I stated listeners, as many of you know CAFE insider is our new subscription service that includes podcast co hosted by it the grim and me each week we break down there. And makes sense of what's happening from time to time. We make portions of care insider episodes available in the state and feed we're bringing with segment from our most recent episode. We dive deep into all the statements at anaemic the former acting director, the FBI, has been making them a vision and in his new book that out today, including discussions among top Dio Jeff. those about the removal of president from from office. Pursuant to the twenty fifth amendment to the constitution. If you'd like to hear the full episode become a mess by going to cafe dot com, slash insider, you can hear a full discussion that covers transnational emergency declaration, the latest news on Roger Stone and more

to the many of you who have chosen to join the insider community. Thank you for supporting our work. Full episodes of state to remain free every Thursday and a subscription allows us to keep doing what we're doing, and now here's a portion of our conversation on coffee, insider From CAFE, welcome to Cathay insider I'm prepared, and I mean- I am the morning. Oh I'm gettin Haider, and so can we do the most pressing issue of all first Yes, so there were some grammatical controversial. Yes, we are engaged in last week. The difference between the past tense, plead, pled versus pleaded, and I say you glad I got. and then so I had a point in my favour in the past week and I tweeted about it and, I think, generated like a million very hot topic, because there is There is a submission made in the mother investigation and in their submission the formal submission by the Social Councils office. What did they use

pled on sixty minutes on the interview of Andy became. What did they use related? I guess I have to say, I'm sailor see versus sixty minutes was an american arson was much go play ballade up a lot of people are up in arms about pleaded versus blood. I had a lot of support. I didn't see any experts and grammar, but what are the I can, even though they probably technically the grammarians probably would vote for four pleaded is out. There called commence its religion debate. Another interesting issued a lucky pled, it's more elegant and I guarantee you that your years from now we will end up being played. Could somebody got Tell you urgently red hair and said: go the AP style book says pleaded as if the epistle, because the boy- but I think, that's probably wire with top pleaded anyway? Pretty interesting his or her own yeah, I talk some more

Moving on from plaid, yes to Andrew Mackay recording this on Tuesday morning his book is out. I have not read the book tat. I did watch the sixty minutes. Would you never attempt thirty seven if you have finished reading the valleys two hours for his part of the deal, but he was on sixteen May, and I ve been doing a number of interviews and he's been saying a lot of things. It seems that we should go. We should take a step back. because a lot of the controversy is about what he said Rosa Stein said whether not rod roses said, he would wear a wire whether not there we can invoke the twenty fifth amendment. Yes to me, maybe let's go back to the crazy eight days between the time the gym call me was fired. The president and that rod rose Einstein appointed by smaller, it was

kind of Nazi was insane and you can tell from the caves comments from other comments that have been made publicly, that they were scrambling to figure out what to do and how to address it and one of the interesting things I thought was my cave sense. If we credit this, which I do that his time was also potentially limited, that he had this sort of sense of a ticking time bomb that he could be taken out as the head of the FBI, the acting director at any moment in time- and so you know, there's this side of them- trying to figure out what to do. There's also internally within the bureau, it him scampering to try to figure out like how do we make sure that you and I dont know if you been there, I Jeff, I feel like I've, been there where you think ok, somebody's coming after me, we have investigations that are serious. Let's make sure that there is no appropriately, that their left in a good and a good way. When I walk out the door, what he I think, what he said on sixty minutes was he want to put the Russia case on shore footing, so the key

quote couldn't vanish in the nitrates, pre dramatic way, putting it and also pretty interesting that he was worried about that right I mean that's that to me is telling, and- and I think we have seen law enforcement agencies do that before, particularly if you think about changes in administration, and that there might be a new director coming at a new energy coming in with different priorities and law enforcement does work to say, like look, we have sufficient evidence to be making this case or work in this case, Actually, the story about how I found out about Jim coming being fired so I never thought I would happen. Is it seemed? Would bridge too far, and it was my first speech it and why you lost cool and there are having reception for me and I was being members of the board and I gave a short speech and then there was a question and answer period in the evening and a judge from the east. Strict who have child about the since said to me raises, has no pre hypothetically if the president were to fire Jim COM. What would you think of that? And as well with all due respect, for an that. I don't think that would happen. That seems impossible to conceal.

What s really going on someone else in the audience, save mean and raised his hand and said previous on hypothetical just happened. it's on front of a hundred fifty people we already have already ratified. Like is not a hypothetical but then, but then that evening my and stop bringing the next day I found instead, bringing young people, including members of Congress, were recalling everyone every port in the country seem to one know what was going on and there was there was a day or two or five when anything seemed possible and if you go back- and you remember it was widely believed and sort of confirmed by the president when he d the interview with Lester, halt and said Russia was, on his mind that he had just overnight, obstructed investigation. Obviously there other details. In fact we have to consider, but at that moment tat it looked like the present was capable of anything capable. shutting down anything and so the sort of extreme reactions by rod roses, which I credit data, right. I credit that you were probably happening into one

Things that they claim was talked about, but there's a difference of opinion. We can go through that the phrases the phraseology being is by rod resist, I now was rod. Rose nine. According to some said, he would wear wire when he went to the president. Deeply that's true! So true, so? First of all, I I saw remember where I was when I found out that call me was fired and I don't know if that's true all Americans and everyone here, but it definitely was a moment for me. Were you know a night? I of course, like you know, Jim man, it's just something I never saw coming, and so I also remember just breathing and incredible sigh of relief when I heard that Mahler was the special council, and that was gonna, be it that he was gonna be appointed and in between that weaken, insane weak it. I remember just thinking like how are we gonna get through this as a designation as a government? They let them wearing a wire atrophy reactions to it. First of all,

in a million years, wouldn't really occur to me to think personally about me wearing a wire right and I've had plenty of law enforcement agents where wires it just it's not the first thing that will come to my mind and disputed. It's pretty train rang a crazy though in the following sense and atolls remember times when the call me two days before ended up being fired, and I thought about returning the call rejoinder within a week we considered right, recording it like it is Why not for longer than two it's in there. We changed our minds and thought that seems kind of nuts recorded press United States but you know when we set it in the room where we thought I would want. from the call, but to be safe and to make sure that for posterity, the conversation was preserved, I wasn't joking when I said- and I might say later, if things calm down, which I think is what happened here, as we have always period, you had wrought sign- and I don't know it- I know vinyl rod and I also know any Mackay by I go. I should state for everyone

nope endemic, going back in two thousand to two thousand three. So sixteen seventeen years he was an agent of the agent in New York on em on a squad. Did Russian organised crime case and so we think about endemic whose background in part he has been an expert on the line dealing with with russian cry. Yeah a nose. You know eurasian crime very well in those consequences I did with him and his colleagues on that squad. So I credit anaemic came in and it may be the case that it was not set ingest, but now Months later, when things have come down little bit in the minded rod, Rothstein others he's characterizing, though statement indifferent way, I don't know sudden just that in their. There are two reasons why, first of all my cave said that he said it twice, and so once thank you, and I would think while it could be jest or throw away line that he said twice is its very different. The second thing is that others too, there are two other things actually one is that

rose and sign statement said he never authorized. Anyone to wear wire. Cracked like he doesn't, is a resource that really prepared if you're innocent there is. I never said where I would wear wire. You'd say that's completely false and instead, he sort of is lawyer, lay in his language and basically says I never authorize anyone to Terroir. But the second piece, which I think is also pretty important, is that the and Here I would sort of push my cable little bit on and how credible he is in what he says. He says I never considered it, but he went to his general council and he discussed it with his executive team So there is at least a moment. You know he really in credit at all. He doesn't talk to the gc, the General Council and his executive there's a moment, at least that they're all trying to figure out what to do, and so he even floats that to his folks, who I soon could corroborate Mackay

version of events. Look it's also our creating the following sense. If you're investigator in you think that something bizarre is happening, and you think that the president might be compromised, which is in some people, think that at this moment These are all your options and you and you put them on the table, and you mentioned them and maybe two percent in the same way with the phone call. What does not quite parallel, but we consider The variety of things, including recording the phone call having a witness then ultimately decided not to do any of those things in here. Clearly they ultimately I did not do any of those things does mean it didn't happen. With respect to the twenty fifth amendment and its invocation, I slightly believe that was talked about. Also angry and probably also not. and if you look it, if you look at the the official response by the OJ to the sixty minutes, interview. It's just like the the wearing a wire. He says, as the deputy trade general previously stated, based on his personal dealings with the present, there is no basis to invoke the twenty fifth amendment

the dead in a position to consider invoking twentyth of member, what is really unto the question? Does it made the deck doesn't have the authority, which is true? It's not the deputy attorney general means that every attorney general doesn't have the authorities do it, nor does he think he currently right now is unfit for office under the twenty fifth. And you can even even endemic Abe, and this has gone as much play even his spokesperson certain verify at no time did Mister Mc Cave participate in any extended discussions about the use of the twenty fifth amendment. Nor is he aware of such tests. right. It's there sitting in a room and their sprawling on what are really touring the craziest time in their in in either of their lifetime and law enforcement. Right I mean, I think, it's fair to say for what they have both been through. This is probably, while I mean, let's take out sort of nine eleven and terrorism tax, but in terms of dealing with the executive branch, there's probably this is completely

precedent for both of them and their just throwing around ideas and rose and seen in particular, does seem to have been just throwing everything at the wall right and just sort of an ultimately. He comes in conclusion. I think to two point: the special Council, Robert Mauler, which, as you know, with the right results have come out of this while he was doing it in port. I think because he was really I'm your personal basis the rod? Rothstein was- and I would be also incredibly rattled- stressed under pressure- yes, not just because the president may have compromised and he was too. many things, but also because he himself came under enormous fire completely because, still. He wrote that silly memo purporting to justify the firing of Jim call me that than the present seized upon the grounds who restated in

that he'd mistreated, he'll reclined. Nobody believes that was the basis for Jim, coming being fired right at all and so to make things right. He's like he guy, I'm gonna, give you guys by Mahler. Yet don't you think one to one of the things I thought was so interesting about the Mccain Interview with him talking about when ride rose and signed wrote the memo that Trump wanted rose assigned to put in men, of Russia to basically connects all these pieces together right into basically sort of argue com has gone too far in the rush investigation. Rosen sign refuses to do it because he thinks that obstruction. To basically say this has anything to do with Russia, and he doesn't want to be part of any effort to obstruct justice and to basically you know, to criticise or fire call me because of that he Trump says whenever I still wanted end. Rosen signed doesn't put it in, but then Trump talks to lesser hold on We see news in Russia rightly puts it in that way, but I actually think that much more compelling. That's a huge piece of evidence on the obstruction question, because it's not just to throw away like a lesser huh

any by and I didn't think it was. I thought it was a series of Leicester Hold, but if not true, if it's true you're, not just one instance where the President saying I'm connecting this to Russia, it said he'd spent a week before trying to commence a deputy attorney general to connect it have. You can but reflects on rod roses goin to me it seems a little bit nefarious, so he wasn't really duped right into writing was memo. He put some thought effort into what was appropriate to put in what was not so it ended. It ends up being even more protection rule than has been discussed before so without any real. He was writing a protection memo. Gaiety totally did he was in some ways trying to protect the president from himself if he you that the president's basis was in part, Russia and

put in the memo cause. He knew how damaging that would be to do. You think that right rose and signed a deputy attorney general wrote the memo, thinking that that, because a lot of people would agree, that call me did not do the right thing in in its handling of the Clinton email announcements right in and sort of how he went to the MIKE twice. So do you think that was? I wrote the memo thinking while people are gonna be with me on this? Yet you know I don't know my view is that it not a good job. He did knowing what the the reason for the memo was and that he was searching for you know a basis credible basis to say that you can call me had you know. Tran his role and had usurped rule the Justice Department in it done other things that were not proper. I think in his favor. He may not have appreciated that his memos can be used as be all and end all for the justification for firing. Jim call me right.

that that he was gonna be made. The marked man and and his reputation by Parson reputation serve to undermine democratic president. Welcome President Europe look in appointing and they were the other basic everything to use his history, in the legal community and in the law in force in the community as as a basis, and he felt used as I think you didn't fully predict how much he was gonna be on the hook for it. So sessions could have written the memo that ultimately was written. Right I mean if Russia is involved. Sessions was refused on Russia, so we could not have written out, but the ultimate memo that gets reddened, critical, being critical of colonies. Actions with regard to the health claim investigation could have done by sessions, but to your point, rivals in science reputation the legal communal, at that time, particularly was very high in very strong by parts away session. Not globally went from GO wanted him. It went from like into a two yeah I pass and he asked and then you know he's like how do I get back up to seven or eight cannot say he thought about this way, but in retrospect you can look at it this way.

He's a guy. You know it's gonna get me back up to seven or eight professionally in certain circles by Mahler. Here's the other crazy thing that Mikhail said about the president, and I wonder if you, if you could, and on the question of whether not North Korea Certain quality missile, his intelligence agencies were saying one thing and then, according to my cave, is it. I don't care, I believe, Putin, I've already agreed

It is unbelievable and I think we can offer that both as a fact, but also as part of the justification to open up the counter intelligence investigation into the president. There's one piece of that which I want to be a little bit cautious on, is that everything else my cape says seems to be first hand, and this meeting Mackay was not personally out. He had one of his senior folks at the meeting in so we ve all playing the game, play the game of telephone, and so I think we should be a little cautious of did Trump actually say I trust Putin regardless. It does seem very clear that Trump went against yet again and we ve seen this. We ve seen this and other in other contexts, but he went against the intelligence community, his intelligence community to basically side with the view that has no basis, in fact, as known to the intelligence exports, which was clearly sort of being pushed by Putin or somebody else, and so I find that unbelievably problem.

I back the other thing that my cave said and he articulated, I think really well, and I struggled particularly this and I wonder what you think about it. Nobody has to prove why the president has done anything, but I still am really fascinated by the question of what would motivate him, particularly in the face of it. You know all this national scrutiny from the moment his campaign is running. You know metaphors fired in August of twenty sixteen for having ties to Ukraine and the pro russian government. There are allegations in December and January twenty. Sixteen twenty seventeen about Michael Flynn contacting the Russians and lying about it. So this is all you do is of real, and the present has continued to act in a certain way towards Russia. that just dumbfounded me? You have no, that's pretty having this discussion. That's why it's so interesting. Now, on the other side of the coin, we should just mention that Andy Mackay, who I like things, a decent normal person in word, with closely both as a line prosecutor when he was alive agent, also, as you said, turning when he was a hiring

member of the FBI, but he has some blemishes he does on his record is well. I don't think they justify his having been fired twenty six hours before his pension fully vested, but the off some respect general Michael Horowitz, who someone else. I known also absent penal law of the southern discipline. European were everywhere, founded on a few occasions having three occasions anaemic was misleading about whether or not he given certain information to oppress outlet and Andy. On the sixty minutes, interview and say that his statements were not wrong but says he didn't tension, we lie and, among other things he was under a lot of stress and maybe it and understand the question you I think overall, Mackay Business is an honest person and I credit

most of these other things. He says, but I've heard it's out of at you. I wish he just said in the interview you know. Look I messed up right. I was law enforcement leaks and you- and I have talked about this before it's something. I really do not like by it. It is part and parcel of what law enforcement sometimes sometimes to us again. I think it's incredibly problematic. I don't think anyone in law enforcement should ever leak, but that's less problematic than the fact that you give up It's like just went up to the you know: it's it's the cover up, not the crime, often resolving those people and traps impose, were to be careful about concerning a leak in the mere disclosure of. Nation is not always isn't always illegal. There are sometimes it's totally amazing. This was, but it's totally appropriate. I wore out before the press agent for DA's officer histories officers from the justice to explain something on background to explain. This is white happening in this way.

This is one where the brief was filed at this time of someone is inaccurate, and I heard the case now cannot undermine everyone's right to a fair trial, but it's not a leak right and when I think about a leak I do, and I think it is distinguishable even potential in this case. I do think about a leak as related to an investigation, something that's non pub. information that shouldn't be made public at that moment in time, and so on, on the underlying question of Mikhail here. Trot later fired him anyway, but I personally would have greatly. I would have respected him a lot more if he'd walked in and basically look yeah! Here's what we're doing here. Why did it? I was acting direct and I made a decision that this is how I should proceed in. This is the information I should provide, and so when he said that on sixty minutes I sort of felt like you know, but can we ve been talking so much about false statements? Everybody says this is a matter for said. Why didn't remember everything I forgot some stuff. I wasn't you know it's always this story of. I did my

and at some point, if you deadlines better, just to say look, I did it. I shouldn't have done it and move on I hope you enjoy the sample of a copy insider podcast to hear the rest of the episode become a member. Now a Kapital com, slash insider and get access to all insider content. That's cafe dot com, slash insider.