From CAFE welcome to stay tuned. I'm prepared some propaganda right to present an image of the bright future. It was a fake, but positive image of the future pushes propagandist. If it will, I called him, then it's not about positive future, actually does no future job. That's Gary Kasparov he's the best chess player. Who's ever lived, an advocate for human rights and a staunch critic of latter repugnant spoke with him last year and I to bring this episode back, backed my audience now, because wild the news has been at the forefront many Oceans around Russia and its involvement in he. Politics remain unanswered and Gary's insights unpure, and his ruin. Russia help make some sense of what happening here since retiring from professional chess Gary has dedicated his life to come

in power in politics in his native Russia. In fact, since we are this interview, he held a full day conference called Putin Con here in New York that I attended along with the broader another one of her former guests, we'll get to work Casper others learned and how it affects those of us in America in a few minutes, but first the question time praise this is just the Frankfurt locked out of California love your question about this new aberration with between children and parents of immigrants or asylum seekers. Is it actually legal from thing that trumped is made up? Is it actually a law and if the house and set it to go back to democratic, is there even a law to repeal? Thank you so much for your show by thanks to you for your question, but a lot of people have

very upset. I think, appropriately myself included over all the things that are happening on the: U S southern border and was making the problem even worse. In compounding. I think people's outrage is the way in which the administration has been explaining it and not, explaining it fairly and hiding behind technicalities and sometimes outright lying about it. Every time the president or the sector of homeland Security said that the absolutely have to separate children, because is the It's just not fair is not correct, if not accurate and, as I'm sure you ve heard on television in a newspaper articles cause has been going on for some days and I haven't been with you in a while. The administration made the decision to have a zero tolerance policy at the border that the decision you make that's discretionary. No, we brought immigration cases when I was: U S attorney. I add immigration cases when I was an assistant you, his attorney, and we brought cases relating to illegal reentry. Usually we brought them after exercising our discretion

against people who, at some aggravating crime or felony that they ve been convicted of, were deported and then return to United States and that's how he decided to apply our resources and like most used trees office did not bring criminal cases every instance where someone had merely committed the misdemeanor of coming into our country. Remember it's a misdemeanor now, once you decide that every single misdemeanor is going to be prosecuted and you put the parent who is the Misdemeanant under arrest and in cuffs, based on other law that exists, the children have to be separated from the but if you don't make the decision to prosecute every single case of those misdemeanours, and you dont have a problem at all. So, for years and years nears both under the Bush administration in the above administration, There were cases that they would bring against. People are coming to the country, and so there would be some separation, but it was not one hundred percent in every case

where people were merely seeking asylum coming to United States, let me see a of other things, one. It seems at what Trump really getting out and the people like Stephen Miller and his administration they don't like immigration, not just illegal immigration, then reduce legal immigration as well, It seems they want to eliminate any possibility of appropriate and legitimate asylum seekers from getting that kind of refugee status in United States. In the south, the way America has treated immigrants in the past. I don't think it's the way they should treat emigrants. Looking I you know, I don't think you need to be apparent to feel the pain. That's going on the southern border, its tragic, tragic, terrible. I signed on last week to an open letter to Jeff Sessions, along with dozens and dozens of my former, you

Turning colleagues making exactly was point, your discretion is supposed to be exercised wisely and with justice. In your mind, and in your heart and generous beings, your tones policies are lazy. They are trying to get across. The political point sometimes are worthwhile, sometimes are necessary in limited circumstances. If you have a crisis much what crisis there is it's going on. My understanding is that border crossings are down from the Bush administration in from the Obama administration. So if you dont have heart in how you decide your enforcement priorities, then you can have problems like this. So I was asked the question recently your whose responsibility is it to make sure that the children are reunited with their parents? Is the prosecutors responsibility.

Is it the excesses? Responsibility, in my view, has its everyone's responsibility, one of the judges of the southern borders as something that is worth noting in remembering he said it well, when you are a criminal defendant and you have rights in this country when you're arrested in the officer of the agent takes your personal property which are to phone or a car or currency, or so else. They make an inventory of it and they give you a receipt for it, and that is still the defendants property and needs to be returned to that person later and the judges saying words today fact to an Ausa on the southern border last week and said I don't understand so a piece of property, you get a receipt, but you take away someone's child and there's not even slip. A paper says he was turning and everyone who is involved in law enforcement is supposed to do. The right thing in the right way for the right reasons, and now it's not always spelled out in the statute book as I was spilled, and was of evidence, but it is spelled out in the oath, and that is to make sure

that your visit undue collateral consequences on people and that the punishment for a mere misdemeanor should not be the law. Of your child forever. It's not for me why that x is better able to track your package. Then our government is in tracking children there taking away from people who are trying to come to this country for good reason, a treat this is joint unless Angeles, I'm a big fan of your, shall I have a question about Pollyanna for who went to jail today. Why was he got his chair? What is preventing him from cooperating with the sad truth is requested?

You know that the issue of cooperation in the psychology of cooperation is something that people have thought about long time. I'm writing about a little bit in the book and human beings being unique, have different reasons for doing what they do. Some people fight and go to trial. Some people plead guilty. Some people flip some people don't and there's some people if the pride away and there's some people who only on the eve of I'll finally focus your mind on what's going on. So the decision about whether or not pull metaphor wants to cooperate could be affected by number things, including in what he thinks. Loyalty means, including whether not he thinks he has information, that's worth while to give us. The house and also in the unique circumstances of his case, the possibility

being pardoned lots of signals of coming out from the White House and from diatribe himself that seem to suggest that if you keep your mouth shut in, you read between the lines. Maybe you too can get a pardon there's. Another component of this also the prosecution side, and it may be the payment of what has an interest in cooperating and it may be followed- seems very unlikely that, through his attorney, has proffered some information to the prosecution saying well, this is the kind of thing he might have an the prosecutors. Don't need it to make a further cases

what else or maybe there's not a further case, they think they can make, because in the federal system, in order to become a signed up collaborator, you have to provide, what's known as cordon quote, substantial assistance. If you can't provided whether now he wants to, he gets no deal so again, the dynamic of it. The psychology of it is all unclear, but those are the possible reasons. Why he's not cooperating his other question about cooperation in the form of a tweet, from M F wonder without stands, for is it possible? There are other cooperating witnesses that we don't know about. I recall reading mafia, when made men would flip, but it wouldn't be known until a trial was that's great question. It happens. All the time, in fact, was all sorts of evidence,

though we may not be aware of in the rush investigation, probably are unaware of. If you remember over the course of many weeks and talking about the investigation on the show is often the case that a bombshell will come out on a particular day and people are focused on the person who often comes to light has been charge. That was true with George Papadopoulos has been she with other people as well. There are basically two kinds of cooperation right, there's, historical cooperation than theirs proactive cooperation, and both of them can be secret. You know sometimes until you closer to trial, but the most important kind of secret cooperation is proactive, which occurs when you want Foresman, either put summit under arrest or approaches. Edmund says we could arrest you and ask them to flip in a way that they can do sleuthing and other kinds of investigative fact gathering for the prosecution.

But other people, knowing it's in the most in a fruitful way that a cooperating witness can do that. So long as nobody knows that person is a cooperating witness is to do something like make a phone call, that's recorded or a body wire, with a case after case after case where you do that in the mob cases. That would happen all the time where people still trust the person, don't know that they have been approached by law enforcement and they say things that incriminate them, because you're talking to somebody, they don't realize, is now an arm of the government. I don't believe that is likely to be happening to anybody in the ambit of the investigation so far,

any associated the president, any associate of metaphor, any associate of a lot of folks probably were being careful because they think everything is being looked at, but you never know. I was surprised to see Paul metaphor engaging in what seems he witnessed hampering himself while he was on house arrest spray, dumb lots of people to very done things in it. I suppose it's possible that they are cooperating witnesses who have been doing proactive work that remains to be seen. But yes, absolutely. Everyone should remember from the spirit of your question, but there's lots and lots of stuff. The prosecutors are doing that probably true with Michael calling in the southern district and true of metaphor, and others, the special council lots and lots of stuff that we don't know. I guess this week is retired chess master and human rights advocates. Gary Kasparov Guerin, I talk

December last year, shortly before Michael Flynn, who briefly service President Transnational, secure adviser plead guilty to lying to the FBI about contacts he had with the russian government. Before that plea. Gary, had a theory about the relationship between Flint, Donald Trump and latterly potent it struck me when we first, and, as the months have gone by its feeling, even more pressure, that's coming to stay tuned, supported by zip recruiter I've been away for a long time and no lawyer ever when a case by himself, it takes a team. It takes the best people. That's where zip recruiter can help. Zip recruiter is so effective that eighty percent of employers who post Unzip Procurator get equality candidate through the

within the first day, their matching technology and easy to use website, streamline the process, making sure the applications you see or from well qualified candidates. With the right experience now, my listeners contrive recruiter for free at this exclusive web. Address zip, recruiter, dotcom, slash, preach that zip, recruiter, dot, com, Slash p, r e t. Let me say a big welcome too, My guest on this week's programme Garry Kasparov thanks, we letting me so you know for a lot of things, but the thing you known for most is for being perhaps the best chess player in history the world. I'm sure you too, appearing that very tired of hearing that, yes, absolutely no you're, not ok, fine right I every long ago, so on. That's whites glorious part of my life, but I am quite happy I managed to have firm or transition and now we're whole people can recognize me doing other things

not only did the former well just jump before we get to the other things. I wanted to stick on just for a couple of minutes. God we have three ago and we talked about it a little bit Did you know that you're good at that game? Your question is, is easy. Beats that much vague, because we ve been good every see that I was good at it. When I let s, because I could compete ways with my relatives and then add a seven I could play while against all the kids are in applying your palace, the chair section in Baku, if you mean goods as the very strong chest, Blair Prodigy, probably h, nine ten goose now being a potential champion, a shooting forty. When did you start playing, probably else six that nobody was there to tweet this news

hopefully with Donald Trump. Wasn't there tweeting you're? No, no, no just planets was just serve as winter evening year. Sixty eight sixty nine. I just watched by parents trying to solve such problems, and I gotta infatuated with was was the game I'd say was the greatest moment, so I was by the way. I was very lucky that I did discover chess at an early age because that's war, I could show the greatest talent. I have to be thankful to my mother who spend her life. Did it get her life to me of them? My father died. I was seven and she never married, and from her I learned. How do our part you have war? Can if you fail you just you know you keep going on, so it all up to you to be the difference. So if not you well, that was them our motto. That was on top of my bet. She also convinced me that the game of chess was not just about winning, but is about making the difference. How is playing chess of emigrants

Oh will you play chess insist, it's it's it's about finding something! Some new, just new openings, new ideas in the middle game of chess is not just a sport is also art and science. So there's plenty of room for discoveries. And I was not just the best player in Eightys and Ninetys and the beginning of tuna for socially, but also I was most advanced pioneer or because I always wanted to find something. You do just to push the horizons to come up with new ideas, and it's all support. Because this is the way you can stand top extinct hope is also dangerous, since in our you dont have opponents, are you beat all of them and you can easily lose the sense sense of dangerous. What I call the gravity of bus success. The reason I could survive for such a long time is because I believe that I have to fight my own excellence, so just fighting bureau.

Axles gives you a good reason to come up with new ideas. All the time. Fighting on excellence, is a luxury problem to have look, it's locked free, but its many people failed by being on the top. They just the laws, the sense of competition and they became easy prey for other competitors. And I always thought that it's not enough to win an Game was all technique, so you always have to come up with new ideas to be cutting edge. To make sure you always have somebody in his sleeves to surprise your opponents. You say Europe from the game of chess, but you still play chess. I hate telling you that is, we have to. We have to examine definition, I don't mean ok, let's let the van after my own heart enough for me playing chess means playing just professionally. So that's why I can tell you I've retired, in two thousand five since that time. I played many simultaneous games, fun games Commission Games, but I retired from professional chess,

so, when we will sell Gary's, thus making come back now? I just I argued for funds for made sir, it's having justification interests its for fun. So I'm the am produced amateur on the planet, fixed his problem long as I'm its preventive. It's no don't hold back what, but why higher, so in other and other kinds of sports, if you're a pitcher, you get old if you're runner your legs not moving fast. I should Your brain works just as well in the chest way. Why? Why retire of? First of all, let you know, let's, let's make clear your brain is not functioning as fast as we had twenty or twenty five, but the big issue is as well. You agent, you have other things to concentrate on your family, you have other things and your concentration is no longer same crystal clear as it used to be. When you are a teenager, Oreo twenties, organ

cities for me to retired each forty, one still being number one rated plan. Wealth was part of my belief that it was not just about winning, but about making the difference, and I felt at that time that I have made more than I could ever in the game of chess shoe. Why not do other things and just you try to women myself still being Willie forties plain to energy and I believe that the world could offer the opportunities to invest more knowledge. My experience, my analytical scales, my reputation, Bob quite happy, that's all last twelve years, I manage this transition just to establish myself as as a human rights activist as a writer as a speaker, it's it's a new life. It's too has plaintiff because I keep promoting game of Chess Kasparov just foundation with it.

It's a new life and its. I think it was very good decision last question about chess. Before you retired professionally. You actually had a non human opponent. You played a computer, invite. You, by the way you had one there was a considerable acclaim. We played deep blue in ninety ninety six, you beat the computer. Why do agree to do that? Match them still thinking, sometimes just the middle of knights, who whether it was by course from a blessing speaking about machines. So that's when I became won't emperor nine. Eighty five issues were lovingly weak. I played some others exhibition against, so you do computers at that time and one all it all again. Should it When they retire from professional Jason, two thousand five machines war fruits- let me too, but I wasn't all children in this period and I I still think it was my blessing that I was a watch him and at that time

George moment very narrow window were machine could compete with humans and as by that, why the heavens everywhere externally chess, it's a classical algorithm, so it starts with. Oh it's impossible, then machine. Are too weak to compete with the laughing at that, then real competition and then machines? far superior forever after many other human occupation, we will see the same phenomena, but chest was while the first one you mentioned, six I want the match. I thought it was important. The world champion, not a double challenge. So did you was, I could begin so at risk of being the first wanted beaten or at the risk of in the first one. Who does the challenge safe? For me, it was not a choice for your audience. I can give a piece of treatment that, if reaches up on you, Mobile device is stronger than the blue. Bought and talk about Russia. We talk about lot in this country these days and relationship Putin? Actually, you young American TV,

Many are much more by russian and russian to have assured us that it has because Britain does want russian tv talk about Russia's easy traces. So bad. That's! Why russian to be to talk about America as, of course arch enemy and about anything else, anything but Russia right, but before I get we talk about Putin and I know you have some views in you're, not a fee what one day eventually soon we're gonna have a prudent on the show both were having some trouble finding one. Oh I'm sure we can find one. But we may I come undershirts, yes, the present, for example, How would you We hear a lot about the russian government and no must be about not had a chance to go to Russia lifelike an average russian and what does the average rush think about America and Americans today today I live in exile for nearly five years. For obvious reasons, my mother Soulis lives there. So that's why I've some first hand, information, she's, eighty,

and then she was born of union soon. She lived under Stalin on the crucial on the Reggie drop of Gorbachev Yeltsin soon she heard everything so, and she tells me that today's even worse than any Stalin's bridges years, because The summit propaganda, though people could see through some of them better try to present an image of the bright future. So, yes, we have some just now, but eventually will I will build common is, will build a society where everybody will enjoy equal and we have ever seen early will be so buttons food and and opportunities as it was a fake but Paul The image of the future put his propaganda different, it's more like cult of death, not about positive future? Actually diesel future at all? It's all Russia being the besieged.

Fortress surrounded by the wider global evil- and he Vladimir Putin, is the only Saviour of Mother Russia from AIDS, multiple ever enemies, its poisonous, its it's totally brainwashing and its. It has new positive substance. Does the average russian citizen by it, That is why the many a buying it because you have to fund, Explanation for why you lifers is getting worse. So is the intellectual, psychological rock. So people can take it him just not to see the reality. If we move from should ever Russians from countryside due to them, vast so with tears in Moscow in Petersburg? Here the situation is different because it's not channel one channel. Do the symbolic primitive propaganda. Are women. Put it on his cronies credit for developing a very new type of propaganda. They developed great technique in in selling this message in Russia by ten

think, are the minds of intelligent people, because the whole concept is simple. Truth is relative: Putin is more like merchant of doubts. Oh yeah, we're corrupt, but everybody is corrupt. What about bad? But what exactly? This is. What about your day managed to actually become a top professionals. By do even Russia, then they from Russia to the russian speaking neighbourhood, the former Soviet Union, the ball, the eggs you grade then too. In Europe, Western Europe and, of course, eventually ended up in the United States. They are being prepared. Right so what Americans experienced during the lustre election season? That was a technique that has been polish twelve years in Russia all in russian speaking countries. So that's. Why did factors there been already off we armed to play the same role as they did deeds in my country, even in the United States, so it no modern, like days approved ever you had one state sponsored

news organisations that only said positive things. Now I've seen some of your writing on this there, Double news outlets, some of which, in instances are permitted to criticise in ITALY and give them credit will exactly because they have no credibility, since they have as you put it out to the many channels they can afford to to empower the channels was negative stores. They were there. Sports him. So you immediately cd that the sea does this channels credible, but It has a story to sell and then another channel cells, another piece of story, it's very hard even for advanced audience tat followed because they so quick and again The truth is relative to show It is paradoxical that situations in Russia that the same evening to different channels, russian TV, presented. Two different versions of I may seventeen being shot. One is by Ukraine. Miss are ones by Ukraine, another jet, so you say how come? Who cares?

It's all about different wars. Some people heard this one, some glowed that one we don't know what's happened. If not it's not about pushing for, the particular truth. No it's by its about making people believe you can trust. In any truth, exactly this is eat. It's it's destroying the very notion of truth and, of course, it aims at the democratic Easter. Since because, if nothing. This is true, then everything is relative. So, what's the difference between democracy and dictatorship, the all bad is corrupt and you we'll take seriously even open, democratic petition doing it or the free press is not a free press, because everybody's is the same. So it's easy to poison people was the abundance of information. Do you see any echoes of that strategy? Of attacking the very concept truth going on in the United States? All absolutely so. Were It seems to me that now they were, they succeeded in it.

Doubts among american public it's war, baldy partisanship than about facts, one suit of american public. Not sure whether to believe especial prosecute or Russia today that some of the big victory for Kremlin where's the rush day, of course, we can say american media outlets that simply repeating the Artes stories, it hard now to convince people pointing at fact that's a big victory of put his propaganda machine. This is a clever strategy, because at base many people want to believe what they want to believe and they have no one donation towards particular belief We provide them with something they hoped to be true bill. Leave it or is it something different from that? You write their natural instinct of people who are addicted to certain political views, to stick with was the heroes, and if you feed them was information that, at that

slice they're interested by the outside world. They can bite. Why We have pauses and both sides them many people in the middle and adding Propaganda is most effective for this middle because, as about doubts, You don't want these people to actually look at the facts and take them into face value. You want them to doubt. You once said about Vladimir Putin. You said Vladimir Putin is A strong leader in the same, the arsenic is a strong drink. That's what you mean by that I think, is calling dictator. A strong leader, its first, it's the its disrespect for the for the people who are suffering on his rule and also from My knowledge of history tells me it at the end of any dictatorship is bitter for any country. At the end of the end of the room of the strong. So a strong leader. You have poisonous minds, you have normally rule country, and then you needs democratic institutions. I republic, too,

repair the damage, but you think strong leader and the reason I ask as we had friend bill browser on the show a couple weeks ago he talked about the death of Sergei Mccluskey, among other things, and when asked him whether not Putin was strong. Leader or not? He says easy here, like he's a small weak man, Is he strong in any sense or is smart in any sense we talk about London, which today we have to realise that what we call strong leader and I disagree or just today we follow with in other extreme His bills comments about being a weak man, who is stir looking for every opportunity prove that he is not weak, but he doesn't operating vacuum. Vladimir Putin, Luke Strong, because the opposition, week, because for years we saw no political will in the free well to confront Vladimir Putin. When you could proof he's witness and put his knows, I won.

Whether from books or more likely from his instincts that either we can make many mistakes except one. He cannot afford look weak on its white all about the limits not being invincible but look invincible and that's why the actual everything to demonstrate that he could be, the strongest leader leading the world by defying the United States. By defy opinion by pushing his agenda on the you knows that even some relatively small victories could be turned into a major demonstration of useless ability, but this idea you're, referring to of love, dictate or not able to allow himself to look weak does not apply to them kind of leader a president, a senator governor. What what Lee can afford to look. We cannot in any way would talk about. Democracy is like in his country, and we know that we have elections. If you look, we could lose elections, but it's a natural process.

Image can be by the with tested by the facts so one could argue that tax on what facts, but still you have results. You have free press if some press tells the leader is invincible. You always have the opposite press that we'll will tell you that a king of the snakes, even if you deal with Paul the rural? Like communist dictatorship, to have certain rules within the group of the polish remembers? The Did the top communist leaders dad negotiate look for some balance and do a sudden lose not that. I proof this is kind of this kind of rule, but but devil a blaze of succession and they could conspire against each other, but they dad and of preserving the system. Now one dictatorship is the most stable and dangerous form of govern its all, but one man, sing depends on his image. He strengths, the entire system of checks and balances built around him. It's

far more dangerous and stable than any other form of dictatorship. Worry us groups like in even the most egregious drew mafia groups, negotiating with each other. It's about one man and weed. History, that when everything was content They did just around one man. So we, ended up with was great disasters, so they're very strategies of dealing with dictatorships in America has obviously national lists in Overtime Mary has dealt with Russia and the previous ovine in different ways, and you been critical not just of trumpet also the way that the Obama administration dealt with Putin and Russia. Let me quote something to you: you said I am speaking about the reset the above? illustration advocated with respect to Russia. You said what I'm a did out of naivety and misguided ideology, may do seeking profit, but both Obama Antrim

enjoy announcing big deals and prioritize the illusion of success over the real thing. Why did you say that In fact, in my book windows coming, I looked earlier presidents, so I talked about Bill Clinton and before three and my arm, was that since the end of the cold war, Amerika had no strategy, long term strategy to make the difference to change the world. Since world war, two from truly administration to Ronald Reagan, administration there was submitted, systems. There was a policy that will There were changes, but within was in a rage. You had Democratic Republic recognising that was existential enemy and probably it's sick. What symbolic that institutions build by Herod Truman by democratic like CIA Nato, National Security Council and many others that led to the cold war and the republican president

ninety nine. It was more like a pencil, those strategy. So that's why Bill Clinton Illegal George, w too much Obama. Was nothing prisoners but, as you know, you because all of a sudden, the iron curtain fell, but at any didn't know what that's what I did to be let slip, it was discussed because we all make mistakes at. I can confirm that he ninety ninety two I was- I was also reading the end of history of offers of grammar with just you know was was great joy because we all expect that that such was the end of history. Let celebrate let's just look in the future with great expectations, but history, is not linear Gozo cycles. It right yes and also evil doesn't die. You could be burnt for, while on the rebels of Berlin Wall but the moment will lose out Johns Hopkins, proud out, go from ninety ninety one. Ninety two, we now have recognize it when one

Chapter of history is closed, so we have to think about new plan and it United States was still is the leader of the free world, the most powerful country in the world, and it has come up with an idea. What is next, because if you don't offer that vacuum doesn't stay for too long, then that was being field You have put is written moors, north korean regime, China, you all sorts of fox and terrorists and an dictators it will benefit from it. Absence? Because absence and involving a means that someone else will stop coming up with an agenda. But this is not long term agenda this agenda. That is counterproductive for few for our future future of humanity, because its based on immediate benefits for players and these better these are just Diego, Daniel Strategic and their achieved at great expense. People in these countries, but even for us here- so you must

listen, argued pretty persuasively that there hasn't been a good strategy for dealing with it those structural, accurate, its strategy, Bulgaria, so the absence of a strategy. So, let's up, what's up your Secretary of state those extra said earlier- have any power authority anymore, it's a principle the president of the United States of the warriors. Who got the item more? Nor was I nor was I your choice with figuring out what the strategy should be with Russia going forward. Given the history and I know we can solve a xenophobic yes, but what's your best sense? how we should deal with Russia. I time that ok, what's now, what's that women ass, there was no answer, which is not, of course, be done an absolutely, but as a whole, Two words: if we just before we make new moves, we have to just recognised. Mistakes were made sense report, you analyze the games, you recognize what went wrong, so how can the food and then you come up with it was a plan. The very important part of any plan is just

recognize that results cannot be achieved, while myself, you Whatever is in office this big mistake, because when you would get a politicians whether these country or across the Atlantic, they all look for did that if so, how can get something out of this plan. No go. Back to the end of the world war. Two, so we have come The planet may work in ten years, it's important who will get consensus that certain plans will not work instantly and most likely the benefits can be right by people that follow you, even if you dont like them, because elections could bring other people into office. If we have to deal with It's an existential threat. It's not the same as the Soviet Union, but it's existential because it's even more dangerous to do foundation of democracy, because Putin and some terrorists, they know that they can survive only if they, if they get the the base of the free world.

So that's why we recognise it. What you the turnout in a globalized economy we are- powering our elements with technology invented here and the free world that they use very skilful. Undermined the very foundation of the fuel. It's a long story, but we have to read why is it? We are at war, we don't like it, but we are at war. Does. The only way for these guys to thrive is to being the confrontation with us. Cannot compete with us in productivity, in innovations and social services, but damn strategic advantage over us. They don't care about you lice, so for us, a loss of one life is tragic for them: killing a million demonstration of this dregs, so we just have to recognize it. Each time too utilise our resources because, unlike in in the forties or in early, we now for the free world, have the overwhelming military, economic and even

cultural and social advantage. How we used how we invest. Our capital In the future, I think is very important. It starts United States because America should come up with a bright vision, future. We just have to excite people about this. This vision, if you don't excite young people with some kind of projects ideas. Then you have Al Qaeda, ices and on other groups status, will always loses two dynamic ideology, even if this ideology is very on human and heinous, I want talk Two entanglements with respect to trump and prudent. Potentially one is end of today's. Sixteen, when Obama Hostile President but Trump had been elected, you about it creation decided to enjoy In sum. Sanction of Russia because of interference with the election, and they took some actions against russian diplomats.

Am I right that your expectation was in most experts? Expectations were in retaliation, for what Obama did Putin. We then retaliate in return. That was a normal practice of the cold war and That would be normal, but that didn't happen exactly and that that's. Why do you think? Why he's that's not know that is as people to realise that for Putin to stop lover of russian Foreign Minister of doing it after it was announced, by the way russian. For these two, where the announced that they would. Mirror american actions and do what does it say? the same number of diplomats, so it's it's something accepted thralled, cold war and for Putin today. Not to do the same so just to do not respond to american hostile let it, ah, by not expelling of american diplomats instead of inviting cates of his diplomats to accrue, three celebration, Kremlin,

That was a show weakness does right. I'm gonna make him down unless act wisely, lessened discuss unless he at something much bigger in mind so for put into a week means this, for me is that he had something else he had yet yet calculated that you could be compensated, was a much bigger victory, and the only explanation is that he expected Trump you re wine. These order, The reason he believed was the Michael Win called russian Ambassador, when I think here issued russian ambassador that tromp administration would would not honour Obama's actions. You don't think I was a promise of a weakening our logo it'll something much bigger. What is important is that Vladimir Putin believed. Might Sweden. So to me, when I'm sure, but when you say my it, we don't have any evidence.

Call it Michael Flynn said that thing you know it's the look. I agree. So we are just you know. If you follow the only speculate out our gas, that ok, we can, we would speak laying is What we know where this Vladimir Putin stopped russian Foreign Minister of doing whatever we expect him to do to expelled equal number of american diplomats. He'd want America expected him, everybody expect to. Ah, That's already, that's that's not to show weakness, but also undermining one of his most trustful cronies, which followed the protocol now we also know that Michael who spoke russian ass? We do what he said, but he spoke russian ambassador. I'm trying to connect the dots. Speculation too: What I believe happen these Michael fleeing asked rush. Passenger to pass the message to Kremlin that The administration would go back to normal and I think he begged him not to retaliate, because that would give Trump saw a better offer.

Did your shoe is his friendship. I see no other explanation. Wild earth, Vladimir Putin they d decision and x. And these are the olive branch due to america- by inviting american kids do a Christmas tree in income, giving glamour regrets his decision to stay the hand of lover of in retaliating know why he could get put in place these game I think the story proves to me shows we may call speculation they had already many convicts was before you and Atrocities authority, to convince Trump to reverse the order rather fleeing? acted on the trumps instructions or not it doesn't matter. I think what is important is longer understand it put in psychology. He believed that Michael fleeing had acted on behalf of Trump and prudent

expected as by the way russian propaganda machine expected tromp to perform and to rebuild our relations with Russia is maybe an unfair question, and then or speculating about what, that conversation with Michael Flynn and the staffing of the hand on retaliation, but a scale of one to ten. How confident are you in your theory, ten ten, without certainty, no that's the longest. That's all this yeah I'm here he said oh, I can. I can afford speculate but put in no man. So this is when you look at what he does in case. It's the these. No other explanation, Putin believed that here to show this mercy and being gracious, because the something big was coming and If you go back and if you look at what russian propaganda said about Trump and by the way, what is still saying about from. Even despite the fact that America,

he's out? Enemy is twenty four seven, America's bashing propaganda all over the place. They always separate Donald Trump and the deep state. So The only kutuzov tromp you can hear russian television is that that is weak and he can what team these deep state that is preventing a good guy too. From to improve relations with russia- and I think that who had a dream that maybe they could bring tromp Crimea and just to have the another- maybe not big three- big to now seen off a naughty forty, five Yalta, dividing the wealth, so I think was stead was produce master plan he expected We Michael a as national schemes adviser that day could they could succeed. I mentioned that there were two entanglements between Trump. Russia that I want to talk about the second one. This other entanglement has to do. Trumps tax returns, and there has been a lot of talk drink

Where's the campaign and sense of people being upset. The doll trump broke with tradition and forms of campaigning and didn't releases tax returns. Here's what you said about that you said quote untroubled, but from refusal to share his tax returns in two thousand eight he was from bankruptcy by an influx of foreign money and we good reason to suggest that the money most of this money came from Russia and russian oligarchs. Close quote. And you, the tax returns, might show that explain your belief. Their naturally that relations with foreign money holding to resolve some laurel. This money came from Russia during this crisis to South Asia. Nine, we know that russian oligarchs, as colleagues from other places There are always looking for a sort of the best schemes to launder money and real estate was the most trusted. Al Gore of supporting money from one

due to another, the Euro money could change hands but was real estate. You can put any price tag and it's it's her hard proof of any wrong doings. It seems to me that a trumpet empire was an ideal targets for rushed oligarchs. Or are you part of rush oligarchs too? Channel money to the United States since prompts own son brag about about too. I am, I believed at sir. It did take place this transaction. This Malden with all transactions to place. Unless We see the tax returns is hard to prove the scope of operation. For me, the problem is how much is not what he took place Do you think that the reason Donald Trump has refused to release is tax returns? Is this man other things as well, but I'm sure, though many operations that could showed at tat

was not very scruples with tax regulations. Here is pure speculation. I've done then you'll want to turn. This is lower. Number is much lower number, but if he was as which, as he claimed he was at ease and use all these operations, these the odd money transfer rules state deals. There were clean as he claims they were? So why not so if he was so adamant of do as you wish good health, his image because he's He is very protective of the image and adding a new he Ah, you refusal to these taxes was helping him that means that he had very serious reason. Some greater interest example, so my prior job? I looked at your rest record You are in fact arrested. If it am, I correct in two thousand twelve yeah to sell you a few times. While a lot ignores the two thousand. You know it's a long refuge are no less had. The two thousand

of arrest. You were arrested. A protest, yes kills colleagues was not a process is the eye. Was it several times at protist actions, but in two thousand twelve. I was on my way to the court room where they had to read the verdict for posterity. Pussy right, so I will just It was the same. It was the same courtroom where they had voted for cotton coffee, so I knew what was so. I just I for my somewhere occasions, and I was just working there- no don't processed all I wanted just to get it through. To see their understood its worldwide five world. You write. What law did you break up of new? no eyewitnesses so majorities just it surrounding running the moment. I was taken away, I dragged by six of the ripe- please officers into the car I was. To radio Liberty correspondent its thank God you know those so many videos that show that I broke new laws and it was just to attack

all of a sudden by the right, please because they got instruction. Sir. Oh I'd just take this guy way, numerous instructing directly related to you. Gotta get gonna extra. That's it that's what always happen. Russians will happen soon, as you had to be you have the KGB, guys so D, the secret police, guys in the crowd they give instructions who to be arrested Why did wanted this conflict is no idea show whether this is took my way and then try to run away and then does the devil's beaten and then they I to charge me for attacking officer biting he's so good do bite. Did you bite and officers are no? I didn't. I was for twenty seconds that I was you know I was lying floor, so I didn't even have time to come. When my mouse or any actions now the good. Is it because this cameras, the actually ito. Some journalists actually found. You know just its aims picture in because he made so de this officer that allegedly was was beaten. He actually this August colonies finger ten minutes before

this so difference in replay none. I haven't yeas goodwill and also each of these twenty four to twenty one producer. Of me just you know, just being dragged by police and beaten. So there recorded for different angles about those two thousand twelve in. If the same happened today. Nobody cares who is this, I would be out, I would end up in jail for five years for attacking police officer who was an uniform and inactive did. So you think that The system, such as it is in Russia, deteriorated that much from two thousand to two thousand seventeen its, although justice system, because it was already ruined it's about structures for the government, because the end of the justice system actually could could be demonstrate about. My first threaten two thousand Simon. What it there To me again did nothing illegal and then they had a police officer, testifying who didn't see me at all? Who was act You could even mentioned the place and time of my arrest and the judge who

was in case she said. Look, I trust police office. Not videos, not all yours, not of witnesses, trust scheme, because he's wearing a uniform. So since two thousand seven in putting Russia. Now How much evidence you can bring Pierre with videos was other witnesses. It's all about these officer, who, as a final word, do miss Russia I would like to come back just to visit my mother, also just a few friends I don't think I will go back to leave their because I've got my home here of my kids here in Europe, but I think is important for me just to to feel free to come back and well by country just to go back to normal. As I believe that the future Russia kids have vital importance for the future of humanity, because if Russia keeps deteriorating and creating more problems the price will pay, could be too high sue. I hope I dreamed that Sudan, one day when Russia, instead of being the fervent.

The problem would become the rational solution for Opera Garry Kasparov. Thank you. So much really appreciate your time. You thank you. Well, that's it for this episode of stay tuned, thanks again to my guest. Gary Kasparov justify we're off next week enjoy the fourth of July Happy Independence Day. Cobblers America will be back with a new show, Angela twelve if you like a show rate and reviewed and apple pie casts every positive review helps new listeners find the show some of your questions about news in politics. Tweet them to me if reaper are with a hashtag, ask Preet or give me a call at six hundred and sixty nine, two hundred and forty seven, seven thousand three hundred and thirty, eight at six, six, nine,

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