Hey there, it's Nilay Patel, editor in chief of the virgin host of the virtuous and decoder the verge of turning tendency and were celebrating live in Europe on twenty second, in twenty third, with an epic today of it, of course, I'll be there with other notable journalist virgin some incredible guess: immersive tech. In our experiences already Jays and Great Europe, tricks for a limited time or offering vocs media podcast network fans, one hundred fifty dollars off our standard. Tick go to the virtual com, such on the virtual tickets and enter promo Dollar sign. Nine nine. Now a check Czech I'd love to see from CAFE. I come welcome to stay tuned. I'm your house preparing scale of one to ten, Scary is thy mother. If you're working with it, have you stuck together, how seriously the viewers potential targets

is the spinal tat reference closer to eleven. That's my guest on the show today, LISA Monica former adviser to Brok, Obama on Homeland Security and counter terrorism. For the reasons I wanna talk to loosen, Monaco is because the only way we can just policy if the people who are calling the shots in deciding the issues care about justice to some wanted talk to her about how to fairly ineffectively adviser president, by the way she also her for three years as chief of staff to special Council rocket Mahler don't get into that too. two people tell me we have a in your listeners. Welcome if you haven't heard the first, two episodes go check them out going have you episodes every Thursday, now. We can answer some questions. You guys tweeting pleading voice males. So let's get into that. Our first call comes from Woody Buffalo Prefecture Brown from Butler New York, and that can ask about

tromp at all, I'm interested in what we might have to say about it. Creation of a conviction, Adamantine Stella, Jelly Silver FIR resident of the state of New York. Follow those trials really really closely, so I'd be interested in our talks on what became of them. So we that question that a lot of people have been asking in New York, at least, and for those of you haven't been following your politics. The last few years is very briefly: Sheldon Silver used to be the speaker, the New York State Assembly and dean scale. Us was the republican state Senate leader. One Democratic one was a republican and we mile off his charge them with public corruption, I'm at around the same time when to trial against both of them convicted them got a dream

mostly to decide they were guilty and just to provide some context. Sheldon silver was convicted after a fair trial of engaging in quid pro quo in a couple of different ways: taking money from people hiding the fact that he took them and doing favours for other folks, and one of the things that state Senator Dean, Schell US was convicted of was putting the arm. Businesses, including donors, to give a no show job tests on Adam and In the intervening time since then, and now Supreme Court and its infinite wisdom decided a case involving from charges against the former governor of Virginia Governor Mcdonald, and because of case and the narrowing of what it means to engage in official action in return for a bribe or some other thing in a quid pro quo, as people call it convictions, about Sheldon Silver and Dean scholars recently overturned the everyone how I feel about it. I am unhappy about it. The prosecutors in my office are unhappy about it. The FBI, agents who worked on the case are unhappy about it and a lot of people in New York state.

care about clean government are unhappy about, the Good NEWS is mild thus has probably decided to retry both of those men on corruption charges, because the appeals court found there was more than sufficient evidence to convict them. It just turns out not to get too into legalese. One of the basis on which we argued that they might be guilty had been taken away by the Supreme Court in Mcdonald, a lot of people, don't like the Supreme Court decision cuz. I think it makes it easier for people in politics to commit corrupt acts. Some people called it naive. It will make it harder. Ask your group politicians, but with respect to the cases that my office tried, we still think that there is overwhelming evidence and I have great confidence in the prosecutors. In my office, who are gonna be running into court to retry the case, and I think that justice will still be done. The next question comes from twitter. someone at male Alina, because not picking easy names for me to do here. At Melina asks. I would

to know my mother would threaten indictment of metaphor instead of just doing it such great question. Obviously that's a reference Special council, Robert Mother, who is doing the rush, investigation and manifold, is a reference to pull metaphor former campaign chief for Donald Trump and it gets too is an important point. I think the people need to remember in all of this reporting about what's happening in the rush investigation. Point number one has the only person or people who really know what's happening. Our special council mother and his team and something's leak out from time to time cause is how the world isn't how life works. So I also read that report suggesting that Robert mother had specifically told PA metaphor to expect to be indicted, and I think this week, Roger Stone has said the same thing, not exactly a fond of credibility and just struck. Me is odd because, in my experience, overseeing lots and lots of different investigations of the- U S attorney its typically not done in this way. You don't tell a target route,

to definitely indict you and some period of time. What does sometimes happen, and maybe that's what happened here again. It just educated speculation on my part is that no agents made very clear to Paul Manhattan lawyers that he is in some amount in jeopardy and their pushing hard for various purposes, including potentially to have him flip, as we call it in the government and provide because, usually is the case that you help yourself more as a target. The Earl you come in the early, you express remorse, for your conduct The earlier you can provide leads and information about other people who were higher up for the government to use. So it is not unusual for prosecutors to investigators to play Hardball saying your guy is in trouble. But it is unusual- and I doubt this happened to say- definitely expect to be indicted in a case like this. So

As you read stories going forward about thrush investigation reporters have an interest in trying to get scoops on things and beating each other the punch on what's happening. I would take all reports, no matter what the source and what the magazine or newspaper, with a grin. Thought. Mister Gerard I'd, love working officer. I want a New York City right now, I'm like one he is with yesterday's attack on protesters guards. The president was the thought and running through my mind as well as other law enforcement officers is what we can do in a situation like that foreign guards unlawfully attacking protesters in our presence on american soil blocking review. If we were to arrest someone doing that, whatever the consequences before So thanks for that question, as many of you know Irwin is the leader of Turkey and on a couple of

on occasions. His sword, henchmen physically assaulted protesters, heard one in the United States two weeks- and you ask what can be done about it, I guess law enforcement can do something about it. If you law enforcement officers present seeing one human being beating up another human being You make an arrest and the issue of mad at community or anything else or international. nations and foreign policy that can get worked out later mine ending as there were not enough law enforcement folks around at the embassy, in a few weeks ago to have a recipe made some time after that those people were chart. But there were long gone by then, and some of them have diplomatic immunity. So it becomes a difficult matter, and I have some experience with this in price Getting people who have a left the country and be can claim diplomatic, Munich, people have a different view about whether not that should be the case or not, but it happens to be a matter of on international norms that you can bring them here and prosecute them, but I'll tell you what can be done and what should be done and we haven't seen it be done,

and that is the present high states who claims to be about America first in claims about the rule of law and law and order has, as far as I can tell not said one thing about the fact that the strong men from Turkey has allowed his people to do this. In fact, Irwin claimed the Trump apologize to him for the charges against his bodyguard, who beat a protesters, some of whom were american forlorn one or two work and for rule of law to mean something it is not just charges being brought at the local level or at the federal level is also about the leader of the country. Standing up for in a public safety and standing someone who thinks he can get away with these kinds of things and this kind of thuggery in a country not even his own and so something to be outraged about it's. The silence of the presidency states with respect to urge, once henchmen have been doing. We got one recall this one's from New Orleans Ivory by data for our brought back from your let's. Do it the Anna, I really have a question on a day that really environmental

you're doing, and I was really really impressed with how had to take a shot at. You haven't media heritage, and I think that's really sad that day. Really, I die just happened. Somebody I'm looking at you and wish you and your I got some remedy. Do that the glass I figure, Ok, my bad, an oral question there I just want to play that went from us I guess this week is LISA Monaco, who has had a lot of titles. I think the most appropriate to give to her is general that asked these most recently advise the present United States Brok of armor on counter terrorism and homeland security. She also has done in her career all sorts of other things, including working with Robert Mother, on the Enron taskforce. Also. Virginia Reno, also worth for Joe Biden. So when I say we want to interview on the show people who have been in the room here, about LISA Monica what everyone else I know she has been were happens so that commerce

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These are Monaco. Welcome to the show great to so. You work for a lot of important people that folks have heard of JANET Reno, Joe Biden, Morocco, Mama and you were at one point- the chief of staff to Robert Mahler- that's right so meet maybe start with raw Mahler. Much in the news in recent months. He was the FBI director for ten plus two years and was appointed a special council by the trumpet ministration in connection with Russia, investigation and you'll appreciate this. We want to do conference in you were there as well announcing the arrest, a couple of people who were charged conspiring to assassinate the site. ambassador and before he went out to the pole, Bob Mahler literally made fun of me for wearing a blue shirt. I remember that he's a white shirt guy former marine, and so I have been. I will tell you professionally and personally upset to see a person like that was a valiant member, the military served in every capacity. You can imagine the Justice Department as that

and at the head of the FBI in the wake of nine eleven and I get upset when I see people engaging in character assassination of a public servant like that, even if they have different political views. I find it unacceptable. Now you were his chief of staff or how many years two years, three years has it make you feel when you hear people saying the kinds of things are saying about him, you know have had a few Actions to that one is like yours, incensed that people would question or call into question the integrity of this man who I know well and have the utmost respect for when he has such a long history of services country. But the thing annual appreciate the street is, I know that it doesn't affect him. This is a guy who's. Whole mantra is keeping down and just do the work. He weathered a lot of issues when he, was FBI director? We came under a lot of fire in of nine eleven. So here

used to seeing arrows come from all sides, but it's not going to affect how he does his job. What what do you have to say to people who political reasons, are questioning his motivations Tells me they don't know him. And they certainly don't understand the mission of the special council, the how it set up and they don't understand the job of prosecutors in investigators. A lot of people have suggested well, the point of it is to bring a charge or to make a referral. Otherwise, what's the point and I try to explain it. Some people don't like it on the left, people don't like the president. Now it's not that he's assembled a team that is destined to make a charge his heart, a team that is schooled and have a law works and how to gather facts and will get to the truth and that might lead to charges or referral against one or more people or not sure I know a number of people on the team, and this you could not find a

a greater assembly of talent experience across all different disciplines ever be required for a case like this. So this is really without parallel the team, he's assembled and the goal, and the focus of a team like this from the investigators to the prosecutors it he's assembled, is to find the truth. over that falls out. If there is a charge she made, I have no doubt that they assemble that and be able to prevent that evidence if there is not frankly, people on their side. The critics oughta be be that its Bob Molly he's doing this, because no one is going to have greater credibility than him to lay out the facts as vital. We spent a minute talking about why it took so long. I have said many times it takes a while to do a proper investigation in part. The reason is You dont know where all the dots are to be connected and tat. You will send out a subpoena who a financial institution and you'll get some. He went back and you'll see some money coming into a bank account, and then

it's only then, some weeks later, when you get the return on that subpoena, that you find other accounts within putting money into that, and then you have to then go to the process of issuing Sabena. The other back, and the same is true. When it comes to interviewing witnesses right you talk to people the interview witnesses, the like this or any investigation, and they refer to a meeting or another. Person who was at a meeting or another person who is part of a conversation who you, the investigator the prosecutor didn't even know, existed or was part of this set of events, and now you ve got no talk to that person, so it is a seemingly endless string of potential aids, whether it on paper or whether it in the interviews that they conduct and that could prom another series of investigative steps, the anything it is then I'm amazed out when I see people commenting on this is when they say: mother and his team are conducting, invest. native steps for the poor of sending signals or for the purpose. intimidation and it makes

Crazy, makes me crazy to because they the people saying that a don't understand how investigations work, and so they can be forgiven for that be they dont understand by Mahler, and so I suppose they could be forgiven for that. But then don't impute motives to an individual or part of it seems people of the spectacle of and people would say that about me when I was, he was attorney and in some way was model a model between mean whoever the potential target was not how we go about. It seems a people, don't always the bomb or has a crack team, the prosecutors investigators. He has a considerable budget and yes subpoena power, an armed men at his disposal to find out evidence, that's the kind of guy does need to flex that exist. It doesn't need to send any messages, because that's not the way. It's done. What's it like, when someone gets, the call to work for him like you did, is achievable. For some of these men and women are now. I think the prosecutors are working with them realise that they just made it to the Big League and that they are

in the equivalent of the prosecutor, aerial and we'll Superbowl, when I first started working with him as First Council to him and then is his chief of staff, the late David Margolis who's been referred to as the conscience of the department Yoda and living in between he said to me. Sir. This is and to be the best job you ve ever had and with great respect to my former boss, President Obama, if Margolis frame So how do you think by Mahler organizers, a big investigation like this in the same way that you might have- or I might do you allocate shouldn't resources too likely leads up front or do look at everything at once. We can produce a few things from the steps it has taken, thus far right. The team he has put together he's got experts on publication of efficiency prosecutor from your office. My former colleague Andrew Weissmann, who led the Enron taskforce and lead the department, Justice Fraud division, so very schooled in camp.

Ex financial crimes he's got experts on international and color intelligence matters in investigators with that discipline and importantly, Michael and who is the revered lawyers in the Department of Justice going back decades for his understand the criminal law and his about ready to see how things are going to play out after a charge was made for a trial happens in what they call it legal base, the appellate phase- and so you know tells me that moment team or looking at the entire scope of this and are looking down the field as well. Imagine Michael driven the name, but is not a household man, it's exactly the person about whom I am aware, more professional crushes throughout. From the amongst amongst legal nerves and looked at the legal needles urged that you travel with Somalia. what about mother? You were most recently TAT advisor to the President of the United States and

you were in the oval office on a regular basis, advising on terrorism issues and at a keeper safe in America. So thank you for that service. We hit the hardest I've ever had probably here just the sheer number of issues that you'd confront. Every day that the president had to confront and then, by extension, his staff The sheer range of issues that I had on my plate from terrorist threats, both here at home, to our people overseas to cyber attacks and cyber threats, not incredibly week an exponential threat sure that that we ve seen evolve over time. Natural disasters like hurricanes and pending disease. So I had a full panoply of kind of case scenario, concern Then I was focused on every day and talking to the present every morning if the goal of any White House on the issue of national security and public safety, make sure that are going to safe in the threats or vanquished to what degree or use

to be loyal to the presence agenda on behalf of the american public. You know this question and one that obviously, is a lot of attention these days. Given the discussion about president, the agenda and his a lot of staff turn over the way I looked at this is. I wasn't going to agree one hundred percent with a decision or every policy of any of the people? I I've worked for my think, that's probably true through from tat Tom. You would give advice in the oval office absolutely, and sometimes your advice was taken in. Did you on those occasions, go back to your office and immediately phone up in your times in Washington Post and tell him about it to the point where I had to play Speed dialing threaten reflect that you're being sarcastic best thing, there is very that question. Is that's apparel we're seeing in the papers every day, and these leaks of people talk about-

as someone who was in that room in the oval office before it was redecorated. Why is that bad? I think that you shouldn't agree with everything that the person you advising guess they shouldn't want you to their ought to the disagreement, otherwise the president or the FBI direct worthy Turning general has Yes, men and women around them and that's not good. You get into group thank and that's all bad, particularly. talking about manners of of life and death. So You sometimes think it was your role to disagree to play devils advocate, so you could work through the other side of the view. thirdly, both in the oval office and in the national. Security for space The situation room when I would lead the deputies Committee or the principles committee, depending on what the issue was. You want make sure, at least in the process, that I ran in that I saw my colleagues run in those settings. You want to make sure

Our views are getting out onto the table. You know consensus to emerge, because quote that's what the White House wants, that be a bad decision because it can be poorly informed. I learned to learn this there's a nap inclination to want to be on the side that the boss ultimately end up going on. How do you guard against that? Because I do have a worry, so speculation that some of that it's happening now in the White House. No, it's a real danger. I found I had to check myself on that, not to think ok everyone's gonna, be feel free to disagree with me. If I'm the one leading the meeting, you have to be mindful that, if you're the one who's in them ship chair that they're gonna be people who are gonna be reticent to do. That is something I our President Obama do all the time which is not lay out his view but literally go around that situation. Room table to what we called the back bench seats to make sure that everyone is heard from to inform it's you who is on the back, but you know a lot of people periodically yeah

the folks who don't have the name play to aren't the cap level. Member. You know him her staff, who oftentimes frankly hadn't more interest, things to say that some of the folks at the table in connection with keeping the country safe, we have democratically and in this country and not everyone likes the results if their guy doesn't. When someone different party won in prison Obama, rode off into the sunset and Donald Trump becomes a present, but then there's this thing called transition. They wonder what that was what that was like an if you still talk to those people I was, and I did, and they do So, ok that you're a much needed to know every day So during the transition. I spent many many hours with my successor, Tom Bossuet. I was hoping to impart him a set of priorities and things that he knew keep him up at night, but there were others,

things that maybe he didn't know, would keep him up at night, and I wanted to tell about those so clearly the threat of terror attack cyber threat. those are. Two things are we're gonna be on the top of his list, but I also told the most very concerned about the problem of emerging infectious disease and things like a bull or seek our new strain of flu that were not necessarily prepared for and that I thought he needed to be really for on that issue I wanted him to focus on the, american tour still held abroad, both by terrorist groups and by regimes item about Bob Levinson longest person held overseas about Caitlin Coleman being held. The Mccartney network and trying to impress upon him the need to, even though the press of all the other business. Keep those people and their families at the top of Agenda and to maintain contact with the families. Did you also talk it

all about the importance of guiding principles and how to make sure that the president made the best decision it did. I talked about the importance of running a full and fair and transparent process in the situation room when he was leading the deputies here? The principles through whether its managing a crisis, terror attack or natural disaster, or coming up with a policy response and the importance of making sure You got all the information and all the views represented at the table and that he be an honest broker for that and importantly, the importance of disagreeing, giving your best full and frankest. Information and advice to the president is normal, it, though, that that bureaucracy and it gets bogged down and that an activist man of action is best served by talking a couple of people who really really smart and then imposing his will so things to be done more quickly,

well look the way you laid out. I'd pick the first to do. You know activists guy who just get it done, but the reality is either. One of those two are the preferred outcome. It's a false choice the decisive leader whose guided by this country's values and principles informed by experts and willing to listen to differing views is going arrive at a better decision and a more informed view nine times out of ten. If the goal is to keep the public safe, what's the degree to which either energy, can or should enter into that look. I think they're gonna be room for differences in ideology, as long as they're, not unbending or anew yielding to facts that are the poor, to fully considered expertly informed discussion so case. In point, present Obama spent a lot of

I'm on the campaign trail criticising President Bush's approach to the so called war on terror, and when I think he's right about this when he got into the sea and little Had the responsibility and got the intelligence about the threats facing the country and really pro the intelligence community on the steps they were taking, whether it's from surveillance to the use of drones, etc. He got himself informed by the experts, the intelligence community, the diplomats, you name it and was willing to say you know what we're going continue. Some things were going to make some adjustments here in other places, but he didn't let it ology? If you want to call it that be a strait jacket for how he protected the country

We haven't talked about this in years. You once told me that you have someone has to call the families of Americans who will be headed by ISIS in their savage way in a person. Was you what was that like and how that affect? How you thought about the policy? No separate part from what the policy should be, intellectually? What was it like to call those families, then? How did it make you think about the policy so that young people who may thus causes myself and President bomber when unfortunately Americans were killed by ices and brutal way they described, and it is probably the hardest thing I had to do in that job because there was no solace I could provide to those parents and they were going through. The most heinous experience you can ever imagine, but I felt it was important to make sure that they had somebody in the White House who they could talk to some.

As every day either right after work before they saw some of those who are video, so I was amazed that the parents who had their children killed that ISIS killed in the summer of twenty fourteen, had the courage and the generosity, quite frankly, to work with us to reform some of the policies and procedures that we had in play. So, even though they were justifiably angry and there are going through horrible grief, they gave of themselves to work with their government to hopefully see future families not have to go to a similar It leaves your final question LISA. You served in government at every level, every branch for most of your adult life after going lost in its tremendous service in Europe, in the game, and in the action and having force in it went on so many things has. How do you feel

he'll about not being in it anymore. I miss the mission right because, as you said, my job description was literally working with the rest of the presence national security team. Basically, the job description was to help keep the country safe, that it does not get better than that when it comes to job descriptions. But I don't miss getting woken up multiple times a week in the middle of the night, by the situation, room and the pressure that comes with all of that mission, but I do enjoy filling more rested. Do you have a view when you look at what is going on now in the White House other times when you not handling things right and if so, yes does that make you SAM? Thank you crazy here. Should I worry about pre. There are going to be differences in policy, elections are about as concerned as I am opposed to some of the policy decisions, thing I worry about over the long term. Is the damage to institutions the damage

two appreciation of expertise and making the word com your official or career public sir into somehow a dirty set of words. I worry about that because I could not have done my job without having career professionals subject manner, experts helping shape these decisions in these policies, and I worry that there seems to Have taken hold in Washington a sense that those people are worth listening to and that they don't provide value and there's a rejection of that, and I think that's unfortunate in really dangerous Sweden, which it is public servants than I had ever known, LISA Monica? Thank you so much for being so we come to the part. The show, also known as yet right about something in the news that struck me this week

and this you may have seen its news- that the acting head of the drug Enforcement administration, Chuck Rosenberg, chose to resign effective October. First. Now there have been some reports. The part of the reason he is stepping down is that here have faith in the president's commitment to the rule of law. I don't know that's true or not it we interesting to hear what, if anything, chug Rosenberg has to say at that? But I thought I'd mention my own personal connection to Chuck struck Rosenberg is, I believe, a Republican was appointed by republican President George W Bush to become the United attorney in one of the great districts in the country knows. Where does the southern district pretty great the eastern district of Virginia, and when I got nominated by President Obama, the? U S attorney at a young age of forty eight years ago. I wanted to get advice from people who I thought were great leaders by reputation or any them personally and among the people I met were basically all the living you guys it's attorneys.

My district but outside the southern district of New York. The person that I wanted to with most to get his wisdom, his guidance and tips on how to do. This is crazy job woodchuck Rosenberg, and he took the time- and he didn't know me really and we wouldn't have lunch at Harry's, which is a play scientist having street in DC, were I think he had lunch every single day and he spent I think, an hour. A half or two hours with me. Just telling me his thoughts on how to run a good office we told me was, is not enough just to care about the people who for you, you to show them you care. He had talked to them. We gotta get to know them. You gonna walk the halls you have to make them understand. You have their back that that, I think, is one of the best lessons that I learned shit and on an even more personal note. At some point trip rosemary became the chief of staff to the FBI. Director and I was coming down DC at a family trip- and I rang up and he's probably is busy a person, as you can imagine,

and I said you know my family's coming down- maybe he'd I could have lunch and he suggested will want to bring your kids to the FBI appear headquarter and I thought he was gonna- send somebody to do your guided tour. We get to see the museum at the FBI and you get to see the indoor firing range was pretty cool and Chuck Rosenberg it to himself, and I think he spent two hours with my kids explaining to them the history, the FBI and, I think, there's now twenty seven percent chance that they want to become FBI agents. The point of this is your: he didn't have to take that time and he was republican and pointy spy timer for cheeseburger and fries with democratic pointy, and it's one of the things that I don't know. People appreciate enough that the right way law enforcement is done is without caring about politics or who someone is affiliated with who they might have voted. but to do the right thing in every circumstance, so Chuck Rosenbergs departure from government the loss for the de it's a loss for law enforcement

and I think it's also loss for all the people, not just me who he is measured over the years. That's it for this episode of statehood. Thanks again, my guess, LISA Monaco and thank you for listening, joy. The episode do me. A favor and head over to apple pie, casts to leave us a review, probably read it and then feel embarrassed that I remembered in Darfur, If you have questions about news politics, justice, tweet them to me at three parara or even better, give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two thousand four hundred and seventy seven three- that six six nine to four preach, crazy numerical coincidence stated, is presented by CAFE and w unwisely studios, its produced by the team of Pineapple Street Media, Henry Malarkey, Generalised Berman, Joel Level and MAX Linsky, our music did by Andrew Dust thanks to Julia Doyle and clarifies

We have a new episode for you. Every Thursday, I'm Humphrey Ferrara Statehood.