Lance Armstrong, the New England Patriots, steroids in baseball – Neil deGrasse Tyson investigates cheating in sports alongside co-hosts Chuck Nice and Gary O’Reilly, Dr. Lee Igel, PhD from the Tisch Institute of Global Sport, and behavioral scientist Lisa Shu, PhD.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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welcome to start off your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Nor talk begin right now. This star talks on the other graph taking your personal astrophysicist, and this is start talks. Ports addition, I got with me:
as always check now what's happening Gary Riley Gary just one case, people know you're a once in future professional athletes,
allegedly virtually well monitor things I wanted. I figured for one has the whites
future surpass Dempsey. Their footballer from the UK
I always good. I have you, have you on the show and a topic this week, the future,
eating on or off the field. Finally, cheating is getting a cheer ass. I was up with them
and so it's it's not going to technology that might enable you to cheat, but the psychology of cheating as well, so that we're gonna export
in these three segments and as usual, we
come in the region to find academic expertise of which is quite a,
in the truest area of New York it plays we'll get brain power? Is such a good place? We have Doktor Lee Eagle Lee welcome to start off. Thank you for having I over. I gotta get this clinical associate professor at the end, while you Tisch Institute tears for global support, they get their re global yeah
a as well yeah, ok, you're, restrict focuses and your research focus on medical ethics, especially with regard to sports bid.
Yeah it's one of the areas. Well, ok, so I don't know anything about this. You guys got questions lined up what are the ethics and because I would say that its very possible too. It's a lot more difficult to be ethical as a doctor for a sports team, because you are pressured to get
people back to work, because we do not care about ethics for here yeah, because lot of a lot of concern about cheating on the field louder than sort about cheating
players, but what about the doctors
about them, because the actual value that Europe can we get out there. So there is theirs incredible. Physicians on team physicians, especially sweated most, were hired by aims, and that is
what an enormous pressure to perform right and in defending the box, because
about all the on the different people who were coming in on that you got the player. You got the coaches,
you ve got ownership ever married general managers, the front office advertisers outside organizer and sponsors. Family members
everybody sort of common in rival random, going o king make that happen so to make
a call is its onto easy. I am sure you would have a lot of people upset with you like I watch now, one of them to me. It's a fascinating thing to watch football games, the blue tent. This is a new thing. Now, yeah player gets entered. They take
into the blue, tempt you care about you can't you see. What's going on in Europe was born out of the blue tat, but I got a feeling was gone on
terms like you think you can get back out there. I don't know. No, you can give me
objection right now so people, but we must do to bring about five minutes later after the commercial breaks. Sometimes it
that way it does, and it's like that and at the very high end you might have to.
The end of a season you might be a championship gaining might be the prior time if you don't pay the next game as an owner as a coach, I'm probably not that concerned. I want the result now, so this pressure just
early athlete they're fine they'll get through the game. They may not be. A hundred percent may not be eighty percent, but that would be enough to do studied ethic, narrow field,
it's one of the areas hide cover remains sports business and look at it and ass. I said you did you start as it were
of the area's it's one of the areas
used to know about its professor. You know so words, either three minutes or three hours, nothing,
We have answers right, Ahmed's, arising from that point of view that the chopped just asked you about talking to
men and in your MIRA. Let's come out of that and look at the sports business side of things. If I'm a bold governing
but the Irish Sea, the I double a fee for whoever it might be an I'm enforced
all of these sanctions. These bans, because of cheating, for whatever reason, is read, write and found his punishment.
But there I am being investigated for corruption for also
So misdemeanours and foul play: how is that balanced? How on earth do you get that to begin
right place and had to the people in Europe, because I just simple, I don't care cause you, the bad guy as well get a bunch of different things going on in again seemed kind of thing. It's happening at a few different levels and those pressures keep coming back in so
on one hand, when you talk about is the different governing bodies, those organisations and institutions. Even when we see corruption
windows ranks, there's still
I'm saying that the public look sat in terms. Those bodies is those are bodies,
bodies there? Still
What they do, what their guys lodges, what they stand for,
large eyes. What they stand for is still there's a code, that's there and that some place where
happens within that is. If we get to work on what about organ
position all I'll I'll, say I'm what what's a carbon you have kind of like a group think, but you know, for instance,
it's kind of a kind of well known their bill. Bela chat, we'll do it
ever is necessary, allegedly allegedly to win obituary.
Coach, unwillingly, trading and son of Satan
not overlooking the goals that are now by our joking about that he's, a brilliant coach plied it. We know it's kind of its kind of bandied about that he can be as loose.
Rules as as anyone can be because his deal is the end justifies the means. If we walk off the field, what a w then I did the right thing. You know what does
due to the team psychology, that's imaging, because Bilbil a check is really a special case and a culturally like he is, is such a special case, because the culture that he created and his
the ability to coach and to manage
bring people along when he also because a winning culture and its
different. He operates on a level that most people looking
measure to see him in the hoodie press conferences, gruff and all these things we talk to the players who played with him in
coaches with opening up this
somebody who is really special, and you know that he cares. So he can do some of the things that he does, because the
there is no where it's coming from and it's not just about is alive,
from man of its culture, its strategy for breakfast? And that's that's a Bilbil checks. It ok
Well, I've got my winded warehouse mentality in my organization, and you know what
but he loves a winner by all accounts. So if you're able,
to sit in the organization and structure it so as you ve still got winning mentality,
you're, not blurring the lines of well,
achieving, isn't it well, let's do it and see if anyone catches
how do you and can you
implement a culture,
in an organization and still have it as a winning mentality. Well, that's a great project is part
This is also, I think it was. The great homer Simpson had toy cheating if you get caught. Ah, but you when you say that it is a good idea, but it is really a cup
back down to, I think really that idea of culture and strategy in the relationship between them. There is a lesson, for instance, that you're a person who has this winning culture array lights.
Remove the strategy, but it's all about win, win, win, win win, but at the same time you are a very honourable person.
You will never actually cheap. However,
you create an environment that is so pressure filled that it incites cheating by your players. I mean, I think. Sometimes you see that
the educational arenas or forums like when a school is under a tremendous pressure, too
perform well on a standardized tests, and then you find out all of you
Is it a school cheated with the kids because they were under that much pressure there? It is
It's interesting. What people do in the moment right and I think it is
it is certainly in schools and in all sorts of cases where otherwise, good people get caught doing something that,
it just wouldn't do and if you had them in room this psychological, the hot cold environment in the car,
environment when we're sitting around go, would you ever do this? My goodness it we'd? Never, I wouldn't
If you do that awful thing, and then
moment when it's happening in the things that we do
let go of and in our better selves start
the shirt to go away and other things come out and it that's real.
We see whether and sports or it's an education. So how does your research play into this understanding really well right
How to make something like what people do in different environments, pursuers
no willingness to cheat when they're sitting in a room. One thing look at it.
What happens when you're out there in that moment, in all its conditional ethics, its conditional on integration, which are well situational ethic, which is interesting because from the business side, the and the management side, that's all about ethics. It's this! I did that to watch permissible,
what's allowed in certain
I mentioned the truth. Is there really is ethics and ethics is F,
so there is right, there is wrong and situational suppose, there's an ethics that prevails today, but it's not so ethical it, but it's no longer in a matter of ethics. In five years we
sort of work past it, and I don't know what an example of that non case. Are we ve behaviour of ok, Irene, sporting, gay and sports, we're like related title years ago, that would have been almost criminal right,
the males yards among them is just some sports where it's it's not gonna go particularly well. If you come out as a gay athlete. Well, that's too bad.
As I am coming out: good wages, a guy like you help us twenty years we have become less
hence his ties.
Certain elements of low level cheating, so in a football game. If I pulled in opponents Jersey twenty years ago, whistle stop foul goes,
me, no, I could probably get away with flopping during a game shunned upon twenty years ago. Now it's light
you did that I'm looking at her bothers allow I've seen you know when their position himself and near the net. I've seen guys Paul on there
you know that it is small and minor and you would never call it in the street right right
fight. That's just pardoning aimed right, but its clearly on ethical. Yes, clearly
to your point in parliamentary is line we all allow it now so do study the arc of ethics,
overtime, sure yeah, bigger, and that I think it's an important point, because you ve gotta have this context. Gonna have some historical gonna, try and understand out thing. A big thing is: why are people doing
things that their doing so we understand where we're going next
what is a big part of so what were ok of everybody's cheating? Is it your ethical responsibility to still not cheat, or is it your
watch responsibility? Did she like everybody else, and they then you get to that? Like? I said there Lance arched from, for example, when it finally came out that it was a cheat her and then he talked about it. When people sat down and
to him, he described how everybody around and was cheating the only way he can compete as if he cheated as well, and
everybody's cheating, the no one talks about it. Then the sport just becomes more and more of a spectator performance, and then you learn somebody's cheating,
Then what we have is an all sent allowed in the end, some really good point as what you just said:
everybody there before everybody knows that football players are on stairway. We want Jeremiads period, we want it. There's not one team in the NFL were somebody on that team is not on steroids, but to take steroids in baseball. You have ruined the support it.
We're going to get all sir
that's an inch of all interesting pieces, but on that part in the fell did
thing policy, wise about steroids and performs enhancing drugs, a boy
five years before mutually baseball ever did and major baseball had a figured out after the fact. After all came to light
and so that the public push back and
not said is really overloaded. They had a policy, is really look. We ve been busted.
These guys for
a good long time, maybe not
with, but we ve got a policy in place
So I can say: okay, there we go major league baseball,
different story. I think that that something that please,
with our ethics in Eurasia morals, I mean just having a police department. Even it
not enforcing the law and leaders of the two?
psychologically to say well. At least these guys are trying
National Hockley concussion policy, and I fell no concussion policy much better.
In writing about anybody out in the eurozone
get international get out again there than getting so in Risa. Have you have you come to a point where you think there
the way to construct an environment where cheating will now take place
we're making earlier on this issue. We wanted imports, is its
Back to the point you are making earlier
sure we wanted imports. Is it's it's a human endeavour whence about human perform
some part. The frustration about Lance Armstrong is not in one thing is
It took him a wild to come to and say this is what I did and that's what people artless
doing so much, but the other thing
Is that really we thought there
MRS incredible human performers in and most of us, have gotten out on a bicycle and written,
you're. Ok, I note that feels like to go to places in here. Somebody who did it at a level way better than I did an end. Could ever do the measure of how good
so what's wrong? It may, of course, look at me. I think that through central park on a bicycle, but but that we also need to think about that immunity
can appreciate Lebron James, they ve all been out shootin, who,
at some point or another, you ok, I get it and there's that level
format and when somebody cuts at it and seems
we gotta go now they didn't do it
in a human way, but cheating is here
it's a really human thing, when somebody goes over the line not sing, it's a good thing
keeping its human thing and are an that's part of where we look at what happens with cheating and ethics, because it's usually little lies that people start was an excuse and went and they may get bigger and they get bigger and bigger and bigger and dab. That's what
All this kind of stuff sits and settles, and I'm not sure that as much as we would think sitting in that sort of colon,
room which were to go and get it all out. Think when we re
sit there. What should happen to see
a little bit of the and want to pull you
look down, and I don't know what you're doing and we're on the development of that reminds me under this is now a decade to three decades ago, major league, baseball and important game. There's a pitcher who the other team accused him of rough
up, the ball with an Emory Board, allow yes there and he denied it and then the up. I went out to the mound to have an empty his pockets, and so he went at a party and quickly through the empty, born out of deep actually words Robin and up with everybody. It fell out of it
pocket on purpose, but the cameras autumn for with camera to seize the thing fly out of his pocket as it is so that became risen again. So I thought the baseball players would have
you know what you think about where you can. Actually you know people are human and that they want to cheat so you put in ways that disincentive eyes it like a camera at every possible angle. Will you might have cheated.
That's another way to do yeah now, in the other part of the coin. Here the other side of the coin is yes, I mean we also want people to not go so far over the line
in shooting that it ends up Alex
Cameras. Look at all these different angles so that that it's at least level playing for that's a thing about sports.
It's all really at a point that a level playing field and want to see where Peter what people can do within that level playing field. Where can you push the bounds one day? I want to see a football game. That's on a plane. It was not well
and he has pointed out. We are choosing back in the UK. We do I paid on the team Brighton, where the group was not limited when you're not pale down here. There was not a level we gotta take break. We come back will continue with our discussions on ethics, cheating in sport
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We're back on startup merely rested Tyson O'Reilly, yes, but ice. Alright, Gary and Chuck
it's all here, forgetting all here, bandies back together bad is back. We were continuing our discussion on the future of cheating on it.
Off the playing field, and so, if you ve ever cheated
an undersea there's, never when they just they just when the game positively, not possibly yes, possibly yes, as our former professional athletes here,
so we got to introduce somebody who's thinks about this stuff for joining us for this cabotage is least
Few LISA welcome that.
from the moment very much for having me excellent you're, an organizational psychologists and expert motivations for cheating to get ahead in sports, and perhaps
their things and you're the London Business School. So does that your ideal guest for this shell, and so let me just led off with a question this does almost everyone. I competed against. As I used to rationalize row. I saw them cheap.
I realized they cared about winning in any by any means rather than act.
Surely we are in the rules and actually went and winning can anybody cheat? You didn't work as I was so disappointed by that, and I thought what is coming through their heads about this, and so so. Do you study these people's heads likely right? I studied
mental acrobatics that we are able to perform internally to justify tourist thousands now you're good people just by the fact that we sometimes or very often times who break the rules in order to get ahead with me. Is there a specific personality that is more prone to cheat, because I've noticed in certain types of people like, for instance, you're, let's not say, were competing at sports, just a game of chess or checkers or cards, and a person is that type
competitor where, when they see that they are about to lose, they start changing the rules or doing some crazy. You know that much rowdy changes personality. You can't do that. You can't do that run your light. Whoa wait a minute. What does go so is there who are these teeter? Well, it turns out that cheaters are made cheaters
are not borne. Leaders are made by the environment, that's around them and then most cheaters, probably dont, think of themselves as cheaters, because no they ve virtuously see themselves as someone who just worked hard hustle does whatever it takes to get ahead, they may not even either behaviour or label it as cheating, though. Yes, we call them cheaters, we see from the outside.
That their behaviour radar and promised the ball or you know, rule boundary crossing a badge in either on. Had this water tight narrative, that's their good people who don't cheating
so they're they're not only cheaters their delusional. Okay. So now what what? What really what you just said meal really sparked something in me. You said you're looking at these people, you seeing them cheap and I've had the same experience, not in like Rome,
but in just competition- and I dont- want to win that way like to me. I don't want to win that way. But
I've always been a loser who lay there was a good, I'm not quite sure what I say this with no. That adds goes so. Nobody knows my point: is it possible, if need were a different person there? He would then say why need to cheat now
oh we say it is it. Is this a domino exactly so? Yes, I will look at this. Everybody around me is cheating, so they have a competitive edge which makes me less competitive. So I need to cheat now. So I can be competitive.
Because I'm actually better than that guy was he's just change. That was lamps, Armstrongs argument like yes, yes
around and saw everybody cheating.
And the only way he could hang with them is, if he cheated do so so that so
he got made in this sense right, yeah, that's right! It then
I recommend that you enter. You become very blind cited by what the neurons are and then what nor more just become. Ok, regardless of whether or not the norm is you know that everyone sheep to get ahead, so you don't even d this anymore ones or so
embedded in this environment, few overwoodie, normalizing a function,
will you be normalize, it is to function, is doing something over
here instead of over here, so you performed operations on it. Now, that's the new
I see where it is, and when you do that, you lose all sense of where the thing was or how it used to function. You you become a neat. This highs,
to the situation around you. So I mean eight now I think we'd desensitized too.
Some of the mine, a cheating that goes on not so much performance enhancing her but gaining
vantage during an athletic before
so whatever it is such how do you fix it? Don't just tell us what exists. Give us solutions here. Absolutely the lesson that we need to reawaken people.
Then. Why are you know once you are embedded in environment for cheating is the norm? You can't even the outside of that trade, though it does take an external environment or take them external actors from outside.
And today wait a minute. These norms are not tenable. They're, not okay, and everyone should be appointed by the fact that cheating normalized within this environment we continually be underestimated. How important the environment is as a driver of our behavior
we tend to think that you know we're good people were motivated to do well and do good
and that it doesn't matter how challenging how morally challenging them by romance would put ourselves into arch. But the fact of the matter is sometimes the number one driver behaviour letter the matter. How strongly we believe our standards will never ever change. We don't even notice them changing we become morally disengaged without noticing report
where'd you get it am. I cheating, if I figure out a way to gain an advantage over you that the people who make the rules have not yet noticed should be outlawed. Loop, hauling move up that Opel. So let me make this up. For example, let's say I'm about to go to it a swimming contest and I take a five minute hit a pure oxygen. Ok, that's that our children, a drug tat. I was right,
but now I have oxygen completely round me and item of that would work, but this amazing of asthma imagine it does and Adam enhances. Your point has an end. I win. Did I cheat guy depend on whether a guy by redefinition of the letter of the law
bear it and, along by the letter of the law, you had not cheap from vague out lied to you from doing that. It take action, but by the Spirit of the law. Absolutely you done something to gain an unfair advantage, as though depend on how we define the for ourselves and as individuals were tempted
to cheat. We would definitely defined by the letter of the law. I got another example the NASCAR, through that the very strict rules about the size and proportions and wait and everything and how
a bigger gas tankers. Ok! Well, I've read about this, I'm an anthem that NASCAR fanatical by nor a couple of things
and apparently they designed the sea
whose from the gas tank
to the engine
to be really long: a white distribution.
So no, no! No! No! No! It's Morgan S! If you, if you will you fill it, you gotta fill the host rose to go now. If you take one less pitched up because of it. That's your rate, so
that's engineers being clever their job, but but you still saying it's not fair as nights ago, you have to ask you something
level playing field? Can anyone else have actor
you engineers, who, with yellow soup up their vehicles,
but I said as much eating their because I'm smarter than yours, Maya, that's! Ok! When we discuss this is cheating
assume a random act or does cheating come in
sit in like a recognisable pattern
our union. Unfortunately, cheating is not a random acts. I mentioned earlier that cheaters are made. There are not borne cheap, but once we find ourselves in a situation where we need our trust path, the moral rule we morally disengage. I mentioned the mental acrobatics,
we're were able to convince ourselves that our actions are actually moral and ethical, and it's ok with that represent the
downgrading of your moral standards, though, that you don't feel any discomfort with your sketchy action and the moral code that you you know. Thank you at best, the over time. We keep one. When we make it,
uses for achieving behaviour. We downgrade are moral code of ethics. We think more things are morally permissible.
When this happens every slogan, that we leave the mine, a downward spiral ever decreasing ethical standards, more permissible, behaviors and greater disregard and a bigger blind spot or moral,
So let me ask you days, but women MIA. What is more,
and what is it more effective means of stopping cheating is Ed group. Shame, in other words, to be found out that you're, a cheater amongst your peers into
tougher the embarrassment of them now, knowing that you are not what you are or a police action for, is
if we're all on the highway in everybody's to an eighty five miles an hour you feel like whereby going eighty five miles an hour, but then you see flashing lights in the distance. Everyone history,
break because they all know they're doing something wrong,
everybody knows you're doing wrong. Otherwise it will continue going eighty five miles an hour right so that the police action, but the group would be
if you're heading down the highway eighty five miles an hour, everybody also insisted miles an hour and they're all beeping nor horn at you. Like you
breezy maniac. What the hell are you doing, that abolition of public safety and did you desire will clearly on those of the role that we stop, which is more effective. Public shame is super effective. We are thought or animal a hand with about to be the most threatening thing that we can perceive as a set of eyes on ass. Right, though, are pure group judging eyes, though one that the right of like one police officer like all right I'll pay the fine, but that's really about avoiding this behaviors I dont get caught, whereas the threat of public shame is as though this were all you know. At times,
if we were wired to really want a boy, the bad thing, with public singing from our appeared, a safer incidents are active, so France's I've been cheating for ten years and got away with it for nine point: nine nine.
All those years would it be the best course
election to actually punish me because it
do you tell everybody in the working world what I've been doing? How successful I've been at it and you
so tell them where I filed, which then allows
the advantage to be a better suited than you your first up. So it is that then punishing always the best course of action. I think the punishment that a greater precedent for the future, though, and that is relevant
how you of the public of Europe Demesne noticed day. That cheating is that ok and really sanctioning the behavior, so you're setting a precedent for future groups that the food not excuse
all that is not how we get ahead, except
You only know when he's cheating you
no that he cheated when you find out. So so it's it's a one, tailed statistics
distribution here only shooters, you shouldn't do it, how about all the other people who are actively cheating right now, and you have no clue where this there's no there's, there's nothing
to do with them cause you don't even know who they are.
I have an idea that so the argument there would be you make even greater example of the people that you catch
as a warning to the people who are already cheating and hopes that they may say. Look I gotta stop this like what was the woman to track star she was.
The love about Euro mean flowed. Your whole job low has with the nails, Jonathan Ale, stood here, and you say her name. My heart sank just a little bit because that's how beloved she walked and she had to disappear. She had to go away because people loved her so much and when they found out that she cheated- and she was a yes, I'm sorry I cheated, but we're hormone-
in a testosterone. Louis was something I wonder whether he has. It was some kind of substance that she was taken now you're going to business school. So do you also consider free
apple how and why Volkswagen cheated
on their emissions standards right the thumb, town, companies and individuals within company tell them that their cheating.
Tied to a greater grid and a more bread mattered. They managed to do this oftentime. They say you know we're creating value for shareholders. We have Ado sherry duty,
it could take care of the narrative you hardly ever rationalizing the auxiliary. That's the narrative. The mental acrobatics are amazing. Eight provides its water tight. Cues bore the individual to justify themselves that actually my actions are serving a greater good and you know
wrong, not to Mr Ford powder psychology, which works become very technical and really feeds upon it. I'll go
Well, I'm the guy that cheaters are made. They are not born, so it takes a couple of the adoration moves or cheaters tear. You know continue along that down
we ve got to make sure that our shareholders,
able to re, read, decorate thereof, thereof, mobilization homes and that these will be bogs, rallied boats lodged by large progress and many were doing a public service.
Are we going to China. We ever gonna, kill sport of cheating or do just say, give up. Let em all have a gun guy
that's a big lion. The hurry looks think about this. The stone that for us
and so all the managers other partners all the owners of these team,
Will anyone ever just there was a give up on this, because the two messy you you know, I just start a new hurry. We gonna cometh August actors that better to walk away, make a fresh start. Then it all these people were invested really in doing whatever it takes to get ahead.
Though you you're talking our forming an entire system might grow is also your answer. Is it's never gonna happen as long as there's this was money involved? Is never gonna have sought, so I would I would I want to, I think, there's a middle ground, not exactly the middle, but they do no more
in your direction of honesty. But still I like, I want to leave open ingenuity.
I just want to leave that open. So here the rules of the sport- and I do so- I figure something out really clever
and it gives me an advantage- don't punish me say: hey
I was really cool. That was brilliant. Maybe
it can be shared with others. I'll have a problem that the whole sport benefits right and then the then that the paying public,
These are better performing all. They shut your loophole down,
and then go right. What those out that yeah that's attacked. Yes, that I dont know is in the best interests of the sport. If I figure out think about this people, tundra steroids in everything, let's go back in time. If I am the first to figure out, then if I lived wait, I get stronger, thereby making me better at my
bored. Did I just cheat? No, you lazy, ass, didn't figure out that that would be. There would be some there could work. I figured it out, so I
I have a temporary advantage over a certain amount of time until everybody does that's kind of how that's been rightly so so and no one said, wait whipping weights
illegal, because you, by the way, you change your body of chemistry, which you did you change your dear molecular constitution, which you did right you? You change your diet, because you needed higher protein
What you did write this stuff? You did. You yourself know cycle spheroid. It's called pumping iron, you did it. I don't want somebody to say that I cheated, because I figured out that that was something to do
How do you feel about that? So I think with key to your argument about it. The temporary advantage treasure still
I repeat there is that the tide can ride together.
And everyone can serve these big waves move bigger ways than before, and I think
that the narrow down like innovation, more bad sheeting. Ok, that's good! That's where, whereas the stairways, the problem with the stairways, is that one?
There are health threat, though you are putting your health at risk, which we can never o Connor.
As a sanctioning body for ready to India and to giving you that advantage inspires others to put their health at risk because they now have to compete with you. I don't we gotta like wrap up this sad, but but Germany, like final thoughts for
you told me bummed us out this whole, certainly give us something hopeful that we can close out the segment with
take as much time as you want, because we're out of time so that'll be cheating.
Mercury, then to be hopeful, I think so many organisation of you no schools, because the governments are designing their organizations from per first principles and mine trade from the very top they care about the values that they want to be, and then the eight years that map onto those values, though having that want to wine correspondence between what you believe and what you want to see in the behaviour of people who work in the organization. I think, though, importance
that were making you no movement in that direction. I'm not a thing is that I think we were more aware that we all have binds try whether that, by these words,
promise. You know, I'm a professor. I know that I am obliged to one third of the class and I also call on the left the classroom, something as innocuous that too much greater by like in our moral decisionmaking. I think that with the authority were becoming more and more educated in all the things tat we don T and that one of the first steps to notice thing be moral trespasses. First, a bishop noticing
the organisation by the company name just joined, might have morally questionable standards re because without noticing, you would just get put into it
the fact that we have more education around that, I think, is a very hopeful promising direction for the future. Everybody a whistle blower
I swear. I don't want you to think about in the future the day we then have designer babies, you can design a bit
it'll be exceptional at soccer and ask the ball is that cheating genetic profile is still human, but we
Bali that for you, but this our next deem editing, see disease genes? Any old saying that why is it cheating born this way right, you're, not you!
nanny by you just u their parents right then. My part,
did. I was just born like it's. Ok, we got it, we got a break it they're, so LISA. Thank you for joining us with we'd love to
tat back into your expertise at another time, because we think about sports a lot
in these additions yeah and what would definitely find you again,
Thank you. So much were high meat that has been so much one of us up when we come back more start talks for traditional
We're back on our dog final signal. She do Gary Jerk, guess some serious content that we just went through. We have a mean doktor, LISA, Shoe and Lee Eagle were discussing cheating and the forms which comes forward at adjust. If you cheat, if you gonna, let you took note differ have to begin
look look the cosmic pictures on it. I know a lot of you very proud of how you gonna criticise my handwriting. If you dont cheating,
We are hopeful that the world is your handwriting arrived. He would even third great what just go so
Kay changes are made, they not both right and there.
Mostly made by Bilbil Chet,
oh the Eagles. Finally, I'm not. I think that for me,
the big lesson there was honest. People can she'd by talking themselves into thinking there, not cheating right and what we within mathematics
we called it? We normally taken. We normalize yeah you're, not win reference, achieving a reference to mathematical functions if their functions like in another place right and it has to be sort of scale properly. You sort of renewable lies to that new place and then all the things reference that, in all the new parameters,
guys leaving the old ones behind. So if you re normalize your moral code, you have a new baseline right and now you,
be cheating at the baseline. You won't even college eating. A dab was fascinating to me to learn this now I mean that in the mental gymnast
the people go through. Then again you lose sight of what was originally considered zero. That's the drift yeah yeah! That's the that's the slippery slope, the drift away from from you,
moral code from your from your computer, like everybody around Eddie, was cheating. You re adapt to become part of that environment because you can't be compared to that one.
Innovation, but another one is you just want to win right? It's not just cause is not only if everyone
so doing it is because you want to come out ahead of everybody if they would also do what you do on it just so you don't lose much by as much as they had any means necessary.
Yeah and with the end, justifies the means justify the means. What what I dont think that a good answer for me when I noted suppose you cheap without breaking the rules,
right see NASCAR example with it was going along fuel locked along fuel wine and cause I pushed. I am the first guy lift the one where the personal figures out. If I go to the gym ray and lift wait, I can get bigger muscles. Why and I kick your ass would be faster than you re stronger than you and
that gives me an advantage and by the way, I'm changing the chemistry of my body. When I build my muscles relief went my bodies, oh shit, I need we need. We gotta build these muscles. The chemistry changes we
Did you see the proteins in different ways to build high across more a bigger muscle tissue, and there you go? Is that cheating,
no I'd singling out. So I say now because, quite frankly, what you're doing is I called
ingenuity. I don't call that that's what,
so here we have an elegant
The issue is the two sides of the coin of one is the letter of the law. The other is the Spirit. Yes, and this is where you get arguments on both sides which will allow it. Let me play doubles advocate here. I think that there is a really believe this woman should put him on the tape. Ok, ok is lifting weights and drinking a cup of coffee in the morning, really any different from taking steroids. When you're both
chemicals changing your body to give you an advantage over whatever you would have performed without it, the both chemical changes in your body
except the happens, to be a law against steroids, there's no logging, caffeine or lifting weights,
Oh, how arbitrary is this rule?
I've been here like picture. I think the login steroids has more do because I used to be a person said, and I think we did a show where I said I don't care. If
actually let him out of their royal, because, quite frankly, what I want to see is optimum performance on the field search. You will see from the eighties setter nightlife skip yeah
HANS in France, yeah body builders die has yet, and so the two of them in one of the skids, it's an olympic or some competitive event where all chemical enhancements are allowed in fact are encouraged. Okay, so they cannot extra big and learn how to do a dead lift.
The amounts it he pulled his
the two arms of the waves and blood is spreading out of his shoulder
the two back to me. This way, weightlifter city, where without saying I'm interested in white, lived up like you know, I I I changed my mind
as I forget, who we were talking to from and why you university, who said the real problem, is off the Catalan, Arthur Kaplan said the real problem is not the performance, but the fact that it is harmful and your sanctioning harmful behaviour by car and whose cousin, I think,
we still is director of medical ethics and why we will again way: ok, right, Romania, or so you know we had a companies would have. Basically, he was like look it's about the fact that these are dangerous drugs at your saying it would be ok for them to use, which means that young people who now get into the sport are-
also gonna use those enormously suppose I get to
ram your dna in utero. I have no problem with that. Will then ok see, I think that's perfectly fine like if you know I mean clearly you'd. Look at me. You can see that I was designed to be a superior athlete while I was in
then he woke up are not so they don't. Let me get to that point where we pull the rug from under niece cheetahs aren't boom o Reilly changes that Frau she does. Our borders
well. Well, you're, not you know, you're, not you all that somebody else right.
But if you do that you only if, if you would like
or even yeah. You can retrofit this. Apparently, what
looking towards doing that. But if you were to be able to construct with this in mind, but we do that now we do with diet and sleep
in certain my point. We were doing what we are already doing a marathon Wednesday when they carbo lowly the night before they are completely changing their chemistry. Loading
six sugars into their bloodstream, ready in it
possibilities that are harmful to their body. Now. That's the point.
Actually, no, actually, I can claim to have ever seen a marathon runner. When I say that's, a healthy hurts served so little, I'm entreated what the future of that will be. The end of this would intrigues me now
the thing? May? How can we set up a new rule on rule of competition elsewhere and lets? Take our cue from NASCAR in NASCAR, the car is inexact prescribed, wait right, ok and if I think
Think of your light driver you gotta, carry extra lead in are so that every car ways, the same even with driver,
I believe I've if my memory serves. That's true, is certainly true and horse racing. Yes, ok and get that you gotta, fanning, ok, put the good the pouches have carry weight are so maybe anything
the lap right. It doesn't harm you in any real way. Anything is allowed, provided everyone knows what you did gotcha, then everybody
same playing field, your disclosure habitat. Then this spirit of cheating evaporates completely cos
Peters, are doing something and you dont know they're doing
right a reading. The answer of the palm of your hand during the test. They got some here s your balls of what a pity it gradually under the Likud it whatever exactly right, maybe that by the way I have to do,
We will at last be ball. I wanna see thrown where they lay the basis for that
kind of what they do, what they like their finger: TAT man and you ok, you got a rumour he's dead. We swim from Britain, you know the rule, not ok! You can touch her think the last. I knew the role you can touch a finger to your mouth. The pitcher can do that as long as you
I dont amount. Oh right, I would say a flight time delay gray between the spit they're, the fingers, thereby leaving let desperate
you got it really Hocker various levy or thank you to work your way.
After the man is still haven't there, when you pig when you touch the boy ill, I know what to say these: past, nay, nay, nay, nay, nay. The sort of thing is, if you, if you want to create a chance,
each within an environment that you know is rife with cheating. Is the change in a come from inside or does it have to be an external presents the changes? What is going on in innovative how about this dead falls?
we think first break Dick forest fires very fast ready. I cheat when he introduced the February flop to the world say once again
the call that ingenuity limit our money, who looked at it out of the box and their work,
That, though, is not enough and he at the hijab. Yes was previous
to him always done with your belly curling over over the river s face to face down, and then he decided to go backwards over the bar now you know why that works, a t. Why please do what matters is how much energy does it take to elevate your centre of mass, the Centre of Mass of your body if just standing there, the centre,
This is like in your naval somewhere in a set of your body on the other side of your naval. If you curl your body, making sort of a semicircle
This set of mass leaves your body and is in the air in between the curved of your body. Ok, the centre mass
the centre point of we're all your mass
if I rotated you you'd, rotate around that point. That's ok! Since your curl did so what so forward! You can only be
the true waste and a little bit forward on your honour on your torso, but your knees are not bend in that's right the other way, and then you can't been that way. So you need have to go over straight, whereas in the forest, where five any flexible athlete can ban backwards from their spine, I kick
then at the base of their spine and abandoned the lease. So they can create a tighter curl over the bar sending
Senator Mass below the bar while jumping to a higher bar than ever before. So he figured out the physics- and I have said continuously that the poles
he needs to do that. To add another foot to the world record. They all ready backwards to the ground were going up, but what did they do they twist and turn?
do the hokey, poky railway guy. No element of what's will support that right and I have always said that the powwow Sid just stop
but I think she's, but I think he was no man that US boys excuse me scheme is that sport Buzz Aldrin poverty when he was in school
Ok, a man on the moon, so I just can't you just got here,
the boys does. That is still a good excuse me he's everybody's boys Buzz Waldron, ok, ok as unjust thinking, we get chapter one the bud.
Lightyear playing at once, so one thing
Did he cheek? What should have happened was
he should have said to everybody.
I'm going over the bar this way for this Olympics.
Could you do it or not? Right
the rules it store, but none on all the wizard smart enough to figure out all the ways you can break the right
Products are ahead of the rules is breaking. I would even say: epidemics are ahead of the rules. So if he said that there be interesting, girly rowers right,
they would have a they. Would Greece a smooth surface?
and their leather pants, with sly, back and forth on the grand jury search results until somebody
A mailing chair, a jack all right that went right.
Not nearly as sexy as Greece that leather pans hey. What are you gonna do? Is Greece delay
So I want to say- and I didn't know you were gonna- go right. Why our great to aren't,
Chris, no undermine
what did I know you were gonna leave it alone,
I don't want to do is say we invented this new thing ran here. It is, and you can fly.
Followers are not by this we're we're using this National Mps and it's ok with these rules and so later on edge. They want to change the rules it another one Harvard ok, they're track they had they got engineers. Have we want the fast track in the world, how we can create that, so they took strobe escaping photos of runners running on pillows and running on hard concrete and they looked at the muscular,
go at all response function to that, and they said we need the best combination of rigidity and softness, ok and
a invented, a new kind of track that returns more of your energy to you.
In like us, bring the basically check like strategies that good rattle your failure. Energy that you're wondering also there's no advantage to any one runner king all
Why can I watch what happens? People start Breakin records. I say and the
cs as we're not gonna records on this track, so embassies tracking just use this.
When I was in college the seventies. Yes, they had a thing called a limb preen, and then it was been Britain limp
then tartan destroying rather rising track? Yes, yes, so yeah, my father ran track on Wouldn T
surfaces don't owes indoor. If you fail, you got splinters all up your leg, so when he too, when he went to the
should agree stop when he found a torrent drunk. He thought he d
they want to have a re Christmas bouncy was
you can roll on it. You could fall on it because it was just gravelled face compacted gravel before them.
Also, you wouldn't need spikes. You can still use cleats, but non cannot sharply any to the smaller societal airlines have was area right
they have. So if you're, if you invent a new way to do it, I think disclosure is what it's about
in that way. Everybody has the same rules and it's up to you whether you want to follow so. Let's get you start talking, cheater rule this out it right. I may listen. That's you see that happening at just until we get a rapid up, but you look at football and the amazing catches that these wide receivers makes. Now
where these sticky gloves, but now seen those gloves we read what they have. You have ever touched a football wearing one of those gloves.
You ve been looking at all about. I love you. I think I used to put googoogling what it used to put a stick em right put, but these gloves the it's a very tactful exact surface, but my point,
As everybody has the opportunity to wear gloves, are you got? There was no longer cheated there? You go level playing field,
our rural development has been all this time to get there get right. That's what it's about the level playing field episode and Ardour Bulgaria's Jacques thanks for doing
As I see it has always. This has been star talk the athletes cheaters
addition, I'm and near the grass ties in your personal astrophysicist. As always say. Looking up
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-19.