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Tough Love and Geopolitics, with Susan Rice

2019-12-13 | 🔗

Neil deGrasse Tyson explores geopolitics with Ambassador Susan Rice, PhD, co-host Chuck Nice, neuroscientist Heather Berlin, PhD, and cybersecurity expert Stephen Garcia. (WARNING: strong language, discussions of suicide and mental health, other adult topics.)

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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
Skip the commercials support star talk on patriarch to listen to every episode, commercial free. From the American Museum of Natural history in New York, city and beaming across all is based and start science. This is a start, I mean the rest ice in your personal astrophysicist and I got with me my coat jackknife Jack anyhow. Treating a czech nice comic affect you, sir. Yes, I followed you do I follow you too,
ends of the earth. You only founded on Twitter earth, following using the gates of hell. You're telling me like this. Has no ends its a continuous surface case. You haven't noticed so? I have followed this programme, this particular so we're gonna talk about the roots of mental toughness as they resided inside former national security advisor to the President of the United States, Susan Rice, and since we're talking about mental toughness, Yes, we need we need our are when you know Iverson. I also ask the person whose mental I believe a monumental I gotta go. I haven't really Heather welcome your Europe go to mental powers. I am happy to see the mental person of this group. Great you're, one of our featured people on starts, work all stars. It is great to have you in the start off Emily.
Data because noise, we don't, but not a pain always reaching for you for this, but just always go daddy just a little bit of background Susan Rice. She came out with a book called tough love. Shoes. National security adviser to President Obama has a thirteen thousand seven Are you an ambassador worked, so the United States has, That's to the U N, as distinct from ambassadors, to other countries of the world right now and choose a road scholar and so actuated. New College Oxford and she's author, the memoir tough love, my story of the things worth fighting for interesting, so she's, she's she's got the pedigree. She got the attitude she's got the. That you know she's ready. That is when the rocks shakes shaped, shake that up, and so she credits some of what she's accomplished. I would say a lot of what she's accomplice to how she was raised with.
Love tough, let's check out their first clip tough love. This kind of title, like we say, of our grandparents, so I do not agree No ok waking up their name in a book like what the grip could grant. That's a previous generations. Are you dog in my time, on a blue. It come on their bit, but do you know why everybody I know knows what tough love me resume. Young people know even young people hell, you ok Certainly, my young people Esteve Chicken, whereas now no, no, the young Vienna the young people who work with me know what it means, because last time I saw their a bringing they get a trophy for participating in tough, I've got a mile zone, that's the point so me. It means loving, fiercely but not uncritically, and
yeah. When you mess up the people, love you supposed to tell you straight up to the year. Stuff is not together, I think that's the polite time and their many families where there are always bolstering each other's efforts, even if it has failed. And you're, saying if someone is now you get on it, you tell him how and why, because with the aim of helping them, do better do Baptist beaten era right rang like right right, but I'm just contrasting with the fear of telling being truthful with someone, because you might hurt them feelings your weight. That was now familiar concept. In my view, that is so apparent raise me and my brother very much in the vein of tough love in my for better where's, my kids inherited decide whether they seem to be doing ok, ok, how old ladder downward to one senior in college and one's a junior high? Ok, so that you do not hear
before. So that's what he said, definition too tough love. I mean, I think, it's a unique definition, What we normally think of, at least in the field of psychiatry, is tough love is you know, somebody is kind of really out of control or there, let's say a drug addict, and it's about me literally control like out of control their own word here and it's about then coming in with harsh enforcement of restrictions, so you know what she said that she had well, I mean she is more their different types of parenting, so there three different types. Apparently one is authority. Authoritative one is authoritarian, and the other is permissive right. So she's more does what I think she's describing is authoritative, guaranteeing, which is that your demanding you have high expectations, rules, lots of structure, lots of structure but you're also responsive, unlike connected emotionally, whereas authorities-
and that's it and there's no, you know it s over pure think, so so so, but so so her way which does not afford not authoritarian ranch, aerial right leg like to tell our territory to yes. Why should we assume that would work for everyone? We would not just fall flat for some people trying to grow a boom in sea. That's where at when you said how do you feel about her, and I said I was a, but my response was going to be. Its brought a reason why thickets fraud is because children are individuals who respond differently different stimuli. Us I'm ask another right right, there's setting sail that show yeah. So basically, it's all about the combination of the personality type of the child with the type parenting. So there's, no one right wait
and every type of parenting there's articles are tailored, it's really good or it's really bad and really the key factor is how it enter relates with the poorest. Reality and this assembly with learning like, for example, some people need really restrictive. Is to learn like being tested all the time and having structure, and they work really well met system, others, don't they it a more sort of permissive environment where they can learn on their own, so that vainly right here is there was one way everybody I raise rain either it's for you or a dozen. Why and so on. Some cases dependent also call their cultural differences as well. So but you know, depending on the cold, what that is its own go programme. For example, Did your culture does not? fly and might not want to go on but like, for example, authoritarian or likes it
Very, very restrictive. Parenting works better in asian cultures, because that's part of the culture they find that that type of parenting, whereas in the U S, for example, they get worse results with that kind of pair, same because its links with the culture yeah exactly so you have to be careful when your imposing other sort of cultural standards that work in one place or here in my. However, you know sometimes it's when you look at cultural, I will just say this and people be maybe I'll just edited out. Yet I want to say this is a problem we heard by the more. What is perceived to be permissive in many cultures are the way caucasian parents white people, actually let their children do pretty much anything. But I see that there are some benefits to that, where the child feels emboldened to try things and be more adventurous, so
There's so the permissive type of parenting as its own advantages, so it does encourage independence. The ideas that you should create an environment where the child can make their own decisions and that they'll be more prepared for life, but on those kinds of parenting you get you get more. People tend to be more impulsive, yet At the end of the day, they are better when it comes to sort of making their own decisions, and- and so you, every as it had every type of parenting, has pluses and my Yes, we want kids born. There should be some who, out on what kind of a bringing they that that
genetic eventually, we ve, eventually, ok, this one needs you gonna be beating here is that we like you, could hardly tell you another, MR backsides, in real time, and I am looking at whether we are really good example, though, is this a film called three identical strangers and when these Tripoli documented documentary and they were separated at birth- and it was an experiment that was obviously, this should never be done, but they they did this, where they an experiment where none of the parents, new none of the pants or the children, knew what was happening said. The same exact dna, but they put them in three different houses with different socio economic status is different types of parenting. Legal. This was not legal now, and this is not a good friend of some people do not anymore you. I said a Paypal is like the moon pheromones.
It was give you a nuclear bomb. Actually exactly. What was it, saying and what are you a hundred years- Socio economic, IRAN and overthrow yeah, but they also a different types of parenting, and I think it was like the law. Whereas yes or no more permissive as many of us, a socio economic status had the highest one, I think was very distant, cold and restrictive, and I believe that, unfortunately, that child ended up committing suicide. Yeah yeah, I'm. So, basically, what I'll tell you why his White Red Fox at first will be a hooker where little bits of river celebrate what went ass. How come black people have such a lower suicide rate than white people
particularly so german added basement wind of my men, those red work means sixty nine or something basement with a kind of joy. Your hundred, but I'm line, we got you broke it, so she also credits her ability to tackle difficult situations to playing sports. Oh there's a whole social thing that goes on in sports is not just the contest itself, but the interpersonal, dimension of Let's find out what she says about this. I was very much a tomboy going up and I was really and sports and
my idea of fun as scrappy kid was blinked in football with boys, our basketball on the neighbourhood court, but at that evolved into playing varsity basketball, as well as foreseen tennis, a little bit of soft law in high school, and I was a much better chance play an end. I am a much better chance player than I ever was a basketball player. There's there are a lot of myths. They are about me. The only good one is that I was really excellent basketball player, so people want to believe you were good. A basque people have circulated a myth that I was a great basketball player, but I backed natural in France it was in fact I was a mediocre basketball player and a pretty good tennis player and still play tat sort.
Do for other than that, you taught me. It taught me how to really compete and to lose, but also to win and want to win and to lead a team, and I spent a lot of time describing the role of that. I had his national security adviser as being akin to playing point guard on basketball team, because one that was my position to when I was playing school and later in graduate school, like captain, usually apply guard, not necessarily think about necessary, wondering I mean, but on the court, that's in fact often the role that Explain because their seeing the whole court they're calling the plays their dishing the ball for the most, to the pudding, abortion and and making sure that that day,
the stars who usually those within the great outside shattered once under the basket her put new opportunity. Now, then, you get your ear beers extraordinary point guard to do all of the above. I was not one of those, so it was really a. Its growth experienced, putting both Tennyson Basketball- isn't, I wonder, are is: is the personality type that we see among some athletes? Is that developed by them being athletes, or was it always there, and now it attaches to the fact that the They have great athletic performance. It's like what came first, the chicken and egg. I think certain types of people are the isn't it a husband, Sir, thank God that other guy, without charges do just laid by a bird that was not a chicken
got? It ok communication and then what comes out of the egg is what you would call a chicken right right restriction. Gotta is so costly to me. It people with so you're, born with the genetic predisposition of certain types of preside traits in those might be more attractive to certain types of sports. Also, so could be that you are more into playing with a group in a team, and you know you like that aspect out emotional. What personality attracts the gulf for one side with a heart, but the mental discipline, though it takes like you knows in just the play golf even or in any sport- is this all about mental two younger mentally tough apps. Lately and say you. You need that, so I think you come to those at least to excel in sports comes with certain genetic predisposition, and then they develop at even further. So I think it's a disappointed.
About a control. Your motions under pressure, high stakes, So another injurious control over your body. Now it's noisily control over your minds, I couldn't baseball, is ninety percent. The baseball's have mental right was returned I'll, be but your eminence being able to have the discipline to practice, but also to control emotions under high stress rebound from losses re in us. If something happens, you lose a point you get now. You ve got to get right back on there and not be kind of which were criminals all good life skills. So I think you know you near your track that you support for certain reasons. Then he developed these skills along the way or get a bit without sports using you, wanna be mentally tough. What way, what what's a pathway, if you didn't do, sports like Susan did? What is interesting is that you can actually, when we talk about mental toughness, we're talking about when you're sort of emotionally aroused or have a negative emotion how you can kind of in a way, suppress it and keep going on and not let it kind of defeat.
And so we size have shown that actually mindfulness and meditation increases parts of this, particularly the left, prefrontal cortex works to down, regulate the amygdala, and so those people who can sort of scarce have overcome trauma, ambiguous What are your brain is pretty being involved in emotion and flight fighter flight lots, and so it's resilience or mental toughness is really about how we can overcome these negative emotions and go on and answered if we frame things in a positive way, we find that we have more activation left prefrontal. Things you can do that one way to do that is through meditation, so F, just as a question like for developing mental toughness, what f, adversity and failure actually. So, of course everybody feels bad and angered right.
But what, if that is actually fuels better perform? What you say is that which doesn't kill you make your stronger regret, he's gonna talk. I augur that makes you like you know. So there is, there is a sort of optimum. We all need a little bit of stress that actually helps us increase our preferred. And there's the servant population a little bit. You know. So it's all the amount so little bit we'll get you to this. What we call optimal state of arousal and increase and improve Europe from its too much, however, while using arousal until my reading, guys like physiological geologic stimulated stimulation exactly so, you need a little foreigners are really are another. He cared for home, but yeah, really like this game, buddy, they will not a good example of this. If I may attract, but my father, my father ran track. He over they were competing against in York, athletic club, all white or wasp of the day.
And he will know is now- and I am glad that in the end his club Heiner club, they picked up everyone who is not admitted to the New York S letter, clip reflection, It is my father ran alongside juice, pearly, not anyone from your family. Now the Berlin stamp of every morning, so much or I shall write so there is still a racial dimension to this, as the worst is so much in society back, then it was deep deeper than even today, by as much as any, complaints. It was worse and only the best of everything So the coming around the bachelor S, my guy's name- is Johnny Johnson is ahead of the the runner from the New York Athletic Club and on the back stretch for the final straight away, the guy from New York Athletic Club. Johnny, doesn't overhears him yell to his runner, catch that Nigger Louth sideways. Talking today about back, I was like ok, that's what I'm so he said this He ain't gonna catch it at an increase to win the game
what of Asia Motivation exactly two so so too little is not good. Just enough words right, but if he lets say, got really angered by that's the point where he was so enraged at he kind of his is performance, could have subtract yards to evict fired on much myself. Just enough should you grew up in a huge household? Yes, I did so yourselves Gore, Therefore, I do not place boy. This is A pot original, really true that seen in the movie airplane, where the flight attended. Then stewardess was had reading material and sullen seated their says. I just need something: light up, here's a pamphlet on famous jewish athletes- and I know that I am exaggerating the saint or those answers you wish to. Yeah. Ok are important, these exceptions, but you know in general, yeah that the stereotype is is legit. I was never break his troops. There go back now
You know what I know is before this episode, like both your asses out industry watching us exhaust. How are they going to night? I did I played the several sports, and, but I didn't like it, because I was forced into plain sports, because my father was a really accomplished. Athletes another way to say, as you didn't, have a mental toughness. That's right! You know what I think is another way to just twenty minutes. This is our here and a woman Heather illness was going to replace born you point out. They played everything here, Oh, you were lightened wrestling, Russia also down there and I play basketball street ball in the Bronx, and here's the measure of things just so. You know if it's, if it's a five on five choosing site, how we're in that ranking or you chosen
his first for openers, never first, but I was like fifth like midway in the Bronx. But then I spent European Lexington Massachusetts and I went to the playground there and we play ball and I went to jump to block someone shot and I block it with my elbow I realized I jumped much higher than was necessary to block this person shot good. My whoa blocked the before so they all thought. I was some amazing about what play when it was an average we're just black such funding, That's why we need to go to America coming back more than my interview with warmer nationals. Dirty visor to Barack Obama. Susan rice who's got a new book, tough laugh and we just explore unpacking. Tough luck,
and how would I came about- and I will talk more about that. We start on, have guns secret for you. I'm gonna consider singing all of the ads on this shell. There's just one and where to get out of hearing there go to patriarch arms last star talk and sub. Where does at the five dollar level or higher to listen the star talk ad free. You can download all current episodes into your favorite podcast player and never we're here. Another commercial on star talk ever again. You will definitely not have to hear me saying if you support us at Patria, dark coms. Last our talk, radio, I mean I'm just thinking I mean just
the future of space and the secrets of our planet reveal start. I will come back to start talks at nice at Berlin Havoc Gimme, your full title cause. When you first came out. I didn't cognitive neuroscientist, an assistant professor psychiatry, the icon school of medicine amount sign. I should ask why
a good man. I love that, after a big, rigid language, learning how to replace my interview with Susan Rice, former National security advisor to the President, when we talk about mental toughness running, seem in her book? Tough love, but in there is also just how do you deal with stress mental toughness wanting just come back from failure, but just stress about you know if you try to keep peace in the world is no greater source of strengthening, then geopolitics, so at an Obama administration like so many was not short on crises, so I just asked her what we
Challenges in that rose check it out so think. The hardest part of the job of national security Advisor is the number and the weight of the issues that you're confronting at any. Given time I mean it's, it's almost overwhelming. It feels I disc It is like us slab of concrete lying on your chest, and then they disk put more more bricks on it and you still got a breathe. So for example, in my first six months on the job. This is beginning in June and July, first of two thousand thirteen. The day I got in the office, the Egypt blew up any coup occurred, which we didn't actually term occur. It really helps bring. This was after the arab spring, but yeah in then Edward Snowden was
in the middle of doing his nasty, releasing alleged. U S, government secrets, we had The war in Syria evolve into the use of chemical weapons and the challenge over the red line that President Obama drew as to whether or not we deal with the chemical weapons through the use of force. We had you a extraordinary secret negotiation going on that led to the ran deal. We had secret negotiations going on that led to the opening to Cuba. We just had all these things. They want to sit for six months But day one was Egypt, snow and an ill, and that's not even given you the whole picture of what we are dealing with but a crush of those issues and the import of each of them and if you know the downside of failure for our secured,
and our interests on any given one of those was quite daunting: so head what kind of people handle stress better than others? Well there actually been some studies which find that there are some genetic differences. So, We all have its adapted to have a stress response, so you have wits in which all the HP access, but you not fight or flight, responds gives you seriousness the hypothalamus adrenal? No, no it pits very adrenal access. So basically it's everywhere. Saying I'm nor up enough friend and up enough for it and then also have cortisol so that kind of gets you going after Rhine or fight something- and we all have an that's adaptive, but then what comes next is how do you handle it? How do you go back? It's just I go yet before you continue. So the idea that, when you're scared, you pee pants re, ok from birds, because a bird if you're skipper, poops in them,
eyes off right right, so they don't carry extra weight but actually know the reversal in the sympathetic nervous system is aroused, we actually, it restricts, see, become less likely to basic the crap, your Patsy everyone talk about open, you paint, that's it you're saying I don't know. Where are they actually plain from the physiologically speaking that of nine up in its tightens up? It stays in its not the time to be doing your business, where IRAN serve me. Well, I usually it's better help if you were a little later personally rather pants, because I don't want to do anything with you, That might be a way to get the animals have run away from you. I see I see my mother. Ok, so you have this responds everything sort of restriction, but then the parasympathetic nervous system kind of kicks, in which kind of relaxes everything comes down, and that's how
people respond or deal with stress, so genetically speaking some people or more what we call resilient. They can respond to stress an unkind of calm down their nervous system. Chemist retrained, so what, techniques beheld seconds. We call it it's a bio psychosocial kind of phenomena where there's some biological aspects there, some things in your environment that can help you I'm, but really, I guess, yeah tighten their quota. They does more exposure to stress, make you better, etc, the next time for doesn't make you worse, there's a theory that it's called about inoculation so in small doses, so that the whole thing there's this actually replica coddling of the american minds about how you know we're protecting. Ok, regional, not your yeah, exactly Jonathan Height and its safe space. It Yeah does Gregg Lupi are on offer and basically no we're creamy safe spaces for protect. Your kids were China that allow them to have any anxiety on, but actually it's good to have it in small amounts to have a look but of adversities adversities reminded, say spaces. Are you warned in advance that some might say something that would trigger yet
exactly and then, sir, you avoided exactly which is not really good, psychologically speaking. What we wanted to actually do decreasing society is called exposure. The more you expose people. You can train the brain in the body how to respond to them. When something like a really traumatic happens, you'll be more prepared to handle that so small doses can help you, but in wars We could really it could hinder yet editor, and we also find that, like jazz specially during our youth and childhood, if your exposed the high quarters all levels, it actually affects the way the Hippocampus, the parliament of all the memory develops on, but we find that two people Traumatize early life have smaller hip account by, but in later in life you can actually try to re grow. Those neurons, I'm an exercise. Aerobics exercises are used pearl of your book, a bus, yes The camp is poorly yes, but everything I alone is the campus tell you how I feel like I've heard that showed. I think I heard my brief
of course this exciting S, and how did she cope with the stress test let's find out the other challenge was how do you know just deal with all the crises. In your inbox, but How- You also, as I say in the book, put points on the board. Get affirmative things done We chose to do that. We thought would be beneficial to the United States so far but like negotiating the Paris Climate agreement, we didn't have to do that, but we chose to that was an affirmative muttered to be more than just solving problems? You want to actually be proactive rank and be remembered for doing something, progressive or positive. Directly by so those were the two big challenges and then, in terms of my background and what prepared me I mean. First of all, I was fortune to have had a series of jobs in the run up to becoming National security advisor
and had given me a real insight into the work and that the the issues and how to navigate but I also had learned the child, something that I and was really in value those National security adviser, which is to be able to compartment ally's ill, the painful tough, wrenching issues that you got a deal with from when you come here, and try to be a mom or a daughter or wife or whatever it is, and not let the weight of those issues literally prevent you sleeping exercising functioning murder is enormous, wasn't just a bad day. The offer on Planet earth figs back there. No, you learn some set up in that job that you really wish you didn't know birthday day in the western hemisphere right. So I actually learn. That, then, is I explained through during my parents really ugly and in violent divorce, yet still China and perform
in school and be a good didn't play on my sports teams and try to maintain my friendships that focus on what you have the ability to control and don't let that which you can completely control, crippled, emotionally or psychologically compartmentalizing. Is there a downside to Herbert Memories Grant wonder ass. Might my most creative thoughts come when things kindest spillage shrank from one thing to another? So is a puff, over compartmentalized. I'm offers no, it isn't adaptive defence mechanism because you know things are stress one overwhelming, but you stopped a functioning
society are gonna, be written out of reciprocal was one technical to suppress a repressed thinks the unconscious Blackmore Mental arising, as you should have put it in a different brain state, only can access it when you're one say and not the other which temporarily works, but we see psychiatric illnesses where it in a sense there, over compartmentalizing at the actually split into these different. They used to be called multiple personality disorder. Now it's called identity. What is called identity disorder, but they basically the ideas that you now start forming a whole mother identity. That's associated with those traumatic thought is unlimited kosovars right and then you can't accessing can only access them when you're in one state and not the others, had become so vamosed so separate that the information flow. Isn't there anymore and you kind of dissociate is what we call it so pursuit of identity disorder that leader it. So what is the water ways? People learn to cope with difficult situations when they have to function in the rest of your life,
is its compartment allege that the only way we are not about to so there are numbered defence mechanisms and we all kind of ten toward one of the other like, for example, people who are highly intelligent use, intellectual ASEAN as a defence mechanism, rather than I can't imagine who that might be, but you can kind of export over intellectualize things away, but the but that's a more mature defence mechanism. So there's more mature ones and there's more primitive one not only must the primitive were. Very primitive wines are less sophisticated, so they'll, be you just like where you automatically repress something or relegated to the unconscious, where it can then come up in other ways right. We can late economically on, I could add, ons invited uninvited exam,
so then enemies, classic cases would like Freud described. If these psychosomatic suit symptoms of a sudden, you have some weird twitching your arm or you know, comes out in other ways. So I think they're they're, more adaptive types of defence mechanisms arm and their ones that can be more problematic, but they all taken to the extreme can become problematic and create psychiatric Ellis. The idea I mean the real goal is to integrate the uncomfortable memories and anxiety, provoking thoughts into your consciousness in a sort of neutral way where it doesn't disturb your daily. But would you just raised a point you if you have a really double memory? Why not suppress it because it will come out and as in other ways, as always, I suppresses so effectively. Yeah it'll never come up, maybe for years and years and years, and then ten years later of a sudden, you have some leaders, Haddock attack, as you were, triggered by something that was like deepen your unconscious. So the best idea is to re enter eight that memory in a neutral way? That's what she doesn't look, so it doesn't lurk in the background, doing weird things and affect you behaviour outside of your wariness. Occasionally
never really goes leaders to be able to be here does not have something lurk. That's why I'm all right sounds like a good thing to have lurking limits. Lack of good like these. Where are we learn that the lack of inciting your own unconscious processes is really not great, so you know just being sort of ignorant blind to them. It is not a good policy, I will go, take a break when we come back we'll get into the anatomy of national security when startled returns, free space inside it down to earth yours, this need to start
we're back start off in this segment. We're gonna talk about the future of national Security feature my interview with Susan Rice, former national security adviser to Bonnac Obama, and since we talk about security, we bring in somebody would s what he does living. Stephen Stephen, Garcia, welcome! Thank you too, for they must start off. It is and you're here, you're kind of local to us. Yes, sir, we answer will compel you back a totally pull you bad, but I'm deftly offended park, ass, excellent expert on data and cyber security chief information, security officer at consensus, very cool company name. What is a blot on checks unit? Yes, watching
awkward tech company very nice and advisory board member for wreckers universities, big data programmes, so big A big data would put on his business card. So let's go. Susan Interview, animal, come right back to you. Do you have a sense of the direction of the future of security, national security? Is it how many soldiers have lined up on a battlefield or is how many programmers you have to protect your your cyberspace? Or is it how many scientists and engineers you have to innovate. I mean so. The the profile of war is evolving. Yes, so with what do you see the future? And if you had a crystal ball, given your life experience? Well, I'm
I hate to traffic and crystal ball, but I wouldn't outs in several things. On the domains in which conflict can occur are evolving. So if we think of fighting is being honor, on the ground or in the air or on the sea, but it also increasingly, as we discussed Little bit earlier in space undersea in the cyber domain and and elsewhere that are very hard for the average american tune. In all those domains, are already active battle spaces, at least in theory. Those are the physical domains, then there's the means of combat. Potentially, That's where things like artificial intelligence, machine Learning data, the biotech in an crisper
come in, because all all of these are ways in which the nature of the rules that we have to engage in, combat potentially can change radically and then the question, because Such moral issues is ones of agency like do we ever want to have fully autonomous weapons, So what happens when an artificial intelligence out smarts the people who built these weapons yes a statement, one. What kind of security risk do we face today is a country cyber security is, and what should we do back? I wanted to start base. I was whose sad thing we don't want autonomous weapons Rankly every major Sci we receive is talked about right to does want to space icy, Tron, all the matrix movie today I want to judgment day. This is known we just gotta, can't let that happen. We just wandering. We just want ordinary people giving the command to kill
rather than yes genes, giving the command to kill you d, better, like that alike, must drop. I think I got a chance to reason with him this is a machine. I must machine, has a higher level of reasoning than you do with it, Broad on this point, we humans are normal. Useful revival of his work. I mean we send him make irrational decisions which can be good and bad right, but I mean we have empathy. So that's, but but sometimes we might choose in terms of numbers, to kill more people because of an emotion, The seizure and nurses irrational one gift so brightly when we're going with the then get I wouldn t. I also have those same promotional profiles in principle, but if they like us,
better version, because they don't actually feel a motion. We can programme and an algorithm, but the actual feeling of say you know sadness or paint or empathy. I dont think that they will ever have that. How do we know regions? There wasn't a programmed into you, because I have some, experience. I think. Therefore I am I feel like what should we be doing? What's a zero point, two right. We have new theatres of war right, see right your boy go now. He's gonna show called blind spot where they did a whole episode. Some hackers taken over a satellite that was weapon eyes in RE and Europe back in the region and we talk about star wars. It felt like I find it was how the wrong possibility were now, maybe not so much. Most of the world's data travel through images we star wars under Reagan because most people live today. We're not yet born when Reagan was presently there enough you not referring to the movie. Sir, your forgot it please. I probably programme progress. I thought they flow of monies to create a phased, a failsafe, foolproof defence system. You too
and render the Soviets weaponry absolute obsolete by does it needs just remain defensive. It can be offensive, and so, with this new age, space race with satellite going up into space, does not appear ah the undersea water cables, gate and tat for information that could be another big source of national gives so we're gonna be moving away from marching armies to defence of cyberspace and makes more as a future of war. It makes more sense because the risk to reward ratios about right, there's a a value on human life versus data rights oath, you can still take over a country with a few keystrokes versus standing army makes.
More sense. A multiple sounds like he's fine about like what you what's your basement. Do it bears how you do you will, just as it also gives lesser powers the opportunity to enter the theatre of war as opposed to our you, no more commonly known enemy, it democratized who can start a war is Erasmus programmes that the playing field does change little right, because you don't need that capital for thanks plays ok is creeping in is weird as it is that we could be cyber attacks just another way to be attacked, so I'd be. Otherwise. We spending money on tanks, spend the money on cyber protection and you know Saint Roma, not when he asked I will tell me
request for the environment of homeland security. They do have the cyber security infrastructure security to see, and they are responsible for protecting our federal networks and there's a few pillars of things they do protect on a national level, but I think it's important to two to not just think about this in terms of nation states. We also Think about this in terms of private companies, because the internet doesn't discriminate? Whether I commend to you as a private individual, to make my way to the government right, so it has to be a partnership rightly All governments use third parties anyway right, so, if you're x Y see random company as government contracts, your potential factor, but I am choosing what countries needed to do going forward to change their approach to national
security issues has taken up, so should the future. Those meetings that you described with these heads of agency should they haven't ethicist sitting at the same table because we could use it. I that the health and rights we have lawyers, maybe we should have lawyers and ever since it I say, lawyers have national security lies, but each of us actually have to be emphasis. Not just have a specialised somebody to polices because we don't think about the consequences of secular absolutely is not school. No and in the other problem, Mama give two, but otherwise don't exactly ethics that we may apply to these questions of war and peace are lacking. Same ethics at other countries apply. And how do you, therefore, have global norms and rules about how to deal with these new technical with the Geneva convention.
And an end to a large extent. That worked, but you can observe and in police and enforce you know those kinds of crimes. Is a lot harder to see how you, Listen in force in what you ve taught a machine to do. One of those Atta year control or cyber attacker, or what this
This information. To absolutely I mean so it's getting wild out their ethical informations, getting recognised. Yes, absolutely, and what will? It was exactly what we ve seen with respect to how Russia's trying to corrupt our democracy and pet Americans against each other, not just their effective at it, and it will work unless we get hip to it and work together to prevent it. Information is definitely being weapon ized by domestic actors and foreign actors, and we need to find new ways to determine the quality of information and not allow the weapons to be turned against our unity and democracy is part of the cost of an open free society which we have susceptibilities the closed societies don't have an exacting and that's an eternal battle. Let's hope it's an eternal battle, because otherwise we lose. I look up
sensibilities of banking, there's interpersonal shows how people in treating each other there's elections All of this has a cyber component because we now interact through our Facebook pages and we see ads or videos. So how do you? How do you balance the free movement of people through society with security risks? we face walking into its lifeward delicately they forever now. I hope every tool double edged right, so we're in
when in free society- and we want that- but there are risks to that great and so in particular, attention with, with our elections, point to a Microsoft. Has a book called on Russian Roulette Africa with before there was, but it it's. It's really good breakdown of what happened us in terms of Russia did and on what you effective we have here is that will in particular facebook? and the Cambridge analytical scandal. We had this company that essentially start applauding all these data points very one day I don't call equivalent, but they effectively did a Juno mapping of all of our preferences and data points and that weapon eyes. The data that you're talking about this is what happened so now. They know a needle is very disposed to want to talk about this intolerable that an open we control farms where, where there are these these kind,
fake accounts. There are designed to seem like real people and start inflaming people and getting them into conversations are now, so you have a polarization. So you you you effectively, because the United States is a tight pray and so cannot be avenged on that point, right, like you, don't beat us from the outside right you take on, that will be a civil war where the guy was life, not we're gonna, so easy, Ok, I love you. Please stop trying to hurt us. Ok, I'm sorry, I'm late Ritual Heather! this sounds like something you guys never thought could or would happen. The such you knew that it would have hot buttons as human beings, but to have a weapon eyes put against us too, against each other. I mean it's psychological warfare and it's just basically the brain is an information processing machine, so you can manipulate people by men.
Killing information that they are access for. You know you could do that one on one, but you know you can do that for an entire society. Now we have the tools tat. We ve always had the tools to do it. So, let's, let's be clear another better that yet there much better and more effective, but the truth of the matter is what happened with what you said: Cambridge political and Facebook in their weapons position of information is something that the debt, military cause, synapse, that's exactly what This is why I don't understand why people don't say what things are that is called science. It is forbidden because it is that effective, so What kind of policy changes do we need to put into play to protect us going forward without completely constraining our freedoms, a little alot? What would work in helping with data protection the European Union as little stronger la stronger that then we are on that, so it would help if our data was treated like the commodity that it is.
What does that entail? I dont know what you mean: we use access access to your personal information, By that I mean also like just restrictions on this information. I mean you know. I was talking to an executive facebook who actually left Facebook because on there putting restrictions on this information and political adds, that's really dangerous, so I think there are please is where we can in this sort of private sector. You know, or at least that let there be policies in place so that your nonsense is in getting out there, at least in the political realm, which influence is how we vote and the media they have to be. The watchdogs are supposed to be not laptops, not saying wash really doing things because we're being unconsciously manipulated all the time because we're all in a simulation and someone else and programming our behavior. He had to say all the administration said this and that's it like your job is to question right, and so the public trust the media to give out information. We ve seen very recently. That has not always been the case. And Heather which will be manipulated without even knowing it testing.
Cities power. The thing must have us think we're making decisions of our own free well, but we're really doing things because we're being unconsciously manipulate it all the time because we're all gonna simulation and someone else and programming our behaviour sweet, tat sort. We got it s not right. Now we ve got it we got into she. Would you haven't? We gotta do another good around? Have you two where we say so? We gotta ended their Heather thanks for coming usual jerk, a man always good all right. This has been start off and I've been your host. Neil digress, Thyssen, as always, keep looking at which you could listen. Star talk commercial, free, joint star, talk on page,
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Transcript generated on 2020-01-19.