Entertainment is going alter. Sports are going I'll mobile gaming small businesses biggest names and music. All going ultra tune in to the horizon. Five g ultra show to find out by Elisabeth banks and now streaming ever rising dot com, splash, five g, the little birds its Mr Jim, and I would invite your kids to lessen the kid short stories. You see, kids, all around the world, listen

stories and send in their ideas in every single day. I create a brand new story about them. Finding treasure stopping the bad guy are flying on a unicorn if you're looking to cut down on screen time search for Miss sturgeon. So listen kid short stories on the I hurt radioactive apple pie, gas or wherever you get your podcast on April. Fourth, nineteen sixty eight Doktor Martin Luther king was shot and killed in Memphis. A petty criminal named James Array was arrested case closed James, Earl, Ray COM or the official story. Some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the MLK text. Tapes, the first two episodes are available on we're return, listen on the Iheart Radioactive Apple podcast or wherever you get your broadcasts from you

those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn Stop they don't want you to know a production of. I hope we hello welcome back to the show. My name is met. Our colleague and all is on an adventure, but he will return soon. They call then we are joined, as always with our super producer, Paul mission, control, deck and, most importantly, you You you are here, and that makes this this stuff. They don't want you to know that we said it before and the show regardless whether or not you live in the United states yourself. Regardless of your personal stance on politics policy law, Foresman or even pharmaceutical companies. Your hearing, this you are being affected by the consequent

is of a multigenerational war, not war on any specific country, any specific person even speak the ideologies, it's a warrant, a concept, a war on substances that themselves have no goals, belief or ideology. You me everyone we're all effect by the war on drugs. But how did we get here? What led us to this point? Where are we call, if we now, where will we be in the future? To answer this question, we wanted to go directly to one of the leaders in this field precision in this field: Ethan, NATO men even think so much for joining us on the show today were quite excited to speak with you hey my pleasure. man, it's great- to see a great to meet. You been, oh yes, so some people may know you from your podcast psycho active many other we'll know your face and your voice from a TED talk that you gave back in the that's got around him. You know how many millions of views at this point, but a

majority the people, if they use bell rings when they hear Ethan Needlewoman. It's because you are the founder of the drug policy alliance, and I just wonder if you could give us maybe a short run down who you are because I feel like I can't introduce you properly Sure matter happy to do that was I basically spent most of my at all life working to end the war on drugs, and now I'm gonna be sixty five in in a few months. and the work on this. Since my twenty cell army base you the real synopsis, It is you know, graduate school. I started studying international drug control, gotta security clearance from the State Department, rural class, report on drug late and money laundering, interview drug enforcement agents. The? U S or the countries all around the world rose. Some books about this issue became a professor

prince the late eighties right when the drug war was going. Apsley crazy, like Mccarthyism on steroids, and I stood up and said this is crazy. Guy few fifteen minutes of fame. There was an emerging drug policy reform movement in those days few years late. I get a call out of the blue from a philanthropist financier named George Soros, whose interests this issue we kind of heightened off, so I left, Princeton University started up this institute and ninety four eventually into them. is it a good merges? Is another organisation becomes a drug policy alliance? I ran at first seventeen years until I stepped down about four years ago. At that point, rural policy alliance was biggest leading drug policy reform organization, not just in the U S around the world and during the course it at it. May we guide deeply involved in things like ballad initiatives to legalise marijuana first for medical purposes in a more broadly weed. I deeply involved

trying to roll back the role of the drug war in mass incarceration and our other me- Your priority was making a serious commitment to treating drug use and addiction as a health issue, not a criminal issue, which meant everything to trying to reduce suspect these renewal exchange programmes to overdose prevention into introducing Americans took the ideas that were being implemented in Europe and elsewhere, while so there was so much there s a so many little things that I want to jump on. Ben of sorrow we needed just take over for a second year by year through them George Soros and he's one of these guys that just has so many rumours circulating about him because of his you, no obvious wealth and power boylike. What was that interaction like I just I'm so curious personally about that. As I do I didn't know, there is a connection there. You know I'll tell you mad at me with with George, when I first got to call the summer. Ninety two almost thirty years ago, you know he was a guy,

in that well know when he was more. Noise was fires, but he had been the key philanthropist funding, the dissidents and the opposition to socialists, dictators have been former Soviet Union Eastern Europe and would it happen was communism. It fall in much more quickly than here anybody expected and he had been the key private individual, helping bring about its downfall. He was very committed to the ideals of an open society right fighting to tell a terrorism from the left and the right as though he then began asking the question Well, he had always thought that America was the model of what an open society is, but it now seems you know. The question is what in Amerika was incomplete? then with open society ideals and basically, when the first things at whom between the eyes was the war on drugs, and so he reached out and you know that point I was all of the young professor Princeton, but I was already the most prominent person, probably in the world, speaking out against the drug war and in favour of looking at things like legal. Is

shouldn and decriminalization on together we hit it off and it's funny now to think tat. You know, now I did a fight. Is radical, left finder. But in point of fact, when I first met, George, I think is politics. If act, he said so they were more almost like liberal. public kid or always no one in the days is you guys made. I know, but Scoop Jackson was a famous Democrat who reputable very anti communist. What kind of progressive on social issues and George really identified as a kindness Jackson, human rights democratic, may be liberal republican, very much on identified in the way is now, and so he and I essentially developed to partnership ere it all. He agreed to back my starting an organisation and funding grants, programmes and doing all sorts of things like that and in terms of his current reputation, there really began I'd say around two thousand and three, when George was simply horrified at the Bush administration's Warren

Kara and all the implications of this thing he saw what we were doing with the invasion of Iraq. He saw all the rhetoric around the anti terrorism stuff is really being over the top and not reflective of open society ideals and its at that point. We start to get much more politically involved in supporting democratic. Until then, when he hadn't been much of a player. But if you jump forward now I mean he's become a bit more progressive in his views. But what's really guideline is the demon zation of sorrows by you know by the right. I mean it's notable that if you look it's not just the people on the right in the United States demonize sorrows, its put it right Oh it's! You know! What's his name, the pride of the President of Hungary, it's the right wing, authoritarian dictators around the world who ate sorrels because he's in supporting the Orange Revolution in their other revolutions in the former Soviet Union. He's the one fighting for freedom is the number one funder of human rights.

in the world and fortune, we for me, because if I think our relationship because of his commitment, even though his support for drug policy form has only represented. Maybe two per cent of the brilliant a year that he and his foundation are given away. It's always looms large in his consciousness. And especially the earlier years. I think in the public perceptions of him as well. So I'm not Thank you now. Ninety, while still going he's an extraordinary human being, who's gonna go down in history, for you know really fighting for open society. Ideals and in a wise, been demonize, I think would happen, is part of it may be. The name Soros you know is like a provocative name and everybody Cameron. I think you know sending out a Euro city out. You know anti sorrow stuff and saw, as some is also and yet I semitism you know the notion. Of course you would you happen to lose the jewish communist. You know goes back to the protocols of the others.

Zion. You know, you're the famous anti semitic tract of the late nineteenth early twentieth century. So there's some of that go in I Shame it's a shame, but I mean, if you look at the good. Let me books are being in about all the good he's died and it's really extraordinary around the world and the cock brothers hate him, which is always sign a me baby? It's a big complicated because there are issues like ending the drug war and criminal justice reform, and some foreign policy issues were actually George and the COPE bro, I will now is only the brothers. Now is basically charges David died where they actually see eye to eye on something So I do a lot of big issues there opposed to one another. But I'll tell you. There was a moment. You know one of the other famous right. Wingers is Grover Norquist. You know the famous anti tax was good government, so small we can try on a bathtub. Can a libertarian approach?

but Grover became an ally of mine on ending the drug work as he hates the drug war coming from a libertarian perspective, and I lived there, arranging for George Soros to speak to Grover Norquist. You know Wednesday morning. Breakfast group of you know leading right wingers in America, so part of what I've enjoyed has been. You know this kind of bringing the left and the right to gather in behalf of a good cause, like ending the war on drugs? No, that's it! That's important point too. I think. cause. It is something that requires massive collective action in a growing up in the generation of people like Matt or myself, the war on drugs was normalized right. You were born in You this this ongoing conflict with it with the law, propaganda. You know we had programs like dare in in public schools and so on. We

also had a lot of, I think, a lot of people, our generation- may be a lot of people listing today. Just hear the phrase war on drugs and immediate, we have some kind of vat associations, but don't real I understand the genesis of the situation that the? U S injured into earlier. You said Mccarthyism on steroids. It had. It is specifically of the war on drugs and that really that to me that that so Stuteley nails the situation and that so many people grew up in, but I think a lot of people have never investigated the origin of this situation the genesis the war on drugs, and could you even tell us in the audience a little bit about how how

All of all to wake me away, It's a well known, historical fact that for a time things like marijuana or coquet anywhere opiates were legal, you could buy and the counter medicinal beverage. Two euro com, a child's toothpick now those same sorts of substances can lead to draconian prison sentences and things like men. Tori Minimum. So so how did the? U? S? Evolve from that earlier point to the they sure will I'll try to make it is as a thumbnail sketch as much as possible. Basically, if you think about, as you said, late nineteenth century cocaine, opiates opium, even heroin, that is created in the late eighty nine. These candidates were basically legal on throughout the United States, may other countries, and then the first prohibitions come about not because there is new

It is of their harms women that plays a small Raul. It's more about because of public perceptions of who uses or who is perceived to use you so since its so nobody's gonna criminalize. You know all these over there Opium- is called louder than this liquid opium so long as most consumers were middle class white women. You know in the eighteenth When these eighty nine he's good, nobody wanted to put you their anti grandma behind bars, but when opiates become associated with the chinese migrants coming in working long hours on the railroads in the mines would have you that's when these, Z. Amateurs, xenophobic, racist fears become dominance. You know it and in the media and the fear that what were these yellow man, these Chinamen gonna, do to our precious white women, alluring them into opium addiction and turning them to sex slaves in our opium dance, simply with cocaine right hey widely used Coca COLA, hey Cocaine, it it until nineteen hundred so far as we know the problems with Coca COLA, ditch and nineties when

worse with cocaine in it than they are now with caffeine in it right. But when cocaine, yes to be perceived with deviant groups and especially with blacks in the south, and the fear that these black men with snorted white powder forget their proper place in society and go out and do bad things to our precious. Why women? That's when you get cocaine, prohibitions and ditto with Canada is right. You know it was in a big deal. But when it gets linked in the popular imagination, with mexican Americans mexican migrants in the South West in the West, in the second and third decades of the twentieth century. That when you get the Canada's prohibitions so that yes and color early stages of the war drove going on. Although back then, of course, the big war on drugs was alcohol. Alcohol prohibition, the temperance movement, the eighteenth amount in banning alcohol in nineteen nineteen and in the whole revolt. Against that leading The only amendment in american history to be repealed. You no alcohol prohibition by the twenty first, a member

in nineteen thirty three. So we have these people wars on drugs. The one that people oftentimes point too, is Richard Nixon declaring fifty years ago, drugs being poor. again, I mean number one and now, as you know, there were serves around heroin, but it was also part of his. You know: fears around the hippies and weed and LSD de intimacy, Leary and all this sort of stuff, and that was the big any to the war on drugs. But then, when in the seven, these is little Pirie where everybody gets chill and that's it period when I come of age right, I'm only twelve when the sixties end, but I'm graduating college at the end of the seventies, and I remember, being a college and laid seventies you know I went first to Miguel in Montreal into Harvard, and you know it was people get high. Nobody was all flipped out, Coquet was kind of around, but it was in a big issue. There was this kind of sensible period. Jimmy Carter proposed

as you know, a federal law, decriminalizing marijuana people are talking sense, but then what happens is on you know any type parents whom it starts up in the late seventies legitimate concerns about like one in ten high school kids getting high every day and nobody likes. You know high school, kids, waken and bacon, and so you have the beginnings. The Democrats starting getting fearful and then Reagan comes in and Reagan starts to got on the war on drugs and the rhetoric and see the political advantage, because in being able to kind of you know the dog whistles, you don't tell connecting it with fears around black people in crime without actually sounding outright like a racist, then you know this and then meriting crack cocaine. Nineteen eighties lend bias a famous basketball player, dies of a cocaine overdose and then there's a by partisan like let step up the penalties and that's nineteen. Eighty six. When I really be to date. The modern era of the war on drugs. minorities for cell

or possessing or for all Roma. For both I mean it's basically, what happens is that when you they start introduce penalties at the federal level and the states do the same thing of basically saying cocaine. Possession can put you into prison, maybe going of your shot, a treatment, but if you don't stop you're going to prison and you get policies for it you know sometimes one but autism in five years, even more for simple cocaine, possession a small amounts in four people selling it they're introducing penalties of ten twenty years. You know I mean it's crazy, in by the late nineteen eightys. I mean it is the number one fifty percent of Americans and public opinion polls, the same drugs is a number one threat to Amerika. I'm is that sort of thing It is a narrow line which nobody getting chill about AIDS, getting tied up the whole Warren Cocaine and it's not just older people's younger people right in the late seventies. I think fifty percent of all college freshmen

in favour legalizing marijuana by the late eighties. It's down to sixteen percent, so you I start teaching in prison in eighteen. Eighty, seven and I can- and I am amazed at how conservative my kids are when their taken a seminar with drug policy and half of them have marine smoked. A joint I mean it's a whole train, mission what goes on and when I use the phrase Mccarthyism on steroids, will you think, like you know, Mccarthyism was about the fear of communism right the fear of the Russians invading us to fear of communist spy. But the fact of the matter is the Russians were not laughing at our borders and there was not a communist spider every bed, but you could persuade America's to become hysterical and had engaged in these which Heinz were people be fired for past associations or not signing up to loyalty owes well war on drugs. Yes, there was a real problem with drugs coming from abroad and people getting addicted. And yes, there is a problem withdrawal

yours domestically in a fierce around kids, but in point of fact, the realities of the issue. It was not the kind of threat that was being depicting the popular imagination and would happen as you had right wing Republicans, most notoriously First drugs are a guy named William Bennet. You know under the first President Bush who see as this is a vehicle in which the right wing can play on the fears of middle class, american parents and get them to embrace use draconian policies and the Democrats who don't wanna, be accused of being soft on crime or soft drugs. As someone old timers, most especially a famous democratic, then Tipp, O Neill, the Massachusetts liberal congressmen who, as speaker of the house, you know they all joy. I'm bored, so we get this by partisan war on drugs and all the sudden America's prison population which had been so around the global average back in the seventies. It goes from five hundred thousand

people behind bars in eighteen. Eighty two two point: three million by the early two thousands we four percent of the world's population. We got twenty four or twenty per The world's incarcerated population were lacking a black people in a way that makes South Africa under a parasite. Look like nothing worked competing with the soviet gulags when it comes to rates of incarceration of black people right. So we embrace his policy of of of drug testing. The entire society try trying to do is drug testing is goals: the workplace, firing people not for being higher job budgets for having smoked a joint over the weekend were locking up people ruthless retreating drug users, if they were rapists and murderers, so that's the war on drugs that you know. That's the thing I've been spinning wheel. I like trying to repeal and roll back ever since and spoken with some very interesting peep, for your show psychoactive on this very topic and you know? I don't want it for

he's too hard in on the war on drugs. Are so many things we could discuss here, but I think, maybe your discussion with Larry Craster, the D D A I think he's the DNA in Philadelphia. Separate. That's right, you guess had here. some interesting things to say in euros actually had some background just about how, as a distant attorney. You can help to shape how some of these laws, even if they're on the books, how you're actually enforced tell me a little bit about what you guys discussed when it comes to work in the car you know how, with some of these drug laws, are enforced Rina yet Tell you that you know we often times people say you, don't follow the money and I'll explain the drug war, and you know there's some truth. To that I mean private corporations and you know prison guards. Unions are fighting for their jobs and an you know, police d,

in twenty, more money and all this sort of stuff, but actually the most venal element of the war on drugs and oftentimes been the prosecutors, the district attorney's, a? U S, attorneys right, a federal state and local prosecutors, and that's not about me that's about power, you know and that's about power. In terms of you, the more the tougher the laws are, the more you can co worse low level. You know people who are picked up on drug possessor level dealing to plead guilty, sometimes even if they're not right. I mean the more also in terms of the inner pursue relationship between the prosecutor, the defence attorney. I mean it just grossly shift the balance of power, a lotta prosecutors, one to run for public office, and so we Getting on the whole drug war, bandwagon is great for them, and so they have really been some of the most unaccountable into the war on drugs worsen. The police chiefs were certainly rightwing, drudges works it you name it right and Larry cries nearer. The Philadelphia dossier is real

one of the leaders in a new wave of progressive prosecutors. Basically saying the drug war is both filling our jails in prison with tons of low level people engage low level crimes of you, no drugs, so it doesn't make any sense. We need to treat the drug issue primarily as a health issue. Law enforcement is not a key part of the solution and salary. Craster is very brief, I ve been doing this in Philadelphia and I was delighted to the Ladys progressive, progressive prosecutors and least are moving forward. You know, if there's Olson a spike in crime. You know they can get elected out of office, but Krasner. You know easily won re election in Philadelphia. You know fairly recently, so you know he's a good guy. I mean some of the other guests like sinners humour, he was one of the real drug warriors, but now we see him kind of coal. Sponsoring a marijuana legalization bill or the head of the national pseudo drug abuse has been. Therefore like eighteen years, nor of all cow. I really saw her is kind of a kind of kinder gentler face of the drug war

doubtless man, you know who had run away from me. I mean it in all our previous encounters, but now she was willing to be on the shell because things are changing right. So there is this evolution with good guys like cries near and other prosecutors like him and police stepping up and saying we need a different way and then something bad guys, beginning to change there too, and because the public is changing, we're going to pause for word from our sponsors and will return with more. For me, the NATO meant here's to the great american settlers, the millions of years super unsatisfying jobs because they pay the bills, and I you just kind of fell into it, and you know it's like totally fine, just another few decades or so, and then you can enjoy yourself. Of course, there is something else you could do. If you got something to say you could I don't know

starter podcast, which require from Iheart in unleash your creative freedom and spend all day research, and in talking about stuff, you love and maybe even earned. Enough money to one day tell your irritating boss. If you quit and walk off into the sunset, I'm no settlor, I'm an explorer spreaker dot com, let s be, are a key, are hustler over today, hello parents is Mr Jim, and did you know it's time first story time, my podcast kids short story was created for our own kids. You see my wife loved the stories I was selling to them at bedtime and she wanted me

word cord them so that they could listen to them in the car or maybe during quiet time. It's now been downloaded millions of times by kids, all around the world, We turned their ideas into amazing adventures. You see kid sending their story ideas and then I create an awesome adventure about them, maybe they're stopping the bad guy, binding lost treasure or writing in her unicorn through the clouds with the new adventure every single day. We have a lot of fun together and it also decrease the screen time, which we all know that battle. Well, my friend search for me, Mister, Jim Orchid, short stories. So listen kid short stories in the Iheart Radio, app apple podcast or wherever you get. Your podcast are guys ready for today's adventure media. Let's go when violent trumps Warner stormed me was capital in January twenty twenty one. They were part of a coordinated effort to overthrow democracy. They didn't care who got it.

away and the guy and he leaned over and he takes look at the device and he recoils immediately and says wholly it's I'm Robert Evans, the host behind the bastards in an investigative journalist specializing in the far right working with the teams. Radio, coups media and novel, I presented the assault on America and explosive documentary podcast digging into the siege of the? U S: capital, almost a year after the violence, right are still being rounded up by law enforcement. But those are just the foot soldiers, the ringleaders there still at large and they are still at work. I see an angle here. I can play there's a bit of a Griffin, that's going on, and eventually you are basically advocating for violent insurrection in the United States to overthrow democracy

will you make money so why would just listen to the assault on America on the Iheartradio, app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast? and we're back. You have been working tirelessly for for decades, Change these prohibitive draconian policies and we do know that the conversation has shifted overall right, at least at least for some time and in some parts of the. U S and one thing that we alluded to the very beginning of our conversation today is the ideal that this, ultimately, this war on drugs is a war that has serious consequences outside of the EU.

even psychoactive. You spoke with. One men while Santos former President of Colombia, and that conversation, I think, is astonishingly eye opening for a lot of people who only think of this domestic terms, what do you see other people residents of other countries, wouldn't woody, see as their perception of the? U S is war on drugs, while today, of all the over time. Dan, I mean if you look at the United States. You know we have been the global champion of the war on drugs from early in the twentieth century, until more or less second term, President Obama, you know it was as if we felt that having a bribery the war on drugs in our own country, we needed to proselytize it to everybody else, and we justify it by saying that most of these drugs are being exported from abroad.

When cocaine and much of the moral wanna, even which then, if instead of me, so we got a crackdown, protect our borders, blame foreign countries, you know, use carrots and sticks to get him to change their ways in terms of drug production and drug exports to the United States. But there is another element, some element of almost kind of like like it almost, but by forcing others to embrace are, way of dealing with drugs are highly punitive accidents, only prohibitionist war on drugs approach. It was almost like helping to legitimize our own approach and our own eyes. If we get her or else to do it through persistent pressure, it was somehow make it morally jet, and so we play a pivotal role in really you no ill making this a global drug prohibition regime were all sorts of the which a new review heard of marijuana or never seen, cocaine, lived in a prohibiting. The mink realising them not even really knowing that they were and twenty three

later also there have to deal with black markets for their own people using these things through a criminal lands rather than a regulatory health. Let's right, I'm are back I gotta go and lady, usually nineties. I gonna Mexico Color be a Peru. You know you name it, and these countries they just fell stuck between a rock and a hard based? On the one hand, it was clear that the illicit drug markets were essentially global commodities markets like coffee, like sugar law. t like precious metals. Let you name it and it's a long is is it demand, there's gonna, be a supply and that there is no way to stop that the notion of pudding law enforcement officials in charge of trying to stop a dynamic global commodities market just made no sense and was around Snoopy for creating huge criminal organizations and vast black markets in corruption and violence and all of that right. On the other hand, they had the. U S: government see

you better, do it our way or where there are penalised. You were gonna cut off your exports, we're gonna, send you know police and maybe even soldiers, we're gonna, hurt you and all sorts of ways, so they were really stuck. They were stock and I think there was a pivotal moment that happened. Really I think after we won the ballad initiatives to legalise marijuana in Colorado in Washington in twenty twelve annual Obama had previously promised it. He wanted a really start to roll back the war on drugs and he was willing to do it in the first term because they saw it is too politically risk, but once we won Cholera Washington, it put the federal government a tough spot at a dead point. This you know they said do here, it's illegal under federal law, but cholera wash it legalise. So they said we're gonna, let those states implemented illegal,

nation and if they can make it work, who are we the feds to inject a dead point that led to a series of events where the United States stopped being the global champion of the war on drugs? We essentially handed off the baton to the Russians, who love being the global champion of the war on drugs and now Biden, who is probably the least good on the drugs issue, among all the Democrats in the primaries back in twenty twenty. Ah, you know no great friend of drug policy reform, but even underhand. We see, you know at least some progress with the. U S is no longer a robust global champion of the war on drugs. Other countries can breathe a bit the european model, with all of its harm reduction approach, is treating drugs. Is a health issue, has more chance to flex its muscles and be embraced another country, so we are fortunately sing it evolution in recent years, but I gotta tell you I'm ashamed. I would

the travel around the world. I start off my speeches by saying I want to apologize to you as an american citizen for the harm that our countries war on drugs has done in this country, all the things for doing that is our representative. a kind of you I won't sorry about where the war on terror meets the war on drugs. In my mind, I first encounter this with Ben GOSH, maybe ten years ago, when we made a video on this ban on Afghanistan, and the opium trade and stories coming out about soldiers protecting opium fields, and we just learned you know we had been. In quite a bit at that time, just about them Whatever is involvement. You know with both of them on drugs, fighting we're on drugs and perhaps a few key, a few small groups of people doing some other things with drugs when their funding you know other

groups with the sale of drugs and things like that, but when I think back to that time, I have this very clear picture of soldiers: protecting poppy fields in opium trade, because it was very valuable both to the people of Afghanistan and, for you know, potentially, for the for the guy and the purposes of the military being active in Afghanistan. When you spoke with David Mansfield may my view that changed quite a bit because experiences. I just wonder: but you're take away from that conversation was here. Let me give me his heels Europa, the world's leading experts on drugs in Afghanistan, but I'll tell you man, it's a complicated story, because, essentially you don't for the United States, fighting drugs has, who else been a huge thing, rhetorically in reality, it's always been a secondary concern compared to first of all fighting communism from the fifties until you know the late

usually to thousands and then fighting the war on terror after two thousand and one right. And so what would happen is that if will amend, there's a wonderful book about this by a boat universe? Was consular affairs or Alfred Mccoy called the politics of Heroin in South EAST Asia, which sets the context for your question about Afghanistan, which is that would happen is go back to South EAST Asia. You know their dna. States was fighting in the sixties. Early seventies were fighting against communist guerrillas in Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia. What have you and many of our allies there are these other you know indigenous, you know tribes and other organizations that were anti communist and sometimes the best anti communist fighters right where the people are also involved in the illicit drug activity. And so what happened south

data is said. You know the CIA oftentimes amazed, the notary military more from the CIA. You know they would be shipping weapons up to our anti communist allies in parts of as you, Vietnam, what have you and then, when those planes came back, filled with Opium or Heroin to Saigon to be exported to the U S departure the world! Well, U S! Intelligence! Just turn up and that right, because a greater objective was fighting communism, Saint had in Central America the Contras back in the Eighty nine once again find the communist. So when our contra allies again get involved in drugs to help fund their activities, you know data the CIA, sometimes it it would be going after those guys in the sea. I would intervene as they wait: a second those drug traffickers. There, the best allies we haven't by the communists, and this would render the dismal lay exactly even happened in smaller ways going on in Europe. Are the parts

Latin America, Elsa, South America and Afghanistan, of course, was the great example of that, because you know it when the Taliban were first in power in the late nineteenth early, two thousand our greatest ally and find the communist was deeply implicit. You know implicated in the inner opium trade and heroin tray, the guy who was assassinated by the Taliban right before nine eleven, and so it was once again kind of saying- hey, we got priorities here now. Part of the one consequence of this is that you would have some people in ice stay to spare Lee Black politicians, Maxine Waters from California and others who would say the reason we have drug in Amerika is because it a CIA they're, sending crack cocaine into our ghettos or decades ago, they're sending heroin, ensure ghettos, and when I would put how to them is. Yes, the CIA is complicit, it is true, but even if the CIA had been squeaky, clean cry,

cocaine with a showing of just a few months later, in LOS Angeles and New York, would have your Harold would have shown up just wait cuz. Ultimately, these are global commodities market any role the CIA is playing with our euro anti communist or anti terrorist allies in on it, Afghanistan or or Vietnam or Mexico through the years. It's it's a tiny. It's a drop in the ocean compared to the bigger dynamics at play here so is always been a complicated story. Doesn't justify the? U S being involved being complicit in drug trafficking, but I think it's important to put it into that context there. Yet I think that's it. I think that an important point and one that needs to be brought up more often. The sad reality often seems to be that people the hearing, a narrative. What's want an easy cut, dried story of villains and heroes,

then, you know much more realistic story of competing. And sometimes complimentary interest rate the old strange bedfellows situations that occur so often in the world of geopolitics. This week, says to one of the questions and very excited to ask you, as as the world's foremost expert on drawing power see we ve injured the realm of a little bit of myth, busting, because we know that the story of drugs in the? U S is often riddled with, alarming accusations right with conspiracy theories, we ve already mentioned two of the most popular the idea. the CIA purposely flooded disadvantaged neighbourhoods with cocaine.

Sort of steepling their fingers Monti burn style. The whole time, as with with this in mind, we have to ask, are any of the conspiratorial things. People here about drugs, prohibition do any of them? In your opinion, halves sand, I'm thinking particularly about accusations of for profit motivations, which mentioned, I think also one of the big ones that we ve yet to address is the possible role of legal drug manufacturers. Pharmaceutical companies. You know the the produce of the secular. My kind of operations- I guess what I am asking is either is- is any of that real, like the accusations that big farmers bottom quote doing this I mean they say it's complicated right, so so

just take. Big farmer is one example. Then I'll turn to another. On it'll back in the late eighties, an organization emerge called the partnership for a drug free America. They were obsessed about marijuana use among young people now interesting in the early years they were funded by big alcohol, big tobacco and big pharma right now. Alternately, or in barest, into stopped, taking money from big alkaline big tobacco, but the guy who is ahead of that organization was a felony Jim Burke who had been ahead of was ahead of Johnson Johnson, the famous pharmaceutical company, who is a hero he was when, when they withdraw scandal with his tainted tylenol caught killing people the way

he handle that his crisis management. That became a Roma, they teach and Harvard Business School for how to deal with crisis management. So he was one of the most powerful people in America in the corporate world in a kind of model in a wasp establishment in America, and but he be a, but he was you know: airtight, head of the partial drug Free America air of it, and it seemed to be all about demonizing marijuana because you, if you, Google or Yahoo, Google back and lady is really nineties good. If you looked around, I drugs would poet pop up. Is drugs made her uncle came Rwanda, methamphetamine, LSD, but drugs also meant everything big farmers producing, and so they had a kind of marketing issue which how do we distinguish? Our good drugs are okay, drugs from those bad drugs, so the partnership for Drug Free America, came entirely focused. I marijuana. They tie entirely ignored the issues with pharmaceutical problems, a downplay the issues with alcohol, at least in earlier years. Right. So you had that part, you don't need it

opening big money or they never actually put big money into opposing our marijuana legalization initiative is, but they would get involved in trying to figure out you don't like Haddaway, slow, the pace of this reform here now you move forward to the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma, which became the Toria's for its. You know grossly inappropriate. Jane of oxy content. Oxy Kennedy was a new formulation of an opium oil that was a miracle drug for people struggling with pain, but when its marketed to people with chronic pain, created a big problem- and I interviewed both the author, the book Empire Pain, Petrograd and Keith about his book about the Sattler family,

but also Kate Nicholson, who started an organization, you know to represent the interests of people who are using pain, medications, pharmaceutical bureaus responsibly, but now can't get him any more because doctors are afraid to prescribe because there's the pendulum swung so far the direction, and so there what I say, as you know, the Sattler family, and especially you know, the key people involved with produce far and that organisation they deserve. The blame. They're getting may deserve to be punished. Put out of business penalize, you know maybe even go to jail. They deserve that because of their gross over promotion of this stuff. But as you said that but want to have the easy enemy. So all of a sudden, the sack, there's Purdue Pharma represents the entire face of the opium up again it. But in point of fact, they have not been a major part of the problem for the less

There are fifteen years. You know the problem bed became heroin and now about sentinel being imported illegally from China and Mexico. You know at nl I mean so there is a kind of gross distortion, so the settlers who deserve Twenty percent of the blame or Purdue pharma are being given. Ninety four the blame and that distract us from which We going on and then I'll just point out, Another example I mean there is probably no more demonized and appropriately demonized force out. There is a kind of global capitalist world in big tobacco right. I mean those words lie: cheated sold their cancer stakes, addicted teenagers came up with more it is cigarettes mean you name it right, Sammy, actually, a despicable business that you know basically ends up killing their most loyal consumers right after me, a huge amount of money from man, but now or this

Trusting Mohammed were some of the big tobacco companies are getting deeply involved in developing e cigarettes, and these were a call. These heat not burn devices. Will it turns out? These are ways of consuming nicotine represent a tiny fraction of the risk of cigarettes. In fact, if you- snap, your fingers and tomorrow the that the forty million Americans who smoke cigarettes or the billion plus people Around the world who smoke cigarettes were too suddenly stopped smoking cigarettes in every single one of them were to start raping and using EAST Richard Answer- Julia whatever it would be one of the greatest advances in public health history in public health in the history of the world, and I would even be true if far more young people were raping. You know that their then had had been smoking, but most Americans don't know that so big tobaccos become a very complicated figure where they're still selling their cancer sticks are stolen.

can money there, but some of them are trying to make a real transition to selling nicotine in full are far dramatically less dangerous forms, but once again our need for simple answers and simple enemy he's, is standing in the way of an effective public health approach boy answers simple. Yes, it is So much of what we cover on their show, I figure make me about propaganda. I just I crafted this question. I would ask the way ahead. I wrote it out just as our kind of proud of it. Even It's basically what you already said. I just I want to see you a different answer when it comes out this way while there, several ways to affect the laws governing this Democratic republic, in my opinion, the second most effective manner, Where is to change the way? A majority of the voting populous thinks so for better or for worse. That means deploying some form of propaganda, at least to my mind over the where's your career. How have you seen

again. The most effectively deployed from both sides of the war on drugs- that's a great question. Matt I mean when I look the propaganda on the drug war side, they were just extraordinarily successful in the Eightys and Ninetys I mean they managed to take in innocuous. Substance like Marijuana toy, not any real people get addicted to a people can apply with it so you I know people had serious marijuana problems, but the vast majority vote- and for the vast majority is probably in that positive in their lives right, but somehow Nancy Reagan gets up there with her just say no and say them dangerous drug user. America is a teenage marijuana smoker, whose doing well in school, basically because they set send the wrong message everybody else, so they really their propaganda. The who believed in you know instituting a system of mass incarceration and blaming everything on drugs. You don't mean that there are six,

as in the and Ninetys early, two thousands I mean. I think a lot of people are now in their teens and twentys, don't even appreciate how venal and effective that camp. was, I mean a would literally be if you took ten scientific questions about drugs, about threats to rest or about what happened or this, and that and you ask ordinary Americans. You know they would get a majority of the answers wrong, simply because the media was so so in the media. Everybody else is just everything they believed was basically false right. I mean you know that that use a drug once you become ITALY addicted falls for that. Ninety nine point: nine percent of all people. You know you'll opiates. The fact that if you have a legal, secure supply of heroin, you can

whom there lived to be ninety years old and hold a job right. It's more about black market heroin and adulterated harrow enemy people didn't know that marijuana disease, since your body lsd, harms chromosomes in DNA, Ranger spinal fluid. I mean these were front page news stories. Were people get freaked out about this stuff and it was all or ninety nine per ninety percent. Both you know the marijuana as a stepping stone. You know too to you other getting in trouble. Other drugs. Well, I described as an ounce of truth, embedded in a pound of both and now we're seeing the same misinformation around the issues of bathing nicotine as opposed to cigarettes, were A majority of Americans believe that e cigarettes invading is, as are more dangerous than smoking cigarettes with his diametrically opposite, in which a majority of doctors believe that nicotine is what causes cancer. When nicotine doesn't cause cancer, it's the combustible elements of the cigarette. They call it could cause cancer right, so their problem

and about then, and now, the modern day stuff that were seeing around bathing and even somewhat around the role of opiates and pain management. You know it is just a rift propaganda that helps explain. A big part american war on drugs and why we ve had such a problem, not just a mass incarceration. but while we have a hundred thousand people dying of overdoses. Today, now ask on our side where we been most successful, amiably do propaganda, we're just all about the ever? It is about the science, but I'll tell you this. I think you know there was not one of the things we did on there I think was very effective. Was that we were. We were smart about our messaging, Oh I'd, already, almost twenty five years ago, we did some. I focus groups and public opinion testing and we realise that most emerge. The word legalise too, then men something being out of control, whereas what, when women the USA. We meant regulation and we realized

using the phrase of tax control, regulate and educate. Was the waiter sure people in the middle that Legalization was was irresponsible regulatory approach, and then you know, member back in is about ten years ago differ groups, my organization, other organizations which has sometimes different views. What would be the most powerful message. You know some people say that it's about personal freedom, some people said it's about marijuana being safer than alcoholism. People said it's about the medical value right, but will we agreed. I was eight whenever you want to say but come labour day, two months for election day, where we were going to have an initiative on the ballot, we would all stop our own favoured messaging and we would rely on the messaging that appalling told us is gonna work best to persuade the fearful soccer the person in the Middle rights, the american parents who

maybe use marijuana their younger, who is kind of scare, but new, marijuana, prohibition and worth and those two messages were hate. We'd rather have the cops focusing on real crime. It is going after young people from Rwanda and would rather have the guard. taxing railway. They start history, giving all the money to the gangsters and that message, discipline, which was you know, actual in most states, really helped us move forward. Now, in a word of this little kind of sweet spot right now, we're there's almost remarkably little negative stuff coming out about marijuana. I mean it's almost as if it's you know with it with me, commercialization with marijuana merging emerging in liquid forms in chocolate forms in this, and that and the medical vat you being more more appreciated, but when this period where I see it begins to swell up now, we're we're gonna see the pendulum begin to swing and people in it

talking about the harms, marijuana again and the dangers America wine, bringing back both some of the science which is true about some recent airliner, but also some of the propaganda. It was very reassure and just recently the annual survey of of drug use came out and it Showed- marijuana use among adolescents drop moralized year, then any year in decades. So notwithstanding the brain, legalization and commercialization. You know, and active marijuana use among people. My age is increasing dramatically marijuana. among adolescents keeps dropping. So as long as that stays the case, I think we're too sweet spot, but at some point consists goes up and down, irrespective of public. I want to see you know how to listen to going to get into weed again and we're going to see an increase and then we'll see the anti drug propaganda re emerging. Yes, save the save the

It has a that's a heck of an effective message right. Well, you know right. Every so often the entire war on drugs has been justified. Is one great big Child protection ACT and now We look at the opposition to ease cigarettes right where we know that you old smokers in their thirty forty, fifty and sixty switching to e cigarettes could dramatically you don't cut. You know tobacco related deaths, but hey about the kids they been Julie may be doing this stuff and even though the wrist to them are dramatically dramatically less than the harms to addled smokers aim it it's all about the kids, if a million adults got to die prematurely so that we can keep a bunch of kids from vaping, hey, that's a price worth paying so works. We're seeing the old drug war rhetoric. Now, a connecting to this issues around tobacco vapours cigarettes and with that we're gonna, take a quick mom to your word from our sponsor, but will be right back with Ethan NATO

call the Union Hall. I said it's a matter of life and death. I think these people are planning to kill doctor king on April. Fourth, one thousand nine hundred and sixty eight doctor Martin Luther king was shot and killed in Memphis for petty criminal named James Earl Ray was arrested. He pled guilty to the crime and spent the rest of his life in prison case closed right, James Earl Ray corn or the official story. The authorities would parade all we found gone. The James

re born in Birmingham the guilder key, except it wasn't gonna kill lucky one of the problems that came out when I got the re case was that some of the evidence, as far as I was concerned, did not match the circumstances. This is the m: ok, tapes, the first two episodes or available on January tenth, listen on the Iheart Radioactive Apple podcast or wherever you get your Butkus. Looked the? U children's eyes to see the two matters of a forest, its storybook world. For then you look and see a tree. They see their wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to this guy. Faced each measuring pebbles. They feel windy path that could lead to adventure and they feel their fearless guide is fascinating or find a forest near you and start exploring discover the forest dot. Org rights, you by the United States,

was service and the council- and we return I'd like to talk briefly briefly about something that that I personally take as good news. or tyrant of olive in policy, one of the things we ve mentioned in the past cast on the show. Is that a clear, a clear and deleterious effect of prohibitive drug policy? is that they can stymie research into possible benefits of substance, or even just learning more about something and that that applies to marijuana for a long time, but it also wise to suicide. To see of these the site I could release hallucinogenic rather substances and in the past weeks, your own past four years, but

I was just ring the news a few weeks ago, up to a few days ago, it's you is that there has and a lot of progress in the research front on the possible benefits, the possible benefits of Sir go active substances in this. Is this pretty solid methodology. It appears to me I'm not the expert. I was involved in the studies that you know I have an I understand what they're talking about you guys have another way. Shall we say? Yes, perhaps? Yes, that's that's those diplomatic way. Thank you I wanted to. I wanted to ask you specifically about this, because no there's a lot of a lot of people struggle to find optimism in in like this.

Situation that we have been in as a nation for so long as there are a lot of their there. A lot of dangerous and and terrible things that have happened as a result of prohibitive policies, so What do we see is the future of psychedelic, I'm asking specifically, because I just read that some one in New York has filed a bill to legalise medical suicide, and do you think these kinds of things will pass Well, Sir Simon become kind of lake, it will. Assume the role that marijuana currently has in the future? Will now quite marijuana, damn it's a great question. I mean there is truly a psychedelic renaissance going on right now and most of these substances source I been also mescal. Mme suicide is a king, rience, mushrooms, mescal is the key ingredient, in priority and this on petrol planned. Then there's lsd,

then there's India May ecstasy, which is not really a psychedelic but ill. Sometimes people group in that category and then there's five it oh Don T, which it was called a toad medicine it's another powerful thing. So those are just some of the examples on so there's an incredible, really a cyclist renaissance We are right now in our unjust blown away by it. I was just a couple of conferences on psyche Alex in business and inciting Alexander movements. Both in Miami in New York in recent months, and even though these drugs are was called schedule, one in most cases, not Ketamine Quetta means the one legal sort of psychedelic that we have kept clinics popping up it is legally regulated. So that's the one short acting class. I psychedelic that's out there, but you know schedule what what that means is that the government said there is no legitimate medical uses in great harm associated with a strong and redeem.

closely marijuana remains and schedule what so it points out what a farce the entire scheduling system is, how highly politicize it is. I mean that you know, and I think it away that far's helped us in our marijuana legalization efforts, because you know what What are these Balin issues? I medical marijuana back in the nineties in two thousand and the garments and there's no such thing. Medical marijuana and be ill over third of Americans no people per so you're using marijuana medically. So the fact of the garden was lying, help to deal agenda mise their case and helped us. I think, ultimately move Ford? Would legalizing marijuana winning support now with a psychic Alex? It is technically possible to do research on schedule. One drugs I mean there's even been research, giving five Harold,

Do human subjects going on in the past at Columbia, Johns Hopkins Wayne stayed in Michigan, so it's possible and which have now seen happening, is more more private companies or, in a key case, an organization called maps. Multi dispersed socio economic studies that have been moving forward with the FDA, getting permission to do these research studies right, and so we are now seeing that India may is probably going to be approved by the FDA for treatment of PTSD it roughly two years from now and were also seeing that suicide and the ingredient mushrooms is probably going to be approved by the FDA to empty aid for treatment of intractable depression, maybe a year or two after that right, so that's gonna caused them.

rescheduled, so we are seeing some evolution and meanwhile there are dozens of studies, mostly funded, no more with private investment capital than with foundation supports. You know that I'm moving forward, especially in the U Dot S and Canada, a few in Europe. Right and finally, just a few months ago, the National Institute on drug abuse, for the first time in like forty or fifty years, just approved a grant to Johns Hopkins for a study giving. So Simon and seeing if it helps people stop smoking, so I think we're going to see more federal funding in this area as well so one hand, there is this kind of medical association approach that going through the FDA or its european equivalence. That is really showing this incredible promise and there you know you look at that. So many companies out the company doing the suicide and research companies has a stock market valuation of like a billion and after all,

and what are the major investment funds and also been half dollars in another company? That's doing sitting up retreats in clinics. You know its value half a billion dollars. So this is a rat the growing area, both of small start up firms and of companies going public, and I think this is going continue. Let me know mistakes made and will be some push back, but the media coverage is fantastic. Then there's that second track that you mention the decriminalization track right that's what was started when Denver decriminalize. Yes, I saw Simon possession, I think it was a few years ago and then in the city of open to the same thing and more recently, Detroit did it in the most recent election and in Oregon remarkably last year, passed two

your ballot initiatives. One was one that my organization, drug policy alliance, a deletion from my successors, you know had were introduced and now is to decriminalize possession of all drugs, including heron, cocaine. Emphatically, where people said she would not go to jail for possession small amounts, but the other one was a psychedelic initiative. That basically said possession is criminalized and at the state of origin, should move forward with allowing people to be prescribed suicide in there or a suicide, been not just for serious illness, but even for general mental Health and well being, and so what we're gonna see now is more of that psychedelic reform. Moving for through ballad initiatives. In other states who might be Washington Caliph, when you Colorado, you name it YO to believe the western states go first or it might be. Legislation like this in a Europe that you mention, you know where it's beginning to move forward. So these two tracks, the deed,

criminalization and the legitimate zation of regulated you no access to these drugs in a closet, medical environment and clinics, other hands of medical, very medical environment- I mean there's, raising momentum behind these things. I cannot claim much credit because you know I've, although personally Cyclops have very important role in my own life in my organism, should we were only involved? The edges of this, in far more credit, goes to you know: Rick Dublin, who founded the multi disarray Sosius. I hope studies man back in the eighties and has led this effort into other researchers major universities and now to some of the investors, who are obviously trying to make money but taken some real risk to get the stuff moving forward. And, of course, if we are through piss like Soros, now. You know it's funny when I talk to Georgia, the psycho stuff a long time ago, a vague, just, a funny story here, so back on

must have been twenty fifteen. I think it was, and I organised a fund raising dinner at Soros. His apartment and I had- there are some of our biggest donors. One of them was showing Parker, you know from Facebook, Favyn all and another one was going. John Morgan, a very controversial guy in Florida, who's, gonna, dig democratic party contributor and in winter Soros. His sons was there in some other major of people from investment banks, and things like that, and- and there was this low in the conversation- an end, so just a hell of a noble, guided to me. I said to them: you'll, never guess where I was last week. It is aware. I said the World Iowa Congress any visa and they said the world one Congress, the idea, the IRA. What were hate They had no idea what I was talking about an unemployed, Georgia, Son John Junk certainly goes. You know dad ratios George, you don't you have. No, I yeah. How many Iowa concessions are happening in Brooklyn

had at every weekend, right so George, he and the key staff whenever much into this, but fortunately one of the key people working within the foundation. A good friend of my kasza, Mono Scott she's, been sympathetic to this, so we ve begun to see a limited amount of funding coming out of sorrows foundation, very very small, of recycles reform uneven shirt. He knows about it, but it hoping you die. and from their angle, is putting the money and on the social justice side right so about the role of indigenous people and making sure there are protected. It's about trying to introduce some racial justice elements in the cycles world. So that's really that the focus of his foundation on this stuff. But it its tiny here everything else. I those stories you have to have connections and then drugs, John somewhere man, I'd say it's true, I mean also, you know from from the left.

To the right wing in foreign presidency dignitaries and media is funny is surely stories key pouring out in the when they ll write a book about. I guess his is the common expression that, when gives us this I'll, tell ya wanna joys. By doing this pie cast psychoactive is indeed to the episodes I get to tell so many stories, you know cause I'm having guess on, and yet all Have somebody wrote a Pulitzer Prize winning book about the drug war within the black community and I can share my experiences with Jesse Jackson, trolley wrangling, others or or even been mention having the former. Being president who won the Nobel Peace Prize, one oil Santos, but I've known him for a decade and can tell some of those stories and so that that's that's one of the joys for me of doing the pie guest and this is one of the reasons that it was so important for us to do. Have you on the show today and in first, as you said, the very beginning, thank you so much for joining us, because we want

our our fellow listeners, learn more about these incredibly important issues, to learn the context, to learn the present and to learn the future and to hope Finally, and I will make this a call to action, hopefully to joy, in creating that future because, as you point out it does its. This is this. Is such a complex situation. There are alot of factors involved, and I think everybody can agree. That as a society, the? U S could do a lot better, it's the way a corporate Amerika. Would you would probably phrase it? Is there are areas of opportunity or better Tell you something. Let me give it a special the name of your podcast hear stuff. They don't want you to know you do my one should have party piece of advice for your lister's is whenever you see a new drug scare, look again

cause the eyes, are it's wrong. Now, in the case of functional and the overdoses, it's right, sentinel is deadly and you gotta be careful. Not be mocking around which even showing up in cocaine and other drugs like that, so there is some truth to it. There right is so you do need to be aware shame the government's been lying and deceiving so much that people that sometimes fail to appreciate that? On the other hand, when you see the stuff now being said about opioids- and you see the stuff being said about vaping of nicotine, you know that stuff often times is grossly exaggerated and oftentimes factually inaccurate. The fact that the mainstream media, including the New York Times and others, are buying into this stuff. The fact that some of the worst offenders sometimes are not right wing that heads, but by left wing progressive politician, who have generally been good about ending the war on drugs, but they jump on the bandwagon when it comes to new things

an old boys are raping. So I would just Yale Parting words was you know, look carefully if your curious look at the evidence and don't buy the initial both because the willingness of even smart people or people with think they're, smart and educated wisdom and our progressive to buy into mainstream book is unlimited, but because we see ourselves as enlightened and progressive oftentimes. We think we're immune to that. But often We're not very well said yeah and the way we do after we do have to a little bit of disclosure. I think that we are both big big fans of Cycle ACT if I hadn't tremendously impress oh, I have learned so much just from tuning in a man You are also instrumental in the show this is it. This is a mat, Frederick production. What I never heard of before I just today.

man. I was so site when you came to the launch party, recycle active in New York in the summer egg, though the look in your eyes at your enthusiasm. Will your meetings over these characters? I would I loved it. I loved it know it's true yeah we're on a rooftop in New York City and of the it is. They were characters in your life, but there so highly influential people most in the field of education, the people that I was speaking with their alike professors who bid king for ages, just studying some of these topics and people have been working their entire lives. You know to advocate for the the same things you are advocating for even it was very moving to be there. And yes, I am an executive officer on the show, but I would just say everybody. If you get a chance, please listen in some of the sum of the most

trusting in form of conversations around the topic of drug drugs exist in that show enough you uncomfortable with drugs personally and I dont use many. If at all, I have a vague and I drink smoke Oliver once well, but it's it's really changed the I view the topic entirely so you may Michaud Ethan and police check it out everybody. I should just call you. May people ask me: do I get high when I record the shell and the truth? Is I don't smoke marijuana because I find it if I use marijuana it's hard. They stay focused and remember what the previous question ass. Well, so I never get high before, but I just recorded episode about this drug credo, which is, legally and most data, and it is, ass. I went out a yesterday. I bought some creative and I drank classic club trade, and while I was interviewing my guest about this subject, so that was a bit of a new experience. So ass, a new thing

You just do whatever drug you, it's gotta be a mild one. Gonna knock it. You know I was thinking I should buy. Probably should start micro dosing before I do in this order migratory saying, but I keep forgetting to micro, no self. So another thing I joy. I fully agree with that point about the tremendously important educational nature, but I also I have to do a hundred percent confirm what you said earlier about these stories. Just come out of the that's they are really enjoy in psychoactive and there was a rolling stone interview. I figures stone that you did where waste. said when the laws it changed in New York, you friend like decided, we're going to smoke a joint on the street and theirs they there's a cop. A cry

I bear exactly on worker with afraid, if, like the day or two after New York, law had passed the first law in the country which allows people to smoke adjoining public sore in central park, and we can't smoke a central part because you know how to smoke tobacco central park. So I said less Gaza we walk outside on Fifth avenue around a hundred street right at Ed end, so there were on the sidewalk, its legal and I'm across the street from outside I spoke to actually where I was born and there's a police car across the street, and I started my friendless Ethan what're. You doing. I say it is a cop car. I sit power. This is the meaning of freedom and, in fact, even if we were now to old white guys, but two young black men, we could still do it. So I feel very proud. That moment it really brought home to me the kind of personal element of the freedom that were fighting for in China in the war on drugs. There everyone check out I go active. This is Ethan NATO meant

so yeah, I'm, I feel you're. My only regret is that we do eventually have to but that's not the end of the story. This story does continue in psychoactive. I would also like to highlight four anybody interested in how, phrase the internationalization of criminal law enforcement. I do check out the books that you have you You ve created a cops across borders, policing the globe, the information that will empower people in this. In this ongoing conversation, it's out there it's available and to your point. Yes, there there are entities that consider that information, the stuff they don't want, you to know which mean that, wherever, wherever you fall personally, you should know it. So exactly we'll guy thanks so much for the

generally to be honest with you, I love doing now. I appreciate your work on cycle active and I appreciate this by gas obeying great to meet you as well. We cannot where we cannot wait for it, next episodes. Wanna. Thank you for your time and at this point folks, we I also want to pass the night to you. What do you think is the future of policy, not just in the U S but in the world, what do you think of the way where we called the long tail consequences of some of these prohibitive policies? Let us know We try to be easily find online. If you don't ship the social needs, you can give us a call at our phone number, one in three three std to be Whitey K, and want to send us an email. We read every single one we get. We can't wait to hear from you. All you have to do is drop us alive. We are piracy at Iheart radio dot com,

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