Hi. This is David Rubinstein. The host of the New York, historical society's new podcast for the ages join me as I explore the rich and complex history of the United States with a nation's foremost historians and authors. Listen to for the ages, wherever you get your podcast, this episode is brought to you. My own up, every bank says they ve got great. Morgan's ranks, Why are people paying billions of dollars and extra interest every year, because it's too hard to know what a great deal looks like for? You are unique scenario owner makes it easy to get the personalized data to help you make a smarter home financing decision, learn when a great looks like for your mortgage, so you never over pay bills. Your profile today, at o, not dotcom, equal housing opportunity and am Ls Idee number one. Four five await o five from covered. Welcome to stay tuned are prepared I think that there is a way. Ground out there for a day

got nominee to ignore Trump. Just talk about America is. Not how great it can become it was, but how great it is that's former Senate Majority leader Harry Reed, I speak with him about it, long career in the Senate, and control of an unruly Caracas, and that time he put a monster in a chuckle. That's coming up stay too hasty to and listeners throughout the past year? You heard me talk about the ups and downs of writing. A book you ve been here whole time on this often arduous journey, so join me in the final say, and pre order, your own copy of this labor of love at doing justice, book dot com. Actually, maybe it's a good Valentine's day present for the people in your life who loved justice you'll find various options. What do you need your two day shipping or wanted from your favorite local independent

seller and for those of you who become accustomed to my voice in your ear, there's an audio books order now at doing justice, book dot com and the book or audio books will be on its way to you. This march, nineteenth. Ok,. let's get your questions. This question comes from twitter from user, be Lancet at B lancing, one hundred who makes reference to in your times article that's entitled Trump inaugural. many ordered to hand over documents to federal investigators by Maggie Hebron, Ben protests and the tweet simply says. Please pod this hashtag aspirate interesting use of the verb pod. So I guess what you mean is: could you explain what the hell is going on with his article? So first, if you haven't you, its article the talks about a subpoena issued by a grand jury in connection with a southern district of New York Investigation mild office into

perhaps misconduct or bad behaviour or fraud or other kinds of things having to do with present trumps inaugural committee, to read one paragraph from the article which sword summarizes what the subpoenas looking for dinner time says the following: the subpoenas ex documents related to all of the committees, donors and guests any benefit handed out including tickets and photo opportunities with President federal disclosure filings vendors contracts and more one of the people said when people familiar with the inquiry. So a couple of things off the that first, it's abroad Anna as commentators have been saying. So I think that's interesting, but not crazy, interesting at the beginning, when investigation, when you don't know where the trails will lead, we don't know what the violations might ultimately be because you have all the evidence. Yet you generally issue a fairly broad subpoena. You want, ensure that you have everything you want to make sure that the recipient Subpoenas case inaugural committee officials, don't have

excuse to say: well you didn't ask for that, because you only asked for this, so you wanted me to have a broad. I think I have it for your subpoena. It doesn't mean by the way that anyone necessarily committed a crime. It doesn't mean that prosecutors in the southern district are pretty certain that any particular person, including the comedian committed any crime. It's it's possible quite frankly that in some ways the committee could be the victim of a crime because it looks like there are reports of self dealing of exorbitant fees being charged to the committee by people who had some relationship with the president, and maybe they got milk is also possible. And other reporting, and especial reporting in this article- that there are people on the committee who have committed crimes were suspected of committing crimes the possibilities are based on the article of the kinds of crimes that I expect prosecutors will be looking at or illegal foreign donations. If your phone if we not not to contribute to a campaign campaign nor you allowed to contribute to an inaugural committee and the question will become not only

was an unlawful for some outside foreign entity or person to have contributed to the inaugural committee. But did the inaugural committee itself knowingly accept such funds, in which case they might be guilty of a crime to and that the particular request, according to the article, that's interesting to me in this regard, is it. The prosecutors are clearly looking for information to show knowledge on the part of the folks on the inaugural comedian, times, you know people can say well, I didn't know what the source of the money was. We didn't check people's background as carefully as we might have. The article says that one of the things prosecutors are asking for our documents laying out legal requirements for donation. So the theory, I guess would be if you your committee had in his files documents that made it clear what the parameters were and the people were being trained on that

it's much harder to say. We didn't know that saudi arabian officials or saudi arabian citizens or russian citizens couldn't donated inaugural committee, so goes to what the people's knowledge was another's. Unquestionably is what set the southern district on this path. The inauguration was over two years ago and there been rumours about issues relating to you the committee based on reporting in various outlets. I know that they have begun, based on other reporting that some investigation with respect to the inaugural committee some months ago. But a lot of time has passed and you wonder if one of the triggers was Michael Collins cooperation. Now we know that Michael Colin did not get a signed cooperation agreement with the southern district of New York because they didn't think he was the worst cooperate or in that regard, but he did spend hours and hours both with southern district prosecutors and also with especial councils, lawyers as well, and nothing prevents the southern district from four

doing things that they were told about by Michael, come and even if they think he's not worthy of a cooperation benefit so interesting to think as the story unfolds. What prompted the subpoena at this time, but surely to say where it will go and take a perhaps with a grin assault based on my profile, pride having overseen the office for one, it's an independent place and this investigation is not going anywhere and it may not go anywhere because if action law may not ultimately supported but but that's separate from whether or not some outside force can put the kibosh on. That has a very, very difficult thing to do. Governor Christie himself, in promoting his book over the last few days, has said words to this effect. The end of special council's jurisdiction is fairly circumscribed. Its narrow

and is directed towards interference in the TWAIN. Sixty election and other things that may arise from the course of the investigation, whereas the southern disk of New York can investigate anything. I think that the president and others members of the campaign, people the inaugural committee, would be hard pressed to complain that its political investigation, because we never did those things in the first place, but also because he was attorney in the southern district of New York- was handpicked by President wrapped himself said office operate independently and they'll follow the facts and apply the law, and they will check every box and she's, not a metaphor in turn over every rock, because that's what they do. I pray you, Sir, when I believe that in New York City I'm calling for the question that I hope he could address that judicial retirement from the federal bank, where a judge is very young, for example,

I'm thinking of Catherine for it, to my surprise, having been appointed by President Obama and learned that she'd returned to private practice. I would be interested if you can stress why judges retire early judges, don't get a lot of attention. They don't give a clay become famous in what they do is extremely important and they're so very different from one another so think alike by Luis thanks to your question is a good one and there's no standard answer. It depends on the person. You know some people stained jobs forever. Some people have to switch jobs. There are judges who come to the bench early and serve for a number of years and leave for private, Agnes you're federal judges actually make a very good salary. You know in the broad scheme of things,

but if you're living in Manhattan or living in Washington DC or some other places, the opportunity cost for some lawyers who become judges is high and they could make no ten, literally ten to twenty times the amount of money in private practice. It can be lonely depending on what court your on, if it's, the district court level, the trial court level versus the appeals level, you dont have a big of a peer group and sometimes people like you to leave. For that reason. Some time blood change, family circumstances and sometimes people just don't like to do the same thing for a long period of time. I agree with you that the work of federal judges is incredibly import. And one of the reasons that they can do the job, They do in one of the reasons they can be independent and would stand political winds and pressure from politicians even up to the president is that the constitution gives them a lifetime appointment now. What are not people see

set light time. Appointment is another thing I will say by the way, on the flip side of your question as to why some judge asleep early. They said the different question, which is: why do some judges stay to the bitter end? We sometimes see that with the Supreme Court, which is the choicest appointment, you can have to a federal court anywhere in the country, obviously, and the other judges who spend. I think a few too many years, and I had that experience as well. It's up to the individual judges. By the way the incidence of federal judges were like tenured, leading the band before their done before the ready for full retirement is pretty rare. Although it happens more than happens at the Supreme Court level and may be. The reason for that is at the trial court level in a one judge is important, but one drugs does make the difference in the world, because her other judges in cylinder of New York, for example, there are dozens of trial, judges and

see all the speculation about whether not Ruth Bader Ginsburg will retire, and they was reporting that Justice Kennedy a weighted to retire until I feel comfortable to the replacement, will be somebody who'd, be sort of hospitable to and would walk in his shoes because of that level who makes the replacement appointment matters whether it's in a president trump the next president, that consideration applies a little bit less in the thinking of people who're on their district court level or the trial court. You know who would judge is matters and people have different personalities and different interests and different issues in their lives, and that will determine how long they say. Thank you. A question. Question comes from a tweet from Barbara Lambert who says hashtag ask since one has the right to a speedy trial. How might it be advantageous,

defend to wave that right. I'm thinking about stones attorney agreeing to waive the right so that the prosecutors can go through. All the seized evident seems counter intuitive Barbara thanks for your question, to the lots of reasons why once where the other might want to proceed more quickly or less quickly. Somebody depends on them and this data. Duration of the once, under the other that the phrase and mild office, whether it was true or not was the government is always ready and we always try to present ourselves in court are not always but tried to say at the first appearance. We can proceed as quickly as the court wants, because, presumably you d know your investigating and you have all your ducks in a row. Otherwise you wouldn't have been indicted the case now in practice that wasn't, I will cheer secret with. You was not always completely true. Sometimes you arrested someone on the criminal complaint because you had to because they were going to flee or because the investigation was gonna become public and you may be wanted to do a little bit more

and sometimes you have to do some of that additional investigation and chest and other leads even after you make the arrests, which is why sometimes you rest someone on a criminal complaint as opposed to an indictment not get too legalistic? It's the indictment that starts the running of the speedy trial clock in fair even though there are other time limits, also on how long someone can be in custody or under arrest under a criminal complaint. So that's sad. Sometimes it's in the defendant's interest to be able to prepare properly for advance to take more time, and so sometimes the speedtronic lockets told at the request of the defendant. Defendant wants to have the opportunity to review discovery, but usually, if it's the voluminous figure out, what motions here fuming up might want to make, and sometimes I can take a while. Sometimes they won higher experts to, depending on the extensiveness of discovery, defend its gonna, be able to review it, and you might sometimes say well, if its material from the defended himself. What's the need for them

or cautious, lawyer and a smart lawyer knows it here. She might not get the full accounting of what is an immaterial directly from the defendant, and in this case I think there are multiple terabytes of information that the government is declared That is a sees, because a special council office did a number of searches of residences, of Roger Stone and obtained devices as well Roger shown himself has said whether you believe it or not he said: he'd never deleted. Anything is kept everything so, the amount of material is gonna, be very large and is not necessarily unwise for his lawyers to say they want to delay the they can put in the time and effort to reviewing everything to mount the most careful defensive they can, other hand there? Sometimes people who want to go directly to trial, sometimes political officials who have been charged. This was true in that had Stevens case the former senator from Alaska. want to go to trial right away to clear their name, and you know, they'll take their chances, are not having quite ass much time to review discovery or come up with their best motions because they have an interest.

Lifting the cloud as quickly as possible and there's another reason also, which is sometimes too dependent on particular persons. Psychology. Some people like to delay the moment of reckoning so for defending whose to trial. If you're out on bail, you're lucky enough to be out on bail the longer the trial is put off them, or you have the opportunity to walk around free hand to breathe in the free air in the world, as opposed to being in custody, now People who are actually in custody so you're you're in jail pending trial, they tend to want to go to trial more quickly. If you're worried you gotta get convey There are some people who want to get it over with serve their time and get out people who tend to be low but older. In my experience, sometimes are not in any rush to go to trial at a convicted and go to prison. So. One or more of those considerations could be in the minds of Roger stolen, his attorney but impossible for me to say my guess,

week is the former Senate Majority leader Harry Red, who reflected his long career and public service, and what a remark career. It's been, he was born into a poor family I did as a security guard and capital hindering law school in return, years later, as a democratic congressmen for Nevada. He went on to spend decades in the Senate and let the democratic it is through some very tumultuous years. He was diagnosed with pain get a cancer in two thousand eighteen, really honored. If you took the time to speak with me last week, we look back at the presidency, worked with how he kept his party in line and how he flipped the Senate. From Republican to Democrat in two thousand and six, and we look ahead to the twenty twenty race and America's place in the world, that's coming up stay tuned.

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we all know, there's more news to come: mothers, investigation, congressional hearings and the impending presidential campaign, so we hope you'll join us as an insider on what promises to be a wild ride. Rest assured this to an podcast will continue to be free, but the Cathy Insider Membership service allows you to support our work, so we can keep doing what we do so go to cafe: dot com, slash insider to become a member. Today, that's cafe dot com, slow, insider senator red. Thank you so much for being on the show its real honour for me for this. I know we haven't met and had a long conversations but closely. In the same building we Lord had some influence of. There China from New York, sender Sumer? We have so, I feel feel I know you very very well. It's a real treat for me, given that, fourteen years ago, almost to the day, I started as a staffer on this budgetary committee as chief counts.

Senator humor and you were the democratic leader at the time, and you know it's hard to Prague. the first time you sit and leaders office in the capital. And you were there and senators humor and I think Senator Durban and in a couple of others, talking, whatever issue of the day and if you re a young lawyer sitting in a room like that for the first time you gonna have to pinch herself No wait, like I usually had with me. Durban, Shimmer and Murray right. Each of the senators often one staff, member and you had your chief count- often run white, who became very good friend of Mine dean of a law school now and it's and it seems like yesterday, anyways. I am so grateful to have the opportunity to be able so with you here for a while. I'm ready to go so long industry, something a very difficult question. You ready you that what is the correct way pronounced the name of your homestake. I know people get trouble because I say Nevada, but I always tell people don't worry about it.

Lawyer by naming Neil Gallants was a trial ire and he won millions and millions and millions of dollars talk in about a juries. Any We're said anything other than Nevada. So my point is wits. Spill any Reigate mean snow CAP and I don't know how you pronounce it. But if you wanted to be technically correct, you go into that, will not technically correct just Nevadas like it there ok and how are you I'm doing? Fine good, that's excellent, to hear you ve had a living life and not everyone may know your history and your early days in your youth. So I want to talk about that a little bit, but your biographies sure you wrote a book called the good fight hard lessons from searchlight to Washington. So Searchlight Nevada is your hometown and you were born not into

Were you no? Not really. I wasn't too no but term at the time going up. I didn't feel why was poor, It was until I was an adult and my brother who passed away at a very young age? His daughter was going through some pictures of her dad had and someone had me in them. I looked at that picks on those pictures I couldn't believe I was raised in that I mean I couldn't believe I repeat, for the second term, what up. squaw was, I mean, Gee whiz. Look at that housing, where I was raised on the wooden steps going up to the front door, It was pretty bad. I didn't realize until I was don't leave me, I didn't have a so good as a kid in what is your father do my dad was a hard rock minor, but by the time during World war, two I was alone lobe, tiny boy,

mining seized because a war, and then, after that, when there was a much, the number one business in searchlight was growing up was prostitution there were as many as thirteen brothels at one time is politically incorrect. Word today they were all referred to as the girls. They were prostitutes, and that's. What's your site was all about on pay day for the military bases, searchlight was very very busy cars coming overrun some many uniform anyway. So that's what You make that as a kid. I meant nothing to me at the time I thought of place had bordello I didn't know what happened, but I have one distinction to no one. No one has ever held seat in the United States Senate or by any other political seat can claim. I learned to swim in a whorehouse swimming pool. I was the man whose name was really Martello. He was there

biggest bordello and searchlight. He built a they only swimming pool and searchlight was very, very nice. and that's where learn, to swim and have about your mother. What did she do? My mother took him wash seizure. Whose why she did she did work for the dealers, em The ladys of the evening did you ever wonder if your political view and or your career might have been different? Had you been born into wealth? For me,. Being a person who loved labour unions loved the fact that People need to organise that was just who I was so. I've always cut em identified with that part of my existence. Rather than now I lived in the rich hotel in Washington. I was always very happy that I could tell people that I had some because I was raised with nothing and I was so fortunate.

I was a brand new lawyer and one of the very prominent wires The history of Nevada was a guy minimise law Swain Louie winner. He walked in holding court. So to speak, Look at me as an organism. Listen young man, there's one! telling you. What you should do is invest only an undeveloped realestate. These are his exact words You can piss on it as much as you want it doesnt matter, because all you have to pay the taxes, and I took him at his word, and so I start investing fifty dollars a month and I was able to put my kids all through school five. Oh, I feel very fortunate. You did not grow up in a religious household. You once said it wasn't a case that there is a little bit of religion,

there was not even ten percent religion, it just wasn't part of of life, but then you found religion in college. I left home, one is about thirteen and lived with people, and I had the good fortune of being befriended by some very nice people. I was a kid from Sir like that, had closed, ordered from catalogue, surgeon, Roebuck, but people were nice to me, people with nice to me where some of the big shots in this and they were Mormons most of em I always say the most important election I ever had. Was it as a junior in high school. I was elected junior class treasure. That may sound like a bunch of nothing tat people listening here, but for me this young kid from searchlight. I felt that I had been finally accepted by my peers. They have elected me. Do office. There was a milestone in my life. With my background, how did you win? I'm never m o my political,

Success has never been based on my good looks my oratory, pizza hell out of me, but I won and in your transition to to being able to disperse in converting to Mormonism. Well I, when I was a freshman in high school, is more on boy. Said one should come with me and these early morning meetings scald Seminary he said in a lot of good, looking girls there. and last, but at last, less than an hour, so I went with him. So anyway, I went away to college. You toss State University Why am I marry between my more junior college him. We found the church, be something that was good for us? I'm This fight with the religious. change that I made as a young man having happened as well, and maybe this was the result of your successful candidacy in high school politics. You better

it's pretty young. I soon, as I got out law school, I was a point appointed. Not only can jump, pointed city attorney for the city of Henderson two years that that job some We came to me and they sat down. County hospital is corrupt. We want you to run, So I won the election Two years later, I decide run for the assembly. Time they elected eighteen in the Mary, can you imagine that we have had reinforcement south of the democratic will raise for twenty one, that's right on the democratic sign, so I won and you're right. I was young Yes, I Andrews First pollution legislation, gun control legislation which haunted me locked during my career, but I and then I decided ok I'll run for lieutenant governor was,

Lieutenant governor. I was very, very young. You were thirty right now, that's right! I was then appointed with my Michael killing was my high school teacher and my mentor he pointed University Gaming Commission, which was a very, very interesting time cost you a couple questions about the early like, as you have said. The one of the things I got you into politics was other people's rudeness, True, that's that's actual. I ran for that's. Why ran for the hospital bored, so you go in the House it'll and they're just obnoxious to you and said they said, here I went in there. I represent a guy Numa Darker, Thomas Newman. They had some. Minister railing against him, and I went in there with them senior partner. My little law from the Actually, this is actually what documents and said. The guy eventually be. He said we don't know me. lawyers here we do. We want to do and ass. I said to myself that time, I don't know what I can do, but maybe someday I gave in with this guy and I got it

Nor am I being hampered the you to get even with people will I ways. I always think. If you pick a fight, you should win it. So that's worth, but that was important here. the fight he lost, and I want it. So you became too the game in commission this time period. This is in the late seventies rights under a try, seven thousand seven hundred and nineteen Sherman the Gaming Commission, seventy seven, eighty one, my favorite story from that time and You'Ll- appreciate why this is my favorite story, given what I used to do for a living which is prosecute people in particular the corruption so you're, the a gaming commission. There's lots of corruption going around and there's a gentleman who offered you a bribe and rather than accept it, you did something that a lot of people we wish would do more of. You went to the FBI you'll. Let me tell you what happened there. I was at home and I got a call from a guy. I am a daily and he was a political groupie. Frankly, I didn't have much respect for him, but he called me

I just didn't think call sounded right raises were made that I would accept his bride. Key word was: is this the money when I said that the day was coming and arrest. Everybody, I said: is this the money and these bandits had locked the door behind them? Finally, that got around and opened the door may be. I came in now. I was so mad at that time. It's now. This is not many anything them I'm especially proud of, but I did it. I put I put a chokehold on that I did try to bribe me. They deprive off him. I his face was during blue. I was so mad that they thought they could break and they all were they all were convicted parliament. I love the stories I mentioned is we did a lot of public corruption prosecutions in particular people in the legislature in New York. And I can tell you one time then. I am aware that some was offered bribe and got angry

who angry they tried to choke the bribery, because it was an insult to the elected persons integrity. So I dont condone the chokehold, but but I pray I appreciate the impulse, which is supply today. Well, you'd be surprised how our chokehold get somebody's attention really fast. I'm sure did, to those listening at home. We don't advise you, u choke people who try to bribe you, but we do appreciate the indignation you feel when someone thinks that they can buy you off, and people of integrity should always feel that indignation, and we see it often enough. In fact, let's fast forward a little bit too, when you became a, U S, senator how'd, you feel compared to winning student president. When you're in high school, my joy came when ass likely to the House of Representatives. I spent two terms in the house: but for me having been a kite capital policeman, it was wonderful for me to be in the house.

Office buildings and I patrolled I was gratified I was self. so much fun. I always remember those days and weeks before Relations committee, science, technology, that's where I met my friend for life. Al Gore, I was elected to the Senate having lost to raise a number of years before that, my five hundred twenty four votes it was coarse, remarkable and then do serve all those years I did in the Senate ass? I looked back up some raising that someone what my background and my abilities could serve that time and three years in the Senate Foreign House. What's the difference between serving in the House of Representatives versus the Senate is if you like, a promotion like it, the big leagues or does it seem like distant a small group of people? Yes, but I feel any one that served in the house: a meal becomes a better senator when their elected, because you under The house palaces not that easy to understand your story,

Thirty five members here friendships house or developed with your committees and the Senate. That's just the opposite. certainly do a lot of stuff with committees, but your actual work in the Senate. Lot of a takes place on the second floor, cause there's only nine and other people did you think members of the house become better friends with each other than members of the Senate? No, I think it's about the same house I served only four years, but friends, there were no less important to me than those in the Senate years into his time in the Senate. My former boss and your for league centres humor when he worked out in the morning didn't work out in the Senate, Jim as people may know, he worked out of the house to him. Chuck Schuman. I have a great relationship and I think it's important. You know him well, and you will appreciate this perhaps more than your list But maybe not when I was elected leader, remember that came kites quite surprising.

Because Dashwood, no international, we beat so I and for leader and was elected unanimously, no that I could not do a good job unless, he had some help could be more help than anybody church. That's what I was gonna get in touch nine. We know each other, but I'll. Just pals anything like that, so called in my office. I said: Durham. Chuck here's? What I want you to do. I want you, beheaded Critics and of your campaign me that fundraising arm of the Senate and that's where the recruitment takes place. There was at the beginning of two thousand five right. Yes, is it important to to work with people and bill teams where the members of the team or different have different personalities. That's again were shimmer came in. I had Durban. My whip shook her head of the Caucasus and Petty Murray Sector, the carcass

but I had Durban, Schuman, Murray, come to my office, sometimes for five times a day, I wanted them to know what I was doing. I wanna Darien put in what I could do to improve it. parliament. I realize this, but I remember you know working on judiciary issues for senator humour in I was spending time with him, you and he would speak, adding sometimes tend to mean in person before five times a day and on busy days, but sometimes you guys would talk ten eleven twelve times starting early morning in ending into the evening lander, my wife and I was his wife used to show that we spent farm more time together than we did with him. sad stories. Probably true we're being in meetings talk about additional asian or a bill, a crime bill or something in the senators office and in the course of one meeting there might be several phone calls between you hate you, He would stop in the middle of a meeting and realise that you want to go over something.

you and the meeting would stop in in the two of you would discuss well My theory of this is, I think, I'm right my Dr Oriana Gauge was Michael call him and he said: listen, you can buy anything. You want, except one thing loyalty. You have earned that and I have always believed that and that's what I set out to do How does the leader of a carcass whether in the minority or the majority, had he keep unity in the Caucasus? I had my three lears. I always had their support. How did I keep piece in the car? by their knowing what we were doing term castle she, this last time she was a wonderful senator. Somebody was interviewing Hershey. I want to read once tone. I wasn't there support him, And what do I say to her? I said Clara. I appreciate that very much your at least on us most field.

have the nerve to come and tell me that that's kind of how it looked at things if someone like what I was doing, tell me what is going wrong. She wouldn't do that. You talked about the friend you made and it's nice to hear that, because I guess one question people who have never served in the Congress is: do people will form genuine friendships, oars, everyone always looking over their shoulder, Dick German, Czech Patty Murray. Those three people will be in my heart forever, but there are others Pat lay hey, who still serving the Senate these approaching eighty years old. In all these for sure Barbara boxer She- and I always referred to harass my sister I didn't have brothers and one time I wrote a letter and put appears on it. This is for I never had we still talk, so I made friendships for life and they were senators. I've worked what about friendships across the I'll? Do those things happen,

yes, of course Richard shall be here, and I still talk. Should we in offices next it Nord each other and the house? certain house. I think the world of him. I could lots and lots of good. You know I mean Conway have wanted disagreements with Mitch and he knows that the meat My friend, I have lots of friends on the report concerning I just want before we get to the current day, talk about something that is a big deal in my life as a staffer, so you become the democratic leader in five five and there's an election in and six and the Democrats or ten seats down. Having was fifty five, forty five, if I remember correctly, not many people predicted that the Democrats will take over the Senate that there would be a change in power, sending you to be the the majority leader two did you think you would take the Senate back in two thousand: six, no or either did church, homer but we should hope and could the more

After the election, it wasn't clear what the results were in my memory may be faulty, but my recollection is that we know about Virginia. jail and MRS Washington remember Washington and also Montana oh yeah. It has of anger and an end and testers still hang in there teachers- Johannes Love, the guy Gaskell, not he's he's really as a former, he farms, his farm, he and his wife, wonderful, human being, has a boy working in his dad's farm ranch, he was grinding. Hamburger stuck his hand in hand. The grinder and ground off three of his fingers. He's overcome that handicap. most people, don't even know that he's a talented trumped here, then and always feel he pleaded trumpet.

There are a number of senators already declared running for president, but you know back in the mid two thousand. There was a gentleman who showed up with a lot of a flare and with a lot of people, talking name Barack Obama You think back then. Well, you should grant Barack Obama about that, but Everybody knows now when he was re elected? His staff called me and said the present start you Susie gets off of is delivering his except in speech. He told me I would never be present, but for you you're the one who gave me the idea that I could do it. How did you give him the idea I call him into my office and, I said Durham. I think this is some you could do you could you should consider running for president? I laid out the reasons why I thought that he could do it and I was right: do you encourage young people to sort of em? As some of the older people would say,

I say not wait. There turn jump ahead in line you all those kinds of phrases people use, especially in the Senate system. That's mostly based on seniority. You don't get to become a chair of a committee until the other people have died off. I think that people should run when they want to: u run for office when you have it in your heart and you got to do it, I that's why I sometimes look. What should grant people? I don't know if I can, is the money. I don't know. If I can win this district, I don't know if I don't want if you want to run like it over, if you got it, desire to run, go ahead and run so one hole Canada to running now, Remit will could have as many as twenty five Democrats running, and I fresh and to any talk to a lot of them meet with some of them, and I think that the election process, good I don't think, there's any wrong with having a hotly contested

give any view of his newly elected member of Congress. Who is getting a lot of attention for, Her ideas camel hair us you're doing about. I was Now I will look at the common. I was going to say, Alexandria, Cassio, Cortez, Welsh, she's, getting some attention, but remember the democratic carcass in the house is not a Caucasus waiter. left the reason they have the heavy majority. They do have a lot of them. Because one of republican districts they have to be re elected, I have served with a lot of people who are good. But nobody better than Nancy policy. She understands that, so the democratic carcass in house is not far to the left. Its central carcass, in my opinion,

So what's the roles for the people who are more in the left is a role is what we always find kick someone and I don't compare her at all to Bernie Sanders they're two different people, different ideas, Bernie Sanders was good for the caucus. Not everyone was out where he was. most. Everyone was more centrist, but the ideas he developed became part of what. At one time was his idea now, what's the central idea, so there's nothing wrong with that. You have a view on who is among the top. Your strongest people Running for President harangue, now we're like who will represent you mentioned camel hair is a second ago. I have not seen or talk to one of them yet that I find would not make good present. I mean I'm pressed with the field again glad? And my only so I tell everyone of them ass. My opinion, do not run your campaign telling you

everybody how bad Donald Trump is democratically Hence no, then forget about how bury it. You need to have a programme that will show how good you're gonna be in working on poverty, working on maintaining a strong, secure America. Having am foreign service state Department? Is a credit to the world that we have to be part of the international community. So anyway, there's a lot of things that they need to talk about and its not how bad trumpets- and I agree with you- I think- that's actually very important point, because the question is given how dominant trump is every day in the new cycle. Multiple. Cycles a day and the taunting he will do when the attacking he will do in the tweeting. He will do. How do you present your positive vision without getting sucked into the mud? first of all, understand right now,

Tromp at best would get about twenty six percent of the vote less than thirty percent because he gets all the Republicans Heavy Republic, but he was almost all the independents, almost all the independence and, of course, all the Democrats. So I think that there is a wide fertile ground out there for a democratic nominee to ignore tromp. Just talk about America is not how great it can become a great was, but great it is you once said. The trump is not immoral, he's a more his aim. Ordered you mean by that I'm very happy. I came up with that word because that day, the woods traditionary folks cut of forty three hundred percent increase in people asking what the word meant putting aside the dictionary definition. Would it? What do you mean by that? Why a moral issue, or not It is immoral. There

things they know to be wrong. You cheat on your wife, you steal from somebody. That's him. more or less immorality, but someone who is immoral, Cheat on their wife, steel bucks here and there they have no conscience, and he has no conscience. So if you think he's a moral until there's a change, it looks like it might happen in two years, but over the next two years. What is your greatest concern? for the country and how its performing I was originally concerned about our country. I am concerned about it. World this man is a disaster for miracle foreign policy, which is been Seventy years developing, we now have Europe. Nations talking about coming up with their own armies, because trombones you're, not a NATO he's frightened everybody. I'm not. I'm not worried anymore about America Online What about the world

worried about the rule of law. In this country, or do you think that the intelligence agency and alone organs agencies. It's beyond laughable tunnels have tried to determine. How many times trumpets line since it became now. Remember that's just a little over two years last count was near tenth ten thousand alive not exaggeration, lies that's what we have to deal with he, it's amazing that he can have his intelligence folks, testify under oath congressional hearing, and this man says: are you com. They were. They said that they were misquoted, milling, Japan. watching him justify. I think you served in the Congress during the course of five different president's was your one that was most difficult to deal with and one that was most easy to deal with

Do I look back at all the many friends I had with Bush number two Do I wish we had him now compared to what will I ever know what you're gonna get now I mean I feel close to President Carter. He was so smart. He was interested in as Moyer said on tv one night comparing Hinder Reagan, he said. Carter was down there trying to understand what was wrong with it, and they weren't firing. Quite right. Knee was down in the engine room. All Reagan did he was up at the helm all the time in one place else. How do you think people will look at the above a presidency years from now? I think your Mama presidency is can grant a history as one of the best I had the good fortune of being is quarterback during that time

legislatively, and I have nothing but admiration for his morality, his metal, acuity and his basic being. I know if he's a Eugene, but he said it was a fairly new senator and he had given a speech therein. The scent of foreign we went out and your cock a saw nobody out, no one was talking. He was still sitting at his desk. I walked over to him and I said Bruckner was such a sensational, liver and he looked up at me and, as I say in my book, not with no Bosphorus no braggadocio. He simply looked at me and said I have a gift and he has a gift gift of communication. You need look no further. than before he became a century wrote to best selling books. He can write, he can speak. He has a gift of committee

Asian and he will go down as one America's really really good presence. So do you think when Obama said he had a gift and acknowledge that he had this natural gift, but that was a modest statement, you're. What, yes, absolutely wasn't I've said that every time every tonne I've told you told a story, I hope I convey the fact that it was done in modest Now I also right that one of the points, I served under was just so and I do not have the problem with whence keep he would go down as one more of America's top three presidents look at what he did budget deficit reduction. I could put Americana road to financial, I should say economic Vitality for longer than any time in history, the country he did-

without a single republican vote. Gore had to break to tie who great president great forest we have a time when you were in the oval office in you been in the oval office with many different people, as we discussed as president, where you had to be firm or talk back or express anger or irritation or upsetting us in some way. We ve all watched the performance zone tromp with pollution, shimmer yeah. I went to many many meetings, an oval office. They roll dignified the present had an agenda. He went over the agenda with us, never left with art, but I'll ask ass how we feel about what he was doing. So my memories of the oval office, were really good. I especially liked Obama cause he always had

there are always took one- would have to borrow the old phrase from some of the mob movies. It was always business, not personal. Oh yes, you know in on this. Plus you, I admire immensely an ash unconscious. no, but I assume she did the same as I did find out something with the present that I just thought was wrong. I would just call him and talk to him about it or say you mind if I spend a few minutes with you after this I've done then a few times, but I would never bring up in your Olaf something to challenge his dignity. Do you have any major again legislatively or otherwise during your career. Well, either

answer. Is the number one is I voted for the Iraq war? No, I determined very quickly. I was wrong and I certainly did plenty to rectify. But tat was my biggest mistake that I made I was taken in by calling pals presentation. I believe your cake and all stuff was no foundation to it. So less my biggest mistake, I is there something up your most proud of. No, I don't. I don't like to do that. I think that sales have. Do that I did the best I could with the tools. I can ask about some senators, who I think you didn't mention sure in just ask you to give an impression of what they were like or your relationship with them can was like working with them. Bob Doll. I haven't want a memories above devil he never was mean to me. He could be pretty damn tough if you gotten in. Where are you, I think you should be an arrest procedure on the Senate, but

my fondest memory of Bob, don't I got a call from him and he said I want you to go to the rotunda with me to see Danny Danny Danny anyway. So were there very small number of people and we get to the rotunda as local tyranny, Adam stop Danny Danny he's, not gonna, see me in a wheelchair, he was some help was taken over the beer or the casket was again in a way, and he Saluted him with his only could move now. That was something that was a cheerful time for me. That was tearful, yeah or an hatch, worn hatch was so good to me he's a fellow more and he would always tell everybody said I know you're tools build a visa mormon, but your seem to be very good to me. He help me get Joe

is when no one else could get. Judges was happy to have done it. He did it for me. I have an oral inspector aren't aspect and I had a good really ship. As you know, I was one of those helping switch parties. Lateness Greer he was a tough guy to deal with. It was nobody's full, have a TED crews. Ted crews is some. I dont dislike TED crews. I do hope, because beaten running for the sound yeah I read you had a conversation. You talk with Senator Mccain before he passed away. What did you talk about John? I had a long history. We came house together, nineteen eighty two we came to the Senate together. Together and nineteen. Eighty six and John was no shrinking violent. Oh, he was. Do you get me Let me come over and I'm going

in against each other, like kind of stuff Nevada that would have heard me did it that I remember buddy threaten me. So we had so many wonderful conversations told him. I said John I think you pray remember this. I said I gave a speech I could see over there. I knew your coming to get me and he walked over there. and then he said you know what I mean, who don't you he said yeah, I'm gonna kick the shit out of you. I said well, If the role we reverse, I would do the same thing, and we talked about that. That's true, we are, but we did such good things together. This may sound not very important anybody, but it was. me: we had a big new multi. I don't how many hundreds Millions of dollars it costs a new bridges Colorado River. Because a dam was thought to be a terrorist target.

and we need new bridge over that add to make that safer. And so we provide the money and built a beautiful bridge, so I wanted to name it after my mentor, Michael Callaghan, and I was leader at the time. I pretty could have gotten a done because we have been in sing for anybody to pose the sun, funding of Adam I will make it easier, so I went to rail A keen- and I said john- ok on euro and these can be on my put his name on the bridge. I don't make yes, you will put Pat Tillman on so called you who Callin Tillman Bridge that was done in price. Legislative term maybe a minute we got it done quickly when you got sick. I talked to him. I hesitated calling him I called and one answer the phone send him kindly message for Sir Mccain. She said who is, it said, send rate she's talk to him

So that was a Vienna number calls it John and I had ass. He was dying, took a long time for him to die, but we had good times with Lapham shed. Some cares and utterly senator who was a force to be reckoned with in that body was in her Kennedy, TAT Kennedy who had a relationship in a friendship with John Mccain and especially on immigration, and that's one of the issues that I worked on when I was a staffer. What, you make of that friendship that across the aisle I'm in my office here in the Bellagio Hotel in LAS Vegas. I look up here, there's something that I have kept for mass fifty years ago. It's a letter from President Kennedy to me it's written he had not been inaugurated had been elected. You wrote to me, I was a student. You tie State University. I formed the first shelling Democrats club there,

and he sent me a letter and TED Kennedy. He looked at that letter, as am my in the capital reception. and he looked at that letter. He always told that's. That's your signature. Make sure that I know it huddled pan or something like that. So TED Kennedy TED Kennedy Well, don't realize. Peered is booming voice, she's, a very famous man, but he always took the time I am sure with others, as he did with me, me these letters. I call him a love letters something decent, that he, like you would write me a letter, memorable man.

He was a man who saw such tragedy in his personal life, life of his family and out of it he still had this huge heart for public service, and I I remember at one of my Cox's I used have centres come come and and five minutes telling about themselves. You'd be surprised. We spent a lot of time together, but we really on no other personally Amanda Heaven by cut up and talk about his experiences em. He finished. And TAT Kennedy stood and said what you didn't tell me your dad save my life at play. price they were at work. Tat is a TED was always in, till they died because of that plane crash. He said you're dead

paid me out of a burning airplane saved my life when you think about your time in the Senate and the house, do you fondest memories? My fondest memory is Being a joy leaders office for democratic leaders, office there alone has. Was lots of. Time was long lots of time, but there are occasions I just sat there, and these are my memories. I am always how I couldn't put out of my mind her great America's. Why because of a guy like carry red can make it anybody can make anybody can make, and so that's my thought here I wasn't that office had come from where I came from. Can I push you want something since you say that church in a you said in this interview- and you have said

for a quote you, you know, I know my limitations. I haven't gotten where I am by my good looks my of letting ability my great brain, my oratorical skills and yet look what you did. You have to a tribute. That is something. What is it? I thought about that The only thing I can say is: I really appreciate it, people being nice to me from the time I was a boy I just always try to be nice to people. Maybe that help and also do something else. I think I have said this very publicly felt. One of my strong suit. I was able to tell people know that's hard But people admire you for being able to tell people know, and I think that's one reason why caucus appreciatively one reason, because I didn't play games with people. I would tell em

I can't help you with this, but I was willing to do go the extra mile and occasion when I thought it was good for the good for the team so to speak. I don't know, and it's going to hurt to remind you of this- I doubt I don't doubt it. I never happened in the history of the Senate, where anyone did what I did. You may remember. We were tied. Fifty fifty made a republican president, so republican present that meant that through public control, the Senate swipe taught you Jim Jefferson Vermont. I knew it unhappy. I never talk to him. Privately was always on the Senate, for. And one night I want to dash who was the leader democratic leader. I said Tom I got a media morning with Jefferson, should come to town I got another breakfast meetings and will you better come addition? Try to get him switch parties. He came

meeting my here's. The deal I'm make you Jim, I'm charmer their environment, public committee. I have a staff of about fifteen. You switch parties, you become the term you, my German at committee do I know you would love and you have my staff all I'll, keep anybody that's which majority in the Senate and, as I said, and was ever done anything like it before, but that's what teamwork all about me. I know that extraordinary. Let me end with with this when you think about the country and think about what is possible in the country and if, from time to time you say a prayer for the country,

that prayer be that the american people would realise how fortunate they are that we have this democracy that is not going to adjust forever. Just guess we want it to scan exist for the foreseeable future and the future after that. If we work to make it the good country that it is now, I dont, like people, Klaus, in less make Amerika great again. I dont like that work is great right now, our goal, my goal is to make a man keeps Markka great, as it is now said, it read, let me to say it's been or to talk to you. You haven't been a fly in the wall in fifteen years ago, fourteen years ago and watching you work with so many other senators in that very special place that I was an all of em. They serve their even though there are probably never go back. I appreciate your time Well, as it would be good if everyone tat do these. Does these podcast

The reputation you have here well, thank Cura, reputations, irreproachable everybody thinks the worldview, intellectually and simply just being a nice person beggars entered with a very kind of you take her. Thank you lot. That's it for this episode of statehood, thanks again to my guest former Senator Harry read if you like the show great and review at an apple podcast, every positive review, help new listeners find the show Your questions about news and politics, tweet them to me at three Ferrara with a hashtag asked or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty eight that's six hundred and sixty nine. Who for pre or you can send an email to stay tuned at cafe. Dotcom statement is presented by cafe.

Its produce by cat errand and the team of pineapple sweet media, Henry Malagigi, Joel level, generalise bereavement and MAX Linsky the executive producer cafe system. Our supper in a cafe team is Julia Oil, Calvin, Lord, they basking in Japan summit. Our music is by Andrew Dust. I'm prepared statement.