Have you ever wondered whether New York City beggars are really better because of the water or why the mafia got it start in Sicily, lemon groves or if those dvd and few sensors actually do what they promised gas turbines is about gassed, exploring food through the lens of science in history. Each episode journeys into the weird and wonderful as we uncover everything you never knew about your paper Bu, I'm Cynthia Graver and I'm Nicolet Willie, and whether you are obsessed with food or someone who wants learn more about. What's on your play, we'd love for you to join us, listen and follow Gaster Bud on Apple or wherever you listen to TAT from CAFE. Welcome to stay too, I am preparing another american juveniles buy by filling the blank, has been a part of american history for a very long time

history has shown us that foreign policy is deeply tied to racial politics in the United States, My guests this week are viewed than wind and general want. When is the surprise, winning novelist of the sympathiser and its new sequel. The committed trace the story of north vietnamese spy at the end of the Vietnam. He is also the Arrow Arnold Chair of English and in English profess at the University of Southern California. Long political scientist and a professor of american and asian american studies at the University of Maryland, She is also a senior researcher at API Data, or she collects demographic data and policy research on Asian. Arrogance and Pacific Islanders her most recent book immigrants, even politics in an era of demographic change is in another, This is the relationship between demographic change and political alignment.

As violence against Asian Americans continues to rise by guests join me Wait to discuss childhood recollections of racism the danger of the model minority myth and why. Anti asian violence. Cyclical that's, coming up, stay tuned. It's time for some listener. Questions comes in a tweet from Melissa at Twitter handle short sigh. Forty four who writes I heard the lawyer for the prosecution today agree with the opposing councils. Objection to his question to the police chief, even before Judge ruled on it. Saying that's fair. Is that common, or is he just a similarly open and fair minded attorney hashtag ass pre. So that's it question walesa and I'm glad you asked it I'd say referring to testimony Ongoing trial of direct children whose accused of murdering George Floyd last year, and to believe the case, both on television and too often in real life when more

subject to other lawyers, doing things in court. There's a stranger, response. Typically, people wait for the judge to rule, but it is true that, on occasion, good professional, fair minded prosecutors and defence lawyers when they realized I ve been doing something that may be is not perfect, like asking leader, questions on direct examination, which is a no no they'll, conceited and better question and that's what happened here during the direct testimony of Minneapolis Police, chief, Arden and prosecutors, these litter but gun the pronunciation right was going to, questioning about how police officers meet members the community in the community sort of where they are, and he s a cup questions, one of which was this and as you can divide earlier, the police just don't get to meet people on their very best day to day and achieve response. And then he asked another longer. Question afterward Events, as you point out in your tweet objection. It's all leading at this point and the prosecutor says: that's there

Neither a few reasons. Why do that it turns around? If you look back at the questions, they were leading anytime the question that we had something like do they Isn't that right is not correct. Do you agree that to be characterizes, leading question which are not supposed to. On direct examination. You can do it on cross examination. And one reason why you might want to make the concession is your professional you going, stability with the court, the judge and most Fortunately, perhaps if you do that the time you can credibly with the jury. It's the right, professional, incredible thing to do. Also I would point out, there's a reason why, during the examination units do end shouldn't ask pointed leading since in rather open and questions, because an increase the credibility of the answer it though it is just agree with what the lawyer is saying: underrepresentation. It's almost you play words in the witnesses mouth so could call all around the question and a good practice in court, and we,

enough of it, last evening in this morning. I got a number of questions about breaking news from yesterday. About still, sitting representative MAC Gates here a couple of questions again this is from twitter users, Nab Huska, eighty four in references your time story? The gates was seeking a blanket pardon from Trump who's. This he didn't get it a secret pardon we would know till after gates is charged another question from twitter users: J Leash. I. Why was seeking blanket pardons for him and his congressional allies, so These questions are in response to a couple of things. First, the ongoing reporting of an investigation into various activities by Matt Gates Investigation which, by the way and importantly, appears to have started when trumpets President, bar was: u turn in general with his knowledge and approval. That's important and in the midst of reporting about allegation. Involving MAC Gates and under age girls.

And potentially the use of public funds in connection with sex trafficking and other conduct. That's been reported with respect to him, showing he owes and pictures of nude women on the floor of the House of Representatives to fellow colleagues in the midst of all that there was a scoop this Tuesday night from the New York Times with violence for Maggie Haven. In a couple of her colleagues, the reporting some precision the final weeks of the troubled administration representative, MAC Gates, sought from people at the White House now clear, both from the President himself but suggested to people the White House, the downturn, exercises broad pardon power to pay not only the people who had been seeking it before, and the people that we saw got pardons, but also a blanket pardon for in all potential crimes that MAC and maybe some other congressmen might have committed, which Bizarre thing. No one point:

He did seem to say this on television himself and I think people trotted up to markets being an over talker in various ways, but you don't seek a pardon preemptively in the final days of administration as you have some feeling that you ve been doing something wrong. What we know about the investigation, also importantly, is its. This made emanated from and certainly is focused on a gentleman, a local tax, official, the name of Joel Green Bird, who has been charged federally in Florida, with a number of counts including relating to sexual misconduct. Think there's a lot of things going on here, and none of it is good for markets number one job green, it seems either has flipped it's likely to flip counts, keep getting added to his indictment. When that happens, the potential sentence goes up and if your children, bird and your prison time potentially keeps going up, there is a particularly good and time tested way to help yourself

and ass, to provide substantial assistance to the prosecutors and what better way to substantial assistance to the prosecutors than to give them incriminating evidence, they sitting. Member of Congress and all the reports suggests that's what's happening here by the way? Folks? I say that about the prospect of investigating and prosecuting the city member of Congress. That's always gonna be important to prosecutors, because members of Congress and other elected officials hold positions of trust, and they have sought an oath to serve the public and to uphold the constitution and so when they commit crimes, including way, or abusing their power or wasted abusing public funds there were entrusted to them, campaign, funds or otherwise for an affair. Is an illegal activities that something prosecutors to graciously those research crimes and, as we discuss me, we're, on the show many times, cooperation usually involves providing in asian about someone who's further up in the food chain, so was more serious target and that would probably

the case with respect to markets. So that's bad for from decades. Everyone number two. It seems that you We will probably has a lot of ways to corroborate. What he's saying too, investigators about com with young women. The suggested varies: cash apps were used. The telephone calls were made. That money was drawn from ATM machines in a way that might be able to corroborate some of these activities. So the car, nation of children likely flipping his being able to went to data and records to corroborate what he sang and the kind of carelessness that we ve come to that from our gates, all in combination is bad for market. This back to the question about whether or not there might be a secret pardon of man that we don't know about you. I will for reasons that we discuss before with respect to a potential secret part four trump himself or members his family, it just seems very far fetched you believe, the reporting that says folks in the White House, kite kind of yes to their credit laughed off and is

the idea of a pre emptive, broad, weird pardon from decades when I mean that significant by the way in its own right. This is a white House and a president who enjoy in controversial, pardon after controversial pardon, including Michael Flynn. Roger Stone and other sources of his. But even this potential, preemptive pardon of MAC Gates was seen as a bridge too far, I think that even the craziness of Donald Trump and his own White House was not crazy enough to issue some bizarre amorphous blanket pardon to markets in advance and now a word from our sponsors. Well, it only happening the world is opening up again and were hearing the word normal being tossed around a lot more. But after the year we ve had truly feeling normal is going to take some time and a little bit of work,

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or even when you're just setting up the system. So there's always someone there. Who has your back to keep you safe and to make sure you feel safe. As my listen, you can save twenty percent on your simply saved security system and get. First month free when you sign up for interactive monitoring service, just visit, simply saved our com, slash priest to customize your system and start protecting your home and family today, again that simply saved outcome, slash preach joining me this week, are professors Viet than when engineer long after the marks in killing of six asian american women in Atlanta, the two professors and a joint are bad for the Washington Post. That outline how bipartisan rhetoric about GEO, political events from world war. Two two covert have historic That, despite in violence against Asians and Asian Americans the recent spate of violence. We discuss the cultural and political realities

being asian American in twenty twenty one. The attack when engineer long. Thank you so much for being on the show. I prayed thanks for having this. Thank you. I'm very excited to talk to both of you for a lot of reasons: people in the wake of the rising tide of violence against Asian Americans. You both penned this very compelling op, Ed together in the Washington Post, A couple weeks ago, called by partisan political rhetoric about Asia leads to anti asian violence here will get all that in a moment, and I know you folks, I've thought about these issues deeply and have lived these issues deeply, but before we get to the present day, so you go back to when we were all kids and think I'm older than both view. But not by lot I ask you what your memories are and experiences were children in America who happened to be asian and and if you remember moments,

where you were made to feel like you didn't belong here, told her go back to where you came from how you process that and had an forms. How you think about these issues now, maybe start with No, thank you so much where I grew up in you best City, California, which is one of the most diverse whirl places in the country, but it was highly segregate. And so I have very early memories of, for instance, my and my brother and I are going to a restaurant and it was and italian restaurant right outside my very rural town and we entered and we looked, at everybody and they looked at us. Probably in nineteen, Seventy nine and we just turned around and left. We could feel this outsider status, and so we left them

waste, and how did you feel that an end? Did you feel it, or did you understand it from your parents? I understood it myself, I was pretty well aware as being a chinese american kid in a place that wasn't completely white was white, it was seek indian and it was latin eggs and it was about a third of each of those Relations but some places were very white, and that was one of them and I just remember crossing over the threshold having everyone look at us. If this is a memory that is very powerful and then just my parents telling us let's go, and you know it really changed the it was a shocking thing to have my parents decided it didn't feel say. For us, and so we left view to a minimum in your situation is very different. You and on board the states you came, the states when you were five is the right one,

one is for, and- and I grew up in, San Jose, California, so few hours from genetic. But you know the much more but environment, and also very diverse group. In a city that was very multicultural with lot of vietnamese refugees, mexican immigrant, Mexican Americans and the White Working class. That was my neighborhood, but I did feel occasional twinges of this feeling outsider by the most important one was when my parents opened, perhaps it and vietnamese grocery store in San Jose California around eighteen, seventy eight, which is this was to do when you're refugee or never ran, recommend this country or in a pursue. The american dream it's kind of a shock for me around ten or eleven the age to walk down the street in downtown San Jose from my parents store and see a sign in a another store window. That said, another American driven out of business The Vietnamese, two younger, very process what that meant. But of course I would events we realise that that was a sign being targeted at my parents and the other. Vietnam is ready,

These were counters downtown San Jose, where no one else wanted to open any businesses and that this was a sign that was a story and other American driven out of business by filling the blank has been a part of american history for a very long time. In another way in which I felt my exclusion was not face to face, but through popular culture. Now of a refugee from the Vietnam WAR and Nike seventies. Nineteen eighties are a lot of Hollywood movies about the Vietnam WAR, and I watched the lot of them now move like Rambo Apocalypse, now and put and so on, and I Rapidly realised that this way that high would perch a vietnamese people was the way that most America, probably saw people like us, which is that we were these faceless victims and if we had, the chance to say anything, was usually the scream ever being killed. Or does I thank you for being rescued in it.

That representation of vietnamese people really really affected me. And gave me the sense that we were alien in this country and the only way we were known here was through this really warped representation of the war your sentiment of confusion, who you were now get the question, because I would tell people I was indian and they ask me things. Kids would ask me: things, idea, live in a teepee and they would make sounds if they thought native Americans make wasn't necessarily hateful, but at some point I think people begin We have deliberately they knew who I was and where I was from, but to do that anyway, and in the other things I haven't found enough. This happen to you. Folks were summoned Surprise that me My family did thing the ordinary Americans did, including that I spoke English well even my case. Came to the states when I was a year old and basically which is my native language and even into ten years in my twenty people would say: oh that's interesting, name pre. Where are you from

I would say from India I'm no twenty five euro lawyer practice, a firm and remember some? Sometimes people with that's amazing. You have no access at all. Well, that's because I've been here for twenty four years. Any experiences like that certain when I was growing up in school were kids? Who would do the the I'd sign at me a couple of times, and they would ask me things like: did you carrying a cave for serving in the Vietnam WAR, because what they knew about someone like me and a more obnoxious things like that, something that there was deafening part of of the landscape, and you know my background is kind of some thirty years in the sense that I was completely fluent in English, by the time I could remember seven, eight years old love nurture wanted to be a writer became anymore professor stuffing irony The vietnamese refugee would end up being added,

professor, so I know that I am proud of that, because I think it is, it does affect people's perceptions of vietnamese people, but certainly in what you experience was part of my. Once that English was not supposed to be. My language and literature with us both be something that we as Vietnamese or its agents did say death. I felt that I was trying to knock down some barriers of peace. Option there among Americans as a whole, but also among the enemies, people who also didn't think that maybe these people should be doing English littered you're supposed to be doing math. What happened Haven't science yeah, my god, I was failed, a p calculus or I almost feel Calculus, which you have been in, still humiliation and what would happen to you in math and science? Well, some of what you're saying create really resonate with me. I might on my dad side my grandparents image, did and my mom side my grandparents grandparents emigrated to the U S, and so, but I still have been asked, of course,

where I am from. I was a chinese kid in a place that was where most of the Asian Americans were south asian growing up, and I just saw so much. Racism and prejudice in this small rural town and that is one of the largest seek populations in the country. But, of course, in a most of the white residents referred to the group is here? and there was just tremendous rate Isn't there there was a lot of teasing enters the high precision nation of this of the farming community. I was most basic Indian, but then fast forward to the present much of what you're saying still resonates. I just completed a survey with my colleague Carthage, I'm a cushion in a right after the Atlanta shootings, and we found that sixty four percent of Asian Americans said that people had

ask them where they were from assuming they were not from the. U S similar proportions. That they had been assumed, not to speak English, even though the whole survey was done in English, so they were obviously competent in English, and so these these kinds of assumptions about Asia Americans continue to be part of the cultural landscape and we can see that they affect all asian Americans, not just people who are like me, Chinese, for instance, you know its initiative question that it does it offend you if someone asks in good faith, because they're interested and they want unaware your families from originally your way you hail from, and can you tell when people are asking it in an ignorant way, do you follow the difference conversation about people's backgrounds and whether you your Irish, or russian or chinese or Indian, I find that to be all wonderful and terrific and to be celebrated, but

during something different right. I think it taps into something that at night wrote about, and yet more recently just wrote about in areas article in the guardian, and is this really long standing assumption about foreignness that is applied to Asians, in particular in the? U S, and so yes, when people ask about you know our personal background. I think that is good in fine, but there is a. U can feel is sometimes a certain turn where I think, a very long standing assumption about not belonging about being foreign is tapped into by that question, and so it is confusing because the majority of asian american adults are for

the United States? And yet there is also this kind of longer history of assumed, foreignness that plays into all sorts of other kinds of stereotypes and can really cause harm in the. U S, work and in my case I was born in Vietnam. So when people ask me where I am from my, I can honestly say I'm from another country, but I do you know, obviously understand, generals point that that the assumption of foreigners and can be deeply problematic, but I think that Let me point out here, of course, is at the asian american response to these two. This perception, foreignness has often been asked now two assertively claim our marriage An identity and our american belonging there's been a deep impulse. And asian american culture for for decades, and it's very understandable. But there are some complications with doing that. I think a lot of Asian America's. Don't fully realise that if we play American identity in American belong it. We claim all of it, which me

that we also claim some very complicated histories in terms of American negotiation of this country and american wars in foreign countries again often directed, at Asia or asian countries, which is often have the very reason that we ended up here in the United States, so very complicated this dynamic between foreignness and belonging, This concept of asian American is interesting to me because when I was growing up it- and maybe this is a false memory- I don't remember a lot of people using the term asian American and we we our family grew up in New Jersey. We thought of ourselves as indian indian American? They were Crean American, they were. Chinese, Americans are beaten, amuse Americans. What is it? What does it mean to be asian american? You referred a moment ago to asian american culture. What is that, given different countries are given much rivalry. There has been and war between various asian countries and how to vary. The cultures have evolved. Other things. What does it mean aviation Americans at that's, only a thing that occurs here,

I'd states right yeah, I think so. I think people in Asia dont, really generally go round calling themselves Asians. In most cases, they refer to themselves by nationality, right, ethnicity, religion and so on. As you mentioned in Germany, when I was growing up in San Jose, the vietnamese people called themselves Vietnamese we were not even Vietnamese Americans and so whenever they said whenever we set Americans, we met someone else. Besides us and I felt great feeling: well, I'm an American. So I had I had an accident conversation that motor wrote and so I didn't hear of the term asian American until I got to college at you see Berkeley, certainly when we were in high school. I went to this very elite white high school in San Jose and there is the risk us we're evasion descent, but we knew we were different what color self. So every day at lunch, we gather in a corner of the cap, as we call ourselves, the asian invasion. We also let us we had better do acknowledging that we had something returning about music is like with, like the British. I wish we were, we were told nerds do so, can you been denied cool, but

We knew we were had something in common. At the same time, the japanese chinese korean vietnamese Filipino Americans, but it wasn't until knowledge and remember taking asian american studies, prices that I heard of it idea for the very first time and start again, of a nation american and felt like I was coming home. They understood something about myself in this country and I think you're right, It's a relatively new phenomenon of term was coined the nineteen sixty eight in California, by students at the easy campuses, and I think, a second decade for it to really gain mass cultural momentum and used he's a vanguard identity. But maybe general can talk more about this, but you know now, I think, within a new generation American born second generation were, I think, we're going to see an Asian Americans. He's Agnes take funds stage. I'll never ever heard anybody refer themselves as European American for We're South american, American right

and I wonder now, as if part of this and you'll know better. You, too, if part of this, as a result of their being such some communities at least some years ago. At each particular asian country background, so the small number of the enemy is relatively small number of korean chinese Indian, and there is a reason politically perhaps too, to join together and to have a common label. It doesn't have anything to do with it would definitely what we ve seen in research is that it is a politically constructed category and so it has kind of emotional residence. I think for the air and for myself, because we ve devoted our lives to thinking this category, and there is some kind of emotional connection to at least for me with this category, because it is so politically meaningful to me, but I think you're, absolutely right that you know we're in

this democracy numbers or power, and it was a way to ban together to increase political power when you think about what holds the asian american Community together. It is in large part to experiences that is immigration, because the immigration has so profoundly shaped the community and then it at all. It is also shared experiences with the very kind of reason, discrimination that we have talked about. There are two, I think interesting findings related to Asian American. I envy the first is one that you both have mentioned, which is that the second generation is much more likely to adopt at the pan ethnic label than those who are first generation. So we see that, among those born in the United States there more likely, regardless of whether their pagan in Asia, America's that he's cause or not to describe themselves in

pan ethnic terms, but the second finding, I think, really does show the constructed and contested nature of economic and identity, and that is that some groups are considered by other Asian Americans more asian American than other. So, as some research we ve done shows that, for instance, agents- those are India Bangladeshi Pakistani, have a very a degree of asian american identity. They identify it as Asian American as the same levels as other Asian Americans from EAST Asia or South EAST Asia, but EAST Asian do not consider I was ancient to be as likely to be asian American as they consider east agents through you to this concept, the other you mentioned a few minutes ago, which was the assertion of American this and what that means? I I do that. I think it could

important. For me how I identify how I think about myself how patriotic I am lemons, different things to different people than I'm an American, but also very proud of my indian heritage. I like indian music. I like allotted, the introductions. I like indian food goodness. What would you do that? Indian food and this whole concept of the melting pot and assimilation? How do you think is american, view of assimilation. If you want to use that word, there probably better words. How do people think about that? What what is the proper balance for people who come to this country from other places of adopt in that the traditions Habits of America verses, maintaining some produced from the motherland and then finally How does it plan to this issue of violence and bias against Asian Americans? I think we have to look. About asian american identity in two dimensions, which has one is culture, and one is Paul, so the overlap with are not the same thing for a lot of asian Americans when they talk?

becoming american and they need to talk about what you do talked about which, as you know, what what do we contribute to the United States in our great food or are great commitment education, these these kinds of things we talk about culture That's where the assimilation issue must PAMELA comes up. This idea that the other countries and melting pot or its multicultural and all these different traditions from different places can be brought here and blended and that America, America, can absorb all of these different kinds of populations, and that's it powerful way of understanding is american culture, which is why the second generation level, I think we see a great celebration of people consuming things across different boundaries like let's have korean tacos or have Buber T, even if we're not taiwanese other Spanish, not, but I love that this fantastic. We all take pride in korean pop culture and all this others fabulous now. This runs into. Attention, though, with asian american politics, because at a different issue, a mediation work and politics is built out of a sense of cultural meshing and cohesion

and greater strength in numbers as general said, but there is attention there because the earth, the origins of the asian American Movement, and then I can sixties is much more radical than what many people remember. I mean the origins of asian american Movement were not just I racist, but also anti imperialist, Anti war, Anti capitalist and oftentimes pro marxist, and if you take those politics to their logical conclusion today, see that some versions of asian american politics are not just about assimilation and becoming a part of the United States, but about contesting the very origin of the United States in violence? And isation in genocide, and this speaks directly to, I think, the very heart of the problem in american politics today. With this, how we can go from a present Obama to a president Trump, you know Mama for me represents this idea of assimilation and blending. Multiculturalism trump seems the rubber,

the assertion of a more white nationalist strand of identity, which is also fundamental to the United States. An asian Americans are caught right in the middle of that tension, and that's that's also where were caught right now with a quick anti asian violence. One set of responses to to enter asian bonuses to assert our belonging to this country that we're Americans you're, not gonna, kick us out. We're gonna die and ourselves as Americans and another reason, ass if to say- and I even violence is absolutely fundamental to the United States, because the United States has been violent towards every single racial iced population in its history, Tell what you think about, I I couldn't agree more and I think the asian american community is really a kind of crossroads right now we see greater attention. Greater report of an asian bias, and I think that is important because it is such a law history: in the: U S. At the same time, I think that Asian Americans can either

only about themselves and the kinds of experience at highlighted in the news right now, or the deeper connections with this history of waste supremacy in the United States and the on going kinds of despair he's racial disparities. We see in current day. So yes, asian Americans are reporting about the same level of hate times in twenty twenty one as other groups, but, prior to this year, black Americans faced much more real violence, much more reporting of hate crimes, sometimes ten times It's more than Asian Americans, just in twenty nineteen, for instance, and if we do a deeper dive into the data we see, both

trends. We see that Asia Americans are facing a forever foreigner stereotype that manifest in the ways that we talked about people thinking or not from this country. You dont speak English, but they are not facing the kinds of structural racism that some other groups are facing it with regard to, for instance, policing black people are much more likely to report police abuse and misconduct. Education. Black people are much more likely to report that a teacher or a cancer has unfairly told them to discontinue their education, and we see it all in many areas of life. A kind of overlay of racism that affects us all so in the workplace, blacks are less likely to be promoted than Asian Americans. Asia. Americans are reporting about the same level of discrimination in the workplace as White American

in some cases or when we get to housing and neighbourhoods, we see that real terms are much more likely to steer black. Their people of color away from certain neighbour and that is not evident in the on Asian Americans now. Pacific islanders are a group that is closely connected to Asia, Americans, where we see the very high levels of discrimination, but even when we disaggregate the asian american population to include those groups that have faced higher levels of barriers to education, like vietnamese Cambodians, we still see that those levels of experience with, let's say, being racial ized by teachers to not continue their education are still lower than for other groups, will be right back to the interview after this

Hey there, this is free, and I want to let you know that I'm just hosting this tuesdays episode of the pivot podcast belong with carrots. Wisher pivot is another great show from the box. Media pack has network covering all things tack and business join us as we cover the weeks top stories, maybe have a friendly debate or to an interview, former lieutenant Colonel Alexander, Vincent, listen and follow pivot on Apple Spotify or wherever, listen to podcast. I want to start talking about the violence we seen recently, but also put it in contacts with one of the things that you wrote in your bed. There was very striking to me was that violence against Asian Americans and discrimination against Asian Americans has been. This is your word cyclical. You don't hear that when you talk about gender discrimination or discrimination against black Americans, that has been a persistent,

hang, maybe an absent flows a little bit, but this idea of a biased being cyclical and what you mean by that and give some context for it will. I think that we look at american history and and specifically on the question of yet I asian violence. We see that it spikes over them. I'm calling from LOS Angeles here and in eighteen. Seventy one. Nineteen Chinese, men and boys were were murdered. A mob of several hundred in downtown, and that promote an incident. That's been, I think, largely forgotten in american history, but I was also very fairly typical of the chinese experience in the western United States in the in the nineteenth century and then the these would have been brought in as cheap labour there, their use their usefulness expired so than they were targeted by this basis, rhetoric that stirred up anti chinese feeling and culminated in the chinese Exclusion ACT of eighteen. Eighty two: in the light of the page act of eighteen, seventy five directed against with chinese women and that

should have solved the problem, but then further Populations were brought in as cheap labour, Filipinos, Japanese and then its fought wars in asian countries, from Japan, Korea to Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, so different asian populations came in a different periods in american history and each of them faced yet each and violence I think it's it's cyclical. Every new population that comes in encounters a new level of a fear and scepticism and that all story that I mentioned earlier, and other American driven out of business by filling the blank is applied to them. So there's a man racial celebration class tensions that takes place that targets these new asian american populations and the other major marker in asian american history that account for this ebb and flow, or these spikes is the creation of the

an american model minority in nineteen sixty six. This is an actual term that than a news would be Porter came up with and has been stuck with Asian Americans ever since, and I think that in the last few decades that seems to me, I've for the dominant perception perception, evasion, Americans, Americans, maybe dating since the murder of Vincent Chin in nineteen. Eighty two there was one of the last major ETA asian violence that most asian Americans could recall, and then, after that Asian Americans were perceived as being the ones who were getting into Harvard and being the great students and all about him. Asian Americans were loaded. The sense of complacency set out now

when we face new spike orientation violence. It catches a lot of people by surprise. But to me it's feels Monica repetition of previous patterns in american history. What I like to say that the EP has written, poignantly too, about the in another trigger for and asian sentiment is always wore an U S, aggression abroad, and when the? U S, experience is anxieties over foreign policy. We see that asia- Americans are often target it. So after nine, eleven South Asians and those prison seemed to be Muslim were targeted with islamic phobic racist attacks, and we saw in O Creek was content

stance that again, you know, white supremacist was targeting a south asian sick Temple, and so this is one thing I really appreciate about. Real work is just bringing a more direct understanding of how foreign policy quickly becomes so rationalized in the EU Can we paused in his idea the model, but the model minority for a moment, and there are people who will say: that's not so much a thing. Plain about what's wrong with people assuming that you're smart and your studious and you're gonna do well and giving it the benefit of the doubt or is there something about the soft bigotry of high expectations to change? A phrase? Explain what is that's! That's bad about that for Asian Americans, in my view, there

two problems. The first is that the model minority is a direct line to and thy blackness, and so you see that people who hold those this is a recent research from Jerry Park in his his colleagues shows that among white people is this was of students who believe that Asian Americans are super competent when it comes to education and other skills that those same people are the ones most likely believed that black and white next people are criminals, or lazy. So there's a there's, a direct relationship. This also turned out to be the case for Asian Americans asian American to internalize the model. Minority stereotype are also the most likely to exhibit and thy black attitudes, and this is no surprise because

The emergence of the motto minority stereotype was in part a stereotyped that was used to discipline lack Americans who, at the time in the nineteen sixties, were agitating for basic civil rights, and it was a way to say look at this group that is successful. Without political agitation and the other problem with the motto minority stereotype is that it does cover over vast inequalities within Asian America, and so there are groups within the asian american population and within particular national origin groups that faced tremendous barriers to acquiring education to achieving economic stability and those stories really get lost with the tenacious power of the motto. My

stereotype. One more thing I like that is that its stereotypes and although the positive stereotype would you, but you can construe as something good positive stereotypes, always come negative stereotypes are two sides of the same coin and I think it Minority population in this country is subjected to its own version of the positive and negative stereotypes, and so for us, Americans. The positive, it is being the motto minority and the negative part right to be applied to us in any case any moment of crisis, whether its domestic economic crisis or whether it attached to a foreign war, he negative stereotypes is the yellow peril or whatever color you wanna put on this. So when my parents, their grocery store in downtown San Jose. They were fulfilling the positive stereotype, but the negative stereotype, was ready to be applied to them as the economic asian threat to white business people in downtown San Jose, the very appearance of the motto minority. In this news report in nineteen sixty six was built specific

around japanese Americans in the and the river it was marvelling at how, in the nineteen forties, Japanese Americans had sent to internet camps, and yet here we are twenty, so years later, and they Let me turn things around and become this model minority in the sense that you now is talking about and that spending of the Wayne around the japanese american experience around what happened. My parents is exactly still what's happening today should be very careful. Our people apply these stereotypes to us saying: oh, yes, Good neighbour or you're, such a bit, classmate and so on and so forth, because lurking right around the corner is the possibility that we would become too good to threatening to competitive and therefore to dangerous and that's not to say that there aren't advance

just that do attend the stereotype. So we know that there is a concept of stereotyped promise where, for instance, teachers they look their students and for Asia american students there actually more likely to assume that they are smart, incompetent and that leads to all kinds of benefits like getting tracked into higher level courses, more rigorous courses and that kind of attention can actually lead to increases in standardized testing among Asian Americans, and so it's not to say that there aren't advantages to the motto minority stereotyped that most Asia Americans do benefit from it. Way that no other non white group experiences. I will talk about this other dynamic that you folks address and a lot of people dressing and that is

the policy of the United States, both policy and rhetoric of the United States, most typified by the former president in attacking China. Now it happens to be the case that we have that's good policy, and we have foreign trade policy and time and time there are countries like China who do pose a threat to the american economy. Our competitors of ours, literally and otherwise, My question is you deal with the issue of American events and diplomats and business people doing their job. Calling out other countries in recent times, China for bad practices. It cleaning, civil rights abuses, human rights abuses without com, in bigots in United States to use it. An excuse to think bad things, and do bad things and engage in violence against people who are far removed from that country but are from that country, is, is not just a feature of

life and the exempted quickly. The example that I have been thinking about the last few days in preparing for this interview does, I think, back to when I was ten eleven twelve years old It was a very difficult thing in this country to be iranian back then, because all the rhetoric from pundits journalists, the president about Iran were very negative because we were going to the hostage crisis and I remember as a young kid with parents and uncles. Who sometimes were mistaken for being iranian finding it very peculiar thing. How do you deal with it? And it happens in other times in our history as well. I think, when you certainly have a president as a former one did who says things like China via in conclusion of a deliberate provocation of anti chinese feeling and argue. That was also serving to distract Americans from domestic issue happening within the United States. So there is a connection between stoking xenophobia directed at some extra.

Wish you and also trying to distract from internal issues as well. And so obviously, in those kinds of moments. The the connection between foreign policy and domestic racism is very clear It can be very pronounced in those the end, and I think that's that's, we fear. That probably is we would agree what is stolen, his particular vines, but, but I think, but its it sounds like you're thesis is broader than that right The question would be like, for example, under administrations weathers. Clearly, more awareness of these questions of domestic difference, is in the necessity not to Stoke Races feeling, which is certainly the case. Audibly under the Obama Biden administrations you have much more awareness of this is still a correlation were made, an accusation between them more muted, a policy that is still aggressive towards China, for example, but which does not try to connect it to stoking races, feelings within the United States, anything from it does seem to be some Coralie that I think, is very hard not to crew. Create,

an image of a country as aid with specialised kind of threat. A very heightened kind of danger give in the way that Reese operates, now to states, given the deeply held notions by many Americans at Asians, are foreigners and outside or is that people would not? Some people would not make that connection between a foreign, economic competitor and the dangers posed by people who looked like that, for economic competitor. And so yes, I think China is obviously major economic competition for the United States. I think China does engage some very problematic tactics when it comes to economic competition. Yes, I think that China does engage in severe human rights abuses in changing in Tibet in Hong Kong. The question is: are these tactics and are these human rights abuses worse than other countries, some cases. Yes, in some cases. No, so one of the examples I think you know, and I brought up- was- and we face major economic poverty.

As well from the European Union. We dont stoke that same kind of direct around the European Union, and we don't have a particular this legacy towards European Americans, as you implied earlier so the dirt there are some because most Americans most worth that's a lot of american nearby Genetic can amplify, annulled the on these kinds of issues, but, as is its difficult, I think to extricate our stances from China towards this. Wide reservoir feelings about Asians in this country? Just so, you know, I think this received a lot of attention when we kind of throughout that we need to be cautious about how we talk about asian countries and asian foreign policy, because they're always has been a backlash, and that's not to say that we should not condemn China for its human

its abuses- it's not to say that it is not a source of competition. It may even be a unique source of competition, but in doing so we need to we call as history has shown us that foreign policy is deeply tied to racial politics in the United states. So when the? U S holds up Russia, as an adversary, since in the United States, do not feel the backlash that all agents will rebound

subject whether there from China when China is held up as an adversary, and I don't think we are trying to defend China's policies at all. I think we are trying to say we need to invest more in helping people to understand here in the United States. What this raises legacy has been how it is triggered by foreign policy rhetoric, and to help people understand through ethnic studies through understanding this long history of asian bias in the: U S that there are consequences, deep consequences for bill ionizing country in Asia that we don't see when other countries are colonized. Robot is a function of the politicians, rhetoric or just Glee laden racism on the part of a lot of Americans, because

Are you back and during the cold war, you known up too much waiter degree than now. Mrs. This is nothing is like ping pong or badminton compared to the way politicians, and presidents talked about Russia during the cold war. But Russians tend to be white and Asians tend to look different to how much of this is underlined racism. I think we would both agree with you in it is underlying racism, but that racism cannot be separated from the ways in which people talk about foreign policy. So there is a way of talking about our relationship with China that condemns China for its human rights abuses that condemns China for its economic malfeasance, and that condemns China for its acts. But not dehumanize. The p

in China or the people here in the United States or Asian American. I think it is very difficult because it is such a script that I think we are encouraging people to think twice before they engage in the kind of rhetoric that, for instance, President Trump used that work. Immediately dehumanizing, just two things about the abiding administration stance on China one positive in one potentially negative. We think we know one. It is about the Biden stance. Is that part of the way that the term racist feeling gets stoked in the United States is the way that is tied to economic crisis? So now The economic crisis within the United States and people feel and economic pressure, it's easy to target of foreign population abroad or erase supplies. Patient domestically. Is there the pause of our problems, and so The bite administrations in Nepal.

Please now in terms of trying to amplify domestic spending and increasing investment in infrastructure and people, and so on. I think that's a very strong positive. I mean we. We should take the sign of economic competition from China to be healthy one where we should then look at ourselves and how we conduct our own economic policy and human policy within the United States. China make Microsoft, astronomer country in that sense, so that's great. The other dimension of the binding policy on China, that reiterate Trump and abolished answers as while is positing China as a military threat. Number America's number one military threat at this at this moment in time now, that's ethical. More argue born in there. Certainly other voices at say where were over, stressing the dangers that China poses as a military power, where use it they use in China as an excuse to continue spending enormous amounts of money on the Pentagon, part of which is extremely wasteful. And so this

who's back to other issues in terms of America's image of itself as a not just a global power, but as the sole global power after the cold after the end of the cold war? And here I think it would work on my Democrats or Republicans. There seems to be some sense of unity on the foreign policy stance towards China as the pre eminent threat that helps to motivate what the United States does, and what did I say, and militarily. Obviously, one of the reasons I want you to be on the show was to talk about the violence in Atlanta and the murder of, among others, taxation american women there, I was its important, have a context and talk about Asian Americans in politics and all the things we ve been talking about But there have been some suggestions, including from law enforcement in Atlanta, the people she jumped to the conclusion that those killings happened. For reasons of racial animists or national origin, Animus Cornelis out a fair point or not. While I think there is no quest

in that the at least in my mind that the killings they were racially motivated that they were motivated by gender and that to me, regardless of how one categorizes it legally, the. Mission of those asian american women was a function of their race engender. The access of the killer to those places of work was also a function of race and gender and I don't think we can easily separate the motivations, the circumstances of the victims from the occurrence of that day, You know, I think what we are seeing. There is an restoration of the ways in which women and men in Asia. America are do experience race. Very differently in certain aspects at women,

Labour sexual is that women might be in Annabelle economic position that put them on the front lines that day so in my mind. There's not a lot of value in pursuing the legal terms. But I think it's obvious to most people that this was a crime that way is in many ways shaped by the gendered interracial position of everyone involved, What does it matter to the link to the analysis? The at that? regardless of how you parts out the motivations, and maybe there are multiple motivations right, and maybe this person was a bit troubled but the reaction in the asian American Community myself couldn't you folks included was to feel like you're are punished in the stomach and You see that time and time again, with these surveillance videos capturing, for example, the sixty five year old woman walking to church in Midtown Manhattan being kicked off the ground

and stopped in the head multiple times with the door, men in the luxury kind of building, not not doing anything but shutting the door. What weight is to be placed on how the community feels about an action as opposed to we pass out the particular nations of the perpetrator I think a lot of asian Americans were felt that they were being gaslight by this response on the part of the FBI. Director, Christopher, raise said and he's taking his cue from the local police officials in Atlanta that this was not a racially motivated shooting and, of course, all of us felt by the most. Many of us felt that certainly was an impasse because what you know said, which is that inexpensive, many asian Americans it impossible to separate questions of racism from sexes, and that these things happen, simultaneous and that when we assert our analysis of this, when we draw up on everything that we ve been talking about for the past hour in terms of in american history. In the end, the structural problems the indonesian violence in this country and the fact that Asian Americans have been

raising the alarm about the rising tide of anti asian violence in this country, ever since the beginning of the pandemic and then to hear from law authorities that we just can't be certain that race played a factor it feels like are lived experience. Art are live knowledge and our historical knowledge of our situation has been completely disregarded and think that One of the reasons why I think many of us felt that something horrifying was going to becoming during the past twelve months or so and of course, our worst fears were realised in at land. And then the episode that you're talking about when the Filipino amid Filipino was stopped so badly that are pelvis was fractured and people just ignored this. It felt simply the final punctuation mark in this really horrifying history. The last few weeks. But at the same time I will also say that there is a difference between past episodes of anti asian violence, and the contemporary moment is that we have set

established community organisations on the ground who have been doing work in the community prior to these incidents. Who continue to do it now and then are really trying to shape a productive narrative and responds to this violence. So, for instance, there really trying to push a an agenda that doesn't lead to increased and over a policing. And so these are, I think, important kinds of nuances. There were seeing in this this particular moment. We then went, you know one thank you so much for joining me and and thanks for all your thoughtful analysis and writing about these issues, thanks so much for having a spree having us My conversation with professors win and long continues for members of the catholic insider community to try out the membership free for two weeks at the Capitol come slash. Insider

again, that's capita come slash, insider Slovakia will end the show this week to talk a little bit about the controversy relating to major league baseball and a decision of the league to remove the Ulster game from Georgia. The controversy over the Georgia today his nature, making voting more difficult and more restrictive after republic, and suffered significant losses in the last election, and there's a lot of debate about whether or not We should have done that whether or not it harms average Georgians, whether or not ports, leagues, incorporation generally, for that matter should be involved in a particular way in politics, they stay out of it should they not and went in.

That comes to mind relies on a particular now pretty much forgotten. I think historical precedent and last Sunday April, fourth, which was Easter, which millions of people celebrated and observed, also and to be the sad and tragic. Fifty third anniversary of the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr and for him on Sunday evening. Twitter, which is Finally, a terrain of toxicity and silliness, was for a moment as it sometimes can be, a source of historical wisdom an MSNBC journalist, olive Elsie, reminded us of a story from the past during the time of Martin Luther King Jr, and I want to share it with in all events, you reminded us of nineteen sixty four Atlanta. And then Coca COLA C, O J, Paul Austin fought to get more the King Jr recognition he deserved from the business community in Atlanta. In the wake of his winning the Nobel Prize, I'm just gonna red thread: the veil. She posted

quote fifty three years ago today. Martin, King Jr was shot by a white racist ass. He stood on the sector or balcony outside his motel room in Memphis Tennessee kings dream that all people be judged by the content of their character. And not by the color of their skin, is a fight that continues today and was there Susan king received the Nobel Peace Prize just three years earlier. He was seller, with high honors in New York City, the reset in his home town Atlanta, however, was a different story. Nineteen, thirty four Atlanta was still a self segregated city. So please, for an interracial dinner honouring king were not well supported by the city's top business leaders, tickets warrant selling. New times. Even wrote a story about it, which can some in Atlanta then, CEO of Coca COLA, Jane Paul Austin, did something about it. Austin you first hand would apartheid, had done to South Africa's economy and was determined in Atlanta not follow suit the mayor of Atlantis summoned the city's elite business leaders to the aid,

in Floor dining room of the Commerce club, where its reported Austin spoke bluntly, saying quote: it is embarrassing for Coca COLA to be located in a city that refuse to honour its Nobel Prize winner, we're an international business, the Coca COLA Company. Does not need Atlanta, you only to decide whether Atlantic needs. The Coca COLA Company end quote there were no cries of cancel culture after that. No, why about. Lies were left wing ideology the ceo of an international company. So it city on the wrong side of history and acted today, corporate world is once again taking action Major businesses are condemning restrictive voting laws being pushed by republicans at state level. On Friday may, league baseball announced that the austere again will be moved out of Atlanta because of the states knew Publican voter restrictions Publican governor was outraged by the decision blaming Lib, cancel culture, its not cancel culture.

To respond to democracy, weakening legislation. Stopping people from voting is cancelled culture and once again, Coca COLA, along with other major corporations based in Georgia, have been called on to do. The right thing in an historic, open letter. Seven two black executives called on all corporations no matter their location to oppose. These voting restrictions. This is happy. Because of activists to care about protecting the right to vote activists. Press Georgia based businesses to publicly oppose voting restrictions. For weeks before they were signed into law, and then they called on people to boycott those same companies when they fail to speak out, it didn't take long for those companies to change their minds. The question now is: publicans. Making these laws do the same. That's quite a thread by early velvety. I think there's a lot of food for thought about what before and what is happening now and how history will judge all of us. If you want to learn more, you might want up the memoir.

Former Atlanta mayor Andrew Young, who talks about this issue in his autobiography It's called an easy burden: the civil rights movement and the tree formation of America published in ninety ninety six to the right. Martin Luther King Jr. May you continue to rest in peace and could, as to everyone from corporate executives like J, Paul Austin to the young activists, who speak out about unjust laws and institutions well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks to my guests. The then, when engineer, one If you like what we do rate and review the show, an apple podcast or wherever you listen Positive review helps newly there's find the show, sent me questions about news, politics and justice. Tweet them to me.

Treat Ferrara with the hashtag ask pre or call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty eight that's six, nine to four preach or You can send an email to stay tuned, cafe dotcom state, and is presented by CAFE studios your host is preparing the executive producer is tomorrow. The senior producer is Adam Waller. The technical director is David TAT ashore. And the cafe team is Matthew. Billy, David curl Andor, San Jose No, it s a lie: not Wiener Jig Kaplan, Jennifer, corn, Jeff Iceman. Chris boiling. Sean Walsh and Margo Maylie. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I'm pretty Pereira stay tuned.

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