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packing the toolbox by thy heart, radio, apt apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcast. Did you know lance pass? Is a russian train astronaut that he went through training in a secret facility outside pascal hoping to become the youngest person to go to space? Well, I ought to know because I That's it. I'm hosting a new podcast tells my crazy story and an even crazier story about a russian astronauts and found himself stuck in space with no country to bring him down with the soviet union collapsing around him, he forwarded the earth for three hundred and thirteen days changed the world. Listen to the last soviet on the iheart radio, at podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Wasn't this show so years ago we

I worked on a strange conversation that continues today. Everybody is aware that serial killers get a lot of attention in the media, despite the did. They are a minuscule portion of, for committing homicide aids distressing to know that, despite the hundreds of millions being spent to try to apprehend these monsters alive of them get away. Three of the current stories happening right now at the university of idaho, with, as for students who are found, stabbed in their home and no suspects. Yet nobody knows, is a serial killer. Well there are a lot of amount there historically, that either never got caught. We don't even know their true identities. divergent serial killers on the loose

thank you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't shoot me alone back to the show. My name is. My name is becoming makes this stuff things to watch, but no ordinary episode of stuff. They don't want you to know. I mean arguably had in order. I haven't seen. Have you heard it so This will be another extraordinary episode. Its dip,

in that we are returning to a topic we examined in the past at length. The dark, murky world of crime typically homicide, specifically the rarest, and perhaps was well known, form of homicide. Our really want to insert that sound effect for a man law and order, and just imagine the phrase, dick wolf ya, blossom in your head but now just dick wolves, blossoming everywhere, yeah yeah. A person in real life, but we don't want to mess with your imagination, nor impose limits on your creativity. So whenever you I think when you hear a phrase Reading your head just run wild you can write to us about it. We might not be able to read it on air

We examined serial killers in the past boy have way and we are picking up where we left off in our previous episode on serial killers on caught and otherwise in the episode to start off we're going to do a little bit of review. I guess you can call it from the last episode. What did we talk about in that one map, while in truth we've? This is like episode? were five in a way just because we ve covered specific serial killers and then other serial killers that disappeared or were never apple, ended. So we have the original night stalker. Now we over in some serious depth, which was terrifying. at nightmares for awhile that the guy was out there listening to us and then was going to come and find us also an app or hinted agree yes, the highway of tears another. Situation where thousands of the truck drivers in the native americans right I'm in canada and the more serious

killer or killers that have not been apprehended there and we for how we have two years, we partnered with out of works, auto experts, Scott Benjamin who is white, the true crime, aficionados and as nor mentioned in our first episode on various on caught serial killers killers who were on the list was and could be alive today and may even be alive as we're recording this episode. We we had christian sager from stuff to blow your mind, come onto the show friend of the show, and we looked at several different killers: the new bedford highway killer, the lisbon ripper pedro lopez. Who was I don't know if you can assign a value but in terms of numbers of people killed, is by far the highest and the victim

that he chose all children yeah. What does it take to earn the nickname the Ripper? I just you know it. Can you casually do that? Can I know the Ripper? I guess a few a before back and lime wire days by rip. Sick beats. Does that count that could count? They could count. Usually in the case of murder, its assigned by june, sal paper people kind of quantity, some sort of a rush to be the one to give the clever name, try the at large murderer and that's why There are a lot of the insert geographical, you should hear strangler soon, a lotta. The insert so the Ripper. He ever wonder about the ones that don't stick. some sad sack, journalists that just can it was really try and is best, but then Selina, but the other one took off and he was left in the dirt think about the two, because they could see the pitch meetings where they're trying to by the line between is this workable name for a serial killer, or does it sound like a deasey supervillain care

you see that movies a lot. You were there in the newsroom in the the grizzled old, Oh editor was like now we of them that bleeds had believed that leave come on something that capture them imaginations, how bend the river that sounds good Oh, and what about the bone collector like? That would work. That's great. I like the way you're thinking daring but we gotta have a bone and seeing the derbyshire disempower it right. If such a weird thing to think about that those are, a little exaggerated about what would happen, but very light. Yeah man, a fleeting ready, similar to things that are actually happening while on the streets there are people being murdered, will in fact there's a certain callousness to this kind of reporting. You can't deny range. Will this thousands, I would argue to reporting in general, especially in the west, because remember how posts Nixon, while none of us are old enough to remember ride after both Nixon y. All leslie now are de facto posts Nixon as soon

is the watergate scandal happens. Then people and just saying you know how we make something really cell attached. The word date to it write it happening ever sets happening ever since were apparently in the midst of stupid, watergate right now stupid, what they were. That's when John Oliver's call show I have you guys heard about the oliver effect this such a sidebar apparently last week tonight, which I think is a great shoe, has, a noticeable and statistically significant effect on legislation. They call it the oliver effect. that's impressive, and not just in the? U s. Even in new zealand man, we will the one with the Eminem year, where they ripped off. If they did they did a copyright, free impress impersonation of lose yourself. instrumental tracking and then they had a bunch of them is. Is it offensive to say key? We urge that

They seem brett live. If it is, then it's a shame, because it's also a really good key for how they pronounced words. Yes, everything is kind of a key ye. Would heal, beats It is a very real killer. However, the directive is leading ripping things have the lisbon Ripper right? Yes, the lisbon river, was one of the unfortunately many people who got the Ripper added to their name, and then there was also the craigslist river. All long island serial killer. What's troubling This is as we covered these none. those crimes elmo's have entitled persons. Those people remain apprehended in that got us thinking what This is out there because we said the first. If so, we only scratch the surface right. today we are returning to the grim morbid mines of cereal murder

and I mean just a slight disclaimer. This stuff is disturbed. In unsettling upsetting stuff, and if we get a little light with it. Occasionally I swear to you it's literally just to keep us from going insane, but We do have younger listeners out. There may be parents who are listening with younger ones. I'm not saying don't listen to it. I'm just saying use caution be aware. Yes, so far things. First, we want to define what makes a serial killer since it troubling lee controversial definition, the fbi, the definition of what exactly makes murderers serial killer as fluctuated over the past decades. We know that serial killer, was goin in the mid nineties seventies by a guy named Robert ressler, not spelled, unlike a fine wrestling way, are ssl

e r, because I you know, I don't know if people would take him seriously if he was MR wrestler yeah. That's like MR jackpots be a serial killer. Name, though that would be Robbie the robbie the wrestler, the former. He was the former director of FBI's violent criminal apprehension programme and he chose cereal because p, in the uk law enforcement called these types of murders, crimes in a series and because he grew up watching cereal ized films. Before this, these minerals. Worse, sometimes, zune is mass murderers or the act was called stranger on stranger. I'm which doesn't really cover because a mass murderer could be anything from an explosive device or what lord or warlord, that's a great point or a spree killer. Who is just like I'm mad about something I'm gonna. Take it out on everyone in this mcdonald s.

contained within that serial killer. Moniker is a lot of the college as well in terms of how they choose their victim. what their ammo is, how they go about planning these crimes There is much more premeditation involved in being a serial killer. Them say in being a mass murderer, spree killer, any kind of random or accidental killing right leg, so many people who kill someone in the course of trying to commit another crime, successfully bank robbery, burglary, a postage stamp fraud as one I could go back to us, I believe that a crime I, but we do have these are hardened as definitions or qualities of serial killers that I that we want everybody to be clear up now it comes from the nineteen ninety two crime classification manual in it is that a serial killer is someone who a committee at least three murders be in at least three different locations? See

encounters some kind of cooling off period in between murder, so stops murdering for awhile and picks it back, and we already know that definitions imperfect because there are serial killer like how do we define that location for it? We are. or serial killers routinely killed people within their homes. Every dahmer juggling Gacy, a career, remember his name, but that monster who invented a torture, truck, So by the way you check out check out the fbi's class. Application serial killers on the interstate. You will rethink rest stops in this country, we also know, there's a difference in the way that the media programme a serial killers verses the way these people act her so you know we ve. Seen like I hesitate to use. Words over it, but what are some of the most memorable serial killers and fiction animal lecter right, that's one!

I thought I was going to meanwhile yeah I was gonna say. Henry portrait of a serial killer is a good one when you already like assault, very solitary depiction of sort of like this lone wolf, serial killer situation, to get one american psycho. Mercosur this grey area in, of course, psycho yes and also psycho. In a. We know that in real life serial killers, typically work alone. It is very, very rare for them to cooperate in a typically kill strangers, who fit the m o of whatever it is their into and they kill for the sake of killing, as opposed to crime of passion, According to recent fbi, study have been approximately four hundred serial killers in the? U s in the past century and live. killed anywhere from winning five hundred to almost four thousand victims and back to the hall,

aspect of media involved in this. We ve got a depiction created by the media verses reality. So first off you know, does forget the tired old romanticized dexter. Where Hannibal lecter troves there's no way to really tell from outward appearances whether someone is or is not serial killer by. We can use psychology It's your profile, people a bit from what we know more than eighty percent of serial killers are male cohesion and in their twenties or thirty. and many criminologist believe serial killers also experience three very specific b, five years in childhood, known as the mcdonald triad map was that about, nor the mcdonald triad, our three things: bed, wedding, arson and cruelty to animals, so It is strange to me that these are the three things, because you you man

cruelty to animals is kind of a ramp up to cruelty to humans. Sure arsene shows that they, you don't really care about the consequences of an act. don't like that were possible. You don't care and then bed wedding that feels like outlier to me. So it's more the degree to which the Did you wish someone stops involuntarily wedding, the bed? So it's not that waiting in general that's very common thing to people when they are learning to use restroom in the way that our society says is correct as a bill curve of not wedding the bed, I think, oh yeah, starting out early in, but you know but the euro, some people will, in literally? I urinate. If we're just gonna, be dry medical about it are well into her teens and this under the mcdonald tree had invented by mcdonnel. Of course, is to him, one of the primary clues to the problem. We

You say that, like many other things is controversial, because it's always tough to measure people who don't want to be measured or bound, which even goes back to the earlier statistics. You know what we said. Eighty per cent of serial killers are male with. That probably means is eighty percent of apprehended serial killers. That's definitely what it means. so we do know that there are a few other observable commonalities: serial killers likely to have come from broken damaged home situations to have been abused, whether that is through physical or sexual activity, or through neglect, like chaining someone up in an empty room and we also know that you can't really, you probably have met somebody at your school irregular job with people joke about that person being a serial killer. We have a few here, which I won't but the truth of the matter is: there's not a single observable like out.

Personality. Fingerprints for thee, for the proof, positive of a serial killer, as some might be shine introverted others might He super gregarious like ted, Bundy and I'll going, but the crazy thing is: I think we talk about this issue for ted Bundy, I presented himself in court and he almost one. He was a as we said this earlier before Matt. I think you phrase them is people who had charm the pants off of you or your europe had, but we also know that they are not created equally the There may be a tendency towards higher than average intelligence, but there will also be

woohoo have lower than average. I q scores and the I q. Of course I can hear people typing emails now know the I q test is not a great measure of intelligence but of different processes. Different motivations are, but we do know that there is a nother type of classification system that groups p. Both by their acts, and I know you gonna break the stolen for you. You know I do ban ronald amman. Stephen t homes attempted break down these differences with a classification system called the homes type ology, so but the homes of algae groups killers. Accordingly, sue killers can be act focused and those who kill quickly or they can be process focused. Those who kill slowly and for act focused killers simply killing the act of killing itself is what does the job? That's the whole point, the whole point, within this group. You got two types: the visionary and the missionary mission,

it's not as fun as it sounds. Well once gets. You ever gets here the visionary murders, because they here voices or have visions that direct them to do so, and so this is the typical scenario, where you know the devil made me do it or you know you have a voice in your head, that's whispering to you to do horrible acts or my mother, yeah yeah, often demonic, divine or a departed. Influential relations right like in psycho freaks, that's a spoiler, but I think psychos at seventy years old elegant, so I think we're okay. I actually had an argument with my girlfriend the other day she said it's never cool to spoil anything, and I'm like We've been over this I've got it's okay, the community says five years. Is the statue limitations like I don't care? I just think you want to spoil things because it makes you sound like you're know it all. That sounds like you guys were ultimately arguing about something else but then there is the missionary, murderers and

You said there not is fine as it sounds at, of the missionary murders, because he or she believes that they are meant to get rid of a particular group of people either. I will every blockbuster manager. Now that's pretty much been been accomplished. or there are people who would save. For instance, due do two wrongs or due to my divine understanding, this specific type of persons could be race or ethnicity, motivated they, they must be cleansed of the earth, even as we're going to see later on things that have to do with monthly cycles or colour yeah, there's any kind of things that would to this end. It could even fall into the category of like a vigilante. That's like killing, you no doctor. The abortion clinic or something like that, or anybody that the seen congregating in a group at abortion clinics so to kind of pick out and like say that I'm doing

lords work, for example, or to have some sort of like crusade, mentality, yeah exactly and then will you process focused, sir, if the killer is a little bit different, these are the ones you typically see in, like the grisly, gruesome film depictions, where someone's doing some ritualistic, gnarly stuff yeah exactly so. This would be. You know for them the risk of sounding glib. It's about the journey. They don't the they don't necessarily get off on the death in less occurs under a very specific process. Workflow said be sadist yeah a status in and the they have three different types. Just like this visionary missionary, there are three different types of headedness. And then there is a separate special category.

coal power seeking killer so are the three types of headedness are aiming for, lust, thrill and gain, and there is a pretty self explanatory lust killers derive sexual pleasure from thrill killers. Get a kick kind of endorphin rush gain killers believe they will profit Some way in these, these are not exclusive categories of people tend to fall more into one than the other, age homes was taking money from ripping people? and his murder mansion, but he was also clearly into killing people in a myriad of torturous ways. Power killers once a play, god to be in charge of life or death and many times.

This will be the case of yo, the the nurses who are discovered to have been slowly poisoning patience over decades and in the past were very hard to catch. Then you get into classifications of serial killers by their organizational skills and their social skills. Which feels again, it all feel so strange trying to organise you people into groups, but if it makes a lot of sense when you're hunting serial killers rate as law enforcement though they can either be organised or distort disorganizing. That's when you look at the type of crime scene, how it set up of than you ve got no social or a social. This is going to depend on whether or not they exclude themselves from society, or whether a society excludes them, and then the majority identified. Serial killers are organised and non social, so they don't wanna hang yeah, but they do have a plan. They do have a plan and they like

things to be a very specific way and here's some silver lining which is gonna, be we actively went through one when the three of us work out of this episode and tried to find silver linings. Ladies and gentlemen, so a wine of ours there silver linings is that serial killers are for are far less common then the media and cultural might have you believe b. I and other experts estimate that at any given time, there are anywhere from fifty two while three hundred active serial killers in the- u s stuff, to prove those numbers for certain and there's one thing for sure. One of the only things we know. They're out there, somewhere beneath the pale moonlight dancing or sometimes just picking up the mail from the post Yeah. Don't trust people go there mailboxes night, that should be archery richer and So what we're gonna tell you all about it right after a quick word from our side,

war, This is like inside the box. I'm I still am martin in my podcast city of the rails, I plunged into the dark well that America's railways searching for my dad who really who ran off to hop chain like the train, where I'm end up job. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society off the grid and on the edge I was in love with a lifestyle and the freedom this community, no one understands who we truly are the rails. My question: everything I knew about motherhood, history and the thing we call the american dream it's the last vestige of american freedom? Everything about it is really here either

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agents, mistakes and a frank, lloyd right, commune destiny, immortality and unbreakable cycles. Weird sex duff, weird money, stuff weird. Answers. Three all goes to spell honours and one neurotic gay playwright who won't shut up about it. All guess which one I am listen to That lot is spent laana on the iheart radio apple podcasts or wherever you get your part. during the summer of twenty twenty, some american suspected that the fbi had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations and you know what They were right, I'm trevor arrogance and I'm hosting a new podcast series alphabet boys As the f b, I sometimes you get it We, the little guy to go after the bigger eat season, will take inside an undercover investigation, in the first season of alphabet boys, we arrive.

how the f b I spied on protesters in denver, The centre of this story is a raspy voiced, our smoking man who drives a silver hearse, sounds like a lot of good he's, a shark, the gun, bad ass, we nasty short using It's waiting for me to set the date the time and then for sure he was trying to get at the haven't, listened to alphabet boy I heart radio, app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Here's where it gets grace at the top of the show we rambled off several different cereal. there's that remain on caught hanging out somewhere. Maybe they died, maybe we'll just never find them, but guess what there are quite a few or- and they remain uncut today, or at least their crimes remain unsolved. So so many of these people

there. We can't cover them all in a single episode were probably gonna. Do a third one of these. At some point there may be a separate show just about crime and serial killers, blue that would be good or just us if the jaw on each one. This doesn't mean that these murderers are necessarily anonymous. In several cases. Investigators are convinced that they have discovered the identity of a given killer, but did not have sufficient evidence to make an official or clean conviction. That's that's what happens when you're on the side of the technically speaking, the good guys you have to obey rules that the there's do not have to obey and in other cases a string of murderers by an unidentified killer may actually be the work of another known murder and here's where we get to our first example of serial killers. There remain on the loose arctic, so

we're going to talk about a killer by the name of Bible John, which have yet to say, is pretty powerful name. It sounds like a villain in preacher recently, Bible John, is believed to have murdered three young women after meeting them at the barrow land ballroom in Glasgow, scotland between nineteen sixty eight nineteen sixty nine, as there was very little doubt that these murders were all carried out by the same person. All three victims were women, they'd all been strangled specifically with their pantyhose or their nylons, and they were all beaten. to death, and the name bible, John, is derived from the single suspect. In this case, the last victim shared a taxi with her sister and a man who said his name was John was quoting from the bible at them, but because this technically remains unsolved.

Does it mean they're suspects by several experts believe the bible? John murders were in fact come buying known and convicted serial killer with the up. Much less intriguing name, Peter Toby. So Tobin is convicted. Scottish serial killer, an sex offender who, as we speak as serving three life sentences with what they call over their whole life order, which basically like life without the possibility of parole. at age, imprison edinburgh for three,

it was committed between nineteen. Ninety one and two thousand and six with a very similar ammo and on a whole life order. Era sounds like a weird sign on for a series, but it is. It is something that this government will do to prevent. Someone from leaving the the prison system in europe and east, or in western europe, at least by a large, is much more centered on rehabilitation rather than you know, retribution or using prisoners as if labour church, the main thing in the? U s right, so this this guy, aha super messed up. He targeted women who are menstruating young women who he would found who we found at this ballroom and he would

this is the kind of thing we're talking about where serial killer can charm you, where he would meet. You meet these women at the bar and then essentially go home with them, or you know, go off with them to have a private moment or something, and then he would turn sounds like this guy's, the very definition of a missionary, serial killer. He was targeting menstruating woman. It's like he was singling them out for what he interpreted to be some sort of unclear when cleanliness or impurity, I suppose, and then you wanted to call them from the population yeah it's a possibility when you, when you get in some of the the rules and laws that you can find in books of the bible like leviticus or something. If you take those too seriously, you can get into some dangerous belief and thought territory there. Oh and another thing he took the handbags of these women right, he would like dump all the stuff out.

the handbag and then well, who knows if he actually took it or if he hit it or got rid of it or something with fetishes and relics and trophies are very common in a lot of serial killer cases. Luckily, you only got the three, but you can imagine you now gone unchecked for long enough time. You might have found his den and there just be a pile of handbags. and as in there may well be, and if this, if Bible John, is the same person as peter Tobin, what's morbidly fascinating here is that we may be able to trace the evolution, the increasing sophistication of a serial killer and sort of a similar to the red dragon cases I mentioned in the hannibal lecter series. This brings us so So technically, just to sum it up technically bible john remains unconvicted run apprehended, but

the growing number of investigators convinced that this is actually Peter Tobin. You just can't prove it right, because in the nineteen sixties. There was nowhere near the level of technological sophistication when it came to investigating dna, preserving bodies etc. But this is not the the example yeah. Next, you ve got the oakland county child killer, a k, a side, a chuckle. It's just. This is kind of faces, a guy like a villain on the tick or something the baby sitter. I just makes me shiver, as shiver. Rarely here I now see I I guess again, I'm doing a thing were I'm getting light with it, because if you dont, then it's like it's almost too much to analyse their defence back in his pretty cruel, I'm so the baby. Better concerns serial killer, a serial killer or killers,

I live in oakland, county michigan for thirteen months between February nineteen, seventy six and march nineteen, seventy seven yeah and this person or group is responsible for the murder of four children, two boys and two girls between the is of ten and twelve so particularly grizzly and the victims were held captive between four and nineteen days before all of the member slain, their bodies were always found wearing the same clothes in which they were last seen. All quote neatly laid out on the ground in various locations around this place in michigan, oakland county and the babysitter moniker comes from

this process of cleaning the bodies after they were finished, with whatever they were doing with them in his thought that it was post mortem that they were clean, slate fingernails clipped in everything right. I bet there was no evidence of sexual assault. There was a man, I hate him and tell him out this. Don't don't listen to this of your kid. There was tearing specifically on the boy So yes, this was a process killer towns like it is it in the reason I say I said that was because it makes me think of lake.

think things. I've seen in crime shows where a lot of times the killers when they were when they lay the body out with such care and precision, they are almost like. You know, trying to honor the the body and selling your wine buying it. So I'm wondering better, but I guess there was sexual motive, her there appears to be, and when you start looking at the suspects will again, these are suspects that, as the internet has grown and there's more and more information out there and people can become a sleuth. Online, a lot of stuff, has come to light and also from the parents of some of the victims, so way. Whether I can tell us all that about the suspects so one of them is christopher. Bush said this: is this guy's name? He was the son of gentleman named Harold Lee Bush, aha, who at the time was the executive financial director of general motors

very well to do suspect, yeah a family of well to do people and, let's see at the time there was this place called brother Paul's children's mission, which was located on far north fox island in lake michigan. So I don't want to get too much in the geography, but if, if you're, looking at a picture of michigan and you're, just looking at the the north, the northern tip of it, if you go a little bit to the west, that's where north and south fox islands are- and this was a front- for an underground child porn network, where all the terrible things that happened to children within one of those things occurring on this island, and there was an investigation into this. This ring of people who are making child pornography and the sky Christopher bush was caught up in it. They common skated eight roles of film from the sky. How old was he? He was twenty five at the time, so young

I have to be very active. Yes, but then you know he ended up getting arrested again for some more criminal sexual conduct involving children. With someone with some other dude named Gregory Greene, but where it gets a little crazy here, is that Gregory Green ended up being held on a seventy five thousand dollar bond, but this guy christopher or he got off of it when he didn't get out completely. But he got away with a one thousand dollar bond, and you know you imagine having one powerful, rich family, maybe it helped out there, so he was arrested in february of seventy seven, but the murders continue till march. Yes- and there is a sheriff like a nearby sheriff department, they got a phone call that this guy was seen by just a neighbor or something at a a cottage. I guess that the family owned that was quite a bit north of where the families main house was

and this person knew that this guy bushes was not supposed to be around minors around kids and he was apparently hanging out at this cottage with them, and this was on march nineteenth and here's the thing. The final victim timothy king went missing from march sixteenth until march twenty second, when his body was found and what happened to Christopher Bush well been courageous death certificate. This guide died by committing suicide on november twentieth nineteen, seventy eight when he was twenty seven years old so just about

year after these killings had stopped. These four killings- and I don't know it's not weird- I guess- but his body was cremated and the house where he lived with his parents was then sold off very soon after you can understand why survivors would want to forget that memory. Yes, even just from the previous, you know times the things he had gone in trouble for right, even if he wasn't the killer these children and he's not the only suspect, know. Next we have frances de Sheldon, who was a well known me, Three million air actually from an immensely wealthy families who were worthy soul owners of north fox island. Amber that island. Pretty pretty app on the hog if you own an island. No, I do not. This is the island that had brother Paul's children's mission on it. There was a front for a child porn ring. My gosh interesting geeks. Sheldon fled the country to the netherlands to avoid charges of sexual misconduct too.

as in boys, from port, her on told failing members Frances. Sheldon had molested and photographed them on this island evidence taken from child porn magazines showed children with a background identified as being The way north fox island right, verified the boys had been to the island reports of children's death surfaced in nineteen thirty six. And a michigan warrant for him was cancelled in may of nineteen. Ninety seven with state police reporting quote exceptional clearance, suspect, is dead and cannot be prosecuted but was obviously involved right. I mean that's you're, starting to see a picture here of perhaps a group

People who were you know doing terrible things to children on an island and then possibly killing them at which is due. Pedophile rings are unfortunately often dismissed as crackpot conspiracy theories, but there is hard evidence that they have existed. One needn't look no further than jimmy seville and wonder which of his current living friends will be posthumously exposed as yet another monster is just decide now and, most importantly, this ties into a future episode. No spoilers There are people who are concerned that sheldon and some his associates did not actually die, but that they switched. I,

entities, and we will have an upcoming episode that looks at how possible plausible or impossible implausible it is to fake ones, death. It's gonna be fascinating can wait for you to hear you. Over the years several lawsuits been filed against the oakland county prosecutor's office by the victims, families most of these come from a guy named, bury king, the father of timothy king, and deal with our work. Freedom of information act or Ethel. I request because he feels like he has been denied The information regarding the timothy king case, specifically by law enforcement, yeah pertaining to the suspects that we outlined there and just aside no

this, if you want to learn more about this, I would caution you away from it just because it is a dark dark place to go. But if you do want to, and there are places you can find information, catherine broad who's, one of the sisters of the victims- the king was her. Brother she's got a website, catherine broad bureaux, de dot blog there's, a documentary called decades of deceit. There was produced by the king family and there's a ready user named Assisi K, throw away that made these four really long in depth posts where you can their links galore there and you can just all the rabbit hole to your own insanity. And speedier insanity and rabbit holes, let's continue a bit further

I believe you will like this moniker, the freeway phantom ii in oakey. It's a shame that it went to such a monstrous person, because I would love to you know- have a friend known as the freeway phantom, because they were good at a smuggling course like in smokey and the bandit or something where they ghost road. The whip like to perfection, I'm more into the funky phantom, oh yo, there could be well phantom squad phantom qadri? We use what happened in this case, an unidentified assailant, abducted, sexually assaulted and strangled six female youths in washington d c from April of seventy one through september of seventy two. The victims were all african american girls. They were all between the ages of ten and eighteen, the phantom left hand written notes to and statements from victims of before their deaths,

I heavily imply the killer, was a white male and was very very hard to attract this. In these cases, allegations of police not putting in enough effort, repeatedly surfaced. We saw some similar things like this with the atlanta strangulation, young child murders seems very surely motivated, possibly right, for which I, in atlanta wayne Williams, is currently incarcerated. So this is a case where investigators feel like they had the person. They traced than this is very grisly stuff. They they started looking at people who would have similar embryos right. That's the first thing you do has. Is there any go is. Is there anybody in the legal system that has been proven to already have either the Therewithal motivation to commit these sorts of horrendous acts, Andy

immediately. Gravitated toward members of a group called the green vega game. Law enforcement officials involved with the case believe that for men who were involved in hundreds, hundreds of rapes from nineteen sixty nine nineteen. Seventy three were implicated in the child murders, but they weren't convicted nancy said they were correct. doubly disport eyes, collectively responsible for these crimes in DC and in maryland, and they were also involved in abductions. So the police individually interview these gang members, and then they visit a priest in wharton virginia, where the gang members were serving sentences due to unrelated convict thrive, the interviews. This is weird one gang member initially implicated, another member and said: will this guy said he did it and here's how he told me he did it and the thing is

both inmates were serving time at this same prison and. The one who is giving the info so well. I'll tell you the whole story, but only if I remain anonymous, so we identified the mate who told the story, the time and the location of the crime and certain specific details which were not provided to the public, but which were known only as far as the cops could figure out to the detectives. the freeway phantom. So the information checked out, so they found their guy right. The guy that this one person they interviewed pointed the finger at right yeah. But that's that's like an it's, not quite a smoking gun yeah, but that is very close to a smoking gun where you know, if, if just the investigators and then brights one guy cause, there's no, you can't really count on somebody wild guessing the specific charles.

Here's the problem. Now here's lay still on the list because they had amassed all this evidence and they were ready to move. But then something happened. The case files were lost as, like everything gone, proof proof goodbye, keyser, susie's. How does that even happen? Isn't that somebody somebody was inside right, just the seventies, what it feels yeah I mean you know till all paper, all paper, so I mean they give em a measure. They had duplicates on some low oh, but it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to have them find their way into a fire sums but he sounds like intentional to me as I guess that's what I'm getting at you know, because I all of the files, you know especially we consider how much paper work they had to generate in the course of this kind of investigation, people with no stacks and

back to wrap sheets alone unrelated and they all know each other and their like children. So of course, the community to this day. Doesn't by that this gives me the start to think about serial killer cults yeah. Yeah he is well. I don't want to think about that. You give us a more nightmare stuff for me. Well if they exist there want you to think about it either. C'mon man nightmares are good for you. They put hair on your chest. No, they don't your smooth, smooth baby like just don't want them to put pp in my bed, because then it might be serious yeah. So that's that's what happened with that one. Very next. Can I say this one, because I just love saying yeah yeah, give it a shot at the maniac of note spirits

the maniac of novosibirsk. So this is this is an interesting case. This is more recent. There were seventeen within murdered between ninety ninety eight and two thousand six very specific imo in a town in russia. All I knew was bear goon. The victims were found on the outskirts of town that were mutilated, the capital is dismembered, symbols were carved into their bodies and in every case their hearts were removed. Often this disfigurement was so extreme. In that law enforcement could not identify the body day. Wings, fingerprints gone dental any any teeth, probably knocked out tattoos off the skin.

They had a few things in common. They were all women, there all loopholes and they were all prostitutes in two thousand and six. For some reason. The killings just stopped and that is something that's extraordinarily rare in the case of the baby sitter no, we saw a very short thirteen month period right with four noon victims, but that that leads us to believe that, if circumstances hatton change, those killings would have continued. So was very strange for this stuff to stop the murderer disappeared and this led police to believe something that is there usually three common things that happened: three common explanations: when the serial killer oars a series of murders stops occurring,

the police were always assume all the killers may be moved or they died or arrested or have been arrested on another crime right and in this case they still continued to hunt for the killer and they found really interesting Series of suspects in two thousand and fifteen, the police arrested a cab driver by the name of alexey even of on suspicion of the murders. He instead ass to a series of unrelated murders, also all women yeah. I mean yes, rather smokers fire so. What we're saying here is that apparently novosibirsk is a is a pretty pretty tough neighborhood. I know you imagine that you're searching for one serial killer, which is already so rare and in the process as you pick up another guy, is I whoa yeah? I killed a course. I killed a series of own, not not, though,

Not those, though those are my it's probably like one of those small towns and like british cop shows with theirs. Cereal murderer like a week, you now how right yeah, that's the weirdest thing about suspension of disbelief arrives yeah. I know it's a small town, everybody the leaves the door's locked, despite the fact that about once for a year or so someone kills twenty people. Now we, their legatee, can even go further, where it's late with scooby do like it travelling around now showing a guess, they're, they're kind of on tour right or they are banned- that clear They did it very bang whole lot of time on the mythology. Now it's been awhile for me this was jabber jolly. They were definitely a ban huge average. I was totally like a one to one of scooby: do they solve that? They had like they have the talking animal with a speech impediment even like, I think, dude weren't, ass garden and average. Anyway, we digress back to the grizzly

so you see what I'm trying I'm trying to d I'm trying to derail. There's a little bit because this is just so darn upsetting, but we will Sally forth. There was a different size, yes, there was in fact another suspect in twenty. Sixteen police arrested former cop by the name of a vaguely toothless meekly forgive utter garbage pronunciation them doing. The best I can this individual was the spectre of the murders, though he had yet to be convicted and here's a little interesting, twisty side. Now I'm not gonna say his name again tell you that right now, familiarity milken, call mister t mister t now to be confused with the mister T. This is the russian mister t for the purposes of our shop. Mister t was arrested by russia's ministry of internal affairs, which I This means that he was under investigation as a dirty cop, potentially local law enforcement rights, unless I think, that's so the trial, laundry internally or exactly

I, on a federal level on a federal level. Exactly so the trial is in fact a moving forward, and while the ministry is almost certainly, this is their guy. He is yet to be they did even though dna was found on some of the prostitutes which he explains as a result of him spending a lot of time with prostitutes on duty here, one of that one of the the way explained it is. Nonetheless, to have my irritable street, I have to know who is going where, who was driving drunk I go, find drunk driver, maybe gives me a bribe skip some paperwork. so he painted it ass, sort of his own official job duties. Right deep, deep cover as a tool,

apparently right and then at one point he confessed, and he in he said that he did the symbols on purpose and this was actually in brutal calculation. This was actually pretty smart on his behalf, because if he was a police officer, he knew how to hide evidence or he should have an and he wanted the murders to look occult or technical nature, and he said he wanted to. You have a red herring for the police, but they later he recanted, and he said no. I did that under pressure. If a vague need, jubilee risky or mr tease convicted, who be another example of a killer? Who appeared to get away only to be captured months years or even decades later? And this lets us end on a little bit less of a bleak note, because,

these sorts of killers. They may get away for a long time are often apprehended one way or another and will tell you about just few afterward from our response: This is inside the box, I'm I still am whiten in my podcast city of the rails, I plunged into the at world of america's railroads searching for my daddy ruby, who ran off to hop train, stop on the train, where I'm going to end up job. Following my daughter, I found a secret city of unforgettable characters living outside society off the grid and on the edge I was in love with a lifestyle and freedom, this community, no one stance who we truly are the rails, They may question everything I knew about motherhood, history and the thing we call the american dream,

it's the last vestige of american freedom. Everything about it is extremely serious. Going to die, or you can have this incredible river and really understand who you are come with me to find out what we threats and the city of the rails, listen, the city, the rails and the I heard media hype apple pie cas wherever you get your pike, ass or city of the rail start com, its nineteen sixty seven old war and joseph Alan's daughters, deadline of the princess of the kremlin has just fly mother, russia, her new home, a place where the roads paved with gold and people, big apple, eyes out a baseball's and freedom a place called a man I am very happy to be here.

That story alone would be worthy of a podcast, but this one is that Lana Svetlana is about what comes next and it's the craziest story. I've ever heard it has KGB the agents, mystics and a frank, lloyd right, commune destiny, immortality and unbreakable cycles. Weird sex duff, weird money, stuff weird, answers three all goes to settle on us and one neurotic gate playwright who won't shut up about it. All guess which one I am listen to This deadline is don't wanna, be I her radio apple podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. During the summer of twenty twenty, some american suspected that the fbi had secretly infiltrated the racial justice demonstrations and you know what They were right, I'm trevor arrogance and I'm hosting a new podcast hearings, alphabet boys, is the f b. I sometimes you get it.

Grab the little guy to go after the big eat season will take you inside an undercover investigation. In the first season of alphabet boys. We arrive killing how the FBI, spied on protesters in denver. The centre of this story is a raspy voiced, guard smoking, man who drives a silver hearse, sounds like a lot of good he's, a shark the gun, bad ass, we and nasty sharks is waiting for me to set the date the time and then for sure you wanna go ahead and listen alphabet an eye radio up apple pie, gas or wherever you are broadcast He was no sign of life, which is five. One thing that always got me about scooby. Do is how it's so rarely turned out to be super

actual whose bother me? No, no, I mean in the original series it was never supernatural. It was always. I was always old man old man in our from the haunted, amusement pardon whatever it was until like the twin. One. Ghosts of scooby do in surprise where it was there were, definitely goes and that when they were other innovations of the show where there were supernatural elements, but the original series you think they'd, eventually catch on, stop getting spooked now because they wanted to believe or at least start discriminating against or profiling, the guys old white guys. You know what I mean is sometimes women. Maybe it was a cautionary tale. Old white, guys for kids, I'm speaking of older white, guys wearing bands and area. Although I would still drive a custom van like that, I don't care about the mileage. I did. I want only the wizard on it. I want one. That's decked out, like a stew,

the apartment you know, but with windows. So people don't think I'm a serial killer. I wanna torture, rack and mine towards direct Do we should make a cunning convoy Sorry I was when I took taking it light a step too far, that's. It happens when keeping it alike closer. I so here someone things would arrive for this character. If you read about serial killers, the new probably read a few years back about a killer known as BT k, which stands for buying tortured killed. This is a self appointed nickname. I this person was actually named dennis rate I am from nineteen seventy four to ninety ninety one, while from nineteen seventy four to nineteen, seventy nine, he had killed ten people in total collected items, totems, fetiches relics, trophies it s the best way to

it I from each murder scene and he wrote numerous letters taunting the police, but then he underwent a dormant period and here's the weirdest part on Dennis Dennis's radars career as a serial killer. If he had not been drawn back by apparently fame and ego, then he would have been fine anywhere. It continue working at the church that he worked out and when you work at a veteran, Terry veterinarians office year end just eventually make a death bed confession or be something his family would find all the stuff after his death, but he could not resist writing another series of taunting letters about how it fully and to commit another murder in two thousand and four because he was inept. He sent correspondence that was easy to trace. He actually at one point ass law enforcement if it was possible for them to trace him based on your singing

I'd, like a three point. Five, this guy, you know I everybody's younger, in the crowd. If you look at the scene button on your microsoft word, that's an image of those three point. Five per cent iv which aiding people will forget over time, but they said yeah there's no way. We can do that and they totally then they found the address and there was matter of time before he found him. He didn't fit a lot of the supposed. while serial killers. You that's why you can't find them He was a family man. was a family man who had a lot of internal issues, but he is locked up, is under the jail, does not the uk. They dont require a whole life order. He is going to die in jail. and then there were other people like the grim sleeper lonnie David Franklin junior believed a responsible for these ten murders and an attempted murder. In los angeles.

Your wrestling name. The grim sleeper really does really does like he teamed up with the undertakers something, and he has a special hold. Does his thick signature sleeper hold, now region. Now we can see stuff like that because he is also apprehended he is also never getting out of jail. The point we're making is that these killers do get caught. This is not a bleak hopeless story. In many cases, and with just the cases we've looked at now, it provides us with more questions than it does answers right. So what happens to these folks that are not apprehended once both from part one and part two? Will we know that some of them are just taken out because they are arrested for something else and they're sitting in a prison cell somewhere doing time for burglary or you know whatever other smaller crime they committed, or even maybe a single murder or something

We also know that, with technology advancing the way it is for forensic science, it's more difficult for these guys to hide somewhere do what the bt k killer did and just live with a family somewhere else in the world. Eventually, if you, I stop one time committing a murderer. One of these horrible acts you will probably get caught and- and you know a lot of these people, because several the things we talked about were in the sixties and seventies, and a lot of them have died and will probably never be caught, it's possible yeah what about zodiac if he gets to the other, if zodiac is still out there, then he is infirmed, then yeah, then he might not even know who the killer is at this point because interesting,

yeah. It's scary thing, a lot of what you're talking about reminds me of the show the keepers on netflix. If you haven't seen it in you like true crime, it's worth your time. Is it a documentary or when it is? A document is exciting easier. If you know this, this concept breezes an interesting disturbing to better worded disturbing question if some Like that is discovered, is it prosecuting the same person, someone with dementia that doesn't even know anymore? Some, like let's say someone was convicted I am glad we know they did a have several murders in the nineteen sixties, but now they're in their late eighties and they're late relished. It it's sad to say, but that that reminds me of what's going on with bill cosby. You know, I'm not I'm not a doctor. I can't diagnose the man, but when you

read before others came out, he was on some late night shows he did show signs of not being fully their mentally and you get the sense that he doesn't entirely comprehend. What's going on with all of the accusations he doesn't care. I don't know I mean you did he just having

in his dementia first hand. I remember when I saw him on early on before all this came out and he was on one of the late shows, and it was just kind of a little bit sad because he just did not seem like he quite understood what was going on and he wasn't like him himself. So I'm wondering if that's a similar situation, where anyone who gets justice is not going to be as satisfying, perhaps because the person who did the crimes maybe is not aware that what they've done any more hidden to those philosophical areas. Where is punishing the body of the thing, the person that did these things worth it? Even if it can't

pretend? Why would also say you're one of the one of the at the very least. Equally crucial factors here is closure. That was never what happened right and speaking of closure. We do have conclusions so, yes, an apprehended serial killers are out there accordingly, the eye estimates fifty two three hundred in the: u s alone, right now, right now, that's a hell of a margin. but that also goes into the definitions of monsieur le girl. Is the famous hitman head man? The ice man sat qualifies a serial killer because it was his profession right. Where do we draw the line? Luckily, these sorts of killers, despite the the wild estimates, are hyperbole sensationalism, Are extremely rare, but there are real life monsters and in the vast majority of cases you will not know if you walk by one on the street

you might have you know it's a very real thing that people report people believe in hunches right, intuitions, spider senses, but even that, then that is not not proven to or to work, because then we would just have people who are detecting these human monsters. Yeah read, it would be amazing at it yeah and in we gotta be fair to the jerks of the world. Just being a jerk doesn't mean that someone is a murderer or a danger to society. We cannot stress how important it is. However, If you do know of or if you No someone that you suspect might be actively doing something. you can and should, report those suspicions and this, This is something that that sounds. Very televised right sounds like the script for some some true crime drama, right, some law and order type thing, but

what would you do? What would you do if your neighbor, who was not an unpleasant person, one day I went on vacation quote unquote and then you saw his car and was suspicious activity, and then you read about people disappearing. You know, and I've been afraid to say the thing hey, I told you, I'm gonna, move okay, just be cool to have him put the jokes aside. Ladies and gentlemen, the the the truth of the matter is that there's a very thin line between paranoia and actual evidence

reporting it because we all we ve all seen this before when there is an act of high profile. Serial killer, like in the movies, was summer of sam about sam berkowitz in that and that film, why things have happened was that law enforcement and just like an zodiac cases, was inundated with false reports. Some people just wanted attention, so it's tough, but it is true that, with all the personal data being shared between whoever you pay your phone bill to wherever you Your driver's license wherever you pay your taxes and every but when, whatever social media, you know you use, it seems more and more likely that previous and previously unidentified serial killers could eventually become a thing of the past. These are pioneer days where you could just go through the territories killing. As you pleased, however, we can't forget that in some

cases these killers function in positions of power. They are able to influence the mechanisms meant apprehend them like live like the police officer that no mentioned yeah, then that is a huge point here that terrifies me Especially when there are multiple people in power that are working together and one thing that yeah one thing that startles me too, is how often a string of serial murders might not get reported outside of local news. Is that cooperation, or is that just police with the best of intentions trying to prevent panic and something just isn't newsworthy enough to be run on a you know from another major source and how decide that does it go down to the name? Did you guys see that their remaking maniac cop? What is that

seen mania, carpets like up like a franchise from the eighties written. The murderer is a cop, the maniac. the it like are known, and I just a maniac. Unhinged lunatic with some jason voorhees ask supernatural abilities, nicholas winning. Revenue did the much maligned neon demon which I quite enjoy and drive, and. meanwhile, rising and bronze, and well that he's he seems to be going down the sloppy road a little further these days- and this is definitely no exception. So before that, because one diesel shouts, I think it's time, she asked our first shoutout goes out to shannon who says: hey guys on the topic of you ever forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you ve covered the cash land room incident. I only just heard about it myself today and I think you'd find it fascinates.

Well. Thank you so much you. I've never heard of this ban of your this uh yeah yeah. This is one of the only u f well. This is one of very few. U f, o cases that actually resulted in litigation eu in the nineteen eighties. In the u s, people, insisted that they not only saw something multiple witnesses but that it damaged their health. What and where was this so this occurred in dayton? Texas? I think that's a, I think, that's a really interesting topic for us to delve into for sure, because we do have a pretty solid, solid, solid mass of court cases. So thank you so much rain in Sheehan and that's an excellent suggestion. Who's next wales. Next, we have a shout out for kiara says

hey, Matt and Ben and Noel actually knows on here, but that's okay. I don't hold it against the chiara who hails from texas, and she says I am writing this- to bring to your attention the recent computer attack nicknamed ransomware. I think it was actually called wanna cry and ransomware is the type of type of vibe that it is aware that holds your data hostage and you have to pay out in bitcoin banks and with as it is sufficiently frightening and seems to have come out of absolutely nowhere. There's no doubt You ve already got wind of it, but I think it couldn't hurt, provide you a request: the new ransom, where virus essentially what I would call on full blue screen. Computer malware virus has been crippling average computer users, but particularly companies and corporations by overtaken computer systems and blocking users access to their fight in search engines centrally acting in the way a blue screen would rendering the computer useless

being impassable unless the victim of the virus pays three hundred bitcoin remove the equivalent of around seven hundred and thirty six thousand dollars american miles so the explanation. The everyday blue screen and formerly referred to as the blue screen of death is protection fall initiated by windows in the case of the operating system collapses with the virus does essentially mimics that function with one key difference: it seizes access to every file and every computer function until the ransom is paid. The x Current theory is that at least one of the perpetrators behind this is it am or windows employee, and I know that windows actually patched this right or they caught it pretty early, and so a lot of people were spared it, but it definitely did wreaks havoc and she says she's anxious to hear. but we have to say about it and I would like to give condolences to other hospitals, colleges, businesses, banks,

railway systems and absolutely everyone who is victim to this virus. In any way, it can't be easy. I agreed that's absolutely pretty brutal. One really interesting thing here to me is that if you are going to be paid in bitcoins for a ransomware like this, even though it's a crypto currency and it's protected in a lot of ways, it is trackable. So at any point like they know, investigators know exactly what accounts the bitcoins will be paid to, and they can monitor them in real time and as soon as someone tries to take those bitcoins, now in transfer them into cash in some way or some usable form of currency you're, going to know exactly where it went. So I don't. I don't know the. I don't understand the logic behind it, but maybe there's a there's like a key. Here. There are missing william, maybe there's some sort of like vps, ask way of redirecting you now that the digital trail

or maybe there is a yeah there's a secrecy parameter. I think I care, I think, your concept of this being to some degree in inside job, in that the perpetrator may have used some. they learned internally threec this havoc. I think that's fascinating. I liked it delve into it, I'm also tempted to agree that there would be We have to be a way for the money to be laundered. Somehow otherwise no one would ask for that currency in a criminal currency. Several advantages over more orthodox were establish forms of currency, so that be a good one to dive into, and you know I think it. It speaks very highly two cars character that she took the time to give her condolences to the organisations and individuals

fact it by this her. So thank you for writing. In our final shout out of the day, comes from trent entrenched, says hello, guys a top o this was. I thought this very interesting when you didn't That's miss her elbow guys, a topic I thought of wine. Recently, listened your pie costs on a placebo effect. It was stated in the I cast the d. A severe burn victim would not benefit from a placebo. I would have to disagree I've heard all my life of the power of someone talking the fire out of a bird mainly use. This is a pain relief. It is a secret that can only be passed, from man to women or women to man. The two cannot be blood related check out info into the foxfire books. I was told that my great grandfather was able to every child in a hospital that had been burned over large part of his body. This may not be a placebo, any regional context, but it is a case of how powerful the mind can be good luck

ah so from you as an armchair folklore, as this is fascinating idea of talking the fire out of a bird I read a lot, maybe too much, and I have not read about this. There is a foxfire folklore series and perhaps it is mentioned in there, in which case I am going to return to it. Thank you. So much for these are all excellent suggestions. Regime appreciate your time. So, thanks to tiara, shannon entrance- and this includes our eyes, but now and that's the end of this classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get into contact thus in a number of different ways, one of the best is to give us a call or numbers one. Eight, three: three std w whitey k. If you don't want to do that, you can see. So good old fashioned email. We are.

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