Skip. The commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, commercial free. Welcome to start off your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide knocked off begin right now. Definitely STAR talk radio, I'm your host kneeled grass, Thyssen, Almond, astrophysicist and director of New York Cities, Hayden Planetarium, that the American Museum of Natural History The following show is the second part of alive live. Show we recorded on February twenty. Fourth, two thousand fourteen at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, known to locals as Bam. In addition to my co host comedian, Eugene Merman, we would join on stage that night by Northside

Heather, Berlin Bill, nine science guy comedian, Michael HE and black, the actor Paul ROD and STAR they hit tv, show the Big Bang theory, my embryonic NASA, did a study on neural plasticity. Your brain and space took have labour, so in space you are in Cyril G and so in zero g sense of balance, which requires your bodies, awareness of gravity, other things, you're vision near sense of day and night, because in space, if you're orbiting earth the sun rises and sets every forty five minutes could totally mess with your rhythms and they did it study and they found out. The brain has plasticity to it. We're

you will completely adapt to those changed conditions, not only that the brain build new brain so and in some cases, permanently responds to this environment, and so because of the permanence of someone's plasticity. There's suggesting that you should not bring kids into space because they don't know what a permanent change and a kid we like as an adopt. What is it like an adult? What happens in this? What is prohibitive for Europe louder, people have their eyes change shape right, losing where's likely become a square, can have the high old eggs in comparison with. Part of the hour. I need you should be more specifically go into space with fighter pilot eyes come back and they don't have very good closer produced. Last back I'd be careful, though, when you said permanent changes, because if you turn my Europe

this that, if it could change, one way could also change back another way, but I think the reason why not to bring developing brains into space or children is because their critical periods of development and if they miss certain stimuli during that critical period, then there could be one you're talking about circadian rhythms, correct, among other things, young. So talking about our awareness of day and night you're saying those things can reset so that you have a normal body period that is shorter than what it is. If you are on, while it really just rupture, sweet cycle sure- and you don't get its deeper rem sweep and rigour, all of that developmental, he would be really really about. Your men cannot imagine, like my kids, a pain in the ass, I'm just like an hour and a half fly through a mad

ending? Then it's a man, I think it is sort of Canada met with a jet blue, where you get anything else from television something. So I wonder how it there's this neuro plasticity, we're body can adapt to stress in the ways that were measured in space. Why don't we adapt more on earth? Why do people stress out and end up in mental Who knows how much has a two very different thing, a night nano? Why do you want me different questions if your brain can adapt with all this plasticity that the Neuro scientist or boasting of why we have people just wreaking out here on earth? Is everything tell me why? Well this

One thing I went around actually met me what extraordinary abilities way outside the norm of what we think is possible external memory in a tolerance, the paint you hosted a tv show there was this discovery channel, show called Superhuman showdown and we went around the world to find people with these extraordinary abilities. One person could hold his breath underwater for twenty two minutes and not be dead and not be tat. He could actually the fish, even just a little by it's amazing how far we can actually push ourselves. In reality in a brain, so I think a lot of what people stress about as they think they can adapt. But really we can adapt well beyond what we think were capable of doing why people are a mental institution. Is another question is a lot of reasons why people insane so to speak, but I don't think it's because of lack of neural plasticity.

I think that it is a cause of heavy metal. Music beat. As I say, you can modify the brain with in certain biological constraints. So few born with a certain predisposition or emu, just structural differences in the brain. You can we push it so far, but we can definitely go far beyond what we think we can go. So if we see someone else s ability, Then can we all try to have that ability, and so these superhuman people I met. They all practice a lot and lot of ours dedicated, but they also had certain like the guy could hold his breath underwater had a greater lung capacity in general. He started out with that, and then he pushed it further and further. So I think we can all go further with in our particular. Is this the sports Jane that talks about the exceptional athletic ability that we don't really think about when we see olympic athletes there at a whole different physiological level? We would think o Michael Phelps is a great no, like his arms, are really really long, his bigger practically web, but his body,

yet what is you watch? Swimmers done high level, yet all about twice as fast as sure as their bodies are urgently it could swim all day. I'll. Never look like that because I was not born with the genetic predisposition to have illegal long arms at a website. I think you look great. Really. What matters in question, but also more pedestrian level. Talking about sport, you see certain populations like people from the Dominican Republic, which has such a small country, but have a large portion of people entering the major League baseball easy because we had. This is not a dangerous question. We know you're about to address. I was not going into racism, although I wonder if you want to know about something somebody else asked about observing other people in pure groups, ascending to higher levels and therefore seeing firsthand what's possible. Does that make you more susceptible to this

I think that's a huge sociological environmental behavioral influence, but I dont know wording legislation have a heavy prodigy for baseball you're born with certain genetic predisposition towards you know, maybe better athletic proud, but it gets these different evolution of muscle fibre honour that they were dancing around. It could be very controversial. There was a book written called the Bell curve about intelligence, and it said we did this whole study and look the populations and x number of people from a certain type of background have the highest I q and others. Don't it really can lead circulars, Jews? What's happened to be asked in Massachusetts I think we have other factor as the baseball fan very strong motivator

Those countries is, you can play baseball year. I was just in Minneapolis this morning, very child nuts, because the snow white, the balls, and then you have raised is yours, this extraordinary motivation of money. You can make it in the big weeks and have you ever seen the World Baseball classic yeah, it's mostly where ordinary player, but it's one more click to hit to change the topic Isaac. Let's talk about you.

We're back for our fleet. We're moment why the hell did we have to sleep what a waste of time that is, I think you say why the hell do. We have We literally learning karate believable a guy can be learnt in IRAN. I am reading on learning. I'm having fun, as indeed I gotta go to sleep could be semi comatose for the next. They don't even alien came to earth and you haven't a great conversation with use me I've too late summer, comatose maximum hours back. I wonder what's wrong with you. On sixteen may have maybe a baby was why we sleep. The latest theory that mustn't lunar scientific evidence is pointing towards is the way the brains of clean itself out. So during the day you take,

all this stimulation and it's almost impossible for your brains, the kind of issue Great, all of it every day would be cluttered, so it night what happens. This sort of approving it solidifies the information that it wants to keep me whether or not is accurate or correct, or anything without this cleaning out process be looked at people where new deprived them of sleep and it causes also to problems, including it can relate to things like Alzheimer's. Because I'm the plaques entangles that form actually that sleep is a kind of a way that helps clear out those flaxen things that could potentially form the protein rich people who don't get as much. We don't want to be clear. She saying that people with Alzheimer's or simply Frida precisely what are we to draw if your sleep?

you're gonna get so remember, play baseball up up up up up works, so won't like were memories, for example like if you're setting for an exam, actually you'll do better. If you get a good night's sleep, it's not good to just cram the whole night before, because the brain convince lit a five, the kind of associations that were made and get rid of the nonsense and the noise art so sobered. Some people, sleep five hours, others, nine should a five hour person be sleep. More than ninety percent be sleeping, less that it's hard to say. No, I don't think there's any Zack number on any people, there's a lot of things out there that he should get x number of hours of sleep, but really everybody's different. Some people just don't need that much. I don't get a lot of sleep. My feeling is that I'm, if engender, We are productive, functional, getting the things that we want to get done, there's going to be so variability, therefore sure, ok, so also, if you dont get sleep, that's like a form of torture. Your brain goes crazy. What happens? Is people start soon?

two hallucinate yeah yeah. They started to develop because they get the brain is unable to properly prune out and all the information can get kind of jumble than people. Also, if you just dropped R M sleep exactly, but an interim sleep is where a lot of that happens. It is an individual thing, moody and people like Edison or Winston Churchill. These high functioning people who slept for four hours and eight or two hours and is actually an extraordinary, a large number of people that Bill Clinton is another one, Margaret Thatcher. They would only sleep very theorist within that. We take these power naps during the day and there could be something to that, but they also take at least they take those little many naps and that maybe the brain can sort of revamp itself. The entire staff and many assistance in drawing up periodically relax drugs on the people. So what they found was that the remsen was disrupted by astronauts through in order to see sunrise sunset

Forty five minutes they couldn't get the rhythms going. Then you can just pull down the shades. Couldn't I would have thought I would have thought that cover your eyes. I would have thought you think all coach glass, Does it have a little thing how they ve been the space shuttle coach clients, maybe get a little studies, show that if you deprive people particularly of ram sleep, that they have to make up for it later on, so that they have more hours of rent sleep when you allow them to sleep later, ok, so this is a feature of our human species, not failure. Of our design. I mean I mean if there was, we could design it better without sleep had been great, but so far it is, but it's all species right, there's no species! That does not need sleep I don't know that I dont know always with algae fish.

There are low metabolic periods, I would say for all sorts of vertebrates. Yes, I mean yes, yes and it always arrest period this arrest period. Even without will we call sleep. There is a respite from an evolutionary standpoint. One could ask if it's a big advantage to needlessly. Would these people be more successful, become captains of industry get the extraordinary wealthy, and while there must be something well, the answer is there must be something advantageous. I e incorporating a tremendous amount of input from the day that can then help you make different kinds. Decisions, more complicated decisions, correct get the next day she saw, the digestive information, has more value to the day after it s If I were evolution, airily advantage was not like those we value, but there's a man of, I think, there's, maybe it stop it there's some battles that out.

People only half their brain in the other. Half is alert. Is its office where it so there are against. Part of them is aware for any sort of little predators coming on the other are sleeping piteously nigger zones with George Sober there's an issue like lions, sweet twenty hours a day, something like that is natural I don't know everything about it. Every day, repugnant, zero scientist alliance that what they do they sleep for twenty hours a day. I beg you not know what to do so with your kids know. I went on Safari once said: I remember learning that The way is all right. Debris males do all of their hunting in the mail lines is go in and eat first automatically.

Then then they go back to sleep. We already there called there's, a bunch of them how to ride out of life, a murder of crooks, a boring of penalties. Back to my premise. Let you get away. I actually, I'm I'm like five or six hour person as mom, like farming, have ours exactly and up absent minded we can, but during the week I take, I take a Saturday ash about now for about twenty minutes. I give my kids a cookie, and I say I'll be a much better mother. If I can sleep for twenty minutes on this couch with earplugs, and I promise I'll call, you get five and a half in eight wow. So when, presumably when they were much younger, you got notions.

Well yeah? I'm in honestly, it's amazing to see what it's like with a new born. I was a breastfeeding mom and I was up literally every two hours for about four or five years. Literally every two hours did you study yourself at that point I wrote my thesis. Breastfeeding. While I literally laying down nursing and typing he's doing data analysis and writing an ending my thesis with my first sun and yeah. But it's amazing to sleep again language of plant origin gifts of fibre to how many hours sleep. Now I have a three month period but and breastfeeding. So this is our most restless partisan right at the other ass, these adults seven and a half years anymore. I claim I'm skilled at the power. Now I put in the hours. Ok- A third of our power,

evidently varies. I, probably about six or seven seems now I'm falling asleep for that twenty minutes out only right now speak out about what kind of five thirty six clock at night, Looking around and watching pardon me interruption. I noticed that I fall asleep has been about that that before fourteen over Gallic six day. They are correct. So then, all night I always sleep Our things for our I'd say five day with a lot of afternoon naps after I type

my weird thing wild breastfeeding, while you are dragging a really you drag you, ok, oh by the way when all this is over, the bar is open and there's a special drink that we invented just for this programme. It's called the brain freeze asked for the brain. Freeze we invented it's. The drink did not exist before tonight, and it has sort of the color of your brain of rain matter. But it's really tasty does a great dream, really call Lou of milk and nails when we come back we'll be talking about the future of neuroscience. What is possible? What is separate the fact from the fiction

That's? Not radio comes before you, I'm gonna considers singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one. And where to get out of hearing there, go to patriarch arms last star, talk and sub, Where does at the five dollar level or higher to listen the star talk ad free you can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player, and never we're here another commercial on star talk ever again, you will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just saying

We are talking about a time for the brain. I gotta wait here that we have one hundred thousand miles of nerve fibers in each brain. That's extraordinary! That's a hell of a computer, but it still has issues this brain failure of some people right. What is the hope for really disentangled? What all this is and perhaps be able to fix people have problems you just going to sniff the connection or nip in tuck. Well, I mean it's a huge problem actually to solve to understand how brain works and you're talking about a hundred billion neurons with could trillion connections so to understand? The workings of the human brain is one of the greatest mysteries and we are working on that very hard, but once we understand how it works, then, just like a mechanic has to know how the car work so that, when you bring in there

broken. They know how to go about trying to fix it. So knowing the underlying structure is the beginning, but is it that reductionist not to get all philosophical on you're, because in physics you can describe each? molecule of air careening off of another one, but that description doesn't give you the bulk properties of it. You need to step back and say this air has a temperature. The individual particle doesn't have a temporary macroscopic descriptions of things that enable us to function, because you can't describe every single little thing You think the brain will be intractable in that way. So will you trying to say is that if we understand, if you met the brain, but we understand the mines or is that that's what I think are you saying so some people think that the mind or consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and there's just tap while emerges out of the workings of you. Have you have enough circuits you're gonna get him you're gonna get this thing called consciousness. There's something called the easy problem of consciousness, which isn't there

easy, but we can correlate every single thought with the actual workings of neurons in the brain and let's say we cannot pull that out and we can do it. We saw the easy problem, but they're still going to be a hard problem of. Why is it those neurons firing, there's nor chemical sloshing around cause us to have these objective experiences. They called the explanatory gap will not be able to fully explain that, but I think we have to art somewhere and just understanding. The workings of the basic Sis system is a good place to begin. I ask a really maybe dumb question: maybe not do we know that consciousness exists in the brain. I would venture to say speakers illegal. Let me just because I know that when you take out my cap, your brain, you can still function right, you could take up the left hemisphere and the right hemisphere will require, but then, if you were to cut that

Half again you only at a quarter of your brain. Would you still have purchased I've been? What point does your consciousness disappear to terminate the rubber eggs? Have you done this grey area in the lab? We asked me: what is the end on this? One does not lose your feet and creates a philosophical question. People take take little bits of the brain away. How much he take Mohammed should read. You actually need for conscious awareness, then some people, aim, that you only need the brain stem and we know that- that's not true, because if you take a full, don't you take away their cortex where they have damaged the cortex they're, not gonna, be conscious anymore. However, there are children who were born without a cortex and they just have their brains them and they have some semblance of what we might call consciousness guys what we called children of the damned.

You can joke about anencephaly joke about it. I didn't know there was an angel conversations with dogs. I can see yeah. Experience the joy of discovery, but is a dog paralyzed by self doubt action? I think I've even seen that A dog is personally aggressively disciplining owner seem to be paralyzed like I came across this line or the guy's gonna have been so. How far back? Do we go from? What is a resource? Was the grease monkey, but David only with a k, the more information Amy Fairer hours left, the booty could gluten feed. Not. I have seen how far down then there's a cap that I've spoken, albeit briefly with

I would suggest a doctor, all sides guy ok, once we have a measure of consciousness than we were able to say, does this animal? Have it does a baby had you know what one is an emergent until we have an understanding of what it is that there are certain theories of consciousness. One is when you have a system that has a certain amount of interest. It's a French hated information that it will fundamentally have consciousness. That could be a computer. It could be any kind of system and nervous system. So once we have understanding of a theory of consciousness than we can measure it and see what has it one? I think it's important to think about. If you take out quote half the brain you're, essentially dealing with duplicated structures existing correct, so there's gonna be some a symmetry between left and right, but you're dealing with half of a brain. That, then, is pretty much duplicating all the structures you remove once you start chopping up that half there's really

no more duplicated structures, you can start taking. So if there is one a mig dilemma, you can't you can't take away that make no there's nothing to take that place. So if you want to start chopping up cortex or if you know, if there is an accident, the compromises part of cortex, you have other parts of cortex that are similarly structured that can theoretically too over some of that function, once you start getting into those Limburg structures in the supplements to all that stuff, there's no more duplication! You can keep like hacking it in half its now. Think of you know calculus limit like how much can I leave and still have the Listen Janshah haven't you understood, whereas that I would have a person with a brain the sides of a penny, it's too late. Now it's really say you're thinking

having other starting up, and I was just actually thinking of your vegan. The same thing here is that you can you can take away the amygdala, which you can you can, even if they haven't used for that way to glibly wives. There are some people who may have a disease actually calcified their mental. I should they become damage and they no longer work. So you can now have emotion, you can still be conscious, you cannot have memory and you can still be conscious. There is a case in England where he only remember things for like thirty seconds so each thirty seconds he writes down, I'm just now, conscious for the very first time and then I'm just now, conscious for the very person

still having awareness. So the question is: are you can take? We always remember how much the brain is necessary to have subjected? Actually let it. How do I remember how to write about right has seen momentum? Is this barrier reef thousands of earth so there's something called procedural memory which is different than declarative memory, presenting like riding a bicycle exactly so when you learn something like metallic. Like writing. A baker Tang actually so with interesting about this case in England, is that he was a pianist once you got started playing he could play in higher and piece of music, all the way through ass, soon ass. He came out of it, Do you know where he was what he was doing whatever, but its procedural memories with a different part of the brain called the basal ganglia, which you can engage and even if you dont, have declarative memories, Matic Memories, memories about things are facts, so it looks like all your research is happening on people who have a brain disorder that some of the best

is to learn about the brain is by seeing what happens in the natural world when it doesn't work because of all sorts of legal enough deliciously zone delivering personally take what nature gives us, but that's one of the things that you know every brain lesion is different, accident is different as a tremendous amount of unpredictability when you're dealing with any of these sorts of syndromes. So you used brain mapping too. If that's the way to go to cure these horrific brain diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's, just sleep more accidents. Here I had my brace gave a couple times on camera for hilarious sized normally, so it looked to me like if you could get another order of magnitude, that is to say what is that resolution of a magnetic resonance imaging it's more like its half a millimeter gap. It looked to me like you, get another instead of half a millimeter, fifty microns

Then he really be able to figure out what was going on. This is under we're out of production. As to your point, like reduction is not just that I was wondering if it, if that was the this is the whereat is converted to reductionism. When I got my wife, my wife, but this state of affairs now is that we have this technology to be able to look at them the structure of the brain, so we can go in and measured activation of one or two visual neurons in a monkey or even in a human brain surgery, and we can look at this very micro structure and then we look at the macro structure or the act. Patient and things like MRI on which is like a veritable functional magnetic, residents imaging which is sort of looking from if our way, but we need something in between like so level, to understand how all these circuits the wired up, has just looking at where the blood flowed. There are certain area, that's what rise. Looking at is too, of course, exactly and the other ways to fines. We need something. More

Then there are certain technologies that are being developed now things like Opto Genetics, where you can actually look at the new, researching and controls. After I did a little reading on that, and so you ve got a photo receptive organisms you put in the brain or proteins yeah, and then you follow the light that they emit. Is that how that, where it sort of like the wrath of com further. I wasn t there was up here. So decent ways been waiting to be home, can broad a living person bringing doing down here. If we take these photosensitive algae, take the gene that codes for that you inserted in a virus which demonstrates that into the just before you get a photo receptive virus that you stricken someone's break alone. It is here that you take

the gene of the photo receptive algae and then you wanna transported into the brain. So you do it via a virus. That's not dangerous relating your virus through your bidding in someone's breaking yards and what happens when you put thing in his ear- and I remember, we all saw good virus, its algae, that you attach the virus. Yeah. I got this now and I hope that everybody knows is. If I got this right, the algae has border receptive proteins. Yes, there's no good way to get that protein into another living body. Unless you attach

to a virus with that's what he ate. You're gonna start replicate they're, going to start transcribing correctly, and then what happens is that now the wherever you insert this gene the now you inserted a receptor, that's gonna be sensitive to light. So now, when you shine, on it, the normal fire and so what they ve? let's say in mice, for example- is that you can shine a certain like a blue light and cause a whole circuit because its being activated doctoral. Yes, this is yet that you shine a light and it causes the neurons fire or when the neurons fires lights up it. No ok, you're caught your writing. I see where you going. You know when you shine in the light of the receptor is that are sensitive to light open, which then cause the neurons are fire, because then there is a whole. Russia's political activists,

access is introducing a sensitivity which is detectable right that the programme should make our active support. This throat injures. We want a repair people to have the old, neurological disorders, Parkinson's, but maybe you want to make people small war more, like you, said, superhuman I'd love to throw a car. I need to do

our or your people. Are they ve logged in this work, trying to have human electoral performance, so there's something called neural prosthetic for using some of it right now to treat psychiatric illness where we implants electrodes, it's called deep brain stimulation to help treat psychiatric patients, but for you can implant electorates to help people, for example, who are deaf to hear or tell blind people. See and that technology is in pilot studies. Now, I'm in a field of narrow engineering expressly combining and eventually yes, we can do things like enhanced memory enhance attention by using these notional. I gotta get redbook similar, ok, so your brain, as far as I can tell this chemistry and electricity, your manipulating chemistry, the brain or the electrical circuitry, the brain with magnetic fields or whatever else, if that's it I know my computer uses electrical circuits. So is there a future where we're going to attach your brain to a computer,

I don't see. Why not I mean we already and we already have an old question about magnetism and brains our animals. Apparently that find direct on their own using some sort of ferris some iron bearing thing in their cells in their brains, but we never got that hard to find north the fact that MRI machines work indicates that there are magnetic proper. I mean, there's all sorts of properties, toll of our body, so there's smaller lesser magnetic qualities to our body, but no we can navigate by them. Maybe you can because it s the other animals got all kinds of stuff. We don't have new, can regenerate limbs, we can't Regos can fly. We can I mean just going down the list. Will it get to that say where our brains really will be like a computer when we can hook it up to a computer, be able to speak languages without actually learning them, we will be able to download information as my nerves,

there's no way. I think that the AIDS there's probably yes, though, right eventually will there's computers. They could translate it like. Google, learning a language very, very complicated me just to use that as an example. We're not translation machine. So in theory I could you're a world where, if I had a catalogue dictionary, I could be hooked up to something that would allow me to be a translation machine, but this all these of language and interaction in the way we communicate and answer questions and have experiences through language? Its? dont, complicated that you could plug into a computer, but you can only maybe Rita Menu in another country issue. I will grant you that, yes, I know what the hell I'm getting Wanna be a paragraph that decides eggs and something in your own. Does everyone is a mushroom person? You wouldn't understand another language, but you could technically translated hooked up. I'm I'm a traveller messing about the future. I put gonna believe

the thing is that when you two on those pig pills- and it shows you where you haven't brushed, how does that we are actually my I'm here who would have thought some years ago that a computer would ever better human in chess? Who would have thought that a computer would ever be the in jeopardy, so computers are moving pretty fast here. So why wouldn't the context of language be just another thing? It learns, rather than just a translator dictionary why we put limits on the computers that have transmitted limits we ve ever given for them in the past that you want to look at, with already smarter than us they can do math quicker than ass. They can do calculations that can translate languages. There are much better in terms of holding a lot of information, and then why would we want to incorporate that Her brain right now we have rifle in Sweden, have to remember numbers anymore computers do that for us. So then one of the question is what are human still good? In fact, the idea that you'd put chips in your head to know things. This is not a chip in my head, but it's an arms around it.

There will be little get smaller minds more. You can implant the Iphone in your brain and you can talk to it and it will give you information so that already talkative iphones right here there's an engineer. I want to remind you that computers not just come out of the sky. Somebody designs, Who's that I believe it when I see it, then, as far as communication language, I can easily envision, I guess, upon intended a command I can recognize faces and emotions on faces, and then that would enhance the translation of a language, certainly that I don't think that's an extraordinary step, but there's a famous impossible sentence for computers, were you say time lies like an arrow.

Fruit flies like a banana wiser possible because the two senses their grammatically identical. Yet they have completely different meanings. Why couldn't a computer learned it the way you day time, meaning of the words? how'd they were perceived. So what we don't know is whether the computer then has to have a human life expert consciousness. That is good. I say the real thing is: will it eventually have consciousness or experience or subjective states? What is it like to be in it ever aware, and well now acknowledge, gets really ordering test everybody. I hope I sent the turing test with Russia, You ve been listening to start. Talks live at the Brooklyn Academy of Music recorded on February twenty fourth, two thousand fourteen

with Eugene Merman, Michael in Black Heather, Berlin, Paul read my Bialik and my good friend. Till night science, I'm your hopes to me, or the grass tat will have more to show next until then keep looking We should listen to startalk, commercial, free, joint start, compatriots for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patriarch dot com slap star, talk, radio,