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grab now listen to the movie sticks podcast on the Iheart Radio, app on Apple podcast or wherever you get your pot gas from you. A boost, psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn Stop they don't want you to know a production of. I hope we, hello. Welcome back to the show my name is met, My name is no, they call me Ben. We are joined, as always with our super producer, Paul mission, control of deck and, most importantly, you are you, you are here, and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know, earth fire, wind, water, Google planet. I know you're going to make an earth wind fire reference, but then you changed course midway, and I was onboard again

not on with earth when that lobbyists on Captain Planet right right. This will be here too many many our fellow nurse who are based in the? U S! Captain planet was an animated series about these kids, these plucky young starts who wanted to save the world with the help of their superpower. Friend, captain plan the Ep Anonymous STAR of the show I even cabinet plants gonna come up a couple times in today's episode the topic of our show. Today's been on our minds for awhile, because the facts, written rigour, listen where you live. Your country has probably at some point, been ground zero for a serious environmental disaster, oil spills, hurricanes, mass extinctions, forest fires, floods and droughts. You name it. Something has happened and right now, at the time in this recording p

across the planet, have tried to propose any number of solutions to these problems, and, unfortunately, very few of these initiatives have met with great success in the world continues to degrade at an unprecedented pace: bomber air bummer. Indeed I mean you for some people. Maybe in the crowd today. This means that drastic new tactics are needed. If you can't change this, is from within this system than the sis Self Comes your enemy, so certain group have decided to conspire to act outside of the law in service of what they see as a greater environmental good, and some folks will call these people he rose other folks, as will find we'll call them terrorist. Here are the facts when, before we talk about the concept of so called eco terrorism, we have two way out: some

So depressing information, the kind of thing that has made me actively subscribe to the philosophy of optimistic nihilism. Does we vote for this. What kind of music you like? What kind of food you either? What kind of lose you where the environment is screwed, I mean from her home dense and purposes, and you don't have to be like super activists in this respect. she knows I'm gonna happy living in a tree. I do agree with that point. I mean it's pretty clear that their some very, very, very serious and in many cases, irreversible problems with the environment. Where are we we learned with not long ago, maybe actually was years ago now, but he was about to specifically that what the all companies a new when it came to climate change and the effects that

their companies were having on that whole process. I mean it's, it's pretty much of an accepted fact that humans have at least pushed forward the chain, climate on earth yet absolutely and a lot of the arguments attempting to debunk studies about that were paid by the Preparations were at least partially research. Will they knew they very much new they just decided there too, for profits were more important than their grand children are the people who come after the current generation. Mammy climate just accept it as a fact I dickens Piracy- is the people tried to cover it up so today the real debates are the real like active debate. in this sphere? Are the extent of the damage like your leading to mad like humans did something? How much did they do

and then. Secondly, what is to be done about this and when do humans need to get off their collective testers and do something I mean you have you no international agreements and climate accords? And you know it standards and things like that, but you're right, even stuff like that, is super politicized and often you know a little bit toothless in terms of like how much accountability the nations that are part of those agreements actually have ever not merely this is not necessarily a hit peace on the off of those declarations or the proponents are signatories of those agreements. Erect no for many many years the problem of environmental degradation was a political scene, is a political opportunity. It was politicized. People who were out to make money consequences be damned were quite successful, leveraging the problems

of human psychology right now. Now the idea of your opinion, environmental ism is inherently wrapped up in your concept of a tribe and your membership in a tribe, but the thing is like ok, so people fighting for conservation. At least in the, U S were often accused of being quote far left radicals or You know the accusation was they were unfairly attacking people or just trying to earn a living put food on the dinner, table, Et Cetera, Cetera, whatever kind of political rhetoric was involved, the time or dare not err, you say attacking a whole part of the country rate Merle America, you know, is under attack by far left radicals because their China, get rid of the no coal mine or you know, impose all of these draconian standards on all these other people, just wanna live Emmy and, of course, at some level there is truth to that.

in terms of people needing to earn a living by our cost right also economy is a religion cell I'm just gonna keep saying that until somebody prove me wrong, but you you guys are absolutely right this. This shift. This politicization he's very interesting. If you are a student of history, because a great many concert vision movements in the U S and abroad had fairly patrician politically conservative roots. You know, like the aristocracy, would preserve land for their own purposes. Usually or think of Teddy Roosevelt was a huge proponent of cars, nation, environmentalism, also like to murder me now things a lot trip to read it. He did. and right now a lot of large institutions are making tons of profit, because people are not aware of this. Historical

on text right. The conversation has of all things were always this way sort of similar to how the Democrats and Republicans so called of ie like eighteen hundreds were. We different. Then the people you see calling themselves that today you have to look deeper. things to understand them and regardless of where you find yourself on the political spectrum, arguments politicized climate change are usually either I'll say it- take a shot, cartoonish, ignorant or they are made in bad faith to mislead credulous people. You will you if you are sitting in your human being You need the same things as all the people that you love or hate or dont, know across the plain

you know you ve got a breathe right, that's one of the things you want to eat food which may need arable land or access to someone. Who has that you also clean water, it's cool to have shelter from the elements these like the base, this is dead one stuff as they set to work all acts, and that in the problem is just too big. For you one single institution to solve it on its own. There, too many players involved are you could come stakeholders or whatever, but we're we're not just talking about the almost eight billion People who rely on the egos them to survive, which everyone were also talking about, the institutions that these people have form throughout history or will form in the future. Like ok, I hate that we have to say this, but we have to be fair right. We talked about this new world without plastic. Their huge private in

trees that Euro move billions in trillions of dollars to ban slice it and, if you the switch- and you say you know like no more plastic, no worse to emissions or something like that they are going to tank and they DR millions of innocent people with them into the ground too much change too soon could be as dangerous as no change in the immediate future. If does that make sense absolutely, and we already we alluded to that or earlier in the absurd. Just when talking about the the whole problem in general. of making one mass change in the other thing to take into account here, is that every country that exist Has its own kind of economy, they function based on the resources and once available within the land and sea that they own right, and if you try make a sweeping change on every one of those countries in every one of those economies, on the global economy, you're gonna have

major problems. They are the same ones. You just described been where one one company goes down, or an industry goes down in a certain fishing. You know area, let's see on the North EAST coast of the United States, or you know, of North America, you can have your issues, not only in that area, but then that's gonna to the rest of the economy and the fishing economy anyway. It's a bad example by its is a major problem in that that leaves you have developing countries that maybe just now starting to become you know you can ex superpowers are working their way up to it, and then like what about that time that you spent polluting you know and getting to get up and running and now you're saying that we have to cut back because of How do you know greenhouse gases? you put out like over the years when we weren't- like that's, not fair, that's it that's the point,

I want to spend some time on in a second in every link. We are on the same each year, we might actually radicalizing each other in this episode votes, which is why so you ve got the companies the matter. If you love me, I hate him. You think they're necessary evil eye. It would be bad news if all this sudden had to flip a switch and stop the economic consequences would be unprecedented- those, almost two hundred? U unrecognised countries they reach, gather vibes, often contradictory goals there not gonna, be super greater, cooperating and then especially now to steal a line from Fox NEWS. Now more than ever, you have incredibly wealth. individuals, each of whom all has their own agenda and they are capable of affecting these conversations at every single step along the way. If you are listening to today, show odds, are you can't do a thing to stop any of those three cattle

worries of entity. You can try to make our voice heard, but the treaty no channels, it's gonna, be tough, not everybody gets to be Gretta Thunderbird, you know, the prisoners dilemma Europe, please well, no one wants to get left behind. Logically, no one wants to commit to a decision or a policy that will leave them at a disadvantage very basic. Why would you you know like I was trying to give some examples. They came up with some hypothetical once saw trying to think of like a really big corporation and just pulled you know lever. out of us gullies cranium over there and let's see you might say here, Nolan Matt- and you are the heads of Unilever and you know that a lot of what will see you make a lot of stuff that uses palm oil and so that the palm oil industry is very damaging to the EU systems in which its harvested, but you all

You know that if you decide to get some good pr and say: okay, we're cutting out all palm oil products and we're an international corporation, so we're going to make a splash with this. You know. What's going to happen, if you do that, you're going to lose billions of dollars pretty quickly and worse, you're competitors are going to move into that space. Lickety split, so the problem is going to continue, and you just walk making money off of it. That is a hundred percent. What will happen as like like Lego, for example, they're not going to stop using plastic, but they it make a gesture in saying they're going to phase out plastic bags in their packaging? So it's like that sort of the middle ground of pr opportunity there cuz your lego, its a hit. Your supply, you get. What are you gonna make it out? Unlike seashells lay you gotta figure something out. That's a much more long term problems as figure material that they can actually integrate into their Why change replaced plastics and oil based products

Debbie. I well. We know that this problem, but we're Lego, would you gotta? Have you legos? So let's just make the bags out of paper in our Mcdonald's even is like they're happy meal. Toys are not made of plastic anymore. There made of paper, but they're. Also gonna still have plastic. Straws right here, there's a aiming it's it's true! It really is a pickle, because these the voters, These decisions are trying to mitigate their. but they're, trying to mitigate it in a way that is sustainable for their enterprise, if not sustainable, for the planet and the scale of time that that is the biggest complicating factors here, let's say: ok say, you're, Paul mission, control deck and you r D ruler of let's give Paul Transylvania jacket, I also learned that he's the ruler Lula. You know with with a very tasteful iron fist, mission control. Rules too Vain and

as the leader of this country. He know that his nation depends upon certain industries that are damaging to the environment. Maybe mining. Maybe it's oil errors, minerals, whatever maybe its motto: agriculture in just exports, one thing and that's it mostly arable land is used for so many dear leader, all deck and says. Ok, I could end these industries and if I do, then Transylvania will play a role in making the world arguably a better place. Decades from now, I won't be around to see it. Instead, I will be the scapegoat. I will be public enemy number one I'll be the guy who take to the economy and put the population in the poorhouse and out of work. That also is hundred percent, the calculus that a lot of world leaders use and they're not wrong is the problem there,

Are they still mine, asbestos and parts of Russia? We is that what is an old town ass best? I believe that that is, that is that's literally there there, one industry and everyone that's their due. Imagine It's ok with doing that job at the Anarchy Britain out what else you gonna do you know that these are bride? Cannot aside from Russia, which is a real world example. These are broad hypothetical examples, but we guarantee you they are based. In fact is now the question becomes same, question everybody knows this problem, everybody knows something needs to be done. We all just get along and agree on a solution record scratch. No, actually, no, we cannot we will now. As discussed earlier many of the countries and entities that driving these conversations about environmentalism and preservation

coming from a place with immense historical privilege, like of course linked in this is not acting on our british or european friends in the audience today, but think about it of course U K of Western Europe can get kind of high and mighty about the conversation around alternative energy because there is still so in pretty of untold trillions of dollars of historical profits from the coal power, the industrial age to slavery, to colonialism all the other sins of the past me them a lot of money and gave them a lot of influence? They still have it. So, of course, if you're up and coming country, You'll sometimes hear them referred to. Is the Bric countries so a bit of it, No, but it's an acronym that stands for Brazil. Russia, India and China Countries Lake on that level, of course, you're gonna be frustrated. If some Some grand poobah from the? U N comes to you says, ok,

destroy. The planet was all fine and dandy for us by you, guys are going to need to find a different, more expensive route to our level of success. Funny voice take a drink, that of funding of what was it my real voice. So it's a it's tough it stopping in people you're a valid concerns. Big change rarely happens overnight unless you're talking about like pump hey or another natural disaster. So, like you talked much earlier, Matt things have to be. he's doing out pretty slowly. This takes a huge level of commitment across administrations across governments across continents across generations and requires even trickier thing. It requires everybody involved to emerge. Imagine a future that, for better or worse, does not yet exist. We see them

problems on the horizon. I think I've got an idea of a new in the outlying folks. We are passed. The tipping point. We are I talking with them Are we have a good friend of the show very old friend? they met, Riddle and met riddle. Now we're talking about this recently, maybe the best analogy for where human civilization and climate changes now is to save this some free standing a little but let's say you're, still for some reason, driving that horrid Peugeot on the odyssey hybrid we made up earlier and you have careened off the road. You were at the points in a car accident where everything seems to slow down see the tree that you're going to hit you are going to hit the tree. Now is just a question of how much time you have to put your seat belt on, whether you have time to have an airbag or something like that. The car crash is coming

scary thing for people to think about what I want to think about it. But the statistics are all there. We ve mentioned the multiple times in past episodes Lake parts of the world are gonna, be uninhabitable. Without around the clock technology created, a more hospitable environment, as it is true I mean to naked in the sun Anima in our mind with decades ago, California bade her Irish Zone of Arizona they gonna run by basically is the old Nino, pretty the accepted I d other parts of California going to fall into the ocean and again the fear I mean that you can find multiple. I mean innumerable resources than that that show the stats heading in that direction is absolutely right. L a formula is like ground zero for so much concern me. No conservation, environmentalist kind of activism, hair black, really at risk near the that event, is further off in the future,

California falls away because of nine zero. tonic movements, but though the stuff we are talking about is is very real soon ones, where our place it will be underwater and the drought situation, and does it does defecation of places gonna continue, pre rapidly, verse this again? yeah it's just getting worse, as time goes on happened in your lifetime, real listening now by you. What you be more concerned about be your loved ones. You continue after you, real estate is going to become much more dicey, proposition and countries like the Maldives, for instance, are probably can be underwater, pretty soon clay, refugees are gonna continued to flee from sources than these, large scale changes talking millions of people, hundreds of thousands or millions on way to you. If you live in a place that will still be habitable things, you're gonna be

increasingly expensive and they're going to become unavailable and that's something that I would pause. It was a foreign concept, many people living in the United States in till college. shortages hit. Like a. I don't think, a lot, folks in the? U S are aware that in a week other places in the world you will in these situations where you stuff just isn't there, the grocery store shelves are empty. Even if you have. money. How dimension resource wars in our larger scale authority a thing that happens There were one or wars disputes GINO between. I believe Georgian Tennessee, if I'm not mistaken, that you now and those are real problems in terms of light potable water! In my who controls the resources. Now I mean you have to get do doom and gloom

think about how it wasn't mad MAX fury, road, that's like the most extreme version of that, but would mean water is, could be the most precious commodity of them all me and bright now we're seeing legal battles in a lot of those situations at least get in the United States, but those will quickly turn into more into situations. He s hand to hand combat any view. If you want to look at that to the earlier idea of science fiction, often becoming fact, nonfiction do check out a great collection of short story, called pie, six one of the stories is about is a pretty plausible scenario about the future of water and privatisation, or check Our episode on World WAR, three are episode of water. Wars are Youtube videos on it. The truth is out there. The facts are in these are not. These are not conspiracy. Is but we're going to the conspiracy. Big thing is concerned.

no solutions as we outlined, don't work. We can fill our debating them their pros and cons they coming all sorts of warms you'll, see the glossy pr pledges from insert company here. Lego says this Mcdonald says that you also see those non binding resolutions from international organisations. You in committees, see. Any number of TED talks, you'll see sweeping declarations from billionaires like Bill gates, says we need to fix their sir, that or whatever and two to be clear. The vast majority of those proposed solutions are made in good faith and there may be very intelligent people, but they fall short. Are there rules and they feed from the headlights. It makes sense that the feed from the headlines, because, let's face it through, spears realist, most people don't like to think about the end of the world, especially if they feel like I've got a pretty good right. Now. There also not sexy, because their long term solutions. The Ethiopian.

One want instant gratification, so it's like It's a lot to ask for people to like think about ten years down the line when they can have something. Yesterday, specially for only in office for forty eight years, we have seriously, I would pause it, be biggest problem we face is that these solutions to these problems are not inherently profitable inherent in neurons. Yoke did well being scientists are right. I mean who, who, pays you right now to clean cars. Out of the ocean there, their meaning rooms from colleges in companies that are attempting to do that kind of work and develop technologies for that, but whose pay you outside of maybe a government grant, because The end of the citizens are paying more taxes, so that then, happen in its just: it's not it's not mediately, appealing to anyone other than

individual self preservation or the need for me. Maybe they figure out how to turn that ocean cleaning stuff into like the spice, melons or something you know, but other than that. It's pretty good That's where you see more, like NEO, liberal market based approaches. That's where you that's. Why outfits like the economist always so Twitter painted about a carbon tax? what I mean I n is that is that a viable solution? Some people are convinced. It is People are convinced it's not, but but what we are living the sixth grade mass extinction, for anyone who is looking for another example of a mass extinction think about why we don't dinosaurs anymore, right, like we have things there arrive from dinosaurs, chickens, etc. but you're not going to see a deranged until cool cloning goes my euro cloning breed

some breakthroughs, or maybe it had over me we'll see an end, have t t Rex who knows directives, but the issue is that I think about this a lot, and I wish more people admission. this we are living in. What is commonly called nowadays, the anthropic she right now no about like the pleiocene etc. The anther beseeching is just a dress up word for the age of humanity and it is overwhelmingly likely that the biggest legacy all these people who have lived and died, will end up. Leaving is a wreck earth is a mass extinction, we're in the middle of it. It is happening. It is possible that the idea of wild life will soundly crazy story to your grandchildren? That's again, I'm not being hyperbolic. This is happening

and this is something people knew about for more than half a century, and this frustration turned to desperation and Some folks said we have to go beyond writing. Letters are going to protest or just recycling. You know four five cent refunds, Venerian, always turn in a glass bottle or something, and that's where saw the rise of something called Ratan. environmentalism in the night, in sixty, so we can dive into a more that ideologies. The show goes on, but from rat who environmentalism? We see the rise of people and groups who decided, let's cut past easier

so doomed negotiations negotiations skip beyond the half measures, those so called toothless proposals. Let's take direct action today. Those people are known as eco terrorist, but what are they? They pause pause. Tell you you afterward from our sponsors every week on park, easy, would sound proposal. I invite an activist artist or politician to come to the table. And speak from the heart and ways you probably having heard from them before so my favorites are, with George Saunders, floored brand Liebowitz, Matthew, Mokanna, hey Ginea, future Khan and run the jewels. If that sounds eclectic, it's because it is wanna, make a show where one week we could sit with the politician like Ill Hano MAR the next, a poet like and long or tv tie like Norman Lear and had danced the support Castro

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gas or wherever you get. Your part gases cheers where it gets praise, I told you guys earlier, I figured it out my favorite ego terrorists, captain Planet as play by Don cheating, ask overtures get sketch and get you know. I get it and get it I don't know if I agree with them, but I get where come from. He is he's, he's an ego terrorist ego terrorist. What does it mean its portmanteau, obviously, ecology plus terrorism, its combo, not quite as popular as peanut, butter and jelly, and at first glance it feels really loaded term like you would hear this on far right news right, some, would say these people wanted.

up in a whale pipeline there, eco terrorist, you know what I mean a next stop the war on Christmas. It feels very, very biased, but I found something interesting. The the far left activists we're described as he go terrorist, they had a war with the far right to control the definition of that were, and they were saying stuff like hey we're, not the ego. Terrorist acts on mobile is ego terrorists. They art, terrorizing earth, with what they're doing unfortunately, the left lost that payment, and so now, when you hear ego terror, you have to be really conscious of the source because you might just be hearing leg up. They hit peace from a corporation disguised as news. Absolutely no question about that term has been weapon eyes with the weather underground be considered. Ega terrorism are their domestic tears. They seem more political, specifically, but always kind of political, since the environment than politicize, so you're gonna fighting,

its policy to in Europe. When you're carrying out some of these acts, yeah yeah the whether underground probably assembly? diagram situation, some overlap in notable individuals, and so on, but they are there not there. I consider as focused on environmental issues. They were more oriented, as you said, toward a political change like the big proponents of communist ideology. I I don't know when I hear like when I think of conservation environmental groups. I think of it. The pan, the logo on the World Wildlife Fund or federation, or whatever its caught euro, the other W W Ef, I think, of late. Sarah Mclaughlin telling you to treat puppies I actually only arms of the angels. I was just talking to my get about that. The other night she'd never dead, the privilege, experiencing that add campaign with the sad, but in this

Authors and Sarah Mclaughlin sat a song in the world, especially when paired with sad puppies yeah yeah, but this is like, like when you think of this kind of activism. You probably ever stereotyping your head right. There's this there's a scent of potentially wafting through the air someone's playing the tar. Everybody is wearing something that somehow made out of him. You probably don't think people watching our p jeez at nuclear facilities, but that's part and parcel of this eco terrorist art a fine by their tactics, more so than their ideology, but ideologies, part of it. These are act there perpetrating acts of violence against people or property or companies with the aim of not killing folks but disrupting actions that they feel are damaging

to the environment, and the word itself is is kind of new. It's from like the ninety, sixty years ago, coordinating seventies gets popularize, but the idea using Gary Attack takes to fight the power is up It's like surprisingly old. A lot of people have done this. A lot of people like banded, together in sort of aid, we must protect the wild kind of vibe one example is in France, in eighteen, twenty seven, a bunch of peasants revolted against the government's new codes guarding forestry and how to heart resources from the forest who could do what etc, and they went in flout. Wards go the war of the maidens, so they didn't quality, go terrorism but that's what was that's what we call it today? The french take foraging seriously, Additionally, take the example of indigenous:

native populations in the Americas when Europeans came to colonise this and they they have very different philosophies on I human should relate to the land right native populations fought to protect their philosophy. Which was clearly less exploitative than the page that these colonials we're coming? In with it's weird, a ton of people throughout history, fought wars over how they feel land should be used or preserve, and when we talk about ego terrorist there are real Genuine groups that can be described as such. It's nice when you say it's not like one loan actor right, it's not some. The quorum quote unstable person going rogue right. These our group should get together for this purpose, and I was surprised to find that the F

yeah I back in two thousand eight specifically named checked eco terrorist, as quote one of the serious domestic terrorism threats in the? U S today and they backed up the reasoning to like they had First, I thought you guys are exaggerating, but then they laid out by the day out the rationale, and it does make sense that they would describe them as a serious threat. Yes, in this assessment was due to the volume of crimes over two thousand known incidents from nineteen, seventy nine to two thousand and eight. And if you, RO, the economic impact. those incidents. It was over a hundred and ten million dollars, and that also includes wider range of victims, the other companies and things were impacted by the actions and incidents The F B saw an increasing trend towards violence, and there is also a two thousand for FBI document. You can read on archives, DOT, FBI, DOT, Gov, that's from

for in it just it's the same kind of thing: it's a judiciary, committee, where they're talking about the extreme seriousness of eco terrorism, and they taking a very very seriously. Then this point, of course this where we all have to have that, got check with ourselves and say how much do I trust the FBI that point too. We are what we could do that or do. But let's, let's talk about some specific groups have been described as eco terrorist there's earth liberation front, or else I know it elf, but I, like Sate ELF, either stop hunt didn't animal cruelty or shack or ill personal favorite animal liberation front I'll. Just like that itself position cast. You think you wondering about, do. I have any email them yet: never your friendly well eating can yeah! That's true! Well, if you, if you get rid of catch your saving birds

so a lot of these groups are usually can be just on two things, one, some very! nor genre of radical environmentalism or two as some kind of animal Rights Initiative and in will may try and label other groups as eco terrorists, but there is theirs differences. Under the sea shepherd Group that we looked at not that long ago, the one You know how to ship in the Sixtys and Seventys, I can remember the exact time frame of seas, shepherds activities by those in the seventies where they were doing and actually running. In two ships there were wailing off the coast of Japan where there there take. violent action right. The weird thing the count, a grey area that it leads you to, though, is that sea. Shepherd was chief early

Allow me to say this generally fighting against people that work, begging, illegal actions or actions are illegal in new, no test country to some. You know group will Sid or illegal, even though maybe it's not illegal in one other country, and it just weird grey area, they can exist there because I'm also new about other groups that are animal rights activists, but are not animal rights debate take part in pardon enumerates terrorism necessarily, but it's right, the line it feels like because it just depends on the definition it feels like like throwing paint on a fur coat to, or something like that like is at a prank, is an act of terrorism, etc. It lays bare goes deeper than that too was they're. Yours, I'm not gonna name right now, but I don't have that kind of thing is is a bit weird because it will last

see shepherd again, I'm having such trouble seeing seat shepherd your name they're the ones that are concerned with, like the dolphin slaughter in Japan and things like that racism and they ve got a amazing ship that looks like it's. It means business, looks like a worship yeah. It's pretty shout out by the way, to our friends in New Zealand to rope to us in regards to that episode. That's where the event, with the sea shepherd occurred. I do check out that episode and don't let that story be forgotten in Europe. It was France, France did it. France did what would be considered. ACT of terrorism, in that case, in the name of the ship, was the Rainbow warrior, but, as has rail, what a great media ship bill, don't let the name for you. It is not a warm fuzzy, Karabakh type of ship. It spoke for business,

anyway. Now we know that Eco tax, vision? As a concept? Is it's not maybe quite what the name implies, because when you think of terrorism, you think of things like As for mass casualty? Events, you think of the nine eleven you think of bombings or gas on trains. You think of suicide bombers. The vast majority the of tax described as you go, terrorism are meant to disrupt activity and, in fact, you're here people who are involved in these groups and people lead these groups saying that they intentionally avoid harming humans. or animals, or that they do everything in their power to make sure no one gets hurt, but when, Palm oil hits the chocolate. Of course. These things can result injuries and fatalities, and I think we specially designed collisions and fires, which is subject

Evans pretty often yes, yes, exactly like we Not talking about your garden, variety protests, we're not talk, I'll just culture jamming. Although culture jamming is really cool thing, shout told discourteous in the crowd. Today we are talking about things like sabotage arson bombing. Mostly actions. Aren't that extreme! You know, there's stuff, like I don't know like tree spiking. If you guys heard about tree spiking gesture from reading the research on this episode. Sits. Devilishly reminds me of like me: now has a lot of miss permission around the like the idea of lead at the lights are wherever, like sabotaging printing presses, it's the idea of medium sabotaging a supply chain or something that does not. I realize you clean sit right with you. I guess what you'd be put you'd put things its Palmer spikes in the treaty, so that it would damage equipment potentially the near, but does not just equipment they would get damage. Rights deserve

People on the other side of the chain saws is, is the problem. That's the flaw in the system there so tree spiking like you described: no, you sneak onto a log in sight or a future lagging site an you hammer in some spikes in the trunk of a tree. Round where somebody would be attempting to cut the tree down. This is not going to kill the tree sank into serious damage to it. Just like tapping a tree for maple syrup is not going to kill the tree. So what they're doing is there a it's like if these trees were people? imagine if there was a way you could make everybody get an ear rings or a nose ring, and it meant that they wouldn't be shot in the street. That

weird analogy, but that's almost a hundred percent wonder what really quickly I know quickly. I did not damage printing press as it was like cotton mills, woolen, woollen mills and conscience things like that, I'm safe. Now let me slide with that terrible it now I'm I'm still thinking about it well they're, not all again be winners were wise, but but the problem with this is like milling equipment could also be affected by these tree. Spikes, if you have ever have you ve happened, experience blogging or with a chainsaw. You know that they can be quite dangerous if something goes wrong right, so in at least one case this is this tree spiking did result in a serious injury, but not a fatality, and so far none of the tree spiking things in particular have led to vitality,

They meant to be disruptive areas, also not lead to a major change in how the logging companies continue on you just get more acquitted, ending Keziah and then you may even you're, essentially creating a waste of large. You know or filled equipment. This is gonna go into a garbage jeeps or now you a good to think about if a guy you're someone trying out you good by taking this kind of action right person, you could say well well, it's it's still on balance, a good thing to do. as I am saving some trees. Maybe the logging company will say we don't know how many trees have been spiked. We can't check every one, so we're gonna at least hold off on lighting meal. We're gonna hold off on this part of our operation,

I would argue a lot of this stuff. A lot of these activities and tactics are just examples of the larger concept of sabotage. Which is known as monkey. Wrenching sabotage is a cool word. great etymology leave you to discover it. They there's also their buzz word. I found which I don't like is very rare Meta hate, aware by Eco TAJ, gives every that wouldn't you now is I can. They like Megan, like big scrap, booking sabotaging stuff for local ecological system. Either way. It occurs to me with those spiking thing and, like you know your point, madam I will I just get new equipment nowadays get new equipment. The hedge make it harder for, like you know the workers that they ve been bad, more security in out to the south. It's him and make it more prohibitive to work. There is in the same way they like the tea essay after nine eleven like China, the terrorists

when, except in making us have to now take our shoes off which then causes the price of lumber too I just slightly because a company has to charge more money to hire more people then maybe and ultimately wars it make them make more because gimme more profitable. Oh god, you see the feedback loop x s agenda so listen? Everyone is ego ties please do what they put. People do I will move on to a parity saw you that I will write the lyrics for that and we can. We can be the beastie boys for a second black boy to this. these actions, the services and sabotage in a very large way, inspire by a novel, written by a guy named Edward Abbey and nineteen? Seventy five, the name of the novel, the Monkey Rynch Gang, the Monkey Wrench gang far

who's a Vietnam that former preserve were named. George, hey Duke, who He is trying to fight back against people polluting the southwest. In desert where he lives and he loves lands we as a campaign of sabotage. This inspires the creator, these real life. He terrorist groups such as earth. First, you have to see it that way, because the x the major march in the name, her gird earth. First, exactly it sounds so nice so does elf. An sounded guy licence, although none of it looks It seems that nice, when it spray painted on the side of a trailer guys I've seen numerous versions of it just like hastily scrawled, you know what else on the night of the monkey, Wrench gang sounds like a charming Disney film from the forties. Like the Apple Dumplings Gang, you don't mean yeah yeah, exactly the

thing here is that those acts, those disruptive acts. They are can you in a grey we described like what what could be called just vandalism prank verses. What what do you call terrorist? I mean the FBI is pretty loose with there definition of terrorism and you can see that's by necessity, you could say that there is a financial motivation, because the more things that can be classified as terrorism, the more funding you can get for counterterrorism right as another feedback loop. but there are things that are very serious, very dangerous crimes. One would be arson elf, in particular the year left, became infamous throughout the nineties in early two thousand and four the consistent decentralized arson sabotage kind of campaign. The

did the arson of a ski resort and then other acts of art. were now ok, get thoughts on this week as other acts of our and we're things like housing developments, construction sites, Otto dealerships, chain stores, I want to share an example of something that is really stuck with me, and I was thinking about. This was researching the ethical dilemmas a play in this episode, so We have a chain restaurant here in Atlanta, in the U S called chick filet, cheerfully, I'm pretty much a sick little basis will get bad press in the news because they have in the past, supported things that or like anti same sex. Marriage Lear AIDS, it's very serve. It is Christian based chicken joint and there were when this

spite again a few years ago, and then we'll spoke again in the future, because chick is not really gonna change right. They ve seen that they dont lose a ton of money so that their euro they're not gonna, be compelled to change their ideology. Think of all the money they could make just staying open on Sunday. I mean are committed to the bit here right and looked full disclosure. True Cathy gave me money and tons of his books when I became an eagle scout nigh cash, the check you know what I mean a brook major so I'm in a glass house here near where we live the lines for Czech Foley's never go down, it doesn't matter, what time it is. There is always a massive line and they move super quickly. Those places make bank make down to a science may. Yet the logistics are real. No shame in that the Logistics are amazing, but here's one bringing up chick and the controversy with their political funding, was a video that went viral of this guy who goes to a chick fil drive.

and maybe guys you seen this- maybe some of our fellow citizens have seen this. This guy goes with chicks, lay DR threes filming on his cell phone, and Is this there's this kid she's a teenager? She has to work the drive through the trick fillet. and this guy is excoriated this child screaming screaming at this good, making her cry- because of chick Felice, conservative political ideology, that's super unfair, because this kid has nothing to do with that. This kid is like swinging sandwiches improbably, wants to get an a on her geometry quiz the next day, and that's like that's what I think about when I, here about someone's link, you work at a dealership and the dealership gets bombed. What Are you the one at the? U N, who makes decisions about carbon emissions? Know you like map the floor at a place that sells, as you leaves, are you used to

are you now you're out of a job, which is that greater good? I don't know think you can lose humanity very easily in those sorts of situations, it makes you drill down into this the Colorado, arson that we described that the earth liberation front. did the was specifically wanted. Avail Colorado happening one ninety eight. I believe, if you if you find like, there's an independent article that was written at the time about it and it through some of the specifics, and you learn how it's actually carried out. How dare you know fairer support only going to be timed, not explode vices www devices that would cause a fire to start on a gas tank. And they were set up all around this, this ski resort in Veil, Colorado, and it took two people to carry out the actual event where they set fire to at least three buildings

the fire spread after that point theirs in it, her sting moment in that article specifically that says the person that set the fires noticed there were human beings in one of the buildings where he had planned to set the fire but chose not to set the fire and that building which cannot be no makes. It speaks to the point where we ve been mentioning this whole time. The attempt isn't to kill a human. The the attempt is to stop larger thing from happening in this case it was the expansion of this veil ski resort, they're in Colorado. Is there take over more of the land. That was you know, at least according to this group's believes, that land should be kept. Now right? Any was one of the last places where o Lord Our time recalling article, but I believe it was one of the last refuges for the links need cap links. I think your correct yeah it's interesting to is another

bad situation with elf. The really shows how in the period you guys descried, where the government was really out to get these types of groups in and they were made would be priority, no matter what it took. There is a guy who is a member of elf, who is essentially framed a guess, her less by an FBI format, you infiltrated the group only referred to as Anna in the in the court proceedings and all that, and apparently she acted as an agent pro ensure that, at least according to the skies lawyer, beside the guy's name by the way was Eric Mackay in his lawyer me the argument that this Anna, who is providing them with bomb making information, materials and things like that that, unlike paying for them to live and Lena renting a cabin for them too, like build the bombs in transportation all alyssa, I was acting

you know, coercing them into making plans to bomb this dam, the Nimbus, Damn also the: U S for a service and other utilities in the area, and this I got off. He served eight years in some change, but that agent provocateur argument. Ultimately, you know convince a judge to have him released in that happened in twenty seventeen after he spent eight years and and some change of his life behind bars- and he can't get those eight years back- also check out our earlier episode. Does the FBI manufacture terrorist the answers yes, unfortunately, or certainly attempt to the railways, as the motivations in the level of awareness they had when they were doing this, but you can, you know that similar to the story about the mosque, who reported an FBI undercover agent for try? to turn people into suicide markets, maybe later life,

that's a little bit there with ours and is yeah. This the great set up for four Palmer final act. Today I do what point out something that's a little bit cynical here that you point. You noted that eleven members during the ski resort, arson one of them did decide not to pull up a building cause. He was worried that he would injure or but kill people right understand thing and is in line with the stated goals of these organizations. However, there is a there is a slightly less possible noble. Motivation for this- and this is something the summit might not know if you're not super acquainted with the criminal world, but if you are perpetrating Certain axing wrote you already know what crimes you are going to be committing. You want to try to do your back

to avoid more serious charges, that's why that's why? Some time robberies, right: If you see someone get shot, your you'll find at some criminals will purposes shoot. Someone cannot like below the waste or in lo the knee and leg, because then it doesn't count as attempted murder right is, is the concept I know that your mileage may vary. Please don't mug people in shoot them. Please, euro, just try not to kill anybody. I feel it it's a very low bar to set try not to kill people, but there I. I bring that up only because I'm wondering whether there was some kind calculus like that, whether its they said look. If we do get caught for this, we don't want to be charged with murder right. You just have to make space for it. Personally, I think they probably just didn't want to her actual people but again stuff to know peoples

innovations. You know who we could ask about. It is Josephine Sunshine over the one got away currently believed to be at large in Europe wanted by the FBI. Josephine. If you listening, we would love to have on the show. We just have to find you Our was a member of the left. Was associated with the ninety. Ninety eight attacks that that was talking about got him and there was one guy who just got arrested in twenty eighteen and he was on the run for more than a decade, but one of them did get away. Any out. This is still the most extreme example. You were promised in our p g conspiracy, realist and, at this point, you're asking yourself, whereas by our rpg, just like you know, Dennis in always sunny in Philadelphia. Here it is actual balmy, traveller, France, nineteen eighty two January eighteenth eco terrorist or super mad

there's a nuclear reactor being built. A nuclear power plant called Super Phoenix, which sounds so fresh acts so in in in the midst of these protests, these attempts to shut out instruction, sneaker terrorist actually go but our pj's military grade, racket propelled grenade devices from no one arms dealer, Carlos the Jackal. As really is called because no one. Rather there is the movie, the Jackal with bullets, his name Bruce Willis, Carlos the Jackal yeah. Real dude gave gave these folks of our policies and they fired them at a nuclear power plant was granted still reconstruction and years later somebody came out in man the responsibility for the attack a guy named Cairum Nissan, I who went on to become a swiss politician

and this guy's good politics. You can tell just from just Roquat we pulled he is in the event she later talked about this in a book. His statement of the events shows us a rationale: that's pretty common! With a lot of these direct action groups, and it's I don't know, I guess I'd love to hear everybody's, take on it who wants to who's gonna, go hide me some voice, I know that it might sound odd to consider rockets as a non violent means of action. However, we took ray imaginable precaution to be certain that no worker was at risk of being hit. Therefore, we committed a non violent attack. This is me with an army g. What why I mean your way through. It is violent attack in a way. It's true in another way is very, very much not

That's it must stay. Only nonviolent our piano about involves a twenty cited, die right, yeah this. So I thought that was Firstly, because you didn't see you can see, the rationale is textbook rationale and to me, since credit, no one was injured by that our Pga attack, but we're we're-

pause for a moment. We know today's episode is running a little long. Brute rigour pause we're going to come back and talk a little bit more about what this all means on Jake Halbert host of deep cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We control the courts, we control absolutely everything. He bribe judges and even helped a hitman walk free until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, by was too good to be true, there's gotta be something wrong with this. I would stress the guy. He looks like a lily.

the latter stoppage. If you look at what he was a rat, I can say with all. Certainly, I think, he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did any didn't anyway. The moment I put the way around the first time my wife was over. If it ever got up, they would kill me in a heartbeat this into deep cover on me. I haven't radio. App apple pie casts a river. You keep your podcast. hey it's dearly bought I'm here to tell you about my brand new Porthos duly by your services, will be sitting down with the world's most inspiring mines to uncover what makes them taken, what they ve love on their successors, failures and the obstacles. Life has stirred up them. We're going deep what people revolutionizing, not just their own industries, but also culture more broadly firmly. Today, The author, redefining what it means to tell women stories to the fashion, industry virtuoso alleviate boosting you'll, even every break,

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have the lovely age. A crimson me official princess of CALM fan Asia kidding and ass in the professor, were here on tv while broke into diameter break down my meal. They got me through a time when I was broke. Listen to eating law broke on the ice radio app on Apple Park, ass, a wherever you get your pockets We have returned served, this up? We have to talk about the importance of perspective right imports of empathy, humanity, and in the cliff upon which civilization is teetering for a lot. Thus, in the audience today, the ethical dilemmas are clear. First, yes, earth is in a bad way and second, yes, humans, arrest, spoke without dismissing the massive massive efforts of various institutions, we have to note that they they have not been as effective as people at home.

But on the other hand, I think this summer we're talking about throughout the link to the show how effective our these actions in the grand scheme of things, eco terrorism has more fuel to the flame of the surveillance state and, as a result, countless innocent people are, I get it for surveillance there is so much money in that industry. Yes, surveillance is an industry, but I'm just saying be on the mailing list of a vague and co op shouldn't Someone is automatically getting treated as the next Osama Bin. What like, I don't think you should be tracked, for those kind of things its proven that the FBI is doing that and we can see- All terrorism is regardless of ideology. Its inherently conspiratorial right, you are conspiring to do something. Ends terrorism your people have mentioned this is, after they should, but terrorism

is also in some ways and opportunity, for elegance agencies for people involved in the world of surveillance, because eight. it gives them an enemy right. gives them something to fight and pursue, and you could argue then this just valid argument. I don't know what the answer is. We you could argue that through These acts, these Eco terrorist direct action groups, whatever you want to call them, may actually be, powering the growth of some of the entities they seek to fight. You know I think, about that. All that like they are targeting the people literally bankroll politicians right, that's a lot from from knocking over dollar store or something? You know when we talk about all the time the people on the ground

their perspective. Various people, like anyone else, the average person on an the old drilling platforms and some arch, supervillain from captain Planet he's trying to not get fired. You know what I mean I want to go on vacation Sunday. They want to get home safe and they're, not dumb. In fact, most people, if their given the opportune he and the space to really think things through most people are incredibly intelligent means that people are working. On these oil rigs. They are aware of the problems oh by the oil industry. In fact, probably no more about it than people were outside of the industry. They know what they're doing in there. They're not trying to ruin the planet there trying to stay alive? Also, listen to me, This is the big thing about a lot of these sorts of tactics. Is it not clear that most people react adversely two hostile act violence, is very rarely get a prompt. Some, de Jesus critical thinking moment on the part of the victim, in others,

you're, a wailing ships. You a figure in Vegas Landon to buy a sea shepherd vessel, whatever is theirs someone's throwing stink bombs on then someone's trashing their equipment they're not going to say oh snap good, we should change our lives. You know what I mean: they're gonna be pissed, we'll bill back twice as mean a powerful, now come back on them to fold. That's that's the! Where that's where that prompts exactly, because that is a wherever and ensure the capital letters here, that is, how humans are for better or worse. It's been this waiver while is not going to change. the other side, the people that the media are calling eco terrorist, don't think of themselves as the bad guys, and they don't agree there not monolithic summer issue, specific save the whales, save the redwood, see vehemence et cetera and some are more extreme. Some people want to return the world to a pre industrial age, which is gonna happen. Unless

really terrible stuff happens first, but boy keep coming back to. I think we all keep coming back. To is simply this. The number Sir, we ve mentioned the various statistics that had been confirmed multiple times by multiple reputable sources, things you're gonna get worse before that and conventional approaches just don't seem to be moving the needle. That's where we get to the end of the show the questions, questions, no one's really managed to answer. What should be done? What can be done? You know that the clock is ticking and I know that the three of us didn't take any any, really hard stance on for it or against it. Cool, unquote, eco terror.

because it's like there's a lot to unpack here. I don't know I understand the impulse. I understand the frustration that would lead to thinking that only way forward is through extreme action. I think it's misguided oftentimes, but also what's the alternative, it so hard to get things done through policy. You now its heart and it's just Lake Slog Mine makes you wanna give our would such Hermes Ben cautiously nihilistic, optimistically night. sorry, I'm unattainable, that movie, don't look up again. That's on efforts are now. If you want to watch it yeah there's a great Ionian, Podcast called the last movie ever made. It talks with it, thinking how they made it, but specifically goes to the writing process of the script itself and why it was created,

and the reason it was created is because Adam Mackay was looking at the climate change issue and realized all the things we ve talked about today: the inevitability of the consequences that there's thing that any individual can do it feels like no change can occur and he just We all know that it's coming in people who are in charge. You could you know possibly make changes, can't make changes, because her hands are tied or they decide not to, this is not politically a good thing for them to do, and turn it into a movie about an asteroid heading towards earth, rather than just the slow death life on the planet. I would just like him: everybody go and listen to that. Just if you really want a good, downer yeah doubter what it you, but it really speak the desperation we're talking about here, of why somebody would throw their hands and say why I'm gonna set fire to sneeze for him billings. Maybe I'll change something

I mean the other. The other alternative is to try to rage against the machine right. Did you write what the machines that are making them right to the reference companies, they create the problems, but that is simply not possible for the majority of humanity. People can't just bike it's the riot versus protest distinction. You know they mean where it's like people are protest, being an you know. Some things get destroyed. Is that protest in or is that being cast as a riot as a pole, a way of framing at cheap to me. To spend it in a way that makes the protesters look like criminals? Yeah they're shades of that in this right. That's all agree, These are. These are excellent points in this is this. Is these mission critical, the human, civilization, its unprecedented people aren't sure what the right answers are. What the order of operation

are, and so that's where we lead on new fellow conspiracy realise what do you think? Do you agree with groups that advocate direct action? disrupt damage to the environment, or are these groups with them Steve intentions, ultimately giving more power to the same forces. They are attempting to fight. Should law enforcement, monitoring activist and if so, to what degree? We cannot wait to hear your thoughts. I will try to be easy to find and why eighty like social media, we got those we are, conspiracy stuff on Twitter Facebook, Youtube check out. This vote Right now on Youtube, if you want to this whole podcast is in video format, most of it broken up into pieces. Probably, but is there can watch our faces. Say things like this actually you probably can't even see this more because they cut it out of the video on you, jokes on me,

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