Neil deGrasse Tyson explores the future of clean meat and animal agriculture with comic co-host Maeve Higgins, author and animal advocate Paul Shapiro, and Dr. Liz Specht, Senior Scientist at The Good Food Institute.NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free here: https://www.startalkradio.net/all-access/clean-meat-with-paul-shapiro/Photo Credit: World Economic Forum (File: The Meat Revolution Mark Post.webm (7:53)) [CC BY 3.0 (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)], via Wikimedia Commons.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, commercial free welcome to start on your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide? Dartle begin right now welcome to start off, I'm your host near the grass Thyssen, your personal astrophysicist and I'm all the director of New York Cities, Hayden Planetarium, at our can museum of natural history. My course today can we
because maybe get a good until long has been to yeah? I know I was in Ireland. I had my sisters that you wanted to hear. Ok, do not I've retro start on your host to the progress made in America. Then very title. I did your Parker, you Dave by Doktor. You did great, I mean my pockets is about immigration, and your point lies where all from Africa I was really blew my pockets out of the water. Everybody is an emerging from a very young age. How far back you look exactly you come to me. Tell me your name, written you're, not your native note, nobody's native might not even that. Columns of native our native. That's true. Well. You know, I thought it's a hot topic, natives of Africa right. If you want to go all the way back right, right, which is why it was cool when the English went and claimed Africa so
we're, not talking about immigration, which are about the future meat meat and meet as it might appeared to her a future in the laboratory at circle, bring to Paul Shapiro author of the recent book T meet how growing eat without animals will revolutionise dinner and the world, and we ve got in studio to give us all the details on the future of this sustainable, humane and take tastes? We are indeed it is made up of six open. Welcomes star talk, not your first rodeo with us. I know I am very honoured to be back younger and so an excellent. You have area title vice president of policy at the humane society. The United States. That's a thing. That is a thing amazing. I know, but it's great to be here and I'll. Tell you that if you go by
to the time when we were walking around the plains of Africa when were is. Are the cradle of humanity? Never That time have we had the ability to divorce meat production from live, animal raising or killing and now scientific advances are allowing us to do just that and as a lot of reasons that we want to do that so, for example, neo. Your brother from another mother bill Nigh often points out that raising animals for food, one of the leading contributors to climate change and of other pressing than environmental agriculture in general, agriculture, but especially animal rationally, animal raising right and so one of the solutions could be just eat less meat and enjoy more plant based foods. That's agreed solution. We ought to do it like that, something We all know, unlike not many of us do mainly very low in the head with ivy training people, behaviour fry or they are exercised and we're like
I absolutely means I will buy had intended to remove all the more reason why we want to divorce meat production from livestock raising and so now, problem is that we're raising too many animals for food. One of the solutions may lie within those animals themselves that is within their very cell slick if they could learn to speak that be like stop at her. That is one of the things we need a pioneer to enable them to have a voice now yeah until then, though, there is now a group of start ups that are creating was called cellular agriculture in the process of growing real foods like real meat from animals cells as opposed to animal slaughter and these companies are doing is producing real animal products when autumn at alternatives to meet here. What are my real meat simply grown with vast? fewer resources that are needed to produce whole animals only to slaughter them. I know it sounds like science fiction and indeed in many cipher without US animals and animal products.
I come from animal sells a lot of the time, so your growing meat from animals cell of such I don't have launching the cells. That's exactly right. It. S basically are producing this through cell culture, and so it's been the domain of cipher for a long time. Everything from STAR Trek on the: U S, S, enterprise, that's how they eat meat was eating queen meat, but now it's not safe. I in fact it's science fact and that's what that's what you cover in your book. Right. So how real is it? Can we, as their restaurant is go? Get a t? Bone stake had grew in your lab, perhaps one day about far right. Now these companies are making ground meat products. Think more like a hot dogs, hamburgers chicken nuggets sausage up with TAT her the meat is, is lost from the original fibres anyway and assuming me products that are on the docket yeah for that but, as you said, just ground beef anyway, hotdog sausage. That's what you're, not you're, not growing creatures right, like you, didn't, have like bones: our brains are that's our again! It's like this stuff. We,
Yeah, that's exactly right, so we just need the meat large some comments, and it said there are some comments and it said the boy This chicken ranch and the chickens have low birth rates, and maybe it s a bit like the brainless chicken ran toward the disappearance of cells. Values are so soon is this going to happen well, these companies are not yet commercialized, with the exception of one company called gel tore, which is producing gelatin from basically through cell culture. But Ten has always been animal hoofs or something yeah protein around in a skeleton. Gelatin is basically just like the day. I learned that I said no.
Need Jello that bad massage crave job. They never like branded it differently. They were like gelatin. Gel link is so there for us out, though, both with the exception of guilt or which has commercialized. These companies are looking at introducing products like meat or milk or eggs, or even leather, ruining s egg, oh yeah absolutely, and so what we're talking about is probably first, some of them like leather and egg, whites and milk. Probably in a year or so then, with the meets you looking problem or like twenty twenty one, although one company Hampton Creek does pledge that within twenty eighteen they will start selling some product. That is a queen meat products and the CALL Hampton Hampton Creek and it's like a thrice like so I can imagine, there's all companies is that, like the space
it's almost like, where they're all trying to get there. First, it's gotta be hugely lucrative casually lucrative. These companies are bring and millions of dollars from venture capital funds in Silicon Valley and even agriculture. Giant cargo is investing in this space because they see queen meat as per the future of humanity's protein consumption. Who's gonna be the first to adopt climate. Would it be the visions, no the opposite. The the reality of the survey shows that the more me you eat now, the more if you are to want to eat clean meet the West meet you eat now, the West likely you are because this is It is real animal meal and so vague and united slavery and killing animals to get it. You have that has been won of the many oratorians posed against mediators,
So that is one of the reasons why some people choose to be vegetarian or vague and for those people. That is that problem is addressed through Queen meet pickets reasons too, but the fact remains that the more meat you eat the heaviest mediator so to speak, or the people most interested meaningless and wipe and why you know will be most interested one hour, Debo added value that another new fangled breakin food. Yet no scientists, God put, I get Stiva Q got barbecue gas excellently enough. Memphis meet such as one of the companies leading this space is a continent meant recently won at one of the guys. Are you listening on the radio nail its wearing cowboy had it just appeared at just material as it is the voice directives
but anyway yeah they are one of the top people the company is a guy. Is family ends a chain of barbecue joints in in Memphis and surrounding areas, and they have pledged they want to be serving queen meat on their menu as soon as these guys get it ready and what their envisioning is something to be pretty cool. So they want to do like an imaginary. Now, a restaurant, you might think in the back the brewing their own beers waiting at their own type of ip imagine or ass. They live in Brooklyn liking him the measure not yet. Instead of brewing there and beer their brewing their own meets It could even imagine like the mascots, like a pig from whom these cells were biopsies in the restaurant, and you get the money to pay. Packet path, appeared nice peered. In fact, and in fact the company we're just time at Hampton Creek did exactly that. They took a sesame sought. Sesame seed, sized biopsy from a chicken grew real chicken nuggets from his cells and ate them. While he packed abounded, the grass right before their feet, creeping modest.
Despite its I logged in them in the moment. No. What is this that NASA has to do with this? I know there is a huge food research group in Houston. Yeah word this to keep food from for the length of space missions yeah. I know they think a lot about food texture to taste and its. What's the role- and this I have been in my notes in a more words- are coming from there, the progenitor, so NASA was doing research around the turn of the century, funding this research and a growing meat, because if humans are gonna travel, the cosmos they're not bringing Noah's Ark until if they want meet they're gonna have to grow. It answer NASA funded. This sort of situation for the cow here comes about shortly after eight at NASA needs to be altered, efficient with how their producing food for anybody wants to go on long distance, cosmic tourism the way that you do, that is you grow it, and so they funded this research to grow rich. Fish meet outside of the fish, and it got a lot of attention when they did it right around the turn of the century and that spawned this whole industry, because people thought themselves wait a minute. You can't do that.
Space. Why not here on earth? We have a real problem with animal agriculture and if we could address some of the key problems of sustainability with animal AG, you could address huge problems from climate change, and so many other issues. You know enough about the molecular structure of the different cuts of meat to be able to duplicate Anna so I know it's Tiburon meet verses, you know like a layman, yawned yeah. So far, they don't have the capacity to make this happen, hold unity yeah! So right now what they're doing is like we said ground meat and so yeah they can do, different cells? I mean they could even do. I got Ter Dokken type thing retake cells from Turkey's cells from a dark and sell some chicken and makes him altogether, so you could do that, but her ducking delier higher member states. I've ever had that urge. You know these words. I want to put him altogether, but you know this field of cellular agriculture. It is still a nascent industry amend. This is really the only to make this then To make like stake, you
a sap saluting an effective one company called Finland's foods. I ate their queen fish recently and it is definitely easier to produce fish and then the next would be like avian like poultry meat. Again mammalian meat comes later, but these coming They're doing it on and their goal was to compete with animal products now in some type of away where these are a new product, but rather to compete on cost and on taste with commodities. Fish easier, because almost no matter where you are in the filet attach the same well not so with the sight of a cow? That may be one reason, but over a beggar reason is that fish are much quarter environment we're wherein, and so the cells don't have to be kept at such a high temperatures, you have far fewer energy costs because fish else can be kept at the temperature in which the fish, let's try so and so the ITA asked about the energy and the cost to make it so. First we agree with you, if you
hamburgers this way, you can transform the hamburger market everyone's gonna agree here. No one is going to deny that angry duck, complete and that's a huge part of it I condign diet, there's a hamburger, and I might eat more hamburgers, knowing that this is what it what it is. So what what would prepare- pound, which you're what you're lad meet gonna cost how well the frank and meet half hardly the first
ever clean burger there was ever produces, and twenty thirteen and Sergei Brand, the co founder of Google funded it, and it was for a bargain price of three hundred and thirty thousand dollars per burger. Ok bless second barter. Yes, I dollars, and so in the last four years the prices condemn more than eighty percent, and they took all the diamonds out of the back again and again is only twenty thousand three hundred. I don't know why they didn't use catch up instead of gold dust, but I know so now. These companies are saying they think by around twenty twenty, or so they might get down to like eleven dollars a burger, but there's a long way to go, but Vienna First Iphone was over. A billion dollars to produce in these companies have only been in existence for a couple years. There already driving the causeway down and clean meat will become a reality within years, not decades so Paul recently, I posted it. With that, I didn't think would be controversial. I thought people would just be in by it. The tweet was
Cows are by logical machines invented by humans to turn grass into steak, and I thought the blunt truth of I would just what awake people up and say. Oh my gosh, as that which is all I didn't know that kind of thing that I think you. People don't know that we invented cows, there's no herds roaming cows arising hillsides, because costs due to these reforms are always hear all the gang of herbivores, so they so and they proceed very strong, negative reaction. I would say eighty twenty, negative, to positive or to neutral an end I didn't see they're coming. Did you see that coming you follow. You follow me on twitter right. Is it right? I certainly did focusing on Twitter he's the one that Mr Mr Humane Society guy. So yes
you know I published a piece in in response to this, where I was defending part of what you were saying I mean, I think it look if you consider that when you domesticate wild animals in to domesticate animals, if that's an invention of enamel didn't exist before they sure that is a type of invention. I will say, though, that the wild animals from whom they were domesticated, the Oreck, they were turning grass into meat to before. We ever saw them s, o ruminant students, that's giraffes and camels and dear and Elk, do they turn grass into meat? So I don't know that e cause them to do that, but, to the extent that we did create cows by became house do it way more efficiently than acted ashore would still have used the orthodox yellow. We actually exterminated America onwards. I asked one died and the sixteen hundred I heard they actually came farther into my times than just the ice age yet epochal over the mammals. But did you do you think that it's because, like people were just feel so bad and weird about that stuff? In that way, when you do said the blunt truth, they will ignore.
That's, not how I was like a cancer feeling creatures. I tweet has nothing to do with that Ray I ever saw people operated, I think year, you're right. May I think If you have an animal being, a machine is what some the profound offensive, because a machine implies that they're not sentient that they don't have. I sets biological Michigan yeah. Oh, I think for anybody who follows very eyes- and here I think it could be mechanical regime Rosa biological material, because in a way we are biological machine Riah. Once you can write exactly wars, but that one has a very tuned purpose. Tat. That's all you got to say, break. When we come back more on the future of clean. Have that little secret for you I'm gonna consider singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one. And where to get out of hearing there go to patriarch arms last star, talk and sub
where does at the five dollar level or higher to listen? The star talk ad free You can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player and never we're here, another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just saying: welcome back to start work and your host, the grass eyesight am those comedic may began to make hosting. The progress made in America maintaining an irish accent since nineteen anyone got your Brooklyn action for you, you're hiding? Thank you special in studio guest Paul Shapiro author of the recent book clean meat
growing meet without animals will revolutionise dinner and the world cool subtitle there and we ve been exploring just cutting edge technology. The pulse as is gonna, revolutionise everything about how but our relationship to animals performed for their products. It will only be food but presumably or other and other products I'm going bring him some more expertise here, Yes, on video call tell budget brake on the science inside the laboratory is biologist this Brecht less welcome to start talk so much for having excellent, so you're senior scientist Good Food Institute a rat its who's, the senior scientists into bad food institute. That's what I want to know your art anymore. You aren't the parallel universe. I wonder at the scientists in the bear s Food institute about that
So you use biotech two in the field of synthetic biology to make clean me, I don't know that that's a common term, yet today synthetic knowledge? It sounds almost oxygen. Could you define that for us all absolutely yeah? So my academic background is in the field of sin. Biology, and the way I like to explain it is to think of biology like away Oh said, so in all of the millions of years that biology has been doing its thing through evolution. We ve developed this really cool tool. Kit of all of these various enzymes met Alec pathways to make war molecules, structures that have different functions and properties, so synthetic biology is simply looking at all the Lego pieces across a lot of different Lego said:
building new things that never existed before, rather than just building the objects on the front of the NGO Box. What school, though, is that you actually don't need some like son, TAT biology to make clean meat so that you know certainly there's room for synthetic biology to do more sophisticated tricks down why? What clean meat is just farming, animal cells, muscle cells, in fact, cells and so forth, rather than farming? the whole animal so when we grow and multiply these cells in culture, it's kind of the most natural thing for cells to do. There's nothing really synthetic about going from and sell to two two to four forerunner in it. That's that's what they do best. Ok, disastrous Paul in his book, but its feels like you, just distance entire work here now. I think there is definitely room for synthetic biology. I think he had first.
Who can never assume that there's something engineered or synthetic about clean meet might be, but whiggery of it as the technology going into their food. Obviously, you know we find our food very personal, so certainly there's room too average synthetic biology and obviously I'm incredibly excited about the potential of bad. But we can grow these us in a very straightforward way in culture, so so, I understand you correctly your You said in creating transgenic life life that nature itself, hadn't produced, we're doesn't know to produce, and yet some clever knee for one kind of animal or bacterium a virus, verses and other, and you just go out. It is at a fair characterisation. That's certainly that's been part of my research. Crowns. Yeah and again, I think, there's a role for that in clean meets, but it's not it's not necessary. So clean meet a separate and whether these will be genetically engineered cell lines. One thing that
fine really cool about clean meat. Is that you know whether you engineer the cell lines or not, you lately decoupled them production from the animal itself. So now we're open to all of the species. We could pass they want to fight for the Medes, it's just as easy for us to make an antelope stake, as it is a cow state. So so, but Paul, If you just duplicating cells there or cult culturing cells, whatever the proper by a word is. Does that mean you Also manufacture organs for transplant, Yeah. Interestingly enough, with a weed company in the cellular agriculture space, a company called modern matter there, making queen leather it was founded, by a father and son team that, before that had founded a company called organ over where they were making human organ tissues for experimentation purposes in one day for transplantation purposes to
the key distinction. So you can use synthetic biology, for example, to make some of these products like milk and eggs, whites and so on, the queen meet companies, though not the wicked products with the sword. Products really are just using tissue engineering, not so much the type of sin, Bio, so to speak as the others are using. Ok, so I'm just curious. If might be part of the world whose afraid to eat food that a scientist maiden laboratory. There was a rational reasons, of course, because it is the same cells right. It's your name. Its aim will be out of the absent of awareness and knowledge of what you are actually doing and the fear factor that comes with every new wave of scientific discovery.
Yeah I heard there was a restaurant around the corner here that got busted they're trying to make their food more palatable answer. There are throwing sodium chloride on at all. Do that I now so, of course, as an educated listeners, if it is showing no is just table salt, but for most people they hear suiting chloride or die monoxide and they think, like you know, this is These are real problems and courses table Saddam water inside There are some people who have a concern about technology has supplied to food, but keep in mind. Virtually everything we eat has had some type. Through technology applied to it, I mean most people are concerned about eating a seamless watermelon, despite the fact that its hardly unnatural. See anything peanut Erasmus set so lies are. Are you the weird wanted? The Thanksgiving table What I think you, where you might be, that father and son team who are like well, we used to make human organs, but now we make bacon wondering how are you received by
be friends or family. I think I'd. I am lucky in that. I reside in pretty nerdy certain goals, so I think People that I interact with day to day really really get the value of leveraging all the tools that we have to build more sustainable food system. I think a lot of people who kind of initially push back on this same the same thing. With genetically modified organisms in our crops species once you actually explain to them the benefits having that a precision when you're developing you know better fluids, really resonates with evil vertical and tell me poor. Why did you choose? Maybe not you but you're p? if not, you choose the word clean meat, because that debt that you know that's a little unfair, because it implies that meat from a living animal was dirty well
structural, desolate, that's my you know. Would you agree that your plan dirty pool their the term queenly? It was really popularized by the Good Food Institute where lives works and I'll. Tell you one like clean. Energy queen meat is just cleaner for the planet, but it's also just literally cleaner, so think about it. Right now, we're How to treat raw meat in our kitchens almost like toxic waste? Why and because it's riddled with feces e coli salmonella campylobacter. These are all intestinal pathogens that can sicken us. If we don't cook the crap out of our meat literally, the crap out of me. I got a little cooking, the crap out of them here, you're growing, clean meat. To grow intestines at all. You don't have those pet intestinal pathogens, you're, just growing the muscle, that you want, and so that's why it's worth literally cleaner and cleaner for the planet. Ok, you ve, convinced me greatly.
I think that what happened we gotta cosmic query we're ready to researching yeah. This is what I was going to introduce. It knows that were cosmic queries. We have two good experts about this topic and I will just sort of watch as this one this came in through Facebook. There's a huge fascination with this whole topic. Great. This is Daniel. Ass halt grew and he said that he read dad I'm clean me, taste bland gives its muscle cells and there's no fat cells. So what do you need to do to get? stranded fat marvelling like that, you find in the good steak and how far away If that's ok, you November, choosing to stake, it's good is the marble state, because it's not, of course, It's not just the meat is the fat Napster lit. And that this is and the the copy stakes and all that that whole other showed a branch of stake, eating, that's fat level, very high fat level. So what what's going on there yeah and fat is such a labour carry carry
obviously the so it's it also provide some nutritional value. There's all kinds of reasons you want a genuine marbled stake? So for this? For this question I would just urge that all of the companies that have developed products so far. These are early stage prototypes their working with single cell culture, so yeah some of the products so far have just been muscle cells. But of course there is the ability to cope. Culture, multiple cell type, so to have muscle cells growing right alongside fat cells. What's cooling went, they gave me out- is that when you have these cells grown on? What's called scaffolding material that helping to kind of structure the final product? You can actually use that scaffolding material to help guide the cells? Where spatially you want them to differentiate into muscle, versts bat. So imagine have the perfect marbles steak and you can make a million of those with that exact marveling pattern because you are defined and get at that level.
So you need someone to study the perfect stake underneath The causes and then of duplicated or post we even improve on it. Now, arbitrary controls variables in future. Can cultivate fat cells. The way you can protein cells or get in no damn thing fat is just the union. Does he like right? Those settles down in front of ethics for three weeks without modules and actual you're, not ok, decent Shea and he wrote in Instagram. He asked how much energy would be consumed growing meat in a lab verses raise animals palpable, Tom four pounds, so there are a lot of different lifecycle analyses that has been done so far by an and they show generally not always, but generally, that you're talking about a big energy savings, but also with you. Greenhouse gas emissions, a Lastly, a ninety nine percent, less land, much more less water use, but as Lisbon actually points out. These are still.
Early prototypes, like they don't know what it's going to be when it's that commercial scale yet presumably will be even more efficient, but for right. Now, it's looking pretty good so what you saying as the projections for the land use water use, power use are so much better than anything going on now that either when it becomes mass market commercialized you win in you, you can every contest up against what ever at whatever was used to be required to get the same product hands down, hands water, water use everything, yep Rikers, you don't have to create the grass Macao. Eads might have made a mistake in my right now. An animal was doing all types of things that require calories for things that we care about, breathing, digesting thinking, seeing walking when you're just growing, the muscle that we want or the fact that we want. You need way fewer resources to do that, and even don't animals like tastes better when they can move around thing in you, give them space.
Like they, actually need more space. I don't know I mean I don't know, there's really needs on time it many times because what they mean only free range chickens, tastes better than take chickens. You live in a cage forever will usually the free range also have other aspects about them that make them, like a little treadmill no treadmill. Even I know against big muscular airline ticket new on your table. Ok, so Mason Everest on Twitter. He asked how long roughly that Instead, he gave you that I made the process from animal cells to edible product safety as he said, Melick two thousand the beginning, so please, if you start with like one cell and then it doubles and I drew poles and whatever
Does it take just physically if you to watch it happened, tat question, so we can work out the math on that. Obviously, cells are growing exponentially. The doubling time for these. The animal cells is typically on the order of about twenty to twenty four hours. I've done some calculations myself. When I'm trying to get to look at how close white might we get to cost parody and so forth, where I'm trying to bounce, on the process, might be from say starter while to growing say it one thousand leader tank full of cells and for that process, being pretty conservative with doubling times were looking at something between maybe three weeks and five weeks run it and keep him, and that's all that's for a whole, that kind of from start to finish my outward any scale process you'll be making use of the latter end of that exponential growth curve and simply harvesting get another doubling and social right you but I'm, but it still feels short to make, because, if you
to do the thirtieth power. If you go over a month when you get there, you get five billion think something like that you're, better mass lay than ever, but cells are very small, so five billion cells- it's not very much does not like a sakes double burning, but but but because Europe, because doubling time is in your favour, the if you don't have what you need in the twenty first day, do you mean what you need in the twenty second day because what happens in the twenty second day duplicated. What happened green day, one and day twenty one really. This is a non. Does no brainer here, literally. Yes, it's a girl, ok, business, one more question before elaborate: ok, I do the nutritional benefits, and this is from Frank, Kane. I'm patriotic he's one of our patrons support.
How do you suppose you read his question? First, I am yes. Ok I'll drive you two questions. First, oh, let's additives, sorry rancor! How do the nutritional benefits of clean meet stack up to soil and being based meet substitutes that are already available? Boot, Goodwin, Goodwin? Others will take that Bobby, I'm happy to do it. So I, oh yes, you do you're a beacon. Are vegetarian? Well I've, even queen me many times so whatever that makes me I'm a queen meet a terrier. I guess, but you know you, you thought happy to Edith. The first. Am I ate clean meat was in twenty fourteen and at that time more humans are gone into. Space salinity, meet real meat grown outside of an animal. So in that I was here, hey. I thought it was a cool thing today, but it didn't do much ass for me other ever since then, I ve eaten Queen bee fish. Duck Teresa Liver Yogurt, like lots of these products, are all in one go
How do I make an automaton Canada's everything altogether? No, albeit in them separately? One of the benefits of writing this book was that these companies want to share their products with you nutritional way. And yes, so you can control. So as lives was saying you can control how much fat the types of fats amene. Their radically. You couldn't vision pudding instead of saturate, fats and maybe omega three fatty acid, so you would have a hamburger that, rather than causing heart attacks, would prevent them, but right now there just trying to get it to the point where it's just the same, the same exact the same. My name was so then you could just do a comparison directly with soil as regular meetings. Yeah right now? The clean meat products are trying to get as to be exactly like the meat that we have except much safer. Then, when you compare it, let's say to a plant based products. Plant based products are very. Precious their good for you, there sustainable there very energy efficient and their great. We want them com,
It is not an alternative to them. It's really a supplement, because, if you think about it to them, I kind of like, like fossil fuels, in that Fossil fuels are such a big problem. You want more than one solution. You don't want. Just when do you want solar, you want you with them or you won't put everything in one basket. The same with problem of animal agriculture, it so bad. It's so serious that you want many alternatives, including plant based meets in the whole plant. These foods, but also clean needs to we'll go. Take a break and when we come back more about it. We're back on. Startup photographs hasten microbial vague and yet our topic today is clean meat and I've someone who literally wrote the book Paul Shapiro. I already
read the book as I literally road, the only body that has broken out how growing meet without animals will revolutionise dinner and the in joining us on. Video call is Liz Spect senior scientists at the Good Food Institute and Europe You're joining us from San Francisco, yes votes. Thanks for being on the show and just a quick question. I heard before the break apologist slipped in talk about veggie to meet plant based plant based meat. I don't know what that is. What is it? Let it go is it just the the fake like the soil, Berger and that sort of thing, you're, gonna, Falco Vacancy, three real Ashura heard it's just. We use plants to mimic their taste and texture of meat countries where a Youtube video, where its meat, you're talking about food. The way Vegetarians word
haven't seen they said. Ok, well, have you tried this so hurry made from animal meat. We ve taken out the flavouring put in salary flavour, taste, just like salary that is made from burger. It's a whole. It's a whole videos, pretty funny You know it. It reminds me of a very large how very brief story. So, in the mid Nineteenth century Yoda huge natural ice industry, there harvesting lots of blocks, advice from furs and lakes in the north transporting and all around the world. You have the advent of industrial for duration and all the sense of cheaper to produce ice from the water right in front of you, just cool Adam, the art of the natural ice make whether that took major understandings and advances in physics and thermodynamics, yeah, You should be able to take heat from something. That's that's take heat out of something that's already colder than the environment to make it colder
that was a major advance in in so the engineering physics of toward an average begone. Will the natural ice people the barons of the natural ice industry, were really upset by this because it threaten their market and- they derided, what they called artificial ice and they said I'll be careful of artificial ice. The ammonia used in the current leak in it could hurt you the irony. The time was that the so called artificial voice was actually much safer than the natural, because the naturalised one is coming from waters that are. Who did with industrial revolution points, and they ve got horses dredging the ice I'll go to the bathroom right on top of the ices point out, whereas the artificial This is being produced from water that have been filtered or boiled you fast for today and Every one of us has an artificial ice maker and our homes, we call them freezers and nobody anything on natural or fake about it, we just call it ice, so maybe yap we're still in cosmic queries mode. Yes me, I give it to me. Ok. This is from Chris. This is from creates ray you and he's unpatriotic. Now here
I think, needs to meet you. Ok, Iceland say that without any reason I mean any eighty or mobile animal average, Joe you ve never heard about. You haven't that's very nice of you, so he's asking: how does a clean meet process compared with our Ganem farming when it comes to greenhouse emissions, energy consumption and the space that you needs? So he's writing from mad. You can actually. So what do you think our Ghana farming you'll lose your I'll help on this political life cycle analysis question but I think the most relevant attribute here is really that the amount of resources you'd like Paul said when we're grow. Needs by following categories through an animal. It's an inherently inefficient process, just thermodynamic late, there's no getting around that. So organic form farming, just like industrialized animal, culture- will always be much less efficient. In many cases, organic
farming often ends up taking more lands because you're not able to contrast, I get the same yields out of same area of land for the feet, for example, for these animals such Morgan warming relative to traditional farming even takes more land for the same for the same yield. That's what you're so her application, yeah yeah! So yet so it's more efficient and all of the above is what this comes down to, whether or not you are again, it writes wicked, what organic, regrettably have them respect because you can have organic animals, of course, is not organic is not just vegetables right, so this would we transport means that they did their not given, I guess, and to build. Hormones and study. I hope that's an animals formally defined night organic right this. This is an interesting question from a chef. His name is era Nelson, and he said I am I Michelle
interested in the idea of lab grown meat as it stands and where a guy was raised high with raised White Adidas all affect the flavor and the texture of a sick. Do you think lab grown meat? Could open the possibility of designer meets with customizable taste hip, hop then texture, because I've been in restaurants where they say this me. What? Where would not cheese week, my cheese, this is spring. Cheese, verses fall, cheese. The spring the cows are eating on this side of the hill. The grass is theirs but later on, it's a different grass, and so I did they fired on the area. So are you so Liz Dune, do you know the molecules well enough to duplicate the subtleties,
go on not only in the food we put in our capacity to taste, it are you there like a sunshine morning, a Montana. That's been treated this guy massaged this, the council's attempts to drive you have them under the monk massage Dream american partnership among soldering, the bio energy. Given something to do, they add their secrets: ass yeah, just because people haven't looked out it yet. But I think that's a relatively straightforward question to answer and I think what's so excited about this process is the degree of control you have our bread, so you can do an analysis of what are all of the the subtle flavour components that you're getting when you know, you're Europe fermenting grass from a certain area and you can figure out what that actually is. And then you make yourself culture media there nutrient feed to have exactly that composition. So, from a commentary perspective I mean you could
You can patent your formula of what you're feeding to yourselves and that can be your. You know. Your five star meet one of a kind that you have How do I know she had thought about that patent, your own steak, and what it would also mean is whatever might, because it's not whenever they didn't damage have, as a rule, leader, scientific thinking how lucky we are so the, it seems to me: there's not only whatever the cow eight, giving whatever flavour and texture to the meat that was in it. That you'd now can possibly duplicate, but there's also topical dressings, you might put on it. The dry rub in principle You could infuse your cultures with with taxes barbecue sauce right. So then you just get them
the cook it? It's got all the flavor you would put on it after the fact. That's just like a barricade hand right. The pigs eat this special type of acorn and then they taste so good. But the delicious favourably. Your idea, I think we're going to drop acorns and with the cells there would be an interesting cocktail merges were, but also for a couple more questions. Ok, so I mean this is from Instagram Granola and I can't wait to China's. I hope it's good enough to set our visions up, I mean weakens, do love to be vague and often bundle, and we all know the ones that do we do Ryan's it's odd, because, apart from the senior citizens here, there was a day You invited to someone's house. They didn't ask you what you couldn't eat. You just ate what you are
any. Allergies are due to vegetarian omniscient, I'm allergic to these seven. Ok. I will now accommodate you that is today. Back can my day no, you ate what was put in front of your face, no matter what suits whole culture. Your whole, It was snowing outside to all its aren't. They know that is worth to school, so I'm just intrigue have, like you said it's almost as though people's food habits have become the religions and we choose friends based on it and you so be nice. If that we can do away with that. If we just manually for everything in the lab scientists just got go for it had it on there.
What are you up here? I mean already our food. A lot of our foods dupe start out in a laboratory right leg. You think about cornflakes, Simeon they're, not they saw a great grow on a tree. Some some white cut cited in a lab created cornflakes, announced produce in a factory, eventually clean meet, isn't gonna becoming from a lab it'll be coming from a man like a brewery. Basically, and so I am sorry that I had, I guess what excites me about clean meat They actually levels the playing field in terms of white globally. We can all eat because, where we're low bring the resource burden of making need. So this is no longer aid in a wealthy western world type luxury. This is now something that could be accessible, and so I think you know in some ways it makes eating less politicized because we're we're all using a much more effective method that makes this democratized and programme supporting their moment I do my little sizing food. This, a beautiful
that article is behaves like here in Amerika. We have so many options. Is that right and but like you can see. My doctors we take for granted as well. Right, I mean a daddy, doesn't really already. We have like so much here, but it does hasn't. Even things out around the world are growing about which we have to exercise to too many recent by rejecting adding so chubby Ahern ya mean I had heavy mountains at night, I as a very heavy and meet as a first world issue right like there's a reason why the poor nations of the world don't eat them with me is very resourceintensive, so I think, loses right more time. Democratizing food. If you could have these type of systems, where you're producing meet much more efficiently, you could make it available not only people who don't have access to it today, but to the billions of people who are going to come under the planet, primarily in developing countries like China, millions or yeah right and who are gonna want to eat like Eirik and not a developing country
to the billions yet born. There is no work there are still coming nearer to, like majority, has a space programme them out of their own to Philip was collected wider Europe alarmingly high like in it in you, it would be like Canada trickle down taken nuggets. We haven't one last question under great ok, so if I This is from Andrei frosts if I want to support the development of macro meat and eighth vat grown me, so that when you re going to do under his two sub continent, that your parents and hastened its commercial viability which company organization say throw money at so You know one thing at least as one resource self serving to say ass, I say supporting her non profit. The good food institutes was not your problem from yes. Ok, so I will say that's a great place to invest your good relay institute, but also you by the book, which you can get from cleaned me dot com, which is not enough for us
you can see the main companies that are leading in the space. Where was I profile those companies in the book and provide a good where year, their crime there in my world? It's never right right, yes, good mind, they are to blame and historically profile, meaning that I chronicle their exploits, and so you can check them out, but I've gotta clean meet our common see for yourself, but will excellent, I trust in expect and put the book do well in up. Change the dialogue one out there, it will be keeping an eye on you. I won't my bone stake my way, medium rare, but will We will be looking at the Good Food Institute and good to know. When we got good people you're just trying to change the world all for the better. So thanks for balanced article is thanks. So much for having me on it's been a pleasure.
And may yeah was good to have you any. I never thought that was so fine, no I'm hungry. I think that the actual role of science- yes, it is affected. Information technology is affected transportation. It can still. The many more places that science has yet to tread in our lives that it could just transformed civilization. As we know it. It's always science to transform civilization That seems like it would be. The next one and would be welcome to us all, all ten billion of us. Sharing this planet in the year. Twenty, forty, twenty! Fifty you got it well, we got it
and there you ve been watching and more likely. Listening to this episode of STAR talk thanks, Paul Paul Shapiro may live, I've been your hosting the underground station and, as you wish, you can listen. The star talk Commercial free joint start talking. Patria for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear, learn more at patriarch doc. Coms last star talk, radio
Transcript generated on 2020-01-20.