A special edition of Slow Burn features Leon Neyfakh live on stage. In the second of two episodes, Leon was joined in by Emily Bazelon, Wesley Morris, Dan Savage, and Andi Zeisler to explore lingering questions about the Clinton legacy. Plus, Clara Jeffery discusses Hillary Clinton.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
The following: podcast contains explicit language still much more aware of abuse.
Of power and while I think it's good to complicated in kind of play around with it,
I think she had so much less power than him. Absolutely yes, that is using. She had lost Barroso locked thoroughly. Yes, you know we ve
the president of the United States wants a blow job who spoke to suck his dick another president. Jimmy Carter was supposed to drop by creating a blow job.
Burn listeners. This is the second.
Who podcast episodes between conversations from a series of live events that we put on at the end of
This episode of the podcast was concerned with the question of how inevitable to political turmoil of the ninety nine these was and how much of it was a.
Today we're gonna, look at the power dynamic between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky you'll hear:
bunch of interesting people on that issue, including,
com in podcast, host dance, savage and the new year?
Eyes: magazines, Emily Babylon, but
a conversation about someone we didn't get to spend much time on and slow burn season. Two Hillary Clinton.
During our event, in San Francisco, I talked to Clara Jeffrey
chief of Mother Jones, but how the scan
affected. Hillary Clinton and her role in the saga here is our.
So, a couple days ago, Europe become maybe policing at this point heroically
on tv, and she was asked this question about whether her husband had committed a of abuse of power in its relationship with monocle asking people got
really upset with her. I want to start by asking you whether you think it's fair were legitimate to hold against your Clinton. The things that Bill Clinton did
let's start with the actual incident, because she was asked in hindsight. What would you
say about this relationship that your husband had with Monica and was essentially apply, no power differential between President states in twenty two year old,
paid in turn. Isn't that terrible
I think the thing that that strikes me about this remark isn't so much that she didn't. You know
to cry her husband and say he's a terrible brother, and I wish we had never Matt, I mean they theyve. They ve made a compact
maybe when they first, I love, maybe along the way there in a kind of right or dire situation right at this point, she's, not gonna, she's, not
Do that if she was going to do that, she could have done it at any point along the way. But what struck
me as really
telling about that moment was that she
have a better answer. A more politically
bread answer, one that
Could imagine would be something like
firstly, many terrible choices were made. My husband made terrible choices, but
I have always championed a woman's right to choose her own fate, and so,
You know that there is a sort of line that she's had a little bit around this along the way words. I respect what
And the ability to make choices in this case about a sexual relationship without much Aubert, much more powerful man
I don't think it would have totally gotten or out of it, but I think that it was a case of bad staffing,
It just seems like at this point. She should have a better answer. Yeah. I had that's reaction when built them was asked about it on his book to her for it
children's Babo Euro now, Mr Novo, MR, not one euro of James Madison. For some reason,
same thing. It's like why? Don't you have a better answer by this point? Right I mean I have been you know, and this happened when I was about thirty years. All that was
one years ago I feel like I would have a better answer: are either one of them at this point and then answer
lastly needs to evolve with the times, and this sort of way were viewing. Certainly, the way
ski affair and you know when the broader etc, but I still think that they, they could have a better, more empathetic answer or even just a better political answers. The fact that they don't
I think, goes to the central mystery of Bam. As a couple I get
that whatever binds these two people too
other, and I think frankly, I think it's really reductive when people think
it's just ambition or some sort of corporate decision
to stay together, but whatever it is, the kind of can't let
law into that paradigm that they bill?
like my my my thing I wondered about is whether, like it it's a matter of staffing like theirs
when around heard tell her
to say or whether
I've tried and she just can't, and he just can't
exactly I mean I wouldn't they both had very
people around them along the way, and I would imagine that the people have tried. That said, I
think until the access Hollywood tape and
tromp at our bringing the plans accusers to the debate. I dont really.
That it had caught like it was more in the public dialogue, but not in the way that we view it now and certainly not with sea.
Functional ass. You know you are and have been to movement so you're at Harpers right one
the Omens Guiana bribe,
in covering the Clinton's fur ever since rant. I mean that yet
do you remember thinking about sort of Hilary
the UN's role. In
Billingham or covering for him in a during that scandal, and you know it in subsequent years I
For me, I have always felt that it was an fair, even as I did some
Do it myself to put his
transgressions and flaws on her to solve
they are in a marriage. They are in a political partnership. However, I felt there.
As the years go by the programme from that whole incident attach itself to Hilary and
some how's wiggled out of it like treatable, I you know, I think,
were plenty of people on the right and the laugh feminist.
That is why doesn't she leave em? There were plenty of people that fell.
All along that in a really
can discuss you. I think that, like she's, just a creature of ambition like she's only with them too, like claw, await a power, and so
all these are two versions of Hilary attack.
Two Hilary the real person
I also thank her her chief political fly.
Over the years has been that the
talk about, visited the travel gay rose law firm billing
She always react by name
I want to make it more private, give them less and the though this has never worked out for them, that
guinea is to be your instinct. And yet I completely understand it because you know
it may be vast rightwing conspiracy is too greatest a, but when people are credibly saying there
when was running a drug cartels and Arkansas Airfield and Hillary Clinton slept with, were substance Basra killed him or maybe she's an unfair agenda arena, that's crazy. So
whether you know that either there is crazy
happening, and you know if you are at the end of that for thirty years, you would feel relate offensive and hostile to duty. We can or should make
her based on the fact that she's married to him. It is a personal
this is a personal matter for her that, like, if you, as you have alluded earlier, like she hasn't left him by now, then clearly like her refusal to acknowledge or entertain the than the notion that he abuse of power
but this is not a political gesture, but rather dislike completely through personal reaction, and we should expect anything different from her.
I would not hesitate to say that anything that Ehrlichman does is helpless. I think she's
A very high
therefore, and cable woman, whatever her political and other
maybe, but my guess is that historians will look back on her as being this. Very.
Transition all figure of a man
and women and power-
no woman was gonna. Get to. You now run
the health care reform attempts the first time or be secretary, say or relieving get elected is this
for many years, unless you were the spouse of someone died. You know just
these opportunities were not available to win
and to grow mice
again in time like it I'm dead
wireless generation younger than Hilary, but from them
Guinea aim, I think fur
out of women my age and of different ages? They saw this constant attack.
On her for being too ambitious
You know I mean Linda Trip, said that user,
lunatic like the reason she initiated by the plans you that bill?
leash Libertine an Hillary Clinton, was his too ambitious wife. I think if you put it- and these are
expressions that never get attach too
powerful man and so
you know. I think that it is part of her calculus
She knows that she's a
transitional, historic figure or wants to be, or both and
think is sort of steering
ship as best we can, with other flaws that she has in a serious if one husband yeah. How much do you think
husbands, flaws and in her husband's history.
How much of a rotating that played in undermining her in the twenty sixteen election,
Is it all his fault, but that you know these are, has found out you now. I think she has false as a kid
There's all there's a man rehashed my sixty,
God forbid. We don't have eight hours, but you know I'd idea,
they there, two key things I mean a once: the spectre of the access highway tape came up and he said I ve been to which was previously
I am persuaded them to bring Clinton's accusers
music users to the debate
really neutered her and her ability to go after him, the way that he deserved to be gone
after a certain other things or certain policies that were really bill. Plans policies that people would lash out
at her out and in a way again, it's back to that. How do you you can't
undermine your husband in his legacy even
as you might politically then, and now have a different position or want to separate yourself or something.
Differently in hindsight, or just be a political creature, one of the things that have state
Mason doing. Other reporting for the show was accommodate Dick, more
I made you consult infer.
Were built on than any formal terms, and before that you he's
Look at all the scandals that happened in the first term: travel gauge, the billing records situation, white water, all Hilary, that's what he said. He said it was all Hilary
and it was I opening for me not mess relax it's true, but because it gave me a window onto a sort of that story, hatred that exists out there.
And I didn't really appreciate before this- that there's Hilary here,
That is the sort of separate from Clinton matron. Oh yeah, I'm curious to hear what you think about. Why
Dick Morris himself as a world class access, rape and just formal
but you know, I think that there
is a particular kind of sexism.
That is attached to hurry. I mean it. You know, I'd turn serve expressions of stick.
In my mind, remember someone saying you know Jill
Clinton minds you of your first wife
You know nagging you to pick up the kids when you really want to be here with your hot young, new wife, and I like that
you now or you know, the seminar see thing like fur,
looking the other way or whatever her position about bills, affairs and sexuality. Was it didn't even so much attached to him?
as much as it attached to her bean
Road seminar see baby closeted lesbian. Maybe this maybe emphasis so odd away her
sexuality became bound up for his failings, either
and no, I think, also other. There is a kind of generation all
access from man? Then? Maybe younger man better put on men on the left. Really there there's a certain strain
access among the laugh, that's relation its full flower. I think when it comes to hurry and its I'll get it, but
and you know again I'm someone who had more identify with her so,
to be applied
for women when the role the routes to power were very unclear dude
she was changed by
Going through associate first term when
all this sort of berlin-
opposition the day faces as an administration, but also she faced personally. Do you think it's
In short, I think she's a different person now
as a result of going through that I don't know,
comes to mind at another urgent arm of bill plans, Amelia and yet
I mean it's interesting because you know you, you didn't have the at length they cannot go by,
to her career in Arkansas. That I mean, I think, the attacks,
God even as First lady there, like you know not pretty enough southern are not like. What's with the chunky, glasses, erika, wrong Erika in all this, and so she foreseen by the way so yeah. I think she was kind of system
We bought all.
Hardened, and I don't mean that, unlike a shared and ten aware, but like you know, along the way, but also again, I think, she's a sort of naturally private person by,
each other, and I think that made her.
Natural instinct is gonna. Go in word and arm
the times, I've always found Hilary plan to be the most fetching as an interview somewhere along the way.
Pain trail on. Someone was asking her
comparison to earn her husband? She said you know I I know I am not. The natural
politician that my husband or President Obama is. I know that, but I know that I will get in there and work really hard and study really hard and do the best job. I can
to me that in part kind of spoke to you,
do you know a little bit more? The introvert becoming a policy want type figure and also again the kind of raw
The women of of that generation at least were put
to you. Now you couldn't be a super flamboyant
figure unaware that Bill Clinton was and hope to gain that kind of office,
You know Hilary was the one who was on the cover life at eighteen for her commencement speech Bill Clinton in Canada.
His way through yell armies, brilliant, I'm here, I'm not like you know he was not necessarily always the highest achiever despite being rose garden or that she wants to do her homework
and we are a political system that most often certainly last year's does not. Reward
people that want to like sit down and do the work so I'd. I always thought it was very time about her,
was there anything she could have said in response to this question that you ve got the other week trusted Henry
full circle is raining that she could have
metaphor familiarly, bring the temperature down around this hangover
that were all living through now over her scandals in his scandals,
certainly no way to answer that question that would have satisfied everybody. That would would be impossible. Like I said I I do think that
would have been a way to acknowledge
that this was
situation that should have never happened, that there were,
personal failings of everybody
involved and then
just as a politician Jakarta Weasel Norway,
the kind of where she is his lackey. Now I my husband ass.
Stand by him. Then, and I did, and I you know I. I really hope that missile and scarce not is true
Ok as she seems to be something like that, I think would be the best he could. Possibly there
for being earthly arrival, thought the third every
that was an interview with Clara Jeffrey from the slow burn live show in San Francisco.
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More code, slow burn. When we stopped in Portland Oregon, we took the stayed with damned savage, hosted the podcast savage love cast.
And Andy's ice learn a co founder of bitch media.
Discussion centred on the public reaction to the Clinton Lewinsky scandal. I start
by bringing Dan and Andy back the nineties when they were just starting their careers together
I have a particularly
if a memory from that period like something that you yet that you still think about when you close your eyes
I do remember being home with my son DJ, who is actually born here in Portland, awaits us you, when
The impeachment proceedings were under way and just thinking straight,
We got to get there, never gonna get over us faggots if they can't ever get over themselves and just the sort of torture the country
putting it to putting itself through because, as you know, in my view, at the time because of a fucking blow, job too was
say more than two more things:
as I now know, having just listen to the show,
because when he was nigh on a blow job, my word:
school pack a blow job
and it just seemed
do the whole country was running off the rails, because people did what people have been doing forever, which was there
socially monogamous, but not sexually monogamous Clinton's, apparently, and
There was a right wing conspiracy.
To take out the Clinton's and STAR was a part of it made finally found something that they can
hang their head on and it was built, wins erection, multi, purpose,
I remember- I'm unite, there's a lot of things that I remember really vividly one was just getting like having to
my mother, to stop calling me to ask if I read the latest marine down. You know at the time third way
Feminism was in the process of certain divesting itself from all the stereo
it's about. Secondly, feminism and sacks, you know sort of like we're, not fusty. We like
when we get down with the stuff. So there was a real focus on
how do we decide who
was really manipulated here? I think I'll bet
narrative in so many these cases and definitely in this one was like
four Monica. What do you know?
she was a really like victim
than this, and so I do remember having a lot of conversations about like those in the second
red, rent, yes, and so
There was a way in which
the narrative around Feminism and Monica Lewinsky became bad feminist through her under the bus,
but it was really a lot more nuance than that
certainly among third way, feminine
and and people who are trying to sort of figure out the sexual politics of
something where there were such a dramatic power. Imbalance
What was your Andy? What was your read on Monica Louis
he entered her. What would happen to her in this or what
did you did you see her as someone who has something happened to her, or was it something that she knew that you gave her control over? In your mind, I can't speak to what happened between Monica
and Skin Bill Clinton, but certainly she was far more victimized by the media and by popular culture and by the independent council. Yeah exam,
they like that. You know no one cared about Monica Lewinsky's. Well, being she was cannon fodder and that was really clear and it was I
I'm a year younger than Monica Lewinsky's tell. I felt it really acutely the idea that.
There is a point where you don't get to control your narrative, and I
could not imagine how she must be feeling
there are about you, how did you read it? What I thought the debate about
the power differentials really fascinating and reading Monica Lewinsky her own comments in vanity, fair, primarily about her evolving understanding about power differential over the years, has been really.
Interesting, but also kind of forestry.
If you're always allowed to sort of revise decades old experiences. What is that
sat whatever what has ever finish, what has ever done, but the whole power
four until the kind of
blew my mind, a little bird, because you know it
the President of the United States wants a blowjob who's supposed to suck his dick another president of the United States. He was Jimmy. Carter was supposed to drop by and give Clinton a blowjob like there are power
which was built into all by relationships in we're always negotiating with each other
and power in power in power.
Four inches or sexy
and that's too something the people were really in denial about the whole time like. Why would couldn't do this? With such a risk, that's why he did it
such a risk, why
would she you know shown is long, but what was up here? There's a power differential here, so it's a no go areas sexually acknowledged. Oh, that's! The go area for a lot of people sexually is where there is a power differential,
people are so aroused by power differentials that
in the absence of them, they will manufacture them, which is
Beady S M India s relationships, negotiated, sort of power exchange power differentials are all about power
risk endanger gets adrenaline pumping, it arouses us, it turns on, and everybody was looking at the Clinton Monica blow
the resignation, the affair in pretending that they couldn't understand it. As if
sport is worded play in their own sex life and in there
pants and a guarantee that they were
Andy you mentioned the through the media's treatment of Monaco Lewinsky we achieve a pre fastening clip
interview that Andrew Morton, who is Monica Lewinsky's, biographer official biographer, whom she spoke to at length for a book that he wrote about her came out.
In early ninety nine, it's an interview with him between him and Katy. Correct on this issue will display a tiny little bit of it here.
But she's, an ordinary girls. You could be anybody's daughter, anybody sister and it could one day
is she machine ordinary, predatory girl who set our sights on the president before,
of gasping and I'm
what you guys think has changed, will disappear.
That word predator. Yet when it comes to sex, we are all predators and pray weak.
Pretend that we are just one or the other is that is a Morpheus sort of flu
dynamic that sloshes around in all of our lives there
I'm I'm using predator and pray in this in the way
a consensual relationship. Sense, not predator pray in the sense of sex.
A predator as we understand it, but in
since she was talking about a consensual relationship between two adults and describe,
their behaviors is predatory as if that's
Annabelle or problematic, as if it isn't perfectly normal, we're not
located media culture even now, but back then it was like
it either be a victim or a predator. There was no in between. There was no acknowledgement of the two sides: yeah there was no acknowledgement of the.
You know? The new wants the ways that power shifts and the re
ethical area. The fact that you know something doesn't have to be. You know illegal to be ethically wrong
the wind power shifts she left the White House wearing that blue dress. With become stain, she had a lot of power at that moment,.
By possessing addresses, Linda Trip, recognise when puss,
Sorry about your interview with her that the dress was hugely powerful
and she had to hold on to it and preserve it to protect herself because it gave
this power over him right? Is it ok,
listen to your home in the trip up. A certain still hate, Linda Trip is absolutely you worked really hard to humanize, or no I mean I wasn't trying to like. Maybe
David and her defenses early with that. With that interview, I think I think you should take away from it what they eat
well, but could you not at that point? We like, oh, my god, I secretly recorded recently regretted her friend. What am I gonna do a role that day
eventually came around. I will. I will confess here that that secret tape, those sitting in my drawer there's not much on it, does not in the actual interview I did so Dodo,
you're missing out. It's all. It's all pretty much there, but I am
here's what you guys think that, like to go back like phrase, predatory girl
are we more enlightened now or what I mean? You asked the question. I think you know the like. Maybe in
ways perhaps, but in many ways there is still that lack of nuance when we're talking about sex
power engender, particularly in the context of a workplace? We
are still really frowned
two flattening the way that that power works
That way you can be, you know sexually harassed, and it doesn't it's not necessarily quid pro quo, its
Get me a blow job. Were you now, you're fired,
There are ways that people manipulate power that are really hard,
you judge, unless you
I've been there. How do you build so
people are drawn to power and aroused by power because to say,
to the powerful person. You may never act because you in just act
and maybe even unintentionally, without malice abuse.
Your power, because the prisoners succumbing to your power or in the thrall of your power, but the electors
drawn to your parent aroused by your power, what
where do we go with that? Because there's always gonna be power differentials in human relationships
why only work with women as a straight person, I again universe
That's right! I think that's it
fascinating thing about a lot of the conversations that have come up around me too. In all.
Sort of talking in a revisionist history way about Monica Lewinsky? That has to be parted
the equation, but in such a case by case basis in summer,
ways. So have things changed as a result of this scandal? I guess so in some ways for the worse,
but we do know we're still no use of fundamentals,
Conservatives running round, we still have this period
culture and evangelists Evangel local communities which are targeted at will
is this all actors and agents of desire in the traps at men fall into and stigmatizes women's agency and and their right to be
sexual beings and and to have wants an end to be horny. So
yet in some ways there has been progress in other ways: there's been regress yeah and then the word predatory comes into play here.
Because there's a way in which we still talk about sex
harassment cases when it's in a powerful, Madame a less powerful woman, the burden
is still on her like she must have
did something from him. You know she
I have known she could get something out of this, so I think there is very much still bat,
equation- and you know we have a media that has really sanction that you no more endowed essentially one up a Pulitzer. First, let shaming Monica Lewinsky and so that's very much a thread that still runs into runs through how we talk about the stuff. Do you think,
feminism as it exists. Semi racism must not monolith. Maybe this is not an end.
Your question, but what role do
The scandal has had over the past twenty years as a catalyst for who have. However, feminist thought has evolved in that in that time.
Do you think it has been sort of generating in some meaningful way like it is, it is, is the feminism we have today in any way?
rooted in our cultural reaction to these events for nice, Andy, eight
I think a lot of ways? Yes, because again, the sort of
the way that the media controlled the narrative and took it out of Monica Lewinsky's hands. And
whatever agency she had
and actually initiating this affair was completely stripped from her by a media culture that you know would
say anything or do anything to sort of humiliate her. I think there's absolutely still bat derive an
we need to sort of humiliate women, and I think we sought out, like with the prestige, waits lazy forward,
right, Cavanaugh, she's, really talking about you- know the laughter
the humiliation factor, and so I think that feminism has really grappled with
how to talk,
actual agents and balance that, with the way
that the media and popular culture have really not involved? In those conversations? Oh has elapsed question here.
Curious, if you remember, through the immediate aftermath of the scandal, so I guess I am thinking of the period Africans,
we're all in the Senate, and maybe you you might even want to think about the period after the August, two thousand election Africans would have left the stage didn't feel like the country was hung over,
stands to ensure that I found it, I find it anywhere
stench yeah. I found a fact finding a year now did not delude harassment, creeping yeah did it did it feel like people were still continuing,
the process in order to sort of this report
often the wind fatigue and Al Gore was certainly wanting to put some miles.
Between him and clear when he may Joe Liebermann a disastrous decision in his first decision as potential president may be met as environment. His bp peg because
Liebermann again shot Oliver Clinton, but
Hilary won her race for Senate, which meant that clear, really wasn't going anywhere and
So. On the one hand, there is a clear fatigue in everybody. Talks about some of the media was trying to
will that into being like putting the Clinton's behind us and the Clintons? Never let us put the Clinton Spinous, but neither do we allow the Clinton's
Ruby behind us. So I don't think,
anyway. If that makes any sense by its impact,
before the ship. That's not gonna make sense. I mean I do think. The fact that there was
already so much animosity towards Hilary and the way that the media
with a lot of
filled in the narrative was to sort of pit them against each other. There was a lot of shit
of Hilary too that didn't that there was an internationally that yeah. She also did it all wrong. She was supposed to leave him. She was to get a divorce. There was a narrative for the wrong woman in Harare, refuse to play her part, and she actually did.
Stand by her man, Tammy went out style ironically enough in the end, and she was ashamed for that. Neither of these women could do anything right and many family and it was such a switch from when you know Hilary first became first lady.
And everyone was like she doesn't stand by her man enough, like she wants to work, burn this, which and so
yeah. It was like
the media was always going to find an angle with which to make way
and the villain of this the balance of this story, I made my main viewing it as they wish. I didn't you guys, interviewed you guys for episode. Seven, the eminent ever said, thanks lecture being here guys. Thank you.
Much gratified now is dance, Aberdeen, Andy's ice nurses
Finally, in New York City, I got to chat with Emily Babylon and wisely Morris. Emily is reported
the New York magazine and co host of slaves, political gap fast
Firstly, the New York Times critic at large,
they were also interested in discussing the power dynamic between Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky. Though they took the conference
action in very different directions. Westley Morris kicked off with a confession.
I'm just going to be honest with you guys.
I totally understood Monica Lewinsky, I
have to believe that if I were her in that the exact same job I would have done,
Everything she did. I would
not have known about abuse of power? I wouldn't
I've known about what he was responsible for not give,
into as as an adult who I would technically worked for, I would have done everything she did. I would it
hold people at times, I'm serious and
There would have been a lender trip in your life too.
Yes- and I know exactly who Linda probably wanted so dented, did that make you can
him at the time, and is that how you feel about it? Now of your feeling shifted or or not exactly into
actually embarrassed to say that I have a very sort of out of body.
Experience listening to the conversation around abuse of power, I
stand morally white? He was response.
The ball to do as
I mean as a manager rate, but I don't like the idea
the people who knew her Monica
Whiskey talked about her is, though she were like a little girl and therefore didn't
have a say in things now,
when the trips mainline re about using child in violation of the room? The taking away of her agency by these maternal listing figures
and in the show there are many of them,
I mean I know that it is an abuse of power, and I can see that I just don't viscerally, feel that
When we talk about this, I do think the Bill Clinton is
his actual behaviour in psychology are: are a problem, a deep problem, but in the
that moment or the Spirit
circumstances that moves at that moment. I was
even then it seems like in inhabiting Monica ruins
you're saying that it was. There was more grey area here and that it was more ambiguous and so may be. The problem
for you with a term like abuse of power, is that it makes it seem like he had all the power and she had nine and root. What do you imagine you? Actually, that isn't eggs
She had power over him. I definitely think in at the time
it was amazing that she
she seemed to have affected him. These are all
his eyes a younger person and
bull that I was talking to at the time were really kind of into
and if you are there things and with it, you feel like you are thinking about
that you know now that you weren't they do not, then that you feel you should have been or that you didn't.
You don't mind me saying about what was missing in the response to Lewinsky was the feminist blogosphere was missing that nobody had her back and then you know she was character, Turner's, this kind of blouse,
lousy. Your word, like this sort of you, know big hair kind of marked the end kind of feminist these she had, and I dont think that
even ten years later. I hope that women wouldn't have put up with that, that there would have been a sense of like wait. A second
and there was some- you know- you did a great job in your up- a sort of showing that there was a heterogeneous response among feminists. But you know because
some really prominent. Feminists were clearly on Clinton side and seem to want to apologize
four ham. I think the mean impression
people had was that you know. Lewinsky was a figure to be dismissed like not taken seriously as she was expendable. I remember feeling that way about the feminists responsive being upset about it, because it felt like means
to me as well as Walker see an eye yeah that fell fills me like it was deeply absent from the conversation.
At the time- and I guess then the other thing is, I still much
more aware of abuse.
Of power Amal. I think it's good too complicated and kind of play around with it. I think she had so much less power than him.
Absolutely yes, that is you think you have us, but I was so sidewalk thoroughly. Yes, but
now and structurally been. He could call her and she couldn't yes, that is more welcome, do affairs way, but that's actually what s actually what Jennifer Bomb Hardener, who I interviewed for the show said I made this point or, as I look, what do you know what really sir,
my tracks is that she was so anguish.
During this figure is buried in a secondary misread. The latter part of the affair when he wasn't
just said, and he was keeping her arms length. She was like
and she would dispute that she was obsessed and she was going crazy, he's going crazy and to me like the fact that he was able to call her. We want to do so
tend to activate it whenever you wanted, and she couldn't was that exact illustration of yet? Why get people should do that?
Jennifer Baumgartner said, but that's every adulterous affair
like the person is married, something whose president's goose married? I just feel like the misfortune of the conclusions of these events, instruments,
the like generic, having of an affair between
older manatee, younger women,
ten, by your way, one of them as president, but you know,
was interesting about that time was that I was never
The translation of the problems right. We know much more about Clinton as a sort of psycho sexual figure now than we did at the time rate, and so
for better aware, as we well know, for better for better only for better lake, I feel like it.
Better, that we know it better, that we know it's
because I also think we didn't have the sort of cultural
sexual language in nineteen, ninety, seven and ninety eight and ninety nine
to really reckon with what was wrong
to be going on with him. We need a broader was in ambient thing, the issue.
Like she was lying like
these women were lying? You know
That was how we talked about them about. It was a huge problem if you wanted to vote for Clinton again, because if you believe turn took her to seriously, you could no longer do than as a feminist, and I think that was why it was much easier to figure
ways to doubt her just like to pretend she wasn't part of the story. It was so uncomfortable to have to take her seriously. How much of
inclination to find reason to doubt someone like when going abroad recorded Doubt College Jones or whoever
that comes down to the fact that it was the first democratic
resident in what is, since nineteen eighty
so many years have gone by without one
our people in the White House like we're people just
scared to lose that, like how much of that was at work in the sort of inclination to give him the benefits it out. I think there was
that, although that that's kind of irrational because
now Gore would have become the president. It wasn't as if the Democrats we're gonna, lose the White House. I think it also had to do with the discomfort of where the spotlight had begun. It began
Tribal in a way that you know the Mahler investigation is today, and I think Democrats were deeply suspicious of can star and unwilling to give an inch and so the fact that
we learned about all the sexual misconduct as a result of the star investigation team today and gave people a reason not to
believe it or not to credit at really and that's a problem because then you're not
dependency evaluating the evidence, you're just looking at it as motivated in some way. I also think
Another thing that was going on at that moment was: it was at the end of the culture wars. Basically
was the nail in the because what
in lake. This happened, push
The Gore happened, the nine eleven happened. This was where
the culture wars in net
doubly had to wind up in the oval office.
We didn't know it was the end at that point. But of course I mean it was,
culmination of more than Lake Ino twice
all thirteen fourteen fifteen years of real fights about sex and when
what was wrong with it in who could be said to
have it in who could be shown. Having new could go and watch people have it who could sing about having it and
the idea that all of this sort of government regulation around sex in our was happening out sigh
the White House, the
did. It was suddenly in the oval office,
happening literally in the oval office. It just
if you were a person who believed in a kind of sexual freedom or
something even remotely. Intellectually physics
like a metaphorical dream, come true, it was like manna from the pleasure palace
well, it was opposed. If you read it all, is an affair, then the framework, I remember,
over and over again the homicide. Well, if we were like the French, we would just be sophisticated and liberty in there
Prime Minister is always have, MR says, and that's just part of the culture and everyone is-
Adult about and moves on, whereas now I think
the morality of liberals has settled into a different place, given the pattern that we know, the Clinton was
That's your weight
Emily mentioned Al Gore for a second ago, you said like what what's the worst that would have happened like Gore live in been present for two years
private one reelection, and maybe there
The men, the Iraq war
look and see a today, but why but but but but that clearly wasn't
what people were imagining like it. When
imagined, losing too can star
Why what was at stake? What would have you will think was at stake and why did it incline them to forgive Clinton? For anything I mean, I think, people
all fell like ten star was part of a right wing. If not,
conspiracy, a right wing effort to oust the Collins and that you know
had been duly elected. I mean all the things that people work Trump supporters feel now about why impeach men is not something to be.
Rushed into or even necessarily contemplated, given the american
democratic structure and we don't lightly toss. Our presidency in the middle of a term
so it seemed out of proportion. I think the offence and then Clinton was real.
Popular Emily economy was doing well, his kind of triangulation politically was sick,
seating and making the Democratic Party feel relevant in a way that had happened in decades. Given you know how unpopular Jimmy Carter was, so I think there was a sense that
losing him was losing a whole future for the party, I'm not sure that is right. I mean you know. The alternate scenario you just played out now seems really great, but at the time did not have the Euro zone warming it didn't either way or when they think you know what I was doing. The episodes that covered that
after the scandal broke up of two impeachment and allow these ports kept coming out, your showing
people are still behind Clinton that ain't really care. I kept thinking
supporters, as wondering like, is that how
They feel now. How do you think, like that, that that tendency
give your guy the benefit of the doubt, based on whatever whether its policies are personality or just the circumstances.
What, then is that happening which some supporters now I mean
don't like I'm. I want to speak for them, but I do
think is really important for liberals to keep in mind right now, when some of us are mystified about how Trump supporters are sticking with him. That way,
you- want some one to succeed, you're going to try really hard to give that person.
The leeway to continue to remain in office in doing what they're doing and if you like, the results of the policies, you're gonna, be my
more willing to look away from the personal flaws into figure. You know, like he's
instrument of some of the people whose the party,
it supports him of this structure, that's behind
m- and you know
As long as the economy is doing really well and keys, cutting
says, are low and the judges are getting through. You know that
if you, those were all things you supported, you would be reluctant to give them up and the fact that trunk seems to have taken over the republican Party.
Rebranded, Ed and created people who are loyal to him would make you all the
willing to just be like. Oh it'll, be fine. If my pants, as president will be the same thing just like with you, no fewer upsetting
statements and tweets long line? As far as you know, I know it's. A grids agreed question
the thing that I go back to in moments like this is the OJ verdict would
the only time I've been complicit in actual culturally
local in San Ray you at the time didn't think Jade did it MA am unwilling to let our dear friend
We all knew he did not for the good faith. Explanation: first, like ITALY
like a mad. That's the story than we that we all that American now understand to be true about black people and OJ rate, though
route to a kind of palliative
this happened to run through this awful murder trial.
And because of incompetence.
From the other side from the prosecution and the car in the LAPD and because Johnny
legal genius yap we
were allowed to tell ourselves a story about a kind of innocents rate and I watched
verdict in a room full of people who just want to know what the verdict was going to be, and when the
It was announced the room kind of split and have it was like something out
up in the floor and the white people
over here and the black people went over here, and it was
The grimmest mom
of my life because I didn't- I literally will not literally at the figurative chasm, but they had had it
tap over the chasm get out of the room was just we
Nobody knew how to do it so simple
People would ever this moment is in terms of supporting Donald Trump. I have like I used to.
So be economy. A fan,
scale eminence half arches,
yeah I'm kind of still air, but but but in it,
I understand the insanity rate and I
their stand its. I won't even call it really insanity because, as a link with the ocean
verdict. You were standing with.
The awareness that are wrong had been being committed for hundreds of years.
And this seemed to be like the one
one time in in the experiences of many people in my life
other people's lives, where the just
system seem to work, and
the opposite is sort of true in this scenario, where there's like an endangerment happening- and this is a
listen. Who seems to be standing with you in your cultural endangerment? If Europe
person supporting Donald Trump,
don't know why we have to pretend that isn't a story you have to tell about the support rate it becomes.
Don't on this stage have to protect. No, I mean, I think, the to the extent that
as a white person who feels extinct or or through
and by whatever else is going on in this country. It doesn't matter what that guy says. He's always gonna represent he's always gonna.
If this policy don't actually do it, he himself at the
alleys on Twitter on TV is going
stand for and with you and that's one people achieve d,
magog status right when you are willing to make any excuse for that, because there, your person with the interesting thing about Tom versus Clinton, is do do you guys fuel the Clinton exe
boy or wielded or used his the
leave that we had in him the way Trump. It makes him
longer and in more impervious to every sort of moral, their legal thing you can throw him now
no that's something I have I came
anything. That would say that would indicate yes, but but I will say- and I promised Me- China neatly wrap up the segment but o J.
Is the one other example I can think over. Someone was framed and was guilty at the same time
I like that well, does give a round of applause every browser anniversary more all right, that's our show.
Thanks for listening
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Transcript generated on 2020-07-22.