From CAFE? Welcome to stay too? I am preparing it got to the point where I was a heroine attic gotta as bad as you could get. I honestly thought that I was, I was not put together correctly and I lost hope for myself. I thought something was intrinsically wrong with me. I sort of whose living my life Unfortunately, unbroken I'm going to live my life and come what may but somewhere along the way that changed and if it can change for me, can change for for anyone That's Cameron Douglas he's the we have long way home an intimate memoir that recounts Cameron's descent into drug addiction and almost eight years in the custody of the bureau prisons

brutally honest account explores the relationship with his famous family, how we ended up addicted to heroism selling crystal Meth, her prison timeframe The changes, life and the difficulties of author confinement and re entry into society cameras, and I also have a connection but not the kind of connection those people with brag about Cameron Douglas. Investigated, charged and prosecuted by my former office. Attorney's office for the southern district of New York, that He was coming up, stay tuned. I agree with an NGO in his question: Severin bothering me maybe have simple answers. If somebody in the State Department, yes a subpoena an estate apartment, says they cannot testified that they receive this subpoena. Why care

they make the decision to testify on their own and still not risk firing. I understand I could maybe reside in, but why can't they here they replied with Subpoena, which is legal value And things requested, and it turns out by State Department official, cannot bear Sabena and we ve seen. Creative officials come in and testify before Congress, most notably yesterday October, twenty second, when the chief diplomat in Ukraine, United States Bill Taylor? We ve been talking about. Hearing. A lot about came in and testify. For a lot of ours. That money along with some other people's testimony, has come after the White council's office sent a letter to the Congress. Basically saying your impeachment inquiry is invalid: it's not found on proper procedure, and so we're not gonna cooperate. In various officials in the State Department and former officials from the State Department, whereas to come testify some of them decline based

What the White House said before the issue subpoenas anything individual diplomats, other officials in the government have made us for themselves that they are not going to be held in contempt of court in an actual, evade the compulsion of a subpoena have come forward, and if it s a really important and that's why I think some people have been using the phrase the dam has broken because Lhasa folks are coming forward. Some people still are opposed coming forward. It is, of course, even easier for someone who has left the government to decide to come and testify, but where people, both in and out, come and do their duty. Here's a question from Howard and planet, says that we received by email, that's a little bit putting the cart before the horse, but how it asks if one house passes articles of impeachment and the Senate carry,

its constitutional duty to hold a trial, will there be Senate gallery tickets available to the public? If so, how can I get one? If I get two tickets, will you be my guest at so let's see what happens with impeachment first, having allowed people predict in good faith that there will be articles of impeachment voted on and vote, favourably by the majority of the House and Mitch Mcconnell sent majority leader has said he will in fact hold a trial is talked about. What that trial will look like that, the Senate will sit every day six days a week, still unclear what the procedure will be. There's a couple of presence for, but not a lot and am I would expect, although I was not in the Senate when this happened, we bill Clinton, but I would expect that, as is often the case where the senators business their seats open to the public up top, so they can gaze over into the Senate Chamber and watch the proceedings. I would guess that those tickets will be hot commodity hint probably is helpful to know your homesteads editor to get a ticket like that or maybe stand a mine. If you get one, if you score one Howard and there with you

so folks. Obviously the big news is the testimony of the chief diplomat in Ukraine from United States Bill Taylor, who test but at length yesterday, that news broke since an and eyes fell out of time on these issues on the insider pot cast. So a bunch of questions relating to tailors testimony which was extensive, we don't have all the details of that testimony. We do have what looks like someone photograph page by page with a cell phone is opening statement which had been circulated in its fifty pages, go spaced. Palliser Catherine De Angelo asks heck of a lot of corroborating evident in the Ukraine scandal. Reports on tailors testimony at pre per hour thoughts on the quality and quantity of evidence accumulating here, compare contrast to prosecution, jubilant, hashtag, ass, pre, somewhat short question, as some kind of question comes in a tweet from listener assiduous rabbit the best kind of rabbit, probably hashtag. Ass pre is Taylor statement and testimony enough to impeach

from. I know it's hard for people with all the work they have going on in real life have to live to read document after document this fifteen page opening statement from Bill Taylor is pretty extraordinary. It sets forth his background as all these witnesses have come forward in anticipation. I think of character assassination sets forth their non partisan and by partisan credentials along the shore of the country and built Hitler's case. It's been fifty, years, beginning as a cadet at West Point and then lays out in clear detail the chronology of events leading up to and following the July twenty four phone call between present from and presents Lansky, whose read out we have already seen and which conversation prompted the whistle plant whose identity we dont yet know. So I believe that, even before we had built Heller's testimony- and we just had certain text messages

and we didn't have what we do now have overwhelming proof of an inappropriate quid pro quo that there was enough to impeach Donald Trump based on the Red out of the phone call and other corroborating evidence that the pressing I'd states and have said is over and over again, and I think it important to be cut about this, that the President of the United States asked a foreign leader to give him help to invest, get an important political rival domestically. That itself is an abuse of power and that itself is a reasonable unimpeachable offence. Without saying the fact that's the one time acting attorney General one on foot news. I think yesterday and weirdly, that abuse of power is not a crime when everyone understands and if you'd never service, he attorney general. That exactly what the framers had in mind when they contemplated impeachment and explicitly put it in the constitution that it was an abuse of power that they were concerned about

I think even before bill tailors testimony enough to impeach the president and now going back to the question from assiduous rabbit. After the testimony of built Are you have more than enough for think succeeding in stronger articles impeachment? He makes it. Clear the now, he was a request for help in a domestic matter, which was the investigation, but that aid to country. In a meeting with the White House, he makes it exceedingly clear aid to the Ukraine and essential aid, if not given in a timely fashion. According to bill, Taylor would cause you cry. And to die, because any that military funding to stave off attacks from Russia that that aid and a White House meeting were conditioned on now some of investigation into charisma and into the binds so they'll be presumably an opportunity in public for supporters of the President to cross examined and to test these statements

Bill Taylor. But if you see how detail they are, how meticulous they are, and if you believe the report's all of these recollections are backed up by contemporaneous notes that he took at the time and by other people's testimony. I think it can be very, very hard to put a dent in the conclusions it he draws and the picture that he paints. I think at some point it will be useful to see, all the details of what his testimony was about, but while we're talking about this issue of complaints about the process, bear in mind that behind closed doors, presumably republicans on the various committees have had an equal opportunity to question bill. Taylor to question is motives to question is recollection to question his conclusions about things. At the end of the day, the opening statement is very strong, but I think when you see all the testimony, including how He answers questions and how he deals with people are trying to undercut his testimony. That will be even more interesting than the other thing about bill. Tailors. Testimony right away that may or may not related impeachment is not just about this inappropriate quid pro quo between present trump and presence.

Plenty of Ukraine. He also talks about something is very disturbing and he uses it were disturbing more than once, and he also says a John Bolton, the former national security adviser, used the word disturbing and seems to have done so more than once in its this, tire process of having, on the one hand, legitimate state department, officials appointed high this administration who have foreign policy. Experience and are acting within the appropriate chain of command to try to further American national Security interests within the alliance with Ukraine as a long standing, important strategic partner and then separate from that. You have what some people call shadow foreign policy and he calls and irregular diplomatic process that's run by people, including Rudy Giuliani. That's at odds with what the state of american foreign policy is in strategic partnerships should be all about and that is something if probed more may form the basis for a more general article of impeachment at a minimum. It should cause allow

people alarm, then we have a person like John Bolton is pretty aggressive and how he thinks the policy should be conducted and how much leeway to President I states has to do what he wants. The fact that he referred to this craziness as a drug deal with Giuliani and wanted no part of it and abruptly ended a meeting according to Bill Taylor, when this kind of quid pro quo is discussed, tells you a lot. The tiller also describes. John Bolton has being really opposed to a call between present trump and presents Lansky because he predicted it would be. A disaster turns out that was correct. Here's a related quest in a tweet from France's Nancy who writes the reaction Republicans to tailors testimony is an example of why I asked you if you are disappointed in your country July. Fourth, each hour brings this Leave as one person after another demonstrates a lack of ethics or support for the rule of law. Hashtag ass, pretty well Francis Nancy, I think

important point that you raise the reaction to tell us testimony. Generally speaking, we're excuses were made and clear language is debated in a way. That seems quite frivolous. That's one thing, the other thing we have come to expect he mentioned is: if any one dares to say something that is not in the interests of the present of United States. The president himself, through his weapon eyes, twitter, account and other ally of his will engage in the worst sort of unseemly character assassination we ve seen, and it doesn't matter how long your service into the country, doesn't matter how republican you

then or how non partisan you have been. If you dare to say something against the president, they will attack you and they will make up things about you. Look what happened to Bob Mahler, whatever you think about his investigation. He was a man of good faith in a sincere public servant who served his country in battle and served his country at the FBI and served his country s special counsel and had nothing to gain from it. Nothing approve and he did his duty and look how they treated him. And now you see Bill Taylor and I think one of the most remarkable parts of his testimony, as we see with other witnesses, is his recitation of his service to America, because he knows that that's gonna be potent thing for people to look at when he has to defend himself from attacks, some of which have already been formulated. I believe the White House issued a statement where they referred at him, apparently and others like him as radical, unelected bureaucrats, and I agree with those people who have set on Twitter and on social media. Every single Republican who has supported it.

President should be asked after seeing the opening statement from Bill Taylor and those who have seen the testimony in the committee. Do you believe the bill? Taylor is a radical, unelected bureaucrats. S tail writes in his own opening statement. I have dedicated my life to serving you US interests at home and abroad and both military and civilian roles. My background and experience are non partisan, honor to serve under every administration, republican and democratic, since one thousand nine hundred and eighty five he says four hundred and fifty I have served the country starting Cadet at West Point then, is an infantry Sir, for six years, including with the one hundred first airborne division in Vietnam, then at the Department of Energy Then, as a member of a Senate staff, then it NATO, then, with the state but here and abroad in Afghanistan, Iraq, Jerusalem in Ukraine. And more recently, as executive vice president of the non Partisan, United States Institute of Peace, and that's not to say that, just because you have long, uninterrupted public service for the country that everything you say needs to be taken as gospel and that you not fallible

but it does say I think you know, without any blemish on your record up to this point and by the way after you ve done to retirement. Having approached the age of seventy or more in your hand, picked by secretary pump, hail to come back and be pressed into service as the lead diplomat in Ukraine, that you're owed a little bit of respect when you come forward and do something I think it's very brave, even if it pisses off the president and pisses off his allies, so yeah I'm really disturbed about how people have been reacting to long standing, public servants who decide to come forward and say something. I think it's long overdue for people like that forward and say something. My guess this week is Cameron Douglas he's a time author, whose memoir long way home traces. His lifelong drug addiction and drug dealing. You may know camera Father ass, going out in producer, Michael Douglas of the American President Wall Street, and so many more till all was grandfather, Crook Douglas, who boasts, and equally impressive, Filmography

Barton, splatter Spartacus I've bought it. I'm sorry. Two thousand nine Cameron was arrested in New York City hotel after a three year investigation into his drugged distribution business. He would go on spend almost eight years in the federal prison system as to why the I used to leave prosecuted Cameron's very public case in what think is a very special interview. Cameron joins me to talk about his experience in the criminal justice system in his rocky to recovery and redemption. That's coming up stay tuned two Forbes gems, nail salons, hotels, momentum stores and more are to go on and epic hiring spree in the coming months Businesses are expanding to meet the pent up demand for all of these services. The thing is high. Bring, has never been more complicated. We do

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obviously, that connects us which we can talk about, is that you and I had the same publisher off, and we have the same better, be together. And it was a little weird when he was at it my book. He kept talking about another book that he was editing, which was yours, which he raised. That NATO is proud of the book to how tough was Peter is an editor of appeal. Great, but I also have to say he writes about your book parts as, whilst you read from perfectly appreciated kind of different bucks, look from different ends of the spectrum. There was one other time a year and a half ago I did here, is on to the criminal justice system. We did for four parts interviewed a prominent former prosecutor, a prominent former defence lawyer who happens to be one of your defence. Lawyers been Brackman good old man and and someone who my office prosecuted, the second time we ve had this kind of interview. It's always it's a little odd, but I think an apple. Conversation, hackers, I've. I've learned some things since the time that

left office. You learn some things during. Experience you had. Would you detail it in great my to detail in your in your book, so the ugly I want to make if that is when we get into the thing that brought you to prison. You arrested two weeks before I started as the US attorney who I was not the use attorney You were arrested, ah come and given the nature of the case, it was not something I personally supervised, but what will talk about feelings about and how you went to the process and what you think about how strong statements about some things in the book which we know, I think you making good faith so we'll talk about that. But I guess my first question is why you write the book. You know print. I can't go back in time and in change which happened the choices and decisions. I've made are what they are, but what I can do try to take all that in turn it into something useful for people

families that are struggling with addiction that feeling They ve lost hope and now I wish I was really the effort in as a by product it was. Very helpful. For me too. Back over my life. Process of writing this book and a better understand summit? these choices that I made so that I can be more helpful in that way, that was really Do you know something that was, as is being very important to me and then, thirdly, It's a good way to sum up, All those years of my life and then put it behind me, and and move forward with a heart. It was very difficult who is the hardest part of around this book

Oh, you know going back and unjust, uncovering alot of old pain that caused others that I dealt with. And just you know, reopening old wounds but flip side of that? By doing that, I found to be very healing in the long run, certainly with my family, your very eyes, your family, your mom, your dad, their relationship did you have, put all that out in a first draft or did it take a while Frida pudding the honest thing that you have in their work You know. I tried to not make us a book about my family, I feel it my family's included where, their lives affect mine, really, the purpose not to write a book about my family was to write a book about you know my journey and what I've taken from it and hope

by laying it out in the way that I have honestly, I feel like that's the best way to connect with people that are that are also going through some difficult times, speaking a family to begin the book, HU, the painful story about your uncle right. Whitey begin the book that way and in and what happened it seemed like a young a moment in my life that was in a very retiring. Your father, Michael Douglas, get a phone call. Yes in what is he told Father gets a phone call from the Nypd and he's told that tat if my uncle he's dead. Apparently An accidental overdose ends, the effect that it had on my father at that moment?

never seen him and in a state like that, and it was, as you can imagine, extremely traumatized for for the whole thing Really that's the kind of news that shakes everyone. You know to their core. It wouldn't didn't have on you did you worry, as you say, in the book. I think you know an end up like that. In my like my uncle you know that was always the sort of fun when my Father mother, it more at a young age, not so much after Erics passing, but at leading up to it- His behaviour was with you and you know my uncle Eric was going with a lot of stuff. You know internally and as a result, it created it tempest around him, and so as a younger man, my friend. Would use him ass, an example of like why needed you get my act together into China? Learn from his

steaks in sleaze as eyes. You know from my book I was very stubborn and and Fortunately I wasn't it What I learned from my uncle's me, eggs and I had to find for myself, but I dont think get that everyone has to do that. So, let's talk about your family before we get to the things you experienced people be asking the question: what is it like to be the son of Michael Douglas and the grandson of Kirk Douglas, we ve got Spartacus in the american President was oppressed, for you to succeed in the same way that they had was pressure for you to act as you act, and I think it right to act again. Who is the level of expertise on. You have that effect you father and my grandfather and my mother really did not create environment where I felt like I was expected to fill their shoes, they always encouraged me to find

Would it wise that inspired me two to follow that. Obviously I have great respect For my father and my grandfather, and my mother, but since my grandfather and father are the ones that are famous Agus, has what we're talking I have great respect for them in their accomplishments in it. He's been nigh great role models to me and continue to be at some point. You began using drugs was, I believe when I was around thirteen Ngos in seventh greater and how bad Rebecca I got terrible if God, Sir it got, to the point where I was a yeah heroin addicts, and he got to the point where you know I did nearly eight years in the custody of the Bureau of prisons. So

it, got about as bad as it could get. You know you got to a point where, where I honestly thought that I was I was not put together correctly and I lost hope for myself. I thought something was intrinsically wrong with me, and so that in mind. I sort of living. My life like fortunately, unbroken and I'm gonna, live my life in come. What may but somewhere along the way that changed and can change for me. It can change for for everyone when you think back having been very reflective, as was required by the process of writing this book, which very intimate, as we have said, is there something you think could have been different when you were young either that your family had done or path, you might have chosen that might have helped you avoid the difficult path. You went down really what would have been

incredibly helpful for me the young man if I would have taken it and each of us therapy and in really given that a shot in the eye, I had that so many opportunities to deal with fair pissed in psychiatry, sinned, rehab. Even when I was younger and in I've been more open to that. I think it could. Been really helpful. So that's that's something I tell anyone that I know that I care about that is, struggling with addiction Shelly or or really anything, because I think that extremely helpful to find somebody that you trust and that you respect to degree and an open. And led some of this stuff out and try to find. You don't resolutions rather than

holding on to everything stuffing it down and pretending like it doesn't exist. So how many different drugs did you become addicted, Well, I was a I was there ok, attic first,. And then nay and then a heroine addict. But then you began at some point. You made the jump dashing, dealing and drugs right. When did you make that jump? And why Well, yeah, I got A in my life where I was just. I was I had a role on a movie that was shooting in Ireland, and I wired this rule, just after getting a dick the two heroin as you know, when you get a addicted to how into physical addiction and I ended up, get extremely sick on the job.

After running out of heroin and was fired from the job and at Bay Quickly, given in an ultimatum by my family, which was too directly into an impatient rehab and I was living the woman at the time and too basically part way this woman, or else they were not going to. There. They were not going to support me any longer, which is totally. Sustainable. So then you, Have the same financial situation is used RO waiting- I had I was almost living on the street alleys suggests one motel payment away from from living on the street so, what are you saying, he began to sell drugs for the money? Yes, even though you came from a wealthy family, yes, but you know what's which interesting pre Zahm when I was indicted were what caused the indictment was asleep,

operation that the, the dossier, arranged and I had an added anything to do with the drug dealing for over a year. At that point, in fact, I had moved from California. To New York and while I I certainly probably would have if it wasn t a d operation that caught me it problem we would have been somebody else and, and maybe drugs, would have hit the street so kudos, two guys for that. But then, after that you know, where was the I'm just using a conversation about justice- you know. So I my way in four arrive on a five year contents doing I close to eight years with a b o p first, the two of those years in solitary confinement, my recollection is and actually, as I mentioned before, we started taping.

Do some research over the last few days because it was not supervising your case personally talked a summit. Prosecutors, talk to your defence lawyer, read some of the papers, largely you were arrested for, distribute crystal meth how'd, you make me the crystal meth. When you had been in an act of heroin and and cocaine, it was supply and demand situation, business, business but but you yourself were not addicted to meth. Now that was your business separate from your diction, but for the purpose of making money for the purpose, facilitating my addiction and you're doing it in California for a bit and then you moved to New York in your Cabin in New York. I was doing that in California only and then move to New York after trying to get away from from that sort of restart, and that's when the arrest, happily and the dealing just so we understand we get into a discussion about the fairness of the citizen and would have

in prison or not about small bags regarding the substantial quantities of Crystal Meth absolute hum. Won't what would you say? The quantity was I was arrested for a pound of crystal meth and account for how much I think at the time and unaware of its own, where I believe that the time and in New York it was around without when he seven thousand dollars so between twenty seven thirty thousand hours and overtook you arrested maybe initially on that pound, but they were during the course of your activities. Drug deal Many many pounds hundreds of thousands of dollars- yes, ok, so you understand in part. You got arrested because was an investigation going on over crystal Meth ring and, as I understand it, and we'll talk about your experience with issue. She flipping in a moment but somebody gets locked up in their jammed up because their locked up and they point the finger at other bold and describe at the beginning of parties

book which is mostly about your experiences of criminal law horsemen and prison gauges? essentially betrayal by someone took a room in the same hotel that you were in which resulted in the arrest of someone flipped on you Brian. How do you feel about that person when you realize that you have been, I use your words betrayed in that way. Well, I upset but at the same time you know when I was arrested. Time that the federal government hands out Is it useful? astronomical, but it feels astronomical when you're sitting in that position, when it you, of course it doesn't, look and enters the german argument at its higher social reality. We are known, but that's fine, so you know with life in prison, is a possibility universally. So I understand especially morceau, as as I am, Did the system more with some of these people are going through and you feel betrayed by

But it is it's the way the system works. And I'm not so much? I am not saying that there that my punished. Was, was unfair. I'm just talking about You know in regards to statute and how everything works and stuff like that. So I am by no means saying that I'm just turn open a conversation with you about the ass this in these sentences. Are they approach It I mean: do they do they serve a purpose? In other words, I myself was now: involved in organised crime. I don't have any next to cartels, no violence. I myself was a gigantic planes yeah, there's millions of people like me. In that regard that through the system, and I think we would happens, and I've seen first hand is that you know you you put a civilian in prison and you put

and therefore a significant amount of time. Within coming out as a bona fide criminal in the way that, then our prison industrial, complex worse. The way that we treat inmates in this country is not in an effort to reform them, even if that's You know what the taxpayers are told. You know as security level goes up, especially the more treaty, like an animal, the more you try. Like an animal, the more you act like one and then What happens then? these men and women. They come home and their living next to the civilians and its. It seems like something's not working properly there. What do you think we have an affair sense for you, based on your conduct now As I just said, I'm not debating the fairness of my sentence because we can debate the fairness of yours can sentence because your sends once and then there was a discretion, and then you got, I think, there's a hammer. The second time by

tickler judge, and I want to talk about that cause. I I have a look at these records and I think even my own folks were surprised at the sentence. You got the second type, but before we to that right. I want. I want something I find really interesting in your thought process about flipping, so I have overseen species of blot on lots of people and personally prosecutor lots and lots of people in a habit chapter in my own book, the Peter edited on the phenomenon of cooperating flipping, valuable columns, niches, with the psychology is of people who decide to flip and not flip in free you I found this to be. One must have some parts of the book because you ve throughout the discussion, keep going back, to this idea of not ever being comfortable, cooperating and not ever being comfortable flipping, even though people telling your lawyers are telling you look Cameron your facing a ten year. Mandatory minimum sense would you were based on the quantity on the crystal Meth and the one way in the federal system, there is another way, but the one way principally to get something less than ten,

solid years is to cooperate and testify for the government and in your book when you're, considering these things. If I can read this back to you It is very compelling and not everyone thinks this way. Some people met some of these people, I'm sure they fell upon a dime against family against their best friends. Do in some people never do and you cut. We were kind of him. Queen Ann, you write. The dossier is hitting me with the pitch. They had everyone with to wear them any determination not to cooperate. Someone were wire on you. Why should they go free? While you go to prison, so why don't I just name names and enthusiastically cooperate and then you list out. You even enumerate reasons why you're not comfort, when you say one there's a code among criminals and I believe in it a situation. I got myself into understanding the risks and I don't think it's fair to drive the people into it too. I know one information about some people are genuinely care about orderly. With the weight of knowing I did that to them. Three, if I could

great with the government of forfeit alot of rights, including the right to appeal for for reasons. I know that this of cooperating, will make for a much more difficult prison experience, and you talk about that at great length to talk about how You turned over your head, this idea of cooperating or not. Well, you know mean, as I, as I said, just before, I got hammered with the second sentence that you did we started to talk about. I have always felt that way when you are in the throes of heroin withdraw there's now much. You won't do it said it's it's a feeling that you know be described, but I'm sure you know you you ve heard what about it in anybody. Listening to this podcast, I'm sure has, interest in it and probably knows a little bit about it and so I was looking for any excuse. I trying to find a way to tune one

deal with that sickness and too I felt like. Maybe I somehow manipulate my way out of this, with these, for that are very good at their job. You know which way you know just now was the way that a civilian looks. Edge civilian drug addict. Sad, a situation of this magnitude in ages, in other words, just are not so things clearly to return on the one hand operate and I'll get out of prison sooner. In fact, maybe should spend a minute describing arrest in what the agents did where they brought you, and I conversation with your father, Michael let's be when deciding what to do so the agents arrested me Did they sat down once they too Me too. He d headquarters, which happened to be five

away from where I was staying, they said the first pitch was: you know, you're, looking at possibly life in prison and then it was. You know family do this. Family. If you do this we'll make sure this never comes out in the press, which is all not impossible, the then I asked if I could make a phone call to my father because he's dead one person that I look to you know for the advice person. I trust in DA. I have that I trust you. He told you to flip and what happened is I was speaking to him and I was never forget a day, you know he, he we have spoken and alone. He answered the phone. He was so happy here my voice and to tell him

What was going on and I couldn't quite get it out and one of the agents took the phone and he locked away with it. He came back die. Iep handed me the phone, and I and my father said that he thought I should do. You know what they ask me to do now. I didn't that advice had I had taken advice more to heart. Maybe things would have been easier on me in the long run. But what I tried to do at that point was you know feed these people a bunch of lies and have to do you. You lie to the agents you lighted the prosecutors day, while sort of pretending that you are fully cooperating right. Could you wanted to have it both ways? Yes, in you got neither benefit, I got neither benefit and it getting neither benefit and

getting the basically the ten years that I would have gotten. Also initially you go before the court George Berman, who I know well, and I and I think, is a good judge, and I don't think my experience especially tough sentencing, judge most of the time. That sounds about like my luck. Well, no, but you had you had the shot and you got up. Under the tenure mandatory minimum and look. There are lots of arguments that are legitimate. The mantra, your prohibition haven't, but for you you got out from under that, because you said you can going to in particular. There were they want. Do suppliers were go up the food chain, which is what law enforcement does right and they were a couple of brothers cool unclear where they were if they were going to be found, and those were the people that the DEA and as I understand it, my old office was interested in and they were going to use your testimony. If those folks ever showed up to help him dig those guys right, we're bigger folks than you and everyone went along with that and you actually got. I think the benefit of being

but to be sentenced even before any testimony, because usually The case in most cases than I ever saw that if a guy like get arrested. They want a wait and see how much you assistant wincey, how your testimony goes and all these cooperation finishes, and then you good sense. Meanwhile you're in prison and whole time. For a variety of reasons. It seems like you got the better of an early sentence even before testifying in seeing how worthwhile in your truthfulness was any got five which I think in the judges mind was a gift to you. Did you think of it as such, or no. Well it's hard to think of five years in prison as a gift? And at this point- Still was very early on my understanding of the system and how it works, in the kind of time that that day, dole out was still

you know a lot of time. Well, I mean that's nothing, there's people that would do anything for five years. You know that our inner systems, the as I was in fully understanding everything at the way that I would come to you, a few years down the line, you don't you think had a role. I read a lot of the letters submitted on your behalf. For sending an extraordinary, and I think you're writing a book that some people were very honest, which was, I think, helpful, not realizing their letters would become public put their own can be read by the judge, but it paints a picture. I was. By how many times people wrote and obviously these people are now you and they're trying to help you, A phrase came up over and over again, and I wondered he felt when you read them, they kept saying. Person with a good heart? Would you feel when you read so many people say that about you That's that's one thing about myself that guy I do. I have a big heart I, when I, when I care about somebody and I love somebody either

nothing that I that I won't do for them, so that was you know that that is something that I am not ashamed to two, you two owner, even say that I recognise in mice We can be proud of that. He ass a thing to be proud right. Boy, united people be minus penny. I do have a big heart oftentimes to fall by yeah I'll, take it so then you get sentenced to five years. But then something's happened. You you violate in various ways, we'll have to go through it all among other things, words it it's interesting me. So we can explain it ties in two The whole solitary issue, which which I know is, is something that you feel strongly about and TAT show What happened is, I guess, the dirty urine and They found one eighth of appeal of some, oxen, in my cell show

sickly I was, you knows, hammered by the prisons. I was given now one year. Solitary confinement dirty earned in one day the Purser Box and I lost my visits for four years I'll My means, I can't see my family for four years. I lost commissary, everything else, but just for that I was put Mina in solitary four year, so that was that then, on top of that, for the same thing, Berman gave me where he was for years and nine months, basically another five years, but in the interim also to accept this is relevant one of them. The two brothers who you're suppliers and again rested right in and now this thing we were trying to avoid, would to fight against someone else and cooperating with the government now you're kind of compelled to do you want it.

But you did you I was drunk as brothers, I think at supper trials. I mean that war, and this is why this is why I got this sentence that I did the second time in and I understand it yeah in the first trial, I basically said there that, in that I said to the dossier was in regard to this gentleman was, I was True in that way, with withdrawing from how, in And what have you Do you test virtuously at the trial? That was truth that that was the truth, and they're, not on the second trial. I refused. I refuse to to go back. I looked at the papers, maybe there's a there's, a difference recollection here. That the prosecutors decided for various reasons, that you would be a good witness at the second. You didn't want to use you at the second trial and based these violations you went back before the the judge for reasons

and I want to make sure that I understood what everyone's view was and the probation department recommended threatened in sixty six days you're in a day, The guidelines were something like under two years and that the and prosecutors in my office said that consistent with what, thought the guidelines were, and they thought some false statement you made to them that it should be eighteen to twenty four months in enough talk to some of these, since, because I wasn't closely following it at the time and you go to court and they all expect you to get something between zero and twenty four months on top of the five which the court had felt. When are you feel is where the court it felt you'd been given a break entered Berman was was. That wasn't me yeah. He has the judge at the first sensing had said even in guinea, where he thought was a break quote therapeutically we all need to get over the theme, the Cameron Douglas as a victim, so it seemed a. He had a particular view about what responsibility your

setting right and then you have these other transgressions. Could you a lot of administrative penalty in prison as you, rob which are not soft and enjoy Roman says quote: I don't leave that I've had another case ever then, who is so recklessly and flagrantly in wantonly and criminally acted in as destructive and manipulative fashion as care Douglas. Has here I found that a little hard to believe since he situation and look you wasn't illustrative it in it. You know I have great respect, for Germany clearly, he was angry, often seen him angry, and it seems that you, the psychology of of judges who does people is the same as a psychology of other people. You actually analyze it pretty well. But some combination of feeling like a chump for sentenced me in a way that was well though the guidelines, the first time and or the transgressions endure, paraphrasing, you said it will eloquently and or the and I'm a privilege, wicked and or the fact that,

was this incident with your lawyer, who got into trouble for bringing you contraband and in an almost getting almost getting arrested and almost getting Lord herself. The combination of those things made him angry and he gave you what my folks new two times, what my foot recommended four and a half times what the probation Department recommended and you got four and a half years. So I think you ve said how you feel but explain your feeling in the moment I feel about it today Listen. I was a sort of short circuited at one point, when I went back to the bull pens kind of passed out, and then now You know I was in solitary confinement at the time and NBC got back Mysel ends he made on the unit had been riding. Flooding the toilets and everything like dad and I remember if you are having shelves, saw my books and Letters India LEO, Work in writing was

the ground and it was soaking, wet and ruined, and I felt they. Something inside of me was was was breaking and it was. It was scary feeling, but I think it was the impetus for the direction that I decided to go from that point. I think at that point there were two to sort of paths that I could have gone down, one very dish active and maybe, I never would have me at home as a result of an too- was the path that I chose to take, which was that I felt that I had to do everything I can do each day to get myself in the best possible position. I was released from prison to to make them life from myself, and it didn't happen with a snap of my fingers,

it was a journey I mean, so my year in solitary turned into AIDS, months or something like that, because Various you did various thanks various things rank wouldn't get into, some of them will so worthy. We should I mean you know there's when put into a yes meant box with another man too, three hours a day, and you don't get along with this other gentlemen. It can get pretty dangerous in there and so on Couple scenarios like that scenario in which you're the narrator. So I have to give you the benefit the doubt in how you describe the danger that you felt yourself to be in, and it was one cellmate you had who you thought in, like you and if you didn't strike first and figure out a way to be separated from him in the cell. But when you sell he might kill, you did make a direct threat, but you're a person has been in prison for while this point- and you make it.

And then one day, if I remember correctly, you sell made his doing pushups and you're very candid about this in the book. Your summit is doing pushups and you realize you have to take the first shot he do anything to you. Yet you just felt and generalized fear, and you kick him in the throat hard so hard that, for a moment, you think Maybe- too hard any might have killed. Him explain why you did that. Well, you know, I think, fit or is it something that makes people most dangerous? You know when somebody's is scared for their life, they become dangerous. And I was fearful of this guy It's not uncommon too, to be tat badly in your cell, in your sleep, you know by person that you're in the cell with joy you engaged in pre emptive violence not to protect yourself. Yes, I still think that those were the right thing to do

Probably probably this these gentlemen, and I were not in the place The reason now I shouldn't have been with this. A gentleman in the first place in his guards were screwing with you yeah they were. They were after him, they put me in with they away, apprenticed who had haven't been able to sell with anyone need been by himself the whole time and they decided put me in the cell with him. And down, and you attacked him to preemptively. I did. I did anything still. That was the correct thing. Absolutely Absolutely disguise this: you got jammed up for those things, yeah right. I did and an that's in part why you guidelines, I got jammed up for those things, but I also got my own so which ended up for you there's not a paradox is when we talk about prison rights of solitary is terrible in many ways, unless account is think it is critically for adolescents, but in some- for you was was a good thing, because you are safer and

something I think you write the youth. You started to appreciate being alone or no well. I mean I I I don't know for I is for in solitary confinement. I think some both seek refuge in solitary confinement. That wasn't my Sperience no do to you you know you have the opportunity to visit one transfer, you wrote, when you went in the the prison staff- knew that you might. You know in capsules? but was some folks with the prison, they asked you if you want to check in meaning gotta solitary and you want to be that person not to look like you being in the general population, and so you refused it exactly, as I did at every prison. I went every prison you go to. It's not me in particular, as you arrive at the prison, from the S S office will give you a brief interview and, though I ask you to

on this compound and if you feel safer, if there's any reason nation walk on this compound and then you tell them that you, can walk on the compound, they have you sign a piece of paper or to absolve them venue responsibility if you're killed. That's Knights, that's just that's everyone that goes to Rochester. A prison gets that treatment. I don't know me. Might my thing with solitary is, as I understand you know, too, to man safety ever of an individual or the people around him. But when You start getting into this, this long long stretches of solitary confinement. I wonder you know with the purposes you ask yourself. This solitary and finally make you less aggressive, and I think the answer would be. No. The solitary confinement maker mental state more balanced. I think the answer would be no, you know and I think you can go down this check list and

and so it's it's nothing. I think that that really deserves to be got a little harder certainly in in certain scenarios, in situations to manage people, safety, it's absolutely unnecessary tool, but I think they get abused. Here's. What I ve been wine. Ask you, since going through your book and hearing about your experience in his paradox about, since the prisoners offline. Many ways in some places are worse than others and by my, Aren't you weren't a lot of different places where the empty see the empty see FC? I Louis but I guess you are actually I Loretto FC, I Cumberland Dan vary in a bunch of place Then we can talk a little bit about what was different about those, but you say towards the end: your book and I found this very compelling. You say I can almost say I feel blessed by my prison experience. Not in every way, but it was prison that I began to get my life together. I got my prayers. These together. I answered Questions about myself it had always had you go on to say: I got into prison, a boy whom they were thirty

came out, a man so was proof, was prison I think I get it, but I want to hear how you described it so, just just because it sounds kind of funny. The way you said you never went into prison to boil, though I was thirty, so you know it's interesting. I think what happens when you? When one starts abusing drugs at an early age is you get caught at that you know you you you don't. Solely grow up. The way you freeze in Ireland? Have you freeze, but you know just stay here: the evolution is a little bit different, so in a lot of ways. You know you have a little more by adolescents, you know a little more reckless and Hopefully that will serve me. Moving forward is a start to become an old man

you gonna ways to go decade before we reach me even but but but have you swear this idea x? I think I know you're you're trying to say will so I went in prisoners is warranted aunt, hating ass, I wouldn't I would. I would never sit here and say that prison Is the answer you know I just I couldn't in good faith, with my experiencing an unseen when I've seen, but what can't say for me personally is act. Prison was this explosion anything short of this monumental explosion in my life, I dont think would have had gravitas too. Turn things around. I feel like I did a lot of growing up in prison. I had a lot of time to reflect in that to think that I'm gonna be able to to make it work. For me, that's really as part of this effort

here you know, is in an effort to take some of Some of that time, some of those experiences and turn them into something that's productive and helpful, and, in the end, useful, if you hadn't gone to prison, do you think he'd be here today? Probably not We would be alive if I was alive, I probably be wishing always dead. You know I mean that the drug addiction it goes through stages, you knowing and there's a stage when now, when it's almost q, edgy, maybe sexy to some you know, and then it gets to the stage where it's just destructive. Sad and messy and then you know and energies gets into dislike. You know just your cottages,

Like squirming through life, you know people that still living in this way, since it's not a good existence system, so. I feel very grateful today that you know one, a different path and certainly my variances our big part of why I'm on a different path, give advice to people who were may be caught up in the kinds of things you were when you were there. Before you got arrested, or is it not something simple advice can solve Well, you know. One of the areas that I feel strongly about is is working with. Risk youth, the twelve, Thirteen two like eighteen, I think, are very important years, especially for kids at our starting to go down that path. That leads to prison in violence in and then in death the cases. I think that you know those kids

need to hear from somebody that has been through it, because kids. They don't want to hear from just some guy woman talk to them. You know those kids are already starting to go down. That path kids already have certain ideals. They already look up to a certain kind of characters, did to hear from those kind of people that have been through stuff. Gotcha I think advice, boy. You know, as you know, I mean advice from people that you respect Hitler you know most of the time where advice from people that you don't necessarily have that level of respect for doesn't resonate quite ass. Much, do you make friends in prison? I did you describe it You say something that I think most people don't think about right. You said suddenly stuck in my mind, and that is paraphrasing again. Could you again said more eloquently on the outside? you get an hour with somebody you get their best self.

What have you taken me whenever? I think I've been fairly well behaved right. You don't know what kind of person I am right and it takes a long time someone on the outside to reveal himself, which I thought was a profound observing whereas on the inside you find out about a person pretty quick and that allows you with the people who on the same wavelength as you. You can make a connection with and you can become friends with that, how it works. I mean you, you get the measure of an individual a fairly quickly. People are tested daily and you get to see our people handle. Prince scenarios in situations, and you know you try to. Surround yourself with with, like minded people, I was it's also important, especially as you know you, your security classification goes up. You know you need to find a group of people that you are, you guys enjoy being around each other, and you guys look out for each other and its

I would I would get since its similar to the bonds in that that soldiers make similarities, I think, between between the two suffering the best senses which are you soldiers are out risking their lives, for their country and are making that comparison at all just the commodity that takes place on June thirteenth, two thousand, sixteen what happened June thirteenth. Two thousand. Sixteen I was released from Dan very and waiting for me, was was my mother and three of my siblings my girlfriend, whose you know, my rock with whom you have a child with we have a beautiful little daughter and live together. How to feel that day it was. It was special it with special bites. It was

impaired by the fact that I had nine months of halfway house I mean it's, not people think that when you are released from prison, it's like does the way you know in there and there still the opera as you point out there, still the opportunity to go back if you screw up, as you saw people dead and the halfway house, well, it is more than more generous opportunity. I'd say I mean I think that's another issue that we have is an example earlier he ass. He really is. I mean you know these guys, it's hot to convey how differ What it is for these men and women once they home to China make it work. I was a situation that, Nobody is in upon coming home from prison. With the support and love of family You point, you say thing, that's pretty sad where you were from everyone else. I forget which institution was made us all of them that when the a bad came around, there's, not a mail for you.

And the cards would make fun like Cameron, cameras got, male Cameron's got more male and there were people in their who never got a bit mail from anybody, people forget about people in prison. And I understand it, it was a sentiment that I understand first hand as I had an acquaintance of mine was sent the ten years in prison. While I was on the street, and I remember thinking or he's gone like yours not being dead in ten years when you're on the streets is like a lifetime. So you know that people are forgotten about in prisons. You know people move on with their lives and that's just you know Unfortunately, one of the unfortunate things that that that come with you that lifestyle in and whatever comes with it, but you know. Most of these people are coming home and it's it's really difficult.

Them even myself. I had lot of trouble finding a place to live. No, no buildings wanted me as a tenant No landlords wanted to write to me. You know finding. A job I mean forget being inspired by your job. Killed by your job but you're just getting when I'm in the gym just getting spoken about these issues and got involved in these issues it towards the end of my time at US attorney, even The thing you don't have a problem because you have resources and means love. You gotta prison. They a government issued idea. I did a problem because you were able to solve the problem more easily than Summum supposing. Well I don't I don't know I mean I everything was I lost all my property in the EPA seizures in everything like I saw coming out. I was bad nothing I had no idea is nothing new I had was prison idee card agenda, actually had a. I check

from the government from malpractice thousand dollar. One thousand dollars messed up your leg. They messed up my leg, but I could put it in a bank anywhere, because I d never so it's him There- is a real process takes several times going to the de envy. You have the final document nations, not it's. It's not easy. And I think I am this is kind of a way I like to put it. Maybe people can understand his we can both agree, Pre DEC Our government and our judicial system is not known for being warming fuzzy. You know it is not ok, and so, if the time and that our government feels is is suitable that they dole out and they feel is suitable punishment for what, for actions the man and woman have committed, in that time should be suitable for any landlord any employer. Anybody else that these people, have to deal with coming home, you know that what you're doing when you're going to prison your service,

time in, as we said, I think we can both agree that if a government finds it suitable. I think it can be. Good enough for everyone else. Are you corresponding with anyone. You knew in prison. Still I do here from friends to make it your book or not I some prisons don't allow her covers. Didn't. I suspect these guys are pretty crafty united at that time. At a global level contraband you can smuggle in smuggling Eddie. I just think you will find a leg, alien trouble. What's the message you have to those guys manner mean any message that I would have for them. Probably learned through them you know so there's nothing better than I could say they want to be mad at you, weathers you changed the names, I hope there's nobody that, Sir, that's absurd you know. I mean family was it

dreamily generous in allowing me to to tell my story. I me, I can't think of her of a more loving way to show how much you care about someone than by allowing me to to write, a book that inevitably is going to put, some of their life in the spotlight? So you know, if, if my family, and I can I can make it work. I don't think there's should be anybody that should be to upset. I mean I mean I did this all to myself in others, no really to blame, but just trying to forward in and make something useful out of it as a very brave the book written nothing's. It was it's a big deal that you would see here and talk to me for over an hour but party I make my own book. Is there not a human being right and from the prosecutors perspective, sometimes forget that the defendants, you prosecutor, human beings, until you flip them and then some They become your buddies because now there on your side, people who defend can forget that judges are human beings, and I don't know

exactly what happened case, but judges. Color within the lines and still have no reaction to being shown up by some Now that this this thing that happened would judge Berman. I've been thinking about it and, I think, is a very good judge. But there are some who have seen when they have a defendant refer them and they give them a break if they see that person back in the courtroom again in a they go ballistic, a hammer them almost as much, if not more than they would have had they not given the break in the first place, is at a function of sort of Legal theory, I don't know, is it a function of human psychology? Probably more so. The point of all this is adding seas our relations have so far. In my line of work understand what it is that happens. In the mind of someone else to go to the system and we want the best things everyday was have then Brackman your lawyer common address, my office. When I was, he was attorney to explain the perspective of other people. Explain what it's like four.

A lawyer to be higher than the case in what the last minute and for the prosecutor be saying, You know your client has an hour to flip, otherwise gonna go to court and the offer expires, and how does it work? If, then, is trying to build a report client and, by the same token, when there is an error. My book is there's a lot of people who are not part of law enforcement, who have a view the prosecutors aren't thoughtful, they dont consider the possibilities of innocence consider the ramifications of their decisions and help them, and us and just like everyone else, prosecutors are people flaws. They have in everyone's different right, everyone's everyone module just like that's why I thought in part the conversation that we had about cooperating and what you were in the book as you keep coming back to it. It's a personal decision in there have been high level mobsters who flee, easily and some whenever flip ever and that people are different and you make a deal I guess I wonder if think the issue on flipping and cooperation. If you think that that should be something

should be banned or outlawed, or was it just a personal decision for you? You thought that a self respecting person shouldn't operator, bring other people into their own troubles, I think of it nothing or a bore a policy. Ok, so I think I think, from the legal standpoint and from justice standpoint, I think utilizing the The monies individuals whose own lives are at stake. I dont the daddy's good enough testimony put somebody away for potentially you know five ten twenty fifty years is P however, have a horse in the You know their own freedom is at stake, so we are now facing corroboration. Unless someone that's the case, you know it's, you know. If you get it, I civilian witness or something night- that's a different story. So I just, I just don't think it's fair. I dont think its justice, when the only testimony you have is from your people that ensue.

Cases such as be honest, are being taught what to say you know, by their prosecutors or by the agents. Mrs reality, not in cases, but there you know this is this can happen and then yes personally, I do. I feel I feel strongly about that its? I couldn't live with myself literally, I thought it every moment of every day until I to figure out some way to kind of do what I can do to eat. It out and back out of it. You know everybody's on their own journey, their own path and with every choice we make, there's a there's, an outcome, and within that we learn in, we evolve hey, you do now I feel like I'm doing pretty good. You know who I am Quite honestly, as I said at the beginning, one of them things it. I'm looking for two through this whole process,

the book is, is to be to move on with my life You know now in the process of speaking about this broken. Because you ve gotta be in the view, beyond the view, that's right, man think gotta. Do the circuit for us right got to do the circuit you acting again acting again doing a lot of writing rain poetry in prison did a lot of military before prison. I wasn't but When some screen writing is well ends acting been doing a lot of theatre. Most of my life, you know not. Now I hear that now right here, maybe a little bit. It adds that goes. Go back goes back to where we are saying about. You know, did you get the best version or somebody in I've won our right? vodka. By german insides. It's good, I feel, like I've been

really working hard in home for a little over three years. Can you still do this approach that I read the book? Can you still one fifteen hundred pushups in the morning No, I don't think so, but been you know. My life is very simple: by design it might, revolves around my family and my work and I and that's been the way it's been since I stepped through those gate on June thirteenth at twenty sixth, and that's how it continues to be an it seems to be working out well for me, things are starting to come together and I feel like I'm, starting to put a life together for myself that I can feel good about your young man. So you got a lot of time. Cameron, Douglas thanks for being on the show. The book is long way home. Congratulations great! I wish you the best of luck. Thank you. Thank you grab me three. My conversation continues for members of the cafe insider community to hear the statement.

Mr Cameron Douglas and get the exclusively the coffee. Insider podcast gotta cafe dot com lash insider. Try a cafe insider membership free for two weeks start today: a cafe dot com, slash, cider, so I hope you enjoy the conversation the camera Douglas and I had about these experiences in the criminal justice system is experiences in prison. Hope. You thought, as I did. It has a very honest, candid discussion. I thought I'd tell you a story that further to some of the things that Cameron said that I've talked about in the past and that has just begun you're behind prison walls doesn't mean you beyond the constitution and just because you committed a crime that has caused it to be sent to prison, doesn't mean that this system should forget about you and doesn't mean that the system shouldn't do things to make sure that you have opportunities to prove yourself to redeem yourself and to make your way in the world again when you get out and that's a profound failure of the prisoners

and even though Cameron Douglas seems to have made it out with lots of scars. Lots of other folks cap the way when they come out now there are programmes from time to time in different places that I think take that obligation were seriously tell people who are in prison bring themselves up in one such programme is at the Eastern Europe Correctional Facility. That is near, by Happenstance Lard College, and there is something called the barred prison initiative which offers college experiences to men who are incarcerated at Easter New York, and there was a cut

big deal story for years ago around this time that the Wall Street Journal reported on three people who were on the debate team? There's a debate team at Easter, New York competed against of all teams, three members of the Harvard College debating Union and after a rigorous debate on a public school issue. The veteran judges of that debate between three inmates and three Harvard College students was that the people who are in prison had won the debate. This week. The Wall Street Journal didn't update on that story describing where some of those folks

prison who won the debate against Harvard have gone. One of them left prison. Two years ago, graduate from bards programme with a math major ended up working on a congressman's bid to become the attorney general, the state of New York and other finished his degree in applied, mathematics and biology at barred worked as a math tudor and now has a good job and investment business in midtown. The third has earned a bachelor and social studies and masters and professional studies, although he is not yet out of prison. At the time of the debate, which got a lot of attention. Outgoing education secretary, Arnie Duncan said someone should make a movie about this true story. Well, I don't know that a movie has been made, but there is a four part documentary series on November twenty fifth executive produced by storied Documentarily kingbirds the profile some of these men. So as we think about the issues raised by Cameron Douglas in his book, some of the issues raised in my book and

public discussion about what incarceration should be or should not be how we can lower the rates of incarceration. How can prepare people for life think about whether or not we should have more programs like the Bard initiative, because it's Bryan Stevenson says and is- I repeat, often you're more than the worst thing you ve ever done, well, that's it for this episode of Satan, thanks again to my guest Cameron, Douglas. If you like, of regional trade and review the show on actual podcast or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners. Fine shall send me

questions about news, politics and justice, tweak them to me at three Ferrara with the hashtag asprey or you can call and leave a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight that's six hundred and sixty nine two thousand four hundred and eighty four you can send an email to stay tuned at cafe, dot com stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is Tamara Stepper, the senior producers are insulting. The audio producer is David Tadich or in the cafe team is Carla Calvin. Lord David Philander and justifies our music is by Andrew guys. I'm free, Ferrara stay tuned.