Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, Commercial free, welcome to start off your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide knocked off begin right now is star talk, I'm your host Neil. The grass tie sentiment astrophysicist with American Museum of Natural history. That's my day, job, but by night your host guy with Means Studio, jackknife, J, hey, NEO Hawaii, you know we did have shown zombies. That was one of the most popular shows. We had MAX works on who wrote this story for the movie right, the feature movie where

You were a z, world wars and so popular. We thought we should do like a follow on cue and aid to it. Ok, and so we brought in studio back to start talk, regard lorry welcome back to started, there's Lori there she goes. She worked at cheese with the council on foreign relations and perhaps best known for Pulitzer Prize winning journalism and author of the book, the coming plague, you're an expert infectious contagious diseases? What are you

get parties, my boss does Commie Debbie Down Debbie Downer has actually your book sounds very hopeful that in so we are in the cosmic queries edition of start up and chuck. You can be reading questions by the way. Normally you read the questions to mean yes, because there on the universe, that's right, but now we soliciting questions on viruses. Yes, we have a pretty like that not much. I can say about that. We had to bring more for this, that a little subject export here there we have it so must not waste any time. I rest rate to question drawn from our listener audience that's great fan base and that the listeners on Facebook and everywhere else in twitter, email in any kind of fun. Press, yes, also go for a ride, must jump right entered this, and this one comes from Facebook in its Heidi Myers. In hiding, like to know why aren't there anymore outbreaks bill still live in poor sanitation in cramped quarters cheated cheek with new car.

Where's from lightly travelled areas brought a bush meat? Is eaten by many and transportation is even faster than it ever was, it is due to vigilance, ill site. Is it due to vigilant or are the disease, is evolving into endemic conditions faster than they used to? Her first sentence was why there any more outbreak- and that is incorrect. While I fix pandemics. That is incorrect. Ok, which have been battling in the last four or five miles two issues? We we the we'll community seas fighters, disease fighters because, unlike the justice legal virus hack. Well, that's what damned Brown says. Yes, We ve been fighting to one is called sadly,

seven and nine. It's a form of influenza that emerged in China a seemingly out of nowhere. We will it. Why do we always blame or the countries for the start of influenza? A recent one recent wanted my has America written all over it. Do we something else that would have been the h when anyone swine flu of two thousand nine? Why did we call it to the United States virus? Well, it was american swine. Now really was that there may well be american Sly Southwick, a cool new, just don't call an american woman turned ok erupt go on so, H. Seven and nine is an influenza that emerged in first seen in Shanghai, and it was coincidence, with in January, twenty thousand pig carcasses floating through the one who river the central river of downtown Shanghai that be like having twenty thousand dead pigs come down the EAST River. Also, these how to Shanghai was rapporteur.

Environmental improvement upon the EAST River son just saying so. These are in the question by the Quest referring to squalid areas, whether wire that will not be shown? I tranquilize pretty decades a truly advanced super hyper, modern city, twenty three million people and all of a sudden along comes this virus. The connection to the dead pigs never established very controversial inside China, because pork is the number one routine source for most Chinese. So we're not going to talk about. You know what might be in your pork, ah but that virus spread, although to Beijing and all the way down close to Hong Kong and cause. Havoc and seems to have stopped because they shut down the live animal markets. However, it also

a coincidence with what is whether wise, usually the under flew season, so were all very anxiously waiting for next fall. Is this going to come back with ferocity that one had a very high kill rate? It was around twenty five, twenty six percent of the people on God even got it. I leave mole, but that's not as bad. As the one we are now very worried. Lee watching, which has another unfortunate dubbing,

mergers, co v, which stands for middle eastern respiratory syndrome, corona virus, ok right, but let's just caught merge for the sake of argument. This is a virus that is genetically very close cousin to Sars. Remember that from two thousand three of his bread to thirty one countries still have my mask from the Sars stills portly. He never never gives up the older antiquated devices, so it oh, I will go there, so this murder virus emerged, it seems to be from Saudi Arabia, seems to have originated, possibly in the ALA Hussar region, which is an oasis in the desert near Bukharin in the eastern part of Saudi Arabia, to once again much squalid areas. No, A lot of the cases were in downtown Riad urban, big city, the each airport of entry for peace,

flying in and out of Saudi Arabia. What has people very concerned- and there is an emergency summit under way right now in Cairo call by W H, show Where has the World Health Organisation world? How has the whole Middle EAST freaked out? Is that Amr, which kicks off Ramadan is just a couple weeks away and then, in early October you had the harsh on both cages you have mass islamic pilgrimages to Saudi Arabia. So if you ve gotta respiratory virus, that is transmissible allow by air there, I urge and by close contact, my kissing, like being in the harsh elbow going around the tomb of Mohammed repeatedly with millions of people. Then? You have potential for serious spread. And that's a party. I don't wanna go to a will and it

the problem is. The hush has a long history of being a time for disease to spread, and it is responsibility of the saudi state to ensure that this rule Just pilgrimage is safe for all, and otherwise it becomes a communal bath than everyone takes in in disease. So I invite ok for hiding spell question squalid conditions, not all that bad and now I don't know about it. The way not the problem, but I don't think that's for Mohammed's tomb. I think if there's a stone inside it always sacred stones here right now to incorrect. When we come back more on infectious diseases starts out. Radio comes back with more again. It is a special guest.

We're back our talk. Radio cosmic queries addition with Especial Guest Glory Garrett, an expert on it anxious diseases? So, what's on your mind his guard lorry come on now how to highlight what a downer turn off Pulitzer Prize winning. Congratulations on that and Chuck nice in studio with maintain you're reading questions that we solicited. After we saw the success of our zombie, shout yes because zombies are a model for the spread of disease and the whole show is about the spread of diseases that these are very popular. Well in there they made good move these, but there's a analogies to it that a very real application when we the nonetheless segment. You mention that during the annual pilgrimage to MECCA, if there's a disease Break in that area, and then you have all these Muslims coming from around the world and then return if they catch

the disease that is like the ideal way to spread it. That's how you the textbook way to spread of disease is wanted. It's not alone among the rituals of our of cultures in the catholic church. There is, but particularly in south american traditions. You would kiss the foot of the baby Jesus and then the priests would like wipe it with a cloth but use the same cloth wipe at every turn which are then gather whenever mouth germs you might have had so there's. Quite there there, traditions that our cultural, religious there not necessarily in the best interests of your survival rang when there's an outbreak ready to have. I was recently in Burma and I hiked, but did a lot of walking through Buddhist temples but I didn't realize that one of them was a temple that required. I climb a mountain, but you had to take your shoes off at the bottom of the mountain and as you climbed up you passed on

a very angry monkeys that had left their leavings along the trail. So by the time you got to the top lotta monkey on your feet, yeah I'll get a move on. That's your own! funky monkey, that's worse than monkey back yesterday. Mostly monkey call that mountain Mount never mind how I've felt by the back door in charge. You got it the question we were cosmic queries addition here: how can we have a call we're we're gonna go to Chicago, if only I got out of I'm sorry, we are mentally who I like to call back, sometimes just because I'm like that, lane. Those a lame come back, I'm watching you here but cohort merrily at Seattle. The new breath now he is on the line and she has a question. You're gonna leave that concern and I actually had a question about some resident answers, what they used to be a virus, let Hey technology in the scene, the lot of the players

between counter now actually originated in other species, and so a thundering. Is this level of species crossing common to viruses, or is there anything that we're doing as human to encourage the formation of these multi species viruses awesome. Natalie so obviously That's gonna have to go to lorry Garrett, our like infectious disease expert at the table lorry what it where you have to say about that. Well, various my question: and both of fur posit answers are correct, so we have this process. We called Zoah noses and that's the transmission of virus, says sore bacteria for that matter that her quickly and one set of species of animals and then boom, they jump to a it's a zone also has to owes right like Zuzu, right and Zodiac comes from that is well twelve animals, ya, goin all, but those billet wrong, because she's already

at any rate. So analysis actually is a very dangerous process because typically win a microbe jumps the first time to a species that has not seen it before that species has no immunity to it and the virus is very, very ill, and typically in that first leap, and so, for example, I was in the above epidemic and nineteen ninety five sire they're allowed, and that was a virus that had just jumped from bats through chimpanzees to human humans, and so it came in in its initial wave. It was more than ninety percent lethal and after it passed through humans for a while it dumb down. If you became less and less now? Is that we are going down a result of our defences or the virus itself in its replication? But why would a virus ever done down yeah? Well

I don't want to say this in a way that sounds like I'm anthropomorphized and putting a brain into a virus, we love, we let it out, we level atop the whole universe, a virus, the virus, It's in the viruses interest to remain in your species so that you walk around and spread it, whereas, if Guess you so sick that your immediately flattened out and therefore not particularly likely to infect There's go back to your zombie model. You why the zombies walking around trying to touch her, there's visions and turning them into Zalm right now? I don't want a zombie to immediately drop on the floor and not move. This would carry perfectly lethal, has to only be mildly resource. We have a chance to spread it, so why doesn't it maximize that sort of

I mean, I kill you immediately factor for, like, I would say, maybe sixty year, C4 facts. So that would be HIV is a brilliantly adapted virus to the homo sapiens city. She doesn't kill you immediately. It takes ten years or more, if your untreated and during that time, for most of that time, your contagious tier sexual partners two year who don't know or Eve who don't know and much of that time you have no symptom, so you're unaware, you have a dangerous disease and you can give it a perfect viral carrier. It's a perfect viral situation, but let us go back to Natalie question there. Are there two key points here? One is we stressing our planet in so many ways. Millions of species of creatures that carry viruses. Bacteria inside of them are being forced was to human. How does portion the displaced their displaced bats are at the top of the list and bats turn out.

To be the natural carriers of the murders virus. The Sars virus, Ebola, Marbre, glisten, Nippur window down a huge list of wine or easy all die from these diseases, because apparently they do they are unknown to them of their em. You may see not die, they seem to be carriers, they may get sick, but they don't. Legally set and they pass it in when they chew on fruit and they spit out the pits and so on. The viruses encased in that spittle you will, and then our domestic animals pig sore horses or would have you say well, there's some cheap food right and they goes chopping up and they get nutrition. Imitating the sound was by the way I was pretty. Girl was actually let us happy, but sloppy, we're goin, so she's right that human, committees are putting us in greater risk. The other is, of course we have a huge trade in exotic animals there's all kinds of

people who, for all sorts of either dumb reasons like to collect exotic species and it's usually illegals to both collect and smuggle so all of it is Sub Rosa and therefore not easily you no control. Old by health officials. And this is the way that, for example, we had prairie dogs dying, across the MID west at one point from of ice,

reset had never before been seen in North America was all because of smuggled animals without it was because they were so adorable they were dying of cute miss I dont know. If anybody in Texas would tell you that prairie dog was key district Somalia to greet perfect, we hit that one Natalie. I don't know what I'd Madeline, what I called ninety Natalie now I think we got that would do we get that one for you. I think I think you very my answer is it's our fault. There you go and I'm gonna call her letter shock. We got two minutes. What a loving! Let me find one, that's very quick and answer the rain forest have been known this from Madeline Red Luke answer the rain. Forests have been known to be attacked by a funk, which zombie buys the ad and forces it do unnatural fungus aid. Behavior. Is it possible for a focused like this to attack human beings well. I don't know that we have actually seen a fungus turn people into zombies, Bud

We certainly see fungi that execute all kinds of clever activities to force the behaviour of whatever they, in fact, to facilitate. Bread of their spores absolutely and ours wanted very macroscopic viral behind I mean you, you might argue that's what athletes foot in a Jim is absolutely. But the or the particular fungus their causes you to scratch your genitals, oh no, you're sounding like book of Mormon there's a particular passage repeatedly in that I can't say on the radio: that's if you dont brave jock, just if why but ok, so and and and fungi since they taste good they have a way to get into all of our bodies, not all fungi but there are those that do and surprisingly should talky yeah but yeah there

We are surrounded by spores that are bacterial spores, fungal spores they drift in the air and in some cases they look and landed in a proper location in your personal ecology to cause Disease ninety, so there that's where it is there we have so. Basically the answer is yes. Why

day. You will be a sandy made from progress. There's answer battling put it that way when we come back more of our infectious disease q and a inspired by all those omby mania, we're gonna worry Garret in through the Porter prize. Winning expert on infectious disease will be right back secret for you I'm gonna consider singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one and where to get out of hearing there go to patriarch arms last star talk and support Where does at the five dollar level or higher to listen? The star talk ad free,

you can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player and never we're here another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking, I mean just saying: We're back understood, taught radio. I knew the grass Thyssen in my day, job on the director of the hidden planetarium ok, museum in actual history, but by night, I'm

why you laugh and judge to try to get the move go and have now. I only bury way. As I have said, I have a slight erection of a two year, my euro, so our zombie show was so popular with MAX Brooks. Talking about just zombies as a model for the spread of infectious diseases that we had to do. It I argue and eye on it and that lorry Guerdoned studio absolutely whose a journalist who somehow find yourself in every place where major outbreaks have occurred in the world and not even. I asked how that happened, while I'm going to say, as I think we found our primary suspect so check what witnesses, Q and a so these questions from our readers, from our listeners. Somebody have ok. So this one comes from a job an Vieira the facebook if we were to make cuts,

tat with alien life. Would it be possible for us contract diseases from them. If so what our immune systems be able to adapt to alien diseases, seeing as how we ve never encountered them before that, such a good question kind, a first pass that ok go through Tom, Railings, here's a here's, an interesting point! I think. Ok, I'm principle we could should disease from Alias, but I think its highly unlikely real yes, because they a completely different from us typically, this jumping of species from one page like there's something similar sort of from once. She's, to what other it might have a vertebrate. You know eggs arms. You know ahead, we don't ever catch. We will, we're catch Dutch ELM Disease, ok in trees, don't catch the flu right that I know of whooping cough.

So the more remote am. I correct me from one worry, the more remote a species is genetically from you, the less likely they're gonna have a disease that can jump to you. Ok now, so, therefore aliens would be the maximum remote kind of life to you. Because they would have evolved and some other planet with some other dna if their dna at all I'll carry. That was awesome. Let's get the either confirmation or rebuttal from nor glory, well, Neil, you are perfectly correct and partly very wrong, Let me start with the wrong part. Where was I wrong most well in nineteen? Sixty three, when J F K, gave the let's go to the moon speech earlier, to one was in nineteen. Sixty one and another was making sixty two. I can't get a then record young Nobel Laureate Joshua Burke said,

President, I think we need to have a meeting here, because if we go to the moon- and we take our human microbes as checkers with us to the unavoidable to the moon and there is any life form at all that we don't know about on the moon, are microbes, might kill that life form and, conversely, if there's any, I form on the moon, we might bring it back with us his question. Spawned. A very large effort by NASA to deal with the possibility of one direction or another spreading disease which, by the way, was picked up by Michael, cried and and became his famous book Andromeda strain books. Are the era actually, and there is a lot of theoretical talk that

life was seated by asteroids carrying ah life forms of some for time or essential, nucleotides elements, so there's that site the other side, however, the flip side of that is sort of right about your answer is the experience of Australia. So, as far as we know, the austrian continent, had no up placenta mammals except her sapiens until the Europeans came answer? It was you know, lots and lots of creatures they carried their babies in pouches and on our Scipios while marsupials and they infectious disease rate from all verbal records, because no written ones of the aboriginal peoples was very very low, and indeed, they were said to me Extremely long lives into their nineties until the West

nurse came, and then they were obliterated by one disease after another, westerners are similar same species, and so now they can catch the same disease, bright man they brought with them all sorts of mammals, dogs, cats and pigs in horses and so on, and all of a sudden, the Continental stroll you never saw, but never saw before, got an excellent example after so, basically, here the answer. If these early are nice is getting doesn't chutney some of these accidents it these near Hence our not travelling with horses and the cow. Then we're court we're fine or what was true troubles. The trouble level, if they bring troubles, were indeed where did he do those from so burden? There's your answer, John Well, that was fascinating. I gotta tell ya and seeing you to actually go back and forth with made it even better, monitor yes This concern within ass, an astronaut led to the core,

contain of the APOLLO Moon Workers when they came back? You might remember asking whether, in like a like, when a big over something exactly yes and there they also to waiving through the window. They were analyzed for possible infections, infectious agents and the jury, of time in their got less and less for each subsequent, where we ve No, the moon is completely hostile to all life, so basically just come back as where we come back for our special edition cosmic queries on viruses, infectious disease.

We arrived when start on radio. The cosmic queries addition jackknife nice for doing this again, always a pleasure liable. Guy reading these questions hours love it, and these are all about so the viruses and infectious diseases spawned by the success of our asylum be sure yes could think of zombies as a infectious agent, and you got it there. It is their Cairo out or for the spread of disease great Model- and we couldn't have done this with me alone because, like I, can bring the cosmos to the table, but not infectious disease is Serbia Pulitzer Prize Winning Lorry Garrett lorry thanks? Where is your second time on startup yeah I hope it's beginning of sudden the marginal carrying Asia infectious agents with you so check. What do you got? Another question? Yes, I do it's actually coming from Chris, who is on the phone o excellent, excellent. Let's go straight to Chris thinks we're going to start off course What are you gonna water,

man about if they could be considered a virus or or not to learn, not alive or good day now about be controlled to where you guys, just zombies. Maybe they can be self aware and turn it into a zombie, so just declared there's been a lot of loose talk with the prefix now right now literally means one billionth right so nanosecond as a billionth of a second a nanometer, a billionth of a meter. And so now biology and nanotech technically means things that are the size of a billionth of a meter, very tiny tools, I form whatever it is you're doing lately the people talk right now, but which are just leave robots to crawl around on your desk right right, I mean they're, small sarcoma small bought, but saving for when you really mean it or an ipod and so crisis point, of course is if we can make viruses that we control better sort of machine machine.

But our small, like viruses, we can affect you with something that we ve manufactured in the web. Server is nanotech that is targeting disease, and there is a lot of talk about That would be none about for good. Yes, certainly heavy deposited force of marble comics, who had heavy day these novel Nano agent Switcher still, much in them. I would say the fur end of the research process. It is agent would target, for example, killing cancer cells, so they would recognise something on the surface of the cell. That said, I am a cancer cell and then go in and kill it. The poisoner. What have you, but the hands of the diabolical genius. Well, the question really is to ask: is there a way to make a nano bought self reproducing if one of my life, where the words virus banana about, could be self reproducing then

indeed, you could have an out of control infectious problem because it would have to replicate itself. Yes, in order for that to happen, yes, like a virus would like a virus, then you're. Really. Walking the line between what's man maiden. What's right at some point where we're not controlling machines were controlling biological molecule, well and then the other thing that is different, Sir Gawaine. What's the other thing that's going on now is that we have this dichotomy, a purpose where people in public health, want to know what's ground with viruses in the natural world, so we're ready and we make our counter. Measures are vaccines and what have you, but on the the hand, there's a lot of folks at table. The best way to answer a question is to do manmade evolution? Let's diet? act, the evolution of viruses in the lab manipulate

and turn them into monster, viruses and see you know what does it take to be a monster virus so last year, two years ago- and we are proud of our last year to different teams, one in Wisconsin and one in Rotterdam in aid made super killer form of flu in the lab and a whole People said why in the world, would you do such a thing? Yes, I laws are now sitting in freezers right. We were last month not outdone by Americans, because you know they don't want to be outdone by Americans with anything. The Chinese, a lab in hard being made a honey Twenty seven manmade flew viruses of which five readily spread in the air between guinea pigs and killed them. Oh my god. So this The new cusp that were on is oh we're, trying to do it for good we're, trying to see in advance what nature my do, but in the process you're putting a freezer Armageddon, people and people.

Fraid of Physics, it s just a plum crazy, you are not lie in Man- oh my god, I'll take an atom bomb any day. Over this year, I gotta tell you in the fraternity of science. You guys are animal as well. If you don't like that check this out, no, don't you got some got worse. I gotta get twenty seconds. Go: ask synthetic biology! There's a competition call! I gem in order to compete high schools, It's in college students have to make a novel, not pre exist. Micro organisms in the in twenty twelve. There were two hundred and Thirty, eight competing teams, meaning to earn for it a previously nonexistent microbes were made by high school and call

see that's the end of this year, as it were a regular, which I just told us where we come back more of our special autism infectious disease. Cosmic queries will see in a moment. We are back in the final seconds sort of cosmic where resolution As you know, the final segment is the lightning round. Yes, lorry garret. We warn you in advance of this, but your questions cannot last more than five seconds at most ten, although I shall hear about- and we go on to the next question like are you ready for this is just so. We have a lot of backlog. Questions are going to get people on the air here. Are you ready chuck

and we got. A question asked already go from twitter. This is Noah Stevens at Noah Stevens. If we measure deadlines as the percentage of global population killed, what is the most deadly plague in history than I in eighteen influenza, woe eight year unless you want, is worse than the plague in the fourteenth century in terms of total numbers, yes, in terms of percentage, population played with the worst play anxiety spurt, embraced urgently that I haven't people too, imaginating depends on somewhere between seventy five and a hundred million. Ok, it's twice the number of deaths in the Second World WAR. I don't get the sniffles in nineteen eighteen. This is my husband Abdul up in the case of viruses and vaccines if they disease gets eradicated. Ok, we'll future generations still have get vaccinated, put those diseases know not nice girl,

she's she's getting his courage. So well it's gone. It's all gone a k smallpox we don't vaccinate anymore. I hear you go from Amanda Patio. This is ok. What do you think is the most interesting historical plague or dammit viral or otherwise or otherwise, and it so fascinating plague. It completely reshape Europe forever. The politics the larger, the the status of the church, the ok, which play a many outbreaks which one it's fourteen send one of the big one. Gotcha black black plan death like death. Ok, copy, a black did ok turns up after jobs and there's a bad there we go. This is Zack cells. If a global epidemic broke out in the third world, how long would we expected to take to reach across the planet? Also?

Are we more susceptible to a pandemic now because of air and sea travel or less vulnerable due to improvements in the medical community? No waiting firstly because it depends on the dynamics of the spread of the particular microbes and the second one, of course, for vulnerable because we're moving around more gotcha mobility matters greatly and Harry? We actually counteracted their vulnerability through medical technology. Well, better now, with surveillance gadgets, We need an essay for viruses, good gotcha. Next. This is from Courtney like what is the simplest way you have found to explain her. Immunity have you ever, countered an anti vaccination believer to the science of vaccines in your community? Not not just people don't believe in vaccines. Scenes is already science for that, Well, there's plenty of science, for why heard immunity helps and works, and what happens when it's not working and we have a measles outbreak, attic

a troll in Wales right now, because the anti vaccine people one over so much a public opinion that people stop getting vaccinated, well now look to Wales, Courtney there's your answer- I met from Jared Connor could pathogens peace in the atmosphere? A recent study by Georgia. Tech researchers found that eco lie amongst a great deal of bacteria that formed a sort of bacteria, sphere in the upper atmosphere. If we now have proof that pathogens, particularly sports related ones, can spread, and clouds and rain down in locations faraway man. That is one time you do not want to make it rang Duke do stay inside when that happens. Well regret you don't know its common and you don't know it's for nothing. Next, ok, there's a good one from our reality. With someone like me, who is like right, man, she's eyes, ears, kellet baby is slowing down. Ok

Is the minimum size, sorry from Algeria already? What is the minimum size of a population that can support a viral, faction. Port, whatever they do so, in other words, for for the vote where's itself to be able to continue on its life. The minimum number of people you me in a community, so it can spread and continue to be a virulent in theory one if, is this: a slow, growing, microbe and slow replicating one. The duration of your life. You can be the host for it got so in theory, It just be a virus. I could be a virus of one like, like the army, got, it unites us. What the this is from Richard Fox has the link between

a chicken virus and obesity been proven. First time I ever heard there was a link between a chicken virus in obesity, I think of the by chicken virus. He means like a whole chicken and eating one in a city. Roger was area were more or less alone, and here we go quite do the virus is used to transfer Jean traits interest G m o course survive in crops. No gotta bring we can t rotted hole. You rushed at lightning rod, then Are you guys? I do have lost all you out? Ok, I'm surprised you could throw you get this when it is the human body temperature rises when it gets a virus. Could there be an explanation for what the planet is going through right now, the plan is pretty much created, so we could have similarities the temperature rises because of your immune response. A fever is part of your immune response against a microbe. Not good analogy to the planet:

in the matrix, when the Smith said you are Cyrus on the Earth Glory Garrett. Thank you for being a star talk, radio, illuminating, our inquisitive listeners. Infectious disease was us and viruses. You ve been listening to start talk, radio Chuck thanks for being here nor right. Thanks again, I'm your house near the grass Thyssen, ten starch or greater, has been supported in part by a grant from the National Science Foundation. As always, I beg you to keep looking. I wish you could listen the star talk, commercial, free, joint start compatriots for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear, learn more at patriarch dot, com, slap, star, talk, radio,