From CAFE, and the Vocs media podcast network. Welcome to stay tuned unprepared I won't be remembered as a as an advocate for the urban for as an advocate for or people of color in the South Bronx in public housing someone who will never forgot where you came from that, even when I left the South Bronx, the South Bronx overlapping, that's Richie Torres he's afresh. when congressmen from New York representing most of the South Bronx and it just thirty. Three years old he's awry star in the Democratic party tourism. History last November, when he Fellow Newark, representative Monday Jones became the first openly a black man ever elected to Congress in its first year on Capitol Hill Torres, has become an outspoken advocates on issues of poverty, housing,

and mental health has also emerged. As a staunch defender of Israel, the position it has garnered some criticism from his fellow progressive. As talks to me this week about his political philosophy, poverty and why he supports Israel. That's coming up stay tuned. This So it is brought to you by Clavijo the company. That's reinventing email and text, marketing for E commerce, business owners, Clavijo puts creators makers and doers back in control of their marketing with an easy to use data driven platform. That does exactly what it says it can do. Deliver simple, personalized, email and text messages. Your customers at just the right moment, helping you make more money with clavijo you'll, build better relationships with your custom,

by engaging and exciting them get started for free, a k, L Av. I why oh dot com slash vocs today support for this podcast comes from Verizon. business Verizon business, unlimited plants, unlimited data, no overages and more built right for business, with the speed of rice and five g, give rise in business, unlimited plans from his lows: thirty dollars per line, visit, Verizon Doc slash business, slash plants per month with five on business. Unlimited start includes paper free billing without open, select, smartphone agreement, discounts, taxes fees in terms apply five g nationwide available in twenty seven hundred plus cities on most Verizon, five g devices find shelter, white band available only in parts of select cities, folks. I hope you been listening to the newest package from CAFE now and then co host. Vystar Historians, Heather Cox, Richardson and Joanne Freeman tonight, Thursday July 15th, at six hundred and thirty p dot m eastern time, it'll be a live taping of the next.

of their podcast it'll. Be stream, live on cafes, Facebook to RSVP, go CAFE, dot com, slash live, and if you miss it, you can catch that episode of now and then, wherever you get your podcast next, we now, let's get to your questions, This question comes at an email from Evelyn who writes, I hope you can on the hearing regarding the lawsuit in Michigan I have listened to a good bit of it today, in my unqualified opinion, the complaint Legal team is using a defence, much like the president and his cronies, use in the court of public opinion It reminds me of the because I said so reason my parents used to give when they didn't feel like arguing. So you call yourself on coal try to render an opinion. What your opinion is pretty good here, Evelyn, of course, you're talking about the hearing that took place on Monday of this week, relating to a sanctions issue against Sidney Powell.

And then would and some other trumps election where's, who brought a series of lawsuits around the country, including in Detroit in federal court, over alleged voter fraud. Election seeking to overturn those elections As you know, by now every single one of those suits say perhaps one depending on how you consider it failed and failed miserably. Em as for the trade are seeking sanctions against from selection lawyers on the grounds that they didn't obey ethics rules, in bringing those suits, and so the preceding lasted a pretty long time. I think upwards of six hours. So congratulations on getting through a lot of it and the basic question that the District court judge turbulent apart, ass was quote, shouldn't attorney be sanctioned for his or her failure to withdraw allegations. The attorney came to know we're on true is that sanctions able behaviour? The judge also sort of answered your own question. At one point in the hearing when

said quote, I don't think I've ever seen an affidavit that make so many leaps. This is really fantastical. So my question to council here is how could any of you, as officers of the court, present this after David, the judge also made the point that the lawsuit and the advent of its attached to the lawsuit should have been withdrawn, when he electoral College confirmed, binds victory on December fourteenth of last year. The judge asked: why did the plaintiffs not recognise this law, HU as mood and dismiss it on that date and, as you point out, Evelyn time after time after time, the lawyers had no answer. With the possible exception of Linwood, who said, PETE Italy and somewhat humorously to my ear, but he had nothing to do the drafting the complaint He said it again and again I nothing do the drafting the complaint. I was unevolved with it in any way raises the question. Of course Why was his name on the complaint had enough for it to be withdrawn? There was a debate back and forth about whether or not would have given permission to use his name and then there was another

question about whether not Linwood had in some other proceeding in some other jurisdiction in some other court had both. He had been involved in the Detroit Litigation all was a bit of a circus and a bit of a mess. To make a couple of comments, I think it's clear that the judge will impose some kind of say and here you could be a monetary sanction. It could be referral to bar authorities and the irony here is the Donald Trump away, with lying again and again and again public forums at rallies on television in print interview. and there was not much anybody could do about it and his lawyers may actually face some penalty. For engaging that kind of lying, or MR sanitation by omission for doing the same thing Court. We already see nobody Giuliani trumps. One crumbs lawyers has had his bar licence suspended in two different jurisdictions in here you have in wood and Sydney, power and others by the way. The other achieving is some the rubbish

nations made by Sidney Power and the other lawyers in the election cases were so outrageous and so far fetched the Trump team itself distance themselves from Sidney Power the red flag. If you ever someone before but important, I want to mention again a distinction. Joyce vans and I talked about on the CAFE insider podcast, and that is. It is one thing to make your creative far fetched legal arguments to try to get the lot of some claim that you have it maybe to claim, has ever been made before articulated in a particular way before. That's probably generally gonna be sectional, so claims They seem to go against settled law or statute or constitutional provision. Although they may be sorted out of love field. Generally speaking, the Sequence of that is you just lose your case, on the other hand, was being focused on here is time after time after time, ff Joel assertions were being made in affidavits, and otherwise there were not just not backed up but, as a judge pointed out

Again. There was literally no vetting of claims it on their face should have been challenged by good faith lawyers and that didn't happen, by the way by the end of the hearing, Sidney Powell, who, good standing with his judge and with his court double down on this, actions that were made. She said quote we, practice law with the highest standards, and then she says this is kind of remarkable shows she isn't how to read the room quote. We would file these same complaints again. We welcome and opportunity prove our case, no court, as ever does that opportunity and quote that seems to have been an error. so the original crack indoors did not do a great job in representing down trumps campaign and the lawyers. The crack and lawyers hired also did not do a great job in connection with this proceeding earlier this week, and browse my fear of common of all was a tweet posted by lawyer, Bradley MOSS, who wrote

for all of the lawyers in the hashtag crack and hearing o the co rapporteur a drink. Multiple drinks. End quote: discussion comes in an email from Helene question. Can you talk about subpoenas? I thought by definition they were not optional, but during the demonstration they seem to be consequences for ignoring. But what about now everyone talks about Democratic Congress in their subpoena power. Can they? actually be ignored by Republicans and even Trump. What are the consequences? Why call it a subpoena if it can be enforced but leave those

three questions have been asked for a number of years now and I think part of the confusion is the people conflating different kinds of subpoena. So ordinarily, even like people understand that in a criminal investigation or criminal case when a subpoena is issued that there can be a basis for the recipient of the subpoena to make a motion was known as a motion to quash to say the subpoena is in some way faulty or doesn't apply to them or his own wrist. And then I get to Juda cated by a court, and the court decides whether or not the subpoena is enforceable. In almost all cases, it would be, and then the consequence for the person who does not with a subpoena even after that is contempt of court which carries with it a visit to jail, and there have been lots and lots of famous cases, including those involving controversially journalists who have decided to justify a subpoena from the Department of Justice or from some other prosecutor, and they sometimes go to jail for

So that's? Why a lot of people ass wise that happening in the cases that you are referring to subpoenas? It are issued in criminal cases that are technically from grandeur rates that are convened by prosecutors, but just described, and then their congressional subpoena Venus, although they carry the same name, have a different kind of flavour to them. First, when congressional subpoenas are issued to the executive branch, There has been a long, long, history of back and forth, and negotiation and accommodation between two co. Equal branches of government is not like Noah Federal Grand jury trying to subpoena a witness in a securities fraud case. This isn't a ten in the kinds of cases you're referring to what Congress is trying to get information from the White House or from an executive agency. in their often our real defenses, with respect to the scope of the information being requested executive privilege, deliberate process,

knowledge and all of those things had been asserted by white houses and administrations of both parties. Republicans and Democrats now some assert them more in good faith and others, but everyone asserts them. unlike in criminal cases, courts are really loathe to get involved to be the third comical branch of government, mediating a fight between the other two comical branches of government? They don't like to do it Sir Robert and others have pointed out over and over again that, generally speaking, Some kind of accommodation reached in the investigation that I talked about on the show before with respect to politicization of the justice back in two thousand seven, the Judiciary Committee I served served a number of subpoenas on executive branch officials and former executive branch officials, and there was a back and forth in currently under terms are mutually agreeable. Some testimony was taken that we have also seen, even in recent times,

happened with the former White House Council down again, so that's one point about how their different there just sort of a different nature and fights a little bit different and then, second, even in a case where there is no excuse for non compliance with a subpoena, does not really the same enforce a mechanism in the criminal case. It would have contempt of court. There are but a U S: marshals, who have guns, Kerr jails that exist and so you can incarcerate somebody for contempt of court, for defiance of a subpoena no one congressional side- there's been some talk about this, but can of Congress is a bit more toothless, then contempt. Of course, I am not aware they can as the House of Representatives of the Senate. Even has a facility like a jail to put some one who unlawfully devises appeal. also is not clear. What procedure that would follow? Who go out and do it is something the capital police officers can do certain around can do it just a very complicated tricky messy thing.

There has not been done at least in long long long time, if ever see, I understand, your frustration and I understand a lot of people's frustration congressional subpoenas. Kind of animal is a different kind of fight in there's, not much enforcement mechanism. This question comes at an email from Andrea who writes me recently graduated from law school and I couldn't be prouder- There are zero lawyers in our family, so he's a true pioneer is a job starting in September and is currently studying for the bargain. You actually left his apartment to come back home to study he spends just about every day studying and as a test draws nearer. Tell his dress level is getting higher. I'm hoping you can offer some advice on how to stay, calm and confident in the face of this impossible to know everything. High stakes, test, love your show and thanks in advance. If you can offer some support,

sincerely. James is mom, but first of all Andrea congratulation to James. Congratulations to you. You have a family lawyer for the first time or it s very very soon. The good news is you ve already indicate in your email that James is doing the right thing. He studying it takes a lot of study That was true in my day. I assume that still true in modern times bar exams, probably changed a little bit since when I was in high school couple other observations, and maybe this give some comfort you don't you. To it as a impossible to know everything. High stakes, testing, that's half right impossible to know everything short there are lots of things on the bar exam that people in take classes in law school and you just gotta, learn Whatever service you use to get tutored on, question the bar examined topics on the bar exam. You just gotta. Second, up and study with respect to high stakes, I have a slightly different view of that. First of all, the most important thing to remember about the bar exam. In obviously, everyone knows this. Its past

He'll, unlike the USA, tee the OECD of the OECD or or other exams try to do really really well on. Someone said to me, I think, when I was approaching the bar exam many years ago, the key to victory is to be the person who passes by one point. It doesn't matter if you crushed the exam review. If you barely past using I'll say is, I feel, terrible, When I came out of the bar examined. It took some time to find out the results in. I was pretty good student throughout school. In graduate school, and so I was used to coming out of an exam feelingly, I got in most of the questions right. I did not feel that way after the bar exam escort anything like they were back in my day. You have, to get many many questions wrong and still comfortably pass the bar exam. So James takes. It doesn't feel good about it. The worry about it, I felt the same way and you can still passing in the final point lawmakers? Let's it's not make or break absolute support want to pass the bar exam, unlike some other things for which there

sequences of failure, a pre terrible in most cases and with respect to most employer? if you fail of our examine the first time, you can take it again in a few months and no harm your foul lots of smart people in the world, including the graduated from great law schools in force at the top of the class who have failed, the bar exam you don't want to, How do you want to take it again, of course, but I just don't think it's high stakes, as everyone makes it out to be so James. Good luck! I have every confidence you're going to do well and if you would Andrea keep us post to all the other people by the way in the country who are taken the bar exam soon. I wish you luck as well,

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that's the k, L Av, I, while dot com, Slash box. My guess this week is Richie Tourist he's a freshman congressmen from New York representing the South Bronx his congressional does. It is by some estimates. The poorest in America Torres got an early start in politics when he was due to the New York City, council and twenty thirteen. He was the younger ever elected in New York City officials, often aligned with progressive Democrats in Washington tourist treads his own path. I'm joined by the congressmen to talk about the Bronx Mental Health and how to address poverty in our country. Congressmen, rigid Torres thanks for making the to be on the show. It is an honour to be here so I want to thank you for a long time. I get my first question. I guess: is Europe freshmen, as they say in the House of representatives? Does it ever

Feel weird still to be referred to as congressman does and I spent most of my life in poverty, so the experience of becoming a member. Congress is surreal on its own If you had said to me that I would become a member Congress, doing it she's disease outbreak and witness an insurrection against Eu Capital, doing electoral college account and then vote swing you're, not going president. All of that would happen the first two weeks and what it said that sounds like fiction bad fiction? It sounds like bad fix, It sounds like that picture. we joined on me when I was a Congress soon when I came home from orientation, press and orientation. And I had dinner with my mother and she This is the first time I'm having over the congressperson, and I put a smile on your face, this is your first elected office. You remember the New York City Council. How congressmen

sound and feel compared to council member. It matters you matter when you remember of Congress, you matter far more far more people. and you deal with a much wider range of issues not only locally here in New York City, but nationally and internationally, in your part of them ass, one of the most exclusive clubs in the world, the most powerful legislation in the world, You in the history of the United States Congress there about a hundred and thirty my fellow members and about a hundred and sixty As members, and none of them will hopefully also be to you in total, I was sworn in January. Third, so every time I set foot on the house, for I cannot help but feel the weight of history on my shoulders. To recap, as people may know, you're the first ever openly gay afro latino member of cars

Does that matter to you and is that matter to your constituents and if so, how much it Everything, but it certainly matters you don't I, I take pride and belonging to the democratic clauses in the house. Seventy percent of the democratic progress consist of people of color. woman and members of the age of easy, huge immunity. I think we are a quarter said increasingly is every bit as diverse as America itself, I think it's in our interest to have a government that ass, the Mosaic of America as see racial multi, ethnic Ogilvy, Ciccu, inclusive democracy and its importance have Americans from everyone of lights. I see themselves represented in government to feel inspired to run for public office themselves, You know something you said struck me, given the

Diversity of the democratic caucus do think it Naturally, the case that its harder for Nancy Policy, to organise and led her caucus than it is for the Republicans to lead there's. Yes, I am I would say a genuine political party is much much more unwieldy than a cold. Personality around Donald, some sort, it takes them easier to lead. His lungs are approaching the people who are not in that cop legless She's exemption. But for the old A majority of Republicans. Their operating principle seems to be absolute obedience, to their Lord and save your Donovan. I've known as you want parochial question before I get your congressional district. people may not be aware and will take. How about some city politics later as well, because New York is very important links. People like you and me think so,. The city council did not used to be subject to term limits until fairly recently in Europe's history term limits a good thing or a bad thing. I haven't you You, the legislature,

certainly should have more terms in the executive you asked myself in others should come away when I like that, so should learn the art of exiting basically viper. Shadow, my former self, in a few decades then I want to move on, I now to create space for the next generation of leadership to emerge, so There is a balance to be struck between institutional them memory and Poverty and a new generation of leadership was everything in when I worked in the Senate. There was a lot of chafing on a part of younger members of that body because The way to get senorita waiting at a chairmanship, the we'd have influence was simply the passage of time and the length of your tenure As opposed to ever skills you might have were energy, might have done Folks, I put you in that category or thirty. Three. and without naming names get people in trouble with the speaker, the Azeri

the collective frustration about how aside whence are made and about how younger members of Congress wield power in and how the organised around seniority and age There certainly vibration with a system that is simply were seniority, regardless of merit. One would expect a fresh remember like me to be critical. other seniority based system in I, after referring to Congress as a german policy, one Colleagues, may the observation to me that all but two of the democratic Committee chairs selected by the partners are at above the age of seventy. so. There is a shocking lactose each diversity in in the committee, leadership of the democratic clause shifting from answered anecdotally haven't an analysis.

But there's you there's a number of seemingly young members who had been recently elected in twenty twenty one, twenty eighteen, it are you aware of there's a trend towards younger you, dear attempts to previous job opportunities for new members of Congress, so examples myself. I was appointed as the vice chair of the Homeland Security Committee and I am the first for representative in weekly meetings with the speaker. These weekly meetings are referred to as crescendo, so a freshman class has the same seat at the table as the congressional black workers in the congressional spanish workers and the other powerful boxes. In the? U S, Congress there have been attempts to ensure that freshmen have a greater voice. In the decision making of the partners- and I am pleased with my ability to effectually change within the bodies, so you represent Europe's fifteenth district I've Bronx. Can you describe it's very interesting, desperate for lotteries and when I talk about and give you

chanced to explain to listeners what you're district is like. What the make up is and how you feel about it is that the South Bronx is often said to be the poorest congressional Disregard America. We are rounds, Europe racially concentrated bobbin, we would the earliest in the hardest. By coordinating more than five thousand bronze residents, Austria alone, and more than half the residents in the South Bronx pay more than half their income for their rent, and that's before you factor in the positive food and transportation utilities and health care. So to live in the Bronx is often to struggle to survive. To put on table and pay the rent and keep your families a flow the same time. I think of the South Bronx as the essential congressional forgets, the home of essential workers, put their lives at restoring the peak of the condemned cell

but the rest of the city could safely shelter in place I see it as my central mission to anyone that those essential workers wages for forcing women of color have a fighting chance at a decent and dignified life. You know when I wonder, primary Enshiu NOS twenty, twenty, publicly said at this moment belongs as much my mother is a destiny and that the Bronx of single mothers like mine, struggled and suffering sacrificed so that their children can have a better life, and so the Can I ask myself? Every warning is doing right by the essential workers and powerful mothers of the South Bronx. What's the racial and ethnic make of your district overwhelmingly lacking on African Marvin, there is a small population boats, mostly Lockheed on African American,

I've been among left. You knows it's mostly up. What are we gonna do and its historic leave would weaken the circuits becoming increasingly Dominican about the boy This long been assessed. Refinements to begin The twentyth century was a sanctuary for jewish immigrants in italian immigrants in irish immigrants and then, then we shall leave about being immigrants I now is To too many like you, immigrants surprise or people surprised to learn referring to vary. analyses that the poorest congressional district in the country is in New York City, And not someplace, like MRS A bureau, and so what you thought of as relatively more impoverished No because I represent a dense populated area with heavier concentrations of Soviet, worth noting that urban poverty is different from rural poverty, but you

spend much heavier concentrations of poverty in a dense. populated areas like the box, the South Bronx. What's the mood in your district with respect to how the government is dealing with problems perfectly covered, given their the make up of so many other folks, is essential to the covered response hopeful, even though people struggling people of all about President buying Democratic Congress about the american rest, No, the centrepiece of the american Rescue plan was the child. Tat spread it and no policy did more and would do more to lift the self runs out of poverty and the child tax credits, which child poverty by fifty percent. So the dominant mood is one of hopefulness. You have referred to your district as the Bible Belt of New York City when he mean by it

historically. So, even though, you think of New York City S, the progressive capital and as the birthplace of the If we take usable, rightful bent the stone Wall Uprising, the brow, had a long tradition of socially conservative Democrats who were vehemently anti, also be take you. I one of them, was a man by the name of a video seen he was my main of only when I ran for Congress in twenty twenty. He was known to be the voice and face I'm a phobia in New York, state politics and in eighteen ninety see said the gale and picks would be to the spread of AIDS. In two thousand eleven he was the only democratic in the state Senate in New York State Senate to vote against, quality and years ago instead said the city Council is controlled. homosexual ball Guy jokingly, replied, that's the most accurate than you ever said

like carrying member of the velvet last year, but despite odious views the convention Wisdom, how's, that with India Senior was wealth, is so to win the congressional season, the South Bronx, because in a brand name in bronze politics longer than I've been alive for a long time. That's true will want time he's been in China. and has a well wheels machine in the South, Bronx and People thought I was gonna lose by double digits now. I'll come was double digit, but but I won a double digits. I defeated Wouldn t s so decisively that I sent him into retirement and how to do that now, I endorse and telling my story. And even though in a people saw the electorate in the south. Bronx is much older.

the median voter is out or above the age of fifty five and two thirds of the electorate. Some mostly lobbying an african american woman and peoples of Europe, the political establishment took for granted That those voters would naturally gravitate word maybe a senior and I thought differently, I thought those voters would hunger for a new generation of leadership in the South Bronx. And would see in me their own child infringements. Would see me the environment of their highest hopes and aspirations for their own children and grandchildren. and my basic intuition about, the electorate, the South Bronx. Was vindicated by the? U very particular kind of district Therefore, in thirty five them round the country, some have similarities their proper similarities between your district and others in other parts of the country. But are we. it is unique

we state is unique, and I wonder how you think about this question that goes around in democratic circles, where there's a lot. Frustration and anger in some cases, contempt towards a democratic senator like Joe Mansion, who comes from Quickly, conservative state they went for Trump, I, like a million points and number in front of me workers in Cinema, from Arizona and they get. Size by Democrats for not being progressive enough? Something? respond and say well, look at whether from that's what they reflect? How do you think about them, and how do you think about this It is for you to you to the sort of politics, concerns of your own district. my criticism of the centre, and should another is not progressive, he's entails a holds whatever views he wishes is entitled to. sensibilities and views of his constituents.

My issue is that he is maintaining the status quo. I e the filibustered that the real democracy, that essentially disenfranchises our communities like mine,. nowhere is the abuse the filibuster Regis than on the subject of gun safety. I, in a rational worlds, every gun would be registered and safely stored. Every gun owner would be licensed, ensure And every time there would be subject to a back. But there's nothing rational about a political system. that enables one? U S, senator from US smaller than my congressional differ too. the buster gun safety at the expense of three hundred and thirty million Americans and you feel The filibuster on this issue is the most reach is more egregious. Even then, the filibuster with respect to voting rights

Alas, that, although in the case of voting rights, I fear that whatever we might pass, the Supreme Court is intent striking down, but egregious on several fronts. The pillow Austria has made the same. A graveyard for vote rights enforcement immigration reform, o gb teach you a quality and safety. Criminal justice reform you name issue. You name of cars and it has lightly died at the hands of the filibuster the mind of the structure of the dam. Of the Senate on its own is profoundly undemocratic. The Senate concentrates little, Power in a small subset of states Later we're all much more conservative than the rest the country has a sense of which there is systemic racism built into the very structure of the sea.

and that is taken to an extreme by the velvet. But you would rather have your mansion in the Senate than a republican, correct, of course, forest, but isolate he. He can represent his different without defending available, That sabotage is democratic government. unless he's made a determination- and I don't know- and I have had pulled in West Virginia unless he's made it- termination among others, that is Did the slowing down aspect of the filibustering, my vote by the wind, the substance? I agree with you who spoke to the Philippine I'm just trying to analyze his thinking in there now there? If he's made a determination that the constituent his state. We know on a hosting I believe a certain thing in on this: You believe, whether its principle, we're not or erroneous, or not, that the Philippines. Should remain that. isn't it in a sense, a reflection of the views of his state.

Or maybe he's like some people have suggested. You know occupying a particular Place in that state, as somebody who from time to time makes angry Democrats so that makes them more palatable to the overall the majority of conservatives industry. I don't know, but I just wonder sometimes how he thinks about and how other people should think about. It At the same to me centre a man, she has a misguided, romanticized vision of the fellow but as the last as hoped for by partisanship. The bulk of the film industry has not given us more by partisanship and given us nothing but gridlock It empowers the extremes right, any senator, no matter how extreme, in their views from filibuster, any piece of legislation can subjects any piece of legislation to a sixty vote, threshold and keep my view. No seven emission came out against each other one

was settled as one and is entitled to his view: menu put forward an alternative in good faith. Only Haven't rejected immediately by the Republicans I give if your republic, any you have the power to sabotage democratic legislation, you have no incentive to negotiate On an issue like voting rights, you call yourself a pragmatic, Progressive Yang, underlined progressive, surely be the enemy of progress and a new point to a figure who you put into that category. Ted Kennedy is he your principal political role, models he's one of the greatest legislators ever to certain history of the United States comes and what made him great and you and your mind. He was a pluralistic legislate, and even though he had happened, we held a progressive principles and convictions.

He was always able and willing to build coalitions in order to pass legislation. There are some people were Washington DC to be performers and then there are others who go to diesel to be policymakers and problem. Solvers and TAT Kennedy was the consummate policy, for he was the consulate pops up, and he to me, as the gold standard legislative acumen and the same can be said of of Lyndon Johnson. is there anyone in the house with whom you would not work and some principle there there are extremists on the right who were poor old yesterday, Marjorie telling Green long overdue represented all gasser is holding events with white supremacist. I don't pick my exact three least favoured, so at all

how can you not question before that? We get to the possibility of working with them. because people may not understand and, and maybe things of devolved, even further from the time that I was working, the Senate, which is now a number of years ago, when you I'm across folks just identified will you find Oda That your word or when you come, as people who may find that they have a view about you, because of what you believe you shake others hands? I mean you haven't been their long time do, what the other way you smile and I what what's the social atmosphere like strictly in the wake of January sex? intensity, ungracious person. I will creep whoever reach me. I The first people to read me during my first orientation was medicine for fighting. Even though his views are radically different from mine. We often have mutually respectful conversations in exchange, pleasantries and so some capable of

indecency toward members of the opposing parties There are some members who who cross the line for me, and MR goes. I in particular, should be ashamed of himself for openly affiliating Wes nationals. So I wanna go to some of the issues that are very important in the country. putting to you. I know it we touched on on one of them already and that the issue of poverty and I will talk about this a little bit from the press progressive standpoint, which is where you seen becoming at this issue and other issues, and you mentioned in passing a few minutes ago. The child tax credit, if if there's one thing that you thought would most remediate or mitigate poverty in the country, would it be some version of that, a more robust version of that was, or something else

judgment a permanent, progressive child tat spread. It is the most powerful tool that we have for radically reducing poverty, in particular child poverty in the United States. No child poverty, First, our economy up to a trillion dollars every year in lost productivity, lost economic growth and Republicans, often speaker neither the individualistic and pull yourself Bayonne bootstraps and make the right choices. personal choices, but no how that America chose to before the poverty, is an accident a birth, but it's an accident, a birth. It has lifelong consequences. And it seems to me that we have an obligation. To do everything we can to lift our children out of poverty

set them on an upward trajectory in life in a before the american Rescue plan the star. Four of the child's ass credit was so regressive. Behind a third of american soldiers. The poorest children in a man about twenty seven million angel and noted was more left behind them. Fifteen the South Bronx, were two thirds of children were excluded from the full benefit of the child's accident. and so the expansion of the child's exploited under the american rescue plan, which we passed back in March, cuts child poverty by fifty. Percent, not only in the Bronx, but when the United States, and for me The central priority of the next infrastructure investment should be to make permanent expansion of the child's exploited, because a permanent, progressive child tax

It would be to families with children Dron security, has long been to senior citizens without social security after percent of senior citizens would be languishing in that when you advocate on behalf of these policies and issues duty, distress the Morlocks back of your position and how it in a just and and fair country, that children. As you said a moment ago, dont choose their poverty, they can't be blamed for it. And so the right and righteous thing to do is to develop and, these policies to help those folks or do you tend to argue, depending on who the peace you're arguing about it with? Is that its pregnant ethically good for everyone, and that the costs like The train dollar amount that you mentioned, that it's good for folks economic the around the country, otherwise, because the key

society, don't necessarily c in the people, don't necessarily calculate and they down and ignore are such that this is well worth it pays for itself, overall, which arguments you focus on both for me: a permanent progressive child tax fraud. It is both good economics And the morals, a guy evaluate policies in line both moral values and a of acts. For me, as a mounted progressive. I set goals. There reflect my moral values, but then how I measure progress, what achieving those brothels. In the real world. That's a deeply in enterprise. So I feel, like you have to consider both. Did you have that DEC sir makes me asked the question: do you The philosophy of what it means to be a congressmen. Do a philosophy of politics or philosophy of government or do pragmatically look at

each issue, one by one in case by case, so that, you know some overarching particular philosophy may apply one way When you talk about poverty, differently. When you talking about trade or something else, do you think about that or do do you take things one one issue? At a time Both sides need appear to be avoiding the passion but but its boss. I consider each and every issue on its own merits and the emperor of facts and how it implicate the values that I dear, but at the same time, for me, there I think of myself as a progressive and progressive ISM is different from utopian. If the central value of Progressive ISM is progress, would she can measure internally in the real world, and so I try to advocate for policies.

There have been shown or known to create progress for the people. I represent that debt I believe my obligation is elected, official to do an enormous amount of work for an enormous number be for me. we are judged, the quality of our lives is judged by the impact we have on others. I want to ask myself What am I didn t be remembered for? it's gonna, be said about me in my youth, She was gonna, be spoken about me and my about me and my obituary. Now those are the questions like keep mine What would you like the first tends to be then. I won't be remembered as a as an advocate for the urban war as an advocate for poor people of color in the South Bronx in public housing,

and someone who who never forgot, where you came from that, even when I left the South Bronx the South Bronx. Never let me and then I never forgot my routes in public housing which to me, is the greatest safety net of deeply affordable housing in the United States My conversation with Richie Torres continues after this. What if your home security system did more than just deep, whenever you open the door to the backyard, what if it was powered by something more than a set of double a batteries. What, if it actually cared, Well, then, it would be simply safe safe, is an award winning home security system and shore, it uses the latest technology. You need to keep your family safe

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free trial of clear visit, clavijo dot com, Slash fog's, that's k, L Av why oh com, Slash Fox, you mention urban poverty. And I think you said earlier that urban poverty is different from rural poverty. My questions are one explain how it's different and too, the extent that they are both forms of poverty Do you find your optimism that you can ray common ground with her fine common faith with people who represent rural poverty stricken districts in the country to do something for both policies that I champion like a child had spread. It benefit those living in both rural american Urban? Rightly, the attempts have closed the digital divide, which became even more glaring, during over nineteen benefits, also in rural America than an open urban among you, nice people often about urban poppy,

Is that the reality in my district? That's my open a large farms. I don't believe in the fifteen. Are there were more than us, four years ago, but no one in item to speak, about issues and champion causes through the prism of my love expert? I do not fit into the typical profile of a number of governments. I do not have a college degree or lower degree. I do not have departed sore come from a political family I thank the greatest contribution I make is the wisdom of experience. I draw on my lived experience as a poor kid from the rocks to inform the policies that I advocate for the United States Congress. I feel like that's what distinguishes me from the average american do you think the progressives fight for speak about advocate for policies that helped the middle class, the so called middle class? They were always.

Talking about politicians always talking, but that that happens at the expense Urban and rural poor, I, I often ask myself who who gets to set the agenda which will get to decide what qualifies as progressive, but what ought to be the priorities of the progressive woman, because I find that the as is that generate the most retreats raft, indifferent from practical bread and butter concerns of the people. I represent this all wrong. So I do Philip. Historically, we have a system that overlooks the plight of the war. And for me there is no greater manifestation of system. racism, the racially concentrated poppy, wherever you have racially concentrated poverty, you will have worse, social outcomes in every aspect of society. Less public safety highway. of addiction and mental illness, higher rates of violence. So, for me,

If we are able to radically reduce freshly concentrated up, we can produce benefits of reverberated across design. Thinking about speaking with you in preparing for this interview, what came to mind, as is my, I think, is my favorite quote from Gandhi. We did not want it. usually recite, and it's not about independence from Great Britain. But it's about some of these issues we been talking about and Gandhi. One said quote There are people in the world, so hungry than God cannot appear to them, except in the form of bread and in a more fame what it is that is often recited where he said a nation's greatness Is measured by how it treats its weakest members, and so are the reason why there is actually the earlier question about more

diversity is in pragmatism, and economic effect is, from my perspective, as a moral imperative when you think about the quotes from January. About the things that are happening in your district. It is in some ways more important in some ways more according to the values of the country, then You some things that we do for the rich, certainly and also for the middle east- ass is that it is at a fair way of thinking about it or any second get me in trouble. I visit I growth. Emily, I spoke of the south. Bronx. Does the essential congressional district of murder, I feel even more deeply after holding we're doing all that we are judged by how we treat the most essential lungs and take the subject of affordable housing, the essential workers of New York City, right, a moral right to live to us, where to live in a city. I cannot

they see it as what about universal basic income? Where do you rank that in terms of the potential tools to eradicate or alleviate poverty? where, where closest as we ve ever been she'll, be I am Think of the assent for the child. Hacked credit is essentially the form of a basic income families which often it's me what is its expansion of not its close through universal town, but what I mean setting for a moment, because this is a thing I've been thinking about since cobbling. What will you mentioned? Social security, social security is politically strong and perhaps immortal because it's not means tested. Everyone gets there, so security check and there, people I don't need it, but there are people dependent the spectrum. You think they necessity ends and in love We begins. It makes it very very politically popular and I wondered as you think about. Some of these proposals fell tax, credit,

as basic income and other things. On the one hand, it's much more expensive give them to everybody. On the other hand, it has other political benefit that I referred to. How do you think about that uniform virtually case by case basis, but I reckon I said the broader the constituency way programme them. Stay out of the programme, and so one of the strengths of the child tat spread the great strength of social security is that it's either universal or widespread enough to be two to implicate most families with children, and that means a net benefit. So I tend to favour. Water safety nets and have more staying power and alone and help when a minimum wage, and to the minimum wage b. I the report that the attempt to establish as you know, is an hour's, a national minimum wage Could it be higher than that is at its edge? Is there for the least com

denominator, number that may be is attainable. Would you would you make it more? What should be a floor? Not a ceiling there? in places where in New Delhi, New York state, where the middle way certainly could be higher and one small business people. we're coalitions of business people prickly small business people say that will be ruinous. Have you argue against that? Look I never take those concerns lightly I am particularly sensitive to the plight of restaurants. Restaurants are the hardest business is to run even in the best of times, even before the outbreak of open, but the critic. of a minimum. Wage is often accompanied by apocalyptic predictions of mass unemployment that never country side tend to be sceptical about the apocalyptic garden.

It's against the law, which part of the issue for lots of people when you ve been very open and transparent about your own struggles. These have to do with mental health. And it s really extraordinary provokes. You don't know is about you. You have disclose publicly that you have struggled with depression and mental health over the course Your life, have you done that in part, because it so- something to get off your chest had begun. It in part. because it gives you some credibility in time. About these issues. there's another thing I said about it:. You get to be. A member Congress was also a real person, and people will An immediate usual words, and you should choose- should describe in the way that is correct, for you. That they look at you and respect you in a way they might not. Otherwise, because you have talked about problems that you have had, the maybe lots of other people have had. and are scared about, and

worried about. Speaking about publicly had how'd, you think about both the disclosures at you made publicly. and how we can do better. A treaty mental health problems in this country. You have been open about. My father's were depression because it is an important part of lamb and it explains in form part of what motivates me to be a public service and its import for elected officials to be authentic and accessible to the people we represent to enable the people we represent, their own follows. There lived experiences in your personal story and I have said publicly that I'd taken antidepressant every day. I feel no shame in admitting it. It enables me to be a productive public servant in national politics. in fifteen years ago, I had run out of college because I found myself struggling with a brush

I was abusing substances even attempted suicide. because I felt as if the world around me at last. And then seven years later I became the youngest elected official large city in America today on the United States Congress, and I would not be allowed Today, let alone a member of Congress were enough for mental health treatment which saved my life. I'm into that You know you mention a couple times did you not a graduate of college and but listen to the show on a regular basis, may know that this has been an issue that has been increasingly interesting to me ever since I had Michael Sandel, my old Flossy, professor in college Write a book called attorney of merit and he talks about happen, buses and Democrats, in particular, valorize college and one of the reasons for this great divide political divide in the country is that it?

between ethnic or racial groups, or are you know, coasts and the heartland people want a college unpeopled and go to college Do you have a view as a sitting democratic member of Congress and whether or not the Democratic Party. He's too much attention to college and overemphasizes college. When I think something like three quarters were, or two thirds of Americans don't go to college and movie there. I value education, which has just come from college, I do feel we have to rethink the notion that ever must go to her for your college. Everyone must go to four years of the ratification, learn, Shakespeare and then the workforce. It seems to me that there are some people who prefer may even be better suited to workforce development, apprenticeships, occasional schooling, and instead of imposing

a one size fits all model instead of steering everyone in one direction. Why not allow people, the freedom and flexibility to choose the path that speak for them, Why not allow settled an environment occasion like a power to be every bit as available to an apprenticeship to career in technical education, as it is to combat college education. You know reminded of a cold from Jordan gardener. said that a society, that's how rates shabbiness in philosophy, but still excellence in plumbing will happen. The good philosophy nor good night. Neither its types nor theories will hold water. And for me, what matters is not what you do, but how will you do it? We ought to celebrate excellence in every form.

Do you have a view on the proposal by various people to forgive college that and how that will play in the country? I am in favour of Freud debt cancellation because the one point: seven trillion dollars in student debt he's heavily on more forty million households? we urge rain on the american economy may, if you have stood in debt it has a distorting delaying effect on the most important like choices, the decision about went to by all All went off in a business or went to form a family absolute and all these decisions can be done. Where did by the overhang of student debt You know there have been attempts to pursue narrow debt cancellation? There was up

public service forgiveness for rim dating back to two thousand seven which said that if you committed years of your life to public service or government or not for profit. Then you could qualify for forgiveness and in two thousand seventeen there were tens of thousands of people will apply for public service through forgiveness, but if I recall correctly less than a hundred actually received student again, so they were people who organise your career choices around the expectation of student debt forgiveness only to be effectively defrauded by the federal government. An end, and so I tend to favour water debt cancellation for rams, because narrow debt cancellation has proven to be ineffective, as evidenced by the public service forgiveness berwin. Before you go, I want to switch gears for a few minutes.

about an issue in a topic that you have been outspoken on- and that is Israel the sovereignty of Israel, Israel's right to defend itself catch a preliminary question is- is the topic of Israel at the forefront of people's minds in your district? No I mean your most residents in the South Bronx are struggling to put food on the table and gave the ranks of their concerns kitchen table. So my question and we'll get it in a moment, is how you to think about the issues that you focus on speak about, making Pact on, given that you the constituency and why this was important for you to talk about and then to make us of the great thing about doing a package, as I can ask also decay It would have been objectionable in court. Does her compound pact? Ask podcast guests surprise at the reaction you got from fellow progressives.

an you stood up for the right of Israel to defend itself. No, when I do, I've seen the extremism of the media for when, as far back as two thousand Fourteen when I was a city council, however, I was invited to join a delegation to Israel in late two thousand fourteen early, two thousand fifteen, and I had never travelled abroad. I took up the opportunity- and when I announced that I was going to Israel, I was taken. Aback I, the overwhelming the trial and hatred directed against me. People say how dare you as analogy we teach you post of color, travelled to an apartheid stable, Just do what you're report was. First, I reject the promise. And it was one encounter in particular the left, an impression on me. There was an activist. Let assured that red careers for cattle

and I remember, approaching the activists- and I asked her: what is your opinion of Hamas And she said that Hamas is defending the liberation of the palestinian people. And the woman. I had an epiphany nor the fact that an old gb teach you activists could defend a towel. organization that systematically in savagely murders, L Gb teach you people back to me was has defined it is a sign of any of the stupidity and absurdity and more bankruptcy. Cbs has inflicted on Russia. Had a conversation, and that was the end of the council CS. The conversation, a broader question, but in the context of what you're talking about do you that discussion and I have my own negative view of this, getting the discussion

the discussion about political issues, particularly sensitive political issues, has over time and by over time in recent times, become less capable of new ones, and if so, why that happened? Did you talk about new wants alot? There are multiple causes the single greatest short term pause is social media and in particular, twitter, which has become a successful of extremism and and and Anti summoned. We are facing an epidemic crisis in which the Americans are operating, not on facts, but I'm tweets and hashtags and info graphics annulled, preferred outcomes. I feel like this is true in the area of my own expertise, the law criminal on particular. People once are now comes, and so anybody

bit of evidence were theorizing or speculation, in favour their outcome. They like otherwise no you'll, Jonathan and points out Jonathan agenda. The moral psychologist is of critical Plato, whose first her distinguish between reason and emotion, and an ivory Jonathan Plato was wrong that we do not offer purely or even primarily, on reason we tend to operate on emotions that motivate our reasoning, and there is no greater. study of motivated reasoning and confirmation buys and twitter. You said the following in speaking about your experiences on Israel in a recent interview, as I read it back to you and ask you to elaborate than I have a question, Quote for me, it should be possible to speak out against the eviction of a palestinian family without equating into ethnic cleansing. It should be possible to constructively critique the policies and pray.

says of the israeli government. Without calling for the destruction of Israel itself. My issue, you said, is not criticism the issue is the lack of new wants in the democratic socialist critique of Israel. What is often directed towards Israel is not criticism. It feels like hatred and quote, can say something more about that. My view is that the the deliberate use a paper bag is aimed at inciting hatred for Israel, rather than promoting peace between the Israelis and Palestinians and promoting peace ought to be the angle and for me the principle here is a two stage. I oppose settlements and annexation because it undermines the two state solution, but I also vehemently oppose the baby S open because it underlines

but you stay solution rather you're not saying that, but people who criticise Israel and the real policies, but it goes back to the. Simians, that's not automatically Anti Semitism, correct, constructive criticism of israeli practices and policies is not only healthy. Its poorly necessary as it is against every country in the world, but you're taking the Discipline Devils Agri Advocate for a moment might someday. I think that you are quick to take the position. critics are operating in bad faith, even if they're using, sometimes hyperbolic language, but that, they're doing in good faith, and maybe there Their words in the language of the arguments are too strong, Not nuanced

But they have a reason to be upset. Is that fair or not I'm not questioning their face? I'm questioning I'm expressing concern about there in ten ish can be impossible to discern, but about the practical consequences like ideas and words are consequences and, in my view, You cannot incite hatred for the world's only jewish state without ultimately inciting hatred for the jewish community, and this is not a theoretical concern we saw during the month of May. The amplification of anti Zionism ones were led to and help break of, anti semitic violence. There was not a coincidence. but you are connected and it's fair to say that all of us, especially those of us in elected office, want to be mindful of the words we choose to do. It should be possible to constructively critique, is real

practices and policies without be legitimize in Israel as it as a jewish state, I would welcome constructive criticism, but incitement to hatred, inflammatory rhetoric is quite different from what I would revert to construct the princes, and you yourself have constructive criticism for Israel. Correct I annexation is is, is it is apparent to me the denial of its profoundly incompatible with palestinian sovereignty with the two state solution, and I strongly and I found Netanyahu to be an odious figure, he was the damage from both Israel. Would you think the current leaders? It is better the Since the original, when you're analyzing a parliamentary debate-

proceed apple over the broader coalition in the broader coalition is an improvement upon and now I wish, the israeli government had a much more progressive prime minister, but an alternative to tonight I was certainly one final question for you, sir. Even very generous with your time. Something I didn't know until my team prepared. A very thorough dossier on you- and I was I smiled when I saw this. Could you the folks, and I presume this is true how you got your first name, so my mother was function. the movie about great movie by the way I told my kids about yes and she was fired, namely after which he bounce. So that's why mining includes a t. Normally, riches spells oddity or I see HIV as enriching rich, but I was named after Richie Balance.

My twin brother, listening, after the wooden sandwich I infer from that and I'm the favorite son rich about, of course, very popular musician died young in a plane crash, the lonely body Holly, seventy years old. Are you music I wanted to politics, because I have no didn't feel any sort of pressure from the origin story to become a? mission singer of some sort. If I had two children would have a care I have women. I have to make. Do have to make at the play with the cards You ve been very generous with your time congressmen Richie this energy balance, no congressmen Richie Torres thanks, returned thanks for your service in and get back to work and fix a lot of stuff for us. Please. I appreciate Thank you very than you do. Take you.

My conversation with Richie Torres continues for members of the cafe insider community to try out the membership free for two weeks had to cap. It all come slash insider again. That's Cathay, dot, com, slash insider. I want to show this week by reflecting on something that's pretty fundamental and that is or democracy we can do to improve it and, in particular I'm talking about. thinking about it, because separated. In a panel last week there was working. by the Brennan Centre for Justice and protect democracy and the project on government oversight, and it got me about various things, and I want to share some of the points made during that session You may know that I co chaired a task force on democracy with former Governor Christie tied women. She was a former governor of New Jersey and the former EPA administrator and life

Republican, and we propose various things into reports to try to sort of codified, some of the norms had it been trampled in recent yours and so on is panel gum, women and I were joined by Bob our the form Obama, White House counsel in the moderator Hazel from MSNBC to talk about how we can go forward and make sure their democracy functions better than it has other things that need to be put into law, as opposed to trusted to the honor system, which has so many things have operate. in the country to date and among the proposals that we have offered, and some people that are sitting around in Congress waiting to be passed on things like Erecting a better wall between Deirdre prosecutors and elected officials requiring people who

fire to be president revised president of the United States to disclose their tax returns, something that did not happen with the spectral one of the candidates last time round. Getting more teeth to ethics watchdogs, starting to apply conflict of interest rules and principles to the President of the United States. Also proposals to protect scientific integrity, which has come under fire and has been a problem elucidated. I think in crystallized most clearly because of the corona by pandemic. But so one of the questions that arose in this panel and then arises otherwise is how do you convince people that these reforms are necessary? I wish you lots. Democrats feel that they are Their view is that these norms were trampled by republican president I'll drop but how do you persuade folks? both sides of the ILO to get some of these provisions past I guess, or to answer to that question, and there were thinking about and the first the answer. I must offer, It is a sort of one of pragmatism, the p both sides of the I'll have an interesting

ensure that in the executive branch member up to and including the president doesn't trample, nor Is it happen now it can happen again. As I said at the event, There is no law of nature ideology or politics, or psychology It says that some of those norms are trampled by Donald Trump will not be trampled by a counterpart of his and the Democratic Party or an independent party, either the state, local or federal level. Go to the extent that legislation takes bipartisan support in either chamber to get past two they sent. The folks who want to talk about these issues can make the point that this is not just about Donald Trump. This is not just about some particulars relating to that particular president is not even to by January. Sixth, it's about a debt nation of politics and norms in the honor system that can be transgressed by Anybody Democratic Republic, it. It might seem far fetched to some people on the progressive side. But to me it's not but you could have somebody who decides.

to learn some of the lessons from diatribe about lying about office getting but attacking, press about challenging the results of an election critically ideological about any of that, and so you would think on. The principle of what's good, for the goose is good for the gander. Republicans also, would no employ and codified some of these safeguards and guard rails so that without trumped into the country cannot be done by anyone in the future? I, from time to time, talked about the ass. If you John rules who talked about the principle, of evaluating policies and the propriety and fairness of policies from me when he calls the veil of ignorance and If you presume that veil in this hypothetical and you dont know who's gonna be and trawl for eight twelve. Sixteen years from now could be democratic could be republican could been independent. I think people of good faith mindedness would want to make sure that you had those safeguards in place

it may be the case that today, a lack of these rules advantages one side, but that necessarily be true in the future, so that point one pragmatically folks to say this, happen on the other side to to do your best to fix democracy. While you have the opportunity today, but there is a more high minded reason as well, and that is there's something about the institution of the presidency that deserves to be saved and not talked about in the partisan way. Did I has discussed it. Barbara was asked the question how it suggest to Joe Biden that he should adopt some of these reforms. In its initial question because President's Like power presence of both parties and proposals to limit power limit accountability are not things it The executive branch officials embrace and by Bower, says that the press has to understand. I think this president does that he is himself not the office of the presidency

and then in some sense he holds it as a custodian four presidents to come. So as not all about him, it's about the future as well and Bob's response got me thinking about, not just the pragmatic arguments in favour of these reforms and shoring up or demand see, but also the moral imperative to do so because then something missing in a lot of despair, and debate number of years, at least to my in my ear, we always ask, is it good for the party? Is it good for that person is good for that process, political prospects it better, for the Democrats is a better for the Republicans in what's missing is, I think, the more fundamental and important question. What is the right thing to do? Is it right that the Justice Department can you weapon Ized? Is it right that people can try to overturn section that whether or not it can be used against you in the future. But is it right sort of as a priority matter? and when the most distressing things about lasting arrears? To me, of course, has been shifting norms, but to me also distressing, has been

shift, and even the rhetoric with which we talk about these questions? How often do you think the last number of years that the first and most important question was actually asked. What is the right thing to do as opposed to? Does it help us politically? Does it help the republican Party? Does it help Donald Trump I think I'll drop us asking those questions, and maybe some of this is alive and overly idealistic I've been thinking more and more about how we need leaders to return to the fundamental question, not whether it's good for your political standing out, whether it's good for your parties popularity, but whether the thing you're, considering the action you're thinking about taking, ask yourself what it's right for the demand. See and for the country, as we discussed in the panel. Their reasons to be, you know pessimistic about what can be accomplished. We had a period of reform some years ago after a corrupt administration, known as the Nixon

The train is barbaric, pointed out and Judge Whitman pointed out. There was a coming together by people on both sides, Democrats and Republicans to see what we can say allowing for fixed in a lot of accountability, is well we're not really seeing that just yet, but I hope and confidence that have good people keep talking about it. Keep proposed these things keep lobbying their members of Congress to pass. Some of these laws keep attention to it in the public square that people will finally ultimately see what the right thing to do is for a country, and we can get along much better. Will that's it for this episode of They turned thanks again to my guest Richie Torres. If you like, what we do rate,

have you to show an apple pie outcasts or wherever you listen. Every pause review helps new listeners, find a shell. Send me your car and about news politics and justice tweet them to me treat brought with the hashtag asked breed. call and leave me a message at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight at six, six thousand nine hundred and twenty four preet or you can send an email to stay tuned to cafe stay tuned, is presented by CAFE studios and the Vocs media podcast network. Your host is pre Ferrara. The executive producer is tomorrow, supper,

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