Due to the graphic nature of this killers crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes drum physicians and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen and nineteen eighty seven, Cathy Wood and Gwen Graham embarked on a killing spree that claimed the lives of five elderly patients at the alpine manner nursing home in Grand Rapids Michigan. Their first victim was an elderly all Cyprus, patient, Marguerite Chambers,

On a snowy winter evening in nineteen, eighty six edge chambers entered room, six fourteen dash one at alpine manner, where his wife Marguerite had been institutionalized and pulled up. A chair beside his wife's bed held her shaking hand and spoke to her about things of little consequence for about an hour as though everything was normal, but their conversation was far from normal. It had been twelve years since Marguerite was diagnosed with. Also disease she had since lost her ability to communicate and Ed couldn't be sure if she understood what he was telling her. During his visits in the five years, Marguerite had been a patient had alpine manner while her husband's visits may have been routine for Marguerite. Two things had changed for her days leading up to Christmas. That year, the first was the music playing in her room

as part of a new in room programme, a staffer came in once a week to play the waltz music that Marguerite so enjoyed in her youth waltzing was one of her favorite activities. And while she might not have been his agile at whisking across the floor as she once was, Marguerite, old age and fragility certainly didn't stop. Her from trying but the second change was quite a bit less welcoming to Marguerite chambers. It was an intrusion, a sense that someone was trying to get her after Ed left, Marguerite, felt and unrelenting pressure of her nostrils and jaw cutting off for air supply and causing or to lose consciousness, but she regained consciousness the next day. Having survived the assault, however, She was unable to communicate what had occurred in our current state of dementia on January eighteenth, nineteen, eighty seven Marguerite one thing

in two hundred ninety third day as a patient at alpine, another assault occurred. Marguerite was jolted from her sleep as an intruder pulled back the divide or curtain around her bed. A pair of hands forcefully applied a rolled Terry cloth over her face smothering the dementia patient Marguerite thrashed in her bed, but she struggled to breathe in any slight bit of air in our final moments of consciousness. Her eyes couldn't help it look up at the face above her, but whose face was she looking according to court records based on nurse Cathy Woods, testimony the hands that suffocated, Marguerite chambers to death belong, to nurse, when, Graham, while Cathy played look out by the door, room six fourteen dash one, however journalist and true crime. Author Lowell Coffee has another theory She laid out in his one thousand nine hundred and ninety two book forever and five days, which was also the source of the account of Margaret Chambers murder,

You just heard following the murderous, do owes convictions and nineteen eighty nine Caulfield investigation into the case for forever in five days brought new details to light presenting a very different Cathy would than the one person did it Quinn's trial and putting into question everything? The court had determined to be true, a case of the alpine manor murders. As far as Caulfield was concerned, those hands that suffocated Marguerite chambers and that face she looked up at in her final moments of life might as well as belonging to Cathy Wood so who is the more culpable party in the alpine manner? Murders was it, Graham, is the court determined or Cathy would, as Lowell Coffee suspects on this episode of serial killers will present evidence for both accounts and allow you the listener to decide what is the true story and what is a lie.

Hi, I'm Gregg Paulson, and this is serial killers today continue. Our explorations into the lives of Gwendolyn, Graham and Cathy, would a pair of nurses whose incorporation of murder into their sexual relationships led the papers to label them the lethal lovers, I'm here with my co host Vanessa Richardson. This is not a licence, psychologist psychiatrists, but she's done a lot of research for the show. I everyone we like to ask a quick favour. Would you leave of five a review of serial killers on your favorite podcast directory, it seems so simple, but it really helps us out and don't forget to subscribe, while you're there, because a new episode comes out every Monday. You can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at PAR cast and on Twitter at PAR cast network. In November, one thousand nine hundred and eighty nine Gwen Graham, was found guilty of five counts of first degree, murder and one count of conspiracy to murder. She was given five life sentences

which is currently serving out in the women's Huron Valley, Correctional Facility and Pittsfield Charter, Township Michigan, as part of her plea bargain to testify against Gwen at her trial, Kathy Wood was given a reduced sentence of twenty years and charged with one count of second degree, murder and one count of conspiracy to commit second degree murder, but us a canoe breakdown for our audience. What the distinction is between first and second degree, Of course, when one person's actions lead to another person's death, we often think of such a case is murder, but due to the complexities of situate Since that could lead to one person taking another's life, our judicial system set up a hierarchy of acts that are collectively referred to as homicide at the hop. We have the most serious form of homicide, burst, degree, murder or felony murder. This is and one intentionally kills. Another person, wilfully and premeditated with malice, aforethought and second degree. Second degree murder would,

a case where someone intentionally kills with malice aforethought, but it's a spontaneous murder that isn't planned or premeditated. For example, if two people get into a our fight, and one of them kills the other. That would be second degree murder, but if you take that seem situation, except in this case, the person who kills the guy in the fight had just doubt that this individual had been having a long term affair with his spouse. That would then be considered. Voluntary, manslaughter or third degree murder. Why would the revelation of infidelity be a determining factor whelp, while both sex degree, murder and voluntary manslaughter are both spur of the moment. Murders in the latter case there's a circumstance that would cause a real the person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed. The fourth degree involuntary manslaughter Is when some one has no intention to kill, but their intentional act

or negligence leads to another person's death. A classic example of this is a drunk driver who gets into an accident and kill someone you can. I get it, but at the end of the day, someone is dead and, despite how you may classified the homicide, they're not coming back. So what's the point, it's all sentencing our judicial system considers intentions and comparability is very relevant factors when determining sentences were convicted criminals and having the ability to Duessa sentence from say, first degree, murder down to second degree. Murder is a prosecutors best bet, forgetting quote nation from a criminal awaiting trial. What did the differences in sentencing for first remember and second degree, murder. Generally speaking, what for second degree martyr? sentence can be anywhere from approximately twenty years to life in prison for a first degree, murder, conviction, new, look life in prison. Typically with no possibility of parole and in some cases and states, the death penalty

so, while Gwen Graham will likely never see the light of day Cathy, what has been eligible for pearls since two thousand five and is set to be released in twenty twenty one, which seeks to make sense if you're going off Cathy's testimony in which she claimed that Glenn was the one who planned and carried out the murders Cathy claimed she was manipulated by Gwen into getting involved as the look out, and would it occasionally have to distract the supervisor set alpine manner, while Glenn smothered the elderly patients to death, or at least that was the story that was widely accepted by the court and the public debt until true crime, author Lowell Coffee painted a very different narrative about the alpine manner murders and ninety ninety two Vanessa, what he told audience in a nutshell. What coffee uncovered about this case in his book forever and five days, Gregg, essentially Caulfield, doesn't by the version of Cathy, would that was presented at Glens trial did

damn about pathologically manipulative lover through digging deep into court documents and interviewing close friends, coworkers and family members of Cathy. Would coffee comes to the conclusion that it was Cathy who was the true criminal mastermind behind the murders he believes it was Gwen. Who was the one manipulated into becoming involved in the murders? As part of Cathy's insurance policy to prevent Gwen from ever leaving her, in other words, coffeehouse theory, is that in reality the rolls Cathy and Gwen pleaded the murders were reverse of how capital and to be exactly. He sees Gwen as more of a tragic character who fell victim to Cathy, who coffee ill considered to be a man If you live psychopath gruel Cathy was diagnosed as a pathological. Narcissist, yes, and a quick look at Cathy's, marriage and home life reveal the symptoms of a true psychopath, manifested her Ex husband Kenwood said that he saw Cathy would psychopathic side.

That she was not a good wife and was unable to provide the kind of emotional support and care that his own mother brought to the home when he was growing up can also said after their daughter, Jackie was born. Cathy resented her daughter for pre occupying his attention, or that certainly sounds like pathological narcissism to me and you wouldn't be wrong those that New Cathy said she would delight in wreaking havoc in other people's lives. Last week we talked about how Cathy and Gwen would play pranks on some of the patients and other nurses at alpine. Well, Cathy would torment can, by convincing her friends to call up the house having to be an old girlfriend of cans, and she would listen to the conversation on the other line. Only so she could raise against him. Afterwards, Suffolk, a tough home to live it, but can was willing to stick it out. It was Cathy who, in August nineteen eighty six after seven years of marriage, demanded a divorce and can lift their daughter uncontested by Catholic. Shortly thereafter, Cathy Nudity.

Home closer alpine manner, with when, Graham pretty soon, the two nurses began a romantic relationship with one another Vanessa, we ve talked about how Cathy was a pathological narcissist and last week we discussed how when was diagnosed borderline personality. But how did these two personality disorders play off each other in a relationship? Great question Greg that also plays into coffeehouse theory about Cathy? Would, according to Doktor Mark Austin of psychology today, when it artistic and a borderline get together. The excitement, ecstasy and passion at the beginning of a relationship are only exceeded by the vitriolic venomous repulsion at the end, sound familiar sure does. But what specifically about these two personalities mixed their relationships so too? Essentially, it boils down to the fact that borderline personalities tend to possess strong feelings of emptiness and penetrating fears of being alone, which is

Why there so weary of trusting others so border lines? Ten, seek out some one who can fill their emptiness and relieve their loneliness. Their attracted to the narcissist, because initially here she comes off- is strong and competent in their objectives, but would seems to be passion and generosity, for their partner is really about how the partner makes the narcissist feel about themselves. The narcissist seas, their partner as an ally in getting whatever it is he or she may be in pursuit of, and in the case of granting Cathy well, psychological testing reveal one could easily be manipulated because of her borderline personality disorder, especially by a path logical, narcissist, like Cathy, who knew exactly what to say. To make someone hers, you recall from last week's episode that Cathy wasn't even attractive.

Gwen until she noticed the scars on her arm from her self mutilation and saw signs of someone with low self esteem, wish she could easily manipulated to doing her bidding exactly as coffee said. One of the hallmarks of a psychopath is the ability to manipulate people and typically, the way that's done as they find people who are damaged in some kind of way, they have some kind of opening that they work with to meet their needs and through meeting their needs. That's how they are able to manipulate them, and that certainly the case with Cathy would Gwen describe their relationship as psychologically abusive but Cathy was able to keep went around by making her feel special in the words of Doktor, Michael Abram, ski the forensic psychologist, to perform psychological evaluations on granting Cathy, for this case quote glens tendency to seek out other abnormal character is certainly existed for several reasons. First, that's the only kind of person,

would be involved with her. Nobody whose healthy would take someone being angry with you one minute, loving you, then next minute being inconsistent stealing from you and then expecting love from you. There are many unconscious elements that go into this in people who are like Gwen will often seek out other psychopathic individuals and complement them, but of course, the most toxic asp. The relationship between the narcissist and the borderline is the chill

level of rage: they will express and feed off when one of them is disappointed, let down or criticised to quote Doktor John Palm Tier in the world, the Cathy and Gwen existed. They were perfectly matched because, with the other, one lacked her partner fulfilled. So when you put these two chemicals, these two things together, it created an explosion and in any explosion, people die and what we can almost be certain to find in the toxic relationship of borderline and narcissistic personalities are lots and lots of wise court documents reveal the many discrepancies and Gwen in Cathy's testimonies describing the dynamic of their relationship, while many, the events that occurred are the same. In both women's testimonies, the discrepancies lie in who played which role. For example, in last week's up

said, we discussed a sexual encounter between Gwen in Cathy after attending a Halloween party just three months prior to their first murder. Cathy said quote: when bound me to the bed with her restraints. Then she said: Third me with a cloth over my mouth and nose, so I couldn't breathe while she had sex with me, while Gwen said quote, Cathy bound me to the bed with my trains. Then she smothered me with a cloth over my mouth and nose, so I couldn't breathe. While she had sex with me, Goin has described for relationship with Cathy is physically and psychologically abusive. It wasn't long after the first murder about six months into their relationship. When, when decided, she was no longer willing to be subjected to the abuse of her pathologically domineering, lover Gwen moved out of her place with Cathy and began

another nurse from alpine. According to Glyn, when Cathy found out about her new romance, she threatened glints lover with a pistol and revealed that she had the ability to send Glenda prison if they kept seeing each other decade when a pretty good. Here, which is exactly what coffee believes these murders were all about for the narcissist Cathy would leverage by loving Gwen and the murders cabbie now had the ultimate blackmail on her borderline lover to keep her from ever leaving her. That was what made murder pact as Cathy Road her infamous love poem, two Gwen be mine forever and five days. That certainly has some very controlling language used. Yes, and that was the name of Cathy's game control, well. Cathy's game certainly worked for a little while

Gwen was so spook by Cathy's threats that she decided to move back in with Cathy, but the abuse continued Gwynn recalls. One incident during that period, where Cappy bound Gwen to their bed, but not for sex Cathy took when's gun threatened to kill. Her then use the pit along when sexually before leaving her tied up in the house all alone for several hours, like the incident on Halloween. Cathy recalls this episode taking place, but in her version its Gwen, who is making the threats and doing the dominating but to meet Glens account please better what happened next, the killings which began in January nineteen, eighty seven with the murder of Marguerite Chambers, had taken their toll on the couple overwhelmed by toxicity of their relationship and fed up with being terrified of Cathy Gwen, finally found courage to end her nine months relationship with Cathy once and for all and get as far away from her as possible.

Gwen and her new lover Heather another nurse from alpine moved back to Glens Hometown of Tyler. Says together in May of nineteen. Eighty seven, and that was the and of their romance and their killing spree tax Can you imagine how that made a narcissist like happy would feel she must have really wanted Gwen back well, according to cocktails theory, what Cathy really wanted was revenge A story will continue in a moment after a brief message: high its Gregg Vanessa, and we have some great news for all of our incredible cults listeners as it thank you for your wavering dedication and support. We re released Eighty three episodes of serial killers from our back catalogue and are already in your feed and available to listen to right now. Do you have a favor from these episodes. I really like our exploration of Harold Shipman, otherwise known as doktor death. I also

loved. Our deep dive into the life and crimes of killer clown, John Wayne Gacy. What are your favorites? I liked her episodes on David, quits. Also known ass, son of SAM I was also really intrigue by ad camper, a disturbing Syria murderer with near genius level intellect whether Europe, living. Some of your favorite episodes or hearing about these chilling murderers for the first time these eighty ray episodes are available right now, plausible, still releasing new episodes of serial killers every Monday get caught. Up on serial killers for free on Spotify or wherever you listened to podcast enjoy and thanks for listening high, its Gregg, but I am beyond excited to tell you about another fetching show from Parkhurst. Therefore, legged full,

love and oftentimes more like family than their nicknames suggests, dog tales tells the truth stories of heroic canines who have gone above and beyond their best friend duties. Every Monday dont tales embarks on a new journey of courage, service and unwavering sacrifice by our most loyal companions. You'll hear tales of inspiration from all breeds of life like Buddy, the german shepherd the worlds first seeing eye guide, dog or Huskies Baltic in Togo, the sled dogs who made of life saving medical delivery from Anchorage to NOME each episode of dog tales is as unique, ass the pumps themselves and sure to bring you closer to their furry friend in your life, so get ready to sit, stay and roll over with excitement for park. Hast endearing series, doc tales, listen to dog tales, free on Spotify or wherever you get your pod casts now this.

Worry, continues. Cathy wood was a pathological liar as Kenwood one set of his ex wife. Eighty percent of what out of her mouth is a lie. Take for example, the story we discussed last week that Cathy tells about her first romantic partner David, who Kathy says deceived her into believing that she was a man we d some ways that it might have been possible that Cathy was actually fooled into thinking that a woman could have been a man in a romantic relationship but crime. Author coffee believes that the far more probable explanation is they Cathy just made the whole thing up. But why would you do that? Well, the ideas that Cathy knew the whole time that David was a woman but fabricated, a story that would buy her sympathy and portray her as a victim and Cathy's proclivity for stretching the truth opens up even more questions about the next part of the city,

after Gwen, Graham left, Cathy would move back to Texas with new lover. Heather Cathy was devastated. She met with her ex husband can in nineteen. Eighty eight following whence depart at some point. During this meeting Cathy confessed. To can that she had done some horrible things. Perplexed by her ambiguity can prodded Cathy for details about what it was. She was referring to Cathy posed the question for can what do you think is the worst That a person could do can thought for a moment and answered murder. I guess Cathy fixed him with a cold stare and replied. Try six times that. Can set with Cathy's confession for several months before reporting into the police. When asked why he took, long to say anything can said that he believed Cathy was lying or pulling a prank on him. This seems consists but the testimonies from those who knew Cathy can

was the only person Cathy told she talked about murdering patients with several ever coworkers alpine, who disregarded it as just another one of Cathy, sick joke. Done male another former alpine employ who heard Kathy When discussing the murders said, I didn't believe them. I thought it was a joke, a sick joke, but a joke that had games. Even the police didn't know what to make of this confession. After KEN came forward on October sixth, one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight Kenwood spoke with Walker, Michigan Police, Detective Tom Freeman, whom he told her the murders Kathy had described. Him can included two or three of the victims names, including their first victim, Chambers but police had no physical evidence to back up his claim, and several members of the departments suspected that can may have been trying to vindictively frame Cappy as revengefully

him to raise their daughter, Jackie, all, on its own eight years, prior after all, to nurses, killing their elderly patients in a nursing home as part of a love pack seem like a bit of a stretch at this time. Never less KEN story seemed credible enough to raise some eyebrows and the Walker Miss in Police Department decided to open up an investigation, police began by running background checks on Canada, Cathy, who had no criminal record. They then contact. The police Department and Tyler Texas, and discovered that Gwen an outstanding warrant for bouncing a couple, a bad checks, but no record of any criminal violence, but the police wanted to take the time to gather physical evidence before they confronted Cathy or Glenn about any allegations of murder. Detectives, Roger Clinic and Tom Friedman went to alpine matter to pull some files, employee and patient records. They were looking for anything suspicion

related to the death of eight women. They come to recognise as potential homicides, though we now know that only five of these women were actually murder. Victims in the deluge of records police found that Cathy Wood and Gwen Graham had in fact been on a shift when each of their potential victims died. The only problem, of course, is that most patients who enter a nursing home don't tend to leave the place alive and policemen. No increase in the amount of deaths during the time at Cathy and Gwen worked it alpine police decided to bring in Cathy would for questioning at First Kathy, flat out denied any murders had occurred, claiming that He had only told that your ex husband ass, a joke, but Detective Tom Friedman wasn't buying it and after Forty minutes of interrogation Cathy broke down and confessed to the murders but claimed that she wasn't involved in the actual killings themselves that she claimed was all Gwen

when detectives express their doubts that Cathy played such a minor role in the murders. Cathy insisted that she could prove it with the letters between her and Gwen and the trophies that they had taken from the patients they killed. But when police searched her house, they uncovered the love letters between Cathy and Gwen. However, none of the trophies which Cathy claimed to have were found. There was also nothing incriminating within the content of the letters without Lately, no evidence to verify her claims police convinced, Cathy to take a polygraph test. She failed the test and the polygraph operator strongly believe the Cathy was making the whole thing up. At this point, police were ready to just drop the entire. An investigation due to assume

the lack of evidence, but Tom Friedman felt a guttural certainty that Cathy Wood was telling the truth, so detectives flew out to Tyler taxes, to talk to Gwen, Graham off of her charge for bouncing back checks, police obtained a search warrant for her home. They were met with surprise by Gwen and are living girlfriend. Heather Gwen was questioned by detectives. Well, please searched your home once again, they came up empty handed with nothing to connect when, with the deaths at alpine, but Detective Freeman was determined to get down to the truth of what really happened on October 17th, one thousand nine hundred and eighty eight he confronted Kathy about her failed polygraph test. He suggests that he believed she failed the test, because she was not admitting her full role in the murders, Cathy's response she go up and walked out of the room without saying a word, but three days later, Detective Freeman received a call from Kathy.

Who admitted to him that she and Gwen had planned the killings together. She told him about the game. They had invented the murder game, while Cathy claim they came up with it together. Sure of who really came up with the game is still unclear. It should be noted that, based his psych evaluations of Gwen in Cathy Doktor, Michael I'm ski believed quote: cabbie was much more of a sophisticated, manipulative person, where Gwen was much more of an aggressive, acting out kind of person. So what you found is similar personality vibes, but one more sophisticated than the other end quote. He points out that because of one's bp, she liked the inhibitory part of Brain, which made her far more subject to impulsive behaviour. He thought that it was unlikely that Gwen would come up with any kind of sophisticated plot like spelling the word murder by the victims initials, but there was

one image from the Roar shack test, Brodsky performed on Gwen Gram that he found rather telling, when shown a big colored inkblot when's unconscious identified the image as a pregnant monster, a pregnant monster. What's that supposed to mean a brand He believes that the pregnant monster symbolized the mother for whom Gwen yearned and the evil produced by their failure to bond. But what does that have to do with the murders? Exactly in a bribe, skis words quote the murders, were a binding behaviour, a symbolic bonding, the two of them creek, did their own little world Gwen and her surrogate mother. She was the good little girl Who did what mom wanted to earn moms favour and two Gwen whole thing was simply play. Yes, the pregnant MA MR, is Glens mother, but

I also believe that the pregnant monster is Cathy would end quote, but in her conversation with Detective Freeman, Cathy claim that Gwen was the one who roped her into participating in the murderous as a lookout which she says she agreed to, because she was so in love with Gwen. And didn't want to lose her. She said she got out of her relationship with Gwen when it was heard, turned to actually kill one of the patients Cathy claims she couldn't do it, and shortly after Gwen left her for another woman, on November, twenty third nineteen, eighty eight Cathy took a second polygraph exam What the Michigan State Police this time She admitted to her participation in the murders, as opposed to our first polygraph, where she put the brunt of the blame onto Gwen, and this time her polygraph came back positive police now at least had some evidence that the murders actually took place, but testimony from a polygraph exam doesnt mean much to a jury without some hard physical evidence.

So based on the results of Cathy Second Polygraph exam police obtain disenchantment, search warrants too whom the bodies of the alleged murder victims, the only problem was that most of the victims bodies had already been cremated. Nevertheless, they were able to perform a top seize on at least two good avars that were still hole, first victim Marguerite Chambers was exude on November thirtieth nineteen. Eighty eight for examination at the Kent County morgue. Now this part of our story is about to take an interesting turn. You got that right, especially as far as coffeehouse theory is concerned. Stay tuned will return to our story in just a moment. Now our story continues

as part of our look into the lives and minds of Cathy, wouldn't, when, Graham and in an effort to get down to the truth about what really happened. In this case, we reached out to someone who is personally very close to Cathy, would in an attempt to gain some first hand, incited to her psyche, Cathy's daughter, Jackie would now thirty seven and working as a social worker and Grand Rapids Michigan. When asked about her experience, growing up as child of a serial killer. Jackie told us that quote, people have been disrespectful by only thinking It's cool that my mom is a serial killer as a kid while the trial was happening, one or two friends at school told me there. Her and said they could no longer hang out with me didn't know why. I knew why I'm usually eagerly tell people about my mom, because I figure everyone must see. There's something strange or off about me when they meet me. I feel once they know will explain all of my awkwardness

may or may not be true. I dont think people are completely honest about their reactions to my face, which is understandable boy. I can only imagine how difficult that must be for a child and that circumstance, but let's hear it jack, you had to say about her experiences with her mother. She said quote: my mother was hot and cold. She was definitely depressed and hated being in public. She slipped often and was even zombie like at times. Sometimes she was very affectionate with me. I had even woken up and caught her watching me sleep with a smile interface. We did not have a strong bond. However. Sometimes she teased me other times it felt like. I was her favorite thing in the world I am speaking of when my parents were still together once they separated. I almost never saw my mom when I did. She appeared a lot happier according to Jackie. However,

she and Cathy mended their relationship as she got older, Jackie stated quote our relationship improved after her incarceration. She was more consistent, loving and positive. However, our relationship was very superficial because I was too young to have in depth conversations also building a relationship through the Fifteen minute phone calls prison allows, doesn't encourage growth in a relationship after she was sentenced. She served outside of Michigan and there wasn't enough time or money for me to visit. Jerky went on to describe what happened between her and her mother. Cathy. As the years progressed quote in my twenties, mom asked me to help her with Pearl hearings. I was advised by not to do this and was also not sure where to start. I was in college and working. The last thing I wanted to do was more research, but this upset her and we had an argument, but things went back to normal pretty quickly, but when Jack he was thirty, six

She saw a documentary about her mothers case. The documentary focused on Caulfield version of the alpine murders portraying Cathy Ashton negative psychopath criminal mastermind behind the killings and Gwen as a tragic victim of Cathy's, cruel manipulation, so Jim, he decided to reach out to her mother. Once again quote, I felt He needed someone in her corner and I told her this. I also told her It was still thinking about writing. She knew I thought about writing a memoir? Since I was around twenty years old, she said she was supportive. This time she told my aunt her sister did. I had only contacted her for help with writing this book, at least, I think, that's what you said based on my ants reaction. Mom has not contacted me since suit is covered daughter, Jackie, have any desire to have a relationship with her. According to Jackie, it's complicated, she said quote. I want a relationship with her, but I dont want to be

heard any more. I dont want to be misunderstood by her. I can't have both so I'll have to choose, he may have chosen for me. If she decides she no longer wants contact with me indefinitely hasn't been easy for Jackie, and I have nothing but sympathy for someone in her position. She's torn its or for child, want a healthy, loving relationship with their parents, but she also knows what her mother did was evil. She wants to be close to someone who she doesn't denies a murderer. Jackie doesn't deny she's a murder, but some people do. If you recall, before the break we were discussing Kathy. Second polygraph exam, which came back positive, gave lawn Foresman enough to go on in order to acquire disenchantment, search warrants to have autopsies performed on the bodies of two of the victims. Will the forensic pathologist who perform the autopsies Marguerite Chambers and Edith Cook found out, lately no physical evidence of murder on the two bodies he looked for Bruce

legions self inflicted cuts in the mouth from a struggle and found nothing? Despite this, he changed the cause of death on the desert if it gets from natural causes to homicide without any objective evidence to justify this change. I see what you're getting at, but to be fair in cases of suffocation. It's quite difficult to find hard evidence on them Like the forensic pathologist said, quote, police are out there looking for murders and never took place. I grant you that first point Gregg but take issue with that last comment? It's not the job of a forensic pathologist, too Fraternally change the cause of death in a death certificate, soul, based on the experience and confidence of the detectives working the case. It's his job to perform the autopsy report, his findings and pretend Please make a change based on objective evidence and as far as hard it is concerned. We really have

no reason to believe that these murders ever even took place. Certainly sloppy detective work, but you really think the police would have made this whole thing up, not in this case No, but the police were only going off of Cathy Woods testimony and as a vindictive site, path, a criminal masterminding, pathological liar it's quite possible but Cathy's the one who made the whole thing up just to get back at Gwen for leaving her bewildered certainly not how the jury eventually saw it. But let's come back to this point in a bit after police got the death certificates, change. Freeman was able to take this case to the prosecutor's office. And obtain warrants for Cathy and wins arrests on December. Fourth, nineteen. Eighty eight Gwen grew.

And was arrested and Tyler Texas for the murder of Edith Cook. Cathy wood is charged with one count of conspiracy to commit murder for Marguerite Chambers and one count of murder for Edith Cook. In April nineteen, eighty eight Cathy signed a plea agreement as part of her cooperation with the authorities in the investigation in exchange for her testimony against Gwen, Cathy was charged with just one count of conspiracy to commit murder and one count of second degree. Murder. Gwen was subsequently charged with. Count of conspiracy to commit murder and five counts of first degree. Murder Gwen continued to maintain her innocence, denying that the murders ever took place, or at least not to her knowledge. And so on September, eleven nineteen, eighty, nine Gwen grey. Murder trial began in Freeman words quote, it was probably one the weakest cases I ever had with. Essentially, physical evidence to back them. Prosecutors built

nearly their entire case around Cathy's. Testimony from her second polygraph exam, putting a focus on glens history, low functioning borderline personality disorder. When James Piazza Glens Defence attorney attempted to call Cathy's mental health into question. He was blocked by the court from doing so. Never ass. The jury fully bought into Cathy's version. Behold, aren't you forgetting about one crucial piece of evidence? You mean that eyes, witness whose testimony really gave the prosecution story, its credibility, exactly it was Glens Girlfriend Heather who came forward to testify. She corroborated Cathy story telling the court that Gwen had confessed the murderous tour apparently giving the exact same accounts. Cathy and since Heather lived a thousand miles away from Cathy and had no contact with her that level of cooperation with sufficient for the jury, define Gwen, Graham guilty on all charges display

The lack of physical evidence in the case so just to be clear Glens Girlfriend Heather provided an almost identical account to that of Cathy right and because of this following the verdict when received six life sentences, while Cathy was given twenty to forty years for her part, the patient and the murders she is set to be released and twenty twenty one, the families of the victims, suit alpine manner for the negligence and employing Cathy and Gwen, and then ignoring complaints filed against them by both patients and employees. Alpine manners subsequently went out of business for the building now houses, a nursing home called sanctuary at Saint Mary, This case continues to be shrouded with ambiguity and mystery to this day. When Graham maintains her innocence and contain

to deny any knowledge of the murders at alpine manner. In her words quote, I can no more prove that I was innocent than they ever proved that I was guilty. End quote and won't Cathy is expressed her remorse for her participation in the killings. Doktor John pumped here has That quote. I would doubt that, to this day, she feels any genuine remorse for the fact that those human beings died. That's not part of her psyche. Those people dying was a by product of the interaction between her and her girlfriend so philosophy? I gathered you dont think the court came to them. Correct conclusion. Regarding what truly happened in the alpine manner murders, I am sceptical to say the least I'd I just don't think Gwen was capable of.

Carrying out such an elaborate plan. That seems to be something far more likely of Cathy to do given the nature of her pathology. They're, just isn't enough evidence in this case to indicate that it went down the way Cathy said it did. When coffee interviewed several inmates that new coffee in prison, he got two different versions of what they say. He told them really happened. The first bid Cathy made up the entire story to put Gwen away for life as revenge for leaving her for another woman, the second that she had done all the killings, but framed Gwen also for revenge, see, I think, that's a bit of a stretch. Your Cathy was a pathological liar, but I highly doubt she would send yourself to prison for forty years based on a story that she completely fabricated, Joe

to get revenge on Gwen for leaving her sure. But do you really think that it all happened? The way Cathy claimed between her second polygraph coming back positive and Heather's testimony a glance trial? I am inclined to believe that the court made the correct decision. Saying that glens telling the truth when she says she didn't even know about the murders or that wasn't even the active participant. Cathy's version could be true in the sense that she was the look out I'll Gwen committed the murders, but based on our research and Caulfield, just have to believe that Cathy was the ringleader of the murdered, but the reality is no one can ever know for sure what really happened when we asked Cathy's, Jackie about what she thought really happened and what she makes a coffeehouse theory. She had this to say: quote No one except my mom and Gwen, know the facts surrounding this case. My mom didn't talk to MR call feel

let the media values the role of violence to sensationalize. These stories, however, it doesn't matter If there was a mastermind, what does that mean? They were both convicted of murdering innocent people. I've observed mister. Feel an glens attorney, say things in a documentary about Glenn that made her appear more victimized. These same descriptions being shy, being abused, et Cetera, could have been said about my mom, but they were left out. I believe they were left out for obvious reasons regarding glens turning statements but left also by Mr Call feel to ensure his and my mom's role on the murder is preserved, fair enough. So what do you think really happened in the case of them lethal lovers. Let us know your taken. They come at section on our social media pages

thanks again for turning into serial killers. If you want to listen to previous episodes of serial killers. You can find them on Itunes. Google play some cloud stature and Spotify, or on our website forecasts dot spelled p r c s t dot com? If you like what you hear, please five star Review or tell us what you think on social media were on Facebook and Instagram as at PAR cast and twitter at PAR cast network. It seems simple, but it really Our shelf join us next Monday for a new episode of serial killers have killer weak. Serial killers was created by MAX Cutler and developed by IRAN Cutler. It is the production of Cutler media and is part of the park hast network. Is produced by MAX Enron. Cutler sound designed by run Shapiro with production assistance by Jules time. Hardly Madden and Maggie Admire, sir.

The killers is written by Donnie Gulf Stena, Jaunty Gray and stars Gregg Paulson and Vanessa Richardson. Remember that eighty three episodes of serial killers from the summer of two thousand seventeen through early two thousand nineteen that are available to you right now, Parkhurst actually released over seven hundred episodes from the back catalogue of sixteen different shows, including cults, haunted places fiend. Criminals and many more and you can listen to.

These episodes right now for free on spot, a fine and a where you listened upon, cast, don't forget to check out par, casts original series dog tales. Every Monday dog tail shares inspirational, true stories of loyalty, courage and sacrifice by some of the most heroic canines in history. No mystery Noma, Cobb, all heart search for dog tales in the spot. If I am and listen free today,.