Welcome to start on your place in the universe where science and pop culture collide knocked off begin right now this is a start off Neil addressed. see here your personal astrophysicist and today we're gonna talk about. Forensic profound, not only the real thing. But what happens? becomes novel eyes and becomes fictional eyes, storytelling jack, always good, always good to be here alive, alive we come and we're gonna need some serious levity, like me, and yet I am what parliament has already done now. Gallows humor is when you're about to die, What are you calling I gotta cholera you're already dead. I want to know how you want have

fascinating pair of guests. On this episode. First, we have produced. for well and we ve actually had her on before and she has a nerd novel. She's gonna tell us about, and she not only talked about dead people talk about dead people in the science behind The crimes that are involved, she also took that space lands that's why we ve got her on this show and but she's a novelist. She came to the subject as a journalist. But now we have a novelist. started running out of because he was actually Medical examiner aright: this is his expertise. Jonathan Ays, Doktor Johnson Haze welcome to start talk at pleasure. Lao but not so you, you came to the writing profession.

having started as a sort of professional of dead people, but which which what is your official sort of title other than sort we work in the Medical examiners office. But what does someone call you as a profession as a scientific profession? My scientific tigers, colleges and obviously position makes diagnoses by examining some statements impatience and then maybe it love. If you the way, I see it and it's all just listed under the microscope. Mythology Caesar that position is more jobs, is the examination of the boy after death of its kind as much information as possible, but it is certain tat, this, after the outside of the body

examined for scores to identify in various diseases and the boys open examined, didn't early release. Animal the organs remains a building stock in the body and religious, in addition, testing, for example, with the drugs invaders, dna testing, thirty injuries there legal any injuries. Two, then, before an autopsy, so that that, basically just as the forensic without businesses, especially for countries to autopsies, the victims of violence and naturally suspicious,

so on a daily basis? I examined goose interpret the few figures shoulders down. He gets the gear. The docks against this be examined. Are you trying to translate your life? They knocking to interpret the wounds, have gases. It was an accident, but that's the area of expertise of the pathologist frenzy and so on. A daily basis in the woods trying to interpret the rules and what actually happens not now. How often doktor do you and dig and someone who has been felled by gunshots and you're you're determination, is obeyed die of a gunshot wounds, that is yet to happen, because what we tend to be very little got guts. Shopman farmer, like this belief or the most other types of entry into force, of the five to five times more likely to be dyed, who shot

and if this thought wow look at that? Ok, but should I predict that brings to put on the table the very quick? That's not a gunshot wound with. We have that saw the easy statistics on that. If the two people sort of got into a fight, and then one person ultimately dies is? Is it important that you find out the actual thing that killed the person or but what does that? Even matter if the person's dead and they have more Opel injuries now is that, four led up to it is critically important that we find it exactly why the basis is dead. The reason that we have to know exactly what the present time, because you'd be surprised at the complexities depressed is that arise. The legal bases in the medical assistance die, but agreed an alteration or fight, so we spend a lot of time getting it right, and these have endless debates about the exact wording of the desert

and an art is what you do filmed. No it's it's. We document of findings very graphically. You find the video documentation about trying to see that the video walk through that will loved the intimacy itself. Is. That is not why not? It has already. I don't know, I'm sure, there's belonged extremely tradition, tradition along the faintest indignation. Autopsy belong, for example, the typical autopsy say: you have a forty year old man whose jogging on the treadmill it is at his german classes at all. Subsidies also demonstrate full participation in the second cause death that adult gypsy take part in our belief in the complex case against child abuse, spit it out to discuss this and take a couple of days. I'm so says a long period of time was ended.

I don't get it likes to be closely monitored while they're doing never see him. Why don't you ask? I mean? Presumably forensic pathologies come a long way over the decades. There might be thing in ten years. Someone would know to look for that. You don't no to look for, because the field has not advanced to that point. Would it be good if we could reach, open the videos and have a third party do with the autopsy based on the video, as They were your eyes. Looking at the same body, I understand what you say things I visited. The university studies come a long way. It really happen

I mean, a stab wounds is talk back to twenty one misunderstanding. Nineteen, twenty one was demonstrated until one and we do document things very thoroughly. We take a lot of photographs, I mean, I suppose you could eventually reality had sat video Wolden and touches with three dimensional interactive thing going on that that everything that so far as to say, even also about unknown unknown Saturday night ass, I said that I think it would be terribly com. video camera of men, just as in every single strategy, was itself as well as what you're saying that for what you do. It really is the fact that, We continue to kill each other same way like waiting.

We don't really get that creative when it comes to kill him each other, but he'll be surprised that it in this way that he is now and every because he something at the embassy Ah, it's not him in terms of the homicides dosage. The murders in a manner is better, with knives guns in baseball bat. Not it's. It's more adjusted the peculiar circumstances, things that people get in a position to get themselves into always be something it at addressing you bought explain. that in that's fascinating, actually not now I remove it. You can major inferences pathology in college. So what? What does one major and premature death is its summit kings they get to where you are to become offensive devoted, is to go to college degree merged. this will then after graduating medical, three as of at least three as three to five years. Apology vessel

the need for one year frenzy trading, I Miami well and then Seven, twelve years after you began your messages. Where did the medical examiner? Medical examiner is a physician whose specialised I have noted at elected position, we investigate deaths, violent and suspicion. Quincy to your jurisdiction. Wednesday, and actually no man, I used less hesitant when I was a kid man Quincy with the best Jack Ludwig

walk around these. How did you eat? Sandwiches fell just doin that you're the arts of sea, the guy was great man did sandwich. You know no needs to the urgency of this. Business didn't go Edison appetising placed with joy. So what This training in your life experience did you feel compelled to put into your novel. Private, have precious blood a hard death as its funds as one, and that is the second in the past is is like, I think, most novelists. They send it back. I should say it set in New York City,

after nine eleven zero at a story, but I used to love in my day today. Experiences I didn't. I can't we don't really talk about cases in its natural medical privacy, but I want to talk about things I seen and things disturbed and upset me so at the moment that it entered into the boat and I'm leavin is one of the things that the step and then set up something I work after that. I was in his office in a very solid months, which is trying to identify people that that was the hardest part of my life, but I try to make and try to make the air the description of forensic says what it feels like to be more in the snow and the sites of death. I try to make the greatest it. So let me ask you: that's breakfast. She just brought this up and I don't want to get super personal

you can approach the subject here. How do you deal with all this kind of morose, just depressing information that you're absorbing almost daily the last few years have been made it pretty hard to state as anything better? I think it's me experience that human beings do terrible things to each other, but also up for them. Sport and given the opportunity, people do the right thing and I I met the United the mad, as I see that the exceptions and that they may be far will finally on a daily basis, most people trying to do the right thing. Ok, I hope, prevails it is how we think about that. So, what's interesting, if we contrast Jonathan your your pathway into writing novels with that of Patricia Cornwall. Who is, share with us, some of

what inspires her when she approaches a novel that now it's a bit of forensic pathology to make it run. Let's check it out. What we are really talking about is Ex exploration were explore, which is exactly why we want to go to the moon and do all those cool things is and when, if your be an artist, you need to explore and go out and let it? How are you what the story is? Let it tell you what the painting is like what the James Mc Neill Whistler, he how it had this boat when you would take him this flat, bottomed, boat and the Thames at dusk, and he look, you stand there on the filthy terms in the worrying era and look at what the light was doing. I remember that and then he would go back any would paint something evocative: because he was there and you feel he was there. You Hemingway was in the places that he's talking about, and I very much encouraged to people. Here's my. I have three words for everybody. Just show

up, never know what you might find, so that I saw I like that, because what what you're saying is that to really not to put words in your mouth but to infuse a story with a certain authenticity. It can't be just things you ve read about or heard about. If you experienced them first hand they manifest differently. Even in yours. Sentences and in the words you choose and and and and your emotional investment becomes, that much deeper than affair accounting of what you just told me, that's absolutely right. You want to invoke your son I me why go into more if you can just see a video of an autopsy, because when your senses are assaulted by everything in there, it is a totally different thing is, is different. Is reality from virtual reality, probably even more so, and for example, I can remember

I can remember how shocked I would feel when I go down there described for the medical examiner is, and I would put on the gloves- and you know this was back in the day we didn't get in space suits like they do tat. with hazmat, nor all that- and I would but my hands on the body on the table. Ride lean on well, I'm jotting. whatever their tellin me and I'd is like a cold marble, because in you'd be maize, over and over again about things like that, you would not have emotional reactions to it? If you didn't feel at new weren't there, didn't see it or you weren't. You weren't standing there. One state trooper is looking through the woman's wallet and she was buy a car on the way home from the bar about three o clock in the morning and No, nobody really knew what she'd gone. Therefore, why and she was at by herself such a bad, our and he's going to reward. Let me finds a little fortune from a fortune cookies that she had said.

and it said you will still. You will soon have an encounter that will change the course of your life, so goin off to a bar to meet her encounter, not thinking it's gonna, be a car and you look at these. Things, and you dont, know whether to laugh or cry You do know. I feel this is if I dont oh and see those things. I have no right to write about search engine The New York, you probably feel the same way right, because you're you're right emanates from your first hand. Experience is good. I good and bad. I think its inception, essential aspects, the smells the sands sites. There is no substitute for first hand. Experience then again, I mean, within seconds a fiction science fiction. People have used their imaginations

You like to see this spirit that I don't think that's really rich in some ways. No aim of a truth is a kind of some another ten, the fantasy. I don't take any emerging at an taken in liberties with the science, because I can't I wouldn't I wouldn't lie about it and that limits that you can do with the set of facts in front of you, and so I was gonna, be suddenly jewish. Like see, as I said, this is not so much a friend's sciences, forensic science fiction. I think that they take the principles friends signs may make it will glamorous they speeded up. They put sexy lighting the unresolved. I think it may not get the technical accuracy. the basic science, but it gets the man- and I really do like that is for that reason I think CSI has been great, the tragic loss of people into forensics. This is a field that really needs good people, smuggling people to show

what years, what you're saying as you when you're exploring the fish? None of your storytelling, it's in the whatever relationships led to the crime. you're not in a position to set aside ouch any other hence I say that only because we look at a Stephen King novel off any touches on supernatural forces, and leave them a little bit cloaked, but something manifest and then another dimension that people seem to like it can even read about, but but you stick to the facts on this boat. That's that's! Just my rights not rising and seal Orinoco Syndicate revenge. You like the smell of Customs Throat. I want to make to accurately depict the spray of blood and so, when I watch what a lot of like trying stuff, sometimes it's edifice Your level, like the costs, will do that. I would say that result, foreign review crime movie and the end like biggest defiance in three days,

the bloody still bright red that that's upsetting to because blinkers brown just so right. I understand that a written, inefficient myself. I understand the challenges and creating something interesting, limiting and I'm still people taking liberties with the fact that at the moment, as that, this should do less significant technical break. When we come back, we're gonna find out how Patricia and putting her I'm in space for pearly earth was, that's what people in space and having from the crimes there where you been need, some more forensic pathology to figure out what the hell is going on when the startalk return. What do you need help managing depression, burning mine, this technique to combat anxiety or working through relationship issues getting started is easy with tell it doc.

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Slash starred talk today to get started. That's de L, a the OECD Coms last star talk for Jedi Power, twenty twenty one award information visit, Janey Power, Dotcom, slash awards, hey I'm Royal Percival and I support start talk on patriot bringing the universe down to earth. This is star talk with Neil De Grass Thyssen Rebecca already followed with Russia, we offer Patricia Cornwall and we have an authentic medical examiner in the house. in the house we ve got doctored Jonathan Jacket, Jonathan Haze, whose- only medical examiner for New York City of all places, but also a novelist in his own right chuck right before the end of the second segment? Look like you want

slip into question? What was that, while because he talked about how when you write forensics fiction that it makes a kind of sexy and draws people into the field as they say, he's had romances those different the right to, That's it I'm sorry Neil hugely, unfortunately, unfortunately, unfortunately, for me, mob romance leads to it, but what I am interested to know, how do you find same thing in your field of astrophysics, do you think's I and friction causes people to now like pursue the science cosmic get does so that's why, even though, just like Jonathan I'll call out things that are not real or wouldn't have That way, but I say the overall impact is positive. There

because what people can do nothing get interested and then so I'd I'd like that, Let me read some more about it. then the reading some more about it actually brings them into an anchored. state of understanding, whereas the fantasy, so to tickle their interest of front and in Jonathan I heard anecdotally that biology and chemist- professors in college, founded increase in women, taking courses that were sort of pre forensic. inspired by the the the actor who you like, you want to be like them in the series crime scene, situation in sea, as I did find this is well coming up. Well, I think, increasingly forensics is becoming a matriarch, a lot of that. women going in that field

Sadly, in my field, my office, I would ask the biggest problem in fifty percent. Female medical examiner stop and I think that's common and in other areas too, but I have existed there dressed by the did. The actors, the think they have been in minds the bridge sitting, observing the fiddler how to bury a body. Nobody I mean. I grew up at a time when no scientist was portrayed as anything you'd want to be like. viewer cool and you saw movie that scientists and the scientists were not cool and so There was no. There was no draw. There was no pop culture force operating how you might align your life's ambitions, cs. I all the actors are beautiful. the man, the women, the story telling what their wearing plus their share? with real life problems right that boyfriends girlfriends relationship problem, so they fully fleshed out characters. So Johnson, are you a fully fledged

where'd you go. How does it look at the bar herbs and was a? What do you do? I studied dead bodies? Is they deserve better short conversation. It might seem real people. You know that, because there is this interest, those ask the new magazine a few years back. That said, the frenzied pathologists, the new super bottles, because are you turn on your to be set in the hour of the day or night? You gonna see a friend six November there it's like Brian Simpson's shriller, whether those bearing a body in the basin to walk, not another route, but the way my career Forensics, Germany's from trade and popular culture, really catches the imagination of peoples. I think it's because it saw In the old days a year ago, with muscles, he knew how to handle a gun and friends existed.

It is an area where a nerd with a brain and shop in cites is able to be even more powerful and that's why the forensic sides they think become rigid, make savings Frances asked about this year, while artless pick up with my interview with pride sure Cornwall who in her next book theirs by crime in space? Let's see what says about that, I think I might be the first author that has written about a case of violence. and low earth orbit in microgravity in space, in other words, to do it in the credible way that better science fiction a mean everything that I have in that seen that scar, Petre has two remotely work the situation room in the White House. To get I mean it's within the realm of possibility and the physics of it.

What would happen when there's blood or the type of projectile somebody might use? If you were going to do that and look you know as well as I do, the Russians have carried guns up there to the space station. They don't Sudan advertise the hypothetical true and we stick to the whole it is my little mother mantra. These days is from from earth from space, round to six feet under because wherever we go, we will export what we do whether its in orbiting laboratories down the road or when people. Actually, go to the moon and try to set up habitats Remit cars or it is gonna happen were also gonna have death. You know we're gonna have things that we don't like to think about in? For me, I'm always wondering What are you gonna do about that when people will be paid whether there on earth are in space and yours,

to tell that that kind of story. We know that the fingers kind of fun about it, because I talked to the real people. I talked to NASA people about this. You know I talked to. to Jack Fisher that in an astronaut who was up there for a while, we talked about what blood would do and fluids and I'm just to be clear blood. That's not your body! That's intrude blood! This, not in your body, blood spilled out of your body. What will then in them what happens you know if we ve got a scene where some like this has occurred in some astronauts, you come and will you the dream chaser, I know its, not crew jet, but it probably will be an eight year they get to this this orbit. Her that's imperil well, if you ve had anything where you have death inside and a violent death. What's gonna be like How does a medical examiner worked at the Jones? The this brings up an interesting question. You are completely trained for earth based crimes

that is, a crime operating under the laws of physics as they manifest in one g here on earth, can you imagine a future where of colonies on the moon or Mars or beyond, nor or were protests in space. Can your man in a branch, sub branch of your field that then this sort of learned space physics to do you You know how much space is this going to be involved at a good pace, a time the man is going to spend zero gravity than to be very limited parcels and opened? It comes to things like stay station, new logic colonies were, people would actually live, which is rising. Violence is messy like like its way out, I think they'll be at normal gravity and they never tradition. Medical examiner role escaped people have to say: I think it would be very specialised cases like like talking about setting up something violent, spilling murder takes place in microgravity, zero gravity,

and I don't know if that's going to be for frequent occurrence that is going to develop its own specialty, but it can be used or not, and I was thinking about that too. Would it could mean a crime scene in zero gravity? The fasting spoke talk about with their blood and blood locked. It started dynamics going to be different, because you know you probably senior when you walk along after you ve catches up. You can see that the shape that lets patter haven't you can interpret those where you moving and review standing still standing still passing. Standing still dripping blood from their welcomes the floor. What it has done her round appears, whereas when you moving at him it has other children, appearance but asking to be different and in Micro, gravitons, zero gravity, and so I think this is an interesting size.

I began to evolve because of that. I have to say it is present view just realistic at ease and we talk about a no go colonizing distant planet. Nonetheless, here how realistic- as indeed we have accomplished in the age of sixty five or something like that beer supersonic travel available due to over again the very wealthy man, but is gone now and so realistically streams apologizing for planets. He, I think your arm tend to be a little on the sceptical side that any that is going to happen any time soon, but that should not prevent people from getting right for it either legally or automatically or the or the like little things, for example. as I understand it from movies I've seen if you die you're seated then blood collects in your butt and in your feet or something right cause. If you don't have this sort of acts, this vast joint action to keep blood circulating

and if you consider zero g, the blood doesn't collect anywhere. So a lot of cues. You would use judge how long a bodies been dead are not available to us. The fascinating thought at your DNS would be right and happy. People believe that the mood is there a gravity right, this doubt at all that and what itself. So, let me ask you this from our system ass from a forensic standpoint as one of the things that happens in spaces like a common death is like soup malfunction or something and the person freezes solid, because they're in space now could would you be able to do an autopsy on like if, if the person died, would you be able to do an autopsy

on a followed led by its assets inside you know, will be frozen bodies that trying to cheat into an iceberg? Didn't you not gonna get very far. So we have to do is all the more difficult as you for the body. The body begins to break them fairly rapidly because in space I think the news in the issues of designation the body drawing it up very quickly and precious paratrooper feelings about this than I do. However, where the bodies subjected than theirs a precious out at the back of the space and remove the vacuum in space side it'll be when it will be just like to say that it would be interesting that I've ever tat Every time I have to ask, I bet you know how often look my pegana with her with a forensic pathologist. Could you

explain exactly what rigour. Mortis is regional stiffening in the muscles that occurs after death, the muscle proteins, gradually kind of coagulated as they regulate this day stiff enough. The buses definite you first detected in the first place dejected is withdrew. Splash because you'd your findings of the masses, the rays and lower the hazard and your body to try their and keeping woman answered in the early stages really fast. And then you start to see. Leviticus blush at developing it is time the premises where we're just to be clear. Do you wanna first name basis with rigour mortal you call it rigour, Secondly, greater rigour, somebody, I'm not gonna, first, nay, bases uptore warm up tonight. But how do you do go on? Get you test the rigged by trying to bed joints,

them fairly. Small joints, like figure George, becomes the first because it takes a lot of muscles too, to stiffen the picture to the new joint, so intestine, the figures fast and we tested the tool and envy the that should observe the amount of rigour of its present in the body. You get some sort sense of home. This is indebted to get that degree of stiffness. there is something missing. The body temperature determined tat. The sun was a seizure time. They die pilot suggested it. Do it, ok, nothing other than the seizure and die raise the body temperature, the personal good it regards as fast as you do very carefully in seventeen times the status and the hardest things we do is that, besides this closer to an art, But so then I heard that rigour mortis eventually goes away. So what happened? Where does the muscle pronounced? Begins it to break down again and regards slackens now you're, starting to get onto onto the bodies beginning as well

big inspector cell agreed and feel rigour imposed by the six hours after there is generally thereby by twelve hours and those of about thirty. sounds all well. Ok, so that'll expression, there's someone here for we're dead bodies, a stiff, that's a temporary condition, insistence that the We need to get rid of me to use that expression. Would you do that should be surprised me very busy seat at the whole time are not alarmed was surprised and not as other intense emotion reaction is not enough as promotion reaction to it, and this is the death of a child also be tragic. Accidents, that's what I said in my cadaver winners eclipse. He just bodies are well that's very poor. equally correctly say, jonathan- I don't. I don't think I'll, be and- and

if they are, they gonna turn about this. It's just before we go to break. If a crime is committed in a distant place again, I'm thinking space here goes Patricia novel was in space. If some kind happens in space, Are you able to talk to someone through an investigation of a scene if bus they're just generally scientifically literate, but they have no medical background, such as what you have, and he talked him through it and then have them, submit a report on your behalf for having done so. I think I think I could tell him. What's it look like tell them tat the body in and want to check for, do that. you don't want to talk, has two says they could get fresh browser figures. I could see for myself. The jacket

so you could do this from the beach. While there appeared to think of something to see with your own eyes. National subsidies, autopsies eyes, have your own eyes looking at the body incidents omens, I have thought about it, look at tat rate array, And another thing I have one last crimes like I want: what is the temperature of the roof of the the slide things that you put the body and down in the more evident wondered what that does. We don't use this any more than that. How could not now bring them back in either the decisions have to be disposed of like it, you can clean the philosophers refrigerators because it disappeared, slighted and, I think said Fisher they begin to weaken their fins. Up to its orbit is just walk in fruit, refrigerated suck, you haven't been moving restaurant

the system of goodies freedom for translation, prepared its role, type Jimmy's meat, locker chartering. Aren't I meet our skies exactly what he said. How do you think I hope I do not like them. I look up we're gonna slab steer right here. We got Ernie early, didn't make it really take a quick break, but more on four into pathology. With two guests: Patricia Corn, Jonathan, he started. We back with medical examiner of New York City, Jonathan. What right before we took a break? You were about to tell a story because we're we're talking about meat lockers, yes I think, that's what you were describing.

one started. Bodies is a work in progress which is just very efficient way to handle this destiny that easy to dream about. Intensive. during the game was the ninety ladys into that ninety. Ninety, in my army suddenly homicides that they wanted to hold all the bodies in the mood for traders, and so they were forced to do is to let shocks, wretched, some measure to trust you saw them happy getting logo on the outside of this and will work we'll work it out, the bodies will be stored in Burger King refrigerator trainers. Apparently there such an outcry amongst the population, at that these, the agency got a large amount of money to them. This beautiful new state of the art facility, with appropriate bodies direction outside of it?

the tactical actually hold the pickle hold. The lessons and the dead guy said about anybody is a medical examined. His office is really a recent rapidly improving. It It is scandalous that truth, they tend to be very neglected. Let it be known was to talk about the new ones to funding I so intense jump forward, something terrible happens where it will have to ask in these meet lockers and in refrigerator trucks. How are the dead and stored, or the unmeet hooks like slabs of beef. Now, as in the other not be accepted, I am so disappointing is really be disillusioning for you perhaps not really. Look. I'm sorry, waiter views you. We rather just imagine the stuff took to ruin. It all would have access,

but I was there to Charles issues have expression to slay an ugly theory with a beautiful sleigh abuse Bulgaria monopoly back to the right. inside it made the set aside rate. I mean new bodies hanging on Beechwood syn, but you have to restore them horizontally right otherwise have had it won't work yet visited the sole, basically Bedstead, listen to them in the bodies of stolen of existence with it, as this is all very much very efficient and there are all sorts of assistance for mass stewardship bodies in the local agencies are prepared for mass fatality events, Well, so can I ask you this alone, Time ago I interviewed a police officer and he talked about a person who was murdered. and they found him in his apartment in New York City. The way they fell, Armed him is he late

through the ceiling you. So what would that be your wife? Yet my question is: what happened? If that's the case? Was this guy messing with me? No serious telling you the truth. What happens after there at the boy begins to break? This new immune system anymore, that White South die off the bacteria reached through the body and the back. Chirped use gas vehicles, the boy to blows the breakdown, the blood was its red and green trees, not discoloration as the pressure of the tissues bills. In view of the gases, the bodies wealth, the Bible, exude fluids as its tissue spectre, absolutely gold urge fluid, and that will spill out around the body and sometimes a little through itself through the ceiling Holly

wrap. This is not an attractive thing that sir that's terrible showed so the Soviet, the bloating that makes the body much less dense than at once. What because it's the same mass now occupying a bigger volume, this would then cause the body to float if it was Ed and at the bottom of any any in the river. So That's why you need cement boots right. That's exactly what I believe the result, and why is that? The water is the usual noted during the winter. It maybe a few months before the body developed enough gas from back to growth. That adoption, to close up the gypsy, maybe delay between some drowning in a sexy. Finding the bodies

This is the notion that spring comes in the weather. Moves up in the wars, attacks warms up. Then you get harvested bodies popping up to the surface itself. I got extreme yeah. We dealt with the parties that afloat intended to provide sometimes take their clothing traps and everything. swell share that occurs. Reject it to be very precise this because you you're breaking down this whole. whole evolution of a dead body, so so the rigour mortis that gives us the language where's the staff right. So we got that then you blow and then that makes you buoyant so that gets us the cement boots sort of crime right and ok- I just I'm just flushing up the full picture here, So this highly illuminating from fake daddy teddy. On top of this, the issue-

a view of industry use people like sucked out adopt telling on what meal just said. Could you commit the perfect murder. you didn't, kill, examine getting away yes, Jack, o, even leaving behind no evidence or no discernible cause of death were no I mean forget alibis, another kind of police work stuff just like they would I will be able to trace it back to you. Could you do that, so it put Jonathan together with that tv series? How do whatever to call? How do commit a providing get away to get away with murder how to get away there. It is the to them because they know what everybody's lookin for. Yes, Jonathan never see you having lunch with Viola. If their planning

where's, the star of bodies when somebody's going gas baby the STAR how to get away with murder so that, wouldn't that make you a price, suspect in a murder, withers, otherwise, no evidence good answer you just stop there, because anything. I think I think it's possible. It would be possible to get something without leaving any any clues. A trace, they'll get rough, but it wasn't. It is true. very hard to dispose of a dead body that the is getting getting rid of the body we had a case were a man murdered his wife and then he buried her in the basement and then for the next couple of weeks. He sat there watching ends repeats of CSI, then. Finally, events, the police station, says, look you're gonna get its lights out of it, my wife and a danger. The basement, why loud,

Why should I if I saw the crime, even though its agrees problems, because now for one of these conditions on the area, the terminator looked at the six different? Various cities is actually bring it back, but the jury's, the gas at a much higher of visual proof, They must move lammers, glamorous innovations and lights, trundle cutting edge sizes. As I said this in the border science fiction right am I CS. I wasn't just medical. There is also some. six involved in thermodynamics. Not in every episode, but they would bring in certain of that The physical science is when they related to the crime and the murder, so that there is scientifically illiterate people to see us, I had a traveling museum exhibit. Where

You would then solve your own crime, the kids acute exhibit. Will you go step by step and they give you clues in have to figure it out. So it was a big force on the television landscapes has very impressed to watch that unfold, but about the future of a pie he's gonna touch all of us in every way and has already happened in some professions, but Patricia thought about. and she was very impressed with what the future of a I might break. So, let's find out what tells us what's happening today is so amazing and the line between what's real and what isn't it? Assuming we even know the difference between the two mine, is getting blurry or and blurry her, and so, but basically, when you think of an elite or these devices that we have mentally everybody is you're, gonna have official intelligence assistance, even if

Even if you don't know you ve got it and and that's the thing, that's good and bad about it? Is that it we can't be without it it may we can't it managed as world, in my opinion, without artificial intelligence, especially think of air traffic control. when you have drones buzzing around and things like that or where would you just have some very important usage, asserting that the laxity of the world? We are building for ourselves may one day wire a just to navigated. Well, look at what happened with set with their mobile phones. I mean we ve created, leave many computers at people, really almost camp function without search so Jonathan is there, can you pick you're a day where I conducts the investigation and not you sit in the big because I didn't think it will ever be resolved things like an autopsy. No,

What is the same? Everybody has numerous different idiosyncrasies. A very soft little anatomic differences in structure and actually examining the body is a very complex things, as visually Ike, sometimes of accurate analysis, the feeling of putting your hands in examining the length of the moon, etc. long time if it is also that advocate a sensitive enough to be able to do that with the discrimination and human rights, Do that said when they do, I expected I have a slightly higher degree of accuracy. I think those lessons were observe a biased and but for a long time these robots will have to be overseen by a sudden human to see it. There where's my I will be useful prefix. I had a crime scene that that there is a thousand there's a million things going on in the crime scene. I think the big problems trying to decide what relevant to their trial

that's more resigned, but if you have a dead body lying in the sea, this plus bathroom that this could be a thousand tat, was gonna drop, its distribution of roles in the ceiling of the above and sometimes, and if you think at some point, the killer still with his knife. Mixing all carried the knife and a male left his own blood on all of the scene. How do you figure out, which of all those drops of blood a significant and which has recently said that Europe is not actually the victims blood? I think, with pattern, recognition and does the sort of thing that I think that a I'm down the road might be able to look like a dense information, feels look for patterns and find out the subtle exception that would escape the human eye Why do you think it's a long time and I long time to be able to rely on this result with them? It is not a discussion, forensic pathology about

doing an autopsy isn't just read or version that option is an examination of the body is in the teeth, ass, a city scanner and these the sweat of eighteen on this, and I feel that it can be replaced in Europe itself. They simply got up this, but I think a creeping they're moving towards virtual autopsies. Your legal dispute was not going to say you know, I'm not getting to sit back, that the bigger the wretched BT scam is accurate that its adoption will give a table Robin said meningitis listener. so I think there's going to be, it's gonna be a while before that sort of technology comes in a brazen, specifically a kind of controlling path. No, you sound like Chuck, because I said this shock. Is it no comedies complicated, for I, too take it off her children. I just want to make sure you don't like going into the absolutely Nowhere, there's no way they could tell a joke, not not

with all the nuances that a chameleon and by the way, if they ever do, you can rest assured a glass of water inside your circuitry is waiting. the first of the coming right. Let's call murder jerk, yes, but the boy design owners word robot aside over robot aside inanimate, that's that's it himself. The discussion here today for this, but I think you might think that density. Can you imagine a robot beat it trying to handle the hackler. You know the complexities, As you analysis of what was being said, Joseph probably obscure caution references if Europe silicone based, maybe she's right and then actually terms how to formulate a response. it's really good example. At the game just and ensuring task is completed ass. The turing test is so long as challenging them. as the report reminds me, there's a brief moment in the move

terminator, where he's he's repairing, injured arm in a hotel room in the Summer Knox, the door and he has to figure what was and to give him so you see this, you see, through his minds. I mean through his computer. I you see a multi its rights, is a guy away, I'm busy or come back later or do you we could see that chooses that rich, so good If your, if you have an arrived committee, and there's a heckler, they can decide whether they take their nice to the heckler or not that it's it's not a knob. Did you turn but- and you said something very important, which I am very sensitive to just in my own field, whip recognition, humans are good at it, but we can be very biased. If you take an unbiased pattern

recognising a it can for complex things. Just like you said that at the splatter pattern of blood or the pattern of both of us casing shall casings where they landed and how they might be to do a back extrapolation into where the gun was when it was fired and they could be some, interesting sort of three dimensional analysis. That day I could perform that we couldn't ass. It is No, I mean when I first started the New York NICE, Ninety, where this nightmare, from aside rate, we have six not as a day and still just had known. Going to investigate the cases that we be working off for the scene investigation? I didn't get the scenes, but we get there. the investigating detecting sharply like six or seven roads of the crime scene.

The resolution not ideally photograph, not ideally lit, and it just wasn't breaks, and then we are fast forward. You know for over thirty years, and you got in a video we ve got to high resolution. He became the first review of your Iphone taxes. Just amazing is really cool machine mad at you, you put it in the central rub, I'm just scans the entire debate later machine stands the entire arab and measures all the distances, and can we build a model of that role and that's fascinating technology. I think that's where things are going to use it and real estate market now, no one ever do something that has taken over a virtual through using this thing. The measure accurately dance the centimeter discriminating between what's real and what is unethical relevance is really a big problem and drastic says rotten things frustrates me. Am I see aside gang precedent, walk into the scene and pick up a single, fragmented, blasted, a whole futile busted.

Just as this is the problem, and that is the owner had just doesn't work sadly, but but if that were Sherlock Watson, the a r Watson, I would be able to do that they were Sherlock Watson, Sherlock whatsoever. gonna just be like this man's been dead for twelve Thou hast, eleven thousand authorities, twenty minutes right, thereby gap, rigour, rhythm, mortis right and you like rigour. Please know this mess I can tell them, has been dead, Sherlock Watson, ok, that's a good luck in the air, very good going. You bet. I you know enough available. Computers are still there,

In the end, I think for a very long time, and maybe ferrets dignity to humans decide offered them that there is. The problem was that the EU is still has an unbiased, just picked up down for a while and sagacity Watson sends another black man, the jail James Gang. it means, is time to end up Jonathan. It's great. Haven't you you're, the first forensic protect for thousands. I've ever had conversation with I am maybe it showed for better. But Have you been lighted? The forensic we gotta do something much better, this is a non overlapping then diagrams in my life, but whose dil, to have you want? I want to thank you for taking time away from your import, very important and busy schedule to join us. In my interview with Patricia Cornwall and delighted to hear

Do you have enough to novels out their precious blood and a hard death and I'd, we will look for them wherever books are sold. Of course, as a czech thanks for being here. As always, always a pleasure, always yacht and drove him. I think we're gonna try to find you again, because this is to this topic has no end. Doesn't it needs to do you feel about the future of the space colonies? Because that's me, I think, about a lot. In the last few months as we watch, the private had rises, taking little space, just curious equipment for you ready. if you bury someone on the moon, there are no micro organisms there to decompose the body. So the only organisers or the microbes at work in your body when you were buried, but there's nothing exterior too that so the whole decomposition arc will be different because of that good is not really soil, but that's that's! That's all you need that you will carry. This was important statistics about what the sensible body masses is accurate and as a significant portion,

I'll be in the I just I just look. I just looked at it. We have more bacterial cells in our Then we have body cells that that that's productivity, Every living thing there's going to be told them. This is against the water bacteria manufacture, like wolves, water, texted, germinate Jonathan delight to have your own thanks, In time out, Jack Jack always good to have you. This has been star forensic Pathology edition. Neil Degrasse ICE Ear, your personal.