There was a time when Popsicle and Good Humor couldn't stop suing one another about frozen treats on sticks. Many legal battles were fought over milk fat, the shapes of the desserts and the definition of the word "sherbet."
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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you missed in history from such works. Well trained movement. Then I'm heartily for though I refer to the middle summer in the middle of a week, plus five member cares about ninety degrees, which I know that is not terribly hot everywhere. Please do not. You may laugh with what you're one upmanship emailing us invalidated. About how you are also hot is fine. Yet, thanks to various aspects of my apart, Ninety degrees outside is really unbearably hot and fired also daughter, run of researching very dour episodes lately. So I wish it were. Colder has combined
I wish these episodes went so devastating to form today's subject, which is about the time that popsicle and good humour, did not stop suing one another about who got to make which frozen, treats on sticks. I love hot weather so not wish, it was called our universe, doubtless immature his about First going to start with the charming origin stories of the two treats in question, both of which have a hefty dose. wholesomeness, am americana foe. First we're going to talk about popsicle, so keep in mind frozen Trieste themselves, have around a lot longer than this, and you can listen to our twenty thirteen episode on the history of ice cream. If you want those details to Add to that. A lot of origin stories of famous iconic foods have become really romanticize than half pint of an apocryphal element to them, and that is the case with this one too, because the deed,
Those very alot, depending on he, was telling the story, but the basics are in nineteen o five frank. Then mixed soda powder and water and left the outside his Oakland California, home with the wooden stir still at it overnight when, found it in the morning. It was frozen, so that is a lot of serendipity happening all at once, because it very very rarely gets below freezing in Oakland California,. Anne Frank, eight, this frozen soda water on a stick and behold it was delicious and he needed the epsco. You know like percent plus icicle. He was at this point eleven. Like an eleven year old might be expected to do he may more of these any started. Selling them to his neighbours has really wasn't much More than a lemonade stand ask hobby until Emerson was a grown man who was making a living and real estate and nineteen twenty two he made some others frozen, treats for a fireman's ball
and, at some point, are reportedly army advice with children. Everson also change the name for ethical to popsicle. This time it combined icicle with what his children were. Calling him with was pop In nineteen twenty three percent teamed up with employees of low movie company and launched popsicle company this company, started selling popsicles at Neptune Beach, which was a water for amusement park near where Emerson lived in California and see he was licensing popsicles to be sold at other amusement parks as well. On June, eleventh. Ninety Before he applied for a patent for his invention, which was granted on August nineteen of that year, the patent is for a quote: Frozen can canary his invention, according to the patent improved on other frozen confectionery, in that you could eat it without using a utensil and without, terminating it with your hands plus
easy to make without a lot of complicated or hard. The sanitize equipment to make popsicle according to the patent quote. Small containers, which may be ordinary test tubes, are charged with the liquid Syria, from which the convention is frozen and the handle sticks are inserted therein too, and pressed down into contact with the bottoms of the containers to overcome the buoyant effect of the liquid. The syrup has been subjected to intense refrigeration so that it is rose and solid within a few minutes. The test, tube convection and stick are thus frozen together into a rigid mass from which the test tube container Israel, by drawing outward on the handle. After slightly loosening the container from the infection The patent also advises using a fabulous tasteless poorest would for the stick so that the syrup freezes into it and the stick? Doesn't it
why great out when you pull it, which I know happens to me, sometimes when using classic popsicle mail, so only a couple of months after this patent was granted, Everson was low and money and he sold all of his patent rights to Popsicle Corporation, which carried on expand, the pop business without him. At about the same time, a business called citrus product company was also selling frozen, flavoured water pops. They call them frozen suckers, which were marketed as an alternative to soft drinks. This maize, counter intuitive. You know how, if you suck on an ice pop, you can suck all the flavoured syrup out of it and just be left with ice that probably the worst thing about popsicle of but in the nineteen twenty is, this was actually a selling points. Pops were sold as drinks that had been solid form. I was told missing this nuance until I read the actual like judges. Ruling in
of these lawsuits, and then I was like wait. Wait a minute. You're supposed to suck fill out in your left with just a stick of ice, because I have always deliberately not even them that way, because that bothered me is a child to have this chunk of flavourless ice left over so and nineteen twenty five Joe low of the economist, Joe Low Corporation or Joe Loco, wanted to duplicate the success of citrus products. Solid beverages, Joe Loco, was a major supplier to bakers and confectioners than it did a lot of business selling ingredients to the ice cream industry. So Jello thought he could combined his existing business that work with the patent that he knew that Popsicle Corporation had and sell lots of frozen pops, so Jello width, popsicle corporation and eventually became it sailed agent, and that is the business arrangement that was in place when popsicle, eventually faced off again
good humour buyers. So now, for that story, good humour bars where the invention of Harry Bert of Youngsters, Ohio, Bert, started off, making candy and one of his first creed, She was the jolly boy sucker, which was basically allowing pop in nineteen. Twelve he figured out how to make a chocolate coding that would stick to ice cream and solidify bless you Harry Bert, He gave his daughter routes of ice cream coated with this shell and she liked it She thought it was too messy. Bertha Harry Junior suggests that using the sticks from the thought, the jolly boy fuckers to make an ice cream bar code of the chocolate on a stick. This became the good humour bar and soon Bert, was selling these bars from trucks and carts that were equipped with readers and bells were driven by man and clean white uniforms who took their hats at Ladys and saluted gentlemen. These good humour man became a summer. People in the United States from the nineteenth twenties until the nineteen seventies.
We were also made uniform, molds and recipe standards so that he could work with different manufacturers to churn out there while ensuring that people would get a consistent product, no matter where they purchased it from this, is how a lot as this is work today, but this was a relatively new idea at this point also applied for his own patents. It was called a process of making frozen, confections, he applied for on January thirtieth, nineteen, twenty two it was granted to him. October: nine nineteen twenty three reportedly after he took a bunch of good humour bars to the patent office, but I couldn't find substantiation for that birds. Patent describes making a confection that has a quote frozen body portion or heart quote, which starts off softer fluid, but it has been hardened by refrigeration.
Here's how it describes this process quote. To this end, a handled member which may or may not be of an edible substance, is suitably attached to the frozen body portion and utilised in the subsequent operations incidents. The manufacture of the convention, as well as by the ultimate consumer. When eating we confection. I e? I put a stick in it, both of these patterns are in their own way charming, but I find the popsicle one just has to be written in a more. Four way, then the good humour one I think most patents are often come off that way, because the they're trying to cover their bases and make sure everything is accounted It's about the language. It gets very stilted and, quite, as you said, charming the process for making a good humour bar different level from the popsicle. So the popsicle starts with liquid in a test tube a stick stuck in.
and the whole thing frozen and then its pulled out essentially against a vacuum after some jostling the process of making a good humour of our starts up surely frozen ice cream in a container which the stick goes into theirs. Dealey a hole in the bottom of the container, which may be covered temporarily, which allows the air come in when you remove the bar making that step easier and then its frozen, as to the way removed from the container and coated with edible coding that solidifies. So there are definitely some similarities in these two patents. Both the good humour and popsicle patents tell the virtues of not having to touch the product with your unsanitary gross hands. They also both have a combination of sticks and vessels and frozen deliciousness. There are differences, though, as well pots,
at this point were mostly fruit, flavoured waters and sir, while good humour bars were obviously ice. Cream popsicles were thought of as valid beverages and good humour buyers were desserts and popsicles. We're safe basically like a cylinder while good humour virus were more like a rectangle, so the typical consumer could immediately figure out the difference between a popsicle and a good humour virus without really having to think about which was which, We have given a person holding one of each going. I can't However, these two companies, as of legal bones, to pick and we're gonna talk about those after we have a brief sponsor break this episode of stuffy miss than history glasses, brought to you by love Book
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There was a lot of ice cream innovation going on around the turn of the twentieth century ice cream, cones they at the very end of eighteen, hundreds and waffle. Cones came on the scene just after that Eskimo Pies about nineteen twenty two and there were lots of different companies. Tinkering with various other frozen concoctions, however, when it came to frozen, treats on sticks, Harry Bert, really thought his patent covered. All of them. It described a process of making a frozen, treat honest stick. Not a product.
from that process. So, regardless of exactly what that end, product looked and tasted like he considered the act of making it his own invention, bird, soon filed suit against citrus products of rose and Sucker fame, who we talked about before the break. Originally, these two businesses were actually I'm pretty good terms. Citrus products did not think that their frozen suckers were patentable, didn't really consider it to be unique enough to require or lead to a patent, but since Harry Bird did have a patent thought it had better cover all of its basis by working out a licensing agreement. However, the two companies couldn't agree on terms after repeated attempts and on August twenty fourth, nineteen, twenty five Bert filed suit against citrus products, claiming patent infringement and unfair competition and trade.
Sitters products intended to take this suit to trial, hoping that the court would set some limits on what birds patents did or did not cover Bert himself claimed that it was quote so broad that it is impossible to make the suckers without infringing the same, but in ninety twenty six at birth request. The suit was dismissed. Meanwhile, Popsicle preparation was waiting. Its own legal battles against other companies that were made making frozen pops on sticks. First came called Kate Company in New Jersey and Envy ice cream company in Texas in nineteen twenty four. All of these companies had nonstandard spelling pulled cake company with spelled with cave. Instead of thieves, recording cake and envy ice cream. Company ice was spilled. I s, he and cream is spelled K. Aren't you
I am a court upheld particles patent on November, twenty eighth of that year and the following year, spiled suit against the more companies, including several Philadelphia, businesses and Horn ice cream company of and then Robert Bayer of New York, neither of which is spelled weirdly at all, but it turned out that or an ice cream and envy ice cream were affiliated with citrus products. Citrus I said it was actually envy ice cream that develop the frozen sucker in the first place. So at this point, both Harry Bert, an popsicle corporation in one way or another sued citrus products, while Bert, eventually Sue, dismissed, popsicle and citrus settled out of court. Then in February of nineteen twenty five, the two major players and our story finally face off in court against each other when Bert filed suit against Popsicle Corporation and the? U S, district court of Southern Europe that act over the two companies reached a legal agreement together,
In this agreements they agree. to sewage has her any more popsicle company got the rights to make cylinder frozen. Things on sticks out of syrups water ice, ensure bits and burnt out to make rectangular frozen things on sticks out of ice cream and frozen custards. This cut citrus products out of the frozen popcorn. so in nineteen, twenty seven it worked out at the altar joins Loco in acting as popsicles able. So we wound, up with in the sera, be fruity frozen, cylinder camp, Joe Loco citrus products and possible company working together and the Rectangle ice cream bar unstick camp good humour. These businesses the next several years, making their specified varieties of frozen, treats. That is until popsicle, wanted to make its products creamy error Imagine that may cause a problem, and we are going to talk about that after we have a brief word from a sponsor this episode of stuff. You miss
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Bang related to the good humour business, except for the popsicle licensing to meddle in food products, company which changed its name to good humour, corporation corridor actually later remarried and became corridor. Roller and good humour was later sold to emulate behind, but then came another big change, and that was the great depression. because they were made of frozen waters and syrups popsicles are really pretty cheap to make good the bars, on the other hand, started with ice cream, which was just more expensive, so good, humour, bar sold for ten cents of peace and popsicles could go for half as much when financial times got tat. People who couldn't afford ten cents for good humour bar might be able to pay half as much for a popsicle. According to its end, campaigns, more than two hundred million popsicles were sold in nineteen thirty, one alone. Eventually there's some popsicles licensing. You wanted to be able to sell some kind of cheap competitor to good humour bars. Very prices were falling.
if the idea more feasible feasible than it had been when good humour, Visor first developed, so of nineteen thirty one popsicle Joe Loco in fisheries products. All got together and approached good humour with the proposed revision to their nineteen twenty five agreement. This trio of companies wanted to manufacture products. More resembled ice cream, but contain less than four point. Five percent butterfat alcinous milk fat humor would retain the rights to making products that contain more milk fat than that the pops All Joe Loco Citrus Alliance thought I have a strong case here. Since the nineteen twenty five agreement specified, the popsicle could make sure based products. today. Sherbert sir made with about one to three percent milk fat and frozen dessert. Manufacturers generally agree that sherbet do include milk fat, but in nineteen thirty there wasn't a legal definition or even a working industry definition for what sherbet actually were in a lot of people.
The term synonymously with Sore Bay, which is a frozen fruity dessert, which generally includes no more than a trace of theory. So the popsicle argument was: we can make these dairy based bars based on our regional licensing agreement, because that says we can make frozen, treats out of service They're good humorous cargo counter argument was: that's not what sherbet mean and we are the only ones who can make theory based ice cream bars on sticks. Of course, good humour was also protecting its own interests. Here it was other launching its own. Less milk fatty version of the good Humour bar called the Cheerio bar, which would cost five cents and be more like a frozen ice milk bar than a frozen ice cream bar. The results of this attempt at agreement was that popsicle just went ahead and gave it licensees permission to start making a so called milk popsicle. Regardless of how the good humour company felt about it, the milk
Michael had four point. Four eight percent butterfly butterfat, so it was barely under the line that it had presented to good humour as the upper threshold for products that was interested in making the milk popsicle also d aid from the cylindrical shape it had been outlined in those first popsicle patents. Instead, the milk popsicle was shaped like a keystone. Unsurprisingly, good humour took popsicle the court claiming infringement on two fronts: first for making a popsicle with milk in it and then for making a rectangular popsicle. When it came to presenting their evidence in court, the heart of the two companies arguments was exactly how you define sherbet. They pulled in definitions from dictionaries. They talk to. I screamed industry experts and also thirty two different state violators on how you d find ice cream, indifference states, but in the end
None of that really mattered and Judge John Jay Neil debase his ruling on something else entirely with the two companies believed when they had signed their agreement. In the first place, he pointed out that popsicle had been making its products with water based mixtures. Not milk, based mixtures for, two years with no problems. He didn't get into the issue of the shape of the bar. At all Judge Niels issued an injunction against the milk popsicle on May. Twenty, seventh of nineteen thirty two he read his court ruling, has told, is based We are too serious. You then define for sixty years and now you are deliberately doing this being that Obviously, now what you been do go to your room. Might We saw this problem was six years. The book of the dead did not resolve the differences between good
we're in popsicle and both of them appealed each for different reasons. Good humour wanted the court also to find that the milk popsicle was erect angular shape, and that was a problem. Popsicle wanted the court the find that their definition of sherbet was legitimate. I love this. Everything is. I know that when you're talking about this are like the scale of big business, This is a very real and serious battle, but just the idea of someone putting so much money and effort and research The arguing over what sherbet is. Let us end and makes me giggle the fact that they guide eggs testimony from awaited us about what disturb it is the sound like the most pedantic food conversation ever in a court of law without actually would love to read through the whole thing at some point, but the Third Circuit Court of appeals affair
Neild ruling still declining to weigh upon what sherbet is or how the milk popsicle with shaped. However, before We had a chance to actually render this opinion good humour. physical signed a new agreement on April seventh of nineteen thirty three, the two companies agreed to basically do what they ve been doing for six years. Making popsicles item mostly water or syrup and making good humour bar. out of dairy lived. Fortunately, I guess, depending on his side neuron, but not a total loss or popsicle Joe Low, suggested that popsicle use this Keystone shaped Malta, create popsicle with to stick Senate which could be split and shared. That would let customers get more of their grow out of their great depression dollars by basically giving them to popsicles for everyone. the side move that to stick version, went off the market in the mid nineteen eighties and it was replaced with a one stake version of roughly the same size as whole,
obviously reported in the New York Times quote small children. It seemed couldn't like fast enough in alternating sequences to keep one or the other stick from dripping was met. The children were getting too popsicles, rather than sharing them with a friend or sibling, or they were just eating them without breaking them apart. First there's a similarly exasperated sound. quote, and in the New York Times article that talks to one of the popsicle executives and is like hey. Doesn't this meaning? We are in favour of sharing Similarly, are you kidding me kind of tone and talks about how, like the weight of the to stick? Popsicle was this much, but each of the single stick popsicles its replacing it is this much though it's basically the same thing just already broken in half for you so
in our last extremely Philly, twist in baby homes, old, good humour to Thomas J Lipton Company, a division of Unilever in nineteen sixty one. Then Unilever bought the popsicle, and in nineteen, eighty nine six years after the death of its inventor Frank, represent. So now these two former adversaries who went to court repeatedly to decide who got to make what out of frozen stuff on sticks, are now both part of the same business but popsicle than deliciousness. There are seven or eight really. The bats are will be here today and I could go have a popsicle after this well on that The thing that I learned to our researching this: if we're talking about king pops, witches Lancer artisans, delicious pop creator, popsicle is still a trademark. So that is why, when you go to their website, everything is described as pots and not as popsicles.
I didn't know this parallel. Unilever sometimes will aggressively defend its popsicle trademark. Why it s funny, because I think a lot of people, it's kind of like that, kleenex thing where people call all tissues Kleenex, where most people call all frozen, treats the dynamics. Dairies specifically on stakes popsicles, but that is a trademark name do you also have a little bit of listener meal for us to enjoy my dear it's lightly, more serious than this attitude has been today about, like this was like the summer break frozen, treat, let's have class outside episode. Will this is from Sumner and Thunder, says high tracing holly. I've been listening to the pod cast for several years now, but haven't had a reason to write, and until now I just finished listening to the upcoming polish episode. When you brought up the tunnel,
Paris, which did not mention the apple may palaces connected the slavery that remind me of what a friend's hold me about a recent trip to Portugal. This friend went there with a free, a few brazilian friends, while worrying cathedrals and palaces and Portugal. He noticed a friction developed between the Brazilians and the portuguese tor. And the official tour narrative. The buildings were symbols of the pride of the portuguese empire for the resilience they were symbols of colonial oppression. The brute Brazilians would frequently asked the toward I've how the building they were touring was funded and where the building materials came from and many cases, none of the tour guides knew the exact details, but it made my friend really changed: Perspective on the beautiful art he was seeing, especially when looking at the masterpieces of european architecture and aren't, we seem to gloss over their connections to colonialism and slavery, but masterpieces of the sixteenth and seventeenth century architecture and art exist,
Many of their commissioners nobles Royals merchants were not profiting from colonial trade. Would the abundance of gold and silver and Latin American and I'd be Leonhard from the so called age of discovery exist without the conquest of the Americas and the influx of precious metals from Mexico. In Peru, I think, you're, both quite right in saying that the Avonlea Palace should be mentioned in the context of the transatlantic slave trade. I also think that we should take it upon ourselves to rethink our an architect, We did not immediately associate with colonialism and the slave trade. I want to thank you both for giving me something engaging in educational to learn when I'm commuting. She went round school thank you so much Sumner. That is totally valid point, and it is a point that there have been some really interesting books that have come out lately. There have kind of phrased the on going legacy of slavery and institutions that people haven't necessarily associated
with slavery. There is one that came out a couple years ago that was called ebony and ivy, which was about Ivy League colleges, which are almost exclusively in like New England and other northern the United States and how they will allow. Then were initially belt mostly on slave labour, which is not really discuss, did not really thought about. contacts of Ivy League schools very often, which
No, there are people who wish we would shut up about slavery bed, I think, until until it becomes second nature to think about the legacies that they created these great buildings, a great works of art and things that have lasted for hundreds of years that were really built on exploiting the other other people. I think that will be something that we will continue to talk about occupy cast on a regular basis, to thank you again Sumner for writing to us about that. If you would like to write to us about this or any other subject, history like at what has happened, rough on Facebook and pay spectacular fashion of history and on than history are tumblr business than history, that tumblr com and rational and thriftily Hendricks conflict in history, a stretcher store. Is it MR history? That's Redford back. We have new stuff in there, if you go indoors, register
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