This week, one man has been warning the world about an impending disaster for years, but no one will listen. Also, Alex makes a dumb decision.
W3C's proposed standard
W3C Director, Tim Berners-Lee, posts "On EME in HTML5"
Mozilla's blog post "DRM and the Challenge of Serving Users"
Cory Doctorow's post "The World Wide Web Consortium at a Crossroads: Arms-Dealers or Standards-Setters?"
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by better for him a new podcast from eighty people. In each episode Francesca Ramsay talks to visionaries in business leaders about mistakes. They ve made how they work their way through them and came out better for
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from give it. This is reply. I am outspoken and I'm deliver this week. We abandon
replied producer she's in the studio with us, Haifa, high and down
what are you up for us yet laid on us? So I don't know if you guys remember this by last spring
Bosman Labour Lieber went to a dinner and sat next to the sky, who told him that this
thing was about to happen. That was going to change civilization. As we know it. Do you remember that
I don't remember that Matt were goes.
Allow dinners arise like, but we like
Willie warriors you value like I was at this dinner. I talked to her a very, very unique man from a very far
replace you'll, be very troubling thing like the details change but like Ray the mangoes like dinners with thought leaders,
does it interferes with chicken little every night. The ashes like this guy is vile. I'm not I'm not so I called up this guy. That met was sitting there.
At that dinner, his name is Corey Doktor. Oh yeah he's a we're.
I hear it's not also. He writes Heinz fiction of science fiction. I was like he does boiling Susana Internet Journalism staff basically like if, if the internet
we're a bar Corey would be like a regular at the internet. Yacu Billy,
Prs, everybody knew in kind of admired right right
unlike the problem for him right now, is that he is like the guy at the bar who keeps going up to people and trying to talk to them, and
like avoiding him because
because you're drunk, but about because he keeps righted, tell people about this thing like
thing he told Matt Lieber about, but it's just like people keep finding it like so complicated and technical
it's one of those things. That is some amazing
important and also protected by this shared shield of boring ness that keeps its remit from being you know, understood and and acted on in his is that cut is in that category of like fantastic leading.
For us things because its supervision and really hard to get your head around, but I've been trying to clarify.
Almost a year now about this, just like trying
understand it ask you bunch of internet experts about it and
Now, I'm gonna try and take like everything. I've learned and compressing- and probably some
if I had a little bit but explain it to you and a trying to link ten minutes ogre ogre so Koreas, like locked in this battle. That I mean really is.
Literally just about how we watch video on the internet and Corey says that the stakes for this, like could not be higher lake, if the bad guys when it could have catastrophic consequences for the internet through the burghers. So the thing is that the bad guys for carried there actually,
really good guys. All they're trying to do is make sure that the internet can we ran like as smoothly as possible,
like everyone in the world and their this group called the w three c. It stands for the world wide web consortium,
I had never heard of it either not unlike their whole job is that they are trying to create like
one language for the internet, so that, like my computer, can talk to your computer. I talked to one member
it seems Adrian Bateman and he told me like how they spend their time. We
we agree on like. Is it called picture, or is it called image in in the HTML language, which is the language
of web pages, we actually use- I am GS, an abbreviation for image, says so part of what the dummy through seat, as is you guys, like the Webster's dictionary saying like we spell color
with a u or without a you,
and then you are also doing leg that this is a sentence structure. This is grammar this his leg, here's how we define the building blocks and here's what they are. Yes, so that's an example of the kind
The thing that the four hundred some members of the double three see are working on and arguing about. I talked to another guy, whose name is also
grim he's Adrian Roselli and he said a lot of those debates happen on conference calls either calls fun like the whole thing.
If somebody gives minutes, we have an agenda, we run through everything we table stuff. We
we missed the ball and other things and put him off to the next meeting. Some calls are great and some
this is just a slug- it's just I don't wanna be here if I could be driving of
screwdriver under my name, but instead Amandas call wow that sounds like you should hang up is revealed link that that's really bad, so, ok. Now I want to tell you about this. One little fix that the w three c is considering that Corey things could actually
You like the end of everything, so you know how like in the past, when you want
to watch a video on line. If you wanna twice like a movie on Netflix, sometimes it would be like
gray, scream, you need to update your silver relate. Yes, there's the beta musicians cannot actually now voices Amazon, Amazon Cards, like Microsoft, silver light needs to update.
Which is crazy because I dont know what it does.
Let me again annoying bribe like a thing for them not for me, and it is constant yet like constant kindly that like multiple times, not only my life, but this year,
I bought a movie or a television show online run into some
like a silver light update and then pirated at because I felt like I do
wanna go through whatever crap you want to put on my computer. I dont want I'm happy to have paid for it yeah, but, like I'm, not gonna, I dont want your weird invasive crap, which
reasonable and more which I mean the funny thing about so relate as it is a way for you to watch videos online, but the actual intention is to
wrap up the movies and away where, like they are protected and secure and people can't steal them. It's this thinking.
DE. I am, I know, dear em, it stands for Digital
rights, management- and it's like a thing that basically
being a internet companies have been doing to try and keep people from copying stuff, so a lot of
be will only allow you to make one or two copies of it before it stops letting you make more copies. Ah
There are certain cds that,
they make it hard for you to actually pull music off of right so, like the whole purpose of it is just like stop you from pirating stuff, which
working, certainly isn't really working for you. So the Debbie Theses leg, you sick of updating silver light, your sick of updating, flash, we ve
great news. We have this new dear em and we're gonna put it directly into your brow,
Sir you're? Never gonna have to worry about updating flash again, but here's the catch is kind of a big catch, which is it's gonna, be everywhere. It's gonna be in
every phone in every computer, and if you imagine your computer colleague your house, it's like em
house is going to have the same kind of lock on the front door and they're saying it's going to be the best like it's going to be like super suit
have all the dead bolts. You wine, like the perfect lock, which, if they're right, is like fantastic but Corey, says if they're wrong,
we're not gonna, know that they're wrong, because outside security experts like they can't look at this thing, it's like the big plan to protect this lack is just like. Don't look at the lock, don't try to
up up up up up Ben, like your does not allowed to will basically because there's this copyright law. That actually says like security researchers,
are not allowed to get anywhere near locks like this one. That does feel as bad as he thinks it is. Obviously, yeah
He says this is a real law and it's been enforced before so. There was this programmer name named. Failure of who work for company called outcome, soft, whose russian and he came to America
to give up presentation at attack conference about Adobe's E book reader and Adobe
had made this epoch reader at that promise that
wouldn't be able to copy the text and d,
we found that it was made very, very badly, and so he did what security researchers always do when they find a bug in
software that is allegedly secure, which is that they disclose it. He went on stage at this conference
and he told people leg peers as far and the FBI arrested him. Why?
TAT. The FBI arrested him for copyright infringement. Yet, basically- and yet
going to jail at that and so ridiculous. He struck a deal with the feds and went back to Russia when I went for
the paper I presented at a college symposium, the area and Cory's Eddie. You is actually add, Demetrius release. Finally, what does he like? He was? He was a kid
russian guy he was a nerd. He was a programmer like all the programmers. I knew you didn't. He wasn't me. Oh, he was just this guy who hint at children
I wanted to get the hell I'll go back.
Russia so Cory's like what, if they decide to do,
the same thing now with this encrypted video player thing like what, if they decide to try to
rest. Anyone whose pointing out a problem with that, but he told me like an
one of our many covers
that we had over the last year. The security people are really freaked out about this.
Lots of people around the world who discovered a badge and sullen two governments threat they weapon eyes and then they seldom to governments instead of reporting on Tuesday and to their company.
Publishing them to the public,
really bad teeth. I urge you know you might be able to choose controlled a whole computer, or maybe you can just take over the browser, in which case you can do things like log credit card numbers and turn on a camera, maybe depending on how the browser and the camera are interacting with each other at the browser.
Location access. You can get bad. If that you can get past,
you can do all kinds of things,
there any reason to fight for this cause. What
ascribing, is like a portal that
We were going to be attacking that no one,
loud to look at, and I can't Anderson
and why this is better than the current system.
Ray, and you know it's not the sort of thing that the W
we see would normally support like this is the first time that their recommending a standard,
new internet code that nobody would be allowed to look at. But
we as a theory about why the w three c is considering this and it has to do
new members that joined in the last few years, members like Netflix in Youtube and via com
giant media companies who forever have not liked the the wide openness of the web and have been calling since the webs
rules on how the web works, to make their business models more viable, see an opportunity,
which is to say an opportunity to add dear em, to things like remembered Durham, is that little piece of encryption that
apps users from messing with their pirating thing, so Netflix shows up the doubly three c and says we would really like d artagnan browsers and then strongly implies that in the Alps
the alarm browsers. There will be no Netflix and browsers and Netflix as a thing
that a lot of people are
Vince they need in order to have a viable product. We just we have to play ball with Netflix
Netflix feel so strongly about this that there actually helping to make the lock that the w three c as suggesting everybody use like Netflix in Google and Microsoft. That's whose raining it with, which is crazy, because they're all things like we're, gonna build this is gonna, be
it's going to replace all the crap. They exist right now, the crab his silver light. Microsoft made Silverlake re like. Why would the perfect thing that's?
crazy yeah? I know and like the whole time I'm trying to learn about this. I just really wanted to get the perspective of the media companies and you know I reach out to like Netflix in you
You been the motion Picture Association and nobody wanted to talk to me, but one group that did get back
We was Mozilla who makes Firefox web the browsers yeah. So there particularly interesting to me
is like in the middle of this fight. There's like on the one side. There is like the users like us who are just like watching movies,
and then, on the other side, there is like the media companies who are providing movies and Mozilla they're, just like a platform in the middle of it. All
how to get along with everybody, yeah they're trying to keep like everybody happy and that's kind of their role, but its put them in this very difficult position, so attack this woman named.
Nl Dixon, her title Mozilla is chiefly volume, business officer
and she told me that, even though Mozilla freely does not like this lock thing,
It makes a lot of sense to her. Why companies like Netflix would content owners, the ones that produce this content, that is its their content, is copyrighted
its content, that they respect creative energy putting together and they should be able to monetizing content and to protect that content from being in their mind.
Being distributed in ways that they don't authorize. We actually, as Mozilla, think that that's true
like their content, odors and they should be able to protect it, but there are other ways to go about protecting the content
Mozilla would like any other option besides this one, because on top of
everything else. What their company stands for is openness and transparency, for example, fire Fox is, is like famously the open source browser right, but
at some point they realize like they can either go along with this or die. So it was a really have decision and it was one we didn't take lightly
We recognised that this is. This is hostile to users. The locking system is hostile to the users. From the standpoint of you know, in our browser you put this closer,
component in there. That's getting information and data about your devices and we also
all about transparency, and that was the problem for us. But after a lot of debate, they decided ok, we'll put it in. Does I mean there's code in Firefox that Mozilla can't look at like the that you can't look at
right, so this is we, so we can't get into the Black Box in the direction of the of the locking system either doesn't feel kind of weird
Yeah I mean this is hardly the talents that we had its that here's the going to give you the really simple perspective on this. If we didn't, if we chose not to put this locking system black pocket or not into our code, then we obviously our users would go to other browsers because they need to be able to. They want to be able to watch this content, meaning if you want to change things and you can't watch it on Firefox, you're gonna go somewhere else and so now cause they agreed to. This Firefox has this little piece of code inside of it that is encrypted. There must rapidly nuts, but all I care about you, I mean she said it felt really bad. She said like a lot like it was sad
her sad it. That is like the thing that to me help me understand the bigness of this, because the internet, as it's always existed, has been this thing that, like the architecture, you can all you.
Always see the beams that held it up, and if it's you,
like there was any one that was weak and any any particular way. Ah other people, I would point out that weakness and help fix it welded back together and now it feels like video, which is now a huge part of the architecture of the internet, if it, if that is no longer visible like it just seems like it's like a fundamental shift to me. Yes, I think it's a really big deal. So what what? What is gonna have like what happens now so Corey says he's gonna keep fighting this
he is not stopping he's collected the coalition of people who are all fighting with him and like at this point. They ve been finding this for three years now there just doing everything they can to make it as difficult as possible, for
The w three c to make this, like the law of the land,
and like a universe
while standard, but what's the leg? Is there like a showdown point during me? Yes, so they ve been like gearing up for a vote like between W three c members, and they ve been thinking that we will probably happened like April first awe and I thought thats, where things stood like that's.
What I was expecting to tell you today and then when I was like when we were all
during the come in and I was going to explain all this you actually right before I came in this huge thing happened, which is that the director of the W three c
posted a blog post, saying leg. He
has an opinion on this he's Wang in and what he said. Was this thing that Corey hates you said the w three c should go through with it, so I emailed Corrie and he was leg. I saw
this and I immediately sent an email out to the head of the double three c saying like our
still gonna have a vote. We,
I always have a vote and
hasn't heard back while so that's where
stands right now. That's intense! So, of course, like I'm gonna stay in touch with glory
I agree watching what's going on, and I will tell you guys
as soon as I know anything else
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Welcome back to the show Alex? Yes,
I've been thinking about something very
I've been theme is only lately, ok, but only down from cellphone what about
basically since down from elected president. I keep seeing the
computer security experts online, who I follow, who are really upset because as one
aerospace, everything contained from his doing, which is that when he tweets he'll, often tweet from his,
own and his phone is just like a crappy old, Samsung Galaxy
not like us special secure president phone and they think
he's, a specialty here present from right, and this is not a thing that I found
like of all things in the world to worry about. I didn't you
about this, but then last week I saw his piece by piece.
Rayner and he just wanna ride out like how easy-
to hack of only does, and what can you do if you, if you do have at so three bought this software off the internet, which let him have his own phone, which he said, look like a man and then he gave one of his friends access to it like basal, you want to find out what could he learned by intentionally hacking himself
and I thought that was really interesting experiment, but I thought you'd be more
you're saying if I could find someone who would let me have therefore
yes. Can I really absolutely I really thought you're gonna be resistant to this. I have nothing to hide from you. That's amazing, suit
It's ok! You will do this year totally
do, you have any do. I'm curious lake given.
If I think about it for long enough, don't you you have to think about it sure by
bout it for long enough, don't like you have to think about it, I'm not sure, but, like I really for
or where you know you know, Aladdin five of the dark recesses of my soul. Not only that lake
You're somebody who are we like,
I organised like what how do I get into such you? You ve, given me your email password Irene
remember. I bet you given at me. I think like six times, I get the sense that just like your password for everything european,
I question there is a Google back that is accessible to everyone.
River boiled doesn't forever difficult, where's link for me like
I feel it now
oh, if somewhere to get into my information, they would find law. But I just have lake.
I don't have it means I'm like more disable burthen, you probably black eyes.
Like a basic medium anxiety like if somebody just grab
my computer, I have a heart attack
in my mind I'm just like that is my open brain. Unlike our
what you're gonna see in whatever contacts you're gonna put it in you. Don't do you have that
had generally no thank you just say everything now
to really when it is everything that I think just pours out of my mouth. Unfortunately
and that's why I'm so annoying to you the answer to that
so I think that it did not seem like it would be pretty worth. It'll save Alex in this moment. Was that
his understanding of what he's agreeing to and my understand what is agreeing to are super different he's. Ok, with the idea that I might have, the ability to like red has emails, but this vice reporter Joseph Cox. When he talked for these current it sounded so much worse than what our
was actually imagining. We were talking about at the Pike S work. We are talking about trying to do a version of the experiment. You did the only difference. Being I talk to my,
host and convinced him to allow me to spy on him and he
I am not sure he completely understands the capabilities of the technology always going for. You know, he's yours,
yeah whatever I don't care, if you re my email,
I mean you really going to do it for
twenty four hours, forty eight hours, because I mean I'm dedicated to my job. I honestly do the one week, seven days,
oh, my god, I'm sorry my mind- is responding to genuine cybersecurity mode. Yeah he's gonna get
Shock, definite and one's I'm in their like once I've hacked into. What do? I have access to?
You have access to pretty much everything that this person would be.
Using the device for if they make a phone call
you get an email with true they cooled when an audio drive off the phone call, the gps tracking is us
enabled. At the same time, you can easily see where they were when they made that cool
that is so strong that if it really fucked up, measures have taught for fifteen minutes. You're not gonna, hear those that human,
but in them he introduced me to a laundry list of things that a person with
bad intentions could do to another person's phone if they had access to it. I M excited you, try it
all of those things in the next week about Omens life, the phone.
You're late today, we plan to start recur,
Our experiment tomorrow March, second, at three p m- I marry cited we
have the results for you and upcoming episode, asshole man, you have been warned.
Profiles hosted by me, Peter vote now. Goldman are shows Bruce by
Fourthly, pin mini via Bannon Kali Proceed,
and dominant Omar Caddy, we're edited
by TIM Howard and Jorge just we're mixed by Writ Kwan
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is by Madam Chancellor
checking by Michel Harris Special. They
We too motherboard. They are also doing episode about spyware for their new podcast plus plus. I gasped check that out
actual thanks to MIKE Mass neck. Chris Adams marked Gilbert and cozy doktor out. All
if you're going to be at Texas for south by southwest me and Alex, are going to be appearing at the Dropbox podcast studio on Sunday March 12th and
for a job.
Is hiring right now we are looking for great salespeople to help solve the ads on our progress can get more information at gimlet media dot, com, slash careers. Also,
One final note on this episode: Mozilla, who appeared in the story you just heard as advertising to show in the past
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jewish dish, Gish jewish.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-13.