Here's the thing: saving money with Geico was almost better than playing pick up basketball, because there's always that guy who joined your game, He never passes the rock he constantly Rex theories and who completely happy when put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with Geico, it's easy to switch save on car insurance, no fake, an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted. So which is safe with back it's almost better than sports. You or me, the tune into the planned gas candidates. Talk what no one with blue Joe Grundy and marking Craig Waterman the pop brothers that law we are the world's number one part cast for everything cannabis. Another part cast cannabis talk one on one. We all share a passion for entertaining and educating the cannabis community will be discussing the pros and cons of all things cannabis, including new laws and regulations. Listening

There is talk wanna, one on the eye: heart, radio, app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast from you at those two psychic powers and government conspiracies history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or learn this stuff. They don't want you to know a low and welcome to the show. My name is not on the absence of man I go. First, then, is correct. Oh me, then, we are joined, of course without were super producer, Paul Deck and, most importantly, or You are here, and that makes this stuff. They don't want you to know. I guess at the top. We would would have to say that today's episode is about music in your hearing it in an audio format. So we want to be one to be very clear.

That some of the things you might hear in this episode may well apply to part cast but think We were still little wild West out here in that area, Math video game. It was like a guy arcade game with a gun I was called revolution acts. I do vague remember the age she'd cities at length, weird, like mutant kind of mad max type gas mask wearing creepy crawlers life and the tagline for the game was music is the weapon. That's Do you remember that? That's correct? That's all I got dieting. That's, I think. That's a great place to start because we in the past looked at the use of music is a weapon. No wait. No! We didn't! That was a fake script error. For an audio drama, a radio play that we did some number of years ago. What was the one about the cursed record italian matter? There see annex That's the name of it here. Ok, so we didn't. I

We do in episode, music as a weapon. We have a fake script and we have a fig episode Asher. I was a radio play here, check that out. If I think this is the perfect time of year to listen to that, we need find episode. Our other show ridiculous history about X rays, that were used to pirate music back in the days of russian hipsters, none as the still yogi. That's true you can, listen some of that music online, but maybe we can listen you sample of it on that episode, to do check out ridiculous history and manage expectations. Those records. What that's that just goes to show the idea of music is a weapon, the idea of the desperate links to which people go to to encounter music that they enjoy. The just goes to show how fundamental music is true. The human experience music is one of the earliest human technologies. Music predates written language and also pay.

Dates most likely spoken language in two thousand and twelve. There was a high resolution- carbon dating examination of some fleets from the gaze of coastal a cave, and they found that these flutes were forty two to forty three thousand years old and the earliest recorded written language dates to at the most generous level, Sumeria Circa, thirty three hundred BC, and this means that for thousands of years before any one successfully propagated a written alphabet of any sort, our species plead music across the planet. It's likely the first language our species was capable of using. I was able to exhibit complexity, nuance and universality, which we know is the is one of the current arguments going on with music right now. Why do major tones tend to elicit?

similar emotions to people across the planet, more positive emotions, while minor tomes make people. A little blue, the balloon out not to be confused with the Brown out, which different a different note altogether. The blue note may be a little more real. Hopefully at brown note is a conspiracy theory unto itself. Indeed, now, let's fast forward thousands and thousands of years here we go until boom were here at twenty. Eighteen music remains the first spoken language or sung language of homo sapiens, and it's still so ubiquitous that we can guarantee you. You will almost definitely have heard a song in the preceding two hours or you will hear a song in the next two

worse and it may be a song. You seem to yourself and maybe a snatch of song on the radio but its surrounds us. Why? Here the facts? It's one of the world's oldest industries right up there with prostitutes. But music is also one of the world's most successful industries by twenty twenty one. The music industry revenue in the United States alone will total over twenty two. Point, six billion dollars, and that's just here and Uncle SAM Land that is, streams, verses, actual hard record sales ban right. It's tough to tell increasingly horse streams and right, obviously, then record sales. I believe in civitas decline, except for VI. Gina pretty well, I was wearing a new new heyday, but cds, oh, my gosh would when's the last time you bought a cd.

I haven't bought a city in the ten years, I'll buy CD. My friend shows sure. If that's all they ve got, you prefer Cosette even or vine off the horse, vinyl, and We have. We have a lot of friends were musicians here on the show, and we understand the appeal that it's the business is so huge because its tapping into universal human desire, and because, on some level, haven't we all at least once or twice dreamed of being a famous professional musician, yes being on stage Now the song I standing at across the world. Yet there was my original dream before become before my second dream of becoming a pod. Castor may go go I was going through the top three, your childhood dreams, you doing very, very well, podcasting, wasn't really around when I was a wee lad, so it was a sort of a new dream by I'm happy with it. It's similar to becoming an astronaut. You know

and in american music. In particular, we have this image of the quintessential sing songwriter moving up the ranks for obscurity to stardom, based on maybe a little bit of luck a tremor. This amount of talent, fierce independence, the ability to make it on their own on their own Merrick by themselves. At least. That's that's the image that we get sold so didn't like Likud. American idol still goes on their here's, my sobs story. Here's my cover up. Lady Gaga Recapture song, and now I'm going make my own album, at which point usually never hear of them again. How true is this idea? How true is our our narrative of a person or a group of people a bear,

rising through the ranks independently. How much fact is in that story? Really here's where it gets crazy, low bitterly? Yes, fine, I knew his countrymen didn't know is coming quite so soon, whether you do the honors, ok sure bent. While he bless me, the music that you here is largely controlled by a vast, powerful set of forces, just a stone's throw behind the velvety curtains of of the stage and just inside you Originally we had that type doubt as vast powerful forces, just that were a curtains. Throw behind this day turned throw Mohammed stage I kind of like it now I kind of like it's. Maybe let us know if, if you think, that'll catch on, but but yet

You're, absolutely right you just after the side, just barely out of that. In the course of your eye. You can see these vast forces exercising their control over ears. You hear buds and your headphones. You speakers, one happy and how far can you through a curtain will set the? That's? U can throw back a curtain, you can throw back a critical, throw it open. I you can cause a revelation yeah we found several platforms or several spheres are pillars of control through which these various forces control the music that you here, not just when you turn on the radio fellow conspiracy, realist, but everywhere you go and we'd like to tell you about a few of these. My my trusty co host, know you and met, have probably at some point experienced one or two of these things.

First, when is payola. Now I've never been another bit high enough in the musical ranks to Dick Sperience payola. Thank you Ben flooding. Perhaps you have been victimized by its possible highly unlikely that so pale is the practice of paying a radio station or a radio station owners for air time, and it is in that form league illegal by its citizens. The equations who x amount of money the station will play the song a number of times right and it's like I said it's- it's pretty badly illegal, but there are some criteria ripened year, so payload, despite sounding like a very strict, A brand name for a granola bar is a very common practice that technically only illegal according to the FCC. If the transaction is not publicly disclose to the audience somehow or if the fees paid go directly to the dj rather than to the station,

so, for instance, let's say that Matt Paul no, and I and an you too. If you want to join our ban, let's see we have a great hit song, called all we'll be revealed an our song becomes a hit because our were attached to a powerful label, illumination global unlimited and they Pay radio stations across the country- let's say ten thousand twenty thousand dollars a part to play this song three times so once an hour during their Blake three hours. Primetime radio block, then? All of a sudden, all all will be revealed, becomes a fantastic kit, but. If no one knows that the only reason becoming a hit or getting that air time is because we're giving tended twenty thousand dollars directly to dj across the country. We ve broken the law, here's the

thing payola is very, very difficult to enforce its standard, if often occluded or hidden practice in the music industry- and you can tell just how old it is because of the name. It's portmanteau. So no, what? What do we know about the name? Pale ass right then say, combination, its old old combination of pay and Allah Your common suffix is used for product names in the early twentieth century, like you got. Pianola Victrola Amber Roller, Cray, Yola Rocco Le Shinola. I love our and yet reached its heyday. Payola didn't even have Motorola, for example, while an Victrola in particular that see it's an audio d s right and its rights, and also Motorola, which was a red

equipment manufacturing company, so pale are reached its Hey day when the music industry was literally run by the mob. That's true, sir. Eurostat observes sopranos. That involves one of the characters like great on, origin labelling works used to work for the record industry and he likes stall. Sir thanks from, like you know, young black artists in had a moment, though town thing kind of that yeah I haven't seen another, so it was interesting. So the way This would work in a hypothetical example would be that super producer, Paul deckhands move. Popular radio show in Atlanta the young, kids hop and bought prude skirt our good shape down by various enforcers like the legendary Maddie two hands Frederick, who offers him money but makes him and offer he can't, refuse and soon away the dj sort of forced to play. This record, whatever this record, may be.

This caused a huge scandal, especially in the fifties through the seventies in the late nineteenth Fifty, there was a congressional investigation into the practice of payola, but despite that investigation, this practice continues today and most definitely affects the music that you all here, at least when your casually true tuning in too many radio stations, the Federal Communications Commission and they Communications ACT of nineteen. Thirty, four both try to fix the situation they have strict requirements are rules. Regarding the issue of payola, they demand the following: that employees are broadcast stations programme produce, whose programme, suppliers and others who, in exchange for every material have accepted work, reads, receive payment services or other valuable consideration must disclose this fact. Disclosure of compensation provides broad, since the information they need to let their origin,

tis no material was paid for and by whom such pretty clear there just ain't be transparent totally. Despite that requirement, which freely isn't that big of requirement, I guess they just want the music to seem genuine and not purchase, Despite that requirement, many very successful record companies. Labels have found tons of loopholes to continue the practice legally, and this goes back to our early example. This is how it affects independent, an artist. So you remember you and I mackerel, more and Ryan Louis sure the thrift shop. Yes, carbon tax, that's the word yet so. These guys were on an independent label and they were concerned that they wouldn't get air time because they didn't have the infrastructure or the legal support to pay radio stations to play their songs, so the MAC onward

and this is according to their manager the times that quillan they hired in it. Pendant arm of Werner Music Group, called the alternative distribution alliance and they paid the alliance a flat fee every month to promote the album and so that this money went to the alliance and part of that money went shortly to read you stations. So, despite functioning on an independent label, they were forced to play all with the large label just to get airtime, because these large labels outside of may be college radio. Ten who control what people here on the airwaves. So that's it. That's the first way that external forces control what you hear it, in the Haiti of payola. It didn't pay

particularly matter what radio station you decided to tune into whenever genre you found. There would be something like this in the mix at play, but that alone is not enough. Two entirely Tipp the scales, because you could just say well one if I just don't listen to the radio. What if I only by records, I only listen. They re only phonographs whatever, and I only into music there, I find in stores that I buy. I just listen to music. That, personally call to me, because I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul, I'm going to go Invictus, I know what I like and that's what's going to steer me steer me through all this hoopla and all these big time record company, trying to brainwash me and the like in some their wooden ordinarily like the. Why would they do that?

to what end, I'm glad you asked glad you asked, because it turns out that the decisions we make about the music we like may not be as independent as we would. We would prefer to think we'll delve into the science after a word from our sponsor this episode of stuff. They don't want, you to know is brought to buy Lifelock tax it is here, it can be a paying its an emotional roller coaster. Sometimes it's all feels worth it when you open up the mailbox- and you see that one on the low pupil waiting for unless it Sal. Somebody else already filed your return, which is a real thing. Look into it. It's kind of scary, during taxis in your personal info, like your name or social security number. All that stuff can be made in shared. More than usual is true. Criminals can steal information from

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He's lyrics? Combinations of those thing was that malarial, the yelp yeah sort of like that song that Tarzan saw, but nor is like that that exact millennial, yellow this and that is hot within all the time. It may have waned a little bit and marry you still here it pretty pretty frequently. Have you ever ask yourself waters watch me also Clonmel, slam nowadays guess what you're right? It's a coincidence. You're not going crazy. You. May be getting old, but that happens to everyone. We found that there's a reason. Alot of popular music sounds increasingly similar. Let's, let's just dive into this stood. So there was an f r m. I study in two thousand and eleven, and it proved to us that the emotional centres of our brains, including the rewards

others are more active when we hear songs that have been played for us before, in fact these areas are more active. Even then when people here unfamiliar songs that fit better with their musical taste. So what this means is like, what's in of noxious pop song, it mean what's nine noxious Macarena. Macaroon is pretty bad, ok, so less! Let's go with that. So I Baker some problems. I pointed out. There are quite a few. I saw mockery, though you know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but for a time people heard constantly and after us, an amount of listens, a certain number of innovations of hearing this song, then the emotional centres. Reward centres included, would ping for When you heard the mockery. Even if their favorite music was say, heavy metal or gospel, and they heard

they heard another new gospel longer new heavy metal song. Their brain would not be as rewarded as it would be, Hearing Macarena just one more time is not crazy, tat S pretty grazing. So, in short, this this is a fundamental switch. Ok, in short, this proves while we often assume a song is played a lot because its popular the opposite is true, the song is popular because its played so often and we all fall into this trap of loving familiar things. You like this, nor its sometimes we refer to as a musical Stockholm syndrome. In Stockholm Syndrome, of course, is the phenomenon in which victims other of a kid being or some other crime where their held with their captors. For a long time will begin to sympathize

with them and say you know what they're not that bad? I kind of get whether come in from interesting, but we're we're familiar with Stockholm syndrome. It gets it gets mentioned in all types of crime fiction. It occurs in real life, but this Stockholm effect seems to happen with. Culture as well. It's not just kidnapping yeah, it's true. I, the scientific term, for this phenomenon is the mere exposure effect and that was discovered in the sixties by a guy with a delightful name. First name is pretty standard. Robert last name. Is that song Oh that's all I like that. Maybe he's maybe, as a polish z, age, eight and see, and it can apply to thing: images shapes songs or even people. So that means that check this out. That means

the more often your exposed to certain image religious. This shape, like maybe someone, decisive hack, your brain by changing your workplace and putting just a bunch of inverted triangles intent of in conspicuous places. You are going to begin to notice the shapes and you'll. Probably the argument goes eventually. I should become more familiar with them, enjoy the more or associate them with reward and comfort. In Robert Zoellick, study participants reported liking, songs, more the second and third time they were exposed to them in this same response occurred even when the participants weren't aware that they have been exposed, the song, so they walk in maybe to sign up for the study and softly in the background, no explosions in the sky or Godspeed you, black emperor or a Katy Perry Song or something is playing the point. Is it doesn't matter what the

yes, if people, if people's brains are registering it, even if they are not consciously aware of it, that's when the familiarity begins to build. So you know we talked about this LA affair and on air There are a lot of album, sir or songs. They come out new that we say well at first. I wasn't feeling it But then I had let it grow on me and I listened to it some more times and then I began to realize I really liked it you I mean, I think, a lot. I actually think a lot of high schoolers went through that with Radiohead It is true that they know they're at the most specially their ladder records. You know the first one serve a little bit easier to stomach right away, and then you know little kid ale, Lemnius Yak. It takes a little bit more taste kind of you know. You got a kind of like work, your way up to have to get back to good thing, it's good for you and that's those are

Dr listening tracks are, I also say yes, active listening versus, like the the hooks are much more apparent on the first two Radiohead records and like the song structures, are much more traditional, whereas when they started kind of switching things up anymore experimental, it's a little bit, it takes a little bit more of an effort. I'd like to see what they're going for, or a little bit more familiarity with the kinds of influences that they are harnessing or summoning. I guess yeah. I think that's a good way to look at it and I think those are valid points. What the science shows us is that the human species can easily mistake the fluidity of our ability to identify and fully comprehend a song with us actually liking it. So we seem to say: oh, I know this song and make the simplicity

That means. Oh, I also like the song. So once a song gets stuck in your head, once you get an ear worm, it might quickly transition from being irritating to being. What are your job when you're hot summer jams. We have a video that super producer, Paul Deck and I did on the science of ear worms. So please check that out. Maybe we can posted win episode goes live. Couldn't you if you want to learn more about this here? Thank you, and this or a drag you too hard on this now, but when there is licking the signs of this, I thought how many times there's no need to hear Hobo Johnson, that is, they ve got over just how many times has no need to hear Hobo Johnson before it becomes his his hot summer day,

Well, here's the problem with Hobo Johnson, then one of men with, but that's on, israeli, have a hook. The guys just kind of wine wrapping menacingly, why, my god, what I wanna would read wine like W H, I any re sort of like emo rap and it doesnt really have a hook. It has no melody, so it's hard to like latch onto something to make it your summer jammed. But but the kid seem to like who am I to say, I'm just an old man is. I hope this was it got. You got your pie casting because I find it so endearing, though, though, how upset you are about that guy, I feel so strongly about. I dont you ve made us everything we're very busy here and you made us stop everything's. You could play the song while you told us how much you hated in, which was very strange. I'm sorry MA am I'm a strange one? I'm not I'm not against. Look. I have spoken word background, so I have no room to talk.

Let's get it no room to talk and were enacted about those good like an intentional dad joke. It's a happy accident, Barbara Happy accident, but this is this is approvable neurological phenomenon. This is what you this is your brain on songs. The twisted, is that the music industry is very very, very much aware of this, and that's why payola add deals, promoted videos and all that, all that chance matter, so much because they know what they can get the song in front of you. If they can control your environment such that they can make you hear the same songs repeatedly, you will increasingly like them. Other scientific factors also play a role. The context in which we hear a song is incredibly important, just as if not more important,

then the qualities of the song itself. This means that more tucked, the more times its song is forced upon. You the more opportunities the powers that be have to make your brain have positive associations with it. There is a great article, MIKE dot com. That has a fantastic example of this to quote from this article quote: if some one hears Oriana grandes smash it problem time, they're out with their friends, they will likely start to associated with good times and good feelings, regardless of the songs, actual lyrics songs. The industry foisted upon us constantly then have a far better shy becoming popular than ones without the machine behind them, then this is true and feel you know it's funny to it actually works

both ways. Oh yes, lorries chemicals had make Eurostat because it depends if you associate like a particular song with like something like a break up early condemning the family or something if a song is very popular in your hearing, all the time, azure feeling these emotions you're going to associate that's with that set of emotions. I remember when the song dark horse by Katy Perry was really big. I was in San Francisco for the first time in many many years, and I had a really great time and it was also kind of an emotional time in my life was it the kind of the end of my marriage. I was with my ex wife and was so the last kind of her are that we had like as a married couple so

forever. I will associate that song with very complex emotions, both happy ones and sad ones, but that song definitely makes me feel stuff every time. It comes right and it's interesting because that that the connection of courses is specific to individuals or groups of individuals, it's not universal, which has put me in Euro. I don't, I don't have a ton of feeling, so it's awkward for me sometimes to be in situations where someone's like. Let me play the song, that's very important to me and it's you it's it's something that they have very sound,

deep emotions about, but it's kind of up like a pop pop song from their childhood or its liquor taken all time, grand old opera song. You know end what they're really doing hazard third telling you about their lives through music, but it can be weird if you don't have the same associations which, why becomes even more important to any date, the the environment with that song, so that people make the same associations. Also San Francisco, a beautiful town. It is beautiful, tired! You got to get a debt, I've been a couple times sense, but I always think back. Never I hear dark horse to that. One particular trip and we can't stop here as they say in inception, we have to go deeper. This sort of psychological manipulation is not limited to the radio. As you said, it in bars and clubs in public centres, and especially

in retail situations, where professional playlist makers work to make unobtrusive comforting groups of tracts elections of songs. That will ultimate hopefully make you more likely to purchase things, even if you don't need them- and this is a two way Street the artist or their owners as well as in put it a good retail playlist, can bring home the culture of a business and psychologically effect a customer in a way that doesn't feel pushy and its positive for the featured art, in today's flooded musical climate, where new songs are published and crazy raid on the internet, having your song play in Victoria's secret. The store, for instance, can help cut through the noise. Then no, I will I will thing with you say I don't wanna. Leave you out there by yourself with a with a personal anecdote. I went through something so

or when I was in London with a song by arctic monkeys and I'm not the biggest arctic monkeys fan, but that song happened to be playing. While I was on a tragic and doomed adventure abroad How I was at least you look good on the dance floor. That's all I know is the would be funny if those it was one of them. Yeah. I think you're right it was these song when the sun goes down and I realise that that is not that song itself. The lyrics have nothing to do with what was happening to me at the time, but because I was exposed to that song in their period of my life. They are inextricably intertwined, and there you have it most of the music. You specifically, you here is likely controlled by teams of experts and multiple fields were

Sid joyously behind the scenes for large brands and labels, many of whom have significant financial ties with each other to continually play the same songs or similar songs over and over and over and over again until they feel familiar and comforting. And, most importantly, until you feel that you have decided that you chose to listen to it and making is like a cat is like macro level. Gaslight. It come again really is now industry designed around Gaslight NO has the prevalence of this industry lessened with the rise of more arguably democratic media platforms like you, tube, sound cloud, Spotify, sort, sure sure, yes, ok,

horse, but that's very similar to say, look that redwood is ten feet shorter than it was ten years ago. It still gigantic. The effect is still there, but this still doesn't entirely answer the question. We ve only answered part of the question who controls the music that you here, because it starts, of course, with the people who make that music and the problem is, there are far fewer of them. Then you may have initially we'll be back after a word from our sponsor here's. The thing: saving money with Geico was almost better than playing pick up basketball, because there's always that guy who joined your game, He never passes the rock he constantly Rex theories and who completely happy when put his hands up and say no foul, no foul with Geico, it's easy to switch save on car insurance. No, fake, an ankle sprain because you're absolutely exhausted. So

we can save with Geiger it's almost better than sports. Hey, I'm Andy! If you don't know me, it's probably because I'm not famous, but I did start immense grooming company called Harry's. The idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades, most brains were overpriced over designed and out of touch at Harry's. Our approaches simple cures, our secret. We, sharp, durable, blades and seldom at honest prices for his lower two dollars. Each we care about quality, so much that we do some crazy things like by a world class german blade factory upset. Over. Every detail means were confident and offering a hundred percent quality guarantee millions of as I have already made, the switch to Harry's. So thank you. If you're one of them and if you're not, we hope you give us a try with the special,

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but we have never heard of him or seen any of US performances. Yet this guy, this single manage possible for more hits. Then fill Spectre, Michael Jackson or the Beatles saying he has proteges too, who are in their own right, intensely successful guys by the name of Mikel Erikson's, deserted and norwegian guys by the way and tore Herman sin in addition to Lukas, got worlds and any get Esther Dean tacked on the in their from Helen from home. I'm sorry actually, they use pseudonyms, but she probably arbitrarily familiar with me- Ex Martin STAR Gate, Doktor, Luke and Esther Dean either. No Esther dean must be fair really put in the minimal amount of effort with this pseudonym. Her real name is Esther with in Asia and in the suited him. She just took out the age you ve probably heard of Doktor Luke was embroiled in a very high profile, lawsuit with them with cash. I believe

that's right. That's probably how most people here really is these these? Our folks don't make their own records. They don't really there not front people there behind the scenes for sure- and here are some of the heads that you that these folks responsible for MAX Martin Sandberg wrote many of these, among others, bad blood by Taylor, Swift and Kendrick Lamar featuring Chemical, more can't feel my face by can I kissed a girl S, Katy Perry, one more night, not sure who, that is at least twenty other billboard, hot one hundred number one heads Mason someone with a third most number one singles on the chart, trailing only Mr Paul Macartney Surplus Macartney. Excuse me at thirty two. You and John Lennon who had twenty six and MAX born, is still in the swing. Career, so he may well transcend that he may well have, since this article was originally written, its he's likely. So that's that's studying what does this mean? This means that a hand

full of people, mostly oddly enough middle age, scandinavian guys have been writing. The majority of America's pop hits it's an open secret, but its closely guarded and its protected by levels performers themselves, because we all want to have that vision of the single strong, independent person or the group of incredibly talented p. Banding together, literally and rising through the ranks, but the performers themselves have identities that are brands. There is carefully constructed as their songs and their dance routines and, as we said here, it stuff, they don't want you to know we're friends with tons of talent and musicians and within the industry. Most people are aware of this letter. Call it consolidation to a degree. However, for the casual audience member, it can be incredibly disheartening to realise that this is similar to the banking industry

the health care industry, mining industries and other businesses. Music is increasingly consolidated, monopolize in their using the same practices. We're talking about outsourcing focused being gargantuan marketing pushes more. I learned that some pop stars have writing camps where they send team Of people to spend the summer writing their next, it totally and there's a label representative that kind of like where's the whole thing around. They refer to this person as the camp counselor there's a term that I just learned. Actually you wanna, when top liner is full the top liner someone who's their particular skill. Is writing vocal melodies exclusively and that's the thing about these emu right you got like specialization, is like a high sea, got like the beat guy you're out the guy. You got the top line or two the vocal melody you know, and it's all based around.

Same kind of psychology and mental manipulation that goes into like marketing. For example, so we're talking about like you your warm worthy nets are ear worm quality, making these words up those who buy. You know it's like it's all about. What's the shortest possible most catchy thing that can be written into song, and that's what they're going to do and they're gonna like focus group that they're gonna like workshop at right yeah- and this is the there's the other thing of theirs. In addition, focusing in work shopping, they have metrics that they already built in, You sound touch points, J Brown who cofounded the record label GC put the number at seven seconds. He said you need a hook of some sort, every seven seconds because I think average amount of time, someone will listen to a new song before turning it in listening to something else. Right so, like you have to have a hook in the

the beginning. You have to have a look in the pre course hook in the chorus hook somewhere in the verse hook back in the course of the break, every seven and there's also a technique that was invented by reggae artists in Jamaica, called the track and hook method. Where you compose the track the instrumentation instrumental of above a piece of music separately from the melodies and the hooks. So that's why you can have like up. You, Sir, deliver a track and then have like, hook, writer write something on top of that and they can be working like independently and so use the same beats for different self same wait for the results, and that is also why so much of this of the music we hear and pop sounds the same because it's it's meant to is interchangeable as possible, right That's nothing! That's the best way of putting it when you say yeah yeah, I think that's, I think that's a great way to put it we're getting some of the simple,

nation, from a fantastic in sobering book by an author named John C Brook this book is called the sewing machine and features these interviews with the powers behind the throne, and one thing that really struck me about the book. Is that there's there's a point where he discovers the formula, the formula that tons and tons of pop song to written to any describe? thusly, abbeys, pop cords and textures, Dennis pops, song, structure and Dynamics Dennis pop is the mentor of MAX Morton or Sandberg and then combined that with eighties arena rocks big choruses an early nineties, american or be groups signed a written by committee, often, as we said just skirting the edge of plagiarism all up

reading under the same proven assumption that sameness Cells- and that that is where we are at with the music industry. It's it's interesting, We were, in a conversation just briefly affair that relates to this. To this episode and today story. It's interesting because in other countries, this sort of industries much more prominent, much more visible and you can see the nuts and bolts They can keep up, for instance, there is not really a pretence at organic growth or individual independent meritocracy in cape up in the cape up industry. Children go to Kay pop academies, yeah and their there take the real, devoid band model, only even more militaristic, unlike intense, yet that's your leg groom for it almost right an insuperable competitive,

they don't really have a lot of agency in their own lives and their very much seen as the as the Tipp of this entertain. An iceberg and the real power them the influence of the people who make connections and determine which banned, rises and falls. Those forces are Rarely are rarely gonna be seen here in the U S, but their widely acknowledged to exist in cape option. I dont know I thought J pop japanese pop music is the same, but I wouldn't be surprised so where this, where does this leave us, which the future have any guesses. I don't know I mean, do you think it's gonna get me or like this, and because I actually feel that, like pop music has gotten a little less predictable in certain ways there certain artists that are like pushing the boundaries a little more,

but at the same time they are still artist that work with some of these hit factories. Like Re Anna, I think reactors music is pretty pretty interesting and unusual incorporates a lot more like dance hall kind of beads, and I feel like these the whole job of these guys. These hit factories is to figure out what the times crave and then kind of a just. According and it's sort of like you know you you in the past you'd, have areas like David Bowe who would do that, but now we have these kind of committees that figure it out and costly have their finger on the pulse of design guest so I don't know, I don't think it's always bad was produced by this kind of system.

But it candy. It certainly can be homogenous, but I feel like if it's too homogenous them, it's gonna bore people. That's a good point. Let me draw strange analogy here so for very wealthy western european nobility. In the middle ages, it was considered the height of luxury or huge status symbol to have a cook or a chef who could make food taste or look like something other than what it was so to somehow flavour Venice

or something so that it appears to be a duck. It still venison, though- and I wonder if there's some similarity here between saying ok, this song still a pop song- is going to feel more reggae influenced, but the science there is probably still the same, roughly there's, probably still an incremental of seven to ten seconds of something changing. Let me keep your attention. You know, MRS. We live in the short attention span. Theatre began, wonder how much it's actually changing. I agree with you that there is a ton more stuff that appears to be different, breaking out of them all, getting pass, this strange hierarchy of structure and sound, but ultimately the industry is not going to stop. It is simply going to evolve, and luckily we all of us, as individual listeners can still find.

Enjoy local, music or independent stuff. We can search forms. We can find Spotify playlists that we like another listening platforms, but that leads us to the question about how those songs on Spotify Pandora get recommended just like videos, get recommend you to which we did episode on earlier. So how does that all have it? Well, that's a story for Other day and no, I was wondering how we would. How would we close this? What's a good question, we could end on for all our fellow conspiracy realist out there here area about. Send us some, like pop songs that you find interesting and some that you find pedantic and repetitive and tell us why and what? What makes the difference for you there. You that's all

and ass the oh, I have so many ideas might be seen. But how can I tell you? Well, luckily, we are all over the internet. You can find us uninstall. Graham, you can find us and twitter. You can find us on Facebook, especially our community page. Here's where it gets crazy, where you can talk with your fellow conspiracy. Real is about pop music. For as long as you can stand to talk about pop music, you can also call us if you'd like to leave a voicemail. We are one thousand eight hundred and thirty three STD Wyck, and if none of that quite tracks and loops for you never fear, you can email us directly

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