Today I am sitting down with Gretchen Rubin. Yes! The Gretchen Rubin of the Happiness Project, the Happier podcast, the Four Tendencies, and NYTimes bestselling author. Gretchen and I jump through all of her books, define the types within the Four Tendencies, and discuss her personal philosophies. I got so much wisdom and so many great quotes from her and I know you are going to as well!
Follow her @gretchenrubin
Or check out her website, gretchenrubin.com
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
You guys it's Rita, Hollis, and I am here is my friend, Trent Shelton was a rigid.
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Today I am sitting down with Gretchen Reuben, yes, the
Gretchen Reuben, of the happiness project of the happy,
podcast, of the four tendencies of basically every intelligent, nonfiction book written in the last decade. I was so excited to talk to her about all the things I literally jump through all of her books like a proper book, nerd and guts.
Which was out so many great quotes from her. You are gonna love. Today's episode, I Rachel Hollis and I've built a multi million dollar media company with a high school diploma and the free information I found on the internet in the fifteen years that I've been building and scaling my company, I have become deeply passionate about helping other entrepreneurs to do the same so each week I'll be sharing tangible and technical advice and inspiring interviews with the same intention. Bees are the tools to change your life and your business. This is the rise podcast I feel like. I can't really believe that I am talking to Gretchen Reuben right now. It's kind of trippy me out because I have listened to you on your own pod gas and on other people's pod gas. For so long have read the book,
I have done all the things it feels like. I feel like I'm all grown up,
to be able to get a guess like you on this shows that thank you so much for coming on. Oh I'm so happy to be talking to you. I know I feel it. We know each other well, because I've read all your stuff, I mean. How is it that we haven't like gonna, make hatred of opponents together? I agree. I'm ready, I M ready, could out when you are ready for that. We? U tell if, if by chance someone listening has been living under a rock and they do not know who you are, we you tell us about yourself
I'm a writer and I write about human nature, so I'd probably best known for my book, the happiness project and I also wrote a book called better than before, which is all that habit change the four tendencies which is all but a personality profile that divides people into four personality type
and I have a new book called out- or order inner com de clutter and organised to make more room for happiness, and I also have a pike
it's called happier with Gretchen Reuben, where every week I talk about ideas that had to be you know, spoiler, learn how to be happier if my colors to as my sister was his craft, he's like a fancy, show runner in Hollywood. So we talk about tits and concrete manageable,
ideas and hacks about how to be happier-
yeah, and I am a consumer of all the things,
acted as it is funny. I was like to prepare for this. I had sent someone on my keg. Just go get everything you can find of hers about Chernobyl and it's a stack. It is how adulation I want to talk about. I really want to dig into the divinity of a new book and I want to be able to dig into the difference, because what I
It gets so incredible about what you do that I admire so much as someone who also rights Nonfiction is you are really taking on totally different
angles like on on some level, I'm kind of like
I don't want to see them writing the same thing, but I'm trying to teach my audience kind of the same narrative.
As I take them through a journey, and I love that.
Were teaching them so many different things. So
Can we start with the happiness?
How can we get there?
tell tell us where and guys, I'm not. I'm really not exaggerating this every single book that we're talking about say you have to go by all. I have to go if you don't already have them if they're not already or by we gotta go dig in, but
tell us about how that came to be so
We started shooting up my book that was called forty ways to look a J, F K and I'm sure you, you know this from your own writing when you're finishing up a book, but it has had the shelves yet they're kind of this open space
because your job is kind of done in the next. The next step
Age of your job has not yet come
so I have a little moment of reflection and I was stuck on a city, bus and the poor any pouring rain, and I looked at the window and I thought what do I want from life anyway, and I have one of these rare opportunities for reflection and at that,
gotta be happy, and I thought I'd say that
but I don't spend any time thinking about whether I am happy or whether I could be happier- and I thought you know
checks and that with the phrase that was the all,
oh my gosh. I want to do this and I I did what I always do, which is. I ran the labour
did what I always do, which is. I ran to the library, got this giant Sech a book about happiness cause. I was like ancient philosophy: contemporary scientists, pop culture, memoirs novels like what
what can you make yourself happier? What is happiness
and so I decided that what I would do for my happiness project is take a year, because a year feels short enough to be manageable, but long enough that you could actually achieve some something measurable and take twelve theme
of things that, given my research, I thought were likely to make me happier and that were priorities of my own life and each month I will cause I'm a systematic person. I would focus on something like what
or friendship or love or whatever. It might be a give myself a handful of concrete, practical, manageable resolutions that would actually potentially make.
Difference, because I think a light arms you read about happiness in your like. Oh, it seems so abstract. It's not that I disagree with that.
I just don't even understand how to relate this to my own life. So is trying to take these big abstract principles and figure out ways to kind of make them happen in my life and that I just kept saying like and then-
so the happiness project is basically the report of what I tried. Why I tried what I tried and what I found when I tried
I know, and so it's sort of my own guinea pig
yeah and what were the things that, like what are your biggest take,
the things that was really interesting to me has become more and more obvious in true for me, as I'm gonna gone through, that my subsequent research is that
There is no magic one size fits all solution, and people want to say, like the secret to life is to get up at six a m it go running. First thing are, you know, and
or or you know, everyone should have a hundred friends or where immensely mainly every what we're all different and and we're happy
when we have a light that reflects our own interests,
and values are and temperament our own, you know character.
And the more that I tried to a know myself,
and shape my mom my life around. What was true about me instead of some fantasy sell for the west
I assumed I should be or what other people expected me prove to be, that I became happier
about. One thing that they like it. We ve got to figure it out for ourselves that everyone's happiness project would be different was was really kind of important for me, because I
like we'll just tell me the best things to do and I'll do them and it's like will nobody can write that list only you can write. That was for yourself yeah. I think so,
I became aware of you for the first time when one of my good friend, though I was going through a hard time, and she was going to hurt him as a mom, and she gave me this quote. She's, like Gretchen Reuben ACT. The way you want to feel gas actual act where you want to feel- and I was like it was like
it seems like the simplest thing, it seems like something we should all already know, but it was an appeal
need to me. Will you talk everybody through that idea?
well get I'm so glad to hear that struck a chord with the, especially at a tough time. Yet this is a kind of
well established psychological principle that we think that
We assume that we act because of the way we see all, but two very
degree? We feel because of the way we act, so it's like you
brain it yelling. Your brain is thinking wow here.
How much yelling and slamming of doors around here. I guess we're really angry and then that amplifies your feeling of anger, and so what this means is. You can use this
advantage like, let's say or feeling, very sluggish. If you act with more energy, if you walk more quickly, if you talk with more energy, you will start to feel more entered,
or, if you're feeling really shy in your like. Ok, I'm just gonna pretend to be really friendly and I'm going. You will start to feel
outgoing if you
feeling very resentful or angry at someone in your life- and you think you can disconnect show my gratitude for for this person, you will actually start to boost feelings granted or, like you, don't
wait until you feel like kissing her sweetheart, because just go ahead and kiss
from their homes, the feeling of affection. So this is our enlightened. We feel better
our emotions are just happening to us, but this is this is one of the many ways where we can actually direct our
ocean. All. Our emotional state, I think, is very high,
to dislike, sit there and change your emotional state from the inside. So I'm always looking for what can you do any outside to go in
and it s in the way you I feel is a way to do something. It's you can you can make your suit
Make yourself your loving, but you can at least I can, but I can't
myself kiss my husband and then give me my hands and makes me feel loving. Modern problem solved.
Yeah, I mean the one for me that super powerful and my husband does it as well, for the same reason is your pulling
into the garage at night after you, ve been working all day. We have forecast.
Yes, lama, Levick, snow, many kids right and I'm tired. All I wanna do is go put on my the jam as the US bedrock my room and that's not a possibility yacht. So if I will act the way, I want to feel if I will act so excited my gosh, I'm so these babies and give them like with
two minutes. You feel that way of soda was like so hugely impact for for me, and just now that you know moms all over the place are spreading sweating. Your message around the world, while I'm in your ear you're illustration points out another aspect of this, which is also important, which is the way
you behave very much influences the way people behave towards you, and so, if you
we're getting your like all my gosh, I still haven't you can give me a hug, evidently be like oh yea mommy. Someone comes running in if you kind of
Lincoln and our hope, nobody noticed is you then they're gonna be like you know: they're, not gonna.
Do that the response, and so it can it by acting friendly people, act more from
toward you ll give you smile more people, smile more you and then you feel like a living in a friendlier universe so hard, and it is also that deed back
How much does I mean? I feel like now the everybody's talking about mindset, everybody up
I'm a euro this book. What was it to doesn't nine?
yeah yeah yeah, I defend their tenth anniversary Congress,
So so, how much of of this journey for you is about learning to
if your mindset and changed the way that you are thinking and was that something that you felt like was easy to
and information about at the time is now. I feel like it so popular, but I gotta assume a decade ago. It wasn't espoused by prevalent. It's interesting because
one of the things I love to reduce like ancient philosophy and like the great essay us from the eighteenth century and
folks, we're talking. There stand theatre thing. Anyone has ever said time do not now, I believe now, you know if you have a taste for something like Samuel Johnson, it's definitely guilty pleasure. It's not a guilty pleasure for everyone, but it's like Youtube gets all these things and you know
So a lot of these truths are two ancient and too important to be new, because a great
frightened in up have been talking about this. They will use a different vocabulary and maybe they don't have the research to back it up or whatever, but a lot of these eight
is are out there. That may be indifferent words, but certain
seeing the researchers is very fascinating and seeing how people can like try to tease it and understand like wiser and things
be true, but I felt like a lot of these ideas were familiar to me from reading like the. U now we're, not William hazelnuts.
I mean I love it. You're guilty pleasure is ancient velocity and, like legitimately my guilty, pleasure is Harlequin romance top. Also were basically they say: I read a Harlequin amateur allotted recant better. I would love to subway and to the fore tendency because I feel like I.
I care over, which podcast it was. But I remember listening to you described this on upon CAS and again it was sort of like mine blowing.
Me- and I am obsessed with any kind of personality anything, so I love the any Graham, I love desk. I love anything that sort of how the ousted deeper into why we do what we do we
who talk listeners through this buck. Yes said, the Fort entities
personality profile that I can
I'm up with the coming out of my book better than before, which is all about, have changed to try to explain
certain had passed
in why people could in couldn't successfully change their habits, because training
or stand out, and I kind of stumbled on this framework and it look
set, how people meet expectations or resist expectations, which sounds super boring, but ends up being actually quite seriously so sudden.
That said, and there is a clear if you gotTA quizzed Gretchen Reuben dot com, you can take the frequent it's like a loving questions. Two million people have taken this quiz
spit out an answer and would give you a report on yourself but allotted
well done even need to take. The question is all just briefly describe it, and people instantly know what they are,
so it's whether Europe and upholder questioner and oblige her or a rebel those the four. So we all face, two kinds of expectations outer extract
sounds like a work deadline or a request from a friend and interaction.
Since my own desire to cuban ears resolution my own desire to do a better job of washing my face every night, that's my own inner expectation,
upholders regularly meet outer and inner expectations, so they they keep the work deadline.
They keep the mayor's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important
Their motto is discipline. Is my freedom.
And there are questioners questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if it makes sense so day.
Making everything an inner expectation if it meets their inner standard they'll. Do it no problem? If it fails their inner standard, they will push back, they resist anything, arbitrary, inefficient
unjustified? They always need to know why
Their motto is all comply. If you convince me why
there are obliges obliges right readily meet our expectations, but they struggled to meet inner expectations, and I got my insight into this tendency, this sort of money
on which she added. I even a coach expecting her to show up no problem, but when she was trying.
The thing that's: where does I know I'm happy or when I exercise and when I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never miss track practice so why
I go running now well
when she had in our aim in a coach expecting her to show up no problem, but when you
Try to go on her own, its struggle, so the soap
obliges need outer accountability to meet. Those in our expectations of their motto is, you
count on me and I'm counting on you to count on me
and finally rebels rebels resist all expectations outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way in their own time they can do any
they want to do anything. They choose to do, but if you ask her, tell them to do something there very likely to resign,
and typically, they don't even like to tell themselves what to do like they wouldn't sign up for a tenant spin class on Saturday, because there
Think I don't know what I want. I just want to wake up on Saturday and see what I feel is doing, and I just thought you didn't somebody's expecting me to shop is gonna annoy me:
and there a motto is you can't make me, and neither can I
So those are therefore
and what are you I've been upholder? I'm uphold there too. To
without question and I'm married to oblige her, ah
This is what like blue my mind when I heard you on this point gas and when I picked up the book for the first time is, I am both.
Currently and externally motivated and my husband is only externally motivated. So he if he has a coach if he has lost, if he has somewhat Vietnam's asking him, he will kill it yeah. But if it
exactly what you said. If, like you, you know four years, he was like, I just one again shape and I might go to the last stop eating yours, Mcdonald, but it while I could not understand why it was like we're speed.
In totally different language eyes. Then I remember when you are explaining this. I was like. Oh my gosh, that's us! Ah, that's interesting, while its interest in it
there. There are deaf, there aren't the same number of the four tendencies
so obliged or is the largest tendency for both men and women, so your husband's part of the largest I've been after that question.
Are a my husband's questioner.
The smallest tendency is rubble.
In the end, only slightly larger than rebels upholder, so you and iron can kind of part of french personnel.
Types and is there like? Is there any sort of
Eddie into. Like
people who are upholders like they more successful and businesslike? Is there anything like that way? You know it's hard it.
The thing about it, is that each of these tendency is includes people who are wildly successful and also big losers and each has its strengths, but then also its corresponding weaknesses and limitations, and so, when you look at why so many successful in something there so many aspects of personality that sick that will influence whether someone successful or not, but what
think is true is that it
looking at an individual person, they
who better when there in a place where it doesn't go ahead,
the grain of their of their natural tendency, select, let's say you must dinner, and this question
then a workplace words like hey, look
and were all key players here we get the word from corporate and we execute like we're all here together and we're here to do what you want us to do. Clusters emulate
not here to do not like the fact that corporate tells us to do it. Like I don't know.
I agree with that like this is to make it
and to me like no one's explain to me why worst sitting with his other software and die
might not help that questioner in that workplace, but at a different workplace that aspect of the questioners.
It might be highly rewarded, as I think it's a matter of fit and getting yourself into a place where,
you're you're all of your natural characteristics are a plus, for instance, rebels often do well and sales because in sales a lot of times, the message is really listen. Man, whenever
you gotta do to get the sale.
You gotta! Do it and rebels trouble still totally comfortable that, whereas I'm like
What are the rules and what are the lion sound like? I feel like this isn't right and you know he wants me to like give him a little flexibility here, but this is what corporate says you know
That would not I without do well, like that
more about match is more about like finding a good match.
And are there like, for instance, if you, if we are looking at the four tendencies you
This is a good thing.
I agree on how they overlap with each other. So are there like me, you can't see my hands
I'm talking with my hands, I know but like people who are in opposition like you're describing rebel to me, and it's like it makes my job skin crawl, because I like what you can't there's no way to motivate yourself. I dont understand just how does that working in terms of like relationship was so funny that you said, because I remember before even I had come up with this framework. I was talking to that end. We should lay down no, she such sort of, like what am I saw my seminal rebels, because this conversation is like seared in my brain, because she said so many things that we're just blowing my mind, but I told
I was writing a book about habits and she literally take a step back from me at the level of a life governed by habits was so loathsome where's to me
This sounded great. I'm like yeah
a growing, more and more have again are the better, so you're right
upholder and rebel? Is a tough combination because their values are so miss aligned, upholder
tend to love planning and to do less and calendars and execution, and if anything, they can get kind of rigid it's hard for them to be flexible hard for them to change at the last minute. The kind of one is
they on course once there on a course where's rebels,
have a very high value, spontaneity leg. Whenever anybody saying spontaneity, I immediately suspect that their rebel they wanted.
What they feel like doing. If they want to change, they want to change yesterday. This was the priority today. This is Supreme Court priority. I'm not interested in, like I Billy cleaning the basin to aunt yeah, maybe sought the most efficient high, but that's what I feel doing, and so that is a tough combination.
In fact it was interesting about rebels is when rebels are paradox either in romance or in like a teen like astounding team of a company. If one person is a rebel, almost always the other person isn't oblige,
That is a mere that's! That's the team that works bus if there's a rubber.
Almost always its within a lighter,
hey. Aren't next. Women's conference is only a few weeks away and if you have never attended before this is the events that will change your life rise is a three day: women's personal development conference, where we laugh until we pay our pans and we talk about our things. We cry and we find a community and we create the road map to changing our lives or our businesses or whatever it is that you're working on. If you want to find out more your curious, what it's all about, I highly recommend you go check out the instagram and see what our community says. You can hear it straight from them. It's at: let's rise, dot, co and, if you're looking for the next one, it's happening in Toronto on March Fifth, through the seventh that's Toronto March. This, through the seventh check out all the details at the Hollis cold dot com. If you have been looking for a nudge, if you have been looking for something to kick start change, I promise to this is the thing so
How does knowing what you are? How does how does understanding a personality better? How does that help you to make change in your life?
I mean you and your husband or a great example, because for you, as an upholder you're like I need to exercise,
I'm gonna to figure out a programme put it on the calendar dynamic. To do that. So that's great, but then what about your huh,
Well, if you know if I knew that your husband was an oblige I'd, say: okay, what you need
Our credibility. So do. Can you take a class? Can you work out with around he's gonna be annoyed? If you don't show up, can you think of your
it'd be a role model for your children. You want them to see you making exercise and a healthy life a priority, and you also want them to see you keeping your promises to yourself. So you owe it to your children. What about your future yourself? If you come to the end,
twenty nineteen and you're no further along in your health goals, can be really disappointed in yourself. Can you work? Can you
have a coach health coach. You know I had this
the better up its is free up and people form accountability. Groups there just on anything writing their phd thesis of gardening. Whatever it is, you know,
so just get the accountability if it's a rebel?
he's not exercising. Why wouldn't do that at all, because that would be very counterproductive because rebels, don't like people looking over their shoulders, are telling them what to do so for regular, be like that, you know y hear it
please, you know growing up. You'll love sports! You love games! You like you, love using your body guy. You fallen away from that little bit right now, but hey work
control. You like you're, not gonna, be sway. Your desk you're gonna get outside baby on your lunch hour, his you're in
later you're invited healthy person or, like
maybe would have loved to big gym where they have tons of classes and every day you go and you try something new and it's whatever you're in the mood for like you're, not going to lock yourself in cuz rebels. It's like what kind of person am I what's. My
entity and then like what do? I feel like doing that. Those were an and also the idea of like it.
Don't do something about this. Your health is
the decline? You're gonna be dependent?
paint pain, medication, you're, not gonna, be highly mobile. You're not can build a travel. The way you want your choices are gonna shrank and you're gonna become dependent on other people and like it's going to be as much fun to fly. You're, not gonna. Do you know you're you're, not gonna. Have that same sense of possibility? That's really high value for rebels, so they dont want to be controlled. So
that's that's the way you would do it for a rebel at a quantitative like this is the most efficient way to do it. This is what can work for you. You believe in this. You ve bought into this. Maybe you're gonna customize it for yourself questioners love to customize. Isn't it
spare meant they love to Bio, hack, you're gonna do this from others.
Are you deal if you feel great you'll keep doing at? If there's some? If you dont, then you'll try. The next thing, which is like
it's it's you having the ability to find the leverage that yet item for change CAS. Yet
love that that idea, the am I fill it with any of these. Are you dinner any room number for you into that
I knew it. I am, I a wonder for maybe a one in a three. I think I'm like each in their work, so a one is perfectionists and three is an achiever do which one do you think you are more, I think and hope they re, but then like here, but the one is somehow close so there-
there's always a wing yeah, there's winging has to be the number next year, so the I no way towards Radiogram so
two would be the helper and a four would be the individual s, so you have
you're, like very into your, I gotta go back and take yeah yeah, I'm just so curious with these tendencies. If there are none like with the dna grandma there any sort of overlap,
like these numbers tend to be bees. Thirteen tend to be upheld
yours either? I would think like just based on the description of upholder. I feel like it's sort of a three mentality, but maybe that's just because I'm I didn t find as myself what now
I love all these personally frameworks like you like. I love them,
I feel they each have of their own nuance in their own scraps, and then we need to match them up. Sometimes you,
kind of like some of what makes that framework spy
So interesting, though I thought you know or like what is it Myers breaks ever friend he's like an expert Myerst Briggs than he did this whole analysis for me, but I've kind like that.
It's kind of missing the point of Myerst Briggs. To do this, I feel like it. You now say is not true people guns,
We are trying to tell me that the tendencies corresponds that houses of Hogwarts.
And this is my guys- don't tell her Larry Here- is why not
her my any Fred George,
they are all Griffin Door. Yes, they are not all the tendency, absolutely no, so that I will say that it will ass fixed.
I have not had any word questioning that riding into my own work, so Confessedly boy came at local level. I tried to go to the entire. Like all the people in games. Shrouds, I mean you can see the tendencies and actually like they're they're, very blatant, even
people have tendencies, often
we, I know I'm going out of order in order that you wrote them. But what can we talk about habits? What do you do at all? I do not hear what I said. I have it so you better than before.
Where's, my book about, have a change, and what I do is I I done if the twenty one strategies that we can use to make or break habits and centres where, like twenty one, is too many. Give me five. Actually, it's good to have twenty one, because some of them
really well for some people, but not for other p.
So you want to know everything that you can choose from. She. Can we
cherry pick, the ones that are there.
That you respond to best, and so it's like. Ok, like the strategy of abstaining, so for people who are facing strong temptation.
Some people do really like me, do really well when we give something up altogether, it's easier for us to have none than to have a little bit, but then some people do
or when they have a little bit or they have something sometimes, and they get kind of panic in rebellious of they give something up altogether, so the strategy
abstaining is a very, very powerful strategy for some people and then for other people. It's not effective,
so. It's kind of like is this on your list or off your list, and maybe you ve never tried it. So try it and see. If that helps you, you will either find it like
Oh, my gosh, it's so much easier to keep saying that I ever knew it sounds hard, but it's actually easier if you're not staying here and that's really true or you're like know, this is kind of like
in the whig out? This is not my way and then you're like okay. Well now you know something about yourself. Abstaining doesn't work for you, but men and some of them like destroy
did you ve convenient strategy of inconvenience, very powerful,
it is that are basically universal. Ever the strategy of other people were all influenced by their people strategies, so some of them are universal, but then some of them are more are more.
Some people have an affinity to more than others, so
What are the habits like that? You think make the biggest dear friend alluded. Well, what are the strategies
called the strategy, a foundation, and it talks about like the four habits that are kind of at the core of self mastery and self ass. Recently,
that. We want a lot of a new right about this. All the time in your own vocabulary like we were
To be able to meet our aims,
ourselves. We want to keep our promises to ourselves. We want it like set our aims in the right places, so the we gonna make ourselves happier healthier more productive, more creative.
And the strategy foundation is to get enough sleep to get.
Exercise, which is not like an hour spin closets like a twenty minute, walk to a right,
eat right, which means like dollar yourself get to Hungary weirdly a lot of times. People eat too much because they ve got into hungry. So you skip breakfast, he skipped lunch and then you
everything in the vending machine or yeah
are and then also in this led to my bucket outer order. Intercom was to create order
because I was very surprised by that that the degree to which peoples people felt like if I get control
over the stuff. In my life I feel more in control of myself, which,
kind of irrational, but it's a useful illusion, but that often it's like imagine yourself
looking at the trying to eat, helpfully walk into a kitchen. If you walk into a kitchen where everything's put away
everything's wrapped up in the cookies are on a high sharpen, the kick cabinets are closed
counters or clean, and the lights are often you walk in there at ten p m you're gonna be
less likely to stick your hand into a bag of potato chips, that if you walk in there and there's like stuff everywhere and there's dishes in the sink and there's back there's a potato chip bag is just opened on the counter and the leftovers aren't having been put in the fridge.
It's just easier to like to go in there either. You don't have that site said like
environment isn't supporting yourself mastery,
so these those those are the four. I think if you get those, but of course we will be like yeah, but my help promise I take it. I came from the habit of getting enough sleep. That's for the rest of the book is about, but if you can get these forth
snail down you
major major progress
In addition, we don't you agree
oh yeah. No, I mean I feel like a zoo in we have something called five to thrive gases that are trying ass those same it I'm. What is amazing to me is the more I had the opportunity to me, author
and business leaders and the people that I admire and you get to have those conversations not on camera budget sooner sitting round beforehand or after the podcast you
is so shocking to me, how much people
I admire, have a lot of the same. We do a lot of the same things like we all might have our own vocabulary of those things, but our doing the same stuff. I was sitting with a couple. People gather data,
about my morning,
routine, which is so important for me and there like coming as I do that my morning routine and yet that's my thing to and its I feel,
like the reason, if your listing those you're like Alice, not the first time ever, someone tell me that I need to get enough sleep like
there is a reason to keep hearing about it and it it shifts me out it is it? Do you think, there's a certain amount of sleeper supposed to have or just what is right for our body, because I love the rock at random. I love
yeah. I think is great, but he's all right
packing, like there's a bunch of guys that I admire rural. I gave up for as a sleepless night and I think I would
actually be dead there, I'm asleep by nine p m every night of my life
so what what's the deal with that? Do you feel like we can sort of it were it whenever works best for you are. There is an actual scientific amount that we need to be getting. Well, that's a great question. There is a fascinating, but called internal time if people are really interested in the krona types and all this I love thy love that book so much by Rona Burke, but what?
apparently the research shows that there are true short sleepers, but there are very few in number and short: sleepers are people who need about four hours asleep, but if you are
True short sleeper, you do
nap. You do not
jack yourself up on sugar and caffeine
you do not like instantly fall asleep the minute you get an airplane or you're in a movie theater or like you're sitting at you know, like you're, sitting on a couch reading, a story to your daughter and then all of a sudden earthly truth
short true short sleepers
only need a very little, but they are a tiny percentage and there's a lot of people who are pretending like their toward sleepers. They'll say things like I've train myself to get by four hours asleep or something, but when we, when researcher study these people, they find that they are quite impaired it
that's your memory. It affects them immune function. It affects you're, you're focus. I think like
for me. It really affects kind of by irritability, a you know like just how much things rather me.
Eternal yeah. My sense of perspective, my sense of humor
and so, and but people kind of D
realize how off their game they are because they get used to it.
And so they don't realize how bad it is. Another problem with sleep is what they call
social jet lag- and this is, if you stay up like
three or four hours later on Friday and Saturday night, and then he sleep in it is as if your flying from EAST coast to West Coast every week, because your bought, you know,
consistency, like you say: you're, better related matter that is really best for the body, because then everything gets into that circadian rhythm and like it, the and U development you know your body adjusted
It is such a good analogy. I never thought about that. This analysis
and so, but I think more and more people are really waking up up to how
sleeping, an exercise aren't just a bit like there. They go so much deeper into our health are
longevity are our cognitive function.
Our memory like all these things, much more than even we realized, like its research, is just like every
That's like I am reading a new study about like oh by the way it turns out if you exercise you get
I, like you too
they'll by Dotterine College like exercise, improves memory function immediately in out like,
you're an exam period like you, gotta go for run. Yes,
These things are very important. I think a lot of people kind of pride themselves on like oh, I don't need seekers, I'm such a unit, so hard core is lay your probably
really not on your a game. The way you think you're, so I have this
theory that if you want to know what an author is going through in their life lead their most recent book. Do
like, as you ve written your way through all of these studies and done all of this research that you were. I mean, obviously with the happiness project, but are you
trying to answer the questions that you haven't been sharing it with the audience or do you feel like there's some books, it you ve written that you felt like
the community really asked for, and you were trying to help them along with interesting what you're gonna they save meet? Researches me search of it
I definitely I'm always trying to understand myself and kind of what I think through writing. It's like what do I think about this. I dont know until I read a book about it but bride,
but I will say that without our order. That was something run like I feel this way, but also other like I was seeing that other public. I thought this was just like my private, like saying that I got said such a kick out of creating outer order, and, like I begged my friends, let me come over and help them clear, clear their closets, but is actually
widespread, and so that was something where I was like. You know it, I'm not the only one that feels like this, like
So I was responding or like with better better than
for the book about, haven't changed one of the things that puzzled me after the happiness, project and happier home came out. This people
say to me. Well, how did you get yourself to follow all those resolutions
is that what you know. I just pick things that I thought would make me happier and that I did them if they may be happier a cab doing them, and they look at me
really puzzled and they say, but he added,
you get yourself to do them- and I was like I dont understand with problem- is here
you practically the same way as it reads, whereas a hundred percent out so party, though I was trying to understand what they are
sperience, something or being puzzled me something that I dont experience. So I was trying to end
a question for myself, but it was a question that was prompted by a response. I was getting from my readers.
I'm curious. This is taking sort of talking about the business side of things. If, if you will allow me again today with you
curious and you're gonna understand I'm asking this question what it
I felt like too you know,
guessing, and you tell me if I'm wrong- and you tell a country in the face of I am- is the happy
this project. It was a. It was a huge like like did you?
anticipate it to do as well as it did not start there.
What are you wearing went his way? He never knew our times now, seller, millions of copy soul, then
I loved it again to how does that feel for you and be
then how does it feel to write? Follow up bucks cause this
the world that I'm living in Now- and there are so few people who understands what he feels
to have had a hit. Nobody, except,
did let alone themselves, and then how do you keep doing this work? When the
chances vera living up to that thing again, feel nigh impossible
well, you did say you ve done it twice, but I guess that's why you're not gonna, do it you're like? Can I go ten? You know
I, a part of it, is like I just take so much pleasure in the research and in the writing in the kind of figuring things that I kind of.
Or driven by that, like
where the habit book I might of trying to get my mother to exercise? And I guess I am a happiness bully. My sister calls me that I'm trying to figure out like why would she not exercising pushing up saying she wanted to, and I kept looking
books about habit formation and they were very interesting unearthing unlike, but nobody is talking about how to change a habit like they're all skipping, the most important thing and I kept for the finance like
Did you write that book? I want the answer and nobody has reacted book. I don't get it like we're like. How is how isn't how is it possible that book doesn't exist, but it didn't
so. For me, it was like. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to find out the answer to this question. At the fort
ass, his eyes like oh my gosh like this is this- is
real. Like I stumbled across a symbol.
A like. I really think this is predictive. An end consists
and like ice. You know
for me, a lot of it is the through the intellectual excitement of pursuit,
something and of course
hope that it resonates deeply with an audience that I do everything that I can, and I kind of hope
the things that are really exciting and interesting to me will be things that are exciting and interesting to other people. But I don't know
think about kind of like the commercial, none of it, because that's that's! You can't gauge that, and I pray you absolutely hamlet. Irony too, with with girls suffer
college rising was
I had written that before wash your face came out. Thank God.
If I had my first half done, because
if I had it, if I hadn't done that, I I dont like I don't even over, would have written another book by now, because I would have been so afraid
creating again because it's impossible?
I guess it's impossible. How do you you can't- and so I love this idea, especially because so many of our listeners are they
it focused so heavily on the goal and one
the things we are talking about. A lot lately is falling in love with a process just like that. The goal could be a decade from now. You could be so far away from your ball, but
you can learn how to enjoy today by enjoying the process? And I love that you're grounding yourself in the joy that you find in the research was by that you said it was. My father says that all the time enjoy the process at
one of my twelve personal commandments, because it so true, because because the thing is, if you enjoy the process, even if
I wrote my books are forty waste. Look at J F K. You do not know
this, but when a book fails in the market place, what they tell you is it did not find its audience, that's how they put it so bad, but could not find it. A lot is
but I had such a joyful time where I loved right in that book I mean I just loved right. I love writing all my books and, unlike what I know
have done it now-
not have wanted to miss out on the experience of written there, because I enjoyed the process so much the fact that it didn't work out. The way I want it was was less
adding it would like. You know that it was not bitter, whereas the EU just forcing yourself toward some goal.
Have you done into the process? Will if things don't work out the way you want, then you ve kind of lost everything cause you either and Eve Eve you hated the brought you haven't like to process and you didn't achieving a bidding.
Something also, I think, is helpful. Like two year listeners that you're talking about is focused,
I don't know
on outcomes, focus on accidents, because
Whatever your processes? I can
sit down and write outside editor- I can join the writers group- I can read widely in you- can say,
and right every day I can write or whatever your processes I can hire outside editor. I can
Joint writers group- I can read,
widely in my in my area, so I may so that I'm completely like up to speed like what are the things that you can
what are the actions that you can take that might contribute to that outcome. But if you focus on the outcome, you can't
for the outcome and so it's kind of a wing away.
Save your mental energy, because I think sometimes people think if they just whip themselves up into it, is a frenzy of desire
that that will somehow speed their way there, but I think actually drains and distracts people. I know I love that I like to remind the audience
the world they grow up.
Her face was my sixth, but very,
seeing earth five books before that that nobody cared about and
the irony is that I like I never I lit, I have a full time job. I run a company. I they'll never wanted being an author to be my job, because I love it's. My creative outlet, its
thing that I do because it lights my heart on fire, because I am a book nerd and I thought
been wouldn't that be so called be able to create a book yourself. So for me,
It's always always about love of the word and the second that you start to obsess over the audience of the fans are what the world things or whether or not it make like the second. You do not you loser. You lose like the joy of what this thing is for you and I think that's true. My favorite books is big magic by let's go are where sheep,
talks about this idea that once you start
to attach money or fame or success to the thing to look to the creative process that you love it's
to be more about what that creative thing can do for you, then, whether or not its bringing joy, but so now, in your case now that the books are so wildly successful. Do you feel like you're attitude,.
Towards writing feels less
way fallen more like more like this is my day job,
or how many adventuring that transition
and this is
it's really interesting. So I have four four have for many years. I write for the longest time. I wrote a book a year. That was my process. I can. I can do that and then after I got through edits on sub apologizing, I was gonna start than
books already knew what it was, and I
so grateful. I'm never done it in my life, but I was like no I'm in any
I'm gonna need another four year. I can't write right now, I'm not in a place, I'm not in the head space that I can do this and am so
for that. I did that because I think if I had, if I hadn't, if I'd
Don't let schedule I would have written with bitterness that was so tired you know
Were you weren't you just busy morning tonight doing promotion for your book? Yes, yes, there's no way. I would like your hair is no, I dont have the capability to do that to you guys, so I am taking the time and I am so grateful cause it. It feels fun again and it feels like what is supposed to be. I do
one of the things that is really interesting is at all of you feel like this?
but because I came from a different genre and I love fiction fiction is the my passion. I just have this wild idea for a nonfiction book and it worked, and now
that's the thing that everybody wants. That's an interesting area for me to plan of. Do you feel
sort of this creative, like idea that you have in your heart, or do you keep doing the thing that is commercially successful? It's interesting that you just brought up list with Gilbert because she's one of the rare people who has had
the novelist at a memoir is at an infection writer and that
very at an end, and certainly the publishing industry. It's like they kind,
want you to stay where your audiences, your natural on answers and other hand, be external expectations.
Yeah, I think of you who are all now. I don't know any element, I think I think have only recently really consider herself primarily a fiction writer, but her nonfiction has always been more successful than her fixed yeah and that
The thing that I hear from my other author friends is its
then there's that question. While would you right under a pseudonym but big?
as for so long self. There are so many female authors who didn't get to write using their own name, and so there is that, unlike screw, that
like I'm, not gonna, I'm not going to hide away so that it makes more sense to other people. So I don't know
an interesting place to be
and for sure, but I think for me,
always comes back to do. I have the idea for the next job whenever one of four set up.
And I I don't know about you, but usually when I'm kind of rounding, spurred on a first draft, is when I start to daydream about it like
like an old man like daydreaming about a younger women instead of his wife here, like this bad described as hard as like Caesar
the day, I am about something that sexier and new and I'll tell you what I heard you. How does that hilariously is like I'm under obsessed with the book a writers diary thy Virginia Warp? It's like
her after she died, her husband, Leonard Wolf, went through and pulled out from her
extremely voluminous journals, everything related to her writing process. So you can read just like it's like. Well, we all from her like a volume thing, that's all about the rating process and Regina will did that all the time she would like on her maid-
Project with life with occurs, secret, illicit project and then ran in the pilot project had to become like the real project and then she's start cheating at something us and its constantly in her thinks she's like
Take away from this to work on that and is like it's actually work for her. You know because it was kind of kept. I think her to her creativity flowing because she wasn't feeling trapped into one project.
But she was like throughout her life. It was this constant kind of suicides was berating herself for procrastinating about in one one project by near, like your Virginia wealth and do whatever you want, but I would really, but it is interesting that you have that experience as well.
Do you, I'm so wit remind me when the last but came out its recent right March theft, twenty
without a word round. It is, as I remember I was doing a badge on the pod gas lies. I was like twenty four
representing around when I was on a business trip I do now with by Gazprom like Gimme everything up, and I remembered the pre order campaign. Therein were coming back to my team and be like man, Gretchen ruins pre. Other campaign is really smart, all that you're, so they sell. You didn't want to do the idea. We have had a ton of success with doing some kind- a video, or course- and I know you did that- but the gene
this thing that you did, that I never thought of was
giving a monetary value to what you were giving them for free,
that other, so smart, because we want to serve and want to give us the audience for this, like hey, if you were paying for this somewhere else. This is what it would cost you and I just thought it was such a smart way to add value to the buyers and
so give them a taste of what they were about to experience with the. But now we are supposed to
so. While the very thing I had marketing
How has that launch been for you and one of the things that you have loves hearing most from the audiences theyve read through? Will whenever I go speak, my favorite part is the q and a cause. I love hearing. What people are thinking and I love and often people will tell me like the most tell areas, examples too, and so, like it's really fun for me to get out
love going around the I love talking to people around the country so interesting, just to see like these little pockets of the world that unit. Otherwise you wouldn't get em. You gonna be going to like to step into that universe,
and so that's been really really interesting. One of the things- that's that's very clear
Is that for many people, their kind, and I think this is why the subject of outer order is kind of having a moment right now. Is there are people
like you, you have four kids a year in the season of stuff in your own home. You got all these kids that are generating all their own clutter in their own stop and you have managed that, but then also
the people are either downsizing themselves or their dealing with more and more like the the priest
generous and dying or downsizing, and so stop this kind of coming down. So they have some kind of coming up and stuff coming down and people just like I want. I want these things to get in.
Hands that can use them. I dont want doesn't have to go to waste. I dont want to dump it in a landfill, it's good stuff. I can't use it. I really want to give it to somebody who can use it, but that's hard, it's hard to
That added some communities, it's easier than others and some things it's easier than other things, but I just over and over hear people saying like how do I manage this because I don't I don't
seem ungrateful. Unlike I dont want. All these things are like people being lavished with gifts from grandparents and like
I love. I dont want to sound ungrateful, and I know that I'm so fortunate that I hope that I have all this love and being lavished on me and my children, but we
aunt manage this.
You're, not helping you. Now you absolutely yeah
That is so for you. You were saying earlier you're, someone who, like you, want to organise you wanna help your friend out and get in there and get it like you're all about the Marie Condo like does get it together, get some order into your life, be a big,
They feel like it's. It's exactly what you're saying earlier. You can't
have the success
you can't reach for the guy, you can at least
you can't do that with a calm centre. If the
environment around? You is chaos. However,
I will know that there are a small group of people who are truly clutter blind. So, like
my sister who's. The Kosovo have your pack, as there are some people where they really don't see it, and it's amazing to me- and, unlike I, don't understand what. How does this not bother you
truly it's like they don't see if they don't care. I mean my.
I just I just I don't care, I mean, and my sister you know
You know how to me, unlike why is it not
This is easy to go through your mail every day and get rid of it right now that eleven here for days, I don't know I mean, and yet she doesn't care
and our works for yes, I M, even if it doesn't really work for her. It's like that's, that's how she is, and so there is the smaller of our and I think we can
have to just cut. Does people some slack because it's not a priority
Unlike they don't get just like, we don't give them, they don't get us so that, but then a small number people you're right for most people outer order really does contribute to enter com and focus on a sense of possibility Annette.
Four men and I mean I absolutely feel this way myself. This is what
I forced myself on my friends, because if I in clearing their clutter, I get like the contact high a single
order emerged, but it's not my stuff, so I don't have any of the emotional, a people that comes from like going through your on thanks.
Just like all the other night, but I mean like the
night. This is like a month ago. I couldn't sleep in the middle that I in this is what the sleep experts say. Is there like? If you can't sleep, get up from your bed and do some kind
quiet activity, it's better than just sitting there stewing about how you're not going to sleep. So I never believe this, but I recently been trying it. Yes, it is true. So I
and I was like ok. What am I gonna do with myself, I just
for whatever reason to clean up my utility clause at which it sort of got overlooked, and I mean for the next month I just kept walking.
Whether utility closet to glow it's just me. I felt so good, unlike look at how to get my utility clause, at least this is amazing.
Completely there in and yet you're right I mean for most people, that's how it works,
I love that I look that we bully talked about, for there are so many books if you have not listened to Gretchen Reuben on audio. If you have not picked up a book that blasphemy or a target or burns a noble or grabbed run on Amazon, you guys like take
back there so much information that out their Gretchen. I'm so grateful that
you spent time others us today and that frankly, you spent some
it's time devoted to finding answers all, because I think that is it. That is a massive deal for people who are looking for some way. Some tactic some clue to figure out how to get to the next.
Place- and I know that you ve been a profound influence in my life and I am positive that their readers, who will say the same and readers who don't even know you and are about to have their life's change by your works, a thank you so much for taking the time to talk to beg. You is so, but it don't. You think we could talk
for the next seventeen hours, so yeah several and we're going to go and that they can really get out of the code of good will, but we'll go to bed at nine p m
of course, I'll be right there with you.
Ladies and gentlemen, did I mentioned. I have a book coming out. Here's the thing. It's called get out of your own way, sceptics guide to growth and fulfilment and we're
the priest cell window of windows. I am super excited about having written a book for both men and women about
twenty lies that I once believed that were keeping me in my own way. I have,
this from the perspective of some one that is
totally different from Rachel Hollis, even if the format is somewhat similar to grow wash your face, I wrote it from the perspective of someone who's been skeptical of tools like this.
Book or even the pot castra listening to for ever and ever its through. That lends that I'm talking about the ways that I was getting in my own way and I think in uncovering the truth behind those lies. Not only did it help me get out of my own way to help you get out of yours. There are two ways I want to say thank you for preparing this book
I've created in the course of course, yes and a course, a sixty minutes each course called finding your why it's
a fantastic resource, it's available absolutely
or free right now for having pure the book and if you go to get out of your own way, the book that calm right now and follow the problems. Not only we get Icarus. You can hear the first thirty minutes of the book again get out of
on way comes out March. Tenth, I'm super super excited about it, get out of your own way. The book dot com hit that link follow the problems, and I appreciate your support.
Transcript generated on 2020-02-13.