in that kind of storm front. You know clan hood wearing, since I have to be that I think no it doesn't have to and that's where it gets into trickier. I think that he is more motivated by religion that he is by race, and one of the threads in the book is tat.
Facing the Islamophobia all the way back to his experience
the Navy. He was over the Persian Gulf during the failed mission to rescue, ran hostages and even before that, to this
Weird right wing, catholic Military High school, he went to enrichment virginitas on his classmates, who were like look. We were taught from a freshman year that
Civilization, is under assault by Islam and the more than four men and Isabel on the fifteen hundred save christen them in the western world ups. But if the moves and Van into a frightening
reacting internalized at an inn and believes it, and so the way that manifests itself is a hostility I think, to Muslims or or to muslim immigrants and refugees.
I'd- God bigotry. Ok within that, if that falls in your definition- and I was gonna wait- and I think also- and I think also toward immigrants from Central America, Mexico that coming,
What I ve never seen or heard from banning and he's he's been exe
Was it on many other hot button issues as any kind of anti black
and I semitic comment. He gets kind of charged with,
these things, some of them I've seen- and I quote some horribly misogynistic. I think this is by Hillary Clinton, but but others I haven't bull. Dyke is the term that
he's in a book. Can I swear
you can say what everyone we get an united. It was fucking, bold, just just any called point
all right. A limp, Dick mother, easy, I guess he's got. Martin was always right out. Yet, let's see, let's hear of self employed here, but but it's too I mean I don't know.
Van and is motivated by a hatred for black. We burning like that. I think it's a little more complex
than that. Although the way into fact, maybe some you can reserve decide
here, that there is some fundamental judeo christian American national identity that is threatened by the influx of immigrants and right yeah. But then
you end up with an ad in the run up to the election in which he talks about some globalist conspiracy and, of course, who is the conspirators there? Three, jewish financial people, you look at what Donald Trump his onion are used
talk about her Donald Trump became that's perfect vehicle for balance. Politics in Waterway Donald Trump has been practising a form of this politics for decades he takes out that are calling for the execution of the central park. Five. He has been talking about these lousy trade deals for as long as he's been in the past.
I and so you you can have this or combination of a willingness to exploit white grievance and white resentment, and this Anti Europe
organ position on trade and immigration in Trump before bandit rights issue, but I think I saw it. I only trouble is in any event in not to be too to origin,
are you my boy now. Do it but they're they're? Ok, if you go back to the seventies, tromp was, as you said, absolutely explicit, pressing racial hot buttons, but one of them
trusting sort of lines, research in the book is not just is not Japan. I do. I do trumpet, who, in Trump from about two thousand,
or when he began the oppressed to two thousand eleven. When he began
The racist, Bertha Rance against Obama, made himself wildly popular with African Americans and Hispanics, who were huge fans of the apprentice and
what were actually had had. I went found a cue ratings of of trust among all the demographic groups, trumpets more
minorities, he was a white people back that which made him a darling of corporate Amerika, and so he is willing to
spoilt racial grievances when that is in his best interests and is willing to subordinate, though
impulses and embrace minorities. When that is in itself, I think he flew floss back and forth. Doesn't have any fixed beliefs,
but as soon as he decided, you want to run against Obama, which, which was the motivating factor in the birth or stuff. He was happy to chuck
overboard and go right back to doing what he done the seventies and eighties you had this. I quote that I wanted to read in the book
I thought was does really well said. Tromp was
uncanny ability to read an audience intuited in the spring of two thousand. Eleven that the birth or calumny could help forge a powerful connection with party activists. He also figured out the norms forbidding such behave-
we're not invaluable rules that carried a harsh penalty rather sent.
Men of a nobler bygone era- gossamer
and needlessly adhered to by politicians who locked his willingness to defy them. He could violate them with impunity and pay a price for it. In fact, you discovered reply
voters thrilled to his provocations and rewarded him. That, I think, is the core insight into Donald Trump. It's it's not that he is willing to do any
It's that he recognised that. Not only is there not a cost but he be actively rewarded. So I
I went and talk to some of the earlier tranquilizers guys like Roger Stone, who'd known him for a long time and went really deep on this point, which is that of stone
submit it to me and he says in the book that Trump wanted to run. Two thousand and twelve really really wanted to run, and he saw that this birth or stuff. It connect
Ok, and not only did it connect, but he rose to the top of the pause. I'd forgotten until you, the research for the book, the trumpets actually leading the republican presidential field
in the spring of twenty eleven at another. Yeah. Isn't it?
and I was in the middle of the birth or stuff, but the other thing he noticed stone pointed this out to me. You know
The brand new Chairman Republican National Committee was one month into the job when Trump started his birth or stuff. It was right
Reba right any very first scandal that previous scandal, the previous, had to address as
Are you Aren T chairman with Trump gone off in this Bertha ran, and I
found this interviews on C Span, the Jonathan Morton and Jeff Zella me to veteran political force, they were interviewed previous unceasingly
in zones. I came in your trump went out and essentially called the black pearl
anyhow: Canyon, Muslim. I are you gonna condemn this in previous just hymns.
Ha you just completely wiped out in stone, told me that trumpet that moment recognised that the Republicans
I wish my legitimate a week. Jellyfish who allow themselves to be walked all over. That's exactly what happened! I do not want to take us
Ryan's previous tangent, but that's soft little wimp that create
and despicable guy I mean at every turn. Trump has made a full at him, a fool
from the beginning, you made a fool of him when he was a birth or made a fool around with that pledge. Member the pledge that have applied for VAT Donald Trump from running as an independent eyes, closed one rate, irate genius on believable,
Ok, so, let's go to where rat right now we ve seen a series of legislative defeats or introduced a failure. Will it get anything big across the finish line? Meanwhile, this in the past two weeks, Donald Trump, tweeted transgender Ban- he came out forever
harsh anti immigration law of proposal by Tom Cotton Jeff Session
it has put forward or their reports. It is going to put forward a plan to try to put an end to affirmative action doctrine
went to the boys goddamn borri of all places of stoked a kind of animal
and then, when in front of law enforcement, Suffolk County and said these around,
as you know, we had a knock the crap out of an while eat, that's his old for his now, whatever I can remember these equitably encourage police brutality than later said. It's a joke. This feels like a return to baseline a kind of the ban in politics again without right yet, but it was always gonna go.
Right I mean in unless he turned out to be some miracle legislator. He doesn't have the powers of concentration in the ability to subordinate his own ego before much a senator, so use all can fail on this issue
He does. He falls back on the kind of banning base politics and that's why ban and I think it's such a
unable to survive. Like the series of perch Citizen, I am all the back stabbing, but be is he
and administration that is just calamitous in failing every which way ban in his managed to win.
On these issues. That cares about. Like immigration, I mean it's uncanny to me.
How much the administration has been able to get done in Miller explained
I d Beginner View Stephen Miller very much in the news for his immigration stuff this week
minor Santa Monica Fascists has yet for this. As your words like I'm, not that I'm throwing up a great objection, I'm glad
I just need to make sure I random right job is present, but going rate was. Immigration is the one area where we actually have to pass laws the laws on the books. We have a lot of latitude and how we enforce them and arrests are up. I think, deportations, Europe. I note the sessions set more judges to the border and ban in his
big, advocate of lowering legal
migration, which you just saw with your eyes. The cotton bill this week, so high
is managing to get a lot of what he wants, just by dint of his ability to survive all the knife fighting in the West wing. So you now spent these months
in the mind of banning in the country and understand what led to this cataclysmic event release what open the door to it. What is the lesson so for let's say for Democrats were looking in this insane
We don't want to play it in the shopping or adopt any of this want to fight this one figure out. We knew how to fight tradition. Republicans
and at the presidential level we were good at that we're looking ahead to twenty eighteen, twenty twenty! What's the lesson for Democrats from Stefanik, you know, I'm gonna get lots of angry tweets and lessons from the lesson
me abandon is the he was a shrewder analyst of both republican and democratic politics between say, two thousand and thirteen and two thousand and sixteen and anybody else. One of the things that attracted them is not only just that kind of the colorful lightness of his slovenly.
In a lab, but that he really is a shrewd guy in a lot of ways and what drew me to my originally was his critique of how concerned
does. It failed and ninety nine when they went after the Clinton's, it was
yet they became so absorbed in their own tail and so trapped in their own bubble that they didn't recognize they weren't connecting with Russia, one which it, which I agree with the Indian tell a story of how it came up with a clear cache book in all that in the book
and break through into the mainstream media and sour people against Clinton? But the lesson for Democrats, it seems to me, is
no. I don't want to spoil the ending for anyone who has read it, but Trump winds in the end.
In the morning after the election we had this arrangement, he was gonna, call me win or lose for my pre ridden Hilary whence covers door and is credit he did and
trade he considers made part of the left and mainstreaming is a? U guys and laughed and Hilary on their hats found the same trap that Republicans did in the nineties. You believed all your span and you believe,
didn't. Mainstreaming is a? U guys and laughed and Hilary on them.
The same trap that Republicans did in the nineties. You believe
Oh you're span and you believed tromp was objectionable and you never allowed the possibility that people might be attracted to some things at Trump was saying, I think, is right about that.
I think that the big issues were one
economy and the idea that, despite whatever the stock market was at their alot of people being left behind, it wasn't like Trump had policy papers to back this up, but he was clearly speaking these voters
migration was big issue. Me Ben was absolutely convinced that Hilary wanting to
or even beyond, were Obama was in terms of
immigrants to stay in the country, essentially weakening immigration laws even further, just in enraged a group of voters that included people who had voted for Barack Obama, man who in the past would have been democratic voters. I think that it may be the case,
fit trump face plants so hard over the next eighteen months. That Democrats can me
He went back the house without really changing anything, but I think that I know been agrees that there is a structure
real problem underlying all this. The Democrats need to fix something in the party to appeal
beyond the Obama coalition and find
The way to win back some of these
elderly rural voters who once voted democratic but don't anymore now Minetta Day, that's a way to get like beat over the head with a tennis racket by Bernie voters, but I think is right about that eating. That's the lesson that that people I learned from Steventon while figured out how to connect and activate those voters that should rightfully been democratic. What does to push back? I mean the argument that you'd here from some laughed would be. That's a tough grip.
Both to persuade a lot of them are people we lost a long time ago, but there are tens of millions of people who we are naturally inclined to vote
Rapid, didn't turn out, and millions of them could turn out and not have been enough to swing it. One other piece of this in an you wave it off in the book
that's not a criticism. You you're not talking about that, but call me sexism
challenges in the media and all the rest, but not for a series of kind of black swan events. This is the guy that got trump almost there and when I have this conversation right here,
but at the same time this is somebody who got Donald Trump close enough to be president of the
did statement. Is there? Are we
over selling the value of this kind of politics that so many things
to go wrong so many he had to draw this perfect hand for Donald Trump to be elected, or is the lesson the fact that Donald?
was close enough. Then it's very much though the latter I mean it. I mean it's not just on trumped. Look at the Senate Right Democrats were supposed to win back the scent of the cycle that such fair.
Allotment rusty angles and was what happened. You know we hope we have not come to understand.
Look, look up and down the ticket. Look at all the governorship, somewhat Republicans have like thirty six governorship. This isn't just another just lost when yesterday and I think that it is not just the latest counties, isn't just a Donald Trump store like I'm lying around. This is this. Is this is what ban as time there is a structural problem within the Democratic Party that they haven't figured out how to address and one that one of the things that kind of
nerve me. The mouse is the fact that at least from where I sit on it will see this conversation taking place. I expected in the weeks after the election.
That there would be in a running of garments and soul. Searching and big democratic fight sector were back in. You know the mid
eighteen, eighty is on in a what is the path forward, and how do we now and for the most part in part of this is the Trump hogs every media site,
but with his craziness, but for the most part of debate. As happened in his
clear to me that the Democratic Party broadly is
going out a way to attract not just on electoral college majority in a presidential race, but support in now.
Urban places that they're gonna, need to win back a house and Senate majority. That's why I don't think you can just look at the
millions of minorities and millennials, who could have turned out but didn't and say well, if we just activate them, then will be ok, you might be in a presidential race, but
it's a lot more, what they just don't live in a lot of these congressional districts. I feel like one lesson and take away from banning and of the Democratic Party, has sustained
against any kind of exploitation of white resentment, and I don't believe it that's the answer in any way. Don't oh by the way, I'm not! I don't I gotta resided at all, and so when I say that I am not referring to the way in which Steve then approached this. But the fact that this is
Betty who looked at the entire establishment and said you're wrong, that there is another path here and in it in and the fact that it was attacking Republicans
was actually democratic. Dialogue on trade and immigration. There's no rule that says that these voters that we lost a trump Campi gotten back with an agenda that looks nothing like steam. Vat exec in here.
Here is where I think Democrats can learn and take advantage of what Bannon has showed us. The democratic party is the one that has
economic agenda? The does more for middle class work,
class. Lower middle class voters than the Republican Party does in one ironic,
illustration of this is, if you look at what trunk tried to do on health care, had he been successful in repealing the medicate expansion, which was passed with democratic vote and democratic president? He would
hit his own voters harder really than a lot of people. A lot of those people were trump voters. I think Trump voters were over
presented now in the end, in the people, as an auditor kind that law yet and so debt. What what what Democrats need to do
make, a more robust
And here's where I agree with the Bernie folks in more populist economic, populist message to try and reach some
these voters, instead of light resentment, you can appeal to white, but also
other got him a rabbit. I that economic needs and concerns such rights or I'd, say this before, but dont Trump reminded alot of working class people that they were white, we can rind white were in class, and brown working class in black were in class that their working here
One other point: you know a ghost: it goes to the larger issues at that there are many ways: Trump is a symptom of a larger disease. One reason: the medicate expansion applied more to Trump. Voters is because republican governors in southern states, with heavily black populations that could have used medikit expansion didn't get it at one thing I did want to how much of what
talking about here is not to trump how much of this exploitation of resentment is actually a deeper problem inside the Republican Party,
such a lot about this. It was oddly enough before he went into the garden, was Jeff sessions. He pointed its I'd had an interview with him
its included in the book, but it was actually for profound that are banned. A back in twenty two sessions were still centre at the time Stephen Miller was the guy who originally but the poor
he made was that this was the worst people of
were continue that might be, but but he made the point that look, these forces that emerged as Trump ISM,
have been cut roiling in our party for a long time and he should go back and look at George W Bush. Is it
did immigration reform in two thousand and seven. It was by partisan, had Mccain and take Kennedy, but it was stopped because the grassroots kind of inner revolted and stopped it there's always been until
came along. I felt like there's always a lid on that kind of sentiment. It just wasn't allowed to pour into the mainstream of Washington politics in the way that it has since Trump and when we talk about you read the passage from the book about
Tromp essentially smashing the walls and norms. What he did was
to allow that sentiment, kind of calm, flooding, enemy stoked at any
Sas forbid it and Bannon who, before he was trumps guy was a propagandist and filmmaker was very good about how to
you trigger those feelings in those anxieties and exploit them. So I think that that his, unless something is going to be hard to put back in, but to me that is trumps great sin and our politics to have.
Open that Jeannie's bottle- and let all this out just one final point on this: its Jeff sessions who stopped by partisan criminal justice reform it sound cotton who was part of that effort. She stopped from a dozen form. A new now is a proponent of the anti immigration bill that Stephen Miller was yelling, it Jim cost about in the briefing room. So a lot of this is a sentiment.
That's been there under the surface are part of the French that now I will. If I say it is what I call the, but you know so is vice sessions is a guy who kind of gave me this concept of a conservative underworld. We talked in twenty fifteen, who so intimated about bright Barton news. The Times banner was still a terminal bright bar news that use plodding the whole Clinton cash thing and what he said was goes look you.
See this. You, maybe you have in Washington, but I read bright board every day in a ME and Stephen Miller. We call we.
Stories, I know it's having an influence because I Jeff sessions do talk radio all over the country and when I call in from
morning segments the things they ask me about. I know the reading bright broken.
Stories and bright Bart NEWS in this point was that this stuff is being its disseminating, but
The radar of you know Elite Washington, journalists like me, whatever you are and inadequate write about,
what am I now button, but now these people have been elevated from the fringe Emil sessions gadfly in a nobody two years ago in the Senate. But now he
and Miller and Ban, and all these people and the French are in charge of the? U S government, in their able, through the powers, the presidency to implement a lot of these policies.
One last question I want to get to what I believe is the single most important passage of the book, and I wanna before I read this passage. I just want to be clear and
If you confirm- and I can say unequivocal- was not a source for this, but can you can earn you even
because you didn't call me
when you log on to anyone who tries going to tell you that I will read the quote, it says: Obama's writing staff is about the correspondence dinner.
Two thousand and even brought in a ringer the comedian, indirect urgent appetite Apatow to help his most immediately gifted speechwriter Jon Lovett compose a devastating take out of Trump. I just want to
once again say that I'm not the source for that's? Why so many people are yours? I assume your double sort of very serious journaling. Being the most communicative gifted Obama says: Gaga tallest midget we're there how that area have Dario. It is a murderer, Israel on account of comedy speechwriters over their habits area, but this woman,
This is actually a pivotal moment. Trumps story, so you you do you, I think, bear some responsibility for all that has come since by I refuse to accept that everything on it, but
so trumpeting riding high outlets fill in view rapidly evolving of in this. I can I tell the whole story about this
It was riding high, birth or stuff is doing as national tour and he was leading the pause, and then
he decides to come the. Why has correspondence in our twenty eleven Seth Myers? That can be the comedy trump loves the attention he sits in the middle of the room and egg is absolutely
ambushed first by President Obama, in a speech that just absolutely
like mugs trump and robbed him of any shred of dignity, and we turned down and you got hunted all I wanna see I wanna see, but you wrote it with jet appetites. I sell in there's a hand me on, and acts are not right in. Theirs is famous footage of trump cards sitting there reddening in the face, as he's just humiliated raked over the calls by Obama and set Myers comes in and keeps going, and you know it.
Time. Everybody in politics are that's it for tramp. He he is ventured to far in his little pretend
the natural raised to Stoke ratings, will punish or whatever and now he's been smack down. Is gonna go away and that's all we
there stood to happen for like five years
We actually ran when in reality it you know that filled him. I think, with burning
resentment and redouble its efforts to go out there, and he was gonna, try and run, and twenty twelve ban and actually helped him plot of product can paint in the end. He didn't do it, but in a three years later, in TWAIN, Fatiguing comes down the trunk Daryl
escalator in and does it for real and in it
he was driven by resentment at the types of folks. Hoof Harrison go to wait. I live Corazza correspondence than right speeches for yeah. Whatever the he's been seeking the approval and demanding respect of the
it's his entire life. But the one thing he's never been willing to do is have the kind of integrity or sense of purpose or discipline to earn it, and you know tat is
that Psycho continues with him dragging Maggie Haber men into the oval office to get the approval in your times. Yet not why not?
and some lively has to realise he'll never have the respect of the elite and the approval in this now, because of the way he comports himself and conducts himself, but that is
an ongoing psychodrama that I think he's never going to be free, but I also think it's a part of his appeal that that he is for all the wealth and privilege he had his whole life. He want to be part of a club that wouldn't have him and how's that appealing. I know it's a p.
To the kind of people who feel like life is unfair to arise should ensure that appeal and my lady and pointed it gives you a psychological predisposition to have a chip on your shoulder agreements, how's it going grievance against the anti establishment, not that yeah, I guess I'd I'd, why don't we get out of it? I am. This is a fantastic book I really sincerely in.
Sincerely encourage everybody to pick it up and read it. I could talk to you all
about this. It's so interesting, there's so much good stuff on there, but John
Tommy will yell at me for having an hour in twenty five minute episode, and you know look I
the end. I also need an editor too short. My stuff, sawdust out of Stock Joshua, Greece much ram the book is Devils Bargain and divinity
on the board. We have the host
media is pod. Save the people directly cousin to re has gone aids. Kid
you guys have Norton. Whilst that's gonna be back. I know we miss you, it's good to have you, so you
two viewed New York City Mare, build a blaze this week. Would you guys talk about and dear to retire
about you know: we had a fitted into this. I type in a twenty five minute block. We covered rikers, closing rancorous. Why has it taken along? We covered pre came near cities instead of a big expire
and appreciate interesting. We recovered turnstile jumpers, which his response was that it would be interesting if he was response to his response about turnstile jumpers
in them. We covered the marijuana arrest zone,
city has arrested about twenty thousand people for each of the first three years of his administration before
possessing marijuana and we talk about some of the wet behind that limits. The work to come is that an uptake in arrest from
before he was mirrors. That is, that sort of steady
Oh, it's a dramatically less people sumac way less people in Bloomberg, protestant for marijuana because deposit and went to the summons system. So lately it's not technically and arrests, instills interaction with the police by so many fewer people are being arrested a lot if he were still getting summons. I think then this is what I ask him ease what's interesting about isn't, even though they are less people getting arrested
percentage of people of color being arrested is actually the same. So it still at eighty, five percent of the people arrested are still people color, even though its
fewer people being arrested and we talk about likewise, a disparity. Still, there was great
been interesting interview. We interviewed the plaza back in and February Wearin we're in Brooklyn for love of that and lotta people like the interview they had not heard from Europe
but siding New York out her from the Plaza Alot and he said, he's a good interview
interesting. He ran on broken most policing. He ran on universal Riquet. A lot of things he ran on have come to fruition, even if people are really fresher do with him. I do think there's more
to be done with his administration on the criminal justice front. So
to be interesting to see whether a second term looks like if you- and so one of the thing I wanted to ask you about one of it-
stories unseen and outcome right now is about the opium crisis in Ohio, which is obviously one of the hardest hit states, specifically the pieces about how the crisis is, transforming Ohio, criminal justice,
system- you ve, talked about this issue. A lot on positive the people were needed.
Happen on a national level to address this crisis
is a more money. Is it a change in attitude strategy which will take on this?
Is our also energy crises for it to mass by casting wheat
about a to G. Stay. Quick
Surprise. I remember that the war on drugs was be crackdown on crack income is a color during
the nineties in so many people were incarcerated that there was not this pushed to three Opie Lloyd's as a public health crisis, and now there is a push to treaties that public health crises so to your answer,
question specifically like. We should treat this as a public health crisis. Both my parents related to drug state any did be incarcerated. They need a treatment recovery so like that, are we should
The resources it isn't
seemed to see what's happening now, because
The rhetoric increasing. I talk about this, whether rhetoric with regard to
you open. Your aids is is more public health crisis E. In this moment, social, because white people are overdosing and record numbers the rear,
into it at policy level has actually still been really pew
there might be so what's going on
the report. It is a story broke that there is a
prescription, drugs monitoring programme off fifty states, our pride of did you know about this. Now people like eyes, I saw the headline, but I didn't I don't know, but
a misery was the last eat to join in a city there. Tracking people who use a set of prescription drugs
but they say there doing is to monitor whether your doktor shopping and I like whether you have the same prescription from a host of actors, insight that but their lotta people who think that this is actually infringing on hip people who,
ecosystems. Eighteen on even need a warrant, the police. I need a warrant to get like your medical history with regard to prescriptions, and things like that, so there
sponsor. The opium crisis in this moment can actually lead to less protection people. Civil rights, which is an
trusting take on it that, like is not actually breaking through the public space and how does the criminal justice system for transform into more avail?
You know figuring out how to deal with this issue is a public health crisis is opposed to sort of criminal justice,
unlike what are some of the steps in that seen in story about Ohio, that you no law,
enforcements taking our law enforcement could take to address this more as a public health crisis than a criminal justice one he has,
one of the biggest things is literally to offer a treatment to people, so most people need most people who are heavily addicted, need treatment programmes and our residency programs. Like thirty day. Ninety two programmes day programme
or for some people don't don't work for everybody, and things like that
ex anonymous are hugely helpful for a lot of people as well.
What is not helpful is arresting people because they just addicted. So you know it's hard to it's hard for many people to detox when they are in a prison in to get that
The mental health treatment they also need and their letter
also set up a policies and practices that people put in place, thinking that it's actually keeping community safer, but it's nice, like drug free schools zones, is a great example rate. It say
get on the surface and with drug free Schools owns dataset, they criminalize they like increase the penalties for drugs being so within, like a thousand feet of a school
Most arrive in places like everything's within a thousand feet of a school right said that actually, just like it,
dramatically. Increasing the amount of people have arrest and things like that.
So those are the things we know that doesn't work for treatment and access to treatment and a single biggest things. I can actually help people recover
Yes, it is probably not enough funding for treatment programmes right now as well. None the funding
people. Just don't you know, I don't know how many times how many times of Europe you will talk about like live in treatment programmes. You know he asked
not now doesn't breakthrough and like that, you know
in the media units in the news when people go away for thirty days, get treatment and unable to come back to their homes? There's like this
Weird to the public or alliance in the in the media around like a methanol clinics and things like that as being the best sort of treatment, and we know that that actually not the case happy when he met a hub treatment. People like impressed
programmes are day programmes where your possible, but treatment, is really the answer here. That's good well,
everyone check out your interview than with Chris Haze about that for more on this topic on opiate crisis and your interview with buildup, lousy, o plus the p.
Comes out tomorrow, right Tuesday, Tita have excellent. I will well tuned into that, and thanks for seven by core gotta be backs tat you
thanks again to our desperate sedated, judge or green from
burden in the sweet and dynamic Essen for doing it. With great interview with that which, actually, I know you haven't heard a yard, ass was great.
To his hand, his birthday have merely Anna if her normal consumption may have its hold shall hear this in two weeks. I love you.
Sooner or later. We still think that the whole birthday celebration is over one last blast, one last glass, John Fabric of two guns. Seventy
they are giving, I do know, is that now I like doing the trial, I would rather not love it likes, continue the drone until it becomes awkward and then its urges troubled by then we're like tweeting hammock, Dan and of episode.
Transcript generated on 2020-04-02.