Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, commercial, free welcome to start on your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide. Dartle begin right now to start or radio on your host, Neil, the grass Thyssen, I'm an astrophysicist at them, Can museum of natural history where also sir, is the director of the Hayden planetarium. My co host this week is Eugene Merman hello, Eugene alone. Haven't you here, I love being here Neil! Thank you. Sometimes I go into your place where you have your Eugene murmuring, comedy, festival, exact and sometimes you comin studio with I do sometimes I will travel uptown good to get you out

your digs down there? You know this we show topic is all about sought. I now so, could you rather nuts while yet the listeners dont know, I was informed before actually talking about salt, that's the white stuff that we all take for granted and I don't take it for granted. I think it's amazing change lives. That was a currency at one point problem. Where are we going to get into that? This whole show will orbit the subject of salt great and, of course, is real, cheap. Now I remember when I was a kid going to distort sought was like the cheapest. Thing on all shells: you get a button, that's an old! I am you get a toolbox us all for ten cents and I thought the canopy ever again out ten cents, what an and it still she even more than that today. Romans would be furious to hear this. I like that seems reasonable, and you know in the past yet with rare and valuable commodity, a strategic commodity yet and use it as a weapon, maybe not the money, the one thing

Fourteen thousand use is not one of them was that you can put on the wounds of who's the guy in the movie. If someone who I don't know what I mean, I know the Chuck Norris set, nor is it if you put it on drug, nor is it went on to help him. Doesn't it sort of clean? Does it have legal cleaning power yeah? What's it's it's it's a disinfectant, not a it's an antibiotic and prevents the growth of microbes on Google. All about the editor ruin the whole thing just that were on the same page, the salt that we normally think of in chat about his table. Salt is sodium chloride. Sodium is an element on the piano table. They remember the mysterious chart of boxes in your camera. Scale at chlorine is all They are you put it together, sodium chloride by the way sodium is highly explosive, yeah it in and reactive, in the presence of water and Korean. Each of these will kill you separately really and together at some of the most they distillation. It's that it will give you put sodium in water. It was essential,

you want to get out of the room when you do that, because it reacts violently with the warder Iraq that no and listening is off doing that it's hard to get a slap bestow, sodium front certainties, creative, breakin, somewhere Donald. I dont I've, never look I'd I'd. I dont know him. Chlorine is stuff to keep suit your ear. You know swimming pools clean and it's it's quite the disinfectant. You put it together, its tables and it's a testament to the extra ordinary diversity of what the elements and the periodic table do for us when brought together as as molecules, Yemen Militia, chemistry is a whole different thing from atomic chemistry, It's a whole other world, and I doubt it now. You're probably right notes the same world but different different at admiral. Different rules and I happen to know as an astrophysicist. You make everyone These elements in stars, therefore in the centres of high mass stars that later explode spreading their enriched guts across the galaxy out

which you then make planets, and people and salt, just in case you were wondering, I was going to say, is that is the stables all deferment exploding star and yes, good to the ingredients of table. Salt come from exploding, Stifler recipes, don't say one quarter, spoon exploding star, so what we got here, you notes so what's funny about salt- is that its you know you gotta farms. Out of you, been on a farm if your city person, but like getting their sought, links and when I was a kid I said, do who'd want to do that. You know, and so these these huge herbivores that we sustain on farms. They they didn't. They AIDS, all they got a lick sought as part of their daily diet and I said you know the sort this topic too big for just me and What I decided to do was bring in an expert

to my office Mark Kerr Lansky is the author of the book called sought a world history, and I want to be confused with that. Movie is Angelina Jolie, where she is not as well. This check out that clip of my first clip of my interview with him just to find out what what role sought is played in human history. Sure it's hard for anyone to day to imagine that was so highly valued as it once was. What happened we throw away sought today? Salt is twenty five cents in the store. Well to begin with. South didn't have a great deal of value, because

Most civilization started off. Being Hunter, gatherer is not agricultural and hunter gatherers. Don't really need soft on the basis of the importance of salt is that we all need sodium chloride for bodies to function, but if you're on a mostly red meat tie it you will get all of the salt you need without having any additional south. But then what happened is that civilizations moved to agriculture now, there's a whole bunch of problems are solved is needed for caring for those properties in the soil, its needs to raise livestock because other mammals, just like us, need sodium chloride and before the age of refrigeration and freezing, you really couldn't have a food trade without salt, in our view, are a dairy farmer and you produce milk and butter and thanks You could sell them to the immediate area, not too good, either

they're in the summer time. But if you made cheese which is preserved with saw you throw it on the wagon and ship it all over the world. The same is true of meat and fish and vegetables, and basically the entire food trade depended unsolved and in pre industrial society that was a very large part. Of trade. So is not an exaggeration to say that without salt you couldn't have an international economy. What you're saying is back then, food you ate from afar was sought yeah, or in food or anything that was shipped any kind of distance was salty of people used to eat a lot more salted food than they do now, and it was much saltier bacon, for example, the bacon we now I sort of salted and a token sort of way, because his cap, in the refrigerator. But if you're gonna saw bacon so that it can survive without being shelled, it has to be much saltier than that. So salt was a preserve. It

assault. Was the leading way to preserve food. There were some other things, such as smoking. Smoking doesn't work that well, unless you use a little salt also and there is bearing in the ground which also needs a little salt. So, most anything you try to do to preserve food and So you do barrier. But in the ground I do I do with that. Guy sounds like assault this. I believe that is important, but it's like a little suspicious and their other salt as much of sodium chloride. There's like saw Peter, may ingredient in gunpowder and other explosives bay. So did I was hoping that thought could be a weapon sodium, bicarbonate, Emily goes on and on and on what we gotta in this first second and we're coming back and when we come back, I have a special guest, some cultures.

Welcome back to start vermin, do you you tweet, or that you dreamer, and how do you dream I might have been beaten by just that? It would be just as you dream too bad listing. So just today's salt, who would have thought that sort be so important in the history of the world, and I could not do this alone and not that Love you Eugene Beth, but had to bring in some more ammo here thirdly, because I am assaulted com all of them. Like a museum of natural history, where we have an entire department of Anthropology and gets. Why found I found Peter Whiteley Peter welcome to STAR talk. Radio thanks much greater because you you're an anthropologist with specializing in north, Hurricane Native Native

North Americans, yellowish, especially their hope, be in Zuni and other problems in the southwest, because I brought you when we get sought is not just some you put in your diets sought was this if to teach a commodity for people who, just go to the grocery store and pick it up. Absolutely well in the south western pueblos, it was very much of a commodity that people traded back and forth, and that goes back three or four thousand years, so in particular places where they find it like us. Salt Lake or the Manzano say lines east of the Sandia mountains? They found examples of vote that salt. Three or four hundred miles away and the archaeological record hundreds of miles so that they would go get it Absolutely and for example, HOPI, Sir still have assault pilgrimage that they go on to the bottle as

thousand a day to this day yesterday, one of us will tell them about costs have very recently they used to go to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and they still go to Zuni SALT Lake to get insult. Oh, so that's right because, with those of your opinion, the algae. Now you might ass well, where does saw come from where the place where one way is salt, water right, you got it Atwater either a huge lake that have become salty over the years or ocean and all you need is to corral off a piece of it and let the sun so the realities of the ocean, oh I see what you say: you you let the you'd let a tie bring in some water and it comes out what you trap, some of the water ass. It comes in and some lakes or large enough that they became salty over the years- the SALT Lake for that's a pic hanging. Ruth area. The a big regulated so their waste. Actually,

make it and, in my interview with more collapse, getting that word sliding into the shop he some stories about how you find salt patent, how make it and where you get it from so check it out. The cheapest and most efficient way to make solved if you live in a sunny climate. Just take sea water, a damn it off into pounds and let it they're in the sun and eventually all the water will evaporate. It may take a year, but you have a lot of different holdings. Switch rotate. So there's always one that's at crystallization This is a very efficient, very old way of making solve that hasn't changed in thousands of years and require very little investment and attracts beautiful birds, in all salt ass. He saw no. Although the majority of table salt is, he saw, which is something Americans don't understand, because in America it's not Americans

mostly rock south, is only a few places left that produce safe sought in the. U S that wasn't always true that, for one reason or another, most of the sea saw places have gone out of business, and I don't know the difference between rock solvency. Salt how'd, you just make rocks all don't Unita. He wanted to make rocks all know, you need a place under that has solved and a shovel, so you mind this. Yes, yes, There's two ways of doing it: salt deposits that are under the earth you can either go down there, and mine it like you at any other mineral or you can flood it and pump the water out which will come out his bride and then evaporate the brine, like who had seesawed? Ok. So what you're saying geologically is that the minimal sought was once salty wanted. Where the water it evaporated unless the salt behind most likely. These are all places that were ocean at one time and there is huge deposits.

In North America and Europe and Asia. There's salt under most of the great lakes area going all the way from the planes to update New York, remind me of the gridlock, salty or not at what point or you big enough to become salty while bigger than the great lakes. I think at the point at which year an ocean This is something that has ever been completely worked out about. Why Caesar salty, too little bit mysterious, but the great lakes, although there are salt beds under the earth, all around the great the great lakes of freshwater, so pure white I got you in the show, from the Americans Zimmer natural history, your ear hope Indians would so they wouldn't creates. By drawing up salt water. You telling me they actually salt in the mountains. Well,

at the bottom of the Grand Canyon and then of the SALT Lake that Sir, not too far away from Zuni problem about fifty miles over grace, all like Anita, no, not that one that says even further lay slightly too This is this is a junior version of that did. It was also called salt Lake. Schools Zuni SALT Lake, ok lungs. They had an embarrassing urban story to tell you I was flying to California and replying Were you talk, but I wasn't thinking that at the time are just looking out the window and so this huge white area certain myself. Well that looks like a salt residue like from of lake that might have been there. That looks like us. It was course with us, except. I deduce from first principles of Saudi, it's that puts the grants, but I was obviously that I mean at once. I thought about it, but I would then I was pump in my mind, geological knowledge into. Is that how you ve, lower that granted

like this is a very very big hand, almost Grand canyon at short notice, so so other great. Deposit. So we have obviously great salt can you time you have your Europe SALT Lake to version, and, of course, the dead Sea and Israel, but what you ve been set up in odd? Yes, but you can sit in it. Will you so salty said in it. They have you tried walking, on its eye, mildly. We it's weird, I can walk. I wanted. Spook people will have their movement, you don't fool people into thinking. My mandate you're someone other than I can walk on it, but I but its purely scientific. You chose not to do so gets me is that, of course, it's called the dead seek, as there are no fishes in it. But that's a measure of the fact that didn't have microscope because up their microbes everywhere reverie have liquid water in the world so It's a scientific limitation that a guy called the dead Sea and also, of course, you are the intelligent near Detroit

four hundred million years ago, there is in Heaven. At the time was warm. There's a shallow c, and when the water dried up, it left when the worthless is solved deposits and so mining continues to this day in the image Roy India, the drawing near to strike. Yet, Let's go down more than a thousand feet below the surface, just to get the soft I mean this is the ordinary, to the extent that people go to to recover this stuff, so so so, your hopi tribes, so they they would get the sort they knew they needed assault Yanks. Equally and they were dead, they work went off on long expeditions, sir, which will really bring ritual pilgrimages, a sound and especially to word to those two places. I have mentioned they have to go through all sorts of ritual preparations and its associated with an initiation and so on.

It's a very arduous tracked down to the bottom. The grand commitment somebody had to somebody had to go, therefore, to begin with and find it right, and then they passed the infirmary. Are you saying it's basically like a salt bar mitzvah and if you to think of it. That way, I would like a going to tell people that's what you said that your next gift at the bottom of the eggs, actually their mother and other meeting dollars, packets, assault, exam The information that you are referring to was widely known and shared among prehistoric peoples in the greater South West, and they all knew where those places were and they were sacrificed to their their salt deities associated with those places goddesses godson, to sacrifices, to make it a day Where is my first time? I've heard that word is the first time I've heard it sacrilegious not going to be invented it. I can hear it later when I thought about what you just said. He might have been just invented this fine, so my list years long about all these cultures going back thousands of years.

Chinese and six thousand b c when harvest dry beds, oil, salty laddie, pronounces late, Newton, Yuki Chan, I like you're asking me no Neil close the sands wine than trying to me and the Egyptians, the Phoenicians, the Romans that counts, reminding rock salt in the Austrian out. As far back as seven hundred BC, minuscule just goes on and alone Peter guides global what gets me is how people know that they need the salt. Why did You know they need the salt, but the people who again scurvy for not having vitamin c didn't know they needed vitamin c. They eventually found out Indeed its trial and error, everyone dying, and then it's like. I would you get themselves so we got a wind down the saying that, but when we come back, let's learn more about where call come in which effect is on the history of cultures in the world? It's it's you

go influence. Who knows no bounds? I'm here with refugee murmured, like one of my apologies, Temerity Museum, is we'll be right, have terrible secret for you. I'm gonna consider singing all of the ads on this shell there's just one and, where to get out of hearing there, go to patriarch arms last star, talk and support. Where does at the five dollar level or higher to listen the star talk ad free you can download all current episodes into your favorite, podcast player and never we're here another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just saying

Welcome back to Startalk radio Riley Degrasse Tyson host, you know what you can find startalk on the web and startalk radio net. Not only that you can download us as a Itunes podcast, we in the twitter verse what other handle, but, of course, at STAR talk, radio close. This we Eugene Merlin Eugene good to have you back and studio, and you know we're orbiting the show on the subject of salt. Yes, an interview that I conduct with mark occur Lansky author of salt, a world history. And we got into discussing that's that's a book about everything about sought stuff, you never thought existed. What was true about so about saw the secret Besides secrets of zone working title of that book, but Minos so now he now discuss some surprise and cultural beliefs having sought, let's check it out.

I have spent a lot of time working in Haiti, so I already knew that salt was used cure his, which might be secured zombies or kill. Zombies noted here zombies, yet because salt takes away evil, Ok, so, in a ritualistic way, salt has you can. If somebody has been zombie a five, you can bring them back to normal with salt, and how do you apply this all sprinkling autumn with the sole shaker? I'm not sure I have to say I haven't but there is this association with salt preventing evil and curing evil, because it stops rotting. So in japanese speedier the stage is sprinkle with salt to chase away bad spirits, and there are a lot of examples of salt use for that solved. In many cultures is brought to an home for good luck with the salt over the show. The problem lives spilling sought is a middle.

Something comes up a lot and Judaism and in ISAF, and that is related to the ability of salt to preserve things, so it seals a bargain. So, for instance, in Judaism, salt is a symbol of ceiling was called the covenant they agreement between God and Jews. So if you spill salt, it's like the covenant has been broken, and so you have to do something about that. Get rid of it check it over your shoulder. If you look closely in the painting of the last supper, you will see that there is a spilled salt seller on the table by Judas. I never knew that tables can also two interesting details. Eugene did in other salt table, I know that the lad I ever I didn't know that you could cure zombies with salt. And I wonder how its ever been tried. Let practically woe plots, I mean, but it's good too

oh because of all the apocalypse as the asteroid, you know we can reflect an asteroid virus. We can find a cure, but the zombie apocalypse that was going to be an unbeatable one felt basalt. Is it tat I was, let me finally say argues resolved. There was really hoping that somebody would think that sought to get you pregnant can have everything. We haven't studio, one of us, but a special guess, Peter widely he's a curator of ethnology. I think, as the official title there, at the American Museum of Natural histories across department colleague of mine, actually thanks for coming and he's an expert on account of the culture of the HOPI tribes and other sort of south West native american cultures and yawned and youth, and patently salt was a big deal to them. Absolutely ass, a big since they have they would go so far to get it into a big it had. It has achieved a great deal of importance in their culture. There is more than just the nutritional value of the stuff. Exactly so becomes

Bali valued and there are deity's who are named after salt. There, there's so goddesses insult godsons as others. The Some sort- they got a thing I heard about that one. How far would they walked? Did you say fifty miles or more fifty miles and more the to the distance. The grand Canyon from the HOPI Maces is about a hundred miles. So why not just move there? I mean in the lead, organs were known to be nomadic well ways. That's right up there. Isn't there a silent moved toward the sort was excuse me, that's that's it. That's a good plan thereof. There are, of course, native peoples who live at the bottom of the Grand Canyon like they have soup, I, and in the past, like. I was just so obvious that what an inconvenient for everybody says: let me like the walk lose their. Then you get rid of this being a spiritual, meaning, wholeness! That's why we don't live

the business world we want or would have, no meaning. I guess the pilgrimage group gives its meaning exactly there. You go. We ask that this goes way back. I mean it was a commodity for while was it also commodity among the native American? Try absolutely so even today, you'll find Zuni who brings Zuni salt to HOPI and they will exchange for the same measure of ground. Blue cornmeal goes back a long long way again and legislate. Symbolic thing what they're doing? Well, it's it's a new nutritional thing too, but it it represents the contributions that each have to each other's arriving or haven't found. Cassio do remain What about figures? This is more like a spur, spirituous liquors, a recognition of each other's value. More than his leg. We need blue corn meal The only way we can well that that's right and as a special celebration of this particular kind of self showpiece, call it by particular term bar, which means literally water salt, and that's it that's something they ve.

Are you more highly than what you get from Kafka reared? You look back. If you look back, a chinese emperors, had assault monopoly and and and the venetian government controlled the price and export of soft fruits ports through the through the lagoon and the Erika. I would call the ditch: that's all built cause was financed by attacks on saw. It is amazing to go down this list and and and and the Roman salted, their vegetables, and hence the word salad, salad, for salt and and and and and salary comes from the word salt you now. Every word sounds like it's like an illuminati conspiracy that didn't go everywhere in history. Sound was their major with vision, their voting for the president's out when we come back more of my interview with marker landscape, the author of salt and my in the studio.

To start like hoboes special studio, Guest Peter widely he's a curator of knowledge is America Museum in natural history and today's, because salt sought as as a cultural GEO political force and I've slotted in here, an interview that I had in my office with marker Lansky and he wrote the book salt of world history. And he told me how saw contributed to the science of geology, which I have thought about it in retrospect. Clearly that would be the case if you care, where you're salt is, you can learn about what earth did to get it there and what you have done do to get it from the earth and also what role salt? What what what role geology played. Devaluing salt itself, so the Czech another clip out from that interview with marker Lansky The whole science of geology grew up. I'm salt

an especial studio guest Peter rightly he's a curator of acknowledging that the American Museum and natural history and today's topic assault sought as it as a cultural GEO, political force and I've slotted. In hearing interview that I had in my office with marker Lansky and he wrote the book salt of world history and eat Tommy have solved contributed to the science of geology, which I have fought about it in retrospect. Clearly that would be the patient ship between solved an oil. The reason for this relationship is that very solid deposits of salt, which called solved domes, are impenetrable, so organic material that pushes up again saw won't, go any further and obey trap there, and that's how I was made when this was discovered originally in Pennsylvania and then in Texas. The size of geology became about

looking for salt so that you could find oil and went back to all of these places in the Middle EAST, where salt domes had been discovered and found. A oil today geology is very much focused on finding oil, but that only values. The oil, doesn't devalue the sought. Well, it did devalue the solve because its stepped up the search for salt, and it was discovered that was just much much more salt in the earth than anybody had ever imagined. Just these huge huge deposits mean from Ireland, across Northern England, into Scandinavia from Eastern France.

The cross, Germany and Austria into Poland. You narrow from Detroit to Syracuse just huge so that for one thing lessen the value of sought, but at the same time refrigeration and freezing were being developed, which is actually my next book, I'm working on a book, a biography of Clarence Bird's Eye Clarence version ruined the Sultan treaty by developing commercial freezing, so Peter, does that these native american tribes today part of the salt national, but also to do was. It was also to preserve Over the winter months, and but there are there, is to preserve today and in Europe. You study the relatively recent history of these tribes. Why they doing it, the old fashioned way just put in Congo and given the refrigerator whether they like the way it tastes like them, that particular kind of Salvador

talking about, but of course they have many other methods of preserving meat and fish, and so, in the past, as well as in the present, so you get get dm, eaten smoke it or dry it Clams and salmon and halibut honour on the North West Coast, they spent many hours drawing these in smoke. Houses and so forth, specific specially for that purpose, I have emerged from the Pacific. Who ass, the others a whole culture of the dried to drive me and take great and is very handsome and very high collar. Actually, and so you don't need much of it too, to keep you go and through the day so vague. But what I find interesting is just how salt had all these secondary effects on the rest of the conduct of cultures and that's extraordinary and and is what I want, I wonder, though, is did, has sought been devalued. Indy

in the native american community because of its the full access. Are those data are still operating in the culture of the data? You spoke of an innovative segment salt domes in Europe unless they're all over France and Ireland, and those like like that. Like that the military map of Napoleon and other salt and then also in Detroit, I'm glad they have something. Even if it's all Napoleon's last stand right. I think that traditionally oriented people still pay attention to those things and again they do value the native salt more than the commercial, so very much so input into the present is it? Is it actually a better quality? I think, It's better and hope you talk about it as a bus quota, much more flavorful, much much sweeter than the commercial salt. It sounds like you speak, hoping you'll have to get back to that after the second

little bit our good will and you still cling on. Don't you russian look very well. We cut back on STAR talk, radio more on the topic of salt welcome back to Startalk Radio on Neil Degrasse Tyson up here in the studio with Eugene Mirman and a special guest and f better ethnography. Did I give them right? Yes, yes, Peter widely at the American Museum of Natural history, specializing in South West native Mary So the southwest the relatively recent history that they have and this topic is salt and what role is played in cultures and how they treat each other and having how they ve developed,

and we also have clips from an interview that we have the last of several clips of my interview with Mark Kurlansky, the author of salt, a world history. When we start off with a clip where he talks about, thought not simply as being important for your survival, but it was so important for survival that, in fact, it became some people married? It became a strategic commodity. Let's check it out Tell me the history of war and salt is that a book unto itself in many ways, actually, because salt was also used to crowd wounds or an army that didn't have sought was in trouble, but you get example is likely Union Army in the civil war? The union army had a strategy of preventing the south from getting salt. They couldn't get northern solved because, there was an embargo and wherever the

found a salt or, if they destroy them, sometimes they went back repeatedly and destroy them so that the south was in Jasper a shortage of salt during the entire civil war. Which I created a food shortage in winter time. So the control of salt became a major military tactic. Yes, and salt has often been regarded as strategic in british government policy. Tells you something about the british government. They were always more concerned with salt as a strategic, commodity than they were with it as a commercial commodity. Queen Elizabeth, the first warned the english people of their dangerous dependency. I quote dangerous dependency on Phronsie South, so soft of yesterday is oil of today. That's right, you know when you look at salt and oil, there's a greatly There is actually one of the secret reasons why I wrote the book, but what you think is

valuable and what you're willing to fight and die for. Is it really valuable value? It is an illusion and ships of the time, and I am absolutely certain that some day oil will be worth about what scientists worth today some wishful thinking there if possible, that doesn't mean at the time you should go to tons of wars over oil and salt. I like I'd, forgotten that, yes, you can. You sought a quarter eyes, wounds and worse Rambo did that. I still do it. If I get anyone nine fight, I go right gives themselves, nor was it Rambo nano. He actually took the gunpowder out of bullet united it in the wound. In aside to organise the wound sat was there was the manly did he did. I wouldn't do that. Oh just put salt on it, I'm not a lunatic. So this goes way back for them for military, the roman army was sometimes paid and salt and the origin are and the world south of the word salary result hurry, salad, salads, all of it all yeah and an exactly

the very salty leading and, of course the expression is he works- is worth is weighed in salt right. And which are because, when I first learned of salt, I heard that it like gave you high blood pressure and killed. Someone said is the salt of the earth. It's like who'd. You must not pack for persons I came way out of out of sync with when, when all of this was the oldest vocabulary was established. And of course, one of one of the major causes of several, of course, but one of the major causes The french revolution was the salt tax. We never talk about that. Could we can know picture it, can't even think about it. We can picture it. Did you know that Finch prisons were full of people convicted of solid smuggling salt smuggling of trying to avoid being assault. Taxes yeah, I mean internet today also tea was also very important. I mean I, I guess I think The reasonable vote was, though, and one of the first thing they did at the end of the revolution- wants to spend the salt tax and, of course, famously portrayed.

The film Gandhi, but would not actually did was one of steps to fight for India's independence from Britain was the need and it was concerned about it, policies concerning salt and then the heat. But then marched to the sea where he made salt without the oversight of the british, and there was viewed as monster that this is a strong act of defiance, and here we look at it say what you do is make unsought. Would you care British it's like Mozilla. Let him have resolved whoever consult controls. The salt controls the world as a movie, I'm going to be working on so Peter we're running short on time. Any any concluding comments you have about this whole business. Well, I think that to that concept to stop being a strategic resources is very widely present. I am thinking, for example, of some societies in Papua New Guinea with

a specialised salt, produces insult makers, they have in a veil, be we'll have a high role and in the local hierarchy, and they get to be responsible for trading salt in a very controlled fashioned among different groups of neighbouring. Tribes, so it's it's still going on. It's still there absolutely yet still there and and and like as it would be interesting if Well, one day became the salt of the pass. Yes, and I can't wait for a new thing to rip They said that we go to war over. I just hope I get to control when we got a rat this first hour of STAR talk is a lot more to discover in part two of our show, the science of salt and, in that second, our that's when we get into the health considerations of salt? and what it means to us physiological. You ve been listening to start talk, radio, Eugene thank for being in this first hour and Peter widely thanks for joining us. In this first hour of STAR talk, radio Start talk is brought to you in part,

by a grant from the National Science Foundation. As old I'm, to tell you the next looking I wish you'd. Listen, the star talk, commercial, free, joint start, talking Patria for as little as five dollars per month and the ads will disappear. Learn more at patriarch dot com slap star, talk, radio,