Hey everybody. This is Jason buckling and let me welcome you back to our podcast in conversation with shop, a five plus, season, one was all but the biggest names and business Steep Maddy, Danny Reeves Chip, Wilson, wait till you here who are talking to now proceeding to fill prim ceo aspect works. Myths, founder tv, you hire Qatar counter, have had their hats and trainees, spear, cofounder, Hosea Eggs, Chrysophora cofounder, lower carbon opera area K Theo airship this his in conversation wash up, if I put This episode is brought you by wine dot com, hey. What lovers, tired of staring aimlessly at the wine I'll go to wine dot com and pick the perfect bottle with confidence. Every time, filter your search by price ratings and even chap wine exports for recommendations. It's the world's largest wine stores, deliver to your door, get fifty dollars.

the first order, by going to wind dot com modifying terms apply from CAFE, welcome to stay too. I'm prepared I've been trying the same things for months, always saying the: U S is turning the corner virus, disappearing to a miracle cure for, but You keep turning corners, your actually going in circles. That's Gary Kasparov he's. Perhaps the great chess player of all time he's also a human rights activist and outspoken critic of latin repugnant and the chairman of the renewed democracy initiative a nonprofit that aims Friend, liberal democracies around the world industry we have twenty seventeen, join me on stay tuned to discuss his unusual journey from world champion to russian dissident to his life. In the? U S as an exile. We also

at length about let him and the tactics that are used. So chaos around the globe. So, as we approach this incredibly import, presidential election I wanted to have hurry back in the programme to discuss the state of american democracy and what we can expect in the days and weeks to come. Gary Kasparov. Welcome back to the show, thanks when writing again treat it's been awhile has been almost three years since you ve been feels like yesterday, I dont know I than the last few months. They just change my assessment of time because storm in many many, not years many decades, I'm not sure, was, happen tomorrow next week. Next month's bigger call me this changed our lives. routine is no longer is no longer what it used to be ended.

I never had so much time spent on the ground without flying and traveling since I was twelve, so I had only to treat this year just to back him, in the winter. The one wasn't winder insisted before before the pandemic. So I went to Europe for Rescue of conferences and dare to occurrences and keynote and then was another trip in June. When I flew from New York to Croatia with my family was still staying here, and its it's unlikely that will move again this year. This might make some people who are less accomplished and you feel better, but do sometimes forget what day it is. Yes, it's I I know I have to say that my wife, you know very often reminds me about appointments and and about birthdays its

especially this year. It has to do with. I discovered that for us definitely for me, the time was always connected to to remove so it's It's like time and Space Day Day day wore sort of interdependence and since one no longer moving, you know it's a stupid. Did all the days like you know that all its one gray color. So it's what AIDS Wednesday, whether Thursday, when it's Friday our speakers, we're not going anywhere so yes, one day, just two new eyes being replaced by another credits and the calendar walks scale. Just it's all all the same. Are you playing chess during this time? a little bit of chess, and now we spend so much time on on line The high even play there. Fischer random chess, so called nine. Sixty chess was reshuffled pieces and dominant position. It organised by some loose chest club so face there. All the two players, including while champion it quite poor,

but I just you know, I was quite happy that I could practice my chest under enjoyed, I'm an amateur now in chess, so but I die for which s events and it's very difficult, not to look at the game of chess played played on wine. While you are online almost all day sugar none of you. Aware of this. That we require this on Wednesday October twenty Eightth next week in states there is an election familiar, I dont know because you said you know space and time and you're forgetting things there is an election next week. Are you? Are you aware of this I am aware of this year's, and it's just it's. If if there's a one event that everybody on the planet is aware of its elections either in the United States and the writing about it on my social media. yesterday I was on Anderson Cooper. See and am also I did

working to yesterday regarding the Russo added Everything ever see now, just in the least intellectuals like all the all the roads leads to roll it wrong. So worm Ray every geopolitical issue you discuss. What is Russia Bela Russa, European Union aid, Affairs saw Warren and Nagorno Karabakh, its ends up with ok, who will be in charge after November. Third, yeah. So I'm going to remind you of something you said posted on social media the day before the election and twenty? Sixteen actually quote from you in my book, and you said the day before quote that nervous feeling you have about tomorrow: Americans, that's democracy, working unpredictable elections, what a luxury and then after Trump one in surprise victory. You wrote quote Trump election is greatest proof of democracy. You dont know the results in advance. End quote: are you have

same feeling of nervousness. oh yeah, nor is this bet it sir I'd say it's if it's a different reason now, so I in Kosovo. Sixteen I wanted to remind Americans about the deep crisis value of free elections and- and I think it's it was disappointment that their meals a million Americans decided not to vote. Actually, This number was greater than that, the greater than than a vote received by Hilary or bye bye by tromp. So for? If no vote was was a candid. it thousand, have won a landslide victory. I thousand and sixteen Hopefully, this year situation is changing, but Now I m a few is nervousness because what we saw were last four years- and you can definitely look at some of my tweets and comments made after drums, from where I warn Americans about from busy not just from the trunk prison as

political file threatening the very foundation of american democracy. Because, as I warned Americans most of our most of these american institutions, actually all institutions they relying on some kind of a court of honour on traditions on political customs. People did things because ever did before and they didn't make things because nobody has died before and it was considered to be inconceivable. That somebody could break These are two hundred plus your tradition and Trump actually thou Wert. You must try to exploit all these loopholes and Andy the weaknesses of the system, because some peace attitude was simple. Sue me as long as it's not a unconstitutional I can't move forward. Sometimes it could be an unconstitutional, but as long as you can have these cover or for political protection, provided

to buys you been able or house forced and that now in the Senate, so here that Turkey would be immune to do any thing political risk, now. My nor this is based on the fear that, if to sell since the election proved or confirmed, drums political style to start to twenty twenty. If God forbid, Trump wins could accelerate his political practices and that might arise. Serious consequence format democracy and them as much As you know, I appreciated the pricing result. Resolve electoral Tucson succeed as a sign that democracy is alive. I'm afraid that transfiguring might take these surprise from new elections to come So you deal in probabilities and you're a very keen observer of american politics. Even if your in Croatia at the moment, do you dare to make any prediction about next week there three options,

Everybody says it S. One adding to highlight the trump winds are not the popular vote, but a little which I think is a highly likely, and I don't think it's something that we should be seriously rate of, though, we remember Tucson. Sixteen sixteen understand that the poles Poles may not be as accurate as as we thought, but I think now that these supply surprised element has already had been incorporated in all these forecasts show I think the two most likely outcomes One is that Biden with Landslide and by the end of that light of November thirteen November force, you will know the outcome specially Eve, there Arizona a the two states, or at least one of them- to state worthy absentee by and the early votes are being counted as we speak and that That's the best outcome. Another one is just it's cloaks.

I still willing, but it's not as convincing and he's victory where, we will be hang on the balance of the votes that we counted later, as in many states, were abolished and succeeded in blocking the the beginning of the counting process and until after polling stations closed that's a likely outcome and it starts to move dangerous one. And here we have. We have to actually too possible scenarios of this outcome, one that's Trump claims that won the elections will be held in December habitual. Do it no matter what so that's that's the way here. he operates. But the question is whether you know the mood. Mikey enablers in the Republican Party will be quite dark and they will see the results of the Senate racist, for instance, and the industry the standard supporting trump and

and backing human. These in this ludicrous claims, it's it's it's a suicidal and that's it that's a good outcome or elections, close enough likened to solve sixteen or a year? Two thousand the and Trumbull have enough clouds with Republicans and Senate and with judges at different levels, on top of course, insuperable. and then the american democracy could be real danger, if not in jeopardy, because it will be very difficult to actually find reliable sources, reliable institutions that could could present the peaceful drowsy default when simply safe home securities.

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doesn't care rideau about the cost and that's what happens with all autocrat. At the end of the day, you know he cares about the outcome. Winning get everything losing is a disaster. So how wings, he doesn't care if he asked to shuffle the deck, and just you know, get old aces and his sleeve fine. You know I didn't people should stop. You know will be surprised. should stop using y know. It's never happened before dusk understand how how bad it looks at the because this argument has been used for many years when I criticise Putin and warned about putting the booty threat not only to Russia, Russia, Russia, neighbours, immediate neighbours, but to the rest of the world, including America, always looks bad news Nothing looks bad for people like putting Trump Eve. They believe they can win by using these that technique or- bad moves, or something this honest to stay afloat and and at will

so that's why I yo, I believed a trump will use every day, the book and he will go beyond that offenders. He may not be sufficient to recognise all sorts of tricks and darted rigs that he will employ to win the battle and of starting campaign is his is for him adjusted sir I'd like a oxygen he's problem. This time is that he's campaigning against the person that is not as vulnerable is not as a looming target as fuel quintal was, and I definitely make from so so angry? So here, too, are probably more unfortunate factors. Pain one. As I mentioned, he's appointed he's. Not viewed. Majority of Americans as someone who is corrupt, weeds abrasive condescending, so is its it doesnt work is widened and and secondly, of course, drums design

it was handling of covered pandemics, destroyed his gaze ass, he thought in an economy that would be a decisive factor that was his plan for reelection and being pushed to the robe sir he's desperate and and he's willing to say whatever, and of course you know if you're a thief, you know you want you to blame your your opponent of stealing and leave your corrupt. You want to blame my blade, your opponent of being more corrupt, but, of course always stories. They are just not lending combined the same way they could land on Hillary Clinton four years ago right. So I guess it's true trumpets capable of anything, and we shouldn't be surprised. I guess, Question is, will go back in time in a moment, but as far as next week is concerned, when Trump pulls all these tricks and makes these statements about victory, even though he may of one, what is the american media supposed to do in fairness

No american media shoe jerk should hold ground you just you cannot. You know you cannot I simply no reported for the sake of reporting. That's. Why of the one of the trumps adventure is that he playing this press neutrality? So this objectivity, so the fairness and unease is always having having an upper hand. because he's wise and he's almost statements are given in with the same value as the as the very decent comments from the opposite side. I think it should be a very clear message: from the mainstream media that, as long as the votes are being counted, all tramplings just should be disregarded. As an attempt to steal elections, he should be here: We should, I think, that's the Democrats could probably go to the court's judgment. just an injunction on any any it's war

like an show, but it's very important to demonstrate to Americans that election not all war until all votes have been counted and remind them that there is a chance that Republicans may try. you claim the victory before Every every vote cast by american citizen is counted, or to portray the agony. because I understand, there's a five weeks period for election results be certified and even if the chaos rolls over is a chance that in some states result be not be announced and then it goes through legislation and in some states Republicans good good, could hope to win elections by acclamation, rather than rather than by by counting votes. Do you think that over the four years of the trunk presidency, the american press has gotten better at dealing with him? My recollection is that at the start there was a lot of dismay unless repetition of what the

Instead, there is still some of that, as you say, but more recently there were mainstream press outlets who fact check the president who used the word, lie and lying, which there was a great debate about the first couple of years of the presidency. Had you rate the press in American dealing with this Nan against dial Trump over the course of the four years? Oh, if you ask you Bob We raiding the performance. I would say it's fried came from F to probably be miles of that Finally, that's very Jefferson. It's no look! It's it's about four years. I look at the damage the trunk cost to American them proceed to American allies- is around the world to american people so when presidencies doing better. But think it out that state a great test will be on the night of November that either second second outcome that I described you notice is relatively Also excellent Biden, is winning well understand, he's winning, but it's you idiot takes time to the council. The votes

tromp was mobilizing his support rallied to support. all governed brunches yeah. That's that be the time to actually too, to show that it's not just the media report, but its will need some kind of statesmanship, these senseless citizenry, because we, even though everyone could yet about before the hell for trouble, where's ago. He received these help from Putin in a form of brainwashing of american public or attacking some small pockets, crucial pockets voters in battleground states using the That was a quiet but Cambridge Analytical from Facebook and daddy picked up the correctly. Actually, I believe that was the the essence of trumps collusion with Russians. The crackling picked up these hot spots on on electoral map and it worked this time I dont leap which is bothering gave unjust.

Warp ways with groups of voters. It'll be a direct attack on election infrastructure There will definitely help from two sorted this core and spread Cayos by simply no hacking, the counting in structural, lied, and any a sign of chaos will help from because it will create more uncertainty and naturally uncertainties what drummed needs, if he's losing so Well, that's why press will have to take a stand. and they will have to you- not just inform european public but to educate american public and to warn them about all these dangerous and defend democracy. That's that might be the challenge that every Every media outlets american outlet will be facing five years from now. Do you think that it is prudent intention to directly favour trump or merely to so chaos or those two things similar up put its intention is to survive

and he survival depends with his ability to spread. Cares Finally, because our russian economies and isn't free fall pandemics, numbers are horrible, even official numbers are not good, but speaking to two people back there in Russia or reading the russian or russian internet. You I understand that Russia is a terrible shape. Russian healthcare System has been ruined during twenty years of Britain's rule so put needs foreign policy called adventure, so you need Two continue he's aggressive foreign policy. these we chance to continue it and to stay afloat, not to be defeated decisively is to have friendly administration friendly president even without discussing reasons why tromp was always fulfil its Putin as to many other dictators. Who knows that was Biden in the oval office,

situation. Will change quite dramatically and America will be The world stage as a leader of the free world and was american, was American led coalition that will include populations that are also lost their patients with pollutants, aggressive acts and interference in their affairs didn't, will not be one will be able to achieve these foreign policy goals so trumps, victory for ports and ease the best chance to survive so and I think he will be here- will be helping drum way- ever resource that he can. He can mobilise, and unfortunately I have to say that to put it, is is not shy to use this resource. That's true something you said a second ago the issue of of why it is the Trump is so kind rhetorically about good and never criticizes him. Give an explanation for that. Do you think there might come a time where we will hear some revelations about why? That is all I sincerely hope so these views.

Support for us to understand. So what the essence of for these trumpet and friendly relations. We know trumpets friendly all dictators because he seemed envious. It still sees sees. Autocratic mentality is just its is either to implement the same techniques of governance, ass being used by puts in chinese companies DE it nor screen dictator. Every gun bright. But David was very odd about the key areas he could go about his business and privately admire them and try to emulate but I don't see how it is in his domestic political interest to be so friendly in his rhetoric. to these dictators or is there some basis on which you think that maybe even his base, like that, I dont know what he's base but but clear ethical nature? So we somehow he's he's very frank in his admiration, the dictator's so Why does he doesn't really gets to hide it,

that's how we leave his life, so it always wore flame So why is it always he's? Tell you exactly what he's going to do? So would sooner he's going to tell you that humdrum steel I'm going to bed from my positions for him. the moment he's sitting at the same table with with dictators with authoritarian leaders. He feels much better and you can't hide it, but still I would separate Putin from the pack. While he could be friendly with the council this world, or we seeds, impedes our kitchen ends, but the relations with Putin, I dig it up fundamentally different, and we saw it on many occasions, especially while in Helsinki, when at the press conference trump who's out is Tory put him. You know used his steed says. So much taller. But it seemed to me that put you looked at him. You know, as a giant looks at a dwarf, I met enough KGB. All of this is in my life, and I know the way

these. These green that day on there, he's when they look at their asses fulfilment. I couldn't believe strongly sees asked wheel now more. You know when, when the tromp was out of the office and will know more about his taxes, that about you know who trams and piracy, and all these trump financial dealings well become public. Hopefully, one day I doubt that we'll see plainly what russian trace in the from dealings, but now without going too far, so it's very clear to me that a trump cannot escape he's dependency. And that's why you tried desperately to minimize the negative effects, american sanctions they draw. Oh look, my administration did this not to know These sanctions happen not because of drum, but despite of trout, because sanctions imposed by the Senate letting ninety seven percent support since

public. Those who are was tromp on domestic affairs. Internationally. Try due to distance while Democrats now support sanctions, its almost unanimous, so Trump knew that you could escape it, but he that David actual everything in his power to downgrade the effect of the sanctions, so following you know just falling Putin's wards and and russian propaganda. They are all behind from its as much as they will for from four years ago, before ago, they didn't expect trumped, will, frankly speaking, I think the expectations were drunk the spread. Chaos, equal only damage Hillary Clinton, who they expected to be the desperate and maybe the trumps compare Sillery would make a week and more open to deals with Russia, just not to compromise or rum international position, but this time it's not just expecting from two to spread caused these. They want him to win,

I'm not surprised finding out there. The whole story spread. Giuliani has been fabricated by russian intelligence, and you know think just repeat that drums general admiration for autocrat is sufficient explanation for his conduct and behaviour towards Putin No, I think it's not enough because puts in my view, is separate from that back. The way from talks to put in the way trump deals with Russia and was put his personal interest. It's quite different from market wait. Trump has been dealing with other other crops and that's why I think there is something more. There is much more. A small Is there more secrets? Do the secrets that hopefully will be revealed when tromp was out of the office yesterday was reported that put an ordered a national mask mandate, because corona virus cases respecting a thin, Hugh tweeted. The following quote perhaps-

This is what will convince trumpets that Putin really is a bad guy or maybe convince them to wear masks good in either case. is Trump wondering now. My friend and Mentor Vladimir Putin has issued nationwide mass mandate. What do I do locally? national mask mandate in Russia is the is a demonstration of utter failure of puts his regime to deal was. Pandemics as you remember, there have been there bending their successes it early early stage of the virus sank, it says it was minor and russian healthcare system. I wasn't top of that there. Dad breaks up to now? That's the in some mega policies, mainly go, there were problems, but in some are there were back to due to their unfounded optimism. And now they are doing with this unmitigated disaster and even official numbers are terrible and

all stories about vaccine? I just you know it's a miracle cure, though they have official, officially claimed it had Maxine, but date. They know that it's it's it's not working. There, while putting you know now declared this NASH White, mask mandate Hiding he's been hiding since the very beginning of the pandemics, and that's it the best demonstration of the real situation on the ground and Russia, how bad it is and so how helpless our russian authorities by trying to not to eradicated but due to contain it spread you come in on the autocratic play book. We didn't have occasion to speak back in January or February, but what if we had an, I had asked the question: let's opposes pandemic becomes very big deal and lots of people are at risk and lots of people begin dying. What does your prediction?

as to how Donald Trump Public more and PR, then in leadership. How would he conduct himself in the face of science in the face of actual reports of death? Did he follow through and do what you would have predicted or something different know, this nothing surprising about troms contempt, science. Science is a solid knowledge, science is something that cannot be changed tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, and trumps algorithm is, is exactly the opposite. Trump believes that Fidel DVD, the true stories, what he's telling today fact is that he's a is met by an opponent. This cake and discovered that cannot be away cannot be, cannot be destroyed. I too am Appointed- pointed- our campaign. Maybe puzzled and then furious, and the arms trade to pretend that is it's all. You know it's all

so bad luck, it sits going to have to disappear next day, been trying the same thing, for months, always saying the: U S is turning the corner. The disappearing to a miracle cure to vaccine, but You keep turning corners, you're, actually going in circles to that's very profound. If you keep turning corners, you're going that's that's what's happening, was true that it always. Work to deal with everything else, and it's like its that's. Why trumpets trumpets soon now so angry he's is enraged because he's traditional tax, it works so well now. Actually, backfiring both was copied and with Joe Biden unfeasible what are they really backfiring mean? The exemplary does give reminds me of something else he does, and to get away with this with times he said, I have a health plan. It's coming out in two weeks. That's been, for months and months and months and then too, Go by, and so

for this is, what happens is owed coming into weeks, and yet he has a persistent base of support, did never leaves him yes, but it's the now. We won't discussing healthcare we talking about. Drums are all lock on he's a support. What is surely surely five percent, but his considerable portion american population. It not. You know the reason these people believe in trumpeting trump is a symptom that day, that's them in policy, politics has been shifted from competitive democracy into tribal fights, can Borys want to safeguard the right of american politics. Do I tromp was he's now on the right side, but I am afraid that you can equally have crumpled the far left in the great dream politician for radical on on either side, someone who could We move forward with their gender pay, no respect and a and b glory

the rationale and and play with some kind of religious feelings, not the other religious euro as as as a fate but it's a believed at Heathrow outside is always right, but we should not take US radicals being forty percent of the population he has a precision base of that number. You said the following as a theory a few weeks ago as to the persistence of the support, which I thought was interesting. You said, We marvel at the steady forty percent from support, despite his cascade failures and scandals, and it's not just the people are locked in and then you right they relish the damage itself. They think it's hurting people they don't like more than it hurts them divisive and toxic. I e trump ism. what you mean by that absolutely, but I would divide: is forty percent into groups I think smaller group at the lousy group. This is it radicals, that's they want. You know just the country to move their direction at any cost, make attentive ten percent. So this is

slightly less than one third of this forty percent, but the still the it's a traditional republicans. They are just you know their enraged by other things, and also day they move with the current, so they just at this noise group under and they look at the other side and is somehow they are convinced that the opposition, the opposite number, on the democratic slide. There is absolute evil and, and that's that creates the synergy and and that's why these forty percent- just behind from and, as I say probably once said, you know, this is really worth while Russia is just those war going with this tight and naturally The right wing media is playing with. Many fears that have been raised by the race shroud these protests and, of course, looting and unrest in the law.

After several months and it works again. It's about tribalism. It's about tribalism ended and then we will know well that we can find many people on the other side on the left, side, dead or equally equally distrustful hateful about the opposition from the right, and that's that's. That would benefit from the very close. but that has been created it also. That's that's that's what drums thrives? That's. Why is very important for us to move away from that? Because, even if would be Trump, it's not enough? We have to be Trump business as a philosophy as the way of gum the country and rolling a rolling supports, is it a philosophy? the way of being seen yeah philosophies is, is giving a too much credit, even several, giving too much credit but how its political philosophy, because it's it's very soon way of using political landscape, I guess nihilism is a philosophy- is not feasible

for, while, yes exactly but it's it's from prison is aiming at the very foundation of american democracy that was based on on traditions and this traditions or Bp Route in the documents designed by founding fathers, but of course they can foresee everything by the end of the end of the eighteenth century. It did. Those documents cannot be used as a whole. This creature, due to answer my question that's. Why it's it's very dangerous just to hear these arguments today from some regional is. Oh, it's not unconstitutional, of course, is the ankles because so many things are unconstitutional. She called me to answer every question but its. If we look at the Spirit of the law definitely the disposal of the law and the Spirit of american democracy has been a great danger and everyday trump he's a campaign trail and if you ve got for bees.

As you know, in the office for forty years, these scurried could could begun. Well, it's finally happening the world is opening up again and were hearing the word normal being tossed around a lot more, but after the year we ve had truly feeling normal is going to take some time and a little bit of work. If you

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hundred dollars off when you use code preach at talk, space, dot com, one tonne limit more about the difference between Trump and Trump ISM. Could you point something out about Trump at an overall a feature of the quota court philosophy or this about him that's unique. There are other people who are demagogues or other people who aspire to be autocrat who trample on institutions and norms and everything else the difference with Trump. point out. Is he tells you exactly what he's going to do He says, I'm going to steal. He says I'm going to fire people. He says he's going to do all these things. I'll give you an example that was brought back to to attention, in week when he walked out on that interview with Leslie Stall at CBS, he said to least all for five years ago. he said to her. You know why I do it meaning attack the press. He said I d, to discredit you all demean. You all So when you write negative stories about me, no

well believe you. So he gives you the playbook there's not a lot of hide the the tactics here, do you think in the future. Someone who wants to walk in the footsteps of Donald Trump will be like that. It seems to me that is a unique thing in a politician to tell you he wants to obstruct as he's trying to obstruct and these other people who may follow in his footsteps, have some of the other tendencies he has but How odd is it that he forecasts all of it in advance as a unique or not everything? Putin does that? Does he now, but Aspect Putin, Putin, rule, Sir Russia is very different country. Tramp tramp had the most difficult task of all because he has been trying to impose these are the chronicle style and methods the country that enjoy to the market if we really do want to fifty years. The country that's dead

cherishes individual freedoms and end was built. The institutions of this country had been build on the idea of a separation of powers of checks and balances. So and from recognised that the way to to accomplish it is to make it make an immune to free press, and that's why you know we he attacked repressing, gives attacking free press bigger as long as he can nap splendid displayed, the country as long as he can. Oscar from them. Succeed in pushing against the funding no ideas behind. Megan democracy. But why tromp, is unique, since we never seen any trump like politician before. He's also symptom, because I would have never succeeded in two thousand sixteen eve patients were not right because

country already it I had this very now, be the porters and them We all understand that the normal the Hillary Clinton into south. Sixteen that definitely help from it immensely. I have no doubt that Joe Biden four years ago would have won Billy, I guess from so drum needed someone were negative rating of nearly fifty five percent or sixty percent we may elections, while he's decorating was higher. What are some ways you deal with this and I guess we'll have a better idea of who are going to be dealing with in the future They were even before we started. Taping were discussing a piece by Nicholas Christoph re talks about the power of humour in resisting autocrat. He writes, among other things, quote shaking ones: fist at a leader doesn't when people over as much as making that leader a laughing stock and quote only gives examples from us.

Protest movements around the world. We. What do you make of that idea that, in some ways you can resist autocratic movements and leaders with humor Look you asking someone who was born and raised in the Soviet Union, so we we knew humor withal humour, because nobody could talk about it. on the streets? This humour was our way to reflect the awful reality of communist Russia, so we is the idea that human rights is something that helps us to deal with this reality and to exchange our views? People, like me, we were FED was mother's milk, That's why you know I'm now I think it's all. These comments are over simplistic because Miracles. Learning about these, these these humour to become part of the political campaign it's still a different kind of humour, because it's it's on television, you can have all the shows and Saturday alive show, for instance, the, albeit

are all just you know many others. You know this is this: you name them. This is this its name on its dna was Legion on American TV and radio on wine Worse bet, it's I'm telling you but more subtle kind of humour. That is just no it's it some points at the very core problem all of the regime in our esteemed I mean I just I can recall you know. Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of jobs in the Soviet Union. One of them is just, for instance, in the school. You know, there's this or in the college, debating baby gonna. Why Napoleon failed to return them or they do fifteen. And the answer is cafe because he did have newspaper providence if he had a problem newspaper? Nobody would have learned that he was the battle of Waterloo, so this is going to this. We already knew that you know the propaganda could do a good job by brainwashing people and its not now with social media it could create miracles. This is still one of the one of the biggest issues. How we

find a way to use our technology and technology invented in the free world. They acknowledge it helps communicate unjustly genji information to the many great things. How we can use this technology to advance democracy and a note democracy to be challenged and destroyed by on democratic forces that are quite a handy. Ways using social media to undermine our democratic freedom or an amateur. You do that technology, one form of new techniques g is social media. Facebook, twitter and those platforms are right in the crosshairs of the debate, where I think people of good thought that those outlets would help alot of people, not just in America but around the world to engaging in a free

change of ideas and for democratic impulses to flourish, and we see the opposite right because you can so so much miss truth. If they're not monitored, you think it's possible to fix that. Look, I think, is possible, but we have to acknowledge the problem first, and it says It will very slow technology, get in technology, are the law and on side of bureaucracy, state institutions, the other Parkinson's law. More is more, if I recall correctly: That means that our of a ship examples are regularly monitor deadly, but the exit leading called its Warsaw for technology. So you you have more and more technology that helps us to communicate with fast story no more effectively, but it's the age. You know it creates a very different space and people expect governments to respond also quickly, but the government response is, is based on Parkinson's law, oh, you have more and more bureaucracy lairs to respond to new problems, So this those are just the two two opposite trends.

why people are losing their faith in governments. Ability to deal with these problems Obviously opens opens doors for populists who is- girl, dignity, all form of government is just an obsolete. Is this is not working and forget about it? So let's find the direct communication. So that's that's what tromp accomplished was he's twitter. I will do you know why I talk to you guys so its theme we do. We don't need this old the institutions of representative democracy, because they are not there no longer capable of meeting your needs and demands. On time. Couple of weeks ago, I had my article in the economist I talked about these challenges and I think it's very important conversation, maybe the most important one. We should have after November thought, of course, how can we mobilise new technology to help us adjusting the traditional democratic institutions? Build the documents designed by founding fathers to the challenges of the twenty first century.

and one of the ideas that I fancy is to look for. You call missions that one can create at the local level, because we know that people are losing their radicalism. If you downgrade the issues from Japan, explanation, wide political agenda and then to the local people who live in the same neighborhood. They are more likely to open for forty gosh agents for looking for consensus and being less radical, even if they have differently is about american foreign policy and its along, painful process. Unfortunately no decision can satisfy people were looking for. You needed answers, but that's, I believe, the way to go and we have to defuse The bumble radicalism this in fields that benefit trump and unease. Potential la force is opposite of radicalism, centralism, centres sounds baby doll.

I was going to say there is part of the problem in enough in modern society where we have social media and video games and constant need of stimulation is main problem, not one of ideology with centres and but of dullness get what it says whites dollars? You know if you can make it more exciting, with new challenges and a good solution. Both dollars of centralism, I think it's about loss of a future targets. What's the what did we desire? So what's the? What do we expect to achieve this. Humanity always moved forward by having great calls going similarly ill the site ends breakthrough. Innovations a nation that celebrated fifty one years ago the landing on the moon was here. So I was excited about New Iphone. But it's the butt, Will a poorly Levin is not Iphone eleven. It's very born for us to recover this, reed of innovations and exploration, so there's a stiff. We

to move the nation and the world that could follow two so to new heights or two new depths. If we're talking about recently oceans, but we have you a mosque better is virtually alone in just these great things, and I that's the way to energize people, and as long as we don't have it so people they consumed with there was there. Was this routine and its so why is it out? You be hijacked by trumps of this world? because they just term Take the centaur their tag, the mainstream politics as being doll and boring, and don't I'll attractive and also at a time of social. Media the numbers in the middle and there he'll dominant. I still believe that more Americans are the stair comfortable was being in the middle, but when you have fifty percent on both sides, using social media and being so vocal again safe and rollin road small but aggressive and noisy crowds. Behind them

it's an illusion that day they represent a country. They do not write. So I have to ask you this: before we go contemplate. A Trump victory was its closer. Not what? What does that mean for America paint a picture and was it mean for America's place in the world if, from his present for another four years,. I note the long pause he eyed, it's a long pause. Did you say Trump? send for form we use. I did okay, I M not sure its former years, because there are younger trumps. So it's by be more than four years of present trump because the for years. Trump whale succeeding in ruining the checks and balances system in the United States. He will take full control of GNP, of course, that state it will be trumps body

forget about legal Reagan on other great republican President's? and having this mission behind him. He will be able to move, american politics, political life. Way from traditional ones, Democrat, the competition as we saw during his first four years he will be very consistent in replacing key members of. U S. Ages. The FBI director this director already report on the chopping black with absolutely no. No, it's a sixty. It's it's not enough to be neutral it for me, only drummed loyalists. You remember how how many people from the jewel besides it I'll get round he's a novice suggested. I e baby to note impulsive, but look We have a general vote the general matters we have general Kelly. They were be able to contain negative energy. So

these guys and away from pushed for any Barrett the way the Republicans accommodated, he tells you that he will not be shy. pack. All branches of government was the I do think by the way that was a big problem. A big mistake by Democrats: the way to handle Cavanaugh and and bear it they just here they talked about everything about sexual though about healthcare and about the role nor sway it's important, but the poem always these to their tromp voice, and they didn't hide it. It's the first time we in my memory- We have disapproval. Judges that that will not shy of playing into the hands of the present were pointed them think about it didn't know, should participate in Trump's rally accidental, but it's a fact, so I think that the next four years could be. I dont want a graveyard of american democracy, but american democracy will have to do so much to survive, and I think it's

it's the divide of american society will widen, trumped will enjoy it and I think it might lead to a dramatic conflict between member states, and is it prompts administration, as for American America's status and well it'll be further downgraded. Mary got well, will no longer play a role, because the way Eric is acting now, we'd, Sir, not typical, because Troms interest very one is replacing american interests and in the next four years, being a banana republic with nuclear weapon and massive economy, but true interest will be dominant factor of U S, you as foreign politics and Doom Amerika, allies. Europe will be definite looking for for the other directions to survive

This well till I feel very uncomfortable by you by spending less minutes of our conversation. Limerick, painted this stop in future. No I'm gonna make you feel better because because my next question is, is the reverse now paint a picture of what happens? How much damage can be undone if Biden, winds, and then, let's assume, for this hypothetical to make, you feel better than he wins by a large margin. It'll be important because it's not about beating Trump, as ever they said but being from peace from business as, let's not argue about more philosophy. Deepening instantly. So hopefully it will help. America to revive it's normal political competition and it might have a good effect with what's left of the Republican Party believe is that the real job, but on the next day, because we'll just about from Biden Elections about by winning

doing many things that will will help us to reverse the negative effect of transactions, naturally Will it will be felt immediately, foreign politics, in allies we'll be reassured that America is there and America's back to normal see, but it's Important understand how we can manage the extremes. influence in both major political parties, and I think that it will lead us to a gradual reform of the current political system. Because we already know that many Republican Spain we should preserve Thursday departed the party and now actively supporting Biden than I think these people will be looking for foreign you home. It might be surely a conflict with democratic party, because I can hardly imagine what brings together more than Democrats like Joe Biden, for instance, Bernie Sanders Awful wars many of them other reluctant by the way towards widened even today, so it's a hard work it's not going to happen overnight. Are you think it's very simple

remember that voting for on the third floor earlier and even celebrating his victory should not make complacent Musingly, just a knowledge. So if you is under threat of being made into moves you have to worry about the safety of the king, you have to protect because otherwise the game is over and that's for me could be. a metaphor of drums victory, but if you are, if you're succeeding in defending your king do you have to make sure that the in the long run in the end game you can the game, and it means that you have to think about more important factors. Oppositional factors like a bone structure, activity of peace is controlled the centre and so on. That's what she will be now agenda after November good, as we expect, common sense and historical optimism will win characters.

Thanks again for joining us, I hope to talk to you on the other side of the election. Yeah I would be delighted so under hopefully Wheeler, we'll talk while raising raising the glasses Garrick. Thank you. Thank you gave away. My conversation with Gary Kasparov continues for members of the cafe insider community of the membership free for two weeks had to cafe dot com. Slash insider again, that's capita come slash inside so folks. Here we are the elections. Upon us the end of the election is upon us and I don't have anything particular profound to say this last opportunity to to all of you before the November Third election day I just wanted commiserate. Maybe tell you how I'm feeling I'm anxious. Like a lot of you are last night at about one thousand, one hundred and thirty.

I posted a simple tweet asking you guys hanging in there, and I got thousands of responses between has been view over a million times which to me kind of says it all if you're feeling anxious feeling stressed out you're feeling concerned, you don't know what the future holds. You're, not alone part of my living is trying to be balanced and com. and as neutral as possible- and I don't have any those feelings at this moment. I missed as an anxious as the rest of you given what is at stake in this. action and by the way, the interview just heard with Gary Kasparov has not made me more calm, as he points out very eloquently what the stakes are. If Donald Trump is reelected, so it important election more so than I can say in a twitter feed more so than I can say at the end of a podcast cast last time voting in an election. thought was incredibly important and perhaps transformative now isn't two thousand eight in my family and I were living in Bethesda Maryland at the time and although my kids were too young to vote far too young to vote, they came with

We wanted them to see what voting was like. I think I mention this before and we want and stood in line voted for the first black prison, and I remember There- is a feeling of lightness and enjoy in casting that I remember saying to my daughter who at the time was seven- that you didn't matter me who she voted for future, but when she was of age to be able to cast a ballot, the important thing was that she vote. Then she said to me because she was precocious sedated. Do I have to vote for democratic, and I said no, you dont can vote for whoever you want just as long as you vote fast forward to ass weakened were early voting for the first time was available in New York State and my daughter now nineteen has become fairly politically active here. She happens to be in turning for grass roots organization and has been very, very excited to vote for the first time in prison. Election, so I wanted to vote on the first day. Early voting was avail. Will this past Saturday, my daughter It's been doing college online because such as life now

plans for their friends on Saturday, so we couldn't go the first days. We want the second day and my wife in my daughter, nice deadline for about a couple of hours before we could cast our vote and there was very different from two thousand eight, I think it's an even more important vote isn't even report election, but it didn't feel light and it didn't feel joyous. It felt kind of sober and keep Align looked somber. Two, I'm not gonna exhort you all here to vote. I think you know that at this point- and you know that it's important to have a plan and in others afford to get your friends to vote in your family members to vote and for making sure the They have plans. The lasting I'm going. Leave you with is a memory that I have from before the twenty sixteen election some days before election day in two thousand, steam my youngest son, who was an eleven who had heard me use this phrase in speeches in other contexts asked me the question is:

daddy is, is America, the greatest country on earth, and I didn't hesitate in. I responded yeah America greatest country on earth and then he had to follow a question which was dead Donald Trump Card elected will still be the greatest country on earth, and I said without hesitation, and it looked him in the eye, and I said yes and I repeated the sense I said, even if Donald Trump wins, America is great and the basque country on earth, and he I'm satisfied by that, and I meant that now he has not yet asked me that question this time around in the days leading up to the twenty twenty election. And if you ask me the question, if Donald Trump gets re elected, will America still be the best and greatest country on earth? I might have to take to answer that question and I'd like to think so, and I'd like to that all the good people who listen here and who voted, even if their votes are not enough to replace Donald Trump and members of the press and brave politicians and activists and people who care about the values that are important in this country.

I like to think that all their combined efforts, even in the second tranche term, will keep this country as great as it has been in the past and true to its values and its standards and its finest traditions. But I'm not sure I'm really not. I do have confidence that will get through it as people who love our country, the matter what happens after the election, but I am worried that the cut It will be fundamentally changed and not for the better. So it is my fervent hope and wish that when next I speak to you from the basement of my home into my PA cast microphone that it will be to celebrate good NEWS until then. Hang in there Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned thanks it to my guest. Gary Kasparov

If you like what we do rate and review the show and apple pie casts or wherever you listen. positive review helps new listeners, find the show send me your coat, friends about news politics, injustice tweet them to me. prepare our with the hashtag asked pre, or in calling me a message of six nine to four seven, and three three. Eight, that's six, nine to four preach you can send an email to stay tuned, a cafe dot com? Tone is presented by CAFE studios. Your host is prepared The executive producer is tomorrow, supper the senior prom sir is Adam. Waller was seen. producers, David TAT ashore, and the cafe team is Matthew, Billy David Calandria.

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