One note. Before we start. This episode includes discussion and descriptions of domestic abuse. So please take care before going ahead. Pure listening to book explode her we're but there's breakdown a passage from their work to shows how they re onrush case your way, and I'm susan or lean today, I am speaking to carmen Maria machado author of in the dream house, in the dream has as one of the few nonfiction books that we're doing for a series? How did you end up picking this one? Well, I think that this book stand examination in just about any genre, whether its fiction, nonfiction poetry, genders studies, it's a remarkable book and a more about a very, very complicated destructive relationship,

In the dream house was named one of the best books of two thousand and nineteen by npr and the new york times and time magazine, and it won several prizes, including the folio prize in two thousand and twenty one, the book, is broken in too many many short sections which have their own tongue. on their own internal logic, and I first encountered at reading a section that I believe was excerpted somewhere and I just thought I need to have this book immediately need to read this book. Ok, here, Susan's interview with carmen maria machado, talking about a passage from the chapter called dream house as house in Florida. I have many questions. So, let's start with. this particular section, because it is a real hinge in the book yeah. So I have- started dating the subject of the memoir

an ex girlfriend we have decided go visit her parents, which is of a road trip, enemy, flew to Florida, where her parents live and that's where we be and it's also in second person- I'm all these sort of memoir passages of this book or and second person, and it comes not halfway through the book, but we ve sort of add up to it, and then things move very quickly downhill yeah. From this moment, it really does feel like things turn in a way that subtle. But when you look back, you think all that's where everything change you visit her parents house in the southernmost part

florida, you fought the whole way down at the dallas airport. She made you cry at a sam Adams, branded restaurant and several stranger looked over with judgment as depressed a napkin against your face like a consumptive, and you are relieved to be there. The book is these fragmentary moments tell me how you arrived at this form for this book. I've been trying to write about this material for a very long time, and I had really struggled to get it right Everything I wrote was terrible and I was in iowa city teaching at this youth nerd, Writing camp, it's like, I would have murdered done it as, and I was just spending every day sitting with my students talking about genres. You know horror, one day and science fiction the next and fantasy, the next in using in his way discussing how to think about things like plot and character. Sentences, and then

in a lot of time, walking around this little college town, getting like eaten alive by mosquitoes and thinking and at some point sort of the idea of applying things for the logic of like a haunted house story or something similar to the memoir could be like an interesting way to go, and it was like the key to understanding what at my brain was trying to do is as soon as I figured that out the book. It's hell out of me. I mean that the whole book to sort of emerged in this way that fell very correct. That actually brings me to my next question, which is. The decision to make this nonfiction rather than fiction. Well, I have written about this material in section what a discordant myself in general is that I actually find the one I'm gonna about a subject about which I have many complicated feelings. It's a helpful for me to write fiction about it. First, because I sort of have all the tools at my disposal. I can like inventing a coup.

sure bring in any sort of being or beast or events or do whatever I want to do, and that kind of, me space, tat kind of really figure out what I'm thinking so for this book. I think I am like I had written fiction about it, I had organised lotta my thoughts about it and it deserves it deserves. The dignity of nonfiction legged, deserved to be thought of it, not as a thing that one might invent in one's head, but a thing that actually happened and I I feel like for me because the subject of the book, like that was really important, where I was like. Okay, here's a look at what actually happened to me here. It is very plainly laid out one thing that popped out at me is there is this ambien dread and a pacing in this section in particular that for me

it is exactly the passing of a horse. She has an ancient cat who immediately tries to buy you. Her mother is bird like two thin and you are worried for her for yourself, her father shows up later pours himself, a generously sized cocktail. Her family is funny and mean they are different from your family, who you feel have- ever appreciated your mind and there is only her and her to parents and you're jealous. There is no other word for it. Are you a big horror, fan. You said your very inefficient and genre. Is that a favourite of yours? I am in fact they massive horror fan. I love horror, it's my favorite drawn up, so it informs you whether its deliberate or simply that something you love. So it affects the way right, because it has feeling where, as a reader, you keep wanting, they say, there's

something in the house run, has a huge horror riff going through it. They fees you chicken at israeli, coos, goose and cookies, and come on olives and being salad with so much still see food and risotto and fresh fruit. You laugh. Maybe we should move here. You say and her mother smiles brightly and for a moment you feel like a scene in a movie, a boyfriend being applied by the canary arts the mother of your lover. You never see her mother eat not once and that phenomenon of it all looks lovely, but in fact, there's something evil. Inside Yeah, you know so funny. I feel like as reader. My feet, great to read as a piece of writing where something is absolutely wrong. But it is not a hundred percent clear what is wrong

and I feel there's something about that that I find very obviously very unnerving, but very At a spying in it's own way that's also a part of horror that sense of atmosphere dread were like all these oh details are adding up to something that is quite correct, and it's like this weird sort of some of this arithmetic- that's happening Suddenly, you're like I don't know why, but I feel very uneasy yeah I mean, I think the thing about this that some interesting as ike. If you ve ever been, friends with somebody who's been in an unhealthy relationship that there is a horror of equality issue at where your leg icons what's happening because I viewing it from the outside and at sea clear to me that its bad, but this person unable to see what's happening, and it's just like they kind of horror fell more like the protagonist is making choices that having a lot of sense,

The present either as it more horror about a museum relationships. I feel like it's just right for an honest way, we'll be right back with more after this, I want to talk about some of the specific word choices and sentences and so forth in this passage, so one thing that stuff with me. After I read the book. I kept going back to this image, which was her mothers knife as it wraps the cutting board with unnerving precision. The

stay you get into a fight about almost nothing at all was sitting on her childhood bed. You decide to walk away, go said in the kitchen I'll be reading, you say, and you do for almost an hour. Her mother is standing at the counter chopping, something fragrant and chatting at you in a bright voice. Your girlfriend comes into the kitchen and asks: what are you reading as her hands starts to circle? Your arm, I am you start to reply and her fingers tighten her mother still chopping says: are you? Girls are going to the beach later her knife wraps against the cutting war with a nerving precision per group goes hard begins to hurt. You don't understand you don't understand so profoundly your brain skinners skips backs up. You make a tiny gasped, the tiniest gasp you can. I could hear it the tap tap tap of the knife and that struck me is this is just the way you build

The suspense and horror was it check off. Who said, if there's a gun, that it has to be fired you with this there's the knife and you think, oh, my god, The events of this chapter were so vivid to me that it very easy to write it in. This and is that, because this was as hinge this moment, where sir, what I experienced before this, which had been primarily of psychological and verbal and very cruel slipped, very suddenly into this very light physical abuse And the that moment of sitting there in her grabbing my arm and squeezing it. An eminently remember that bitten thinking about like trying to describe how my my brain, they truly, I feel like. I was I was not. It was like fully process what was happening.

Like what does it mean when you're in adults so you're, not a child fighting with a separate you're like an adult human who does not really physically fight? apology, touch people either like neutrally or with affection, but, like tat somebody with anger to touch them in a way that is like threatening? it's so alien to me. I mean it's as alien to me as I could possibly imagine it honestly and and also one of the things that feels very natural. Is I think when, when you have a traumatic experience, you often key, trying to make sense of it in little bits and that's what this felt like to me? Was you worrying the idea overnight, again. How did this happen here? How did I get here? How did it Did I allow myself to be in this use of relationship. And if I turn in this way, will it

more. So, if I turn it, that way will make more sense. It read it's like synapses firing. This is not normal. This is not normal. This is not normal. Your brain is scrambling for an explanation and it hurts more and more and everything is static. I feel, like the whole paragraph of my brain, responding to the way she's grabbing me be like that was such a hard thing to describe. Will you did that very difficult thing. I think of helping the reader not turn away in horror, but two lean in to the story of something d blade, disturbing and That alone is, I think, a huge challenge to be beckoning. Even when what you're doing

and straining is something quite awful. I think I think it really is about you know so much of this book, I'm a fixture writer by trade and much of this book was a learning curve for me in terms of transferring information from my brain to the page. Without that sort of intermediary affection, as like a thing is very existence, and so I feel for this being able to sail inclining to like that moment that she did. That thing. I need to write about that with clarity, so that Somebody else understands it. I remember like being on a panel years ago, like a nonfiction panel and they asked us, will have you describe creative nonfiction, but how'd you do I know, and I care about who it was, but somebody else on the panel said I think of it as nonfiction. That's true down to the syllable I love that. I don't let amazing, because it's like there's a truth that

MR made precisely crafted sentence there is a literal from journalistic truth or a sort of more metaphorical truth, and that not just the facts are true, but like the choice of words and the arrangement of the words and the sound of the sentences are themselves reflecting. That truth is, while which I feel it is like the hardest. I mean if you again, this section in particular its me using you know one two three, Many many senses to describe a thing that happens in a relatively brief period of time. Because I was trying to like slow it down and be like what was my brain doing. While this thing was happening, where I was trying to process it, but couldn't- and so I feel that part was like a kind of crash course and like how to get a reader to lake follow like actually a very complicated or very subtle or nuanced experience, and I feel that some,

where I was like how do I convey this brief moment of fear in a way that feels clear and understandable to somebody to whom it did not happen? This chapter both be no shows this this moment of transition to this other darker place and also even almost accounts for it, which was really written to me against. I can never know a lot. The wise of this situation. it's a lot of wise and ultimately never now and the challenge of because this is like your confronted constantly with, like the way the brain works in this way. That is very alarming home and stressful. now, here's carmen maria machado reading, the passage from in the dream house- You visit her parents house in the southernmost part of florida. You fought, all the way down at the dallas airport. She made you cry I at a sam Adams, branded restaurant and several

andrew, looked over with judgment as pressed a napkin against your face like a consumptive, and you are relieved to be there he has an ancient cat who immediately tries to bite you her mother is bird like two thin and you are worried for her for years. of her father shows up later pours himself, a generously sized cocktail. Her family is funny and mean they are different from your family. Who, you feel have never appreciate, it is your mind and there is only her and her to parents and you are jealous. There is no other word for it. They fees you chicken and israeli coos coos and cookies and come on or olives, and being salad with so much still seafood and risotto and fresh fruit. You laugh we should move here. You say and her mother smiles brightly and for a moment feel, like a scene in a movie, a boyfriend being plied by the

voluntary arts of the mother of your lover. You never see her mother eat not once. If you go out for a walk later, her father says drinking his third, martini, make sure you watch out for alligators alligators european alarm. They probably won't you. He says the glasses suddenly empty, probably the next day. You get into a fight about almost nothing at all, while sitting on her childhood bed, you too died to walk away, go sit in the kitchen I'll be reading you say, and you do for almost an hour. Her mother is standing at the counter chopping, something fragrant and chatting at you in a bright voice. Your girl and comes into the kitchen and asks what are you reading as her here? and starts to circle your arm. I am you start to reply and her fingers titan her mother, still chopping says, are you? Girls are going to the beach later her knife wraps against the cutting board with unnerving precision. Her grip goes hard.

Hence to hurt, you don't understand you don't under dan, so profoundly your brain, scatters skips backs up. You make tiny gasped the tiniest gasp you can. It is the first time she's touching you in a way that is not filled with love, and you don't know what to do This is not normal; this is not nor all. This is not normal. Your brain is scrambling. An explanation and it hurts me More and more and everything is static. Your thoughts are accompanied by a cramp of alarm and you are so focused on it that you miss her response. In the dreamhouse is available in hardcover, paperback and audiobook carmen's website is carmen maria machado dot com, You can visit us, add book, explode or dot com for more information. This absurd, it was produced by the about them julia about Harold, Susan and me. Next song is our production system.

rain attaka how she created the book explorer logo our episode. Our work is by polish jackson, and I made the shows theme. It looks is a proud member of radio tokyo from pierre wrecks, the network of independent listener supported artist. Don't find out more radio toby dot. Pham she case your way and I'm season or lean thanks for listening Radio do.