From CAFE, welcome to stay tuned with Preet Bharara, when the full weight and force of the United States ultimately comes down in Russia is going to be devastating and it may not come while Trump is Maybe it does, but it will come. Because that's the way, everybody else feels that build router, an activist and campaigner for justice in Russia, since we first but October, Lattimer Putin. Amount by name at the Helsinki summit in Lisbon You talk about Putin's personal attacks and president trumps flirtation with handing over bill and other Americans to the russian regime. This is a good one folks, but first, let's get your questions you're taking this Koane lunchtime on Wednesday August first and the first question comes in the wake of a tweet Donald Trump sent just a little while ago, as I was coming to the studio. This is what the President of the United States tweeted just now.

This is a terrible situation and attorney General Jeff sessions should stop this rigged witch hunt right now before it contains disdain our country. Any further. Bob mother is totally conflicted is seventeen angry Democrats that are doing his dirty work. grace to USA, exclamation mark. So that's the President of United States, saying in a tweet, the attorney General Jeff sessions should This rigged witch hunt right now and the question from twitter user at indivisible Mitch is, is that tweet obstruction of justice? So a lot of people are asking that question and that's reasonable given house, or even more extreme unusual Donald Trump tweet. he's literally saying on his favorite social media platform you're. Not it's not the rig witch Hunt If you observations about it before I get to the ultimate question of whether or not that four by itself a nation with other things is obstruction, first of all,

in general, Jeff Sessions is accused from the rush investigation, so it should not be up to him to decide to stop it or not or interfere with it. In way the others say about the irony of the tweet is the base on which our Trump says, at least in this social media post, that the investigation to be shut down is based on by mothers, alleged conflict so annoying and he doesn't believe Jeff session should be refused and he should be able to shut down Education, on the other hand, based on, I think, not very good reasoning and is generalised anger about the investigation he thinks Bob Mother is conflicted and should be refused and should be allowed to continue Let me say it just a word about how that works. Both Jeff sessions and Bob Mahler went through the normal, somewhat bureaucratic, but ethical process, for a career people and the Justice Department to make it a termination about whether or not

we're conflict and whether or not it is appropriate for the particular men sessions and Mahler to oversee particular investigations. In the case of Jeff sessions to him credit. He abided by the determination by career people in the Justice Department, the given his close association with the campaign that he should not be involved in the Russia Investigation, because he was part of the campaign that would be investigated for potential when people like to say collusion or conspiracy of coordinating with the Russians. Similarly, as has been reported many many times, although we know all the details about went to a similar process to make sure that within the department, given the fact that his prior law firm represented some people who come within the purview of the investigation, like yard coumarin advocate Trump, termination was made by independent professional career people at the Justice Department that there was no conflict

was the department would wave it in the interests of justice so down from next real about this issue of conflict, but the queer folks it aside, there is none My next observation is It is an odd way to be directing people in your justice department rather than pick up the phone and issuing a directive, to be doing on twitter, so so, on the one hand, I understand why there are immediately worried that this is in fact a directive to the. General to do x or why we on the other hand, it's also part of a generalised strategy. The trump has adopted of signalling to his base that the investigation is terrible, that its unethical, that it is not to be valued that the peace were involved are biased and some particular way in its whether or not it is evidence of a tree It is certainly part of an orchestrated pr campaign for his basin for

people to undermine whenever future conclusion, they would be its particular bizarre to be doing this in the country stop it being the second day of the trial in the Eastern District of Virginia. In the first case, the Bob mother has brought against Paul metaphor down transformer campaign, Sherman next observation, as we on generally show before the mother, destination. Is we're looking at three things. One is whether there was hang on America with respect to the election in two thousand. Sixteen second, whether or not was any coordination of conspiracy on the part of people in the trunk campaign, with the Russians and and third obstruction with respect to the first the intelligence community members of Congress and the indictments all clearly show that there was interference with our election and twenty sixteen. And so one down from says, shut down. This rigged witch hunt is unclear what that means. There is a trial, as I said, in progress, there are other people who have fled guilty

other investigations that may not even touch upon Donald Trump that are appropriate and are under way- and I don't see any reason at all why those investigation should be shut. So it's an outrageous common directive on that ground alone so far, the resultant question that you that is asked is this: tweet attraction of justice, for something to be obstruction, you have to prove corrupt intent, and so My view is that in combination with other things, certainly a picture of obstruction is painted a little bit more clearly. When you take the context in which this week has been set time and time again. The president is made clear here. Like to be in jeopardy. He isn't like the rush investigation to continue that partly recently fired him. Call me that he told Lester Hold was to stop the russian investigation and so had this intent. It seems from surrounding evidence

to go away because people around him and he himself might be in legal jeopardy, of course, in the text of a tweet itself, Thou Trump sites to a arguably neutral reason, separate apart from self protection, as to why he wants the more investigation to be shut down. He talks about Bobby, are being totally conflicted. The problem that is We have seen time and time again that the president is not above at all, using protection reasons to engage in certain action, so Remember what you call me was fired last year. He had wrought roses, Tine right that absurd memo which you may I agree with the gym: Commie was firing on the ground that he treated Hillary Clinton unfairly No reasonable person believes in the present, by his own words, as even belied the idea that Jim Commie was fired cause of this other reason. Here of something to make the case the Donald Trump attracted just as you Do it based on this tweet by itself,

by sticking together. Other states. The president, the context in which these statements were made an utter. Information that we probably dont know about yet based on interviews and, ultimately, potentially with the press might say in his own interview, you begin to paint, I think, a much clearer picture that there was an attentive obstruct. But, as I have said many many times, I dont even if there is clear proof beyond reasonable doubt that our trump attracted justice my mother is going to bring indictment against a sitting president because a prevailing legal view put forward by the hour. The legal counsel within the Department of Justice at a sitting, president cannot be indicted. So at most, what you might see my mother do is recite the facts. Sight of these tweets site? Other conversation site interviews make clear the context and the timing of all of these statements and these circumstantial evidence of intent. In a report, the Congress will ultimately see

so in the more down from says things like this, it seems to me the more likely Is the Congress at some point will take up the issue in proceed? and so it doesn't matter as much what I think that what you think that's what members of Congress Thick and members of Congress in the wake of this tweet already wing in and whether or not they see it as evidence of obstruction or not, so that the biggest problem for Donald Trump, the next question also comes from twitter from fish. Nerd figured asks just read: The jury from an effort was seated in about half a day. Is that, surprisingly, quick for this kind of trial is, we'll go for the Hashtag rocket docket thanks requested just to remind everyone Pollyanna, for it is the first person to go to trial in connection with investigation being conducted by the special Council, Robert Mahler, it's after the first of trials for payment afford the first one taken place now in the eastern District of Virginia next, while taking place later in the

you're in September, in the District of Columbia, and the reason for the two trials is that venue was only proper first these counts in Eastern district of Virginia and Pollyanna Foreigners is Lord chose not to waive the right too. Separate trial there, I'm not sure how wise that was, because now he's got to do with you trials in two places and then the governess to bite of the apple, but be that as it may, it is pretty quick. It depends on the judge Jerry selection, typically in high profile cases, can can take a few days and sometimes even simpler cases can take a few days depending on how willing judges to let people off or define cause to remove people from the jury pool. So this suggests that the the court lives to its name. The rock advocate the indication given from the government is at the trial would take about three weeks. The judge said in his case that that's fine, but he liked to get it done into my prediction- is it'll get done into the judges, were the king

his domain, and even though there have been lots and lots of discussions about the number of exhibited the number of witnesses and complexity. at the end of the day is actually not so complex is a series of charges. Essentially related to concealment of income through tax fraud, and back and allow those things are freely contrive. The idea that you're supposed to. reveal to the IRS. If you have an interest in a foreign bank, account is kind of straightforward, either revealed it or you didn't and questions as to whether You had a reason not to reveal it or you didn't know you had to reveal it. I don't think take a lot of witness testimony to get to you can see. I think, as you as you read, the new some fireworks, probably with aspects of the testimony of Rick Gates. Rick Gates was one upon Paul right hand, men both in the campaign and also at their lobbying,

He will recall was charged at the same time the comment of what was but relates, flipped and issue. We talk about a lot in the show and decided in hopes of future leniency from a judge to testify against poor metaphor and opening statement yesterday. Predictably, the defence lawyer for parliament, if we decided to do a defence lawyers, does attack the cooperating witness as a liar S, someone's trying to save his own skin and will see that work my prediction is not because it sounds like regains will be very, very corroborated by documentary evidence in his short of their to tell the story but will see when he testifies. One last point upon an important: how has been treated as you talk about the podcast adding a couple weeks ago, he's been treated very well, considering that you violated the terms of his release, you know he's been remanded in custody. He had allowed. occasion to meet with his lawyers, he had a laptop himself.

By his own admission, so that he was treated like a vip in jail. notwithstanding any of that dial trumped aside way another trial, because why not? What else is you have to do? and tweeted a little while ago this morning quote looking back on three who is treated worse, Alfonse Capone easing the whole name, legendary my boss, killer and public enemy number one or Paul Manafort political operative. and Reagan. Dull darling now serving solitary confinement, although convicted of nothing, whereas the rush, collusion, that's a mishmash of non sequiturs. absolutely no sense at all. When Thou drums looking back on history, he should maybe try that before tweeting about criminal defendants. Her operate. This is narrow and I'm calling from New York heard lots of journalists on television and radio, suggesting that we read the indictment that have come down the sleep of the russian

Where did you go to read her type? Thank you thanks marrow and I think, to look at a really good point. I think that if you really want understand, what's going on, it's fine to listen to a park ass, its fine, listen to dependence on television, but you really get feel for what's going on in detail, rather than in sound bite by Irina Dogma, selves and by the way, many these documents are actually very well written and tell a story is not just in all legal terms and jargon and its will time to look at them, typically because we're in the age of the internet, anytime, you see a story pop up a new indictment or a guilty plea, or some other such development in the middle instigation, usually typical. In your times, article arose regional article, Washington, Post article, does to the document, but I would also like to put in a plug fur very good friend been witness and his lofty UR blog you gotTa Laufer blog that come the commentary on

site is usually excellent annually, pretty quick and deeper than what you see in YO, mainstream newspapers and the law so have the documents do you can read directly I guess this week is bill broader was came on the show in October to talk about them. if his lawyer, Sergei magnetically, what bill has done to seek justice for his friend since that time. A lot happened at the recent Helsinki summit, Vladimir Putin, specifically and personally asked revealed to be handed over to Russia request. The president trumped called an incredible offer. I speak with bill about, what's changed for him, for our country and for the world, that's coming up

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thirty five dollars off your purchase borough, makes the luxury couch for real life. Bill broader welcome back to the show, is the bill. Broader sequel, thanks for being with us greatly so I will say we had you on the show many months ago and news about Russia and the news about you? The news about the magnets. Gagged has Really gotten more important and the other thing I want to tell you I don't think there was another episode that we ve done in the show that resonated more with with listeners. I can't tell you how many people have said to me how much I appreciate the education you gave them about Sergei Magnets key and about oligarchs in Russia about Putin and his conduct Thank you again for for coming on and in telling the story has been my pleasure in and thank you for highlighting the story, because it is so important that everybody knows what's. really going on with magnets, key and Putin and how this forms a crucial point.

The whole geopolitics of Russia right now for those in oak three or four people in the glow that are listening now, but who didn't listen to the first episode? Can you do like it like a ninety seconds, summary of whose redeeming Nevsky was why he was important and what the law does that I'll pass and multiple countries Sesar Gaming Nevsky, was my lawyer in Russia, Sergei discovered, a massive Putin, crony corruption scheme where they were stealing two hundred and thirty million dollars of taxes that I paid to the russian government from the russian government. Sergei took that information as it as a russian patriot. He exposed it testified against the corrupt officials involved instead of treating him as a hero, The russian government arrested him. They put in pre trial. Detention, they tortured for three hundred and fifty eight days and they killed. Sir Gaming Whiskey

November sixteenth thousand nine at the age of thirty seven, Since then, I ve been on a mission to get justice for Sergei, which result in something named after Sergei called the Magnificat, which is of legislation first passed in the United States into thousand twelve, which impose this visa sanctions and acid This is on the people. Who killed. Sir gaming is key and the people who do similar types of human abuses in Russia and Vladimir Putin really hates that, because Vladimir Putin is a man, Who does human rights abuses? he has a lot of assets in the West, including states, knew so you put his assets it. How much I estimate he's worth two hundred billion dollars, which makes him the richest man in the world and in order to keep that money safe. He doesn't keep it in Russia, he keeps it in a marrow. banks and british banks and in stated Switzerland in France and other places, and he feels any

right to feel this way. He feels vulnerable because His money may end up getting, seized and frozen, and that's been. That's been the objective of my campaign and I believe, And he has his own behaviour demonstrates it that we found Achilles heel, which is this is the magnets key. I certainly ITALY hate your guts. He does. What we'll talk about and he mentioned by name whenever he, whenever you can, but this first on it, just explore more on how successful you, pain has been on the magnets gaps or pass in the United States by an over, margin. How many countries now have some version of the magnets gap so the menus get past nine December, fourteenth two thousand twelve rush to sign into law in December. Fourteen thousand twelve in the United States under Obama pass ninety two to four in the Senate. Eighty nine percent of a house of representatives. We then got Canada, to impose their version of the Minsk. Yet and that path, unanimously in in their house of Commons and unanimously in their Senate?

and became lie in October of two thousand seventeen. We then ended up Lithuania Latvia, Estonia Recently, Britain, United Kingdom, along with you, Walter and so there is now seven countries that have made nevsky acts and Ass right now, there are nine countries, parliaments that are now debating and introducing magnet ski acts? That includes a number of countries. France, Germany, Sweden, Denmark, HOLLAND, Then we have Australia, which is we ve got something cooking. South Africa are Ukraine. In just two days ago, Moldova, and without any intervention for me, and the model when Parliament introduced a magnet ski act and others nine countries on deck. It looks very missing? That will get a bunch more signed up soon in what's the big get real well that the key for me is

France. Why? France, France, is where every self respecting kleptocratic from Russia has a villa Their villages and central pay in cap for raw capped anti, but, of course parliament's in Paris, and so If we get France, it will really just hit these guys right between the eyes, but it has an actual practical by what what percentage of russian oligarchs or self respecting then they respect themselves, but they certainly value themselves knave and more. Moreover, they get respect their properties, and so we take those properties away from them. There's no way to make these people more in fury it Madame and expose who are the people who were antagonistic towards the magnets gagged in some countries, including France, as a people who benefit financially from spending by the oligarchs. Yes, so even if we had a long drawn out fight in the UK and we find-

the minutes get past. But there is a huge group of people. and you could almost see them physically, because These oligarchs were spending so much money in London. They were gone a buying these here. villages and houses and in Central London, they said real estate agents in the men, the lawyers who helped them by the properties and in the past who run the boutiques in all this concierges and car dealers and in all these people, s son, part of the economy but they're all very visible in there all very close to parliament? And they were all fighting like hell to make sure that this thing didn't happen and it was only after the script- all poisoning when when effectively it was determined that the russian government it was involved, in a terrorist attack using chemical weapons that the government couldn't argue against it anymore? I'm and we got it, passed but there's a lot of like critically France and Germany, which is the other big prize, but those can

there's a lot of russian money flowing into a lot of different places and others, those people who get that money, don't stop getting eggs golden goose, and so there there are arguing again in the end. It is a tough fight or countries in which you get it passed, I'm guessing it eases the way in other countries. Very much so in South Africa. The? U S to pass amendments geared, took a long time before the next one, so we get the first, the? U S and two thousand twelve, and it took till two thousand seventeen to Canada and part of the reason for that is that if I go to another country as they listen the, U S is doing this, you should do and and theirs people who say well, you know U, s is really is wherever you, no unilateral countries, this out, there's or flexing its muscles. I don't know, but They won't Canada's done it right nice neighbours to the north end with what it simply to people who are like Anti American out in the rest of the world, but I never never encountered anybody was Anti Canadian. An answer do you have you, Madam Trump.

so there you go and he's been casting aspersions on our friends to the north in recent times. The first, so is that the prince, work that you do these days to try to get the magnets gag past I venture to jobs on a full time activist, a full time, justice activist, one of my Activism jobs is to get the magnets get past. I would say that that takes up a majority the time and this something which I am doing is I'm tracing the money thirty million dollars that thirty minutes key discovered and was exposed, was killed over a tracing that money to countries. we have a team of forensic investigators here that I manage we ve been doing this rate and a half years and one night when I find the money we file, detailed criminal complaints with the law enforcement agencies of those countries. We try to convince countries open criminal investigations to freeze the money into prosecutor, people benefit from it and since we saw that process. We ve found the money, I would say more or less. We found all the money we ve trace it

by twenty six different countries. There are now fifteen life estimations going on around the world, and not only does this expose the Kramer Sergei Magnifica was killed over, but we ve effectively expose the entire Putin, money laundering pipe to the west and a lot of other illicit funds for through those pipes and end to the extent that Britain is mad at me, he's probably equally mad about the magnets gagged and the fact that there are now fifteen life investigations going on about his dirty money around the world. Right when flattery, rails against magnets gagged, and you know hollers about it invokes you did that actually help your call it, although it may not be personally, for you then end up back firing on him and helping your cause bigtime big time, and so eleven asked me what so like who's the best advocate for your cause in the world, and my answers: Retinal SIMPLE, as Lattimer Putin,

so he's. I mean I think we have established that he's. At least some people think is a clever guy in a strategically and tactically smart. So why did you do it well, I think your ear overestimating him a bit more people are overestimating him, a bit he's not stupid for sure, but strategic he's very tactical It is also very emotional and very reflexive, and so there is a that goes on in Russia, which is like you know. If you do something they have to do something back to you just like nobody can like wait quietly for, next move and so that every we do serve provokes reaction. Every reaction that we provoke ends up creating more sympathy the cause, more awareness of the cause I mean asked, Putin mentioned me and in Helsinki I started getting phone calls from petitions and in european countries that I've been working on all saying they are punished. his cards. We now know how much she cares about this today. That anyone was questioning the efficacy of the magnets gag

he's bringing you up and his ring up magnets key them than is obviously good thing, how moving on this thing now, adding up Look I'm going when you mentioned on the show last time that it gets under Putin. Skin, I'm sure the sum listeners were sceptical and thought. Well, it's Azra Self, important, he'll, browsers, part how'd, you know he's powerful person. He leads a decent size country. As you have said, he has no twenty billion dollars, potentially holdings around the world. So how can I get under skin and then when he affirms that and takes it? Obviously true, it gives you a lot a credible. I take really funny is that I have got a lot of fun lot of phone calls from journalists before the summit, Coming to me as a person who knows Putin well as russian expert commentator, you know that some questions and so on and serve coupled before the summit I would think about putting out its which I had actually been drafted thing. I wonder Vladimir Putin's gonna bring up my name at the summit. I wrote it out on Twitter and then I thought you know

I been erased it can. I thought you know what that sounds so self centered in and self important people going to really make fun of me. It's actually kind of better that he mentioned your name as noise would say so spontaneous without station at means that without provocation actually did provoke him, and I should point this out: waves send send tweet tweet. He slid into his dm, doesn't happen, so I didn't send the tweet and in this wasn't wasn't particular intentional bet, but Time magazine got in touch with me: couples before the summit said. You know you, you wanna write something about that. Summit in your feelings about it I said yeah, sure and so I wrote a letter to Donald Trump, an open letter to Donald Trump saying. Dear president Trump. Let me tell you a few things about Vladimir Putin and I put bunch of things, and I said that he's some a wire, a bald faced liar he's a cold blooded killer he doesn't negotiate. He will lie to you, he'll, tricky, etc, etc. They put all this into this letter and in of my guys say: will you know we probably translators and russian and

So we translated into russian- and I put it on the echo Moscow. Radio blog, which is one of the last ways where you can actually put stuff, is not favourable. Putin Anna It got something like four hundred thousand or maybe more downloads, which is which is like a record for this blog and that summit in Putin's camp saw it, and I think that that I think they were intent to bring me up in the private meeting with Trump but they got so Putin got so provoked by this that he decided to like. Shit back out at me, which is why he brought me up in the public meeting which, as we agreed, wait helpful to my cause, Rachel Lifecycle, Helsinki for another minute. That's where President Donald Trump Lehne Report and they were alone together for having in two hours plus. Do you have any doubt that, though I guess we don't have any doubt has been mentioned after the fact, but

wouldn't foot what amount of that time do you think they were talking about you and the magnetic? Yet I think that that they probably spent a majority of the time Let me in a manuscript yet again that may sound self important, but this is something that we We truly upset Putin and we can look back over history and say This was the first time that they brought me in the magnet ski act up. If you remember- and this is all in code but in in in Hamburg at the G20 meeting in July, two thousand seventeen Trump had up at a dick, dinner with all the other heads of state Trump whenever Putin and he sat down and talked for for quite a while and when truck was asked whether they talk about he said adoptions right, which is code for the magnet again. Yes, russian adoptions. What were banned in reaction to manipulate, and neither the more talk about adoptions, their talk about me and magnanimity, and then before that the term A vessel net skier, the famous russian lawyer on Behalf of the russian government, was in Trump Tower

Donald Trump, Junior, Jared, cushions and Paul manner for talking about again about me and menu and so this has been going on for quite a while- this is not. This is a real obsession of pollutants and- and I am quite confident that a majority of the time was spent talking about me in an minnetaki and furthermore, by the way so the day after the summit, when Putin brought me up in relation or in relation to two, as swap of me, verses, Swell twelve Georgi agents, which were indicted in the Miller investigation that so the day your words and the Russians then said we have a whole bunch of other people. We would like to be swapped as well and they made a list of people and on that list the top of the list was my for the former? U S a bastard, Russia right and then you had a homo other people, Kyle Perker, who was the empress in the? U S: Senate, who drafted the magnets Gatt

Bob Otto, a senior state department, intelligence officer who verified all the facts of the magnet ski act. You David Kramer former. U S, department official, who is at Freedom House who helped me lobby for scared. The winner and other former state an official who conceived of magnets Gatt three members of the Department of Homeland Secure, Three special agents of the carbon of homeland security who, in stated the money laundering from the I'm thirty may Nevsky had exposed the came to New York right as everybody on the list was somehow connected to magnets key when making a very clear that that was foremost on Vladimir Putin's mind. Let me ask you this for you. In Helsinki, we watching the public press conference meeting at which your name was mentioned, or did you go back and watch them So what happened was I was actually on vacation. I was beginning my next book and I, sort of try to isolate myself in a quiet place. Ragged focus with my computer and I and

was sitting there, and I had my phone face down and M it certain vibrating, my phone cabin vibrating vibrating, and I and I was- really tempted not to look at it is trying to concentrate on just just wouldn't stop so I turned it over and there is a whole bunch of me calls and a bunch of notifications on twitter and text messages. I'll say bill. Have you The summit, if you realize what's going on- and at that point I logged into the summit then- and I had an opportunity to watch it after the fact. So what did you say? You watch it, and you hear him invoke your name in front of the world. First was surprising to you. Was it upsetting to you? Did you think strategically, as we ve been too seeing this isn't be helpful to me in the cause, the dumper. What was your reaction in the moment? I had a two different reactions. My reaction to Putin was this is not surprising. This is like the fifth time he's he's mentioned me in public. The thing

I did find a little surprising in a little upsetting, was the fact that trumped didn't shoot him downright there and then said. That's ridiculous! We're not gonna do that. Far from it he made ready. To something being an incredible offer. What'd you understand troubles referring to when he said it incredible offer. Civic Trade was Putin, said, okay Miller is indicted. These twelve Jerry, you agents, will give more, access to those agents in return, we would like to have access to bill broader and about of american government officials and intelligence officers, who we believe are part of the building, criminal group that was the credible offer that was being proposed and to add insult to injury. When this was then discussed at a press conference with Sarah Huckabee Saunders? a few days later, the times asked her. Well. Are you gonna do that deal and they said and she said well, we were considering it happened,

I've been on that at this moment it separate apart from you, the implications of such a thing: go far beyond you in the bathroom a fall in others. It means basically that this administration, this for a while made it appear that- and maybe it still true made it appeared, They would consider swaps American citizens, and perhaps UK citizens like you, are you, a murderous, thuggish regime based on no evidence when you make of it. well, I mean it's is: is abhorrent. It's it's unbelievable. I mean it's it's beyond beyond anything I could have ever imagined at now. I never believed that it would actually go through, even if he wanted two, because the rule of law in the United States on it, so many different levels would prevented, but the fact that he thought it good idea and the fact that he didn't rejected outright was quite disturbing in terms of his own judgment. About this whole thing I mean the most. Important condemnation of that came the next day when the Senate, voted unanimously. Ninety eight zero to reject this this,

Didn't vote unanimously on anything anymore. So I ask you this: the last time and are even ass is alot. How much do you worry about your own personal safety and has at worry increased or remain calm? and over time, the perception is that that my risk has gone up the reality, is that my risk has always been high. I've known for long time. How infuriated Putin is with me and how much I've got another his skin and end. So I've been it, in a sort of danger zone for a long time, and there are lots of different incidents where they ve tried to get me in different ways and then I don't feel more endanger in in a certain way. I'm lesson danger by the fact that Putin is being so public about it, because its limits, some of their opera It is because everyone will know prudent, did it but doesn't stop him from trying to get me

the most aggressive ways they try to get me or through extradition in Interpol, as opposed to just knock me off on the street, because if you can get me back to Russia than they can kill me, easily, with footfall plausible deniability, whereas ass, how important I'm sorry they plausible deniability. You believe that Vladimir Putin attempted to kill Sergei people in the UK correct. I do yes and lots of people believe that to be true right, yeah- and he must have known and recall- was someone who acted in in a intelligence capacity and who is one of the people traded for the ten spies at my office prosecuted back in two thousand ten and Putin would have to know that if someone like Sergei Report was assassinated,

under suspicious circumstances in the United Kingdom that blame would fall on him right. You think he cares or not how important a plausible deniability really well. I think that that here, You could get away with it the same way as they thought they could get away with Litvin the NGO's murderer. The one person was murdered in London. We using polonium to ten. I don't think that he thought that that they would find out. But what the compound was and be able to identify it. Men identify back to Russia and aunt em, it's so what hey hates more than anything or consequences he likes to do things were. We can evade a country as it wasn't me were, shooting plain and say how prove it were doping the Olympics is: are you can't prove it in any hates getting caught, because getting caught has caused So what are the consequences of scrip all? Well, all of a sudden, in hope all sorts of russian spies or been kicked out of every country in the West Oligarchy

their visas and there is now do their net there. Now seizing properties of oligarchs and life is very complex. in the? U S, even sorted damn sanctioning russian oligarchs and those are really serious consequences which which he he doesn't like, and so I thought If he had known what the consequences would be, is Bali wooden of he wouldn't try that industry. My people, turkish upon his daughter, were poisoned by another job nerve agent, while they were in the UK in both those survive is barely they survive just barely, but they survived and in their constantly messing up these assassinations, the same thing with with lifting Anko. They tried three times to kill. It vignette go with his radioactive material back in two thousand and six three attempts they finally got him and when they I didn't get him when they figured out what that there was plenty of two hundred and ten they started. They went around with their geiger counter that that picks up polonium, two hundred and ten, and they like found

just like a Hansel and Gretel bread translate the assassins just left everywhere they went, and so by the time they figured out, they could trace it exactly to who the who did it. They have found it in Think of the hotel rumour Andrey Luke. I was saying he's one of the elect the sands and they found it on his his seat in the airplane, flying back to Moscow and all sorts of stuff people a trip. all sorts of evil genius to these Russian, what I call KGB operations, but These are really serve sloppy. the amateurish stuff, what they're doing him and they get caught him and every time they get caught, there's consequences, Putin, hates then, and so a lot of stuff. You they prefer to do in Russia, where they can do it in and there's no consequences. There can never be an investigation, and so even Boris NAM. Softwares himself was the

The previous first deputy prime minister became an opposition figure really going ahead on against Putin and he was shot and killed right in front of the Kremlin in February, two thousand fifteen and There are the governments, as well as a terrible, nay prosecuted, a couple of of Chechen hit men and claim that that that that was it and, of course the order probably came directly from Putin, but nobody was ever gonna call him responsible. Russia for this, because you question facing bizarre, but people been asking it do you think that in whatever authorize action like that, an assassination and killing on american soil, or is that a bridge too far I'm hoping he won't have open. My eyes were a lot of people but words are other limits. You say obviously, that the easiest way to get that dirty work done is to do it on russian soil but they clearly gone beyond that in the UK. But what about America

politically we need when he has some one who appears to be oddly, an suspiciously close allies in the White House. Well said so: here's what I was able to support for small his close allies when he thinks TAT is close ally in the White House, doesnt control. You know the the is in the FBI, who are doing an investigation, but but people often say to me: will you be alive? they for in America than you would be in England is look at all the assassinations in England, response to that is that the assassinations in England are per capita There's a lot more Russians living in England, and so therefore more of them are being killed, here I mean that there a guy named Vladimir lesson. Vladimir lesson was the guy who started Russia today, television and all the other began to Russia and he apparel he had like turned over to provide evidence to the Department of Justice on some on russian money laundering. All of a sudden he was found dead from blood force trauma and his hotel room Du Pont Circle.

Strangely the Washington D the police labelled it not suspicious, and I know how you get for a strong line is not suspicious, but in any case them is that it these things don't happen Erika and end. I guess if Putin felt suitably enraged. He would do it anywhere. I don't think, there's any geographic constraint. What he's doing in it, certainly a lot of Russians who can America and do this if, if that's their order for him for them to do that, I don't want to increase your level of jeopardy. So I can ask you what particular precautions you might take for your personal safety, but what d'you take the clash I think about doing things, one way or another to protect yourself or do you decide? You know what is going to happen to happen. You can't live that way. just do it you otherwise do so. The answer is that I take a huge number of precaution. I've got all sorts of different protocols them to make it more difficult, but I dont live.

fear now, if they really wanna, if they want to rub some Nova chalk on my door knob, I can't I can't stop touching door knobs them in in living in, but I certainly do things obvious: serve precautionary measures to make it harder for them to succeed if they try. So you, you are fortunate enough to have resources, and you got your money Russia in time, and so I assume that some of the precautions are taken. The protocols you follow Why are resources? What about some of the other people on this list like how? How worried should some of them be like this at Stafford, Kyle Parker? Do you give them advice, and you talk as a community that you know to talk about the potential threat, what we all talk, we're all friends, we're allies, we'll talk together about the stuff, but in this I mean in the case of Kyle Parker the case of MIKE Mc for its truly shocking situation, because the cow Parker didn't they up every night until eleven for two years. Writing them.

Scared for any glory. Your mentioning his name, I mention his name in my book, but you know nobody knows. Kyle Parker he's doing it for great money is he is on a government salary? He did it service to his country. He did it as an american patriot who has devoted his life to public service. In return is now being targeted by the Russians and he deserves the full support and protection of the government that he's been serving in the fact, that there was any hesitation on the part of Donald Trump to history, Action is, is the most shocking part of this whole story? It has. It ever occurred to you to be less outspoken, or is that part of how you accomplish goals, in other words, if you were less over a thorn in Putin side with that, enhance your safety or do not think about that.

I think it's probably just just the opposite. I think that that, if I'm irrelevant is easier to kill, no one would care out here what you'd care. Thank you with my friends or care, but that the world wouldn't wouldn't care nearly as much and if there's one other overriding factor in this whole thing, which is that the objective, maximizes not my probability survival that the objective of trying to maximize is that Vladimir Putin's and his regime in him by definition, tortured for three hundred fifty eight days and killed Sir Gaming, its was my lawyer and Sergei was effectively killed as my proxy. He wouldn't still be alive today. If you hadn't worked for me and from that. I have this overwriting feeling of responsibility of guilt and of duty to go after people killed him and make them face. Justice is my burn indignation about this terrible. Fixable injustice. The drives me

every day to try to get some justice for surrogate and that justice is what's upsetting Putin, Sergei didn't back down, in in far more precarious circumstances than I mean he was sitting in their custody and so my duty to him, and I will continue to exercise his duty to go after the people are killed him and make sure every last one of them face is just as good and we- and we are glad you do that and in one of the things that you do in your work is, is to travel in your last There have been five times. I think that you were detained in some country based on the Russians, were taken advantage of paul- and there was another one in between your last visit to the show and- and today you in Spain not too long ago, what happened there is a remarkable story. So, as I mentioned, one of our tasks is to find the money that Sir Gaming, its key and covered in, was killed over and we found some of that money. A lot of it thirty million euros going to buy properties. Spain by Russians, and I

taken that evidence in submitted it to us famous prosecutor in Spain, a man named Jose Glinda, whose agree. is one of the most fearless prosecutors in the world, like you, and here on after russian gangsters, russian government officials and and prosecuted nearly fifty of them. In a previous case, submitted this information to two prosecutor Glinda, and here I did me to come to Spain to explain evidence on the thirtieth of May and we may appointment to meet seven, a m in his offices so go to Madrid to Spain I arrived the night before, and the twenty ninth and on them king of the thirtieth nine hundred and forty a dot m, as I'm walking out of my hotel room to get breakfast before my meeting with with the prosecutor. There too policemen standing outside my door. Having just approached they are for my idea I presented, and they compare it with a piece

or they have- and they say, you're under arrest. My say what for and they see, Interpol, Russia and you're. Here we go again and so at this point I, the manager of the hotel, was with them, and he said he said, Spanish, can you give this man a moment, packers bags, and so well as pack my bags, I surreptitious We tweeted out urgent, I'm being arrested in Madrid on us on a russian interpol arrest warrant, you're taking me to the police station now right, further to a lot of people, so that we I knew when I sent out, I was gonna, send things there was gonna, get people highly agitated and interest the policeman didn't confiscate my phone and so they demonstrated from. I take me down put me into the police car Nanda, and I thought you know we people aren't gonna, believe it maybe they'll think of some kind of hoax. As I decided to take a picture from the back of the police cars, I took a picture there is clearly in the back of the police, car and did that out an entity.

Whether there is any question about whether as being restaurant, that that that satisfy that question and in and from that moment on interest, the whole thing went viral in answer to normally when you're arrested in a situation like this, your lawyer calls up prosecutor and the polluter tells a prosecutor. You know this is a big mistake. This again it there's. This is gonna, be huge scandal. This is wrong. This is bad and and skeeters. Oh yeah. Everybody says that in an in over the of several months that the scandal than emerges, and then they decide that they actually he was right in and they let you out. In the meantime, you ve spent three for six months, sweating in it in a spanish prison. Because I tweeted it out by the time I got to the police station like two hours into it. Everybody in the whole world realise this is like the most shocking miscarriage of justice and scandalous arrest and interpol General Headquarters called at the spanish police had released this man immediately two hours into it, and I was released him, and that was the end of the story, and there is. There is literally like

seventy eight, MRS Carlsson, readiness, six six hundred emails and I was pretty pretty dramatic and- and thankfully I was out after two hours, I even got to see prosecutor Glinda. I is only forty five minutes. To my meeting and carried on with the process, countries that you won't go to, because your concern about Interpol, yeah say that most countries, I won't go to basically any country that that doesnt have a rule of law I won't go to and that most countries in the world so I'll travel too. the United States and Canada on some of the big safe european country, but I'll never go to represent I was invited by members of parliament in ITALY about in italian Magnificat about a month ago, and this was, after the whole Madrid incidents in,

and that the new Prime Minister of ITALY is is a very am pro Putin, Prime Minister, an side. I cancel that trip because I didn't want to be a pawn in some favor. Important right. Did you assume that all your communications are being listened to by the Russians I assume so in and in fact in his can, can you stop Emily me bill well that the year you're not on their party invitation list either, but we know the gift rates in effect. For those listeners you know, no freedom is The anti that the first person on the anti magnets, given that the Russians created after the mischievous was formed so for validation. Before, though I will go to ITALY, I will not let's go to Russia, but I will definitely ITALY that that the Turks they get you in ITALY. So well here, for you know its money. I had this personal reason for being interested in that.

veils Review and Michael Macfarlane others, because there has been talk of trumped up allegations against me, fired one in Turkey, and so I'm falling all this business with Interpol very very closely. My son Well, it interpol needs to be fixed, it there's a serious problem and interpol, which is that dictatorships and corrupt regimes have the same, First, interpol and civilised country is no use it to choose their enemies in an Anders really effectively, no consequence if they abuse Interpol, it's entirely possible on and even probable that happens to MIKE Macfarlane Kyle Parker in these other other people, in in the? U S, government! It is entirely possible that that that the Turks can use it as you and end. One of my big advice see plans is to try to get in all reformed and so that these dictatorships can abuse it because

was a system that should work to catch fugitives. It should be used by criminal regimes to go after their enemies. If you need help on that, we should not talk of light, but don't you mommy I can't I'm on board with the reform of interpol for those purposes as well we're we're almost at times. I want to ask you in a couple of broader questions. What do you think is the outlook for Russia for Russian Eu Us relations for the mission you have with magnets ghek? What? What? What can we see in the future, given the craziest we ve seen so for in recent times at Helsinki and in other places, let's start with it. The that the disease, the diseases, Klopstock Racine, corruption, Putin, is stone. A lot of money I was effectively all the money from his people, so is russian people are angry in order for four Putin too,

in power with a bunch of angry people, he's going do two things. One is he's gotta deflect the anger and so is creating problems all over the world he's invading countries creating enemies and Second, is he's gotta repress his people through dictatorship and both of those create their own set of problems, because the West like him to create problems and they sanction him. by sanctioning him. It reduces the economics even further and by region, the economics even further he's gotta then create more problems. Putin is, is never going to stop cleaning troubles in the West, MRS Gonna get worse and worse and and while there may be this, this strange inappropriate, cosy relationship between Trumpet Putin there isn't between anywhere else in America and putting an end there. There is absolute saving anger and rage among the people in the congressional branch who are not gonna tolerate prudent in this

I find that those are not as outspoken as you might help them to be not well enamel this is all just a brief moment in time and what I can say is that full weight and force of United States ultimately comes down and Russia, it's be devastating and it may not come while Trump as president. Maybe it does, but it will come because that's the way everybody else feels and it's not just yet. As the United States here where I live in great Britain and other use, be huge tolerance of lot about stuff. The rushes doing there isn't any more and its politically totally unacceptable, and I I that reverie, where I'm going, and so I think Russia becomes more more isolated. I dont think that he's gonna be able to long term get away with the stuff. I don't think he's a strategy to think long term and he's doing himself no favours in terms of all this aggressive stuff, but anyway. He has no choice, because if he would, creating all always anger towards the west. They be angry. many would be out of a job and in jail. Pretty quick is a great diversion. Indeed has exactly what it is

to build one thing. I want to ask you, as we end after last appearance on the show, a lot of people whom, play the story and believe in the cause of your fighting, wants to know how they could help and what they could do. What do you say to those people? The best way to help is to be outspoken in social media in person and wherever possible about the displeasure and and anger towards this stuff. That's a moose politicians, that. That's what moves policy in the more people who we sympathise with me in an endless cause, speak out, speak out on Twitter, begun and Facebook against all the russian Botz. That's the way to keep this process moving in the right direction, so that our leaders understand that that's that's the real mood of of the people of the country, Did you find words that end with bill? Thank you again for being on the show. I just want you to know. I hope you know this. There lots of people who were pulling for you who are,

worried about your safety in wanting to be safe, but also going to continue to do this great work that you're doing your inspired by Sergei Magnets key, but the work you're doing is inspiring lots more folks as well So I wish you luck and will check in with you soon. If you need any help, don't forget to tweet and out will be their voice. Thank you. So much So. The end of the show are usually a story that is in one or two categories, the first category something the news it struck me and I comment on it and the other. Occasionally from time to time, is little bit sort of what I did of a weakened and Today I want to talk about what I did over the weekend. So my daughter is in music. Can she plays the Viola and she must classical music, And she's at a music camp is very small a small town, Western Massachusetts and on the weekends parents can come their children, and so my family went to go visit. Our daughter.

on Saturday evening at the end? we have a lot of rain. There was a wonderful concert with lots of people. Warming and clean my daughter at a converted, white barn. in the hills of Western Massachusetts, And then, on Sunday, all the children at the camp to a church and they sing and some people perform. The church service began with a Mozart spring quartet, It was lovely, so there we are in the village. Of coming to an end. Actually, got to be a beautiful Sunday, it's an echo, equal service and people are talking Nature and there's a portion of the programme where churchgoers get it share. Their concerns, joys and what they call spirit. Sightings, went and got up and talked about how grateful he was way back. Nineteen sixty four when he hitchhiked all the way from Boston to California and back

based on the generosity of a hundred and twenty eight different drivers who ferry back and forth across United of America. Instead, it was one focus every single one of them was a nice person and he made back alive, another woman not to say how she was driving. Over the weekend after the rain, had ended and was surprised by the sight of five Turkey's crossing the street, which made a smile, and I smiled and more broadly, when another woman in the churchyard. You don't see that Manhattan. Do you that would be true depending on the definition of Turkey, you probably and where the stories going, what the hell is pre talking about, and the only point of making is. It was about an hour and a half in a small little church where nobody was talking about politics now he was talking about the rush investigation. There was just warmth and appreciate for other things in life, and you know during the week as you follow the news and I did his pocket

and I care. But all these issues a lot. We had a spirited conversation with bill broader this week. It is important to remember that there are things that are apart from politics apart from Washington, apart from Donald Trump. Apart from the house, and some of those things are music, nature and family, and it's got to be reminded that and it was a nice oasis from all that storm and rang. We usually here about during the week in Ankara All of you to find time to experience those things too, Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned, thanks again to my guest bill Browder. If you like the show right and reviewed on Apple podcast, every positive review helps new listeners, find the show. Send me your questions about news in politics, tweet them to me at three Ferrara with the hashtag Askri, or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine thousand two hundred and forty seven

seven three three six nine too for pre or you can send me an email to stay tuned. A cafe Dhaka stated is presented by Catholic produced by the team, Pineapple Street media cat Aaron, Crisper Rubik, Henry Velocity, Generalised Berman, Joel Level and MAX Linsky. Music is by Andrew Dust and special tax. Julia Doyle Jefferson. Nobody inject MAX, I'm preparers statehood.