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the Eu S being Logo and european College. Football are registered, trademarks of European incorporated from CAFE, welcome to stay to on preparing, so the pre in it basically signal to a bunch of races. Ruffians. Stand by. I may need to activate you because there's some stuff going on out there related to the selection, and nobody knows exactly what he means or how far he's gonna go. That happened. National television last night, that's era, Louis he's an anchor at New York, one please hosted the nightly. Prime time show inside City Hall for the last decade. It folk, as a New York City, news, politics and culture throughout his we're Errol his moderated dozens of political debates and is one of the most info. Joe voices in New York city politics? He joined me today to reflect on the first presidential debate if we could even call it that we talk about the candidates, performances, their strategy and the craft

really plus. We talk about the current quality of life in New York City and the curious policy, of its mayor build a blog. You that's coming up, stay tuned, My guess this week, this era Louis he's a political news anchored at New York One and has been won. go to voices in New York, city and national politics for over a decade today, early, made a breakdown? What happened during the first presidential debate between Trump and Biden, arrows Sperience debate, moderators, let's turned to his analysis era. Welcome to the show glad Will you bring its long or do I've watched you for a long time. I have appeared on on your show and we ve done confidence together as recently as last week. So it's a real privilege and treat to have you surf x becoming absolutely love, love to be with you.

so we are recording this on Wednesday morning. The last day of September, much of America probably waking up from hang over. There was caused not so much by the imbibing of alcohol. As from that so called president, debate we had last night and I want to go and spend some time getting your reaction, DEN Abash, who we both know from seeing even though it was a cable television and not that late at night Her reaction was address, gonna say it like it is that was should show. Do you agree with it You know it's interesting We will yes, yes, of course, now to adopt the language. You are innocent, they give you who's that I worked with her only presidential debate, I ever got a chance to be a part of was in April. sixteen. When I was one of the questioners afford the final primary tube

between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders and show is one of the other questioner so actually got to work with her for a few weeks in that night was a big big deal and we get to talk a lot, and I was alone Surprise because you know that was advisedly she's, not so who just kind of flies off the handle. I've worked with our senior under pray, appear, so she won't hasn't use being analytical. Why should the analytical and precise? Yes, it was a shit. I will emphasize that we re was maybe no. Nobody involved, television on any level, even if it's the presidential commission that does this once every four years. Nobody could have thought that that was good television. It was No, I know, from the viewers point of view, was hard to watch a you know. A media professional. I you know I've seen good television, I seed bad televisions. Doesn't matter it's my job, I gotta watch it you know, but I could I can. Certainly tell that for it

viewers who were out there just try to get a little information about the government. It was poor we very very hard to watch. So my question is: was Donald Trump being intentional and strategic, you say the television bachelor's, and whatever else you say about Donald Trump, his policies is ethics. His veracity, the guy became pray. Because he knew something about good television to have you reconcile those things are well, I mean stopping good television from happening. The best moments in that debate went to jail. I'd in when he looked directly in the camera and sometimes he held out his hand. You know like an open appeal saying all of you at home. How are you doing with your you know your family, your health, the your jobs, look you folks how many of you up this morning and had an empty chair the kitchen table, because someone died a covert. How many of you are in a situation where you lost your mom and dad you couldn't even speak to him. He had a nurse HOLLAND phone up, so you can in fact sake a bottle, thus far

it's a great way of using the medium down from fully understood probably more than most of us, but just immediately try to do the equivalent of what basketball play do when somebody coming down the lane about to do an easy layup. He tried he tried to follow. You know it's like what you see in hockey right demean. Somebody getting ready to get near the goal. You just stop that guy in it and it never looks pretty, but I think that's what Donald, I was trying to do that. If you know he'd rather have a bad, awful disrupted, derailed debate. Then a good debate where the other side is is scoring point. That's interesting. So here trying to prevent so his knowledge of television, his expertise in television taught him in a circumstance to prevent good television for Biden, even if it meant not great television for himself, because that was his only move

exact the right to me. This is this: is the person who sees the maneuvering, four or five chest moves ahead and says? Oh crap, here comes checkmate. I better just knocked the table over which is pretty much what we saw last night, we'll. How can we didn't do that would Clinton there was. More watchful series of debates and twenty sixteen or you know he was. She was kind of riding high and he was doing all kinds of things. Remember the town, all format when he just said stood behind what was like looming over her failure. Person has stayed Sakharov, I read it was crazy, but it it it did when his audience wanted. Him do- and you know it in the name of the game in that particular race, for better or worse for a lot of different reasons we could get into was disrespecting. Hillary Clinton was the path to victory right for for a lot of people. You know it certainly helped Bernie Sanders in the primary season. It help. It is

the career of. I don't know how many account list. Radio show hosts and pundits an adult, drug road, that same wave after twenty years of demonizing Hillary Clinton, you know became an industry. You could sell a book, you can sell a magazine article, you could sell in appearance on television. You could build a political can came out of simply disrespecting her, and so that's just what he did and it didn't hurt him one bit politically. Unfortunately, so when people keep saying It was difficult to wash in that brief statement. No one is taking for the particular position and I guess the three figures who were involved in the debate. There is binders tromp, there's also Chris Wallace, when you make that where do you lay the blame mostly? Well, you know it's interesting. I would say much of the blame that's going to attach to quit Wallace really belongs with the sponsors of the debate and, of course, Is there as the visual face of the debate sponsors but she didn't really have the level of control that would have been required.

To put things in check. If that's what you wanted to do so I say it this way: I've I've moderated over a hundred debates have done a ton of debates. For I know you are Senate, for I told you got the one presidential one I've done state attorney general, and every may Urals debate since two thousand five in one capacity or another, and the key thing in all of it is you ve got to keep control and by that I mean you have to have full control up to and including cutting off microphones. You have to be able to make a credible threat to people. I will stop this debate. I have the power to stop this debate. If you don't follow the rules, Chris Wallace didn't really have that kind of power because the rules were set by the President debate. Commissioner, was not a Fox news debate. He didn't have any producers in his ear, so there Do you know there is nobody for him like what I've done we ve done is I did isn't adults, twenty seven Tita Bia mayoral

debates they are. We are one of the candidates was acting out about deal and I threatened him in. I planned this out with our vote, Look you guys. You know you gonna back me up. If I have to go to the wall with these guys, a nation assured me that they would- and they told me Look if you keep interrupting I'm in a cut your MIKE off yelling and shouting and interrupting you, like, I told him to cut off his MIKE and then he turned. You and say Reagan style microphone. What we did was we, which is even worse, is the he yelled so loud. The other MIKE's picked up. Some people don't need of life. Have you thought about it, but here is an example of how far we have to go with control in that same debate at sort of minor legend in local political circles. For this actually ejected somebody from the audience could audience was getting rowdy and were screaming in the alliance? Often- and I again I have- I have cleared this with my folks in advance. As it look, are you guys gonna actually help?

now here, if I have to throw somebody out message, sure we'll have security, throw the guy out, it's just what we did or what can I eat? Can I make a comment? Yes, I think you're thirsty for power. I think this is going to your hair lead. Their cunning makes announcing people out there I mean look. Is light years use years, the exact equivalent, if so, he came along while we're talking and you know, you're a picture deuces out of the room is that you know what we're going to take over this park asked, start inserting commercials that you have an approved. Will you Oh you know, raising in lowering MIKE levels we're gonna start introducing new guess that you never asked for you, say before but any of that stuff happen, I will just end podcast Wigand ended right here and now and then the exact equivalent, I mean what I tell my students in journals places, it look the

and you're there for if you're, the moderator is to control the flow of the conversation, and if you can't control the flow of the conversation you might as well just get up and leave and just let any random person off the street come in and over your debate and like each each you just can't let that happen now I mean for me, you know it's a real power hungry among other things, when I'm doing the base for New York one. It's my shall you know what I mean So it's gonna like coming My show away from me some guy off the street. I don't think so near the captain now here on this question of the mixed, I find it interesting, as some people were suggesting exactly that last night and you you had a power in the debate with bio diesel? you always insist on having that. Did you have that power of MIKE cancellation in the debate between Bernie Sanders Hillary Clinton ordeal insist upon it or ask for it when you think it's going to be a problem and you ve anticipated there, the recent planning- and I have

first of all in the sea in a debate it was it wasn't my shop, I was the kind of as a guest, but but it did come up and maybe things do come up in one of the thing he's when you're gaming out what is likely to happen, which you have to do for your rehearsal purposes like how long you know technical stuff like how long will it take in? What's that proper wording of a question which question: should we ask in what order, but then, along with that, you have shoes, especially in New York politics with, is there to be any disruption. It always Neither can it be protesters day. Right right raises is, are you know, are they're gonna be out? You know slanderous accusations, pearls from the podium and if so, how do we handle back and get out to the extent that you want a plan this all out and make sure it doesnt we run away and run out of control. Different questions do come up so that you know if such and such happens, then what get this than that in the case about digital? We knew that he was enough of a loose cannon that frankly

add an internal discussion about whether we should even be part of the debate. I lost that argument. That's the only reason he was in the room and then the the additional question was what, if he just acts completely disruptive and that's when we introduced the question of like look good night, and I have to be able to tell them that we're going to snow debate or else other people will either take control of the debate or in fact, start the debate. We can't let the stuff go out over our air in the case of less I I don't know how much control Chris Wallace Head, but I know because they said this producers talking in his ear, feeding him questions or staring him towards an exit. If there was a real problem, he had a kind of make it up ass. He went along. Ah you know the one thing I will say: is he now the two if he was gonna, take any strong action at all. He needed to do it on the very first interruption. You know it's like I do not like the old movies. If you're you know, in a prison yard for the first time right. The first person who comes

Do you you ve gotta, take that guy down right, Everybody else is watching and they're going to see you what is and isn't going to be permissible, and you know for him to for Chris Wallace to finally raises voice. I think about an hour into the debate, like what do you say to them that the very few time. You should have stopped the debate on that you, don't you just stop the debate to save him. You tell me about he's like, like everybody, stop we're gonna, stop the debate right here. need a little check in how do you want to do this? Are you going to follow the rules that you agree to? Where are you not cause, if you're not that, we really do have the debate that we had all agree to have to debate moderators ever packet Tranquilizer gun? I'm just set a bad idea. I think a taser. Probably maybe it's too much

and learning next it? The next step would be to say, like here's, a video of your loved ones in the next room with fifty we see a shame if something happens to them up it's up to you, Mr President, we ve got a lot of extra where this is just jokes, guys early just joking and as we discuss is power hungry this category, is not the same thing: control according to Forbes, Jim nail salons, hotels, mom and pop stores and more are set to go in, and epic hiring spree in the coming months. Businesses are expanding to meet the pent up demand for all of these services. The thing is: hiring has never been more complicated We don't know what the world will look like next week, let alone next year, in charge of hiring for your company, you could probably use a little backup and you can try, zip recruiter for free at zip, recruiter, dot com, Slash creek when you posted job on zip recruiter, based

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was free when you sign up for interactive monitoring service. Just visit, simply saved our com, slash priest to customize your system and start protecting your home and family today. Again that simply saved outcome, Slash preach sucrose Wallace generally can, I think, is an excellent journalist, and I think, coming into this debate was kind of hailed as one of the better. If not one of the best damn moderated anyone. You know harp on him too. Much doesn't want talk about the candidates in the substance. Hurry. How did you screwed up? Well, I mean again, you know you rid of these rules and it's like the rules right is it's a big look. It's like it's like if you, if you put it blue uniform. This is Nypd and use walking around. You know tapping your Billy club on the street, but you're Should we not a cop you have yourself to doesn't really funky situations and that's pretty much what he did We look at the guy. We say this is Chris Wallace. The esteem

Award winning journalist was the son of a legit. a journalist who has done this stuff for years and who, only a few days ago face down the president and basically callable liar to his face sitting there at the White House. You know this is that this guy's got some grit in those got some still Nowadays, it is any smart and he's on the issues and he's not afraid of you know: he's got a powerful news. Innovation that'll back em up he's got everything you need to do the moderators job that we think he was doing. But again, these presidential Debate they want to, and he said I think, Frank fabric, opposite autonomy. Do they wanted him to be invisible, but they just want it's magically fur great conversation that happened between these two candidates, as if it was you know France, or something right where they sit and just talk without a moderator for two hours right I joked on twitter last night. You know I love that they returned to the Lincoln Douglas Debate format.

That way: minus Lincoln and dug debate and an excellent and format exactly exert. There was one and it only lasted about five minutes in its fleeting, but I'd be where you can find it online. So I want to tell you: listen is about it in the past we debated twenty thirteen between Scots trigger Anne Elliot Spitzer alleys bitter decided to make a come back here, resides ensue in disgrace, as governor but was making a comeback, and so this is the the credit primary for New York City controller, I was moderating the debate along with the brain Leora, whose great guy from public radio. and you know when we gave it out. We time it out. We ve, you know we had our questions and about how do you know maybe eight minutes into the bait. They really started going at it up personal. They brought up ex. They were really really going at it and we

Brian and I we did something you normally wouldn't do. Having said all that stuff about Control Control Control, we just sat back and ignore. the format, it just looks trade, basically body blouse one would but you did this. You did that that's true you're, a liar bam? then the other would answer. On the contrary, you did this, you did that, how do you Question might ethics there's more to the story Bam then and they just traded back and forth and emotionally and substantively. Just seem like the right thing to do to like: let them go at it and in fact happened? Was they got out a lot of their bad energy? They said. is that were were making balsam crazy about the other? And then we didn't we did the rest of the debate in a worker fine, but that's for that. so the so rare. So so rare I guess it has to be in the moment, because I am wondering why- and maybe this happened to people afterward suggest that you and in broiler abdicated and lost control or not

no you don't ever came to that, because you know we would have if it had gone on too long, we would have had to intervene, but it was substantive and it was. It was real. It was real because all the rules or just a framework, and we want either way you can screw up a debate which some people do is the minute they go over some arbitrary requirement, like if you'd say in a like last night, they said you get to uninterrupted minutes. If the moderator sturdy jumping in two minutes and five seconds, while the poorest mid sentence? That's just dumb, you know. Is it it's a framework to enable a good conversation to happen at the good conversation actually happens, you think you're lucky stars any let it happen, but a lot of moderators. Don't think of it. That way, and that's when things can go wrong. So much about the position of Joe Biden. All this programme, a trumpet, talked about cresswells now you're Joe Biden, and you have your talking points in you understand you can look directly in the camera and you can talk about everything you can talk about them

and there's a powerful moments. We talked about how his son had addiction to drugs gift. I lost another discussion afterwards, Jai Son, like a lot of people like all the people you know at home had a drug problem he's over taking it he's he's fixed, it he's worked on it and I'm proud of it, but when Trump starts interrupting you and Chris Wallace is not gaining control. Is there something else that bite have done? No, I think I think you did a right. I think you did it exactly right. I mean he. Probably more of the bad behaviour go by and you are. I would have put that's why we're not gonna be president of the United States. Where are you ready, do, though, from time to time, was throwing some singers there We all remember the next day and they look. The bottom line is that nobody else did very few people in the world who can say this. He called the president to his face a racist now wait a minute. You get the final word. No, it's hard to get anywhere do with this clown.

You know I mean they told her shut up. It's all the waterways As- and I request that you ask the noise of yours- is the rational left. Would you Mason, who is on your list? You believe that Martin? It was that it was a good thing to do he had to do it. Did you a few? or what did he say? Trumps level What did you think he's you didn't think the trumps level, or else he would have been doing it constantly and bye bye dad? being a cheer in there. He let it be known to me at least he let it be known, it's like ok, he's not gonna, be a doormat. You know cause nobody wants that and if you'd let the president go go preserved with all of his antics, would have started to raise questions about, will wait a minute. If can this guy take on? You know the Russians or the chinese dictator. If, if you can't even take on this guy across the sky, age. So what about the laughing? What about the body? Shall I put it to the more of that but it is more than I am thinking back to twenty twelve, the vice presidential debate here. Basically, we laugh at Paul Ryan

you seem genuinely amused. He was very effective and the debate against Paul Ryan, why is this was that it was a first, he trotted out. The word malarkey. I think in ways that I remember our adversaries and much more willing to test us, the more brazen their tax and our allies are less willing to with all due respect. That's emotional Marcie. and why is that? Not a single thing, you said is accurate. When these haymakers he's sitting there is laughing at the kid an end and it made Ryan visibly angry to be ridiculed, and we know from the emotional make up of the commander in chief, it would have driven trump, absolutely nuts if he just laughed at him. You know it. And I will I will. I thought that there be a moment were biting, would try and do what Reagan did in eighteen, eighty against Jimmy Carter and say there you go again You know, which is all you need is like em mnemonic, just to remind everybody. You know as it turns out, would bite inside was your everybody knows. This guy lies all the time it's a given was mind in America changed by the debate.

It would seem to me that one strategy for Trump and binding, and especially for Trump, whose losing a most of the poles, including battleground states. He would want to get some people who are on the fence to come to his side did any changing happened last night. I think I think I did, but The sense that you or I would use the the phrase Joe changing minds. I think, unfortunately, negative ugly campaigning in negative ugly debates are part of negative campaigning. Having us oppressive effect does actually some political science literature this- that you know a nasty negative campaigning is not intended to change minds but intended to change minds in the sense that people decide not devoted all turn people off yet just turn people off it's a rigged game. I hate these politicians. They you know they. They behave worse than kindergarten class, and I'm just knock and everything to do with it, and that I think, was of conscious strategy no again going back to afflict the board over. If it looks like your movie toward checkmate, you know just

game right here, rather whose at her more than it does at her by more in the estimation of Trump, I think you know, I think it's or like there's a very great phrase, I think, as in the New York Times what they said drawback to like somebody wanted to Ten on the grenade, a you know, sort of hoping that it will damage the other person more in our will on on the Is it just to follow your ear? Your line of questioning, I figure exactly right, is one of the things I was slightly mystified by is and listening to the debate last night is I'm thinking, ok lead suburban women. We know he need suburban women, not just the pulses in the Pandit say that from port. It has said as much himself and yet with all of those antics in the interrupting the vulgarity, and all this stuff The one thing I know about suburban women. You know I was raised in the suburbs. Like you, one thing within dont, like to be interrupted right, so he's turning them off.

Every time you opened his mouth and yet he chooses to do it. I was with a suburban woman last night and I bet you loved and she does not feel better about diatribe than she did. you that right now there is a moment the debate. I know you commented on it last night. I maybe, is the worst momentum debate I don't know without troop was asked about a white supremacist group known as the proud boys, any data the bizarre response right like only to can derive from less unripe prior. My wife stand back and stand by and there are reports that people who are members of that group were overjoyed by that acknowledgement lose your reaction. To that I mean it. speaks for itself admitted breathtaking, its Charlottesville all over again. You know I mean this is not somebody who telegraphs what he wants to do. It's not. It's not. A dog was a little foghorn. It was

in this case it was literally a call to arms to people to go into polling sites, disrupt the elections any which way they can I mean you drop drop his late. How what strategy is he once did wrapped the elections anyway, he can you know, sort of I think of it as well. a ninety day version of what we saw last night disrupt the proceedings. If you think you can't win you ones through so much doubt and fear in frenzy into the voting process, and what will end up with is a count. Bad, under this scenario, would have to either be given to the Supreme Court to four out the way we did in two thousand to make some legalistic rulings that would essentially the outcome of the election? If it you come down to that or havoc to the House of Representatives, in which case we know were unknown unbeknownst to me. People it's one vote per state, not by the size

delegation of the state, but but just the state, so California gets the same voters, Roma and there you go. and in our under both scenarios he has a much better chance of winning then, what it looks like the poles are suggesting right now, and so I I was taken aback because you know you never dream that you're gonna be part of what we ve all read about in history books that this was the moment when you know I don't know Weimar Germany, you know collapsed. This was this was the moment when democracy, you know, failed in the civil war began in the eighteen sixties. You'd, never think that you're gonna see something yeah, but it was one of those moments. I would link it up with. A moment I experienced in Cleveland a four year. Ago, at the report. and convention when they started chanting lock her up where you think to yourself, like our men. We just crossed a line here.

And I dont know that- does any going back. So the president basically signal to a bunch of racist, ruffians standby. I may need to activate you because there's some stuff going on out there related to the selection, and nobody knows exactly what he means or how far he's going to go. That happened on national television last night. How do suburban women feel about that, I don't like the problem is finally been letting us about twice and I don't know I don't think most people. You know that there were a couple of broadcasters. week, who were saying too audiences. This is that moment. This is the most. like everybody. You know me. I thought about in their minded some point. Well look at bay. Now, if I show the Poles and there's a bunch of people was swastikas on, and you know bayonets saying go away. We know there's gonna be vote today. because would understand something significant happened and that we would sort. I have to do something about it. What a number abroad

Asters were saying was like this. Is that moment this it? It's just that bad, that we are being told that the election is going to be distorted. Denied and you ve got to figure out what you gonna do about it. I would I would second that thought that people should not take this for granted because, just like in February and March we thinking. Oh there's this disease out there it's sort of like the flu, but maybe worse, you know I don't really need to take any steps because nobody, I know it's gotten sick yet and then next thing. You know within a matter of weeks, everybody you know it has to deal with this. The entire world changes because of it literally in this case, what about some of the things that Joe Biden was asked about? Will you surprise at all, having some people express surprise, and maybe they should not have their when pressed on an issue with respect to the environment? Now Joe Biden looked into the camera and said I am not for a green new deal

and I'm a couple of occasions that that that was one and then there was another one word from seem to be trying to put a wedge between button and the liberal left. Would you that may well be another, though the latter one, I think, was just kind of laughable. You know where the trunk was saying You just lost the social is left and so far I don't know- social is left, is taking their choose from Donald Trump for one day. If I also think to the extent that there is a legitimate question there there is new in all. Their divisions within the Democratic Party of the Democratic Party is a fractious coalition. There are a lot of different people come from a lot of different places, even on the same issues or whether it's you know the environment and climate change or whether its law enforcement in you know racial justice. So so you don't that's their an end. binding, I thought was very forceful and very savvy to say I'm the Democratic Party, what it whatever it is. You think Democrats stand for, I'm it now. I've got that role. I've got that power. I've got that influence.

You know it implied in that, of course, is that if you really really really don't like it, in vain or vapor done job. You know, that's what he's. We say to those in need had a coalition who we're gonna be upset by him, so vowing the green new deal by the The green new deal is war more a set of concepts than an actual proof Why am I mean the recent legislation? That's out there, but if you read the legislation, even that- As you know, eighty percent aspirational- you know it's not like they're saying we're, gonna cut few ended by this much next year. what they're saying is we have to do away with all fossil fuels? You know with all at all all immediate speed, and that's I mean it in what bite into saying is like well now, that's not how we gonna do it. I've got a different paths to get there, but we're not gonna. Do it that way as has been pointed out last night. This was fact litigated in democratic, primary and people had there

Voice of many many left of Centre Kennedy seduce from they had Elizabeth Warren and they had beta, were wrong can they have you I am in and they chose Joe Biden So you know, that's that's the answer. Now, maybe not as far as matters aggressive climate change as you or I would like, but you know you, you support the candidate, you have not forget it. You wish right. Like Donald Rumsfeld would say go. Don't you go to war with the army? You have not the army, which you have not to put down Rumsfeld on the show. I should act and listeners first time Warner again. I want one last question about this debate and will not talk about the future. I never understood the strategy of making it sound, like Biden basically was incapable of coherent speech going into the debate. Loring expectations, so much forbidden, the just being able to show up and withstand attacks by Trump and completing sentences would cause him to exceed expectations. And when did you get that

tromp, is a lot of things, but you know he is more tactically sometimes. But what was that about? You know it's only totally backfire. I mean it is totally backfire, isn't easy mistake to make the first election voted was a eighteen. Eighty and I remember in the run up to it the Carter, the Jimmy Carter, people. The Democrats, had said that Ronald Reagan he's crazy, warmonger he's just like very Goldwater he's the blow the world. He can't be trusted with a nuclear bomb and on and on and on and on and then who for the one and only debate they had in eighteen. Eighty, so perfectly reasonable. You know sharp guy who NEO Nazi now, not crazy. Not blood thirsty, not a warmonger. Now I mean I still invoke forum, but but they were allowed. The invitations yeah well be up. Please you be one New York twice eighty one New York State twice so so that they play this expectations gave exactly wrong, and maybe they saw overdue

that the minute he came in just have you no subject verb agreement. He would have defeated expectations Did you hear the other thing is? This is a guy who has been in politics for forty seven years. They train hang around. neck like a millstone Thinking is, if you woke MIKE Tyson up in the middle of the night and he was hung over or actively drunk, he'd still blocks. Pretty well just just from muscle memory. You know it's like you. Can you can wake up job right into the middle of the night and he would have great reef debate. flexes because he's literally been doing it his entire adult life? Do you think, I'm that part of the reason for Biden doing well I was the enormous amount of performance enhancing drugs that he must have taken with regard to talk about that have actually less somebody's conspiracy theories. Are people showing pictures there's a picture that suggests he had a wire that that was coming from his jacket that he had an ivy For the rest, I mean you know what is what

can we say about my got when looking at the ultimate drug witches ambition you now unable to put it that way. Heaves! This is a guys would. This is what is wanted. His entire life. Everything he's ever done is an adult. Was leading up to it, moment, any Rosalie occasional mean on some human level. You actually want to celebrate that a little bit, riotously well cheese, the guy's been trying, since he was twenty nine. in college. I remember thinking about supporting his campaign in nineteen. Eighty eight zero out before he got it out interesting, even one twenty four president for very long assets. So what happened? So the next debate, mercifully, is not until October fifteenth. What's your advice to Trump to Biden and to the moderator, Steve Scully of C span. For that I understand it's gonna be a town hall format of maybe that alleviate some of the problems we have. from last night, but it means everyone denote approach this the same way or will there be some lessons learned idea? I don't I don't think you're gonna be lessons learned. I don't think them. I don't like the plague,

changes that much you know I mean unless the stock market crashes or boons, or unless a vaccines righteously appears on the resolute desk in the oval office or something, and I mean, unless something serious, cheat or changes there- their positions fixed and their needs and their objectives in their tactics are not necessarily gonna change that what happen in a town. Hall format is bilby antics they'll be different antics and they then they might be worse coming from President Trump, because As we know the brand I didn't brand is to connect to empathize. And in the town Hall format, just as was true for four are built Can a generation ago he's gonna excel he's gonna! Absolutely so you know what MIDI hugs people we asked about their struggles. He talks about his on and on and on and on and on and so the damage.

he's not going to stand and watch that happened. He's gonna do some of the stuff that he didn't twenty. Sixteen when he was like a looming by heartily to get will require Dandan interrupting you, nothing wrong wrong. Ready to have her jailed in all kinds of crazy stuff. I just think it'll be it might be a little bit more frantic more off. Putting I guess for the audience, but No way he's going to let that happen because you keep getting that. Can you imagine we we seen him in town all formats. Can you imagine Donald Trump and it's all setting he's not at the po I am always with a bunch of screaming fans at an airport hangar. You know now he's there on the same level as everybody. They expect him to look you in the eye. spectrum to be somewhat truthful That's what they know. Lotto a politician or doing a camera is another thing that wider up a family Europe say announced he's right in front of you sing house. As regards the time one thing the other moderator into entered demean and the little your opponent,

an average amount. I saw it in the last ten or, as you mentioned, an ordinary American asked out on a question that he hates and doesn't like the premise of the question. He has no choice but to be civil cordial in response to write what all this is true, even as You know as quickly as possible will pivot away and talk about himself. Her. You know talk about those LEO those men mystical allow are people out there say trunk did the best. Do you know where this kind of thing it's it's not provide another Opportunity for bite into make inroads into the weird thing in all of the stuff operate. Is that the income The president of the United States has to run like a challenger he's behind in all of the poles. In many of the key swing states which way you look at this by any kind of objective measure. He either is it making progress or is falling behind so he's gotta? Do something he's gotta, be the moving party and in item or format to which he is spectacular. Will you not suited for reasons we just discussed

can be really really hard to change. The narrative. Did you think of the substantive format of debates needs to change. Is it? Is it really possible to cover six seven, eight different issues and topics in the space of ninety minutes some people suggested. I saw one suggestion that, given the time or living in there should have been an entire debate devoted just to the pandemic. To get an idea, what people's plans are and what their thoughts are, some make any sense or does it then give short shrift sought to some other issues? Nonetheless, That's right. They would give short shrift to the other issues, but the theory would be that if you ve got three debates lets you, the time a little bit more wisely and let's get thematic on them, so that you can get me damn. You know, as as with many things in life, you have to sacrifice a breath for depth, but this is One of those cases where depth is really call for to me. I would say why on climate change,

one or national security and by force of of reality, one on the pandemic and then make the argument that we should do that. You know to me he'd, like What's my beyond me that we should do that or or you could, you could split the baby right? You could say that this need ninety minute debate at least one hour he's is gonna be devoted to the pandemic and then remaining half hour will throw you know that don't I'll throw in some other extremely important issues like you know, housing or immigration or racial justice. Ah, I think that I would be the right way to do it. You know I mean I, if you had a cluster of foreign policy related ones, for the role of the president. S commander in chief, that would sort of makes So maybe you throw trade in with foreign policy again confided to sixty out of eighteen minutes or sixty eight of ninety minutes there are. There different ways to do it, but any

that could get us to more depth, meaning that just an exchange of insults and talking points would be not only preferable, but I think necessary. You know because the pay Damn it can be the facts. Keep shifting you know it. You talk about it in two minutes. You know I mean the interim Blemmyes literally. The information changes every week would also allow Trump to get away with having a super. Shallow understanding of any issue True you know I mean I mean I can talk for two minutes about pretty much anything privilege, happy people find out with wonder and one that I doubt no, not at all happy but look, look Jack, something you did last night, he said you didn't say we got lots of ventilators and other protective equipment to everybody in a timely way. He says a lot of guns. There's, including some who don't white me say that I did it there s a lot here. They said that, but maybe they're lying, maybe they're wrong there, maybe they're trying to Gary favor get maybe the currying favour with you because of your fragile ego and in any event People are in the Roman, don't matter,

What you did We get to see a lot more that unfortunately well, it's finally happened in the world is opening up again and were hearing the word normal being tossed around a lot more. But after the year we ve had truly feeling normal is going to take some time and a little bit of work

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All part of my talk space is the number one online therapy platform to help you sort through any issue match with a licence therapist when you gonna talk spaced out, come and get one hundred dollars off your first month with a promo code priest. That's hundred dollars off. When you use code preach a tax base, dot com. Two in the middle of the election. I stop saying that the election is coming up the elections in November. Thirdly, the ashes now hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people have already voted many millions to come. So in the time I have, let me ask you about how some things may impact the result of the elections or first people do not appreciate and an overview weird under sleep. You are a lawyer by training journalists, and I say that with great respect. As a fellow lawyer, there was a nomination to the Supreme Court minutes ago, but it seems like it was a long time ago. You have you, how do you think the nomination of Aimee Coney Bear? It will affect the outcome of the vote, people's enthusiasm for voting either for Trump or for

do you think it makes any differences at awash, but it does make a difference and I would not have been disappointed us. I was a little surprised, but that's why I'm in the news business I liked being surprised that happens the union to separate. I thought that it would be a classic case of all of the Republicans coming home that is sometimes divided republican coalition off comes together around the idea of nominating serve it if justice is for a host of different reasons, some of them cultural Lou, but the reality is. They know that as a party that holes unpopular positions, on abortion. I mean. If you look at the Poli, most people want RO first, his way to stay as it is. Most people want some kind of gun control and play most people want some regulation on big industry, most people, We want a lot of things that the Republican Party is who is opposed to, so they re to a minority strategy, and I thought that it was going to come together for them and they all say. Oh even if we like Trump, we ve got to have the Supreme Court in order to advance the different parts of what the republican coalition

Once surprisingly enough that doesn't seem to have happened. All the polling both before and after the nomination suggest that damn that's more energized by the nomination, then Republicans our meeting Democrats are are more frightened by what this could mean. then republicans are energized by what this could mean, and you know you look at every piece of the democratic coalition. If you're environmentalist, oh boy, You know this looks like there's, gonna be looser regulation and industries gonna run berserk. If you're into voting rights mean as an african American. To a single issue voter when it comes to voting rights and that doesn't look to promising on things like affirmative action that it meant a lot to me personally. That doesn't look so good on and on and on down the line, including, of course a woman's right to choose include,

pre existing conditions in defending the affordable care, actin and generalized health care for that's affordable for most people is. It just looks like she's gonna, be a disaster, and a lot of Democrats will up to that. It's not normally a part of what holds Democrats together, but it seemed to be falling in place. This time again, I'm surprised to see it, but I've seen enough Paul's, including from Fox NEWS too just a that's exactly what's gonna happen, and so I think it's gonna be worse than a wash. I think it's gonna probably help democratic candidates. Amsterdam, financially, all the money. That's when pouring in what has he ever another indicator right? They sit act. Loop broke record's, not just of nomination, but, like the hour of denominations announced, so so yeah, it's it's, they put them put wind it. You know what one of these one of those basic political rules is don't put within your opponent sales and frankly, I think, if them

read out and brought it up at the debate on much your present Trumpeton wood mentioned. It think it's working out the way he had expected. How worried were we be the? How worried are you about how the thing is gonna play play out on November? Third and afterwards, what people people expect, given the disparity in voting voting by mail and voting voting by voting voting in person, Democrat Republican Republican may maybe looking like he's leading in many many places and nationally that evening likely declare Victor How were actually be about I'll use the phrase a theft of the election year? Maybe we would be, I greatly worried. I am greatly greatly worried. I mean I seen a what what he's got to do really a signal this and has already started the process? gonna converge in competence into in the public eye on malevolence and political bias, meaning New York, which has a crappy election system in a hopelessly

inept board of elections. I know people and like people who work there, but I've got to tell the truth. As I see it, for example, its breaking news is we're talking one hundred thousand absentee battles were sent to the wrong addresses in Brooklyn you get it absolutely Balin and maybe somebody else's name on it as your neighbors name on it completely screwed up they have. They had a noble contract with incompetent vendor and it happens all the time- and I am sure if you keep pulling on the string, we're gonna find out that incompetent vendor probably made some political contributions and it's just please mask, but it's not tended to swing the election in one direction or another, but that is how Trump is going to portray it, and that is going to be how any we just go state by state, because every every state has the you know some problem, with male imbalance. You know it's hard to run an election. We D mobilise every

for years and then have to re mobilise using in many cases, volunteer, labour or underpaid labour or Spain multi seasonal labour that only comes round on an election sees it end. I am greatly worried by be no because the only that will kill me election for sure if people dont think it was honest people don't believe that it was honest and do you know genuine doubt in a hurry? You know I don't know what it is, but a certain proportion of the electorate will mean that the election might as well not have happened. If people believed that it was fair. And don't fair believed that it was accurate and it offers a play right into the strategy that tromp has already laid out, which is that you don't convince a critical portion of the that it wasn't a fair election and then throw into the courts or throw it to the house

the representatives or some other form under which he is more likely to prevail, do expect us to be the high turnout election in modern times. Yes, yes that's good! That's they would write a kind of sort of sites if it follows a trend. It follows a trend in old so mean one level it's like yes did. It was is probably going to happen anyway. Formation age it damn well ought to. Since we can all get messages out at the stroke of a keep went home in ITALY, a couple of clicks on your keyboard. You could send out a message of hundred thousand people, so so bureau, that's that's a good friend, I think if people are coming out for the wrong reasons, armed with motives and narratives information that is utterly false, impossibly manipulated by hostile foreign interests. then it's not such a good thing. So I'm hoping for a record breaking honest out of actual citizens based on full it for me

Who do you put all those cabbie outsiders? It tells you that we ve got a real problem. But New York City for a moment and how the city is doing in the midst of a pandemic. There's this debate in some people are saying, but here citizen trouble, lotta people have left, there's gonna be a problem with revenue because it may turn out, may taxes can be paid and lots of businesses are shuddered and once it gets cold, it's likely what's gonna happen with them. run industry, which is one of the life blood industries of New York, and there are others who say and by the way, the same time. Maybe this is absurd, maybe it's not the president. And his administration have designated in Europe to be an anarchist city which I was not laugh and gives me some sense of pride But then there are others who say you know, you're being silly. Nick New York is the most resilient place on earth. Look at what happened after nine eleven. The city is great, that you have a wonderful piece.

That euro recently and you quote, I had not heard the school before you quote John Updike and left his and you say you understand the fierce allegiance of people to New York who live in New York said. The late writer John UP was talking about folks. Like me, when he famously noted quote the true New Yorkers secretly believes that people living anywhere else have to be in some sense kidding that's true, the ordinary historic city in trouble, or is it not? We are However, we are in trouble. We are in trouble because you know that there are trend lines that are all going in the wrong direction. We are losing population, that's what that the column that yours adding who you know was really intended to try and flag for fur. For the city. We are lost, population. Florida now has more people. The New York that's likely to change even further in the wrong direction after this next senses than when the numbers are. Finally, in an alarm people are new Yorkers.

And there are very tangible, logical financial, and other reasons for people to do exactly that, and so we haven't inhospitable culture, some would say: the business culture, someone say it just the overall general living exe Some people would say is the quality of life of the street are always dirty whatever it is that the problem that we can't fix, that is the one that enables us to understand that our problems in that we have to address them and that our leadership has to address them and what we over and over and over again his fall into that kind of Updike attitude. And again I understand because I share it up I was born in Harlem opener Rochelle came back. The first minute I could, when I got out of college we're ever since, and I don't care what happens. You knows year, four nine eleven I was here for the first World WAR send a bombing and ninety ninety three, I bet you're through flood storms in, do you know,

Well done the streets have a car broken into back in the battle days. Raising my kid here, and I literally couldn't think of a place that I would rather be, and we take that attitude in? We misuse it because we say Everybody feels that way. Everybody wants to be a New York because they want not true. I've been out. There was a there's, a big chunk of time Centuries really were everybody wanted to be in London right and they that age, came and went in but I wanted to be a New York, you know I mean there is nothing matter to me than to go to a city that history is kind of passed by and it's because of the choices that people made. Actively in indefinitely the leadership? So, I don't know how many more clues you have to put in front of people to have, I understand that it's like we bleeding people from the city, it's our greatest natural resource, but it's not infinite. It's not inexhausted.

And is not endlessly renewable. You ve, you gotta, make this a place where people want to be and how well you know, if you what what will have the numbers you know for sure, by the middle of the eleven this decade, rights or by twenty Twond, five, it should be clear who has moved out and why? But as far as we can tell the people who are moving to other states because its words, thank you, you know you relocated overseas, there's nothing you can do about that, but the people who are, moving to other states. The one thing I can tell you for sure is that I looked at the numbers for floor, You will pay a lot less in the way of taxes. If you just move to Florida like you is a comparison if you starting accompany state business, tat The New York state, seven percent state business tax in Florida think is five percent four percent income. acts in New York You know whatever it is. I pay whatever they tell me to pay. Lord at zero zero

I mean you know, that's that's its connachar to compete with zero homes and sewed eat up in every other. Sphere of life. We would say you know whether a medical co pay he's just a small amount or the amount that you pay a parking meter. We say even a small amount can induce a certain kind of behaviour that we want to see and some I want it the taxes knew your state, attitude: is it doesnt matter it doesn't matter. that people can move to, like you know, four or five adjacent states, they had moved. You know too in a heartbeat Jersey, which is the number to place the people moved away either. Go to Florida, the New Jersey, its arrived your drive and Rita anybody. I think the taxes are gonna be really low over there to dislike. You will live in New Jersey but it is easy to get to Jersey. It's easy to get to remarked. If Europe State, you know it is

you gotta Canada? You know if you're going north, why stop there? You don't need, so I don't get it attitude and I'm trying to wake up some of these people and say: look this idea, The other thing is pre. Is that these What is, I know them very, very well. I becoming available, time. I know a lot of them personally at hand, it is laziness at an excuse, does you, gonna be tough to make it into your what is an excuse for you, not picking up the damn garbage. I don't want to hear this stuff about how you gonna be tough. He ok, I gotta meter, but I don't want to be tough. What do I want to pay my taxes that you charge me more than in most states, and I actually expect you to keep the streets. You know clean and safe. and have schools actually educate. My kid like that. Don't tell me about in a group tough in some sort of in a fable about New York is putting up with happy services and liking. It that's not gonna work

should a work people voting with their feet in their wallets. Do you explain to people how unpopular a mayor build applause? You is evident, why they don't like him. They don't like it's. What am I mean no side? I'm illustrate this with a declaration. No love lost between me and notably as you and many people know that what were you going, I wouldn't let that's what's make. This legitimate is crystal clear you. instigated the and you came close deciding in my opinion that you may be, should have been indicted, but you chose not to I have a very good one and that I'm not coming down. I mean look, you re use words. That is my show. Do I the cut off your my young man. You gave me that I had never occur to me before. All we have to do is exit the zoo, it is easier than ever. You throw hey era. Lusatia go out

do. You wanna, go, join and anti tax protest. so answer. My answer, my question: why one popular the idea? one level what I actually do know the answer and I've I've intimated this to the merest, but this is the first time a wing it out. So with somebody wants to explain this to the mare one of his aids can haven't. Listen to this. nominal you're, describing first of all, is that the mere is less popular than his own policies, which is the opposite of normally what you would find. Normally, what you find is that people say I really don't like dispersants policies. You know I kind of really don't like those policies but politicians himself, you know, what's the nice, lady, nice guy, I like them, you know it came to me. Urge they shake hands are like the jokes. They tell whatever it might be cause most politician. These are very good at being light for some reason, this mare has reversed. in a way that, like him again, I've never seen where you ask people. Do you like universal Pre K O, yet we like that deal.

The affordable housing programme. Here we really like that. Do you, like the fairy system, has been building up station mouths year. We really like that. You, like his his bike lanes, is put in hundreds of miles of widely yea would like that to do. Though the Plaza now we hate that guy it's it's kind of the trick its were well, you know it's it's it's too bad in a way. You know him he's himself has made jokes about it. You know we have this thing where the political reporters in the political class get together and tell jokes on each other. We call it the inner circle dinner and he's he's in the Americans himself gets involved and he can he's on the joke. He understands that, on the other hand, he doesn't understand- and I I've brought it up with him. So many times it's a talk with him every week, as you know, we have this segment Monday's with the mare he does not value. what many many leaders take for granted, which is leading by example, so in MID March,

on the very same day that she announced New Yorkers all generally have to be closed down to defeat the pandemic. There Is that why you see a working out and explain to people why it? So it's such a big deal, whereas the Jim that he will now that the right way just fifty miles away from his taxpayer funded Mansion Gracie mention, so he has security detail drive him, I think, is actually that eleven miles back It was warm neighbourhood of park slope so that it can without it the whimsies, and you know, you would think that it's like always at the white as we want to be around the people, will sometimes people have tried to do, engage more political issues and the security detail, kind of shoes them away. Skirts lack clear what the hell is still but but but what is the point? I've I've said this. Do I myself almost exactly these were dislike. You know what Mr Mer, you can anywhere. You want and work out any. you want and that's fine, but don't lecture the rest of us if we're gonna make similar choices about being exe

options to what everybody acknowledges would be the best rule. I think everybody acknowledges the best thing to do would be to know, try and be consistent. You know, if you have the shadow the gym, shut it down for everybody. Don't waste taxpayer resources going halfway across the city to the gym. But if you want to make an exception for yourself, that's cool, just don't let me about when I make me the exception to your rule, and he just like he just doesn't get it. He just didn't get he he would reap so many benefits by leading by example. You know, which is things by the way, the Governor Cuomo Dust and there a lot of you, it's interesting, is just the adversaries of of the situation, with the plaza through a lot of people who really really really don't like the governor there, like style, they suspect, is politics, Are they don't even like his policies, but they like the way. He leads You know what he was doing. Those briefings when you know he he said to first responders, for example, is it

probably have seen do this. I travelled from reporter Rico after the hurricane, and I saw him save us to a bunch of first responders down there and workers. He says I How can I ask you to do anything that I wouldn't do personally myself and it's it's a great thing to here and that not enough leaders, I think public or private sector say that I won't ask you to do anything. I wouldn't do myself were in this together. Follow me, I'm gonna, take you where I'm I'm. So from also willing to go we're mare who never says that, and in fact we called on gets dismissive and rude. It concerns this is an important and this trivia and I'm trying to run a great city, and I don't know you know I'm not gonna there he is like he says anything except. What people want to hear what people want to hear is I'm an elite

example I'll do better next time set so that that's that's why you get a bad rap. He gets a backdrop. I want ass. You woke up other things, but before I do that, I did want to note for the record that you were the first guest to use the word adverse Think, that's, which is so great that I don't really know. There's always it seemed to mean the same thing like reverse angel How can I drank contract positive? and I have never spent the time. So I am sure work, as you are, gentlemen and a scholar used correctly, but but dont think you to slip enough. In the long term that I'm here and I'm not gonna both notice and make a comment on it I got all right. I got a fifteen year old who study for the eighty english exam, seven we're all in this together free releasing by example. That could also be on- and I guess, I'm a p on a math test to target. That's true, better

I see the guy's a mathematical, do it anyway, it's good era. Louis thanks for coming under, shows real treat any time. Thank you. My conversation with ever lose continues for members of the cafe insider community. Try out the membership free for two weeks, a cafe dot com, slash insider you'll, get access to full archive of exclusive content, including the weekly park. asked. I co host within Milgram the cyberspace pact, As with John Carlin United Security Package, oh hosted by LISA Monaco and can wasting audio essays by Elly Homesick and me and, more again, that's capita com. Slash insider I want to end the episode this week by talk. About someone that we lost in the last number of days and that's the newspaper and publishing giant Sir Harold Evans, who was oppressed

friend and a source of journalistic passion and literary brilliance for millions of people over the course of his legendary career in recent years. He became an unlikely supporter and mentor to me, Harry's wife, article Tina Brown format, vanity, fair, the new Yorker and the daily beast ass, his passing in an email to friends and associates along stands out from Shakespeare's Henry. The fifth act for a large as universal like the sun. His liberal, I D, give to everyone thawing cold fear that mean and gentle all behold, as may unworthiness define a little touch of Harry in the night. Parry, as he was known to his friends held for men, Esther and was raised in a working class family After serving the royal Airforce after World WAR, two, he became a business reporter back in nineteen sixty seven, Harry became editor of the London Sunday times in the nineteen seventies. He played an instrumental role in peace.

sizing the flood scandal. That's the german tranquilizer that was responsible for birth malformations in ten thousand babies during the prior to kids, Harry defied, an order from the british high court and pushed the story of corporate malfeasance into the public eye The settlements were victims and help shift free speech laws to make less risky. The type of investigative reporting in which he engaged in the early nineties eighties after a contentious battle for control of the times, with eventual new found a Rupert Murdoch carrying Tina headed to New York around us in time. The Tina took over the new Yorker Harry became president in public of Random House, USA very dramatically. look up the literary world during the nineties during that time, Since Harrington also became famous for their literary parties, which featured incredible collections of world luminaries in two thousand for Harry was needed by her Royal Highness Queen, Beth, I got to know, Herring Tina,

the time that I was united attorney. What Harry asked me to do an interview with him for Reuters, then do. I was fired and thought about writing a book Harriet offered me advice welcoming into their home. that remains touching to me to this day. Harry spend a lot of time asking me about the book. Given me advice about the book and providing all sorts of council and port and then, when I sent them an early draft harry and Tina were kind enough to offer to throw me my launched a party in April twenty nine He was a person who knew every literary figure in the country, if not the world, and he took the time in a way that meant a lot to me to support this first time. Author Harry Evans was fiercely protective of journalistic integrity. Here is a parting word is, Harry at the International Press Institute in twenty ten in a ceremony honouring sixty heroes of the World Press at every turn,

My journey list, invents story. Fabricates quote, elevates a personal conviction over a professional curiosity. He betrays a dozen names on the roll. Every time a news organization puts excessive profit, though excellence it betrays every night. We all every time a journalist maliciously sets out to destroy a reputation discharge. He is almost all these heroes and every time, a journalist in a country with a free press protected by law and tradition abuses that freedom by personal words as a or political mitt, manipulation or betrayal, of something of national importance and security. He betrays all those around the world who struggle for half the freedoms and who seek to liberate,

from their territories. By saying look at these examples, freedom works there all betrayed when a journalist in a free country does not live to the highest examples. Harry was one of the best newsman we ve ever seen, and we all should heed his warnings as we continue to force through this difficult time. Rest in peace, the legendary Sir Harold Evans well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned thanks to my guest era, Louis If you like what we do rate and review the show an apple pie casts or wherever you listen. Every positive review helps new listeners finally show send me:

questions about news politics, injustice, tweet them to me, prepare our with the hashtag asked pre. call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight, that's six, six, nine, two, treat or you can send an email to stay tuned. A cafe dot com, stay tuned is presented by CAFE studios. Your host is prepared secular producer. Is tomorrow separate the senior produced? is animal Waller. The senior producer is David TAT ashore and the cafe team is Matthew. Billy David calendar, SAM overstating no, as that Wiener Jake, Kaplan Calvin, Lord Jeff eyes him and Chris boiling Sean Walsh and Margo Mally. Our music is by Andrew Dust on pre baronne statehood.