This episode is brought to you by better for him a new podcast from eighty people. In each episode Francesca Ramsay talks to visionaries in business leaders about mistakes. They ve made how they work their way through them and came out better for it. Listen on Spotify wherever you get your pot casts from gimlet miserable I'm he gave up and this we're doing a segment. We call super tech support. Super tech support happens when someone is having a problem with your internet and we try to fix it. Today. We are protect supporting a woman named GPS she's accurate our online, usually she most about stuff. Like the ethical questions raised by self driving cars,

the importance of carefully understanding of a legal agreements that you agree to whenever you're updating your itunes does actually as peacekeepers terms, but the It is to make very different. You saying her dog had been kidnapped out by the. How could this be possible? How could the internet steel somebody's die, imessage, message, aid and I ask for we could phone just to find out how this could possibly happened and what what it was a much larger story about how hopelessly impossible it can be for people to communicate regularly, when they're using the internet. The tool that is in serious but to help with communication so the story started: Jades PUG, Schneider, I've seen Bay, he's eleven years old, but he's still her looks like a puppy. He said and gray and cute and jade, of course, loves him He says that he is more emotionally complex than your typical pug. The first time I had to leave them out for an extended period of time. I gave him extra dog treats as I felt so guilty about, leaving him

and when I came home he hadn't eaten any of the battery and he came out of his kennel with a dog treat and gave it to me Schneider can even be mildly psychic when Jane not married and start having kids Schneider. Seem to know the jail was pregnant before either of them dead. He crawled on top Her and my honour stomach jades heads, matters. He was a puppy. He was there before she had kids back when her husband was just her. Boyfriend show thought, you'd have him until he died the that led to Schneider's pug napping started this past summer, jaded just moved from north in its new Jersey with her family. So back a story, I have one of the worst. Summers of my life would happen so shortly after we got here, I'm a strange for my father, but he died, and then we were trying to get somebody

You get his ventures to my grandmother and there is another child from like. Oh one night stand and there was a fight over his body and then a fight over the centuries jade is fighting with this woman who she doesn't really now over her dead, dad's dentures. And at the same time, hermit. Grandparents both have terminal illnesses. Her grandmother has stage liver failure. Her grandfather has and stage heart failure and because kids are sick and jades the oldest, in child. It hurt its ability to really help take care of them And then, on top all that shit been and their two kids have just done this big move for new job, which is good, but the job done. Relocation, expenses, so in the summer, were everything's going wrong. There also broke, and if that's not enough, there's this problem with Schneider. The fold in shiners face often get itchy and how scratches fate by rubbing it against things, but then

one day, Schneider's scratching and somehow catches use of his eye and cuts into it a little bit hot turns into an ulcer and also bursts. It's scary jade cause of that and the vets? Isn't no, no get your dog to an animal hospital and we took him to the animal hospital. They said no, as I have to be removed and it's going to cost five thousand dollars and we just relocated and it was out of pocket location. So we didn't have the five thousand dollars, so I it was like level literally mousing on home at one I m in the morning, because this happen in the middle of the night and I haven't, ask them what would happen if we didn't take care of it and they said it can get infected and he can die. The hospital said that shutters injury was going more dangerous by the hour, so

we're running on a very short clock to figure out what our options were to take care of it, and we were off the trying to get a second thing in this fast and we could. We had called like five beds and nobody could see him for a couple of days ago and wait ok in the midst of all this. I am one of those people that, like that multiple plan, just in case like cleaning up the worst case scenario, so as not to stress fuller, shocking yeah, so I said, maybe reach a book in pure rescue. I know that there are some rescue that can help find you affordable services are happy as best I can help and the absolute oh, my gosh. I don't want this to happen, but I also don't want him to die as we might have to surrender him to a rescue, I think that I didn't know about dog rescues. If they dont is automatically take your dog, you actually have to apply form you have to fill out and you send in a bunch of information and

then do you find out if your dog is eligible to be surrendered. Sony advise her friends jaded just in applied to a dog shelter called curly tail pug rescue. We haven't decided to surrender their dog, it's more like thereupon, the college to make sure that they get em if they wanted to just entails out the forms with such a small thing, for my husband to put his name down as an even ask rejuvenated, didn't ask if there is anybody else who might on the dog? It's just you agreed to just three. We wish this dog shall have one person decides to leg if they think they are in a position where they need to surrender into regular there. Somebody often bob they were just ask. Are you really? Okay, with a thing here with over that that would be amazing the this is a jade, has literally stood in front of a classroom full of students and told them to be very careful about

anything that they sign online. You know we do with social media thing. They signed a contract with me saying. I understand that by participating in the classroom entering illegal agreement with these companies, which is why I know for sure how they seem that surrender form my name would not have been on it, and I think I think it's absolutely crazy that you can give away a dog on the internet with somebody who never meet us, because you are your day one. She paper stringency, because it's just in going out of line and not jade he's not thinking too much about what he's possibly agreeing to. Instead, he vote

this one question that the form ass. There is a saying that says the: why are you giving up the start and then there's two asterisks, and it says please answer honestly and openly as we need this information, so we can play system in a perfect, loving, adopt this family. My husband bless him. He is, I always alone he's too open. What has emerged. Justin writes about how bad things are for the family and that moment he's at his word about his kids. He does Amazon Snyder there are other dog napoleon, has cancer and is how been worsening and just and rights that he's worried about how their kids would react if both of their dogs died. Somebody from the shelter immediately knows back asking for patients of Schneider suggests take some pictures. Your emails, asking adjusting, can meet a shelter volunteer at a cracker barrel, an hour and a half away, and somehow very suddenly, jaded Justin's backup plan has become their actual van

One I'm sorry morning, they'd been at the hospital, and now it's afternoon and their packing Schneider up into the car, with his toys and his house, and only then the jade realises. Oh we're really doing us. We're surrendering our park but then there are the cracker barrel and they're, giving him over to different rescue that the first rescued recommended, because this differ, Rescue has really good, especially now, and they hand their dogs. This woman named Cathy, and it's done Schneider's God. Two days later, just sent an email asking how Schneider's doing and they get back a really great news. They said just then. I took him to the ice specialist yesterday and the eye is getting better every day. There is no need for the EU to be removed. I just have to keep putting. I dropped everyday for the rest of his life. He is a very freedom, loving pug. He was such a good boy, the eyes and then to my bet, to get rabies and hard work tests negative, which is amazing because they can afford a fire

our eye surgery for their bug, but they can definitely afford. I dropped for their pig, and it's only been a few days so as is the shelter doesn't mind giving their dieback shiner can come back home. My husband wrote back. I hate to be like this, but it that's the case. Is there any way we can get him back? We weren't listen to pay for a surgery which the bad assured us needed to be done, but we certainly can manage to give him a job every day. Please he's been a part of our family for ten years and giving him up was the hardest thing you ever think of doing. Please let me know I'm sorry, but how they respond to that. Just then. I'm sorry, I note with a very hard the system for you to make, but how had a meet and greet on Sunday and is going to his forever home tonight. You will be with another dog and a mom and a dad he's going to a great home take care. My husband wrote back where a great home he's our family. We gave him up to to save, to try to save his life, but it turned out. We just went to the wrong button emergency we're losing a member of our family because we got told

by that. Why can't we fix us for the reason, just in so adamant about turning its matter back is because of his kids. Their sons is eight and struggles with clinical depression when he gets upset. It's hard for me to communicate with. Bob and so he'll reliance niner. He will just be a ball borrowing and he won't want me around. You won't want my husband around you want one his brother round, but he will ask for the dogs, and so I was worried about how he was going to react to others. I was sort of panic you. I called the woman to try to explain the situation and she hung about me. To be fly back and forth. Embracing the shelter right, tell just and jade to stop pine and to stop you, knowing their done me just right back Please just don't give a damn. Let us at least see if we leave options first and then they get this other. It's an angle,

it's from a man who says that he's a lawyer, but that he's not officially representing either the two shatters he does a. He knows them lawyer rights to tell them. They have no legal right to shatter the dog that for eleven years they ve thought of his there's. There's lots of all cap animals, their property by law, and you transferred ownership plain and simple once again, all in all our tracks, the personal problems you outlined, while funding, while I, while sounding quite overwhelming, are of no bearing on I think you were matter were than reads out: how is it possible to work in a tone to jail feel pretty condescending? How about this example? You had a twenty dollar gold piece or a dog that you don't need it to a turn of organ donation. Thinking was where twenty dollars or a lot of money to take care of, but after you donated it, princesses surrendered it. When appraised.

The organisation in parentheses, taken to have examined it was found to be very rare and actually worth thousands in parentheses are, would have only cost you a very little to care for now, just because you are mistaken, ass to the actual value in parentheses or cost you a bit of donation. Surrender- and this is an all caps- it does not mean you get it back. No one coerced you are tricked you just and on his own, rescue organization and knew what it meant to surrender the animal feed the logic and the lack of legal claim. I doubt it, but that's the way this plays out at sad that you now regret your perhaps just Justin's hasty decision, but you still have no legal basis for recovery. Since I'm sure you still disagree Souffre term, but don't be surprised by negative outcome how'd, you feel when you know that I was angry. Did you see the difference between you, dog and clean

when I think most people do awake at sort of like a dog to claim. Yes, let them have led to use another example of the lake so its property, so you have a dog and a bracelet. Besides a paper bracelet, it's really nice briefly go if I like the bracelet on fire, it's ok, but if I like a dog, I'm here that the legal are not the same thing. What do you think is going on here, though? You can't be that Croatia Devilled runs the progress you like You know I mean look at that way. I mean that's a lovely thought, but at this point I wouldn't be surprised. Shelter looks like cruel. Deville is because that's the story that their paper trail is telling you in just have said one thing over and over. We asked you for but it turns out, we don't need it. Please give us back her dog, I return, they heard a litany.

Contradictory things. None of them, particularly reassuring you dog, is in peril. He'd August fine, you dont can't be given back your dog is a coin. You dog is property, but it's not your property. Stop calling us J D to a lawyer who tells her, She can't afford legal help and you know there's nothing to say to the people. The shelter sewing you can do, is try to adjust to this new reality. Were the internet's taken. Her dog and you can go online boast about it. She asked she's managing when she lost who, once when her with who likes to play with this app called Autorap that lets you make auto tune, rap songs, made this song about how he engaged omission, either

while by Israel of these has more than this using mommy. Mrs Schneider and I shall miss you well well, nobody noticed Ashley sooner than I listen. Listen, but at this point really frustrated, and I went to the door and who go to am frustrated out. Scoldin see you wanna go get these guys. I want, but I would say, I want to find out that they're just well meaning people who did something bad, like didn't, handle something sensitively yeah. But I, if also they're like a shady Blake me now puppy, store or whatever, like I'd like to know that too, and if it why one solved is a lot harder than just telling people to restart their computers. Oh, I know I'd love to hear how do you feel about it?

well, you wanna hand this after me. I think not because this is harder than restarting their computers, but because you know that like a sense of fairness. My sense that the world should be fair is like Miss calibrated to the point where, like I'm fear, whenever something doesn't happen exactly the way it supposed to younger. Also, very good at lake There is a point where you are sending your rent to an escrow account for like seven months, because you're a dispute with your landlord. I am persistent, I just you have a sense of like I have a sense of outrage, but I also have a very short attention span to my Bidwell. Instead, I forgot about it but, like you, will Is it to the end of the earth? Ok. Well, let's get to work

after the break? I step in and train entangled dismiss. This episode is brought you buy better for it, a new podcast from eighty peak hosted by Francesca Ramsay. We all make mistakes better for It looks at how mistakes have shaped the lives and careers of visionaries and business leaders and helps them think differently about what their working forty you'll hear from an entrepreneur who ventured out autism, and so I went out and took seven hundred dollars. I had in the bank, but my own pickup truck, took some flyers business cards and later I had a business and in each hour, rule breaker whose learn while we all care about work in the first place, you are proud of the work.

You want to be able to tell your friends about it. You want to be able to feel like you're, making a different you'll hear how they work their way through their mistakes and came out better for him. Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the show. So once PDA put me on the case of jades missing pug I dug in and the first thing I, It is just to confirm that these two dog rescues the jaded made contact with world jet and not some fly by night, pug napping resale outlets and they're both real rescues. I saw the tax documents next I tried calling Kathy the woman who rescue called had surrender their dog to I was a rescue, can help eggs unlimited give shelter. I was home, she could help me understand what was going on? I left Cathy, a bunch of message. Center, a ton of emails, but she was a total brick wall, no response,

and I couldn't figure out why she would stonewall. So my last step was to try and reach out to the original Ugh rescue the Jane Justin contacted the one who's surrender form they filled out. It's called curly tail pug rescue mission, there's intake coordinator, sent me some terse and annoyed emails. She just exhausted by this entire. When a discussion at one point, utopias, beating a dead horse, I went back into the studio and red PJ's, some of the emails from the shelter folks, they're saying like look you. The deal you sign an agreement. Those are the rules and we can bring for anybody. I hate people say those are the rules because, like will change the rules, so you may the rules. I felt like swimming in circles, but remember nothing, if not persistent and final, after weeks of emailing I was able to. Meet someone who could actually answer some questions. For me, high is this area yet figures this is Alex Goldman. How are you going to guy? This? Is Peters the director of curly tail

the rescue whose surrender form just in filled out and right away, just wanted to know if drear empathize, with jaded Justin, they are they really loved this dog. This was obviously a very difficult thing for them to surrender the dog. I mean, Do you feel that from jade unjust and who had to give the dog listen if we can help usually rescue group, how someone really care about their animal is going through a heartbreaking decision and people who are real, flippin, their animal or and earn, and that's not the case with China for family. They actually had a difficult time with that.

They are going through a lot, however, in the unfortunately, when in a people allow their motion to take control is very hard for healthy and constructed communicating to continue, because there are a lot of creating keep allowed there and rescued all operate on a shoe stirring and though Cathy I guarantee she's. One of the three women would just be boring track for organization. Really. None of us have a big financial backing. We rely on support from our donors to keep going, though, if there is some one that was maybe argumentative or threatening various things which I know what is happening in this case You basically have to cut them off. There's no point in engaging are continuing. Communication can only hurt the rescue and there it is remembering jades husband, just en route that thing in his email asking Cathy, not

put the dog and a permanent home until they could explore legal options. Those words legal options were all it took Cathy completely shut down and hears. Why. They told me about a case that happened last year in Long Island up was found, wandering dehydrated enemies. He added and was taken in by drains rescue and then drew. I heard from a woman named Patty and she was angry. Patty Army of Holbrooke is battling for Barbara her sixteen year old pug, who she says, got out of her back yard and was turned over to a pug rescue group. I love my punk and I want him back, but the group Curly tale rescue is accusing our mine of neglecting Bubba. The accused me of now. My dog. They accuse me of starving my dog. These people, a coup on you can hear upset this woman patios, but dressed as that in trying to save the dogs life and do it by the book. They pull

Do this confusing morass. We had absolutely no proof or documentation, provided that this even wasn't the owner of the picture of the animal that would ensure from the owner look nothing like the animal and our care, and it became an excruciating legal case. The major drain on the organisation that also that is in the end, dress organization was cleared of any wrongdoing. The dog was placed in a good home, but the experience took a huge tall. Their rescue as well as their fundraising ground, to a halt? their volunteers was even arrested for a minute to drag. The whole thing was a total nightmare. She said This is what Cathy must have had on her mind when she read the words legal options and just in Gmail and that's why when Schneider's condition worsened. She didn't get in touch with,

must have enjoyed his eye. Treatment didn't work, which is what we were all afraid up and he did need to have his eye. You Luke waited the nuclear did means removed. Schneider did have to have as I take, the regional treatment and plan of action did come here, even despite our better, though. What that point either happy help. Opening one. I don T know that extra money and dogs point, but a lot of the confusion comes from initial e mail that Kathy Sinnott, which just said Schneider just needs. I drugs for the rest of his life. Honestly that I have a blue, wouldn't have even had a conversation because it gets I hope that in a highly emotionally charged situation, read what usually way to have more fine on information and then communicate in each case. If there is any at this point, the conversation I started to see this whole thing differently and

put myself in having issues The person who negotiated the dog surrender befriended then I just got adorable dog, with an injured, I that could kill it and I want, It's like and then I realized that it will need surgery so why wouldn't? I want to share that Good news. Hang out with a hundred percent while intending run but then usually what get in trouble as rescuers, but like all, we think I'm delivering you good new, he doesn't need a horrible burgeoning, but unfortunately, that would end up fighting ass is

bringing were being on them all at an even go now, with a wild card dug up. All your king went on the other side of the line, really, even if I want they want, am I volunteered made an egg and communicated prematurely, even if that happens it shade had communicated appropriately. I got believe it would affect belated whitefoot, the merely okay, so yeah, this all escalated pretty severely. Cathy actually kept Schneider back from the family had been placed with because of this. Legal action, but this is the point where started get hopeful about this whole mass, because I could see how it can all get fixed. I knew it. Occasion had broken down. I'd reestablished contact. Schneider was healthy again and he would I

be happier back with didn't Justin. So could you just go back home yet I can. I can easily answer the ok. Absolutely not in his happiness is not the only thing at stake here. Get well you're thing. Of course she be happier with family than being re home rule clean. That's not a question of the end of the day we are rescue. People were rent cured innovation. We are not charities. People were charity and here's the thing says: drear pugs are a totally unique problem. They have been bred over generations, have huge eyes, tiny tales, little legs all which make them much cuter to people, but I'm a host of medical issues trouble breathing. NI problems? I authors their bodies are. Instantly threatening to break down and The owners are unprepared to take care of these issues when they arise. So winds. And Cathy receive these dogs. It can.

Getting soldiers off the battlefield. They need to be stabilized The rescues are so focused on that one job that they simply cannot engage all of the personal circumstances of the families who are surrendering the dogs and if you given her one animal back, because you think God happier Orkut owners or pay for medical care, how do you define I'm gonna? Do it for this not the other. To me, Jane Justin seem a great owners, but when drain looks at the surrender form the just inside the former he poured his heart out. She's is ahead, it looks to key on it to take good care of this dog, even though they had trying Times Schneider that they and we didn't talk about finding alternatives. They didn't get a second opinion and even though their child has a negative oppression and it's very attached to their dog, they didn't try, firing every possible alternative to survive

I talked to drive for an hour several arguments for why Schneider should come home, but I was we are convinced her. It seemed the air that Schneider's not going home to jaded Justin, but drab really did strike me as a good carrying person. She cares about. This and their family and she feels for jade, and Extended an olive branch why, unless an internationally in iraqi kurdistan- and I mean as fairly as I do from the gecko error- the way I can somehow her by an owner might be happy even act. The potential go between defend her, an update and kick certain things anything I know that she had gone through extenuating detail in Europe. No wife, and if there's anything I can do to help my total one. I was never able to get coffee on the phone, but I did get a glimpse of how she felt about this whole thing,

One point she accidently see see me on an email that she meant to two Dreyer in it. She thanked Ray. For all the help we Schneider he goes on to say. All we want is what's best for you, And I get angina, ash hygiene. So, a few days later, I called J D give her the news about Schneider. I wasn't looking de telling her that we couldn't get her dog back and that try to what she believed. He wasn't with a family whose, with Kathy Indeed he had his I removed. In fact, Lake die drugs didn't work and he did and feeding the surgery. Ok, which is much needed. Then the email exactly, and so they sent that email and basely. From their perspective, what happened was like they sent the email and she's like she she's just like out she's, like she's one person who I think is kind of when, when you're let me go back and just act like you know, just like, please don't give the dog away. We wanted to tell this for,

while can or legal options. She got terrified that gonna get sued and basically just like went to ground totally out of fear. I think. Ok, I mean. If the lines of communication have been open and she had said, I have misinformed you and make said here the emperor for the doktor anything and it would have. Avoided a lot of this so I mean I do understand, being scared and I think he needed the surgery, so he was in a position where we wouldn't be able to. We wouldn't have been able to do anything, so he was where he needed to be But the emotional turmoil on both and seems like it was unnecessary, yeah sure just disregard that the huge

is experiencing an emotional loss things a little bit crazy? Of course it does particularly if you are that human experiencing that national ass. I tried to explain: drain and caddies worldview to Jane how to them the entire boy, we are doing, is only for the dogs benefit. Saving those dogs is the mission that drain cat have taken on in its really difficult mission and Jade completely understood that she just also Willie disagreed with it. Things the whole reason that people care about pugs is because of human feelings. Let's toto either weird imaginary relationship of mutual, while that just sort of so, where part of your life and sordid magical, which is weird I feel, like you guys are so closely.

You see this and also so far away. I thank you and the horrible so many ways like. I truly do that's the truth. I do, but I am not completely hopeless and I feel like the stance that they're taking as a hopeless one June Is my family had a bad year, but things are getting better and the shelter people just won't. Let themselves see that, but there's something away their thinking about the dogs and the people on the way there talking about the dogma, people that was drive, you are deserving of being a part of this animals life so clearly It is still hurting, but she's also come to accept the manders gone, had that her families actually adjusted in a really surprising way. Schneider has, com a trickster because at present

Reality from now, when things are missing from the house, the boy say: maybe Schneider took it to its very cute, you know occasionally voice here that we want Schneider back and I think when we The first interview I was at the point where, if he can come home, maybe if he come from it will be ok. But mean I've bounded with dogs. So I also understand even many diskiver dog when you first have the idea that Russia of Oxytocin and all about other wonderful stuff that dogs do able bitterly cold. My dogs, my many oxytocin factory, and I wouldn't want to take that away from somebody like a few of these happy at sign. I feel like we feel the man you didn't tell me.

You didn't tell me: I'm really really really really ecstatic that he was somewhere that was able to take care of him. Yes, that way. We will render them in the first place. They said they would be able to do that. They did. Would you want? I mean Dreyer said that she can. She came pictures and updates of shire. Would that be? How for unhelpful might be unhelpful. So it's something I will need to think about. Just because right now we have we went and the lack of communication cider gets to be like this pugsy ain't over the family and if he did I'm real again. He becomes real again and I dont know without any help or not at this point here, yeah U S have actually made a good, I mean the best thing would be

him, but you have done a good job of making a good, imaginary relationship pigments. Thank you. Thank you. And now the imaginary relationship gets to the wind with him being happy for the rest of his life. We will keep going and torture. And the world can be full of rainbow pug and we great what a rainbow bugs it's like when you close your eyes. An you dream that year n Elisa Frank caning as full pugs. That's what happened when I closed my eyes, what the little Schneider he's happy, and I imagine him like a happy and looking like a pirate. Also, I think Had this fantasy, where I was gonna call you I'd like I've, got an update outside your house in a motorcycle and there's a loss of strategy like really go also had an imaginary relationship which later you hide

really do that's wonderful! Thank you, for you did help. You opened up the line of communication. That was, So that we know what happened and that really bad there's not a price that I can put on that like the twenty dollar gold coin. The lawyer found in the street at least every one villain in the store. Yes, there is a real, don't worry, I'm sorry stuff so hard and really I promises that happen. I just email a bit more yeah, that's actually the other villain like emails, a villain in this story, because there was no. There is no phone conversation many others that it was all just us now, unlike

terms of service agreements like the least humane ways, people talk to each other. Are you an Italian, your kids. Now, when their older yeah, it still going to be the great pack ice of twenty fifteen, I that is, He has need, like a commission portrait, I'd like a very regal line. Where maybe he's like looks pirate, even he looks like and in a very noble, unlike beneficence, looking over or it could be done and silently the Frank with rainbows. Yes, a rainbow pirate deviations. Ok, bye, bye, one last thing

jade. If your hearing this we got you a small present, it is waiting for you at Rainbow Pugs that limo requires hosted by PDA vote and me Alex Goldman we're producers. By TIM Howard Treaty, tip in any and few benefits are editors. Peter clowning happy birthday Peter production assistance from Cleveland thought. We were mixed by required Special thanks to male young are free music, by the mysterious break master cylinder and are add music is by build buildings, matters, is a rope swing over a pond. You can find we're episode, Itunes, dot com, slash reply, all our website, reply all that soy thanks for listening, we'll see next week.