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Dominating better ideas in world care, be illuminating, find out we'll get luminary, I get luminal darken evokes and other bills. We can use to make sense of the pushed overturn, really wade a series of pardons by Trump that have raised questions about the process and newly unread active Michael Flynn Mammals. I talk about all this more with an melodrama capping insider podcast. Each week we break down the news and take stock of what happening today were making for the most recent episode available in the state to feed to listen to our full conversation and access all other Cathy and so content, become a member, a cafe, dot com, slash insider! That's cafe! Dot com, slash the twenty! Twenty election is, is gonna matter enormously, virtuosi would happen with this abortion rate of will be talking about it, a lot more in the coming weeks and months. Another big issue

in recent times the President's pardon power, so he's pardon if you people, some of which have been controversial. Pollution, does note to make clear Ok, that the pardon power is really one most unfettered authorities of the present has in the constitution. There is basically review. There is basically no guidance. There are some people who, in the present himself thinks this. They can basically pardon anyone in effect, proceeding anyone for any purpose, including associates, including family members, including himself, he believes he can engage in self pardon and that would be lawful. Some people speculate that I don't really want me to you, don't think you can sell fired and but the fact that there is a little bit of debate about that shows you how broad and discretionary the departing power is. It's it's. One of the broadest powers at the president has in lots of presence of use that power, sometimes I think, is an in an abusive way who should say at the outset and I've seen some these people on Twitter. When I

suggested over the weekend at the party in power to subsidies, can be revisited after trumped Liege office. I am not suggesting it should be taken of the constitution. Peoples are well what you think about Margaret Margaret was of no wealthy financier whose I've been pardoned should not important whose wife gave money to Bill Clinton and on his way out the door built important mark, which now I was like having three four thirty one at the time, just beginning as an assistant use attorney. So I was not in a position on twitter if they didn't exist to state an opinion, but I totally agree with the outrage on the part of a lot of people, including by the way, the southern of New York, which, at the time by marriage. A white who, in face, and in the wake of that pardon opened up a criminal investigation of the President, who would appoint Bill Clinton than others Because of the outrage of that part is also one of the things because it looked like a quid pro quo and I salute like the money was given by Mark riches wave in exchange for the president, issuing the pardon exactly and is one of the things where perfect procedure was not followed Somebody later became the attorney general Eric holder, the biggest hold up he had in his

formation hearing was his role as deputy attorney general in improving the pardon of Margaret she s, so it's been abused by other folks to end. I had been vocal about it since you just had on one of the things that I think is the biggest problem without Trump is doing it, but also really one of them. challenges with the pardon power, which is extraordinarily broad and that's process and procedure, and this where, yes, the president, has the power to pardon anyone, and I shall also just stepped back for one second and say a pardon takes away. your criminal conviction. So if somebody incarcerated they get out and that record is wiped clean. Basically, it totally take away your conviction now It's different than a commutation of a sentence which is, when somebody's, let's say, somebody's given a twenty year sentence and the President commutes that sentence, for example, to ten years that mean There's a lengthening of the amount of time that someone's incarcerated, but a pardon is really saying we're taking away that criminal conviction, and that would

clued, if you are incarcerated, you'd, be released in terms of process. There is a process that was put in place number of years ago to have the Department of justice screen all the part at the time of Lincoln at the time of linking them is one I m sure we rather was it There is a century of just the present, as does sort of essentially what he wants, and then they put in the office of the Pardon attorney which, by the way, is also content. So. There are people on both sides of the Isle who say that of justice should not oversee pardons because they are the people who oversee convictions they're. The ones who are in charge of criminal prosecutions actually tend to agree with that, but I thought have to set up than an outside agency or group with a strong process were how you're gonna vat applications for pardons and caught mutations sentences what's wrong here and what is so disturbing, I think, was also disturbing with Bill Clinton and Mark, which is that it looks like a friends and fair lay and in the case of Donald Trump celebrities, plan right, if you're famous, if wealthy. If you have access to the president, then

Hey I'm going to give you a pardon, there's, no sense of fairness or equity. There are millions of people of criminal records in America and basically Donald Trump is cherry. Picking Conrad Black is a particularly interesting example he talks about him. So he is, you know he owned a lot of newspapers, not just in England but in other countries, and he is one of Donald Trump. Closest friends has written a book about Donald Trump regularly rights article saying how wonderful trump is. He was convicted of obstruction of justice and wire fraud and male fraud. The case went up to the Supreme Court. And what's in shame at that, as the obstruction relates to, while he's a court order, saying you cannot destroy documents or take documents. He and his chauffeur at the time go in and take out boxes and boxes of documents from his office, and for that he is convicted of obstruction of justice. What is another feature of Conrad Black? They would,

I seem to be he claims without making a pardon application even and no process going through the officer, the patent attorney. Why would he come to the attention of Donald Trump, who might pardon side from the fact that there are good friends and he wrote a book praising Donald Trove other than those who knows that he has a puzzle, anything else that set him apart from any person who, by the way, has managed to do. In the world, notwithstanding his conviction so right back was ultimately convicted of destruction of justice and male fraud. He was incarcerated, served his sentence and was subsequently released. He's always contested his conviction and things. We notice the president even seem to contest his conviction in issuing the pardon Conrad Box. It was an unjust prosecution. The president seem to agree, which is surprising, and I think very disappointing for the present of United States to do Let's go about petrol and for a second have you met Pat Nolan. No, oh guys. I've met him,

and I I have a great deal of respect for him. He was a republican state legislator who was convicted by the FBI. Racketeering scheme. He was essentially taking bribes. He went to prison for that. He did his time. He then begin a leader in the criminal justice Reform Movement and he has been. I think I met him and twenty and our twenty eleven. I would argue he's one of the reasons that the conservatives have come so strongly into the criminal justice reform. Space and so he and my view deserves a lot of credit for his work and criminal justice reform, but I have to oppose his pardon as well, because there's absolutely no process the president can't just pick people who Jared and vodka in the case of petrol and bring to him and say this guy's a real that. Guy I mean they can they can the President s shattered? Why? I think this will be one of the things that will, revisited in twenty twenty and whenever trumpets gone, because the people have asked discretion to do

thing and they do it in a way that seems to be abusive or capricious anything near the maidens. I'm talking about this after Brooklyn did his partner Margaret, but at some point people can get fed up, and yet we haven't seen a couple years of the pardons. We may see issue from the present, and I think one of the reasons were talking about this is not just because Conrad Black just happened but because the president has ended did that he wants an expedited bases. Paperwork prepared for the potential pardon on all days memorial day for symbolism, the pardon of one or more Navy seals who have been accused with heinous war crimes, new, really debaucheries violent cereal killing kinds of allegations. Those allegations of been resolved. Did the court martial has not happened yet, but on the EU, that happening, Donald Trump, has made it clear, because I think these folks have gotten some attention on Fox news and other places that they may be deserving of a pardon one of those people. We should.

About Edward Gallagher, whose Edward Gallagher he is. the special operations chief of the Navy seals and he's about to go to trial on charges of shooting I'm civilians and killing an enemy captive with a knife while deployed in Iraq and its worth, noting that Other Navy seals who served with him have told the authorities that gap indiscriminately shot at civilians gun down? twelve year old girl wearing a floured he job and also gun down, and unarmed, old man and knife to dive to the allegations, Young man who was in custody and who is being treated for his wounds, took out a knife and kill them all but an intact set about it with his friends in Burma. As you point out and as others, it out, is accusers the witnesses hunt soft liberals who I just don't like military action, it's his fellow Navy seals who thought that they had a leader who was out of control and should be on the battlefield. Isn't this our partner countries

and we ve been having about the president, not following the rule of law and really trying to undercut it when we think about rule of law- and you think about an organization like U S, military that gets deployed all over the world. How important is that people follow the rules and that they follow the laws and the guidelines of how we treat fellow Americans and people from other countries, everyone, humanity Allow those violations to go not even unchecked, but almost approved bright apart in a case of somebody who is about to go to trial for work before just get in the unification of yes in their hasn't even been a trial, there hasn't been a fine the fact that hasn't been finding of guilt or innocence in the absence of any kind of adjudication decide in advance to pardon someone seems to be particularly troubling. You mean that

got the guy behind generally that the present is not follow because use a constitutional authority to do whatever he wants. But the guideline within the part that turns office is that there has been a finding of guilt either by guilty plea. Or conviction, and then some period of time has gone by since that decision. In here. Although there have been pre empt importance in the past, people forget present afford preemptively pardoned Richard Nixon in in his mind for the benefit of the country. Without there having been a charge without there having been a trial like it would be. In this case it has happened, but that was an extraordinary circumstances. This is not that I mean what earth is it good and just a good message to the troops that someone has been accused of basically killing people in cold blood by his fellow honor? service members. In what universe does that advance some good for America? It doesnt ETA and desirable service? Men and women hurt the honourable men and women, and also think about

Andrews trying to basically instil integrity, a sense of justice and fairness in their troops, and I think for questions order and discipline in the military and just fundamental fairness? It is, it is a terrible. Thank me. One of the reasons that you have punishment for crime is to deter other people right, and so this is the opposite of that. This is this is undertones is not fully. Are you taking me a powerful deterrent message to those who would engage in war crimes on the battlefield in the name of America, but your? effectively sayings away what you d have second ago, you now that will be saying, and I go out there guys and do you need to do enough occasionally to stab akin to death or shoot a girl who's not doing anything and doesn't pose a threat. That's what you gotta do forgotten country, and we have your back and I think that a prison for it. It's awful,

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