In the first episode of our special edition Cosmic Queries series, “Let’s Make America Smart Again,” Neil deGrasse Tyson and co-host Chuck Nice welcome CNN’s Fareed Zakaria to break down the impact of immigration on science and technology in America. NOTE: StarTalk All-Access subscribers can watch or listen to this entire episode commercial-free. Find out more at https://www.startalkradio.net/startalk-all-access/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode. Commercial free movies is filled with secret cinemas trees. Leaving us with many questions to be answered. We find ourselves searching for those answers is the very fabric of space. Science and society are converging here for the first time. What what are you? Are you gently? The tv show me the brakes, Daddy Glinda. Did you grandma South Ass do when they get last night
I wonder if this start talk. Radio welcome to the first instalment, series of Special Edition cosmic queries that we have dubbed Make America's smart again, whom your host and personal astrophysicist Neil the grass Thyssen and join me today is my coast. Is someone who no stranger to start out. Radio professional comedian chat nice haliae I like that, like the fact you put professional ended outside very, very kind of maybe the first time I've done. That is that we finally pay your random. Everyone can really clearly. I am paying my mortgage from comedy now and somehow you got that informal gets very pleased to hear that today,
we're talking about immigration policy, specifically the contribution immigrants and descendants of immigrants have made to science, technology, engineering and math in this country. Now? You know, Unama can do that alone. I hardly do any of this alone. So to help us out, we brought in special guessed the one, the Red Victoria yeah in point. That's right! You do have an exclamation point: blood borne with your name. I was deserves one. I was hoping to be called professional, something I guess I'm just worried sick. I feel like I'm a professional, ok, something for the next four, the next what image for your our profession, I serve It is an indian american journalist and all sir and is also a host of sea and end for reads. A courier GDP the S right. I assume revamp. I lie like the Vienna, the encore. Yes,
that's something that deserves to be set in stereo. Do you go about gene we also rights a weekly com for the Washington Post, so for it thanks for joining us and we ve been for a while. So I'd just pick you up artistry right right right. So so I did some homework on you and you have an extraordinary academic pedigree. To be doing what you're doing so many pundits out there, the kind of of made there, you know they did it over their own reading, and they strong opinions and people of hearing. You know vociferous, leave voiced, opinions and you always have the sort of calm voice, and you have all this academic substrate there. So that always the case, though always a guy who has an extensive and impressive. Academic pedigree it'll have to screen stream the guys that are just like ok, so you feel that way. For you, like those, are the
always the guy who doesn't know anything just like aren't taught you now. This is the way it is like. But myself has elapsed, academic, maybe a little bit like you. I beg of you still consider yourself a practising put my mind whether or not in practice or drug profession, As regards your such as I look for, did I give all this happened just go back to the lab and then you'll never find me again. So I wanted just explore this, what I bring to the table for you to react to this. The fact that science in the United States, which really came of age in the twentieth century with the out for their many drivers, but let's take, for example, the formation of the National Science Foundation, but there were earlier indicators go back to Abraham Lincoln, who, in nineteen sixty three when he really had other priorities. He signed into law, they created the nest,
the Academy of Sciences, recognising what role science was playing in Europe and how important it was saint. We gotta get me some of that for a country and he also created the Land Grant college system. So he had tremendous force into the role of science and technology as a fundamental driver of everything United States would become so. I look at I'm closer physics than I am biology. Of course, side. Look at things like the Manhattan project, so crucial to what became twentieth century politics and science, and it landed us where we become where, where we were for the entire second half of the twentyth century and most of those scientists were foreign, bore nationals and and so what? What from Europe from your world view? How could you explain how this works, just the Euro, to its fascinating you're, you're, absolutely right to focus on
beginnings, because we think that America was always the most scientifically innovative country. In the way we look at the Nobel prizes and we take it for granted five percent of the world's population. We get about seventy five percent of the world's prizes that doesn't even count Obama's peace prize, which I regard as kind of weird one. I know for sure for someone it's like a lifetime achievement of war that age twenty five. When, if I've studied one, you can really earnest, but we gotta give it to you just because we like is actually, but if you look at the early twentieth century, nineteen, ten nineteen fourteen, I forget the exact date german had one more prizes in science, Nobel Prize in size than Britain and the United States put together. So the? U S becomes a power. House in science, basically for three big reasons. The first is the destruction of Europe, basically sickly war, one one or two great depression. The place gets flattened all the universities shouted with the last man standing with the last man standing input. ITALY. Germany gets destroyed. Germany was the scientific superpower. Second, we taken all these immigrants. People forget either
in the thirties, with all the restrictions, a hundred thousand Jews came and from Europe. Men of them sign this. As you say, many of them worked on the Manhattan project after that, of course, the door opens even wider and the it is massive government funding, so let s think about it. You're, being destroyed anymore government funding is down to have. What are used to be our only hope frankly, is that we keep taking in the best and brightest in the world, otherwise We already see the world catching up, you already see that dinner, japanese scientist we're Nobel Prize of routinely that you now have the Chinese getting in on the action, so we have to recognise hearing. There were five percent of the world. We want make sure that when I'm winning just five percent of the Nobel Prizes la that, what that's a very adept at that very fact and is enabled only if you then not only access to but mutual interest in coming to the world's greatest talent and the world
it is telling isn't always in your country, because everybody's human and innovation it is not. Has a monopoly on innovation. It just amount of opportunity to express it in, and you know what I've noticed something real. As you probably know I was for a while. I trust, If the college I went to Yale and those There are a lot of government funded way. You see the way he did, but listen. That's what I like about the way the four regions did. I dropped at once. He was like it was like of a subtext remaining. All colleges knew they look after thought. You'd know regret, so. Here's the Boyne, yellows private, of course, a lot of government cuts to public universities, some of the great public universities in America, and we notice that you will have access to better and better scientists who were well. That was what biggest so universally Arizona cutting funding Miriam Michigan State is cutting funding, so Berkeley, you know now but actually happen less at Berkeley than anywhere else, but what I was struck by a mid being a new.
Being in the world that you and I are Neil. I thought we would have to offer he's got more money. No, the scientists only cared about what they have good labs and good colleagues, because they wanted to he around other smart scientists. They wanted to be able to have graduate students will good said makes me I made the point you are making people will come to other smart people are that's the magnet that attracts you know what's funny as their. What just said, is just a fact of human nature. When you want to do well, when you want to win when you want to be the best, then your own personal gain tends to take a back seat. Do the accomplishment of a greater goal, for instance sports stars he'll, take a salary cut so that real
players can stay on their team. More they'll give up being the number one guy on a team to go be in a team effort where they're pretty much guarantee the championship. Ursus, this is part of the way we think I'm going to tell your agent that you voluntarily agreed to take a pay caught. It hurts me at the right comedy cloud and things are going to have to happen. I'm gonna have to tell my agent to give me pay first, and then you could tell him I'm willing to take that break. I'm so freed I had fully. That was like a missing He said my total world view of this. That is not just some believe, come here because you're being persecuted there, it's come here because as the other really smart people here and then the lead, the residence this intellectual community will not only benefit you battle, Beth it all of science
and any good scientists is, will tell you. I want to see science grow, even if I'm not part of it, because there's a curiosity that we all carry to this dear, and whoever can move it. That's great exact Amy. You find that one of the things the Chinese we're having difficult it had been trying to recruit back some of the best and brightest. Betraying to reach that the United States trend here and they will fall. They would say to them will build. The biggest lab will will give you unlimited research funds. What a lot of chinese professors was we don't have the best graduate students. We want to work with the best graduate students and those people are at Berkeley or Harvard now a change. Now university in Changwon, one particular have superb graduate students and so that your beginning to see, or many of the best and brightest go back to China. So when I go back to again the Manhattan project. I go back to the APOLLO project. Each of those sort of military motivations. I mean we don't like what
bring APOLLO as military, but NASA was in response, of course, to Sputnik and the threat that that that we perceived by that. But you look at me, look at bit. There was, of course, Einstein came over to like you said this. Of flux of jewish scientist, then, after the Second World WAR, we build our space programme on the back of Werner VON Braun, for example, You have all these people Enrico Fermi. We about labs named for this guy Fermi Labs. Ok, he's a tearing. His wife is jewish and All this is going on, and we say this is marker. That's exactly has not even being fine tooth picked form for what tat is it just of course, and I am of course, to just emphasise one piece of this massive government: funding people. Don't like to Jordan Point this out. When you talk about your government funding is bad. You know, then you sail the government shouldn't big winners or losers. So look at the microchip industry that the beating heart of the computer evolution is the microchip Right Texas
from its in basically invent said, and then that the U S government through the AIR force buys something like sixty to seventy percent of all microchips produce? The cost initially is one thousand pro microchip. It goes down to thirty dollars per microchip because the government keeps by We basically allows for scale which then drops the price exactly the same thing that that will be we are trying to do in the solar industry or the wind. Illiteracy are the people in the gut and who are doing this. They have this foresight. Are you telling me this We have. We normally have much credit to government officials. I think we have. If you look at DARPA, which is the agency in the defence it department that does the stairs Sicily recently interviewed thing out of DARPA list. Our talk is really good fence, advanced projects, research agency agency and then, and in it there was a arpanet, which is the precursor to the internet, was in fact gear came up. The defence apartment effect Invent said Joe.
P s, eyes is part of the defence department. I think I think that the main thing we have to realise is you have to throw a lot of research, says at the science is expensive. Basic research is the most important. But you also need the development of technologies Of course you gonna miss lots. Of course, some companies like cylinder will go bankrupt, but you know, if you think about it, the same the government made alone long December for about six hundred million dollars, it made alone to Tesla four six hundred million dollars. Now what happened? Cylinder went bankrupt test. Has got has gone up nourished, ten thousand percent rate. Guess who it all that money, the private sector, the shareholders and Miss Elon Musk so the government loses the money. We, the taxpayers, the, but take the blame. We don't get the upside down just the nature of it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't work for. Would you get the upside in the sense that if a government births in industry in the industry, has tax base that comes back to the government, exactly
and each scientifically invention produces unknown, otherwise rise, Vienna and just for the record start talk was burst by the government. On the National Science Foundation grant them. The police action in We were trying to do that. Mozilla more like the cylinder one would have thought we were doing. Ok, just look at our notes for this? That apparently, of course Benjamin Franklin must go back to him when the first great scientists of the United States, he I mean I evil books on research and electricity, so he's he's probably he might even be been a better scientists. Then founding father, I mean, if you look at what his record is and what he's a little discovered in the book city public, but regardless he he his parents fled England, because a religious person
mission and he's here and so he'd. Basically, an emigrant is immigrant lineage which had been easy back then I guess, but he could not see. That thing is, though, doesn't really count when you we're not, round Skype like it's just why weren't so give let's get to that, still need to that. Their role is getting that so so so so so flurried, let me be devils advocate here. So we have these, were. I could cite all the famous scientists of the twentyth century that shaped modern. We have one of em Braun from Germany who burst the heap. He basically designed the Saturn five rocket that got us to the moon because he had that watch and and and awareness from his from developing the v to rocket in that. Basically, the first ballistic missile left earth's atmosphere found its target, fell on the target right. That's that's a ballistic missile the two being the Rockets that the Germans developed an and re an end,
rain on London in nineteen forty correct, correct of rain a little too. A word for these things to say they clearly fall out of the sky. Supersonic. Let's see it's not it's not like a whistle here. Don't you do not you don't just walk in and then the block explodes. Ok, that's how debts and my dad was a graduate student and in London in nineteen forty four five and was having coffee with a bunch of his friends in a cafe. He was steady and they sent him stay for. Why said now I gotta get back. I gotta get some work done he walks out and he turned his back and veto rocket hit the cafe everyone there every front of his died. If he had just stayed when they told him I have one more cup of coffee, he wouldn't be, will bend and man there. We wouldn T Mohammed currently have this conversation right, no order. I think,
the other way, that's how many others might I've been having conversations not because they are actually did he ever did he ever use that as a motivating factions factor to get you to do your work, though its aim of that would do yeah. You know what I got back to work and I'm alive they differ. We will differ by my dad February. Had a tough bringing uses of self made man- and he always said I went through stuff- I don't want you to have to go through his attitude, let me just complete this list Steve jobs as we know he is his family Let me just traceable Syria, remembering the singers actual father was. It was a syrian immigrant, semi, Elon, Musk, South Africa in and makes a lot of sense is so great and we are also all so new Gingrich without our strong posture on that. I- and I think that you know that's. It seems to me and no brainer in one of the parts of immigration reform. One hopes eventually when we get to the heart of question. As you say, as we taken lots of people who are not like that, it's called the family. You
So Do you say? Yes, you can immigrate. If you have these, and of ambitions or if you gonna, if you're gonna, eat what we'll let you in if you go get a degree and in engineering I mean is that is it? Is that the devil's advocate posture here that has not yet been resolved in this conversation? So there's no question: we should take any of those kinds of people I mean. There's. I think Michael Bloomberg at the idea of you. If you get a phd in science, you should have a green card staple to your degree when you get it accepted a lot of sense, as your question was also also new Gingrich, without very strong posture. On that I- and I think that you know that seems to me and no brainer in one of the parts of immigration reform. One hopes eventually will get to the heart of question is used is we taken lots of people who are not like that? It's called a family unification policy. I think we're probably taken to me that way too few up was skills and brain based. But do you know
is also something to be said for the sheer drive that that low skill immigrants bring. I obviously you in right numbers and in a way that can they can be integrated but the biggest problem for rich countries. You knew you lose that drive, you lose that hunger? I mean. What we all have an area and a more fortunate, the baron circumstance. The kids are gonna, be grateful. Say again again, have the same drive right round, but, but I did. Arab Emirates has a similar problem. It's a very wealthy country, but whose, The clean, the laundry and it's gonna, but but some guy who comes from you know, took Org or Guatemala hundred owned use was willing to risk everything abandoned? You know home a cultural come there come here to wash dishes just two excellent hours a day. That's a godsend. DR in energy and by the way that listen might end up doing something remarkable his
Children that end up doing something or american you have to keep in mind- is the children that those people tend to be the ones who that same dry, but there are also educate here in Amerika, which gives them a distinct advantage. When it comes to rigour, DR than American, with the same american education go so they're all do what we're doing is were creating better Americans are so we gotta go to break, When we come back more of our conversation on, especially of cosmic queries. Let's make it smart again for me to go and still hey I've got no secret for you. When I consider singing all of the ads on this shell there just one way to get out of hearing there go to patriarch arms last startled and support. Where does at the five dollar level or higher? To listen the star talk ad free.
You can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player and never we're here, another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio I mean I'm just thinking I mean just SAM is distorted. Like you, we don't have much time all the strong welcome back to start radio. We ve been talking about the impact of immigration on science and technology in America, and we got Chuck nice to help me out here. Deep thinking. Dude
it's all good comics or by the way. This is true. I was gonna, say I'd. Try to keep that. I try to lower expectations as much as possible in the set out our works, and we regret our institute. Guess, journalists, author and more time actual friend of mine for Red Security, for read the great to have you on the show what it just get back in just real quickly. So so would you so when, when, if a policy that says will stop all immigration evaluated and say: okay here is the presidium through which will walk if we judge that you will be the right person, for this is their risk of that abuse. With that kind of happen, Here is a go: didn't it northern Europeans not to southern Europeans and there's a lot of judgment being placed on who was worthy and who was not. I think the big danger is that we think we can fit We can identify talent and drive and ambition and creativity and those a complicated things. So, yes, we should do more scope,
Its wish probably do a little bit less family unification. We should get the balance right. We should immediate family, you mean extended for exactly as you can basically and we were, but by the way, I'm in again in the old days in the nineteenth century, one person from a village in Sicily would come and then bring the whole village. He ever I myself it's we have. We have done that We have managed to absorb it too, and that is partly what has given this country the kind of diversity and and an richness it has bud. You know, in terms of on the numbers. Maybe more more scope, they, maybe less of this, as you say, extended family unification, but I really it's important or remember, we no, when we taken a ten year old kid, what that kid is gonna, be whether they re right they may he or she may be a poor guatemalan that doesn't in that the euro talent sprinkled evenly throughout the planet, and you might be getting amazing people, even though they look like their poor peasants from didn't Europe basis.
But are not doing well in the world. So one of the quick before we get a ticket to queries words, you suicide, these from have queries from all over the internet and Sony incarnation where you can find startup excellent, just so just one other just to extract extracted from you that love haven't you here, because this lake is good. So there's the flip side of is that no one in America talks about. If we are so great that everyone wants to come to us, The brain drain for other countries were getting the best of other countries, sort of joy. Sucking their intellectual capital into our borders. If we they stronger world will be less capable to do that. Even if we wanted to say when I think about this needs a very good question, as you can imagine, we haven't grown up in Indian come here. I would hear this often people say why leaving India? You know that your country needs you, but here's the truth. I actually do think down to sprinkled throughout their
millions and millions of talented Indians. I'm not that special, that what special is the environment that this country has created where smart and talented people can flourish there's another putting this, there was a member of parliament and opposition member of parliament to stir one day indian parliament and ask that then Prime Minister, in their Gandhi, said Madame Prime Minister, can you explain to me one question I noticed when I look around the world. Indian seem to do really well everywhere. Cept in India? What does that tell you about how you run this country, the others? No answer, there's no good in it. It's all about creating an ecosystem where talent can flourish. It's the problem in India, China or Africa is not that there on talented people? It's you haven't created the ecosystem that some further about the project and in Africa, and look for the next Einstein, Black Einstein, basically Aurelia in Africa. In Africa,
writers very core of this. I have no doubt in my mind that there is somebody ass, talented libyan items around out and he or she exists. The question is: can you create the go system that lead Einstein do what it did in Germany and in very large comic than ever see this there's eyesight point basketball right right and it's an Einstein had a promising careers are bats warbler until an ankle injury, guitar. To the important work that little well, who knew there was already a black eyed. What would you have jack? We got our cosmic query, so, let's just jump right into its as we already set up the fact that where we get, these are the first one that we always take is from a patriarch patron, because they support us financially,
and we put him to, the total is be convicted of capitalist, they paid. They go right to the topic of this kind of, like God, even ashamed to say that not Congress in lobbying you'll give lobbyists for the show you got there. Lobbyists for this recently Trojan borders, you're all lobbyists just drain the swamps. Let's hear less from this year from the freeloading this during the galaxy drain, the Galaxy and we got here is our first from Renee Douglas and says Renee from Pittsburgh. Pennsylvania says: why is it important to you that the United States its lead the world in science. You speaking to you directly me. Are you just Rudy, for your own team, so to speak, or is there a better reason, so I think its net Roger Route for the home team and you'd want to do that to the point of waging war. I think that's my opinion in that regard, but you look for the home team and I grew up in the United States in the second half
the twentieth century, which had a lot of problems of its own, you know you're cold war, civil rights movement, campus unrest but in there we were going to the moon and We all knew that that required innovations in science and technology. We knew this, and so I would be upset if that that sense of inventing a future where no longer happening on the soil in which I was born out? I would be absurd, However, I am even more upset if it didn't happen anywhere else in the world right. Sir yeah. I wanted to have been the one who discovered the Higgs both on in a Texas super collider, got its budget cut in eighteen. Ninety three, having judge what what's the value of this, because I my view is: Peace- had just broken out: nineteen, eighty nine and when breaks out who needs physicists far as anybody thinks, so the pigs Beauchamp gets discovered
in the large hadron collider in Switzerland to Europe collaboration, we're part of that collaboration, but we're not the leader. Not when I leader, The quarterback read without the court of Justice on the Tina to want a team that is very on American. Do not pay the quarter by. Oh, you know we're supposed to be recorded, that which was really the quarterback was, whereas a scientist world delighted, but as an American. So that's just I'm just being honest with my feelings there, but if it as always happens somewhere, if the whole world closed down, then do all moving back. Where the cave to argue just bought, but by the way it does matter to american economics and basically the way you get. Economic growth is two things how many people do have and how much productivity do have, in other words its. The number of people who, in the workforce, labour and its productivity. What happened, ok, each of those are of those people and activity rises only through technology, technological innovation and science. Yes, exactly and just to be clear, you can the fit. This is a slightly contracts
statement, but I want to be very frank about it at the time when the arts grows economically every case I've seen its because they have been touched by TAT now Gee, I'm sorry, that's a lid enables it to occur in thy, who, I think, there's only one way and there's a mutually reinforcing thing. The arts feed creativity which allows for me this is the full stories about Einstein when he would get stuck on a physics permits to stop and you go up. His violin these That is what our something in his head in his mind that he couldn't understand so ideal you have a kind of you know any other symbiosis income of creativity right right. I let's move on, I loved, Chris importance as this. What does the scientific community think or hope is the next big discovery on the horizon? That would be really wonderful if it happened here in the United States,
so many things happening that are extraordinary me. I think that if you look at some of the most dramatic, the new frontiers I think are are in biology, so you might my age. Your daughter is yoga she's, a huge fan of needles to sitting outside in cutting school. I might add, she's getting school for this- is that this goddesses schooling scouts us call on other school. Don't she was talking about the brain episode that she was watching about where that needed, one Nova signs now and which are now, and if you think about how mapping the brain is gonna transform our understanding of the brain. What happens to medicine adjusted to knowledge leave the way this is actually in a weird, two uncharted territory out just beginning to answer. The frontiers are just that and then you have area but big, but even more exciting. You Mary it to the revolution and in big data whereby the brain is going to produce, may they did, the volume of data is gonna, be so large. It's only the new supercomputing rain invented big data. Ass. It s exactly so distressing.
Jimmy, that's the one, but this so many Emmi eyes exterior. I agree for either the the brain certainly nervous, asking our science a size I as a frontier. Also, of course I yet is related related can will we have autonomy? Robots can think for themselves without have Did you solve a problem that you hand it so that say that you're coming around problem robot? Will you saw this wrong Joan dams itself, determine limiting sentient now meal in our ranks you got let's go to you know I gotta do this now. Because I have seen quite a few of these questions come across as I'm reading Ben Novel camps question as representative to for all of you who have written this type of question, not
for this shell, but another show that coastal with Bill nigh on a similar type of subjects, why the star talk, have episodes that either have nothing to do or vaguely encompass, astronomy, physics or other science? If I wanted- Liberal politics, you'll, like this periphery. Add just turn on the man said, is there a reason. I read that question is because this is not political. What we are talking about, what would tat much of the world as a better place whatever, and how are you slicing dissect politically right, its people's own motives, but there is some fundamental reality that has to matter here before that conversation even happens right, but, but I can address that I had I can say I can enter this world naively as a scientist and think
So if we choose do science, but but then you wake up and realise that any sites that happens is embedded in a political system wrecked, I'm not an island right, and I have to beat much some of my colleagues over the head who cry foul when NASA spends money on something they'll think they should spend money on the space station or on on demand programme, which has always been a controversial the path of spending relative to appear research, and I go to my colleagues- and I say you are treating NASA as that which your private funding ages, when it was born in a cold war environment and they are. There are the GEO political mission statements that NASA fulfils, and you are not the only one in town that it serves and in fact the science budget of NASA historically has never been more maxed out about thirty five percent. The longterm averages around a fourth and all the rest go
two geopolitically driven decisions for what NASA does in this world and end, if you think about that another point we were in earlier, if, if american science of the region, where the forefront of global science is one of the three things I don't want, your goddamn Lloyd due to were voice. We took in law of immigrants? And then we spend less of government money on those political Jews, and so if you want to create great science. Yes, you have to have great scientist, but you ve got to figure out. How do you get them you create environment where they flourish. How did I he has given all of that is embedded in a political system. That's gotta recognise that, in order to make wise decisions regarding going forward, that's all that's it's! It's not more complex and complicated, but that the driver governor, simple, Edison, more political than that, and by the way this used to be totally by partisan. It was eyes now who set the dead, the the hum them. The spending MAX Eisenhower spending three percent of GDP on basic signs Reagan increase the spending
is reasonably that we have gotten into a situation where everything is political rice uselessly live republican and this used to be by partisan, and not only that, of course, under President Nixon we form the our mental protectionism, ac right and the national channels and atmospheric administration at Noah right. So let your right for me when I look historically there's a lot of co. Mingling of political platforms that are in the service of science and historically even the National Science Foundation has been by partisan. Although the motives were little different, you know This is so, and many would complain that they see the aren't spending on a rag and a lot of it went to star wars which, with which many in my scientifically the objective two, but at the end of the day, even if the motors are different, science gets done. Science political, but we are not politicizing it so that they we're not coming down on one side or another, we're coming on the side of science. One could even if their supply side, it doesn't
sign if its anti sign, I can tell you the consequences of what it is to be science, that's all that even but even still we'll take a quick break and we'll be back soon with nice. My special yesterday, the reeds occur we can t we marking the secrets of you and everything orbiting around it is historic ties,
welcome back to start on radio cosmic queries in a special instalment called make America smart again. I've got four read the car is my special guest, and you know this man, I mean he's a GEO political genius and I gotta go feature coming out on CNN with specialist is especial primetime documentary. Why one hour on the most powerful man in the world, President United States who we says Vladimir Putin
throw down front should love that will make the case you judge yeah you're, just as I think we have to have a brief clip on that. Just in case you haven't heard for redo his thing, which check it out. You made a monopoly, but one man seemed utterly unsurprising by the trumpet dream into new criminal limitation. Believe this happened to credit, and that means that he won the. U S election, the man who is simultaneously president of Russia and China and the United States
I'm going to get one thing when I was in graduate school at least half of everyone in the sciences and engineering were foreign nationals, and at that time they would come get their phds. The masters and stay as the rest of the world rises up and as America fade, we become less of a carrot for those very same graduate students and I've seen many of them go back to their home country to China to India. Will there be a point when they won't even come where's graduate students, because those fully trained phds now train their own graduate students, and then we have this. Reverse flux of the intellectual capital of the world. The great question my own senses it'll be a long time before that happens, because the one thing that the end states still absolutely dominates is higher education. If you look at the list the top twenty universities in the world, eighteen or american
fifty in the world, thirty, six or american, and it is hard to design a really Superbowl class university, but there's a lot that goes into into that overnight again, over nine hundred and year, prison have huge advantages, haven't been rounded in the seventeenth century ass, you have lots of money, they can obtain a cot. Endowments beg you to tell you that I'll tell you one piece of work: but I wonder about when you look at a place like China was at the heart of western science has been the ability to question authority for the graduate student to tell the truth. You're full of it. Your ideas are wrong. I remember reading these ideas are outdated. I got a better idea, Niels boy who used to begin his lectures, physicists, great physique stuff from the turn of the century. You to begin his lectures and but Hagen Della students. I want you to see. I want God by telling you you must approach lecture by assuming everything that I say might be untrue might be, might be falsified or another that sense of really being
willing to challenge authority- that is not yet true in in a place like China, and I wonder if there is a cultural barriers which will mean that take even longer for that. I thought a lot about this and accept that came to it from the Les noble angle. When I see little children in malls, if is a toddler just stepped out of a stroller and apparently get took it back it now right in American Norma? Normally there why No? No, no, that's really black pit anatomy black is apparent and let you know sober airway just how to deliver its in the culture, its culture. It is in the culture, the culture, what you made a very boarding middle school. So it's also something else. It's you talked about. We had a conversation long time ago about the fact that in other cultures, may not see the aspirations to do things that we that we take for granted in this culture. When I grow up, I'm gonna be an astronaut right
What you want be. When do we want to be when you grow up in it and in other countries. Unreachable goals are actually tat down right, where's here, as I always like that go ahead right, but I, but I would do want to emphasise, is important to remember these are not God, given it and is the United States has, can lose them very easily. If we don't creed, maintain the culture of openness and creativity. Got shed his grace on me. What were you- and I do think that neither by there needs to be a greater focus on science. You like this either one of them. My favorite lies from one of Tom Friedman books than your timescale missed. It was in China and he was noticing a unit. A bill gates was. It happened to be there, and people are going crazy over gates because he was this computer ways I mean yes, he was also very rich, but the combination- and he but I guess I realized the problem that the difference between China and India and China Bill Gates is Britney Spears in America,
Brittany spheres. As british we venerate Bob, I gods they turned geeky computer scientists into pop icons loops. You ve done it again for aid. Gimme another one. Here we go speaking what free just here's Bob Long Meyer from Facebook who says this, given the current political climate, how do you suggest we help advance? antipathy literacy with people who view science throw a negative political lens, very, very good queried had what did your solution here? If I'm trying to get people to understand what sciences and how and why it works and their swept up into a world view that does not allow that in that's. What do you do in the world of politics? What has the world done in the history of this exercise?
you know it's very frustrating, because it's not just an assault on science. It's an assault on expertise, it's in its and solid some fundamental level on knowledge, and I think there is already there tendency to say that all this knowledge is either biased our opinion, NATO. You have your facts. I have my folks know. You can't have alternate facts. You can. You can disagree You can draw conclusions on the basis of those five. How much of that isn't FED is fed by the fact that in politics and in religion, people are very there, isn't that absolute right or wrong, and so people are a cost to arguing what they want to be true. Now you ve at science to the mix and they feel like they can have the conversation in the same way. You know, I think it's coming at a populist moment where people think that all the exports get everything wrong. And I was reading the New York Times recently, there was an article by
Steve, Bannon Donald Trump Chief strategist, whose having everybody read a book called the best and the brightest. This is a book about how the Smart Kennedy advisers gotta. America into Vietnam and the idea that the model of the book is meant to be the way he sees it. All. These exports were wrong: disastrously Lastra disease In fact, if you read the book what's interesting is actually what it points out is all the that the political advisers will overconfident Eric. They were not listening to the Rio expertise of the of the historians, the people who understood Vietnam, who understood China, culture. Culture that it was actually a story about expertise that was ignored because people the political ends which was anti communism, which they filtered everything through while wow that makes perfect sense? Ok check what alright. Let's move on, shall we too and coal way and says Love STAR talk. Do you foresee the future of international club?
This is changing as a result of the new frankly barbaric policies that have been put in place now at this is maybe when this comes out, this will have changed, but as of now, there is still a recording their so called. As of this recording, there's still a so called immigration ban. That was in place. Then then a federal judge said no and that's where we are at this juncture. When I make a statement- and I want free to react to cast scientifically when we collaborate internationally. We do so at international conferences. They don't happen to be in your department or in your country York. You can still collaborate because you get to get there. We create these occasions tank where there is an intellectual discourse and their work jobs, their international conferences and the like, he does have your own like science date is, has high its economy and its like. You got your own thing out there, and so I've been on Malta, papers where their international collaboration with it, and so so,
Oh, I can say that I dont require there to be. Immigration. Gave me two still collaborate: the internet enables that rights, international conferences, and we'll get so so freed what, you say if all the world is it is this fertile landscape, communication, then who needs immigrants at that point. There is no question You can do more electronically than you ever have been able to before, but you know, then comes back to who do we want the United States to beat the centre the place where people? I remember after nine eleven, there was a period where there was similar kinds of Europe, as is an immigration slow down and increased vetting within colonies. Zena Forbearing, calling on a lot of scientific conferences, were cancelled. That we're gonna be held in the United States and they have in Europe. They held him in China. Now, if we you know, if we keep doing this kind of thing,
you know it's not the end of the world, but it certainly will mean that dinner masses of sugar, a mouse will shift, and frankly, the Europeans are more than happy to pick this others of french presidential candidate read about this is is he said you know, I just want everybody to know anyone who finds that, therefore, having difficulty doing science in America come to France give you will roll out the red carpet for you and that's the french ethics Asia. That alone. That's a wake up. Call me a huge wake up call to everyone in this country that is like Ryan Gosling talking to your wife at a common heritage, there's lizard You ever have you ever get tired of this jackass over here I am Ryan Gosling you're more than welcome become over and have coffee. I had to tell you some you're gonna start treat your woman alone. I had a similar earlier fought and I was really read this news article about this attempt to get ready for the next asteroids. We can deflected
the sky and by the time I got to the bottom, was Russia organizing it asking whose with them to make this happen? That's it and I felt like wait. A minute I was just so expecting. That would be us inviting others to participate, I I realize that this. If, when you fade, it's not a cliff, you just sort of slow really desires and every thus rises up and make them they have conversations at their table exactly whether or not you are invited right and in Ireland fact that you said when you fade. It's not a cliff is indeed a slippery slope and when people use that for they need to take in mine exactly what the visual is. It is a forty five degree angle where you are slow, Lee sliding jail lying but does not get any tracks and you just lie in the way. So that's what it is our view how to view a tough one, quick one. If you got a quick on ok, here's, here's, a quick one- and this is for free as terrible things as things are
better relations with Russia improve science and space. Exploration, yeah sure look what we should have good relations with Russia. We should have good relations with China. We show good relations with all these countries, the problem as Europe. They are established, Do you think of when Russia invades another its neighbour when it I'm access batch of another country? You know something that basically hasn't happened for decades and decades and it contravening the national order you ve got to do something about it? So does we'll be away and we buy the. We ve managed to do this even during the cold war and to cooperate, but also have certain rules of the road that matter, but I think that we must make their work so tight. I want you to go quickly that, while we were still in cold war with Russia, we have they apply of soil use joint space programme, and this was the early signs that maybe we can be friends so just because there is transgressor behaviour in the world from one country to the to another,
should that that should not have to stop what might be signed through space collaboration. I think I think, in fact, is all the more reason to do it, because you know you want to build as many bonds as you can between countries. We don't better in isolation. This is wonderful book by met Ridley about the Euro. Human beings managed as extraordinary rise for Europe from being just just animals and The most important points out is: whenever we encountered diversity weep, we flourished aid, you know just even scientifically, as human beings we with more weakened and counter the other, the more we can collaborate with people who think differently look different. They study differently this that the end product is better whose who's leading the wit of a hundred years ago, who said, there's no greater pain to the human spirit than the prospect of coming up with a new idea.
I know that one so I'd think we're going to say was Neil regrets that you can take it you're. So what you say is, I think, can be clearly demonstrated, but there's The sole speaks differently about who you want to hang out with. We want to create the the homogeneous bubble, but that's why you want to get past your comfort zone and into that into that I'd area aren't finally out it's hard at its against, and it seems to be against human nature to welcome in the people who look different from you and sound different from you and think differently from you and have different religion or political idea. We ve been part of the same tribes for thousands and thousands of you think about it for most of in existence. We work we grew up. We grew then die one mile from where we were born right now, we're saying, but all these people who campaigned in that and ruled as your tribe and an even though those tribes are not sit in you, their best sending criminals. Are you
rapists itself? It is time to end. I think, that's what we're out of time check out. Another tried for co hosting today, and thank you to special gift. CNN. What do they call you guys that cars anchor CNN anchor four reads a courier. You all know it show GPS! adult miss it I'd try to catch it every weekend. When I don't catch it on CNN, go so so free thanks for joining us on the special edition of STAR Talk, which is the inaugural version of cosmic queries, we're we're trying to make America smarter This has been the other grass Thyssen on start up until next time. Looking down on my I'll drop, the organs wish.
Listen! The star talk: commercial, free, joint star talk on Patria for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patriarch dot com slap star, talk, radio!
Transcript generated on 2020-01-24.