Neither I'm sack wrath and I'm gonna phase on we're real life best friends. We met playing fake life, best friends, Turk and JD on the sitcoms grubs. Twenty years later, we ve decided to re watch the series one have pursued at a time and put our memories into a pod cast. You can listen to it home, we're gonna, get all our special guess. Friends, like sour chalk, John C Mckinley meal Flynn, Judy raise show create a bill. Lords editors, writers and even prop masters would tell us about what inspired the series and how we became a family. You can listen to the pond cast fake doctors, real friends with Second Donald on the high heart, radio, up apple podcast and wherever you get your mug CAS S gain, and I'm excited to welcome you brand new season us on land and Sunland pact. We have an amazing aroused her talent. This isn't, I promise you, you don't want to miss one single episode, don't miss some man,

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From you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't want you to know a production of, I hope, radios, stuff works. Welcome back to the show I name is Matt know is not here, but will be returning soon. They call me, then we are joined as always without super producer, Paul mission Control, deck and, most importantly, you or you would you are here- and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know this. We ve been doing this check in at the beginning of the show. We hope that you check in as well when you before you dive into the strange bizarre and sometimes terrifying things. We explore here ass, a Louis yeah, so Matt yeah good,

yeah. That's some sound to firms. Are you just released issue? oh yeah, I did yes, I didn't. I assisted in the production. Slash creation of a show, called noble blood. It is now available, is number three on the charge or unknown itunes. Congratulations! Yeah! That's all! It's errand, making Dana Schwartz in Trevor Young! Congratulations Paul how you doing out they're gonna thumbs up some up stylish, a right from mission control I wanna brings up before we get to. Deep into this. I just finished MR robot season. Three. Finally, and you know we have a bit of a history with echo, we did a couple episode surrounding season to have masks. We do you. I have one sitting in my room and when I watch the show I always put it on, which is that. Too weird now. Let us him that's great. Ok, cool just bring celebrated up. I was excited that the next one is supposedly coming out this year.

Yes, I heard I heard no of bill still have Rami Malik, I imagine nights Ilsa going to talk about maybe a sensitive subject to some people who find themselves polluted a partisan rain these dinner in the western sense, and we want to hear your opinion. So as always, if there's something that you to tell us in your not near a keyboard at the moment, just pause. This episode will wait for you and call us directly. Yes a collar number. It is one each three three as t d W. Why day, when I about this conversation with Mr Robot is that it will. Were kind of foreshadowing, something oh come into play later right, yeah, without fully saying it rights right and there's this character within the union. Will there a couple but there's one in particular in the universe of Mr Robot, that I find that maybe you will to has some similarities to our

best of honor for infamy our person of interest there. We go there. Your appeal, I today Mr robot concerns shadowy forces working in secret, conspiring, ripe The power behind the throne and its often said in, fiction and nonfiction alike that the true power of a nation, a kingdom or an empire isn't usually the face its often not the person on the throne. It's the people behind that person, the folks you see, standing silently behind a king, a primary Mr President, as they deliver a speech they probably did not write today. Episode is about one such character. One of the most influential people in the history of modern. U S! Politics! Henry Kissinger! let's go to the beginning, Henry Kissinger was born Heinz Alfred Kissinger on May twenty, seventh nineteen twenty three in a place called Firth Germany. He was

of two sons born to Paula, Stern Kissinger and Louis Kissinger. Now father- was a teacher and There was this group of people there to power called them at ease, and when that occurred, he lost his job and his entire career. You know the Nazis, of course, we're carrying on the orders of Mr Adolf Hitler, and they of course begin prosecuting jewish people throughout Germany, in countries all surrounding Germany and the Kissinger's were in fact jewish and their family. I guess the larger family saw saw the effects of this first hand. Now, of course, Henry was just a little boy at the time and he's he seemed to be a better student, at least to his parents, into the people around him. They knows he's a better student, then perhaps an athlete or you know someone who is gonna pursue some kind of physical career and, you know as the the

Anti Semitism was increasing their in Germany, where they were living. The whole family decided we have to get out of here and in nineteen thirty eight they ended up going to England and then not long after that they ended up going to the United States, which was a prescient move for any student of history. The thing once they reach the: U S, they ended up settling in New York City, which you may remember from several saucy commercials. Kissinger completed high school. There began taking night classes at city college with the intention of the coming counted a c p on what small things does history hinge? You know what I mean it could have gone a very different way. Can you imagine who Mississippi aid will see? I wanna hear what you think I have for so we worked his way through college went to a factory during the day, and then he would go

class during world war. Two. He joined the military and served in Germany. It was working in army intelligence. It is a bit odd right, cause he's from Germany, but you went to the United States and now he's going back to Germany to fight for the Americans or with as an American, well that that is you it seems counter intuitive, but it happens a lot, so I've got couple of friends whose fate these were originally from IRAN and I live in the U S, but because they spoke Farsi God jobs, translators and yeah, going back to the Middle EAST and the silly. I leave that they are. U S. Base but I got here just nook of course, we can't see anymore I understand that one- and this is a it's a big deal here. So and even though he was very young at the time when his family left her

somewhat young. When the family left Germany, he stood experienced, what, the in his home country, and then to leave and then get to go back and Sir, in the military for a country that's going to essentially attempt to liberate the country from which he fled. That's a big deal, o the big Are you kidding? Yes, he also some new and of air met here. Also didn't sit led by during his time in the service right, he actually saw combat yeah. He he got to experience. The battle of the bulge first hand, and if you don't know much about that, we won't go into it, but I would say: look it up its. It was a german offensive that occurred in the west and ST describes, as quote the deadliest and most desperate battle of the war in the west involved. Three, Armies three german armies. Dennis

we were attacking over the course of the quite awhile and again there's. His historian is biographer Ferguson NEO Ferguson, I believe, is his name. He describes it as Henry Kissinger experienced heavy shelling first hand and again these are. These are big experiences for a a growing person. You know someone who's coming into their own. Having this kind occur to them in that's, not all that happened during the war rights. He also had the stark and terrifying heartbreaking revelation that all of his family members that stayed in Germany were dead. He witnessed the horrors of the Holocaust he was present during the liberation of a concentration camp. Following the war. He remained in Europe as an instructor Please call the European Command intelligent school. Also in Germany,

and then in eighteen, forty seven, he returns to the U S he goes to Harvard and in rules there and he graduated in the class of nineteen. Fifty any had a degree in government pretty and sing stuff there right so he's changing course, quite a bit from those original aspirations of becoming an accountant again, these experiences that are changing him. He He continued to studies as a graduate student and ended up earning a masters degree in nineteen, fifty two and then eventually his Phd in fifty four, and he was also teaching at the the Harvard University and here's usin important note. So we always have to be very careful when attempting to ascribe personal motives to to an individual and we we know that something happened, something funds We changed his life during. His experiences in world war, two he

became someone with a mission we like the historians, research have conjectured here on. What's What is resolute, moments were, and was a pretty good gases, but, regardless of specific instance. It was that was the big change post, or he is no longer interested in account. Or perhaps if we want to wax a bit poetic, he is concerned with a different sort of accounting, oh, yes, he is concerned with what he sees as moral accounting right preventing. Oddly enough, the horrors of world war, two fighting, for what he and he's alive fighting for what he would see the greater good and disparate, into his career in academia right. So, as you mentioned, he earned his Phd in nineteen fifty four between one thousand nine hundred and fifty two and one thousand nine hundred and sixty nine

Harvard international seminar. This way, a study organisation in which advanced students along with professor can research and contribute to discussions it sort of a niece and think tank which hands a lot in grad schools and in this kind of environment and position lets him start making relationships that he would eventually use later on in his career right right end, and it may surprise some of us to learn. Just how much policy here in the United States is written by. Professors in academic roles starts proposals. It starts with research, right and studies or capital, a capital, L capital E capital, see it's a process through which cause little a capital, l, capital e capital, see it's a process through which corporations dictate policy for better or worse

I'm just saying there doesn't, because a politician is a fan of something doesn't mean they actually route it any more than a prime minister president, giving a speech means actually wrote it ultimately, we are going to learn here that power many times and in many ways is developed personal relationships, more than a lot of other ways ripe absolute, absolutely which is a failure. Of the human species, because lessons. The in active meritocracy, but that's a whole other thing bag badgers here the point For this part, this is where Kissinger gets his taste of being a power behind the throne is visited by tons of international figures that, as you had met her later deal with it governmental capacity. He d

in the council on foreign relations, any publishes something called nuclear weapons in foreign policy, and this gets him. Some bona fides street cried. He is now seeing as a leading expert on international relations and national defence policy, and then he gets involved with the Rockefellers, oh yeah. He has eighteen months of work and what This thing called the Rockefeller Brothers fund. He actually directed it in nineteen, fifty six and I it had had this special studies project. Okay, now just listen! This is programme developed to investigate possible domestic and international problems? Ok, I hear what you're saying to me in the gate possible domestic and international problems. Then in nineteen fifty seven he became a lecturer at Harvard he's. You know tat. King too,

to the students like he's, changing, orb or perhaps influencing the way students are thinking, and eventually he gets promoted to a professor in eighteen, sixty two and again he is able to teach others, some of the things that he's learning and the ways he's viewing the world already right and also during this time he joined other international and domestic organizations and think tanks. He sought the National Security Council, the arms control Disarmament Agency and the Rand Corporation, while it did, did you just go, up in all the things we ve mentioned, thus far, that he's joining up council on foreign relations relations, the Rand Corporation. We ve talked about a lot of these right. Yes, they are the source of what could possibly be called a lot of real conspiracies, not theories so we'll just laundry list real, quick, the the rest of his the broad strokes of his career sure so he's working full time at Harvard from sixty to sixty five and sixty five. He began

the consultant through the State Department whose their Vietnam consultant forums. Five, fifty nineteen sixty seven, he visits Vietnam several times more of eighteen, sixty eight, he was working as campaign guru for then Governor Nelson Rockefeller, who was running for the EU, we can nomination for the presidency against. Richard Nixon. Yet you happy in reaching Ex himself and despite the fact that Nixon did defeat Rockefeller Rockets, I contacted Nixon was like hey We don't know exactly what they said, something along the lines like hey good game Bro. By the way you know you had me hustle out there. I want to give a shout out to my boy h, Kay, put him on the team, get him off the bench and that's how Kissinger ended up heading the National Security Council. Kissinger already

a plan laid out. He did not like the: U S, foreign policy toward the USSR, the Soviet Union. He thought that day. Had been too nice essential. They have been kid gloves. They had not been consistent and ass. We Consistency is a few deal any international relationship, so he said, look let's be honest, the Soviet Union, there are the big bad, there are mean rival. There are mean opponents, but you gotTA respected you know what I mean data he was, he was going to same way, said, look taken seriously dangerous to nuclear power and one big early successes. Was the Institution of DE, which is z relationships ease, intentions, saying: look we both know the late the chessboard here we're probably never going to be friends but wish

would communicate, and we should do our best not to blow the world, while we fight without nuclear weapons, some would say. That's pretty smart That's a good way to look at things, let's not blow each other up. We get it. We know who we are I understand that gap and that's That's a very clear cut and thing ripe and its In its a powerful thing, even even in a microcosm level. Some of us may have had that occur in our personal wives. Yes, certainly, but it is far more nuanced than that right in order like that that's the ideal or that's. The baseline goal was nobbler each other up. We understand who we are underneath that is just was just a swarm of wasps arise- and I absolutely I saw One of the things he does is the

successful agreement, something called salt or strategic arms limitations treaty, the suit the union and the USA. Ok, we're gonna limits the number of nuclear weapons. We have we're. Going to get rid of them ever because we both know who we are the butts You know we will you promise not to have millions of them, because that's just the creatures. And when they, when they signed this agreement, He was seen as someone again working for the greater good and the greater good being avoiding nuclear annihilation or a nuclear war, and now, you will hear people argue whether he is a hero or a villain. He used to speak about once a year here in Georgia and I believe he hasn't done that for a number of years, but you could go visit. Visiting speak a different places and

He is treated very much as an elder statesman, a policy emperor. You know a king behind a throne, but regardless what you might think of his work there, no arguing that he's been anything other than massively successful his personal life Queen January twenty seventeen January, twenty eighteen he pulled in and asked me fifty eight million dollars. This makes him I for one of the highest paid politicians in the world, excepting accepting it dictators were Putin. I figure you have people who set that number themselves essentially by the state or that whatever the state pays them right. His estimated network is said to be a hundred and eighty five million. According to the publication people with money, some looks regard him as a hero. They say he's a man who helped secure the: U S, position as the hedge Ahmad as the premier global superpower. Others, however, consider him and irredeemable villain. Why?

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did it numerous activities that could be called at the very least illegal, also been the sub. Numerous conspiracy theories- let's just, laundry list some of the illegal actions that he was directly involved it absolutely, let's two, nineteen sixty nine and seventy in Cambodia now Henry Kissinger is considered. I guessed one of the one of the main architects of the secret bombing that occurred there in Cambodia this. This bombing itself played a really important role in bringing about the committee Rouge that we discussed before on the show, certainly on Youtube as well bring them about as a power there in Cambodia as ITALY and unintended side effect of taking the power that already existed in that country attending to eliminate the

communist threat, they they saw yet in let's just go in and say this at the top here many times we ve seen over the history of the United States that there is a major enemy that we will identify and attempt to eliminate, or even if it's just ideological and then by militarily or through a coup, eliminating that There are these unintended consequences that come about because of the vacuum of power that exists in whatever that places where some group or desperate or person will come through and just grasp that power and that's what we see happening in Cambodia, nineteen sixty nine seventy get yet at least forty thousand people died. As a result of this, the bond itself that he was the architect right any entered into the fire negotiations with North Vietnam. He was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize for this and as critics

finer ironic and reported leaving. Kissinger himself was like I don't know, of this yeah wool, especially when you think about the committee Rouge and in what happened afterwards, because because of them, millions of people were slaughtered. Yes, absolutely, let's go October, nineteen sixty nine. He had thing called madmen theory and that in theory. Now the benefit of retrospect here is weird and hilarious. It was essentially a pr branding campaign whereby Kissinger wanted to me leaders of communist nations think that rich Nixon was insane the echoes like logarithm. Basically, I like, like large, her life kind of crime.

Person. You know if you go left is going right is launching a nuke. This is I remind you of something, maybe maybe, but in this case it's an act. The ice the I mean in this case it is, it is calculated thing and it was of great benefit to in back door diplomatic conversations, because wanting a lotta diplomats do? Is they say look? We are like each other were just we happen to be on different sides of a conversation just trying to the best for the people we represent, and you know I get it like. I work directly with Nixon and he is not so I dont know what he's gonna do. I feel like its best for us to work this out between us and quickly before he get, I mean he might have a bad day. He's got that football thing that has the codes in it, it's crazy, so yes, What kind of late Billy report lake here as a diplomat, you're sort of distancing yourself from

policy in lake, I'm here to help you buddy, so so effective years, something called operation giant Lance Nixon again, Nixon sends eighteen be fifty two bombers with nuclear warheads to the border of the Soviet Union, the eastern border. They hoping that madman theory is Believable enough the soviet government will panic and say and pressures Oxy North Vietnam to accept peace demands ends Could you say this is brilliant sign up. Could you say it's just it's ugly? There is a bully tat. Take but bully tactics torn apart.

The course in a lot of these things, especially for plain real politic and yellow and your playing with nukes ash plane with nukes. That's the problem yet and then in the end, North Vietnam is victorious, and you know in the Paris He's accords her anyway right so nineteen seventy one, at least in the case of I want to know, in the case of giant. What was Thousands of people did not die? Yes in nineteen, seventy one, he supported Pakistan as it massacre over a million people during what was called the Bangladesh Liberation WAR. He also am. The massacre of Bengali Hindus and he sneered at Americans, who quote bleed for the time being Ghali's that's accord. To Professor Gary Bass, who was writing in political magazine about this back also says that Kissinger's policy was again oriented toward what he saw. The greater good,

Pakistan, he might say, as some imperfections, including you know me. The green millions of people by It also not communist in it good to have that chest. Peace in play too. Prevent the spread of communism. Now remember he's working closely with Richard Nixon during a lot of this stuff and he ends up being one the primary reasons that Nixon begins, wiretapping, everybody in recording, everybody and he ends up being a part of Watergate or he's involved at least, but we can leave that for perhaps another episode You should just know that he was involved in Watergate and wiretapping. Yes, yeah. That definitely happened. He also aided Indonesia under the brutal dictatorship of Suharto. I in terms of financial aid and military funding,

in seventy three. He overthrew the democratically elected Salvador Allende and Chile, installing the dictator, Augusto Pinochet, yeah, and remember, he didn't do it with his bare hands like that, but man that guy made it happen through. You know. I guess engineering is a good way of what had been he he made. It occur with a voice right. He puppeteers. Yes, so they also supported operation condor operation. Conduit was a campaign designed to get these secret police a fascist dictators in South America too. Together support crews on non fascist countries, and facilitating drug dealing in the region as a waiter, provide funds for these kinds of activities. He was. He was a fan of Pinochet because he was not a communist.

He was also a fan of the Junta in Argentina. At the time we also found according to documents were released in twenty fourteen, there he signals in the nineteen seventy to Argentina's right wing military leaders, something along the lines of hey. You know dissenters. Just a real pill, wasn't guys. If you need to crack down commies in those pinkos in those hippies. Were you don't worry? I we don't really have a problem with that. We just want you to know We have a problem with it and that became implicit support of what is called the dirty war? The dirty war resulted in the deaths of more than thirty thousand people and one of the craziest things about those documents that new mentioned Ben Release and twenty fourteen is it. There are accounts from several for one of whom was Robert who is the ambassador to Argentina in it?

conversation that heads Kissinger had with a foreign minister there, named gazetted and ok? So, apparently, this foreign minister, was. It was really afraid that if they were doing this dirty war, there are going to carry this stuff out in there and continue doing it. They were afraid that the United States would end up cracking down on their activities in their government in general as a way of fighting against these human rights violations that were occurring right right and then Kissinger says to him. I mean this is paraphrasing, but you don't you don't need to worry about that. That's not gonna happen right, so it is maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but it was a breakfast that resulted in the death of thirty thousand. But it wasn't really they were going to- they were probably going to make the dirty war happen. Anyway, Kissinger in this case knew about it and did not stop it and gave them

would have an attaboy yeah What's good one more example: in December of nineteen seventy five, he approved the indonesian invasion of EAST Timor salting in a hundred thousand. Two hundred and eighty debts conflict relate doesn't have to be. Licked. Related deaths could be anything from starvation or disease related to the horrors of war. What we see is, it doesn't have to be an actual little gun shot to the head or death by bombing war brings death in many forms. Let's put that in perspective, So we said a hundred two hundred and eighty thousand people died in conflict related deaths, three, hundred thousand people were forced to relocate, maybe now the biggest number into who consider the total population of the country at the time

the only six hundred and eighty two thousand human being, so that's over half of the people were relocated and add ons about the number of people who died, That's that's! A rough move, their this task, Massive death that, spin, indirect, attributed to Kissinger scenes. It seems like one a tab to add up over time. You know what I mean here: and again there are a lot of people who would say now hold on and we'll get to them. After word from our sponsor. Hi, I'm Bob Roth see you of the Deva Lynch Foundation and a transcendental meditation teacher for over fifty years, I've taught many thousands of people to meditate from solid Many clients to students in inner city, schools, No, I'm bringing some of what I ve learned straight to your ears. With my new podcast stay, calm lot of peoples technical about meditation. I would

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Now hold on its fair to say, governments are big and we need to avoid the lazy fallacy blame in all these events on a single man he might about his hands tied. He might have not been aware that this is all happening at all. Right right. You know it is true. We have been pretty rough on Kissinger already saying that he engineer at all these things, basically blaming him for all these deaths. No. Maybe that really isn't all that fair. I mean maybe the the problem that experts looting people who are applied, Kissinger's actions disagree with the idea that he was unaware of these things, Kristen Higgins,

recognised for not a number of other things he's polemical. He was in his time a huge proponent of atheists and so on right. That may be one of the ways his best known to the shore. I am quite hilarious in his digs of other people. Cantankerous in and also hated or loved. Essentially, absolutely he had no chill dago. His four Higgins had no chill one where the other he wrote called the trial of Henry Kissinger, and in this book he says the degree Micromanagement revealed in Kissinger's memoirs forbids the idea that anything of importance took place without his knowledge or permission of nuts is this more true than his own individual involvement in the bombing of neutral Cambodia and so that's that one of the many arguments in full disclosure Higgins is not a fan of kissing dragon. It's pretty pretty obvious and away. He writes about him, but

people who were like you know, few eggs and sell GEO political omelettes work. Even there. They will say that Kissinger did this. It didn't just and when he was off on vacation on a Friday According to a guy named Gregg Grand in a professor of history at New York University, this means it quote: back in the envelope count wooded tribute tree, maybe four million Deston Kissinger's actions, but that number probably under counts his victims, yikes That's history, history, professor in New York, university saying that you should probably tribute three or four million deaths to this man, and this doesn't even touch on the conspiracy theories. Oh no, my God again when you are a part of all of these different organizations when you are essentially the power behind a government, or at least you know,

If it's a Disney movie he's horror, I forget all the main thing far type character, but the the counselor that sits next to the king, that whispers dark things. Into the king or queen, ear, I mean. That's essentially, that's. That's really wittily down, but that's a lot of what he ends up, doing whispering to two other people in power who make the decisions I think when you, when you have that position, you are going to be at least target by people who see conspiracies. If not act. Lee taking part in conspiracies absolutely well. Well said well put so as you mentioned. This is due to his membership in these enormously. If Winchell Bodies is a member of the boy human growth, a member of the council for relations, a member of the builder Bur Group, a member of the Aspen Institute, a participant in the Trilateral commission. We have epoch

I'm pretty much all of those except they believe the Aspen institute. We also need to mention that the racist and anti semitic conspiracy theories come into play here too, the harp an Kissinger due to his jewish backgrounds, and now you read me these sorts of things saying that he is a key player in some sort of secretive jewish cabal. This gets tied into those allegations of international banking cartels and so on, but while the jewish conspiracy claptrap has been thoroughly and thankfully debunked, there is bad news here, the bad news is that banking cartel conspiracies do have sand. Some of them are very, very, very true, and it is highly likely that Henry Kissinger ran into something like banking led conspiracies during his career. Many did want to be an accountant allow

when you think about their identity we would have was it goes into. One hinges on his accounting me. That's a very good point. Man I saw the he is he's been both a participant in genuine, conspiracies and subject to regulation on other conspiracy theories ripe and for a lot of people. The big question is at what point do policies become war crimes they conspiracies that he created and enacted at what point They go beyond beings, greater for the purpose of national security and become something that you should prosecute someone for, and what really is the difference between those two things right, whereas the line where is line?

Gunnar Mario Del Peril, a professor of international history and author of the eccentric realist, Henry Kissinger in the shaping of american foreign policy. Here He reacts in in a different way, throws or low cold water. On this he says, I am afraid that by the standard some of his critics have applied to Kissinger numerous posts. Nineteen, forty, five. U S, statesmen could be accused of crimes against humanity and that up perhaps to the vast majority of the leaders of modern, great powers, very good point right. Lake, at some point of view in charge of a country, are responsible for every bad thing that country does gosh. It's true, that's kind of it, of truth, I guess We have to face a little bit here right, absolute, we have to face it had on. Let's also lets also continue just a little bit because doping Oh, doesn't believe that Henry Kissinger was very.

Good at his job. To be honest, he says he not some sort of arch manipulators, his Kissinger was simplistic binary even on. Form during his tenure, he was dogmatic, here too the zero sum game of international politics and then dope era, In short, it wasn't a war criminal. He was in a very deep or sophisticated thinker. He read the challenge, the intellectual votes or fads of the time once in government, he displayed a certain intellectual laziness wow! That's enough thing. That's an interesting. Take right that saying that same look. The argument here is almost like: if he's we're criminal everyone else's and also the It's not real. He wasn't that good at what he did near wasn't as bigger part of any of this its eye. I wonder about the motivation there.

Because it certainly not a view that is not a view of Kissinger that you see very often right. Again when we kind of it out at the top there he is a lot of times. Seen as this war criminal or you know, a hero and being a lazy government guy. That's just sit around not doing much being uninformed yeah don't hear every art, and I was thing about the two thousand sixteen democratic debates just really quick of society area. It was win. Oh, I will not get me wrong. I believe it was Hillary Clinton and- It was a discussion between the moderator, Hillary Clinton. Bernie Sanders and they were discussing Henry Kissinger and Hillary Clinton was a quarter of Kissinger and at some point its brought up that. Yes, she said I, oh yes I'll, take the advice essentially or the council of

Kissinger? I you know, I believe him too be very informed in a guy, you know and his opinion I value essentially and then Bernie Sanders said the opposite, like no, absolutely and laid out some of the war crimes, things at least in very, very brief ways in just said. No absolutely won't take advice from this person and they hadn't really fairly fairly brief, but interesting exchange about him on the stage, oh, at a debate like yeah Kissinger is seen as a tutor gallery Clinton yeah which I think would prize some people who are more on the conservative side, because you know you assume politics, offers from that false dichotomy. Here, in the U S end people would say: okay, the sky did a bunch of stuff under

the Richard Nixon administration. So why is he advising wiser counselor to Hillary Clinton? he's a point where you know you have to ask yourself fingers on a hand right beer. Well in Hillary Clinton also makes a very rational point here, which is this This man has such a wealth of experience in dealing with foreign powers, as well as the United States as a power. Why would you not listen to him from an experience perspective, I mean that does seem like a rational point. The question then becomes one of not just experience but of accomplishment, success or lack thereof, shore and alignment, unlike what Are you going to align yourselves with that kind of power? I guess, if you're running, for something like the officer president anyway, just one throw that out to shirk right now regard

was again of what we may or may not think about Harry Kissinger's individuals, judges, Argentina, Chile, France and Spain are still seeking his testimony regarding crimes committed by: U S, client regimes in South America and the nineteen seventy, those? U S back dick leadership through mentioned earlier. When he was in London in April of two thousand one british, activists sought his arrest on charges related to the Vietnam war. Even in the U S, he was the subject of a civil suit, but by the family of actually and military chief murdered in the seventies. As part, of the? U S attempt to block the election of Salvador Allende? Now some? people doubtlessly see the criticism of Henry Kissinger as unfounded or even offensive, and calling to win a war criminal is a very we charge a term that actually rarely used today in political discourse because

hauling someone a war. Criminal automatically implies that they have killed massive amounts of people through either their direct actions or their policy decisions Nguyen because then it becomes an argument of. Is that war crime, even though they killed all these people is that a war crime do they do it in a way that would constitute that right exactly and we have tons of international law on that very subject, however, It is true that Kissinger simply cannot travel to certain countries for fear of arrest and this is also some in which he is not unique, amongst various various former politician, and bureaucrats as we work today's episode, Henry Kissinger is alive, is ninety seven years old. You, will likely never be prosecuted for his. Actions

some argue that he should not be as the U. S is historically opposed to any sort of international legal action against serving or former U S, politicians. This is where this is, where something called the American Service Members Protection ACT of two thousand to comes into play. It. Essentially it's a law that be hilarious or terrifying to some of us listening outside of the? U S, it's a law, in the United States that authors is the use of military force to liberate any american or citizen of the Eu S ally country being held the International criminal court, that's located in the Hague has been called the Hague invasion clause people in Europe, ITALY and the Netherlands. Obviously huh This idea of the law provides for the withdrawal of U S: military assistance from countries that are with the ACC treaty. It risks

It's? U S, participation in you and peace, keeping and less the? U S is immune from prosecution so and and there is a provision that says the president- can change his or her mind on this whenever due to natural interest, wow vow. So if instance, stodgy international past catches up with them and is he is arrested and taken to the international criminal court? The? U S has long the box. That says this country can send an invasion force to physically rescue him in extricate him from Europe, while well Paul whatever you did. You know it's a much more three dimensional thing that occurred there reasons behind the reasons you did it, but in the end, we're gonna get you back, buddy

and that also is a terrible example. Because Paul is he row he is, and he is known as a gem domestically and abroad, but one thing is for sure. Henry Kissinger did conspire to do numerous things that were, at the very, very least unethical. Already pool he actively prove please created and participated in a number of conspiracy to advance what he saw as the greater good for the. U S on a global stage. That is true. It's not a theory That's not a person's opinion. That is a fact that big action, Was it all worth it where we maybe it will go to the grave we want to know we hundred years. Just really looking back at it. I think in generally, when someone passes, I see

Lee the harsh realities of a person's life can be viewed. More fully, at least by society, by history, and we can actually talk about it in a way that we can. When they were still living So I have a feeling you know and unfortunately, for Henry Kissinger problem. Pretty soon he won't be with us and They will get a little more light shed on exactly what happened. Perhaps perhaps perhaps on the the graver them. Maybe it will go to the grave we to know what you think. Is it true that these sorts of things occur? do serve a greater good or is that an oversight Litigation, you know what I mean was Kissinger making the best if hard political decisions for the time or what

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