From CAFE and the Vocs media podcast network welcome to stay too I'm prepared, and then you pile on top of that. The use by Bill bar the weapon zation by Bill BAR of the Justice Department for political purposes, and I want people to know what happened hopefully so that we can understand it and so that no agee of any party will ever go down that road again. that's really honing he's a former state And federal prosecutor- and my colleague here CAFE and at in it belly. Sir, coach, either the organised crime unit lsd, and why, when I was a? U S attorney there he developed reputation as a tough smart prosecutor who skilfully tried cases inflict mobsters into cooperating witnesses he's out with a new book called hatchet man, how billboard the prosecutors code and corrupted the Justice Department, Ellie joins me today to discuss bars conduct is attorney general under Donald Trump. The budding ten

of current edgy Merrick Garland and the recent indictment from the Manhattan district attorney of Trump organism. Entities and CFO Alan Weissenburg. That's coming up stay tuned. Support for this podcast comes from Verizon Business, Verizon Business, unlimited plants, unlimited data, no overages and more built right for business with the speed of rice and five g. give rise in business. Unlimited plans from his lows: thirty dollars per line, visit, Verizon Doc, slash business, slash plants per month with five on business unlimited start includes paper free billing without open, select, smartphone agreement, discounts, taxes fees in terms apply five g nationwide available in twenty seven hundred plus cities on most Verizon, five g devices find shelter white band available only in parts of select cities

Restaurant delivery. Apps have made it possible for many of us to order pretty much anything. We want he with the click of a but but at what cost. I'm Amygdala post of the latest season of land of the giants. It's called delivery wars and we're going deep. A third party restaurant delivery companies like doored ash enumerates, have changed the way we eat all episodes are fallow land of Wherever you get your purchases from Rico eater. The vocs media, Pakistan. now, let's get to your questions. This question comes in an email from Rebecca who asks What does it mean that markets is associate? Jolt Winberg has asked the judge, his sentencing for ninety days. Does that mean in prosecutors, really good stuff on gates. That's a great question and a great instinct refresh turbulent recollection,

back to the city member of Congress, who is being investigated by the Justice Department, for various things, including perhaps sexual miss. That was a minor, maybe some other things as well, one of his close associate with whom he did a lot of business and other things is Joel Green Burg. Who, just some weeks ago, due to a series of serious crimes and faces minimum mandatory penalty of twelve years now. wait for him to get out from under the mandatory minimum of twelve years is to be and up as a cooperators, we discussed on the show before so I the precise practice and tradition in the Middle district of Florida, but it is very, very common. Within the Justice Department to delay sentencing of a collaborator until the cooperation is finished Ninety days may seem like a long time, and people want to see what no action the department justice will too. with respect to MAC Age or other people benignly. It's pretty short in fact me asking why the typical procedural if you had a signed, are cooperating witness. You wouldn't have a sentencing for that person at quest of the government until they ve completed

collaboration, which can be not just the provision of doc and testimony behind closed doors. The prosecutor took the Mount their case against some other people further up in the food chain, but actually oh see through the prosecution of other people that their, bearing witness, assisted in prosecuting and now for example, in maggots. His case is the way whom I would do it if they end up bringing Ask using its markets and of jewelry brigades of being an important witness. You'd want your green bird to testify at that trial and at my, B for months and months. So I would expect to see further delays incensing as well, and why is that from the defendants perspective, when you go by when the judge to be sentenced on the things you plug guilty too. You wanna get the greatest benefit possible and the greatest It is going to come to you if you show the fullness of your cooperation, including providing information, including pleading guilty including showing remorse, but also including showing that you know undertook that's. Risk and harm to yourself. You testify in a trial,

it s, me was found to be truthful and believed by the jury and resulted in the successful prosecution by justice department, and you want all of that to be available to the judge in the future when you're being sentenced and if you get sent before. All of that is done. You dont have a full picture of what the defendant did so. Clearly, it's ok. prosecutors have not figured out yet They're going to do with the information there is as yet no charge against Matt Gates. He must be providing things that are good, the probably trying to corroborate than information, but I think on all its a good I'm sorry typical, this question comes at an email from Archie who asks what do you think the Pennsylvania Supreme Court's ruling in the Cosby case that he cannot be tried again. I announced the theoretical logic that the trial should be thrown out, but why forbid another trial large Thank you make a reasonably good point. As Joyce

discussed in the insider podcast does love debating concern about the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision from last week, sort of him the blokes out. That goes on a lot of pupils radar. There was this lingering appellate issue with respect to the prosecution of Bill Cosby, to remind me you gotta go back a number of years. Sixteen years the two thousand five when the relevant district attorney was a guy named Bruce CASTOR, who more recently became somewhat famous, because he was one of doll, trumps, impeachment lawyers My second impeachment trial earlier this year. So back in as an five Bruce castor makes it determination, which a lot of people quarrel with, and I see their point that there was not enough proof- surely not prove beyond reasonable doubt in his mind, to be able to prosecute criminally Bill Cosby. So he declined to process. In part for reasons of maybe we'd like anymore, such as this. The time it took for the victim to come forward May the decision not to prosecute. On the other hand, he also realised that the victor, the case was bringing a parallel civil proceeding.

try to sue Bill Cosby and gets financial remuneration for the day. That he did and with respect, because we would have absolutely had the moment right against incrimination and wouldn't it to provide any testimony in that similar case. Whose castor decides weirdly on his own and in a way that was put in writing no formal notation of it he basically Greece, not to prosecute Bill Cosby, thereby castors mind taking away Cosby Zombie, they to assert the fifth, thus forcing them. Husband his lawyers to agree to testify and. a testimony in the simple case he ended up saying some incriminating things, including admitting that here procured and administered quite alludes to women in order to have, with them? So Some years later, along comes under this returning who decides, nothing that agreements binding and The reason I think it wasn't, it wasn't written there from a judge and various other features of it called into question.

They'll caused these lorries made the same arguments that you can go forward because of the earlier grimly whose castor the transit rejected an argument in a trial proceeded in among the pieces of evidence that were put in at the criminals. while it finally was under way? Will these admissions the bill Cosby made in the early similar case which admissions a Supreme court found made it more likely. to be convicted, and there are only because of this agreement or sea agreement between Bruce CASTOR incur these lawyers, so it There are persuasive reasons to think the decision is not the correct one. But it is not a crazy decision disapproval a troubled by the fact that this particular defendant seems to have been compelled to testify in a way, incriminated him further, but you raise a great point the sediment you express was agreed with by two of the members of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, who said be that as it may, we to overturn this conviction. But the way to do properly is, to allow the prosecution if it wants, if it thinks it sufficient to retry Bill Cosby but just don't use this up

Information dont use this other testimony that you can call food the poisonous tree that arose from bill cause be having to testify in a civil trial the business about the queen, and everything else and if you still have enough evidence to prosecute and convict Bill Cosby without that information, there's no there's no foul and due process is not offended. That's not the way the majority the Supreme Court saw the case, but I tend to agree with you those two Supreme Court justices. So, finally, folks, if you're on Twitter, you may that this past Saturday, I went to see Springsteen on Broadway, and I brought my eighteen year old Son, just graduated school and I tweeted who's going to see Springsteen tonight taking my new Highschool graduate Springsteen on Broadway yet another reason to get vexed and then I said the show, then I posted between which was a new for me I posted, My review God Blue

Bruce. I think Springsteen end quote and it's the first time. I believe I've use that word on social media. I don't use that word on casts. I will not reveal to you how often I use that word in my private life, but if I was ever gonna use. That word, it seemed appropriate given incredible the show was for a lot of reasons and its bond. Some questions from folks, including one from Susan Devoe, who asks did the and you would also find it costs worthy Sancho. port the following, My son does increase around me. Because his round his friends, but he turned to me and said he happens to be a Springsteen fan out everyone. Not everyone in my offspring is a huge Springsteen fan like I am, but particular child is, and he turned to me, shows that that might have been the best thing. I've ever seen in my life now is only eighteen years old, but he's been to a lot of shows any place music himself. So I consider that to be a very, very positive review, adjust discord

To give you a sense of what it was like I've seen the Springsteen show for three years ago, or so before the pandemic, and I ve been treating all along about the opening of things in going to games, and I went to see the movie with my kids, not tools go and each one of these things as we come the pandemic to me feels like a revelation. It's something that you have missed it, something that feels more special, it's something realize how much you missed going ashore. Going to a ball game going or movie going to a party eating incited a restaurant, at least for me and everything about the show was in the Broadway in New York is still closed. There's no broadway shows the right up until the middle of September, there's only one as far as I know, and it Springsteen on Broadway, the way it's not just important for him in such as important for people get to enjoin evening listening to him, stories and sing, but also employment for ushers and ticket vendors and other folks who worked the box office.

various people reached out to say how wonderful it is. The Bruce went early because people getting back to work but partly surreal aspect of all this was I take my son to arrest In forty nine street, though we often go to before watching a show and use. crowded. Sometimes it's hard to get a reservation. We will the only two human beings in the restaurant, because there's no other shows its just Springsteen on Broadway, and then you go see the show and if you haven't seen it and you can get to New York, you can watch the earlier version. The pretend I'm aversion and Netflix it's amazing in every way and not a concert in fact Priscus mad? And he got me. Saturday people try to sing along or clap along. He gets. Pretty annoyed by that, as is the Broadway shows our country? I got this, I got disguise and although I had seen the show before more than once and watch it on television there's something about Springsteen tell, these stories after the eighteen months or so that we ve been through, that it even more.

His sad story seem little sadder his joyful stories and songs similar were joyful, and I feel like He seemed a little older and theirs melancholy to his son is about loss where he was about his mother, where his father or Clans Clemens. where's the musical mentor of his who died Vietnam. Still remembers because it have all been through. I think it is home alone more than it did before the pandemic. So short answer your question, although my graduate did not cause, I think he did find it cuts worthy and if, get out to sea, shows and Duke some of the normal things you're doing before the pandemic. I highly recommend and if you haven't done backed, please do that too, because you couldn't see springs, no Broadway without proof of it, the nation so reasonable. Five thousand six hundred twenty eight ticket vaccinated I end with my comment that I have always made with someone ask me about Springsteen

and why I like him- and I quote from John Stewart I think, one time on a show when it was still on the air said the following and I'm paraphrasing. Thank you like joy. If you like joy, go watch, Springsteen, stay tuned, there's more coming up after this. It used to be the medical benefits were reserved for a physical health, medical, dental vision, all that good stuff. but your people deserve more, especially After the year we ve had an and if you have those top to your policies with coverage for weekly therapy, no one complained about having too much support from their employer with calm for business company, can provide their employees with the consistent mental health resources they deserve

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It really is a thrill you. You are, of course my moss and now are my. I don't feel my boss, but colleague and friend and you're somebody that learned so much about, and I think a lot of that makes its way into the book that will be discussing it. I did think a lot about you and our SD and why, colleagues, as I was writing, this will now have to cut back on all the tough questions of fixing that was mile. That was good, very disarming, sir. Congratulations on the book hatchet man, how billboard broke the prosecutors code and corrupted the justice department? And, if I might say I was I blurred the book. I had advanced the book having its excellent, we'll talk about some of the themes in the book, why you wrote the book and some things happened since you put the book to bed, but I do want to know on a personal note. Also that I will forever associate you in your book with an important moment as we come out of the pandemic, and that is Europe, your vote,

party, which was a few weeks ago in June. Seventeenth was literally first public event that I attended indoors with people without asks in fifteen months and as I mentioned elsewhere, terrific event, it was and we're meeting your family and it was just joking around people at the kind of event I used to go to all the time. So thanks for that association yeah, I think a lot of people felt that way. That night there was this sort of release this feeling of joy. That night and I gotta tell you it was a real event for me, because it's like you may have Is it your event? You know you look over that. There's my mom and she's, talking too dominant and there's my god and he's these chatting with scare Moody and George Conway and then to top off

the surreal less of it all. I'm gonna get it. As I know you have an essay go Chris Rock made a sort of impromptu cameo because we use the space. They are our friends at the comedy seller. Let us use their restaurant and Chris Rock did a surprise set down stairs and then he came upstairs to where it was blocked off, except for a party and sort of sat in the back and a. and my son, whose fifteen waited for the opportune moment and walked up to Chris Rock with a copy of my book and asked him to sign it and Chris Rock. Was very kind, and did so so now my son has a copy of my book signed by Chris Rock, and he is clear that is his book. Not mine was running message. He wrote be cool that message be cool yup be collated order, the commemorative rocket.

Hagen live up to that. I know when I have a losing battle. I'm not gonna try! So let's talk about the book. The book is about Bill BAR whole book son article, it some good, readable, factual, interesting, take. Obviously it quite negative unbar. I think good reason- and we can talk about particular things that you describe in the book, but what why an entire book for this one guy, that's a good question, be cause you violated every thing that I was taught or the most important things that I was taught in my eight years at the Justice Department, and I Not here. Thankfully, I had the platform of CNN and CAFE and other places too to vent a bit. But I not here for the almost two years he was in office. Sort of going not right Jane. You know waving my fist at the clouds at the things that he was doing and we'll get into those and you know it hits the coup,

or of sort of not just the job. I d and you did a deal J prepared, but also want over dramatize it. But who are who you are and who I because being a federal prosecutor? And I wonder if you agree with me, but I think it's one of the very rare jobs that actually sort of changes who you are as a person in a good way in a way that can be humbling that I talk about in the book, but gets in your bones and gets in your blood and watch someone come along. A few years later and just trash the place was more than I could and really why not? When did you did you think about a future, it is unjust sessions. Did you think he was a paragon of a virtue and quality in competence at the hell nodded almost Vermont? No, I did not think Jeff sessions, a paragon of any of those things. I do not know why a book on so why book on bar and nothing on sessions, because- and I get half of a chapter to Jeff sessions, because bar was different and an mummy sort of explained

We can actually use a little ass, the and why anecdotes, to explain what I mean during what I call the the pre interregnum beaten: years between when you were there in the USA and that when you came back at U S attorney, we had a speech from Bartle Gonzales, who was the attorney jacket with with the new attorney general at the time This is the ages go round and speak to all the Eu S attorney's office. They sought to give us some speech, and so we all walked over and and packed into the ceremonial courtroom, and Gonzalez, was giving his speech, and at one point he said one of the things that we're gonna prioritize now under my administration is obscenity case. I've heard about. I was working in the Senate at the time and I got a number of emails from people saying you're not going to believe what does have its aid. so a bit so appropriate that you day because what happened after that speech, you know, how works it s there why everyone runs back to their computer. Everyone's gonna get the joke off first, and there was about many emails office, white emails, people its and congratulating their favorite person to make

of, on being named the chief of the newly formed obscenity, sending it might have words, no history. If that directive had been respected, maybe maybe Chris Rock would would have been prosecuted new and again, the signature good point it circle of livestock. On that point, My story is this: it was silly Alberta Gonzalez to stand in front of a room full of people who prosecutes terrorism and securities fraud at mob stuff and to tell we're gonna, be doing obscenity and we all giggled rolled our eyes and all of that, however, you may agree or not agree with the policy priorities of a given administration or given attorney general, what we're going to emphasise what we're knock and emphasise that kind of thing, but when I there. I don't remember anyone ever questioning whether Alberto Gonzales or any of the other agencies. Republican and Democrat that I served under were were honest, had their credibility intact and were independent when it comes to the prosecutor boreal function

those two things were never in doubt to me for any of the New Casey, Gonzales or action after later Eric holder that I served under and I think Jeff sessions far from perfect, I my credit very critical of him. but I don't know that anyone ever seriously questioned his poor credibility. I do right about when he was a little doubt. Very dodgy with Congress and his core independent I later by the Jeff Sessions- took himself out of the mother case, which Bill bar should have done, but didn't do so. I think there are different in kind. I would call a little bit with the characterisation of Albert Organs Alice, as some people may know, I spent a substantial amount of time in the Senate whereby Parson Investigation into the participation of the desert, where we have to talk about that now, but in Dallas at best we sort of an unwitting enabler of lot of politics entering the Justice Department and he and in most of the top staff, the desert from ended a presiding over a variety of things. They did in the wake of the firing of

a number of years attorneys at the end of two thousand six, an investigation to that zone. But I take your point. in your mind in modern times, Bill BAR is the apex of what you think an attorney general should now be right or the nay dear. If I can use a faint yeah guess, ethics is right. It is part of that in your mind- and I wonder you hinted this in the book is The reason for that assessment that you believe Bill BAR is really really smart and should know better yeah, that's an interesting I think, though bar is certainly smart enough to know by the way I don't quite. By into this. Sometimes people go billboards, brilliant, not quite brilliant, and I based on. If you read the things he has written and if you read some of the legal positions he's taken, they fall apart, really really quickly Ahmed. I do some of that in the book

but yeah I mean when bill bars. Name was first announced. I talk about this in the book. I happened to be on set at CNN that day and they got my ear and said we have the name of the person but vetoed the Donald Trump Gonna be nominated There are various names in the atmosphere, some of which were crazy up to and including or down to an including Rudy Giuliani so when I heard the name. It rang the bell because he had been eighty and ninety one to ninety three, and I did some quick region and I said- and I asked the producer to pull this quotes. Like a quote myself in the book, I said something like he serious he's respected and he seems like a strong pick and I put that in the book a because wanted to be clear. I didn't have my knife out for this guy from the start, I was more than willing to give him the better, the FAO and will because who we had at the time was the, the interim or acting attorney General Matthew, Whittaker right who not deserving the book of his own, because the length of his tenure, among other things, but I thought that he was unmitigated disaster, and so you get someone who understands.

Building, who has been there before and bite May I dealt with Bill bar when I was in the Senate on on various matters relating to some legislation when he was Verizon and found him to be he knows where the normal mainstream Republican. Many my new and worked with collaboratively and I'm another one of those people, along with you and then, whereas in others, HU a little bit welcomed his nomination yeah. I thought he would be a very important guardrail. I didn't expect him to go and therein. Sally Yeats or something it, albeit by a sort of tried and true Democrat I expected him who be solid and too I know upsetting setting the bar really wow haired upon intended, but not to lie to us about that about the Mulder report, about election fraud, about the firing of Jeffrey Berman and other lies that I lay out in the book and not to play politics as really overtly and relentlessly as he did and again we can

through this, with Michael Flag, with Roger Stone with Ukraine and by the way pre. You mention one thing that I think it is an important little detail about bar. I think he gets away with a lot or got away with the law in terms of his reputation the way the public viewed him, because of his demeanor, and I must say this in the book at the: U. You say that his sort of you know, partisanship and politicking is upsetting The phrases about is obscured by his hang dog. Look, as I say, here by his veneer of intellectual ism and his hang dog demeanor, and I did not make any comment on the man's appeal. Other than that and here's what I mean when you think of the sort of most dangerous trump enablers the loudest went right, you think of the gym, Jordan's and the boat Brooks is and the rubies right and all of them are our fire breeders and a yell into the MIKE and they say

crazy, outwardly, crazy thing billboard and do that right? Bill Barr has a quiet, soft spoken laid back man, I'm sure he's a decent guy. By the way I never met him. I asked his people twice if you would speak with me for this book. Not surprisingly, they declined but I don't think he's a horrible person. I dont know what he's like, I'm sure he's find it sitting have lunch with, but he got away with because not only does that look, but he dressed himself up with the d o J seal any when you're the attorney general. You carry that way with you When will brand new EU essays pre, they tell us every time you stand up in court and say representing the United States. You carry the entire weight of the OJ, so don't blow it don't why don't screw up he's the HIV and he had that sort of cover going for him, a lot of the things he did were deeply dishonest and deeply damaging, but they don't hit me in the face the way it Jordan are about Brooks. Does one of the things we

criticise not just about Bill bar, but about the entire leadership through towards the end of the year of Drum term? is the is the lack of a certain kind of experience. The billboard had never try to criminal case, and that was true of some other people, the top of the department and of prefer people had to experience too. There have been numerous attorneys and other people at the top levels of the Justice Department who have now had that particular experience, and I wonder what you think of, for example, the: U S attorney in your home state for a period of time. Chris Christie, never try to criminal case ethic ever tried any kind of case, the ineffective, incompetent use attorney. Notwithstanding that lack of experience it so funny, you said that, because about

five seconds before you said the name. Chris Christie, I thought I'm gonna talk about Chris Christie. I think that Bill bar was greatly handicapped in his performance by the fact that he was never align. Prosecutor like you were mate. He never work in. U S attorney's office, he never prosecuted a case and throughout the book I give sort of very vivid examples of things I learned in the courtroom things you learn in the courtroom that he never learn those principles, those basics, the things I call the prosecutors code now canopy then take a job like this without ever having tried to case and be effective. I think so, and I think Chris Christie is a good example. By the way, just trivia question crisscrossing actually had tried at least one case before he became U S attorney in, was to me an here's, what it is because he used to tell stories about this. It was like it was a

medical malpractice case involving a foot doktor podiatrist and he used to brag about the way he tore aboard the podiatrist on cross or something like that. But that is very different, of course, then trying a criminal case, but here's what you need if you're going to succeed, you need to start with. I know it sounds funny thing about Chris de. But you need to have a bit of humility and I know crisscross he's not known for his ability. You wanna Urinary Fraser, no, no! No because he had the humility at least to recognise that he didn't notice job. He didn't understand they stop, and so what did he do? He's rounded himself. His top people were all real when I consider real prosecutors, and that's one of my things with bar not only had bill bar, never try to case, but I go through this early in the book, his top three or four criminal side advisers, the deputy attorney general, every rose in the associate attorney General Claremont Customary, even the head of the criminal division, bride Bench Caskey, none of them, none of them even try to trigger lock case the kind of cases I wish.

when I was twenty nine years old, and I I want to really be clear, Criticism is not just sort of flax, like I'm better than these guys. I mean I I think I am in that respect, but they didn't learn the core lessons of being grilled by a judge and having everything you say, tested by a defence lawyer and having to stand up in front of a jury and be credible and not stabbing your colleagues in the bat, and I have sort of you, no old war stories from Sdn. Why to illustrate each of those. So that really the point that I'm trying to make with that observation. But, let's dynamism of the specifics there's lots of things you mention that are part of your indictment of Bill BAR and his tenure, including, as you mentioned you his reaching down and sort of imposing his will on the Roger Stone case on the Michael Flynn case. There's various things that I want to get too, including how he basically fired my successor at the Austrian. Why and how in Hawaii made

statements and false statements about that in my view, but I want to start with the election stuff. Here it is complicated to me in some ways. But also very simple in other ways and I'll started toward the end. Instead of going chronologically, the reverse chronological, yet Some days before your book, launched in recording day on July sixth of twenty twenty one, which is the official data of your book, launch, billboard an interview with another person, who's, a journalist, Jarvan Carla, respected person in which he the point to present himself as someone who did not believe in the big lie. Former attorney General William BAR says he suspected former President Donald Trump claims of widespread election of fraud were quote all be ass, but he launched an official inquiries into some of them to a peace. His boss would woody make of billboard statements before the election about potential election fraud verses what he said to die from Karl its wonder,

to hear billboard now acknowledge this stuff as bullshit. The problem absent from the Atlantic article is that Bill bar spent months before the election pumping that very same bullshit out there, and I you know this all happened last week. My book, of course, was already printed, but I focus on this quite a bit in the book because I may The argument look, I'm tired of this revision is history from all of trumps enablers, especially when it comes to January six they're all trying to rewrite the way it actually went down there war in December of twenty twenty weeks after the election when it was clear to any sane rational person that it was over did come forward. Tell you Socio depressed that they that deal J had not found evidence of widespread Vodafone. I talk about that in the book. It's good that he did that, but it doesn't even begin to balance out damage that he did he and I I lay this out in the book he went on and pr and he lied about the risk of election fraud in June. Five, six months before the election day, how was the lie? He said that there

Enormous risks that can possibly be policed of foreign, after sending in counterfeit ballots, and there are so many occasions for fraud there. That cannot be policed. I think I think it would be very bad but but one of the things I mention was the possibility of counterfeiting you have evidence to raise that specific concern, notes, obvious and NPR. By the way, are we too late or God bless him had to issue a correction entitled NPR. Let the attorney general. come on our air and Tele falsehood and even that retraction article they quoted actual such an expert who said that bar statements were- and I quote, preposterous false and my favorite knots. I love that some guy from MIT said the things he was saying. Word nuts, I like that plane spokenness from some MIT science He then went in front a congress repeated the same garbage and then he went on CNN. What were you- and I are contributors and went in winning with both

sir, and can you imagine doing this pre I mean you know as U S attorney. Imagine you're going in for a national interview, and you know you know: you're gonna be asked about election fraud and Bill BAR sits down and says I tell you of the wolf we he said we we have a case down in Texas involving seventeen hundred fragile about, and I'm watching that and thinking. Oh, why, okay! Well, that is substantial. now. First of all, the we was not d o j. It was the state, I don't know how you don't get briefed on that and the seventeen hundred ballots they went and found the New York Times awash unopposed, went and found the actual prosecutor said, oh that case above one fraudulent bout. One, and so we d o J, had to walk back. They issued a correction by the way profiles courage, you remember the correction. They said some low level staffer mess it up in a memo. So it's that person's very buying the brief. yeah. I wasn't on TV with Wolf Butter after the interview was calm and the other thing I remember from an interview. Besides what you just mentioned, was he

rightly said that you're gonna get fake ballots from abroad and wolf to his credit, asked a multiple times. What evidenced you have of that how'd you come to that conclusion and he does common sense, common sense, a job, but I'm confused though Ellie yeah. So all these things he looks he's trying to lay the foundation because of trumps wish that Actual loss will be spun as something that happened because it was a fraudulent elections and it was stolen from him we sing. All these things were evidence, so it has attracted some of it a clearly untrue. So what happens to him at the end? Why doesn't he persist in this? you think he had a revelation do. You think he D had a lying beyond which he wasn't prepared to go. Do you think he sought to fill out of love without from what explains the difference in his conduct at the end, which you have conceded is good ways are. There is a widespread election fraud verses what he did before when he was spouting forth about things that were not true because reality

MAX Bill bar in the face and remember it took him until December till he finally came queen about the fact that there was no election fraud, no massive election fraud and I think Bill bar. You know, billboard again he tries to give us off this image of being above it all, and I'm just said during his confirmation. I'm sort of some I retire Grandpa don't need this stuff. Billboard cares about the way he's perceive. I think that is clear and remember the quote from Bill bar the infamous quote when it was asked about them girlfriend case. He said history is written by the winners now on December. First of twenty twenty no bar is no Rudy Giuliani agenda Ellis. He knew that it was over. Ye are over and so he's gotta think about serving his mutation- he doesn't want to go down in history in the dustbin of loans that that are clinging to this election fraud thing into December and January, and so I think he made a look. He did. He did the right,

finger. I say that in the book and end in arguably there were there when it was the right thing to do, but also he had an eye towards self preservation he's trying to jump off the ship. as its thinking and be able to still have some modicum of acceptance in the week community and in the civilised world, from a lot of people who didn't jump off you're even Jeff sessions in awaited ice. I still think bespeaks a lack of self respect even after he was jettisoned and even after trumpet humiliated him again and again and again, he ran for his old sanity and he did it without denigrating. The present He didn't really leave the train and lots of the people have really left the training. Clearly Giuliani in some other people. Do you think that's because billboard wants to go back to sort of traditional, sober legal circles or something else. I

say I think it's the former. I think it's because he wants to be accepted in the sort of mainstream world and because you know, but who knows if rubies, acting or or if he really believes this crap. You know, but I No bar was clear, eyed enough to understand that it was and by the way you know one more pro and one more comment on this story and a lot of the details. When you go back and look at these, you know you forget the another proffer billboard as he didn't have to say anything in December. There was, no occasion for it. He went out you want out of his what he called a car is as you as you might think, that he had his folks call up the AP, and driving crawled describes as well in the Atlantic. He wanted the point now what we have omitted discussing for a moment here before we give him too much credit. Even for that about face is there was a political reason that was not about purity and about act. She and transparency in truth for why he made the statement because it followed a phone call.

We miss Connell, I guess, then the Senate Majority leader still and Bill bar will you make that you read my mind? It is out just to me. It is so telling to me that Bill Bartha, Emma toolbars, giving Jonathan Carl this story, there's no! There's that that's on record and one of the things billboard tells you, Then coral, apparently in an attempt to make himself but good, is. I was in communication with Mitch, Mcconnell and Mitch. Mcconnell said to me We need someone to come out, you're, really the only person who can do it and set the record straight on this, because we gotta make sure we hold onto Georgia right. We had those two seats of up at first for the run off that were going to turn my term in control of the Senate and be war seems to think that it is good that he was in communication with Morocco and decided to act in part. For those reasons to me,

break. This is this is its utterly suffused with politics right. This is why you got fired break is when you got a call that might have been like this. You did the right thing and you said not returning that call and billboard says, hey everyone. I returned the call and I acted on so that shows how out of touch you by the way. The other thing I want to hold against billboard on this particular notice after when he left the couple weeks later, December he wrote his resignation letter this disc. Lasting sycophantic owed to Donald Trump, and in it he took back I'll bet, the old, no election fraud. Then he said I just want to say As for you, Mr President, we are still investigating the possibility of election phronsie undermine his own good deed there as well. I mean the other things he said in recent times include a description of why too have an investigation when the authorized before Election was certified was contrary to longstanding department of Justice policy, for the Rizzo being able to say to Trump. We took

could this be investigated? This didn't find anything there which doesn't make it a pretext. Necessarily it is about CIA with the president and the presence desires as opposed to something intrinsically proper. and you know that there's this interesting piece where in a bar did tinker with what You and I know, is the sixty day ruler. The nineteen April, which is Dio Jade, is not going to announce a major case or take some over action like a search warrant in stay or ninety days debenture you act by the way. Are you sixty or ninety day guy? Well, I think you can get something wrong. The added that there's a dead there's, a particular guy here is a particular guideline with respect to a particular kind of crime right in the overall you don't take. Any action that might affect election is prudential and there are sometimes very good reasons to taken action three weeks before an election? If, if you have evidence, the sitting was congressmen or accounted for. Congress has shut. somebody you don't wait absolute, and so I think people You know it's a guideline, it's more about elections,

and crimes- and I know one of the things you to suggesting is that should be codified, as opposed to being just a mere for an unwritten rule, yeah it's one of these. Where things were every energy issues essentially the same letter, and I think it should there's no reason not to codify. But you may remember this one thing where large sort of week that rule then deal J made an announcement about these mysterious. This is a little before the election. These mysterious ballots in Pennsylvania, which had been found discarded right and it was they first said it was nine ballots for jobs, and they said it was seven and it turned out they weren't discarded. They just me improperly filled out, and you may think that won't nothing ever came to that no criminal charges, no civil charges. Who cares well guess what, when Rudy and those not jobs, challenging the election. They cited that press release. They cited that announcement by Deal J, some kind of evidence, so these little these little. just men's in and you know sort of compensation. The bill barmaid ended up being used in court as as purported evidence of this nonsense

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CALM, slash giants, so some people have come to billboards defence anymore, the other national review- and I know you- you don't like what he wrote and I don't agree with much of what he wrote He was by the way. If you know he was my supervisor, no did not for a year and esteem wise, longstanding as this news turning supervisor under marriage, a white another use attorneys back. the southern district, so he defends Bill BAR and says you're barking up the wrong tree makes various arguments are one of the things he says is that look bill bar did not do this sort of implicit bidding of the present United States, which included desire for his adversaries to be investigated and prosecuted like enemy, cave and Jim call me and others would you make of that defence?

yet there is some truth in it and by the way I talk about this in the book. By the way, I'm convinced Mccarthy did not actually read the book. He really doesn't have any negative words for the book. It's just. He had some pre written owed to Bill Bihar that doesn't even match some things. I say in the book that said, I do know that billboard gets credit for two summit, Then for not Europe, even though the president was egg, I wanna see Joe Biden, Barack Obama handcuff than endemic cave in that kind of thing, and really the better examples: Hunter Biden, here's what I say bill bar. has she showed us throughout his term they was willing and able to be dishonest to fudge the facts, to fund the law, but he's not a wizard He can't conjure something out of nothing and even if Bill BAR had wanted to slap cuffs on Joe Biden,

Hug Obama. Hillary Clinton, you can't walk into a grand jury with no evidence, and I think the injuries are pretty easy to get indictments, but you can't walk in with nothing or you can't walk a complaint into a judge with nothing and walk out with an arrest warrant I'm so he had nothing to work with, and I also think Bill BAR did have his lies. I don't argue that he had no lines, and I he even recognize that you have zero evidence to arrest job hiding or whoever. and you're not gonna. Give we're not gonna get that when people forget talk about these things and in the degree to which you can debate this debate leader of an organisation can corrupted, and obviously leadership begins at the top and there's tone issues, but your bill bar or frankly, no preparers, use attorney or you when you were in the strategies office- you're, not the one interviewing the witness in going to the grand jury right. So some has to do your bad bidding if you're a corrupt person. If we want to carry out some corrupt instruction from a political leader like the president or someone,

and the rank and file person can't walk to the grand jury you know naked with nothing to use just because someone says from on high charge the case right exactly and on that On that note, by the way, this is one of my favorite sort of stats of the bill bar air. Like you see these baseball's that seven different career federal prosecutors resigned in protest off of four separate, politically charged cases because of bill bars, interference, And yet we are Flynn and stone, and we can talk about that. But got can you imagine I mean if he had tried to get billboards not going to go in the grand jury I pushes car in is evident resource grander. So we talk about. You know how he imposed his views from way up You know seven levels down with respect to the citizens just in case which, by the way, I don't love. You said the same, but I thought the sense being asked for by the queer folks in about a stone case. Was there I say that on air and I wrote a piece about it yet as you right in the book, that's very different.

Have you tried General Single out that one case of all the tens of thousands of cases in the country for his personal involvement, cause or other it is worth giving us the first time? The prosecutor sought a sentence that was maybe higher than what attorney general some other person? Thought was appropriate, of course not and the first person, by the way, who would have complained and gone ballistic? in the southern district of New York, if JANET Reno or John Ashcroft reached down, and try to tell us what our sincere recommendation would be would have been Andrew Mccarthy, my former, my former chief who, who writes this piece about Europe, it was interesting to me- is the minimization on the part of people who know how to do, This must work in particular in particular, have the benefit of the tradition of independence, of the southern district enjoyed and is proud of to think that there was nothing to see with respect to the stone case where the microphone case is not a thing that attorney general or suppose there allowed yeah there at the top of the food chain there at the head of the higher

Turkey, but that's not something I would have been tolerated by some of these people were writing about it when they were in the position. Let's go when I dont know Mccarthy enough to devout for that, but certainly that would be the ESA and why ethic I really have to beefs with the way bill bar handle both the Roger Stone in the Michael Flynn cases. First of all, people have said to me: oh, but he's the agent gets to overall people, of course, look we're all part of this hierarchy. I mean you, I'm sure overruled me maybe on something I want to do want to kiss my unit chief certainly did and later when I became a chief, I would say the people now, let's not take that plea, or or let's do it a little differently keep, but but the problem is the line prosecutors, the people who tried Rodger Stone and got that guilty plea out of Michael Flynn. They went through all the required levels of approval. They got there. U S attorneys the sign off, they signed their names on Deal J Letter had they filed those motions on easy on the electronic filing system and then

bar stabbed him in the back, and that is a poor prosecutor aerial. Just just an unwritten rule. You don't stab your colleagues in the back publicly after they ve already been approved. That's number one number two is bill. We tried it tell us- and he did an interview later when he was asked about. Why did you interfere in these two cases? Hatred? He came up with this line. He basically said those are the ones that came across my desk. I mean Gimme, a break It's almost as if what I thought was peculiar about that there is a certain kind of arrogance associate with and you could have a view about one another this was too high or not, and I entirely agree with billboard about the severity. The sense being requested But I would also if I were the attorney general, even if I thought it was thing, and even if in good faith, I thought you know this is a miscarriage in some way, but the judge gets to decide and, I think was clear. Minded people didn't think that the judge was going to accept what the prosecutors are advocating foreign and it turns out. I didn't in any event, but I would have worried about how it looks

as the International United States, the one who times in my entire tenure that I reached and do something unusual is with us back to associate an ally. An advocate of the president. Different. If you're like a micromanaging and look, I got micromanage on some things and try to resist that when I was you was turning by various people fluff mode, identify in this broadcast, but I never thought it was enough for a political reason. Sometimes people want to micromanage and if Bilbil was a kind of person who heard that they cases cases rather kinds of cases and he's the kind of guy who thought he knew better, and he is that kind of guy and you had multiple examples of it. That would be one thing but in the case of Roger Stone and Michael Flint, and I get it now some people say well. At least he believed that right has done with justly convicted. You saw sensing recommendation was too high, but doesn't excuse the fact that he is giving the appearance which you didn't seem to care about, that he's giving

appearance, but he siding with an ally of the president. Yet I and I talk throughout the book about the importance of appearances when it comes to deal jointly. We are always taught people are looking at you and even if you have the right intentions, you can never do something it if it all avoidable. That makes people think that that is stacked or that there are some political influence. Now when it comes to stone, I agree I sat on air. I almost predicted the sentence exactly ass. It there's no way he's getting seventy eight to nine months within a few months of whatever was somewhere in the thirties. That was easy to see coming, but I object to the way he undercut his people and- and this is the part that made me- not son- I think made a lot of people much He tried to claim afterwards that his intervention with Flintstone what it was, nothing political, just sort of happen. That way, I mean, let's just let us get mathematical here for a second deal. J process you did about eighty thousand defendants per year on under bars watch and the only

two times he ever did anything like this step down and undercut publicly the already approved position of his prosecutors Roger started, Michael footmen. We can get some sort of. them physicist to calculate the odds of that happening by sheer happenstance, but I Where are we all know better union a physicist? Having does a calculator, but I think it's just eighty thousand times, eighty thousand, wherever that is, do math on the show, an animal and onto my questions. How quickly about whether she would have some current events as a bear on your book and themes of your book, but this business, where, where a billboard, summarily announced falsely that that my successor, Jeffrey Berman, was stepping down and everyone

standard that play language means that's a voluntary resignation or retirement when that was not true, because you want to replace them with somebody who is perhaps more, you know in the bar orbit. How do you explain that false statement and it's not the biggest lie or false data that he made and maybe because a parochial interests, It sticks in my crime, more than others, but the people who defend billboard. How do you explain that? What do you make of it? Having done the research for the book this is one of these sort of forgotten lies of bill by me. We were at the big ones or the Mulder Report and I think his lies about election fraud. This was crazy because billboard as the Jeffrey Berman, your successor, yet successor, I guess, confirmed six, although you never confirmed but whose point by the Eu S attorney, would be stepping and immediately. You know we're on a bunch of different Sdn. Why text chains we were all like no way no way and that you pray or on air withdrawn Lemon Wendy, preferment about an hour later and beheld. I will

no intention of stepping down and at dawn put the question to you and you had the perfect three word responsibly: the guy clap my ads and cheered watching dear. Do you remember what you say? Yes, because it's in the book right for him good for him good for him. that's exactly right and then so I mean. Why would, do that. Why would you say this guy stepping down when this guy has no intention to step down MIKE? What I paused in the book is because there understood bar and tromp, some combination of them, what a threat there s the and why even under Bill BAR, pose an eye, and I have a couple chapters in the book. I talk. Why is there s the and why so famously independent right, I say, there's almost seems to be a requirement that we always be referred to as the famously independent as the and why I love it. I encourage it and it's true- and I explained, though, in the book what that independence means and one of the things it means is,

Typically, we are independent from what we call main justice. The DC suits the bill bars or whoever it is and were really difficult to control at their steel and lay out all of the cases that Sdn. Why had in investigations pending at that moment in the summer of twenty twenty those key months leading up to the election that could of impacted the president, maybe not directly but collateral? We, the Rudy Giuliani case, even at the time the Jeffrey Epstein Julian Maxwell case on investigations into the turkish bank hopping, and I lay these. And I think it Bill BAR had gotten up and said: I'm firing Jeffrey Berman. He doesn't want to know what we're we're dismissing him. I think people were gone knots and I think bill bars appropriately bill bars plan or hope there was. Let's try to get this done this oft way. Maybe Berman won't have the guts to fight us until just sort of slink off into the night, and they can look like he Quantico stepped down, but God, bless Jeffrey Beaumont. I don't know, man never met the man, but but for staff up in saying no way I've been in there.

the next day bar had to come back and say well, ok, but now you're fired and then the great think of it is built bar then said: I've asked the president to fire you, because it was some constitutional question about whether the idea, the president, had the authority and has done so and then Donald Trump was asked. Did you do have anything to do with? fire that's the way he said. No, I had nothing to do with. One of those guys is line of our job. I don't know who but take her back the aviation belying, where it in a core doc and you support. You also point out that, as your view, multiple courts have made statements about the disingenuousness in misleading nature of some of the things that the attorney general has said, including with respect to the motor. What which people to read the book and get more data to tempt telescopes, why this book about this person is more than about his person and why it is important for people to understand the material in this book. Here it's really about the Justice Department and I am

sort of a deal J purist. I was always raised and by the way saying the book I started as a prosecutor when I was twenty nine years old which follow but frightening. Looking back now at the ripe old age of forty six at how much responsibility your given at that young age and you have to learn how to use it properly, and I d tell some of those lessons I learned in the book, but one of the first things I was taught is any time you stand up. If God bless, if you are privileged enough to ever to stand up in court and say representing the United States of America that all you have is your credibility and independence, and for that and deal J to me stands above and upon all the other agencies, and and even apart from the executive branch, which I know, it's technically part of an end to watch bill bar lie like that. To lie like that. I mean imagined. Breed of one of our colleagues had been found on record by a judge to have been dishonest straight and judges occur,

in over from both appointed by both parties found that bar obfuscate it and was disingenuous lack credibility. I mean that is such an outrage, and that is so utterly unacceptable, and then you pile on top of that. The use by bill by the weapons? Zation Bible bar of the Justice Department for political purposes, and I want people to know what happened I dont want bill bars, malfeasance to get sort of caught up, swept up in the enormous quantum of corruption that came out of the of the Justice Department is easy to forget. Who is who in who, who committed, what violation of the rules and the morals and the ethics and- and I want people I want you- isolate what billboard did hopefully so that we can understand it, and so that no age of any party will ever go down that road. Again, as I think you are aware, we have a new trade general miracles. Yes, in the end, you know, misses the point in your d.

once with a spectre. How you think about these issues. You have been critical America, Ireland, on a couple of scores, why's that yet so narrow garland inherited a very difficult task. Unlike Bill bar, he was a deeply experienced lie level. Prosecutor Merrick. Ireland has I think, you're sort of two options available to an optional is: let's just stay out of the political turbulence here. Let's just do what does to rock the boat as little as humanly possible option b? What have been I need to go in and affirmatively start under. With some of the things Bill BAR did now marathon clearly has gone for option a including in the aging Carol case right where Bill BAR and are very critical of bill bar in the book for undertaking the defensive, Donald Trump in the defamation lawsuit by Jean Carol, Judge Kaplan, who you when I appeared in front of agreed with me and said no, this is not legally correct and I thought I thought narrow garland should and could have referred

that's it we're not appealing that's, but instead Europe's actions that we are going to appeal that I am basically gonna take the same negative sessions. I'm sorry There is hardly that Ankara that don't you interesting choice of Merrick Garland said I'm going to stick with bill. Barth position. I think that's a mistake. I think he's wrong as a matter of law, and I think you made a mistake because it was an opportunity for him to say we're doing things differently here. However, Let me say one thing that I really do approve of that merit Garland is doing. There seems to be a, and unsaleable wall that ought to be there. That should always be there between the OJ and the White House and the example that I think of is the day that d o J did the search for a Rudy Giuliani home an apartment. There is public reporting that the White House was ticked off, because that was the night of Joe Biden, first big joint session of Congress site.

I saw that the dead the White House was ticked off and said good good, because the last clearly no coordination right. The last thing that not bothering anyone it deals should do issued a courtesy call over two hours of the Hague. I just ask why we're not gonna tell you what it is, but, like we're doing, today that might steal some thunder? It's absolutely correct that they not do that, and that should never happens. I think there are. Berlin has done a much better job than billboard. I think Margareta needs to be more affirmative in reversing some of those abuses. So before let I let you go, I want to talk about the recent indictment of two Trump entities and his CFO on Weissenburg and then hadn't grand jury indicted. The tramp organization and wife of our last week treading on the taxpayer conspiracy and other charges alleging a fifteen year scheme of tax evasion, lengthy conversation with to advance on recovery, insider progress, as we can You talked about it. You know really haven't got into it. I wonder a couple of things from from your perspective.

I think I know you stand based on your twitter feed him in some of the appearances you ve done, Is this debate about whether or not this corporate charge is the tip of the iceberg and there's a lot more to come or if it sort of marks. Potentially, although the DA's office has people like you and me in the government, some others have the view that there might be much more to come, is typically the corporate charge happens at the end, and I wonder you think, that's just because of our experience in approach in southern district, but we could be wrong. Yeah, I'm on the sceptical side of things for where this is going. Whether this is going anywhere significantly different, and I want to see an event that you know an indictment of Matthew, Calamari or weissenburg. Son doesn't cow, I mean something significant like of Donald Trump or maybe one of De Trump children. I dont see it going there look, of course you have to put in the disclaimer but its necessary

we don't know, we don't know what they have, but I know the signs. I recognise the side is clear to me: they ve put on a full corp. Let's try to flip Alan Weissenburg he's absolutely. The right person is the obvious person to try flip. I'm I felt myself a lot of times a mob cases. Doing this. You look at the hierarchy. Indigo, whose vulnerable, who might realistically flip sons are going to vote against the father. Who could we pry loose, and I will tell you from experience it socks. you do that when you pick on the person and then they don't flip, because then you end up with a crappy case against some mope, not our weissenburg smoky knows he's doing he committed fair another? This is a classic case, no right, but not the case. You hoped for right, not the case against the big shots in the bosses that you are aiming for and so be it. So people ought to remember this. Ok, there's almost no question that the crime occur, that they were paying people off the books and that they were not paying taxes and that somebody had some in

in design there. I think Weissenburg pretty clearly had that intent and design, but you can't just say: well: the Trump Board was doing this Donald from was the boss. His names on the building come on. Of course, he knew. Obviously he know he must have known. I mean that's basically Michael coincide. That does caught it as a prosecuting. That's not maybe why they haven't charged him right. I mean, I think I think they don't have the proof and where would that kind of proof come from? One may wonder: well a lot of times you get it in an email or a texture. What's that Donald Trump doesn't do doesn't doings, although, although Donald Trump according to the indictment, sign, some of those checks personally yeah, but signing the Czechs doesn't get you there because Finally, the Czechs just shows that they paid people off the books and he knew about it. That's not the crime. The crime is the and also, let's not pay taxes on this Let's do it this way for this reason, and so you need something to tie him to that next level, it's not quite enough and if you dont have emails,

a thing. There's no reason to think he was ever wiretaps secretly and if you can, if you don't have an inside cooperate her, then I dont know that you have the proof beyond reasonable doubt that you need to bring a case like this. What do you make of the fact that many, the allegations set forth federal crimes, nonpayment federal taxes, overtime, defrauding, the arrests and we don't see either an indictment or criminal complain our diversity and why signed by especially to the IRS, nor do we haven't you reporting. But the question why or the IRS is looking at those claims yet so, first of all, I think there may have been some political. I don't mean interference like some from above saying as dear. Why thou shalt not look at this, but I think I see,

understood, it would have been very difficult to initiate this under the Trump regime. Meanwhile, the dossier across the street, the state prosecutor, got off too to a running start in this years ago, two years ago, right and at a certain point and I've been both on the federal side in the state side. If you have a case and you sort of look across the street and you see they ve got it and by the way it could be a little bit messy politically loaded? It could be a difficult case, usually you're, just gonna say: let them run with the even if there's technically some federal, but is not always the way it s doing. Why aboriginal right and that's? Why? But I know exactly where you know, that's why I put that while the issue, because if there is a great case that we all want that we think is important. strong case, then we will fight to the death of any sort. Out of that goes to the core of the question, which is yours, chance it, as do I would like. Yet this is not really worthy I think, that's exactly prosecution. Yeah. We used to get and internal

It was all the time when I was if there is a strong case, a case where you think it's you're, gonna, win, you're gonna, get a conviction and you don't. We used to fight with that when I was a state with the feds, the feds, with the state by if there's a messy case or a difficult case or a complex case, especially a case that could get really ugly politically and the other I just do it. You're gonna, be a good God bless we'll just sit over here and sort of hope. We can stay out of it that that's conjecture. On my but I've, but I've been there on both sides of this. Your prediction, whether Non Weissenburg flips There is no indication of a right now I've seen people say they would never flap and then, when you, when you slap the cuffs on that, does tend to sober people up and bring them in the problem. In flipping weissenburg. I think the quality of the evidence laid out in the indictment is very strong, but the police are and why?

heavy enough I mean I'm, even though we have anti three, I know I know has ability hardening of his team is a possibility that their thinking about charging his relatives Weissenburg relatives could be in, and that is a tactic that we would use from time to time I mean you know only if you have the proof on it and I think that could bring an extra level of pressure to bear on him. But look they're gonna needs nothing to change. The prosecutors are going to need to upset the status quo here, somehow or other. I also think that there is an element of psychology to all this, which is sobered charge right now, I'm sure he's layers of telling him look. We have a chance to beat this case and even if you get convicted will be able to make an argument to the judge, we can't promise you anything but that you shouldn't go to jail, way. Trial in this case is not coming. This fall or early, two thousand and twenty two. It's still a ways away and I've seen people using people who were never going to flip it on the eve of trial. They start getting cold feet. So at the moment, they're going to need something to change they're going to need some breaking news here, they're going to flip Weisselberg.

Presumably the days office has some indication some evidence, maybe not probable cause and certainly not yet proved beyond reasonable doubt that other people, the Trump organization up to and including Donald Trump engaged in criminal conduct outside of the scope of this thing, the tax evasion right and if they dont have any of that. No whiff of that, and then expectations oddly raised for years and that doesn't make any sense it doesnt computer and then somebody you know will need it for, For that, but to the extent that they have some inkling, some proof of other nefarious conduct of the type it's been reported like bank fraud, insurance products, do you find it odd at all? Why did you do find any universe in which that wouldn't also incorporate the CFO, and if so, do you find out that there's no hint of any that other potential misconduct on the part of Weissenburg in this endeavour?

right so that the thinking is if they had weissenburg on other stuff, bigger dollar amount stuff like massively inflating or deflating value of assets. Why wouldn't it be in this indictment right? Yes, one school of thought is that their holding it back and are going drop it on weissenburg and maybe others in a bigger indictment, that's possible. We could see. we ve been hearing desire, make what sense Islamic, because they try You know you. If you're trying to shake yeah, I mean it It really makes sense because, if you're trying to shake Weissenburg, somehow you and I don't get it right- you what you would draw everyone, how have you if, if the goal was to get him to flip, which it seems is the goal you would do that right, Europe, unless you're trying to protect that peace at the case from disclosure right because we're getting we're getting kind of The goal here, but you have to as a prosecutor, make discovery obligations. You have to start turning over your evidence and if the thought is we're still building that case, let's say the deflation of assets case against other players. We don't want to start turning over discovery to were fully ready on all them, but I agree and pre it it's a thing that happens. Sometimes the prosecutors we used to say

as to why there is a difference between knowing something and being able to prove it to a jury beyond reasonable doubt, and it happens. There were times when I was sitting there sort tearing my hair out, like I know, and again I am not necessarily make him. comparison, but that's the world I operate and we like. I know this guy did informants telling me this guy did it, but I don't have the admissible evidence to stand up in front of a jury and prove it beyond reasonable doubt. That's a real Why are you being a prosecutor? What would be the reason if you're not finished and their other charges to competently to charge to Trump entities Well, I don't understand- and I interest and that I don't have all the information and I'm not an insider on this. But could you

I'd have achieved the same goals of putting pressure on our weissenburg just by charging on weissenburg. So here's my theory on that. The prosecutors on this case and in particular the attorney General Latisha James State Attorney General New York, ran explicitly on vote for me and I'll nail, the trumps I mean she said it many many times now. I objected that I don't care of your Republican, saying, vote for me swell and I'll nail, this thought, Democrat or or vice versa. I don't think that's what prosecutors oughta do now. She's put herself in in a tough spot because there are expectations go with that and I think ultimately you're thinking about how do I tell the public that I've not failed here. It looks a lot better. It sounds a lot better to say we ve indicted the Trump or and this guy otherwise no ice. I see that I take the point that doesn't it

The question about the timing: you could still do that later. Yeah. Look, I gotta I'm positing here, but the first splash. I think you want to be significant. I think you want the coverage of it to be, and the coverage imagine other coverage would benefit was just Alan Weissenburg you're right it. Wouldn't it would have long haven't you mean my view, and that is, I think- and I said this with choice. I think to some and people are overstating the consequences of a charge against the Trump Corporation in Europe use this term interchangeably Trump organization. The Trump organization is not a thing. and it was not indicted this Much smaller and two small entities, the trunk corporation in the trunk payroll entity had been charged and not another from corporation has any banking relationships that could be nullified if they own any real estate at all, then they may better another they do or do they have government contract in all sorts of things they could be at risk because of an indictment and a conviction, it looks to me like none of that's true. I think there's

symbolic value and I think it look. It looks like a much stronger indictment if it leads off with the Trump Corporation in the trunk leasing company whenever it is, as opposed to just state of New York, the Alan. Why someone? I think it looks and feels much more. Substantial. There also could be an ever ear to try and you're right, I mean the true all these various Trump L L season organizations are largely just holding. Companies are branding opportunities or that kind of thing that don't actually build hotels and things and higher tennis prose that that's that's a bit of a corporate illusion, but I think there may be some effort to at least choke off the the flow of income, the flow of money back and forth that can compel people to test I have seen that happened to flip when the money runs out, so there may have been an aggressive play there as well. Well, my friend or time has come to an end. sad such as it always must the book is,

Shit man, how Bill BAR broke the prosecutors code and corrupted the Justice Department to great red is very important, in my view, not just to learn about the things that happen the past, but to understand what the right blueprint for doing justice in the right way, which is something that we could american lawyer or not should want to understand. Congratulations again, thank you. Pray thanks. So much ram me really was abroad, My conversation with Ellie wholly continues for members of the cafe insider community to try. at the membership free for two weeks at the cafe dot com, slash insider again, that's cool. dot, com, slash insider that's it for this episode of stay tuned. Thanks, and to my guest Ellie homesick. If you like what we do

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