From CAFE and the Vocs media pack has network welcome to stay tuned, I'm prepared, if you think about it, about the only thing that distinguishes humans from any other animal population is our ability to make sense of the passage of time by telling stories about it. It helps define who we are. That's the process of deep, building and understanding. History is is figuring out who we are where we came from and where we can go. That's how to Oxford in and Joanne Freeman. They are two of the most distinguished historians of our time. Heather the professor at Boston College, where she teaches nineteenth century american history and Joanna The professor at Yale, push you focuses on the illusionary era and the founding of the republic their enjoin are also the co hosts of a new history. Podcast

called now and from CAFE in the box media podcast network step, and so does out now, and it focuses on third line between foreign and domestic policy, built in the abide ministration and a key moment in american history. pleased to welcome Heather and Joanne to the cafe team, to work with them and to learn from them today. They join me for a wide ranging conversation about why they decided to start the podcast, how this is a neatly fraught moment for american democracy and weather you're getting better at acknowledging the dark chapters of our history. That's coming up stay to support for this. Cast comes from Verizon Business, Verizon Business, unlimited plants, unlimited data, no overages and more built right for business, with the speed of horizon five g. Give rise in business, unlimited plans from his lows: thirty dollars per line, visit, Verizon Dotcom, slash This slash plants per month with five

on business. Unlimited start includes paper free billing without open, select, smartphone agreement, discounts, taxes fees in terms apply five g nationwide available in twenty seven hundred plus cities on most Verizon, five g devices find shelter white band available only in parts of select cities high. I remember you I'm a programme manager, Google right now, lots of people. Looking for ways to learn new job skills. That's where we created Google careers certificates. online training programme for fast growing fields. Like I t support project man, men, data, analytics user experience, design and more. You don't need any prior experience and you can be Jobbery in about six months. So put your skills to work. Go to grow, dark, Google, slash certificates, let's get to your questions, this question comes in a tweet from an eight Alexander who s Have you made any progress, getting the word Papa them added to spelling bee

so maybe I don't know is what Renee is talking about. There's a puzzle game from the New York Times that in recent months I've become kind of obsessed with called spelling bee beside about how to spell everyday, you get seven letters from what you're supposed to try to make it where it is possible and if you make a word that uses all seven letters, that's anagram for extra points. when system changes every day, depending on the difficulty of the puzzle? Proper names are not counted his words, so I guess it's more or less the scrabble rules a completely anyone to fund gaming Renee clearly pays attention to the things I tweet, because foodstuffs, even ethnic foodstuffs, tend to be recognised words on than your time spelling bee, but I was kind of miffed one day when puppet and was not accepted

it's a nice lengthy word for points for those of you who, don't know don't know, is or as we call it in our home popper, it's kind of like the equivalent of of getting bread on the table before the rest of the meal comes. I guess it's a season flat bread made from dried dough, Bric Country the way my mom made it and the way get it an indian restaurants, silicious and lovely, and should be a word recognised on the spelling bee. In fairness to dispelling me, there are other indian foods that that do get counted and do get recognized like Non, which is a good word, always get any end. The delicious bread tender which the clay oven in which non and then to reject and other things, are cooked and also be G, h e, which is a type of clarified butter that is used in a lot of indian cooking. I will confess also that I'm not great at Spelling Bee. I was quit when you get to the genus level and for those who know what I'm talking about

I have never once gotten Queen bee thanks for that legal question. This question comes at an email from Craig the right typewriter. I had the I too have been called for grand jury duty in the western district of New York. It looks as for a really long duration? What might I expect from the experience of different than the usual jury duty, one might serve on how to prosecutors view the grand jury process? Is it the formality or does the process really add value? Does a great questions? Thank you for serving it's a really important kind of service that

a little bit less is known about it. As you point out, people watch television, they watch movies and they see a lot of actual trial practice and they said you were sitting on panels. Would it actually a trial in folding little bit more unclear what happens behind closed doors? The grand jury is intentionally a black box in many ways their rules, both in the federal in the state system everywhere in the country that require a tremendous amount of grand jury secrecy, depending on who you are in the process, certainly, if you're a grand jury shortly, if you're a prosecutor you can't reveal any information that goes on for that is disclosed within the grand jury told me. There are large differences between serving on the grand jury and Serbian, an actual jury among them in practice fourthly in the grand jury, there's no judge just a prosecutor and witnesses and potentially documents that will get shown to the grand jury, Remember the grand jury, your obligation and duty is to pay attention to witnesses review documents, as your asked to do

and, if presented with a draft and diamond vote on whether or not to approve the indictment, so that's just a charge and that's very different from what happens at a criminal trial. When your irregular you're sitting in a court room when you have to decide guilty or not guilty, the standards of proof are incredibly different and make a huge difference in the grand jury, just probable cause that the person or persons identified probably committed the crimes that have been identified and criminal trial, of course, prove beyond reasonable doubt at a criminal trial in the courtroom, you need unanimity and the federal system in the grand jury. Just a majority. now how to prosecutors view the grand jury process. I guess it depends on the prosecutor and it depends on the grand jury system because it varies from jurisdiction. Jurisdiction, as the federal system which are familiar with New York state, is a wholly different system in which sometimes defence lawyers are allowed. In the process, not so federal system and there's the popular equip. The grand jury. One died, a ham sandwich, and I take the point

It overstated adding part of the reason there is a very, very low likelihood of grandeurs, not returning a true bill which, essentially not returning and a diver, not approving an indictment as prosecutors are careful to make sure they have. efficient probable cause to go into the grand jury. And on occasion when there are a lot of question, coming from the grand jurors and I've experienced this myself, because you haven't put enough evidence for their something dicey about the legal provision. This applicable to this fact that you're putting forward to the grand jury with prosecutors will sometimes to his weight ass, the jurors the grandeurs to vote on the indictment until they can shore up their case and so no one way that I was taught. about the grand jury was obviously it's a necessary step in tool in proceeding in a case when he made the decision to charge me the grand jury to be with you, so that you can commence the case and get a judge assigned and proceed But the other thing is it's a preview of how ordinary Americans in the community will,

your case. You will understand from the questions they ask or the looks on their faces, whether they find what this is credible, whether they find your theories credible, and I thought it was a good lesson for prosecutors to be taught that the grand jury, information should be taken seriously and should allow you the opportunity to see how your case comes across to people who might be the kinds of folks will also serve as jurors and a criminal trial. Don't take it seriously. Ask questions if you have them don't go along with the crowd is because everyone seems to be nodding at the prosecutor and again it's important service you for doing it, stay tuned, there's more coming up after this, if you were from home like I do

the days can start to blend together, especially if you sit at one end of a webcam and your colleagues are far far away. If you're eating for those team meetings with lunch provided to add a little variety to your day, your employees might be feeling the same monotony door dash. The company. You know for food delivery now has a way to help your team stay connected. Nor dash for work makes complex orders simple. You can offer food benefits as an employee perk, it's called dash pass for work. There are no delivery fees and there'll be reduced service fees on eligible orders. Plus you create a more competitive benefits package that will help attract and retain top talent can't lose their it's an incredible remote, friendly work perk that people will appreciate. Take a closer look learn more by visiting, worked out door dash, dot com, slash preach, that's work that door dash dot com, slash preach, make work delicious well, it's finally happened

the world is opening up again and were hearing the word normal being tossed around a lot more. But after the year we ve had truly feeling normal is going to take some time and a little bit of work. If you of the many people who might be feeling overwhelmed and anxious, or if you find yourself having more bad days than you care to talk, space might be for you now more than ever is important for us to be patient with ourselves and seek out the support we might need. After all, half of american struggle with mental health tax base is here to health talks base is secure, affordable and easy to use your mental health matters and whether your apparent student or even part of a couple, that's looking for more support talk space has the right sort of professionals to meet your needs. Why wait leaks for unemployment when you can match with a licensed therapist today, with the tax base app set goals with your therapist on your schedule, chat any time and conduct live video sessions from anywhere

All part of my talk space is the number one online therapy platform to help you sort through any issue match with a licence therapists when you gonna talk, spaced out, come and get one hundred dollars off your first month with a promo code preach. That's. Why dollars off when you use code preach a talk, space, dot com, my guest today or historians, Heather Cox, Richardson, enjoying Freeman. They ve just launched a new podcast called now and then, which looks back at key moments in American street, to help make sense of our current challenges today, Heather enjoy enjoy me to discuss the state of american democracy, the forces, led to the rise of Donald Trump. In the modern GEO paid and how history will judge the early binding presidency, professor Heather Cox, Richardson enjoying Freeman? Welcome to the show it's a pleasure to be here thanks for having us

so we're recording this on a historic day, and I use the word historic intentionally given the industry that the two of you are in, but it's a historic day for us, a cafe in the box media Pakistan work because you have launched a joint podcast with us called now and then congratulations to greater So, thank you, isn't a core who finally made it. We ve got find the gun over the finish line. It's kind of amazing cause. I remember how long ago it was because space and time don't have the same meaning during the pandemic, but I was reminding Heather before we started taking today that she was a guest on stay tuned almost exactly a year ago, if you told me it was three months ago or two years ago, if we believed it either one of those things and then I reached out not that long ago. Again, if you tell me, was three months or a year ago, would believe you and got the Heather on the phone and talked about doing a podcast, and here we are.

Data, there's a question. There is calling for a comment I think it was. It must be in the winter, because I remember sitting in the back room where I work in the middle of a snow storm freezing on the phone with Yahoo. Yes, I will I was, I was warm in my basement. And then and then in that in that first conversation, as we were discussing a moment ago before a pet record, you said: there's really someone who's perfect for me to do the pact ass with. Yet whatever happened to that person, it was actually because you are, we are talking about When ideas- and I said yeah now they're- so many of these things up and those things out there, but you know be really cool and I know who I could do it with, and that was Joanne because we had done so many things together since a pandemic started, and it was really clear that we had a very good report and we worked together very well in the sort of media

So I am glad you decided to give it a try and one thing lead to another and we we pulled it together. I think I'm really happy to be the beneficiary of that, but I do remember in adverse conversation with you, Heather was when you talked about doing a pot cast as an extension of some things that you enjoy and also you are doing and educating the public and informing them, and I know how do you also do that through your letters from an American, but you, you used a phrase that I wanted to ask both of you about. You know we have a new president things depending on your perspective or more on track than they were before, but you says the phrase: there's still a lot to do, to write the ship of state and both of you care we about democracy and have been discussing. How know that seems to be the word of the day discuss all. I think we need to start early american history, don't shoot, show tricky Heather perspective

Ok, so I'll, just like you historians is how and then every once in a while. You have to go do than the other, but then always loses and that some hours aigrettes, let's be chronological, I will say that Heather and I in many ways, are engaged in the same kind of enterprise, which is as historians and its political historians. We think all the time about patterns in politics about the strengths and weaknesses of our particular. Kind of politics in the United States- and I also know that no four Heather for the last few years and for me for the last year or two We ve been using various media. To get out into the world and make clear that there is a crisis. democracy going on and that the only way to push things in the right direction is to get the public aware and engaged, and so that part what I think Heather and I and you anyone else plan to do with

with now, and then is it's part of a continuing enterprise to to make the point aware of, what's going on now, and what the longer routes of it are and about the fact. The people need to be aware and take action, and I would add that that one of the things that was really really jumped out to me about the trumpet ministration is a lot of people. Looked at that administration and thought of it is a wake up, call that this was a moment where they could really see that democracy was under siege, but historian the things it came to fruition during the the administration had their roots way back, I mean they had their let's say at least in world WAR two, but a lot of the mechanics of tomorrow, see came under siege in the nineteen eighties and one of the problems that I have found as he knows I consume so many different levels of media is its often very hard to get the back story, So you don't really understand why. Maybe it's important that a certain bill gets filibustered, because your

looking at that particular bill. But as a historian, if you stepped back and look at the broader sweep of american history, you can recognize anti democratic movements as they are building and as their picking up steam and eventually as they come, either to fruition or not, but they get stopped so that I think what you They have both done over the last several years is to say: hey. You know this individual event is part of a longer pattern that threatens our mark or say, and you really to understand that larger pattern. In order to see just why, for example, taxes said it Bill Miller Seven was so important. You get it if someone just like others, a bill in Texas? Well, it's not just the bill in Texas. It's a bill trying to keep certain member the population from voting and hears. Why that matters in America and here's how it is played out in a number of different ways through american history zone and end the thing that that makes clear- which I think also has been

increasingly obvious that this exists lurking out there, but it's existed for a very long time when you re create. those historical roots. You can get past the point that a lot of people, I believe, are still in at the moment, which is that the United States is exceptional to all other rules and problems that that somehow or other bad things happen in other places can't happen here and I've been saying for years that I think this assumption that somehow we're not vulnerable to things, because we're somehow different is really dangerous and particularly dangerous at this moment and when you can plug in those routes and show people the past and the ways in which there were fraught moments in the vast there were great contingencies in the past and which things could have gone a very different way. That's a pretty crucial, thing for people to understand. Now, when both of those things are really true for joint, you ever find yourself saying to people either in academia or outside. I told you so

we're not so special that the things that have happened and so American and parts of Europe can also happen in America. The interesting thing about this question is, I think, a lot about. What's the proper way for a historic to sound and speaking with the public when, in your mind, part of your mind, saying is Hulu Yale and I can see patterns of the vast and it looks like things are going in this direction and might even written about it. This way, I don't want it like come forth, the sun percent, or a figure say it is do looming in the future. You know I I I do what you do. You have to use our voice. I do I do it, I'm glad that you approve of it, because you never know if it's gonna appear airport guest or not, but can I tell people one thing, though they might be interested in without spoiling surprise. I believe in the first episode of your Parkhurst of now and then to end sings, do so, are you I want to put them out there because maybe

people weren't persuaded to subscribe and listen based on the the brilliant musings of two noted historians. They also my wanna hear too I I Do that all the time I do something that I believe is that that just pops out of me and then about ten seconds later. I think why did I do that? right, but I interrupted you were saying: not a cassandra figure oh yeah, I know just because I think, if you want people to listen and to hear You have to be in the moment and not looking ahead to some laden future, and so I think it's important for people coming forward at this particular moment in time to say we're in a moment of crisis, to make it clear right

Then predicting do we say: well, we don't know, what's going to happen next centres possible, there might be some do in our future, but if we act now, perhaps there won't be at now act. Now. Here's the other way you folks put it in the large show last week that you know a lot of folks think that history, the enterprise of history, is to excavate what happened? That's a lot of people think about it. That's all I'm sure I thought about it in high school and great school. Each of you has it ever way describing with the proper inquiries. It's not what happened. It's who cares, or so one remind me which of you says and why that's the proper inquiry and enterprise Heather you start first with who cares yet, while I'm, who cares energy writers oakum my gratitude to the three further? It is the dreaded Richardson question, because what historians related

different than journalists. Is journalists uncover the story, but historians understand different ways of looking at patterns and how societies change, which is really what we study and we take the events of of the anything we study and we try and figure out what created chain in that moment. So he has a great man. And is it social movements? Is it politics? Is it religion I? What creates jobs age, and so, when you look at, for example, you no law, that's in front of Congress or the insurrection on the capital and on January sex the real question for journalists is what happened? Who was where? How did things unfold? The question Historians is who cares like? Why is this particular moment of interest to human beings, says they're trying to figure out their world

Joanna Joanne, on the other hand, has distinctly inferior phrase. Call her rooms called. So what, so I was wondering moving to disagree. I think her knowledge and Eureka no, so what is better, but it may be a little bit with both of these phrases come if I'm wrong, there's almost an implied. Expletive I dont know if I imagine that I think there's a little bit of a proud. You know that little bit of an elbow. That's ok! So I'm with you. So what mean so you know I, like you, students do all kinds of great research and they write great papers and they come up with really interesting information, and that's all really good. But the big question in the end is so what what does this give us that we didn't have before in addition to that information? What is it tell us? So you know when students or whether undergrad for research paper,

or graduate students learning how to write professional articles, the so what I use it as a now the so what is really important and has to be really clear, particularly an article at the beginning and the end, because if there isn't a clear so what its unclear, whether people are actually going read, it was so what is what's the take away? And I would say there's an exploitative, but it is enormously deflating to have spent months and months and months working on a topic- and I am having some and go in alice- is all very interesting and Ms Richardson. But who cares ask me how I know, but does a management who does managed to turn and those people, don't ever Parkhurst, no, but they were pretty famous it- does managed to turn the

the events at every day. It helps you to figure out which one of which one of them are important and why and what they tell us about our present yo you I believe. Last week the two of you were discussing something about this moment and I think the phrase uniquely fraught was used and before we started digging, we were discussing how the word fraud is used, a lot, and maybe more probably now than ever before, the one we're talking about historians, who collectively have expertise over the long sweep of american history, one of you more about the founding, the other more about the around the civil war. When people like you say this is uniquely fraught shouldn't, we be the horrible terrified. Well, I think I may say this and I want to say yes, Lung New: do I'm trying to get you to do the doom voice? A guy? Do that's the doing voice. I do think on one hand, I think the combination of things that are facing right now. You could say it's a: u

Lee fraught movement, on the other hand, is a historian. You now It is a really dangerous word, because, as heatherstone by saying we lose Looking at a lot of things with very deep roots, and so the question isn't has this ever happened before that there no to crises in american history that are exactly the same with the precise same bundle of problems adding up to that crisis, but the path the patterns, the problems that were looking at right now have a deep passed on. When you add them together, you begin to get, I believe, therefore, a fraught moment in this moment in some ways, is uniquely fraud, because the bundle of problems includes. Unusual sort of president that just came and went what actually say. We're are in entirely a fraught moment. I'm sorry hunger. I think on the swan or feel must strongly about this. I think than Joanne does, because this is the only time in our history, with the possible exception of eighteen. Seventy nine, in which we ve had a significant number of our

own federal law makers and state law makers who no longer believe in democracy- and this is now happen. You know in the civil war in eighteen, sixty the confederates took their marbles and went home and the thirty three who didn't work spelled by Congress. So the people who were still legislating did believe in the democratic process and since and I in eighties? In Amerika, we ve had a number of moves from the the Republican Party, which I am an expert in the end, the republic, party, and I would argue that what is happening now is not really indicative of the history of that party, but the nineteen eighties. They really have worked to suppress the vote to stack the courts to Jerry Manner to alter the mechanics of our democracy in such a way that they have undermined in in ways, look look extraordinarily like what the Democrats did in the American South during reconstruction, the alarm keeps keep you keep sounding that that what is about to happen, if we down this road is that we will get the

the solid South, except it's going to be all of America, and that, for many reasons, is a bad idea, but the other side of that, although I am, I think, we're in a moment we ve never seen before, and that is uniquely dangerous it. also a moment of extraordinary opportunity. So for all that, I'm credibly negative about the direction we could be going. I am equally positive on the other side, that if Americans take this moment in hand, they re they do have within their grasp the opportunity to approach much more of a multicultural democracy than we have ever had before so assists funny kind of. On the one hand, we real trouble, and yet also in a moment of extraordinary opportunity and which one is gonna win, is what keeps me up at night, but that gets back to you know. part of what you and I and pre, but all of us, who routinely, which is trying to get people to understand that the contingency, the extreme contingency of this

moment I didn't really mad contingency another whores and have a good dinner. You know I have a. I do. A webcam on Friday mornings called history matters and the people who listen to that create bingo and one of the words on the bingo cars which they play bingo if every Friday has the contingency veers on every bingo guard, is brought up on Google to fraud has not made it yet. But now I am like push for fraud that you might have Mon. I think might want to put that on. I think so casket a question about the negative and then about the positive so as to when you're talking before about how every moment, history, every crisis has a slightly different or significantly different bundle of problems that pile up to create the crisis what's different here. You say that people have the perception that it happened. All of a sudden. Did it happen all of a sudden or have we been an aim in a very long term in a frog in the boiling water and of exercise? Will it

it didn't happen. All of a sudden, I mean Heather just sort of touched on this as well. I do think one thing, that's distinctive about the current moment in the very recent past is the degree to which people on the right our proudly flag, waving Lee proclaiming things that are obviously in line with suppressing votes and and and things that there has been a tradition of several decades but but now now, and that is partly a thing born of the last presidency. Now so proudly proclaimed policy, not proclaimed, saying the word suppression, but but sort of was words and other sort of impulsive suggestions about what their policies are doing and with four years of training in people getting confused about. What's truth, what's not truth. This becomes a prime moment for that kind, information misinformation to be spread in support of these efforts that are really.

Moving things in it at a very frightening suppressing direction. So Heather's you do agree what I take Joanne to be saying that a lot of this dramatic change in terms of how people talk about these things that should be laid at the feet of Donald Trump, the person I think it's a mistake to look at where we are and blame it solely on Donald Trump. I think he brought to the table policies and the ideologies of the current, a republican party without the veneer that they had put overwritten regeneration. So so and the reason I would like to emphasise that it's not just about tromp is because people seem to have this idea that somehow, if we can forget that presidency or if we can finally make him exit stage right, that we will be back to normal whatever than normal is, but we won't be. I mean a mayor There has been an in on the path that we are currently walking, since at least

The nineteen eighty sets two generations and there's a lot of unwinding to do, but even if you took us magically back to nineteen, seventy nine that still was not a fully realised multicultural democracy in in many many ways and there's a lot of work to be done in a way. and maybe a backdoor way. You have to give the four years of the Trump Administration credit for really ripping back the curtain and making people confront that that language- Taxation, for example, really was about race, which you know, scholars like Joanna. I've been saying for for a generation and people on them we're saying known: no, no, we're religious, fiscally conservative! Well now you can't make that argument any longer. So we need to recognise that he was certainly gasoline on the fire, but the fire already there joint do you agree with the way that the Heather described earlier earlier. It's a moment. Obviously, that's fraught bingo Clark,

ending, but off of their massive opportunity going forward had had you gotta each of you think about that opportunity. Could I think we need a war optimistic talk, no, I absolutely do feel Ino moments that are open to extreme change in those moments Things can go very badly or things can go wrong. The well, and there can be really productive, positive change. I'm gonna do the really feminist thing now and go back to the doing, but in many ways that period was a really similar period in which there was a new government was unclear for its going to work. It was unclear how it was going to work and in that big moment of indecision and experimentation. There was a widespread assumption and justly old, widespread assumption that things might go. Down down down really quickly that that the whole enterprise could sink or that something really different and positive, not a monarchy might result from it and I

that scene dynamic is very true now, and I think so what is unsettling to people is the awareness, even if they haven't given words to it, yet that we are at a moment when there could be great changes happening in a variety of different ways positively or negatively. That's all I that's frightening, but what that means is unsettled. opens the door for opportunity, Justice Heather. Said- and I I I think about that- allowed because, because I think it's profoundly true and but again, I think it's part of why it's important for people to talk about how history can show us that were in that kind of moment and where we can hope to get to You know if I were thinking about writing a history of this moment in a hundred years from now. What I

centred on is the unite. The right rally and Charles fell Virginia in the summer in August, two thousand seventeen, and not just for the fact that the american President came in support of fee. The right wing rioters who killed Heather higher, but also because that was centred around taking down of a confederate monument and one of the things that really interests me about the moment were an is one that people are talking about and not to my mind, hitting the point and Madison when so many things centred around the removal of confederate monuments. One of the things that always marks regime change is that taking down of monuments like us, from whatever those monument symbolized. If you're going to change the direction of a country, you take down the monuments and the confederate monument in so many ways in America stood not just for human enslavement and all the things that have come

from that moment, you know that the lack of generational wealth, racism, the the lack of political power among minority pipe, patients all the things that came down from our history of human enslavement, but would also came down from the confederate era was the american emphasis on oligarchy in the coming together. those two things in the last to five to seven years? I think is a really important moment in the longer sweep of american history and that you now, I think, has a lot of potential really am enabling Americans to embrace democracy again, a whole heartedly. But for me I'm saying it can't just be the white guys, my interview with Heather and Joanne continues. After this. Support for this episode comes from quick up. If it feel

like there, aren't enough hours in your work day. It's probably because their art we're losing valuable time to productivity, pitfalls like switching between apps to track down deliverables. Finding do dates in communicating with our teams, get me around his back and your work on track with quick up quick up a flexible productivity platform where you can prioritized tasks, collaborate on docks chap with your team and track goals all in one place, it's completely customizable and it's free forever, so tried click up today at click up dot, com, Slash Fox What if your home security system did more than just deep whenever you open the door to the backyard, what if it was powered by some more than a set of double a batteries. What if it actually cared well, then it would be simply safe safe- is an award winning home security system and shore It uses the latest technology. You need to keep your family safe, but what really

said simply safer part. Is its people highly trained security experts who are always there and ready to help if an alarm goes off, they real personal

There are over the phone to make sure you're, ok and if an emergency does happen, that person will send fire and police responders to your front door right away, plus simply safes experts are available to chat twenty four hours a day seven days a week, even if you just need help setting up your system. The bottom line is this simply save. Has your back with a team of real people who care it's. One of the many reasons you S. News recently called simply saved the best home security of twenty twenty want to find out have simply safe can help make you feel safe and secure at home visit. Simply save dot com, slash preach today to customize your system and get a free security camera that simply saved our com slashed preach today. How important at this moment is the president of the United States is Joe Biden,

the right person does he have the qualities to seize these opportunities that you're talking about. Well, I can. I can answer part of that question which is given that I was at that table with him in a number of other historian. I was gonna, ask you: what do you say? What did you say to Joe when you had his ear well what was interesting about that meeting. I guess a few things or interesting about that meeting is he was collecting information, so this wasn't an agenda driven meeting. He didn't expect us to say anything. We weren't given questions in advance he wanted to understand past moments of crisis in american history and what passed president's had done. He was info nation in in a really open way. He spent much of that meeting and it several hours long mostly take notes and asking occasional questions. He really wanted to understand patterns of the past

and how they might help the present, which, obviously to historians, ears You have to hear, but for that very reason, be cause. I believe he and his administration are very open to trying to figure out the right pathway. for right now and their awareness, I think, of of what their up against it does making be single one best person for this job. Right now I can't say that what I can say is his mentality and his outlook. I find really encouraging that he's. Thinking, Burg he's thinking big he's old minded he's taking in ideas and he is aware of the crisis that looming. Did anyone speak too much at this meeting and was John Medium,

no, no, no, no! I was a bit unfair. We love John Major him he's been on the show, but he's wonderful, ongoing I'll, take your shots. He had acute when he's not here. Now kid don't know. If it really was, we always has to come. And with an idea that we wanted to talk about each talked about them, and then it was just a general discussion but throw but it's neither. I wouldn't you think about this. It's not an uncommon practice, at least from the live read about american President's in my lifetime before to have audiences with historians, whether were at a crisis moment or not to understand their role to understand where the country is going in. What change can be affected by making smart kind of decisions? I dont think this happened during the Trump Administration did. Do you think that there have been moments? Overtime?

where these kinds of conversations have had a real impact on a presents thinking? Yes, I do, and that's what I would say about Biden in this moment is he's working very, very hard to restore to the presidency, the traditions of it and the old borders the old boundaries of it. So, for example, he's trying to put the focus on Congress would of course, the lawmaking body, while he did come into office and pass I'm sorry and sign a number of executive orders, he made it clear he would prefer to work through Congress in a bipartisan fashion, his so returned the idea of a president who stays on your face all the time you know his. You don't have to wonder what he's tweeting next here yeah just a guy. Sometimes every motivators. There's somebody on Twitter who says, and one again. I have no idea what Biden did this weekend and its expletive maize. So I think that that that's important. I also think that the

reason that you us are are noticing that he is talking to historians in the same way, for example, that eyes and Howard gender J F K did is because one of the things it was really, I think, import. about the Reagan, administration and damage, especially the George W Bush administration, was the attempt away from the idea that they were bound by the past- and you saw this really dramatically in two thousand for when a member of the job. W Bush administration actually gave a quotation to run. Susskind was writing at the time for the Wall Street Journal and send Enron was trying to chase him down about some fact or other, and he said you Know- and I paraphrase here you're making a mistake. You people, like you, historians like Susskind, belong to the reality based community and the some went on to say. But we don't live in the reality based community any longer. We create our own reality and you people are going to have to

yeah to the reality that we create and you'll do, earning you'll do a good job and then we will create a different reality because we are an empire now. So there, said since that they had cut loose from history altogether, and I think I mean trustingly enough by abiden, I think, is the fact that he's an older man has me him more able to reach back to that older history and to see it having value in the way that it actually played out in a way that perhaps a year The person who really was not aware of those older traditions and the older role of the president may not have been able to do. As I have heard, some people joke Joe Biden without the founding right I didn't go there please said. Other people have said because question about bi partisanship and I've noticed an interesting tactic and because I'm not historian, I dont know if this is in arriving with something that happened. for and the way I've always thought of it by partisanship. When politicians talk about it, particularly

moving a living a bill through Congress, you wanna have Democrats, anyone have Republicans. You know people from both parties vote on the bill and get something advance and pass into law only on the votes of one party. Now that's happening so much because you're so much polarization in Congress You know, as people have in suggesting the democratic side, there is a little bit more consensus on some of these issues, like guns like infrastructure, like health care, maybe even on a generous six commission and so that the idea of passing something with only democratic votes but with by partisan public support people identify both as Republicans and Democrats and independent being supportive of something. Well, that's what we mean by partisanship and- and so you complain, complain anymore, because it's really happening. Is you guys? The Democrats will say you Republicans are out of touch with him the people and the by partisan spirit of the american people, as that affected be, does not have any parallel in the past. What seems to me that what year I done, a fine there

hold over from, as I say, this increasing radicalization of the Republican Party and make no mistake, they have become extreme radicals and this. This current faction, that holds the Republican Party, and I feel, like that's, a really important distinction, because course. A party has this long history and its in this moment that really has never lived in before, but as they became as they radicalized they adopted in India that said that the that they wanted to cut the federal government. What was known as the liberal consensus that was put in place after World war, two first by after and then of course, by Truman and then by a Dwight and in his middle way, so a democratic wrote president lays down the roots of the liberal consensus and a republican politician. A republican president goes ahead and complete sat cycle, so we get this idea between both the Democrats and the Republican sit. The government had a role to play in regulating business and in providing a basics

we'll safety net and promoting infrastructure things that most Americans came to believe we're going to be around forever and the idiot logs Look over the Republican Party wanted to get rid of that altogether or, if you want to get rid of that, you can't compromise the idea Opera is built on the idea that you now you want this, and I want this and we can meet somewhere in the middle. But if you can't compromise, the world has to continue to move. or you and that's what has happened really since the nineteen eighty on the republic inside of the Isle, but then bite and hit them with something that is very surprising, and that was that when he got into office he began to go ahead and push through their executive orders or the american Rescue plan, which enormously popular with the american public, and he did so without any republican support. So if you're republican, you're lookin That and, as you know, there are people who ve gone there. Republicans who ve gone back to their states enter our touting the benefits the american rescue plan that they vote.

Against such gifts that puts them in a document about everything what puts more terrible place, because Americans have woken up to the fact that actually, like that liberal consensus, they like a government that does these things so if you're wrong, book and who is increasingly adhering to an ideology that says no taxes, no regulation, no social safety net, no public infrastructure, how on earth You square the circle and the idea of sort of thing I will give you you know lip service in public, but Wilmot tell our donors that we're gonna make sure they continue to cut regulations and taxes. Are you know? Is it a circle? can square, I would say no answer- is essential. and watch the Republicans right now to see how they're gonna climb out of this particular hole or, if they're going to climb out of that particular whole an end. What banging up against is small the democracy right. What what makes a democratic government difference is the different is the power of public opinion, and so it's

thing to to sort of Malaga platitudes about the people in whatever other kinds of democratic platitudes you want to throw out into the world? But if you are come held to praise something that you voted against your smacking up against the fact that really, ultimately, it's the public with matters. How do you deal with that? If they disagree with you? Well, I don't know you know the question is: do you lie or do you feed design commissioner, or I don't know we are there any number of ways in which you can deal with not really like the reality of what the public things you can try and change what the public thinks. But it strikes me that that, but, as you put it squaring the circle, its democracy that they're bringing up against, which is the fact that what the p thinking what the people want matters. So maybe one of the ways that you get away from that, as you make sure people can vote member There are two ways to do it. You change your ideology, which doesn't seem to be an option for frog at this point, the Republican Party this currently an office or use

They say will make sure that the people who disagree with us don't get to vote and that's where we come up against. Why we did the podcast was the idea of convincing people that they really do protect their demands see they're gonna, lose it right. Just give up the question about whether we are getting better remembering history, I especially some of our bad history, and there is an amendment- is we are speaking on a day that marks the hundredth anniversary of the magic,

of up to three hundred black people and tells her uncle homer. That's something I never learned about high school. There have been some interesting questions on social media about how people learn it in the past. I didn't know about it. I learned about it recently and people are talking about it. The present I'd states is talking about it. The attorney General United States is going to tell her to speak and to commemorate the event and to honour the victims of that violence. So my questions are, are we are we getting better or is it spotty and and Canada than from the past? That has been either erased or forgotten for, for various reasons or for understandable reasons cannot make a difference a hundred years later in a way that was unexpected back in the day. Well, any one part of the answer to that question can't can it make a difference? Will where part of what's happening at this moment and and history is part of this struggle, we're we're gonna play

Debating but the question of who we are when we talk about the american people in a sense when we're talking about injustices, what we're talking about prejudices and we're talking about cutting people out of the political process in one way or another, we're talking about the american we who we are and if we can look to these kinds of past moments, that also represent moments in which people are being cut out or silenced or pushed aside and reveal those moments. What they are yeah. I do think it can make a difference, because people communities who feel marginalized or armed marginalize. Today you can point to the past and show that happening in its very clear that it happening again, and that gives an added doing meaning an added weight to. What's going on the present and the speech, really back to what historians do you know we'd we do look for path.

and in society and to look further stories that are important and indeed moment the story of what happened to Greenwood and tall Sir really matters, because it's the story of the destruction of a prosperous black community, that an organ his during segregation, and it's the here one of the things that always So to me about the the Tulsa Mass her is not only that it's the first time that any american city is firebomb, its fire bombed by white citizens who drop in sin. areas from the sky on their black neighbours, but it all to me is so indicative of the crisis of the law. of generational, the ability for for minority populations to build up general generational wealth in America because that is not just about money. That's about access to education, and to criminal. Citizen and all the things that go with generational wealth, but so all the sun

that story matters in this particular moment, but his history is always changing. So right now, for example, were looking what happened and Tulsa that's incredibly important, but you know I look at what happened in Tulsa, an eye the step taken more stepped back and say what happened and Tulsa was not an aberration. It was many riots in that two year period after World WAR, two in which white popular since were not at all prepared to permit african american veterans to come back from World war, one where they had been fighting in France and had had become a user folk heroes and free. and I came back to America. There like hey, wait a minute here. Folks, what's goin on back here in Amerika, we want the equality. You'd say we just fought for in in world war. One universe is to make the world safer. Democracy haven't making America safer democracy, and that was some that the white population was completely unprepared to accept

and so you know right now. The story of tolls is important for all the reasons that I mentioned at first, but there's a bigger story that will also be important, american society changes to say: hey it wasn't just this one event is part of a much larger patterns, so can change the way. We behave absolute

lay the stories we tell about our past or the stories of who we are, if you think about it, about the only thing that distinguishes humans from any other animal population is our ability to make sense of the passage of time by telling stories about it. It helps define who we are. That's the process of decoding and understanding. History is is figuring out who we are where we came from and where we can go. Can we talk about a different kind of violence? Political violence, or maybe it's not so different, but you're doing- is to be a common practice in this country. Energy choices you ve written about this and talked about dueling and you're, and Alexander Hamilton expert. If doing or permitted today, when we just be seeing a lot of them and and war could I know I have a misapprehension, but what was actually the point of that kind of political violence back in the day right well and those two questions. Obviously here are

related. It's really counter intuitive, but the fact of the matter is doing was not about killing, which I realize is hard to believe, because two men go to feel with guns issued at each other and often have the consequent has. Unfortunately, right people died. How could that be? But the point of a dual was to show that you, who were willing to die for your reputation in your honour. It was about being willing to risk your life for your honor and reputation at for both people who are involved, and one of the things that I found early in my research was there are warm, is number of what I called affairs of honor, which meant all the formal negotiations that go on that could enable people to be settled before it went to the field of honour and became a shooting fight. So basically, all the time, people of all kinds

people of all kinds and politicians, or using affairs of honour and and threats of duels, to settle political fights in one way or another. So a lot of what you see when you talking about honour culture and an violence is threats of violence being used to settle political disputes So what would I expect to see now if it still existed? I would expect to see in a sense. Some of what you see in the past, which is people acting like they're, really ready, duellist see other really going to step forward, and I am ready to go to the field of honor, but Actually, really not they just want to make that claim and sound, very threatening in the home intimidating someone into doing whatever they want that person to do in the most recent book that I wrote you see it You see southern members of Congress, suggesting you do that more time, and you might end up with a dual challenge and use.

the northern members of Congress not standing up and not protesting against measures because they're afraid of that outcome, so doing a really useful political tool that goes way above and beyond actual bloodshed, which have also talked about this. A sort of a form of bullying. Haven't you absolute absolutely have primarily what it is. It is a way of bullying people into. Submission in one way or another. You frighten them you intimidate them so that they don't even stand up there there, fraid of what they might get until the sit down and allow things to pass any could be profoundly affected. Can we expect, in a moment of disagreement between the two of you on the Parkhurst, a potential modern. Do you have it? I know other rules. I was just gonna matter I'll make the matter. I was just going to ask what happens then, if, if you,

you go through all that with the dueling in eighteen, fifty user. Whenever you go with all three or state, whatever those steps are and then the Bali, ah the poorest, who is being bullied, stands up and says. Ok, you want to fight this out fight this out, just a bully back down we'll know, then you really can't tell anybody ever backer after being in the middle of negotiations and then said you know what changed my mind. I'm done no, I mean nothing at all in the field, its too late on the feed this way too late yeah. But but you know are all of these rules and regulations about passing, notes back and forth, and everything else and the reason why there there is- because

you can, on the one hand, use them to avoid having to fight a dual, but also what that means is that if you violate them, unfortunately, that they are pretty bluntly telling you what is honourable behaviour and what is not honourable behaviour. So it's very hard passed a certain point, it's very hard to back out without doing yourselves serious damage and, in my research. I should definitely seen people who, in one way or another, were perceived as backing down, really hurts their reputation. Their scene is cowards and they're, not people who are popular, in the realm of politics, because they are seen as having less power. You are gone like thirty minutes without mentioning the purchase, or can we could go back to

now and then, and the first episode, which is excellent and people can listen to. I thought that that the subject you chose to address is super fascinating and in its in part, and let you guys describe it to a better job than I will, but about sort of the the ratio of the line between domestic and foreign policy and one of the things that you in the then part of the black ass. It opposed to the now you talk about how, at the beginning of the republic, there could really be not any distinction between domestic and foreign policy and the thing that everyone was concerned about on the domestic side was foreign influence, because people forget how fragile the country was, how fragile the guy It was this new experiment and idea? How do you relate that towards going on today in the episode, but one of the interesting things at Heather, and I began talking about thinking about the subject of this episode is that I think, generally speaking,

Eric and see foreign affairs as some separate thing, needle that that is done by experts in his remote and american people be Merrick people to know a lot about it, and one of the things that we start out by discussing in the pod cast is Biden saying outright was no longer a bloodline between foreign and domestic policy, when I sort of through internet conversation at a very early point as well that pretty much like seventy ninety IE or seventy. Ninety eight. At that early point, people did not see really much of any distinction between foreign and domestic affairs, the United States, with some new. And it was so weak, the assumption was foreign influence, could do any number of things could afar nation could sweep in and really basically swallow up states or the nation could provide public opinion in one way or another. The first actual prison,

annual election. That was a contest because it's the first time Washington didn't run seventeen. Ninety six is the first election which people afraid about foreign influence swinging the election. In that case the French. So it's it's for a very clear and and real reason that George Washington famous farewell address. He highlights two things that he thinks are the most dangerous for nation? One of them has to do with entangling. Alliances are or getting too close to any one foreign country in allowing their influence to come in the other has to do with extreme partisanship and that those two things coming together can really tear a nation apart, and it was interesting because when we started looking at Biden and the way he was talking but foreign affairs to me, it jumped out that that's exactly the same way. The Teddy Roosevelt had talked about it and that had not been the case. Rule the in my lifetime, although you could make some allowance, is therefore President Jimmy Carter, but then that-

beg the question of. Why was the present different than the way it had been right up until world war? Two and yet sticking around a little bed, and we remember the National Security ACT of nineteen. Forty seven, which dramatically reorganizes are national, gives our National Security Council interim radically reorganise is the way we do foreign policy and enhance it over. If you will to true experts, but that it is Joe and I were talking it. It became pretty clear that well, Americans think that somehow foreign affairs are different off their being managed by experts. What in fact happen was. It gave an inordinate amount of power to the executive branch, especially to the president, who then used affairs to hammer on his opponent to say: oh you're, not strong enough on foreign affairs, a foreign affairs continued to be ignored so important in the way that we understood our domestic sphere, and yet at this time it was there

It was important not because people were honestly engaging with whether we should be involved, for example, in Iraq or Afghanistan, but rather It became enormously important as a domestic political weapon that permeated all kinds of culture, which is why we are talking about music and blue jeans and what things look like Sixtys and Seventys, because we really focused on the Vietnam WAR? So it is in order. Absorbing away to understand that you do really have to see foreign affair as always, is part of domestic affairs. All though whether they are being used really to advance the good of the american nation of american democracy or whether they are being used simply as a cudgel to go ahead and try and hammer your domestic opponents is always some

to keep in mind, doesn't doesn't the ability, diffuse, domestic and foreign policy. Foreign affairs depend a little bit on the public, being smart and educated and informed and knowledgeable about foreign affairs, and isn't there a limitation on that. Given what I understand from pulling is the degree of Americans attention to things have happened. So the country in fairness, that's one of the things that happens after world war. Two was because America is so fully on the world stage, its very, very difficult to stay abreast of all the different things that are happening in all the different places that they are and that flattening of foreign affairs. There is then makes it easier. I think for the executive branch and the president to use foreign affairs as away simply too hammer his opponent. Are you surprised that it was so difficult to get the unity, a sixty vote by partisan agreement on

January sixth mission work, even in other areas, is that how it would have played out even have some folks are implicated. Some folks are witnesses who were among the members voting and that it would be a political football, especially if it continued into the election year the midterm election year, I'm not. I can't say that I was surprised given the moment that were in that said, the fact that it was voted against, is so indicative of the seriousness of the moment that we're in that what happened on January sixth happened on January six, and there isn't even

There are people who don't even want to discuss the possibility of going further into an investigation. Did I expect this to happen? Did I expect people to step up and say? Yes, this must be investigated. No, and I dont think most people would expect that to be the outcome. But if you think about what happened on that day, and you think about the seriousness of it and you think about the degree to which people are willing to talk about it to get into any of the details. That's really disturbing is is not strong enough word to describe what that says about the moment that were in and the degree to which people will bow to really cling to power. I would absolutely echo about because I think it in it indicates that power is tramping democracy and that the Republican Party is currently willing simply too Pro democracy overboard. If it means they can continue to stay in power, but I would only add one thing to what you said and that's it she kept saying folks and it's not folks, it's the republican leadership.

And that really matters that this is a has this sort of thing happened before Finally, when there is a sense that something needs to be examined because it threatens the survival of american democracy, even if but he doesn't want to look into it the same way. They didn't want to look into the nine eleven that they didn't want to look into. The events of nine eleven, for example, both parties eventually suck it up and do it and that's been the case really since the civil war. So the fact that there is currently not a by partisan move in the Senate to go ahead and do that and to have the Senate minority leader ask as a personal favor, for that non to go forward? That's it's a really wrong, really big deal, and you know we talked earlier about why this is fraught moment in democracy and why, especially this week, people are suddenly saying: oh, we ve got a real problem on our hands. Is in part because of the fact

the Senate leadership of the Republican Party, which theoretically is supposed to be the senior body. That's looking out for the health of the american government has now. You know we don't really care that there was an attack on the very basis of our democracy on January six because were concerned, that is going to mean that some of our own are implicated, which is going to hurt. Our ability to hold on to eat to equal pay within the Senate? Because if you remove were the February. Third, two thousand seventeen power sharing agreement was predicated on the idea that there was a fifty fifty split in the Senate either were I'm willing to take the chance of giving up power in the Senate or what I'm willing to take the risk that voters can hear what happened in made before the twenty right before the twenty twenty two election, and that's really, I popping I popping and once again smacking up against the bounds of democracy and in this case trampling it have a car,

Britain joined Freeman thanks so much it's really. It's really great. What what an exciting thing to be working together, the team loves working with you. They ve been a great shout putting the package together. For to every episode, maybe something by Joanne. Congratulations! Congratulations and good luck in we'll talk against thanks thanks a labyrinth My conversation with Heather and Joanne continues for members of the cap. Insider community to try The membership free for two weeks had to cap. It all come slash. History members get access to exclusive content. Including a special segment of now and then called backstage and for a limited time, fifty percent of the annual membership price with the code history. Again, that's coffee com, slash history,

and a discount code is history? Will that's it for this episode of state to thanks again to my guests, professors, Heather, carts, Richardson and Joanne Freeman, thanks for being on the show, If you like, what we do rate and review the show, an apple pie outcasts or wherever you listen, every person review, helps new listeners find the shell send me. Your call is about news politics and justice tweet them to me. A treat Ferrara with the hashtag ass, breathe We can call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight at six, six thousand nine hundred and twenty four preet or you can send an email to stay tuned at cafe. stay tuned is presented by CAFE studios and the Vocs media podcast network. Your host is preparing the executive producer is tomorrow, supper

Senior producer is Adam Waller. The technical director is David TAT ashore. The cafe team is Matthew. Billy David Calendar, SAM overstating Noah S alight, not leaner, J Kaplan, Jennifer Corn, Chris Buoyant and Sean Wash. Our music is by Andrew Dost. I'm Pre Ferrara statement.