Everybody its Robert and Joe here today, and we ve got something a little bit different share with you. It's an the addition of the podcast Smart talks with IBM, which is produced in partnership with IBM in this season of smart talks with IBM, Malcolm Gladwell, will sit down for chat with thought, leaders and industry innovators from IBM and beyond, to explore what it means to look at today's most challenging problems in a new way, look out for new episodes of smart top with IBM every month on the heart, radio, app Apple podcast, wherever you get your PA cast and learn more at IBM dot com, slash, smart talks.

Hello, hello: this is smart talks with IBM upon Castro. Pushkin industries are radio and IBM about what it means to look at today's most challenging problems in a new way, I'm Malcolm Global, Today, I be chatting with two IBM experts in artificial intelligence about the company's approach to building and supporting Trustworthy. I, as a force for positive change, I'll, be speaking with IBM Chief Privacy officer Christine Montgomery. She oversees the company's privacy, vision and compliant strategy globally. Looking at things like immunity certificates in vaccine passports, not what could we do, but what were we willing? As a company? to do where were we going to put our skills and our knowledge and our company brand in response to technologies that could help

provide information in response to the pandemic. She also co chairs there. I ethics board also be talking with Doktor says Doberman global chief officer and IBM Seth leads corporate a strategy and is responsible for connecting and development with the creation of business value. Seth is also a member of our beams, a half export. We want to make sure that the technology behind a I is as fair as possible. His as explainable as possible is as robust as possible and as as privacy. Preserving as possible will talk about the need to create a systems that are fair and addressed by us and how we need to focus on trust and transparency.

To accomplish this. What might the future look like with an open and diverse ecosystem with governance across the industry is only one way to find out. Let's died in one I'm curious about is the origin of this interest and concern about the ethics and trust component of a I always is later kind of of evolutionary concern about ten years ago, when we started down this journey to transforming business using what we think about his eye. I today the concept of trust came up, but not in the same context that we think about it today. Contacts of trust was really focused on? How do I know it's given me the right answer so that I can make my decision, because we didn't have to

Rules that help explain how I came to a decision. You tended to have to get into these bake offs where he had a kind of set up experiments to show that the day I was at least as good as human, if, if not better, and understand why overtime its progressed as a, I has in started to come up against real human conditions, and I think that when we started thinking about what going on where they I wanna relates to buy us, particularly in about five. Eight years ago there was an issue worth mortgage particularly related to the zip code, but started giving you know biases against people of certain races, and so I think those things combined of lead to us to the point where we are today, plus you know, their social justice movement over the last two years has has really

Celebrate a lot of the concern notice, you're you're, a lawyer by trade, is an interesting subject because it seems like this is where I experts like South and lawyers work together. It sounds like a kind of classic Cross disciplinary endeavour. You talk about that movie if absolutely cross disciplinary nature example. Our eye ethics board, I'm the co chair. The other co chair is our ethics global leader Francesco Rossi, whose oh well renown researcher in ethics. So she comes with that research ground. So we had a board in place and I am export in place before I stepped into this job, and there were a lot of great discussions among of researchers and a lot of people that deeply understood the technology, but it didn't have to see

in making authority it didn't have all stakeholders are many stakeholders across the business at the table. And so when I came into the job as a lawyer and somebody with the corporate governance background, I was sort of tasks with building. the operational aspects of it to make it capable of implementing centralize decision making to give it authority to bring in those perspectives from across the business and from people with different focuses within the IBM Corporation lots of different backgrounds, and we have very robust conversations and we also engage the individuals throughout IBM who either from an advocacy because they they care very much about the topic or there were

in the space individually and have thoughts around the topic are doing projects in the space want to publish in the space. We have a very organic way of having them be involved as well, absolutely necessary to have that cross disciplinary aspect you you mentioned Billinger hazard took spoke about robust conversations appraisal of can both. If you give me an example of an issue that come with respect to trust any eye. So so one example might be the technology,

that we would employ as a company in response to the covert nineteen pandemic. So there are a lot of things we could have done and I became a question not of what we are capable of deploying from a technology perspective, but whether we should be deploying certain technologies, whether it be facial recognition for fever detection. Certain contact tracing technologies are digital. Health pass is a good example of a technology that came through the board multiple times in terms of like if we are going to deploy a vaccine passport, which is not necessarily what this technology turn out to be. but looking at things like community certificates and vaccine passports, not what could we do, but what were we willing as a company to do? Where? Were we going to put our skills and our knowledge and our company brand in response to it?

Knowledge is that could help to either bring about a cure or help to provide I'd information in response to the pandemic covert is a great example, because it highlights. Value and the acceleration that good governance can bring, because the way that we as the Ethics Board laid out the the rule Does the guard rails, if you will around what we could wooden wouldn't do for covered help? People just do stuff without worrying that We need to bring this to the board and also lay very clear for this type of use case. We need to go, have a conversation with the board also provided a venue for us as a company to make decisions and make risk based decisions where ok this is a little bit of the of fuzzy area, but we think given what's going on right now in the world, and the importance of this were willing to take this

risk. So long as we go back and we clean everything up later, and so I think that's really important that number one government to set up so that it accelerates things not stops them a number two that there is clear guidance in to know. It's not know its here's. What you can do- and here is what you can't- do and help the teams figure out how they can still move things forward in a way that doesn't infringe on our principles. Here I want to give MR is a concrete sense about how a concern about trust and transparency in such we'd guide, what a technology

you might do now a real example. So if I want to make sure that people are wearing faced mass and then just highlight that there is someone in this area that not wearing the face mask and you're not identifying the person, I think we'd be ok with that. What we wouldn't be ok with that with is, if they wanted to identify the person in, play that they did not consent to, and that was very generic, so I'm going to go through a database of unknown people and I'm going to match them to this person, and so that would not be hey and fuzzy area would be. You know, I'm gone to match this to unknown person? So I know this is an employee and I know this is him. This is something that we the board would want to have a conversation with. If this employees not wearing a mask, can I met.

and to a name or do I just send a security personnel over here, because the employees not wearing a mass, that's a harder. I think, and that's a real world example that we face during covert Tucker limit about diversity and shared responsibility as principles that matter in this world away. I wouldn't what are those terms mean as apply to a I'm with the kind of practical effect of seeking to optimize those goals? You know, I think, first of all, we need

have good representation of society doing the work that impact society so at just the right thing to do be theirs tons of research out there. That shows that diverse teams outperform non diverse, Teamsters, Mackenzie report. That says, you know companies and the top portal for diversity outperform. There appears that aren't by like thirty five percent, so a good research. The second thing is you just don't get, is good results when you don't have. equal representation at the table. There's lots of good examples of this, so there was a hiring algorithm that was evaluating applicants and passion forward, but all the applicants in the past company, in the vast majority of the normal and so females were just summarily wiped out regardless to some extent of their that, for the role I wanted to ask us, Tina up a project comes before the boar

And so a conversation might be the team you put it in the data you're looking at is insufficiently diverse. We worry that you're not capture bring the reality of the of the current world were operating it he's out. It is an example of a competition. Might you might have the border? Well, I think the best way to look at what the board is doing to try to address those issues of bias. I mean so. For example, we ve got a team of researchers that work on trusted technology and in one of the early things that they have done, is to deploy school cats that will help detect by us. That will help make. I am more explainable that will help make it trustworthy in general, but those tools initially very focused on by us and they deployed them to open source, so they could be built on an improved rate and right now the board is focused more broadly, not looking at it

an individual problem in an individual use case with respect to biased, but instilling those ethical principles across the business through something were calling. Ethics by design bias was the first focus area of this ethics by design, and we ve got a team of folks being led by the ethics Board who are working on the question you asked Malcolm about. How do we ensure that the air I wear deploying internally or the tools and the products that were deployed for customers take that into account throughout the life cycle of a I? So through this ethics by design, the guidance that's coming out from the board starts at that conceptual phase and then applies across the lifecycle of through in the case, any internal use of ay I up through the actual use and in the case of ay, I that were deploying for customers are putting into a product you not through that point of deployment. So it's

very much about embedding those considerations into our existing processes across the company to make sure that their thought of not just once and not just in the use cases that the board has an opportunity to review, but in our practices as a company and in our thinking as a company? Much like you know we did this in companies did this I years ago, with respect to privacy and security, that concept of privacy and security by design which some may be familiar with, that stem from the GDP are in Europe. Now we're doing the same thing with ethics, Cohen Usual, is why you guys you're doing many fight. If I lined up all the tech companies that are heavily day, I right now what I find similar programmes and all of them or are you goes off by yourselves, so I think we take up a little bit.

unique perspective. In fact, we were recently recognised as a leader in the ethical deployment of technology and a responsible technology used by the World Economic Forum, so World economic forum in them are cool a centre of ethics at at Santa Clara. Firstly didn't independent case study of IBM that did recognise our leadership in this space because of the holistic approach that we take were a little bit different. I think in some other tech companies that do have similar councils in place because is of the broad and cross disciplinary nature of ours, we're not just researchers we're not just technologists. We literally have representation from backgrounds spanning across the company weather, be no legal or developers or researchers, or you know, just die hr professionals and the like. So that makes us a little bit unique the programme itself at and then I think we hear from clients at our thinking for themselves. A bow

How do I make sure that the technology I'm deploying or using externally or with my clients is, is trustworthy right, so so they're asking us? How did you go about ass? How do you think about it as a company? What are your practices so on that point, a wii ceo- is of the co chair of a summit called the global action alliance initiate. By the wealth and as part of that, we ve committed to serve open source our approach, so we ve been talking a lot about our approach. I think it is a little bit unique as a sad, but we

are sharing it because again we don't want to be the only ones that have trustworthy. I and that have this holistic cross disciplinary approach, because we think it's the right approach. It certainly the right approach for our companies and we want to share it with the world. That's not secret or proprietary. But if you talk to the analysts community that serves the attack the Tec near the tax actor, they say wide IBM is is as ahead in terms of things that were actually doing as opposed to talking about it all while making sure that it is enforceable and impact full. So, for instance, you know we were talking about, we review use cases and we can require that the teams adjust them. That's unique,

right most of the other tat companies do not have that level of oversight in terms, ensuring that their their outcomes are, are aligned with a lot of good talk. But I think you know the wealth use case came out on that. Ngos are twenty seven September really supports that that we're ahead. then, if you look at companies just in general that have a high ethics board, my experiences that with all the companies and I knew interact with no hundreds of of It is in companies a year, less than five percent of them have a board in place and even fewer of those kind of really have a rhythm going and know how they're gonna gonna operators aboard. Yet I wonder, Tugela, but about the role of government here, he's government leading following here. I would say there

Drawing up, I think I order following is probably the most important rate because look, I think, over the last couple of years, as we talked about- or maybe it's been almost ten years at this point in time, as these issues have come to light. Companies have largely been left to themselves to impose guard rouse upon their practices and Mary. Yesterday, I that's not be to say that there aren't laws that regulate. For example, discrimination laws do would apply to technology, that's discriminatory, but the unique aspects to these temporary unique aspects are issues that can amplified through the application of a I systems. The government is really just catching up, so we ve got the the EU proposed a cop, hence a regulatory framework for I in the spring time frame. Am we see in the? U s the f tc

is starting to focus on algorithmic bias and just in general and on algorithms, and that they be fair in the lake. So there are numerous other initiatives following the EU that are looking at framework, for governing ally and regulating a I and we ve been involved, I mentioned earlier on our precision regulation recommendation. So we have something called the IBM policy lab and with different she aids are advocacy through. The policy lab is that we try to make concrete, actionable policy recommendations, so not just again articulating principles but really concrete recommendations for companies and for governments and policy makers around the globe to implement into follow things like you know, out of our precision regulation of ay, I that's where our

commendation. Is that regulation should be risk based? It should be context specific. It should look at and allocate responsibility on. The part that's closest to the risk, and that may be dear friend at different times in the life cycle of any I system. So we deploy some general purpose technologies and then are clear. Its train those over time. So You know bearing the risk it should set with the party, that's closest to the risk. At the different points in time in the air, I lifecycle- you know one of the interesting things about this issue today and twenty one we are now in a situation where someone like IBM I'm guessing is. It would be a sensitive to public reaction to the uses of Asia, as they would be the government reaction to the uses of her. I want to use of way those You know that this is his. Can fasting development in our age that all of us,

it almost seems like whatever form public reaction takes, can be a more powerful lever of often in moving changing corporate behavior, then, but governments are saying- and do you think this is true and say I space, I think the guy from a regulation that we are seeing is responding to public sentiment. So I agree with you, a hundred percent that that this is being moved by the Publican and you know oftentimes, when we have conversations Ethics board. Ok, old, Christine Anne and the lawyers say okay, this is not a legal issue than the next conversation is. What happens if this story shows up on the front page of the New York Times of the Wall Street Journal? So so absolutely we consider that So I would also, I would add tat we ve been were pricing to all this technology company where,

Moreover, a hundred years old and our clients have look to us for that hundred plus years to responsibly us, new technology is right into manage their data. Truth there most sensitive data and entrusted way. So for us, it's it's not just about that. The headline risk it's about ensuring that we have a business going forward because our clients for a start and society trust us, so the guard rails we put in place particularly around their trust and transparency principles or the guard rules we put in place around responsible data using the Corbett pandemic. There was nothing that, from a legal perspective, said we couldn't do more. There was nothing that sad

in the U S, we can't use facial recognition technology in our sights, but we made principle decisions and we made those decisions, because we think that the right decisions to me- and when I look back at the Ethics Board and the analysis and the use cases that have come forward over the course of the last two years. I can think of very few where we said we're not gonna do this, because we are afraid of rigour Tori repercussions? In fact, I can't think of any where it, because it would have come to the board if it was illegal, but yet we did refine in some cases stock. I actual transactions right and an solutions because we felt they were not the right thing to do. a question for either of you. Can you can t give them more into this into

real world applications of this? What are some of the very kind of concrete kinds of things that come out of this focus on on trust, set so You know I saw some real world examples of of how trust plays into what we're doing is, gets back to a couple. Things Christina said earlier around our open sourcing, a lot of what we do, so our research division builds a lot of the technology that one I've been our products and then particularly related to this topic of ethics and trustworthy, I heard the fault is to open source the base of the technology, so we have a whole bunch of open source tool, kids that anyone can use, in fact of our competitors, use them as much

as we do and their products, and then we build value ads on top of those, and so that is something that we have a cage strongly for in the ethics Board to help support us with that. As do you know our product teams, because the value who is as high as one of those spaces where, when something goes wrong, it affects everyone right. So if if there is a big it you were they I everyone's gonna be concerned about all I, and so we want to make sure or that the technology behind a I is as fair as possible. His as explainable as possible is as robust as possible and as privacy preserving as possible, so tool site address. Those are all publicly available and we build value added capabilities. On top of that, when we sat when we bring those things to our customers

in the form of an integrated platform that helps manage the whole life cycle of an eye because a I is different than software that the technology under a eyes machine learning what that means is that the machine, He learned time and adjusting the model over time. Once you write a piece of software, it's done, it doesn't change, and so you need to. they go out. How you continuously monitor your eye over time for those things I just described and integrate them into your security and privacy by design practices so that their continuously updating and aligned to your companies principles as well as societal principles, as well as any relevant regulations. When this passion give me one suggestion, prediction about about,

what a looks like five years her ten years from now, we so so. That is a really really good question, and you know when we want, we look. what a guy does today I, while its very insightful- and it helps us realize things at humans? We may not have picked up on our own and so to augment our intelligence at surfaces, insights and maybe reduces the complexity from almost infinite incomprehensible to humans. To I have five choices now that I can make based on the opposite, may- I there's there's a high- is unable, for the most part today to provide context or reason it right. So I provides an answer, but there's no reasoning, as we think about it: humans associated with it. There's a new technology, that's coming up. That's all there's a bunch of them that are under something called Neuro, symbolic reasoning and what neurosis

Pollack reasoning means its using mathematical equations, so hey I algorithms, to reason. Similarly to human does so, for instance, you know that internet contains all sorts of things good and bad, and and let's let's look at something it's right relevant to to me at least being of jewish background right. You want you want algorithms to know about the nazi regime, but you don't want algorithms. spewing rhetoric about the nazi regime. Today, when we build an, I it's almost impossible for us to get the algorithm to differentiate those two things with a tool like reasoning around it, you could exclude prevent an algorithm from saying from learning rhetoric that is you know not conducive to two norms is just

an example. So those are the kinds of things you'll see over the next three to five years. I think we'll see lot more explain: ability and transparency around a I oh, for example, whether it may be Seeing this add because you you know, went on searched fur x y insane. seeing a shoe add because you visited the site, you know to extend its it's bad or, though be more transparency or dealing with a chap ought unit. Just when a I is being applied to you. I think you ll see a lot more transparency and disclosure around that and then the sort of answer, Wes practical, more aspiration answer, I think, is You know we know ay, I is changing jobs, its eliminating some, its creating new jobs and, I think, hopefully, Ray

with principles around a I e that it be used to augment to help humans that it be human centred that it put people first at the heart of the technology that it will make people better and smarter at what they do and they'll be more interesting work rate, some hoping that that will ultimately be something that will out of a as there's more awareness around where it, used in your life already day today, more transparency around that more explain ability around that and then ultimately, more trust and wool. What for I think of covers a base of this has been really really fascinating. Thank you for joining me for this, and I expect that we will be having but is a company inside it, be a man as a society. Many many many many more conversations about I in the coming years, some

beyond the early end of that process. Is we're not done with this? What are we not by a long shot? Beginning guests just beginning? Thank you again. You're thanks. Rather thank you Thank you again to Christina Montgomery and set Dublin for the discussion about trust and transparency around a high and for their insights about what may be possible in the future. It will be fascinating to see how IBM can help foster positive change in the industry smart talks with IBM is produced by Emily Rostock with com make Liore and Catherine Gerardo edited by Karin Scheele, clergy, mixed and mastered. By Jason. Gambro music programmes come special thanks to Molly Social Inequality, Kelly Meal about Jacob Bird, had it Alexander and me

he tailor the teams at a bar and IBM Smart Talks and IBM is a production of pushing industries and I are ready. Oh, this is a paid advertisement from IBM. You can find more episodes at IBM, Dotcom, slash, smart talks, you'll find more Pushkin podcast on your heart, video up apple pie, gas or wherever you liked to listen. I'm not gonna see you next.