These are episodes that we’d love to do as a full-length episode, and we’ve gotten listener quests for most of them. But there’s a book that’s so central to the subject that the book is really the place to go.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
This episode is brought to you by audible. You can listen to the bold new take on the autobiography of Malcolm X, performed by Emmy Antonia Award, winning an Oscar nominated actor Lawrence fish burn available for the first time, full audio, the autobiography the essential listening for every American and anybody who wants to understand Amerika IT story and all of its people. Listen. to the autobiography of Malcolm X, performed by Lorens fish burn only from audible go to audible. Calm, Slash Malcolm X, that's audible, dot, com, Slash Malcolm X, arrive in his pandemic, ruinous recession, protest riots, racial strife, police brutality and yes, Donald Trump, America and twenty twenty feels like apocalypse. Now again, I'm John Harmon and Helen high water I'll explore this moment through a series of raw and real conversations with the people who shape our culture Helen. I waters upon gas from the recount, listen to Helen high water on the eye
radio up apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast welcome too, a few minutes to history class, a production of Iheart radio hello and look under the podcast, I'm Tracy. Well then, I'm Holly frying, it's for its excellent. Palpable have referred our new to the shell, every for a while. We do an episode or we cover six topics that for one reason or another, we can't really do falling episode. I this is to happen about every six months, but I just didn't have six things,
convenient old. Sometimes this is because there is not enough information for a whole episode for a particular topic or maybe because taken together all the topics as a group cannot tell a story. We ve done a few of these, in which the subjects are just so similar to other episodes that we ve already done, that it almost feels like historical days, obvious, there's lots of different reasons that we go with this format. Sometimes we are calling today's episode six impossible. said, there's a book about that, because either episodes that we would love to do as a fully episode and in some cases we ve gotten listener requests and sometimes a lot of listener requests, but there's a book like one book that is so central to the subjects that the book is really the place to go for them. Mason, rather than our podcast yeah Tracy, and I have talked about these before and its leg at that when we just doing
both reports, yeah so we're gonna kick off with William Dorsey Swan and before We get to the topic that inspired today's episode. We also wanted to quickly recap how we research and write the show. Typically, we record to episodes a week with give us researching in writing one of them our research processes are similar, but not identical. We have each fig out what works best for us over the years and is a little different for Tracy versus me, but we're of which of us is researching or what topic we're doing? We are drawing an information from multiple sources and worse the that into an outline that we have written ourselves. So even if there's one source, that's doing some heavy lifting in that process. There are also lots of other ones that were using to fill gaps and confirm details and provide multiple perspectives on the subject.
But for the topic that we're talking about today. As I mentioned earlier, there's just really one book that would provide almost all of the in depth research. The basics might be out there in the world through multiple sources, but not the deeper detail. So either the author did all the research to write the first ever book on a subject or be. They translated a work into English for the first time or, like did some analysis, that's just become an irreplaceable part of our under ending of the topic number one. Those authors and historians really deserve the focus and the credit for having done a of that work, because if you are the one person researching a book, you're doing so much footwork. If it is not previously established, research and
or two. If we tried to do summarize that one work into an episode. Well, as we just said, that's that's a book roared or that's the best case scenario. The worst case scenario is that kind of verges on plagiarism. In some cases trying It is still a unique original work down to a thirty or forty minute episode feels a little bit incongruous with what our processes and kind of are our mission for the show get. Sometimes when we say that the folks they say will just have the author on we do have authors and historians on the show to talk about their books, but most of the time, those books, her newly released and so they're coming out to the show, as part of their publicity work for the book usual We have either met the author before or we ve gotten some kind of publicity email from the publisher, or maybe we have a contact with the publisher that we can ask. I'm not saying it's impossible to get.
Author, on the show, without any of that, but I have for sure gone down some real and very unsuccessful rabbit holes trying to track folks down. This is not a solicitation for advice on how to do it here. Fear about to say why don't you just tweeted them? Well, that's the thing that we try before present necessarily worked out clear. I I promise we do know how to reach out to people. Sometimes it is not fruitful ram, and this brings us to the topic that inspired today, episode, which is actually a forthcoming book, but it's one that we have guns. So many requests for over the last few months, thanks ism. those that have gone viral and, as I mentioned earlier, it is William Dorsey Swan Self fifteen years,
go Channing. Gerard Joseph was taking a class in investigator reporting at Columbia University and stumbled over the name, William Dorsey Swan in an old Washington Post article when we say old. This article was dated April thirteenth. One. Eighty eight and the headline Red quote: Negro Dive raided thirteen black man, dressed as women, surprised at supper and arrested William Dorsey Swan, who called himself queen of drag and was known as just the queen was among them, Joe. Wrote an article about swan that was published in the nation in January of twenty twenty, which seems, You have been the information source for various viral posts that have circulated since then catching listener tension and leading to a lot of episode, requests and, yes, swine, absolutely seems up our alley. He sounds fascinating
He was in slaves from birth and then went on to be a huge part of the drag seem in Washington DC. After the? U S, civil war, he tried to get a pardon from President Grover Cleveland in the first documented illegal action to protect algae Bt Q rights in the United States. Swan story really touches on so many things, including the history of drag balls, gender race, cross dressing and trams history. But the book does not exist, yet I once it does. We are hoping folks go to read it. We are for shore looking forward to doing that. That forthcoming book, based on Joseph original Research into William Dorsey Swan, is titled house of Swan where slaves became queens and at present it is expected from Crown subsidiary of Penguin Random House publishing the. U S in twenty twenty one and from pick it or that's Macmillan in the UK yeah, I would say it might I dont know if it's optimistic or not,
but it will be out in twenty twenty one. I know the pandemic has totally shifted every eye like the publishing schedules, and I also know that I have had this one particular book on my list, such rights to get in touch with them, author, and it's like a noted in my little list, and it originally said forthcoming in twenty nineteen and then said forthcoming and twenty twenty and now it's worth coming and twenty twenty one. So book deadlines and timelines can shift around. Sometimes just so folks know we ve gotten. So many requested him. Yes, he does sound, completely fascinating and hopefully in the future. A book to read a next up is the one topic that we're talking about today that I dont actually think we have gotten a specific requests from listeners about
MRS Aethiopia in Saint will lotta Petros so ass. We talked about in our episode on the rock hewn churches of wily. Bela. Christianity was established and what's now aethiopia during the time of the oxen Might Empire, Christianity was really widely practised, thereby about the sixth I'm sorry- and this was a lot earlier than Christianity- was established in many other parts of Africa for centuries people living in the Horn of Africa also didn't have that much contact with other christian communities. So the orthodox Christianity that developed there was unique and a lot of ways with beliefs, and practices that could be more similar to Judaism than to what would become the Roman Catholic or eastern orthodox churches, but Sixteen hundred's ethiopian Emperor Lebanon then go asked Portugal for help in fighting off an invasion in aftermath portuguese Jesuits, arrived and started, trying to convert ethiopian Orthodox Christians to Roman Catholicism, and that brings us
Back to a letter, Petros will add a petrol lived. the opium and the early seventeenth century and was married to one of the emperor's councillors. All three of their children died and Infancy am Lotta Petros decided to become a nun. She's sort of felt like she was she was done with the movement the real world after all that after the king was convinced to make Roman Catholicism, the state religion and the ethiopian orthodoxy, The widow church was banned. She started a non violent resistance movement, even ass. The king exiled her and threatened to kill her family. She also found, her own religious community and developed a reputation for being a very skilled preacher. This also touches on so many things that we love. This is the. is known book length, biography of an african woman and it's one of the earliest written document detailing african resistance against european influence. It
Details will let us Petros lifelong partnership with another woman that was another nine named ahead. A crystals It's one of only a few heavy agro fees of ethiopian women saints and it is a huge source of information just about what daily life was like in seventeenth century Ethiopia. So the book about her is the life and Struggles of our mother will add a petros and it was written by a disciple and sixteen seventy two you that was about thirty years after her death, often something that It is something we would just refer to you who have had a lot of concerns because he knows it's, it's a classic backing in the public domain, but this was translated into English for first time ever by windy, Laura Belcher and Michael Kleiner in twenty fifteen belt, her as a professor of comparative early modern, african and european literatures and grew up in Ethiopia and Ghana and cleaner is a translator whose special
This is in, among other things, yes, which is the language that this work was originally written, This translation earned multiple awards, including the twenty fifteen best scholarly edition in translation from the society for early modern women. It is so fairly long. It's more than five hundred pages the full version There is also a concise addition that is just over a hundred sixty pages. Let's take a quick break before we had to wait it if you're really popular one of these. hey I'm Charlie Sanders and on board, and I am Brien Husky. I am also about where the host of the new pod cast bald talk from the big money players network and I hurt radio before them
I was a writer and producer four key appeal and created the show weird sit than I appear on Bob's burgers and feet, but the show is not just about being bald so for you Heroin out there there's a lot to glean from our show it about insecurity, vanity, what other, but Europe, as on every season that, oh, you are the mean congressmen, dude right then, and there that damn back it s actually a gas. We all ok you're the press, dude microclimate Agnes in another met, while she is also against our way way way- and I remember you receive you producer, the brenner- that that's Paul sheer. He was on view too, but we have him on. The progress is what yeah the show is not about having people who are barred from deep to hell of a coincidence. You gotta say that right, so that we'd be very limiting. What is MC? Caully call him. I don't know I'm not on succession, that's the other one. I think that's his brother there, so talented those listened evolved, talk on the radio out Apple pie, gas or wherever you listen upon
Its Laura was her. You may know me best as a divorce attorney and the founder of the online divorce service. It's over easy, I'm Johnny Rains, and this is the it's over easy podcast all spare. For me, the aspect of merit that troubling is that its content That's governed by the state- and I dont want to state to have control over my personal affairs, but anyone in the world who might be able to convince me, otherwise it would be our guest today. Welcome to us, fair Marlowe, Thomas and his excellent fell down here. also- I was talking to somebody the other day. Marilla maize told me that before fill you dated Henry Kissinger and David Gaffin, is this correct Well, I went out to dinner with them what say that ok, I'm buying fair, with Laura Wasser on the eye heart radio up or wherever you get your podcast
Now next back, we another very frequent listener request. I would say this is one of the topics. We have gotten almost the largest number of requests, or over the years the. If I were placing beds, I would say this has the most requests yeah with definitely the top five, if not the most, and this is our something that we alluded to in our listener q and a episode that we did earlier this summer. It is Henrietta lax and we ve gotten so many requests. It about Henrietta lacks over the years, and we have it for two reasons. One is that a big part of her story is that her body and her privacy were violated without her consent and in some ways, are doing an episode on her felt, like a continuation of that invasion that is compounded by our second reason. We would really just be distilling down a book by someone who actually did work with the lax family that is Rebecca salute.
Author of the immortal, life of Henrietta lacks exclude spent. years. Researching henrietta lacks a story in her life and the impact of yourselves on medical science, as well as earning the trust of the wax family. For publishing the book and twenty ten m knowledge glued describes, Henriette his daughter, Deborah as the soul of the book and her thanks to the other, lacks family members and friends because of repair. graphs after that. So here the basics Henrietta lacks was a black woman who was diagnosed with cervical cancer and nineteen fifty one she had five children, the family was poor. They were working as tobacco farmers and Virginia lacks was treated at Johns Hopkins, which was a segregated hospital at the time, but also one of the very few leading hospitals that actually treated black patients lacks died less than a year after being diet.
Stun October? Fourth, nineteen fifty one at the age of just thirty one while lacks, was being treated a doctor named George Gay collected cells from her cervix. He did not tell her. He was doing this. He did not ask her permission This really was an unusual at the time since the ideas of informed consent and patient privacy didn't really exist in the same way that they do today. What was the unusual where the cells themselves at that point, researchers had not been able to keep cells alive. I've outside the human body for very long, but the cells from lax as body kept on living and multiply lying they double almost every twenty four hours. This was the first little cell line ever to be discovered. They were named he'll US cells after the first. Letters of Henrietta lacks is first and last name These cells became a fundamental part of medical and pharmaceutical research.
Polio vaccine was developed using hayleigh cells so, where drugs leukemia Parkinson's, he's an influenza searchers, use, healer cells to isolate the human immunodeficiency virus in the early here's, the space program they were sent into orbit to study the effects of low gravity have also been used to study the effects of radiation and poisons more. Seventy thousand published studies have relied on human cells and ITALY, two Nobel prizes have been awarded to research that use them this It goes on and on and on Johns Hopkins offered these cells to other researchers and institutions freely. It didn't make money from them, but that is not true of the companies that use them to develop. Things like pharmaceuticals, as Deborah lacks clearly spells out in scoots book. He was cells were part of all this research and some companies turned huge profits from there
use, and yet members of the lax family couldn't afford to see a doctor. Henrietta lacks a story is a lot better now than it was when we, this made the decision to direct listeners to Rebecca Scully. but rather than doing episode ourselves in the interim, there was even an HBO movie about it that came up twenty seventeen. Since the publication of the immortal life of Henrietta lacks Johns Hopkins and other hospitals and organisations have also start to take a more critical look at issues involving racism, medical ethics and informed consent, and that is worth it definitely still ongoing. Henrietta lacks. Is descendants have also talked about how they want people to know about her story and about how much her cells have contributed to medical science? So talking about around the show feels like what
less of an invasion of privacy now than it did back when we first made that call in twenty thirteen, but Rebecca salutes groundbreaking, original and deeply influential work continues to be the best source for all of this, and a lot of people who love to listen to pod casts want to listen to There are things an audio format, and this is also available as an audio book. Also this year is the hundredth anniversary of Henrietta lax as birth, and there is a year long. Centennial celebration ongoing you can fly, and more add Hilo one red dot, Org, that is H, L a one hundred one zero, zero dot org ok, moving on furthermore, was born in Oxford Massachusetts in seventeen thirty five, when she was about nineteen. She married Ephrem Ballard Way. They moved to Hallowell Main where Martha Ballard became a midwife on J. preferred one first, seventeen, eighty five when she was fifty Ballard STAR,
keeping a diary of her daily life and work by listening that she kept up for the next twenty seven years. Ending on May twelfth Ten twelve diary- ended up totalling up with ten thou. And entries. We ve talked him other diaries on the show, like the ones kept by an lister and Samuel peeps and how they give us a look not only at the direst but also at the time and place that they were living, and this is true for Ballard Diary to it, details her work as the midwife and a healer. She documented more than eight hundred births. She attended over those twenty seven years. She asked: documents where life was like in the Cannabich River Valley region in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, this diary is a unique and important document, its full. Information about the medicine and midwifery at the time? in an era when many white women could read at least a little but often could not write at all it
include a wealth of information about people who are never mentioned in a lot of other primary sources, including tax and census records that would typically be used, that kind of information. Ballard kept her diary in this collection of little booklets that she made herself and then those booklets were passed down through her family really being given to great great granddaughter Mary Hobart. Hobart was a doctor and she was given these diaries as a gift when she graduated from medical school. Hobart put them together in order may have been sort of disarray, not really chronological anymore, so she put them in order and bound them together in this handmade linen cover and then donated that to the main state library and nineteen. Thirty There are a few ways to get a look at Martha, Bowers diary today. One is the website. Do history dot org, which has a browser able searchable scan of the document, as is the case.
most historical diaries, its tricky to read both because of Ballard handwriting, which is rather cramped, an because your system of abbreviations and marks for keeping up with midwifery work and She also had phonetic spellings forward, so it's not a natural flowing reed for your casual research paper. I often have our orally challenging time, deciphering hand written documents from long in the past or even my own hand, written documents from yesterday, fortunately do history. Dot Org also includes text transcriptions of the scanned pages of handwritten diary. These were done by husband and wife team rob arm cause land and Cynthia Mc Allman, Macaws land they spent about ten years on this project. There is a print version of their transcription. That is almost a thousand pages long. It seems too
out of print now, but it still available in a lot of libraries, particularly university. Libraries, The third is the reason Martha Ballard is in the category of there's a book about it. It's a midwife steal the life of Martha Ballard, based on diary, which was written by Laurel Thatcher all rich their names, familiar it may be because we mentioned her in our episode about the women of Gettysburg, which we titled fearless see and unflagging origins of her then who coined the phrase well behaved women seldom make history. She also the introduction to the Mc Transcription of the diary? id wives tales. She follows selections from the diary with context and analysis. There are these brief notes about where Ballard went, and here she saw on a particular become a narrative about her life, along with just a wealth of context about gender medicine, religion, domestic life and crime
including a mass murder and a trial for rape. This is rich and fascinating and it earned all rich. The Pulitzer Prize in history and nineteen The wine- and it is also an audio book andrea- was made into a PBS american experience. Film called a midwives tail in ninety. Ninety eight, it doesn't seem to be streaming anywhere at the moment, but it is available on dvd. We'll take another quick sponsor break over the past year, or so I have tried several times to figure out how to approach an episode on Trotter of Salerno or the traveller, is may evil compendium on women's medicine in cosmetics, a lot of sources, conflate trotter end the traveller creating this
Russia and that the compendium is the work of only one author who was either named trotter or Travilla. Well, of course, Scobie be saving that no duplicate words in history, but the reality is that the troika is real. a compilation of three texts by three different people, one of them being an italian medical practitioner known as trotter or tractor these three separate work, four copied, revised and shuffled around over centuries until it editor rearranged them into one volume in fifteen, forty four and addition became the dominant version for the next four hundred years, but the main groups really date back to about the twelfth century. I kept running in the trouble with this research, because there's just virtual no biographical information that has survived about trotter and the widespread trotters last traveller confusion.
Just through a ranch answer my research process. Every time I found document that seemed promising that then made it seem like that. were the same thing I was like well now. I dont trust this at all, and also, as I kept pick away at it. I realise that the forces that were the clearest about this distinction between the person and the work were all by the same author, Doktor Monica eight green eyes. unusual for us to use more than one article or book by the same historian as research for an episode of our show, but in this case it would be like the entire source list was deaf by doktor Doktor rain has been working with the trouble over many years, including separating out those three different manuscripts. Those are on the condition of women on the treatments for women. and on women's cosmetics and doktor
determine that on treatments for women was by a real historical woman named trot up in this, sub. Something really cool about the traveller. It's like that the other two works were written by men whose names have been lost. So a woman was ultimately the one credited for this work. Tat so often goes the opposite way. In addition, to publishing numerous papers and articles about this subject. Green has also edited and translated an edition of the tragedy that came out in two thousand one, and that includes an introduction, the latin texts and an english translation and then an appendix that details, all the medicines that are ready, send a text, this is the first english translation of the work that has used medieval texts as the starting point, rather than later versions, In the words of the medieval review quote, this is the definitive truculent, a new edition of which will not be necessary. This book will be
full to historians, of medicine, of women, studies of medieval culture and of southern ITALY, and to graduate and even under graduate students interested in grappling with the actual practice of medieval medicine. I really feel like that's the most glowing red you of any historical source? I have read in seven years of working on this package how, though, if our that talk about different versions seemed a little confusing it's enough of a tangle, but it's actually broken down in dreams. Edition of the traveller with a chart there are So many different version yeah so last thing that we're gonna touch on has a lot going on. There is a gruesome mass murder suicide possible incest, so we have left it for last if that is not folks bag. If any of that sounds like you just not down for it. Now is your time
to say you have learned about five things and go up in Germany in North Carolina on Christmas day, nineteen, twenty nine, a tobacco farmer named Charlie Lawson, killed his wife five and six of their seven children. This haven't child. His oldest son Arthur had left home on an errand and he was the only member of the family to survive sometime after killing the rest of his family. But before Arthur had gotten back Charlie Lawson took his own life in the woods outside their home and by that point, other but had already stopped by the house to wish the family merry Christmas and they had discovered the crime they actually heard. Lawson's final shot in the distance while they were here. The crime scene itself was bizarre, the exception of the youngest children, Lawson had shot and then bludgeoned, each member of the family, the his three, including the baby he bludgeon to death, and then he had arranged their bodies
his wife and children that loss and killed inside the house. He put heads on pillows from their beds. folded, their arms over their chests and closed their eyes. for the two daughters that he killed while they were outside near the tobacco barn. He arranged their bodies but used rocks in place of pillows when Charlie losses body was found. There were two notes in a pocket written on receipts. Neither which contained a complete sentence. After all of this loss his brother Marian turned the home and the kind of a tourist attraction which sounds a little callous, but huge crowds were flocking to the crime scene. Anyway, they were doing like picking the raisins off the cake that the oldest daughter Marie had made that day for their Christmas treat so merry Lawson was basically trying to keep things under some kind of control and also provide an income for Arthur Lawson through that he didn't lose the family farm, the crime also
became a subject of a murder, ballad called murder of the loss in family, so of course, there are questions that are natural. Why did Lawson murder his family? Why? did he so carefully arranged their bodies, I did, he wait until his son Arthur was away from home to carry out this crime. Was it just me, Arthur and the friend he was with that day were big enough to try to stop him or did Charlie have some other reason that he wanted his son to survive, and why had the whole family gone into Winston Salem. A couple of weeks before that to by all new store, bought clothes and have their portrait take in. That would have been a huge and unusual expense for a poor farming family at the start of the great depression. So we Don't really have answers to any of that, but there is a lot of speculation. One is that Charlie Lawson wasn't actually the culprit, but he had witnessed some other crime and that perpetrator had been killed them all in return.
The another theory blames a head injury that Charlie Lawson had experienced some time before, which reportedly caused severe headaches and changes to his behavior, and the last theory was first publicized in the book about this. That is white Christmas, bloody Christmas by Embrace Jones Entreaty J Smith. In nineteen, eighty nine just before the book was going to print Stella Lawson bowls Marian Lawson's daughter contacted the authors and told them that she had heard rumours that seventeen year old, Marie was pregnant at the time of the murders and the baby was her. Fathers fell in terms of this back embryo Jones. Entreaty J Smith were father and daughter, Johns had a lifelong fast nation, with this crime, he was a child living in the area when it happened and he has compiled a wealth of research over his lifetime, the two of them, elaborated on the book which they self published a ninety. Ninety, it is really hard to
and now, although there is a twenty fifth anniversary, hard cover that came out in twenty fifteen Smith, also published a fire go up called the meaning of our tears, which is available as an e book. The meaning of our tears isn't focused only on this crime and its aftermath. It's also focused on the years of hardship and grief that this family had lived through in the years before the murders. That's like half way into the book, when the murders actually happen. This particular instance is also an example of how other podcast, with different styles and resources, can approach material that probably wouldn't work as well. For us These murders are, for example, covered in an episode of the podcast criminal, hosted by Phoebe Judge in the Team goes on the road and interviews people who have some kind of connection to a crime, whether there, the perpetrators, the victims or the invest. gaiters and they
describe it. As quote stories of people who have done wrong been wronged or gotten caught somewhere in the middle, so in this case they actually went to stay, County North Carolina and they talked directly to local residents and two Trudy Smith. They weren't tie he met people who knew Charlie loss than are his victims personally, but the people who have some kind of connection to the story. All of this comes together in criminal episode, number twenty five, which is the portrait. There is also a limited series podcast from W G Hp Fox, eight in high point North Carolina. That tells the story, including archival interviews with relatives and others with more first hand, knowledge that is called deadly secrets, Lawson family murder. In both cases they were
out and did legwork and talk directly to people where we would be just summarizing someone. I guess it's our show is not show where we go out and do fieldwork something like that is just not really accessible. When everything is speculative as awesome as it would be to go out and do field work, it is not something that is conducive to a show that puts out to new episode the week every week because it takes more than his is existing for our episodes of so yeah. That is six things, five of which we ve gotten lots of requests for where of a book is, the number one place to go to learn more about that deal, Lister Male Tracy. I view it is from Katy and Katy, says hello, hello,
Tracy. I am one of those wacky people who listen to the whole archived from the beginning and I'm finally caught up on the latest podcast Mamma said, but I dont have a ton of new episodes waiting for me to jump into. I wanted to thank you for making such a great podcast. I so admire your commitments, a kindness and justice, and how will you research is subject So much from you guys and laughed and gravity the log with you at all the things you ve covered. I have a question and then a podcast recommendation and some possible pandemic reading. The question is: who is the person on the cover art? Is it a historical painting or drawing or done by some one connected Steffy method? History class I've been wondering this for months. I feel so happy when I see this french question mark face pop up on my phone. My podcast recommendation veer extremely long recommendations list is Thomas Downing. I'm gonna go right, Thomas downing on a list which is very long, and so I'm gonna
get ahead to the synopsis of sometimes downing stuff, and then Katy goes on to say this, the throwback. But when you talked about labelling in the history of ethiopian Christianity, I remembered I three rabbit hole. I fell down a while back. The sign in the seal is very interesting if slightly wild book on the arc of the cabinet and the easy opium tradition of travelling to Lake tenant, its by Graham Hancock, who eventually went completely off the rails, but during this time I think he was doing some pretty interesting. If slightly dubious work. To be clear, I don't mean the tradition at self is dubious, I'm in no position to judge another culture but definitely has been incorporated into some wild holy grail types death. I read it several years ago. I can't remember many details beyond it being a fascinating ride if you're looking for some pandemic reading about important traditions conducted by a pretty eccentric and passionate white guy from outside the culture at definitely recommended. Thank you again, Holly and Tracy for all your great work, even when the pot gas topics for difficult, I feel level of comfort. When I listen to you, because
the respect, compassion and intellect you bring, and then we can talk about cheese or something else delightful before you, too long sincerely. Katy s manga this one in part because of the reference to allow Bela an ethiopian Christianity, which came up again on today's episode, have never read our possibly even heard of the book that Katy has mentioned. So I cannot speak to its quality or anything like that. But I found the connection interesting and to answer the Queen then, who is the person on the cover art, its Marie Antoinette as drawn from like it a cameo, jewelry peace that somebody who worked with so many years ago, put together for us so almost occur guess, with French yeah, technically Austria repackage yeah. We were trying to come up with
new logo at that time, and we wanted something that suggested history and suggested some of the things that we talk about machine. Oh, like, for example, including women, but we also wanted one that didn't like we were appropriating something just for the sake of making a pod gas logo and Marie Antoinette seemed to fit that bill plus, as we ve talked about. I think we both enjoy reading flash learning and talking about various things related to Marie Antoinette for Bank, you again Katy for that. He mail, if you like, write to us about this regular pod, Casper History, pod gas, that I hurt radioed com and were all over social media at missed in history. You can also subscribed our show on apple pie. Cast an eye radio, app and anywhere else you like to get podcast stuff. You missed in history class the production of Iheart radio for more powers;
it's for my heart. Radio visit by her radio have added mankind's or wherever you listened, payment.