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happy Saturday. It is Saturday classic time and in just just in case you have not heard of this. Yet this is an episode from our archive that we are sharing again over the weekend and help newer listeners to the show get a taste of our back catalogue. If you have listened to all of the podcast, episodes are ready and new are down for a re, listen. This is for you to so welcome a news, Flash Jesus, delicious so good. I think most people would be surprised by that information and just like everything else on earth, though it has a history all its own. This episode originally aired in February twenty thirteen, but the story of how cheese came to be a staple of the human diet is just as delicious today, as it was four years ago, maybe grab some delicious bread or whatever else sounds yummy. We heard from listeners when this episode First AIR, that it made them quite hungry,

join us for a little bit achieves history will continue stuff. You missed in history, class from housetop looks dot com hi and welcome to the podcast. I am Tracy Wilson and I'm home and today we are going to talk about something we both love. So my shoes, if one of our favorite is thing, is seas. She's having nine thousand year history and at the very is that we have of it today are mostly the products of little tweaks that people have made throughout history for one reason or another, basically, every cheese that we

today has some kind of story to tell about where it came from that's tied to the animals that were being raised. What the weather in climate were, like the people making the cheese, whether it had to be stored or shift, or anything like that. Allowed these refinements come straight from human ingenuity and curiosity, but it's also a very necessity is their of invention, kind of story making This is a balancing act with milk and how much moisture salt and bacteria are in that milk and what people's lives were like when they were trying to make cheese. So I'm excited- and it's kind of interesting from Interpol, logical standpoint, because as people have spread out, cheese went with them gas, so it really has brought its own flavour to be funny. Unfortunately, visits of

various cultures. Lay cheese informs cultures in an interesting way, hands of the cultures and form the tea. I love it. I did not mean for that to be upon, but that's what I'm doing going were being all pony and reciprocal. In the cheese go right, but failures, the legend of where to use came from, and there are a couple of problems with this leginn they gets it gets passed round is in fact, so, according to the lower some one person in some arab country, was travelling a very long way carrying milk in Askin. That was made firm and animals stomach and when he got ready to take a drink of milk, he discovered it had curdled and achieve this may have been how people discovered ran it

which is the an enzyme from animal stomach that is used to make these, but it's probably not where cheese came from for a couple of reasons. One is that before people started eating cheese, milk was pretty much just for babies, because adult humans could not digest collectives. They couldn't make lack taves witches. The enzyme that break that breaks down. Lactose after they were babies, so unless this guy was travelling along way with a baby, you didn't really have a good reason to be carrying his skin of milk with him, or maybe he was going to visit a baby, maybe but made people didn't, often carry milk around in skins because it was a high risk of spoiling right. It really mill. Was consumed fresh and only by babies until after cheese was discovered. Flash invented

a more likely scenario is that people discovered that if you left milk out it would solidifying coagulated and if you were fat it a little bit. You could separate that into Kurds and way, and it's not far to get from that to cheese so that a little more likely than the animal skin carrying story you thinkin about genes, so more likely history, you know, by about seven thousand BC, people living in the fertile crescent had started to domestic animals and they were cultivating plants, so they had even goats, and go to particular, were used. They were accustomed to in relatively confined spaces like caves, so they would have been very easy to domesticated that point. If you look at evidence from that long ago, the goats and sheep that were being kept were probably more about and meet them.

Milk, because there wasn't an overwhelming number of female animals versus male animals. They also look at what ages the animals were at slaughter. Farming for also would have come later because sheep that far in the past, didn't really have usable wool as their hair so? The earliest cheap, probably mostly used as a source of meat, so several things that they have had to happen for people to wine, making sure they had to have a reason to want to pasture animals and use pastured animals as ever food source. They had to have animals that could give them more milk than their own young needed. I, which would have taken some generations of breeding to get animals that produce more milk. I love the sun they had to know how to milk the animal rights that had to have been an interesting

trial and error. Yes, swollen and the animals have to allow themselves to be milked by people, which is another you know animals can be very obstinate, so this is another thing that would have required some and, lastly, they would have needed away to store the milk when, as we talked about before there are some difficulties with using skins, restoring milk. This worked out to be pottery or more specifically, the every that you could apply heat two clay and turn it into pottery, and so once we had all those things together at the same place. At the same time, people were able to develop cheese, and this happened at about sixty five hundred Bc Ii in the western half of what is Turkey today, we can. Shards of pottery from that era, and knew the people were raising animals for milk, because there are milk that residues in the shards

Proportion of male and female animals also changes in the anthropological record at that point, so you could, because you would need more females to be producing milk. Yes, probably this milk started out as a food source for babies, as you mentioned earlier, since humans had not adapted their ability to process lactose, but they would quickly figured out since they didn't have refrigeration that that milk sitting out was gonna quite late and that they could turn up the Kurds and way when they stirred it. Most of the lactose stays The way when you separate the Kurds from the way their adults could eat the Kurds and get all the nutritional value with either no arms or fewer problems from the digestive standpoint, yes, former digestive standpoint If you or anyone you know, is lactose intolerant, you have a sense of what that is all about.

So Kurds were really valuable source of nourishment. So people had a good answer figure out an easy way to separate Kurds from way, and this came in the form of perforated ceramic canisters. We have lots of archaeological evidence. For people using ceramic containers with with perforations immense, separate Kurds and way, there's also theories about woven basket, Well right, but those don't really. Yes, I end up to scrutiny longer. They don't hold up as well over thousands of years that we don't have much concrete evidence of whether people were easing woven baskets to make chief by separating herds in way. Based on the fat residues in pottery. I we think people also figured out how to make things like butter at about the same time. The earliest cheeses were all. They were fresh

if they were more like today's ricotta or other soft kind of Curdy cheeses, people would have eaten them quickly, since they would spoil without refrigeration. They also may have sealed and buried these cheeses to try to keep them out of the sun, keep them a little cooler and they will also the Kurds, could dry and the sun yet and its possible that ran in the environment from animal stomachs used to four men were discovered at this time as well. The record is super clear: it's not as easy to find residue of something on an animal skin. That's broken down over time as it would be ceramic, but it's a likelihood so really cheese. Making then spread out from the fertile present. We have lots of pottery cards as evidence that show the progression of cheese along with lots and lots of other things spreading out during the neolithic migration people were

cheese and butter from the milk of cows, goats and sheep, and one of the most recent discoveries of of this progression is from not too long ago, and it was a seven thousand five hundred year old piece of pottery. That was almost certainly used to make cheese, and what is Poland today have they did the same thing of looking at the remedy? Is there on the inside of the pottery in and what they were made of, and so for many years. Even with this migration progression outward from where it started the cheese still remained like the fresh acid, coagulated and rennet coagulated cheeses. So they still hadn't gone to the eighth cheese concept right and in some parts of the world that that's that continue to be. For always what people were making again

ample is an India. India has a really old tradition of using dairy products. The with lots of an EU which is clarified butter and using Kurds in their cuisine, but the We see that in business to India is premier, which is a soft cheeseman to be eaten fresh. There are lots of different theories for why India did not develop aged cheeses, and one of them is that there is such a focus on food purity in religious in that part of the world that people were probably not down with the idea of wedding things, mould on purpose and then remove who fill climate in India is also not great for be controlled spoil. It That is really what aging cheese is all about me. You know I'm imagining that conversation No, it will be delicious, no, it will be rotted, but thankfully that worked out and as soon as cheese became an important important as part of

diet. It also took on religious significance. Offerings of cheese were into the gods, for example the Sumerian Goddess Anon who got daily offerings of cheese and butter in a number of good. Gods and goddesses who had cheese among their offerings. They are also lots and lots of references to he's in many religious texts from all over the world. It didn't take long mobile people started, seeing the need to be able to store cheese to eat it later, instead of being able to make it and consume it within a day or two you so around fourteen hundred Bc Ii, Hittite writing starts describing more types of cheese that sound a little bit more like the harder cheese is that we have today. We don't have

really good evidence of all of them. We have more descriptions in writing, but they include descriptions like scoured cheese and hard soldier cheese through there's the logical conclusion that they developed ways of aging the cheese to make it harder to take down the water content and the two you said that it would last longer and being able to former wine on the genes, but we don't have a lot of lake very clear pottery evidence to go with that. It's mostly written descriptions that people are drawing conclusions from the first recorded shipment of cheese took place in twelve hundred BC e through the Mediterranean Sea, which is further evidence that people had developed cheeses. That would keep at that point. Most of the cheeses that were being shipped around were probably brine Jesus,

like feta that were stirred stored in ceramic jars and the reason that, even though these visas are very soft and wet, the reason that they laughed for longer is that their lots and lots of salt and them, if you dry salt white cheese that have lots of moisture in it. The way starts to come out and mixed with the south, and it makes this brine that keeps the cheese pressure for a longer period of time. Thank you so much for federal it is delicious. Yes, I literally just rubbing went on looking my lips over here. That was one of the hardest part of researching this by gases were not when I got to a couple of the teases that delicious and also very salty, and I wanted some real bad. So Greece became an important area for the drone of cheese and just like with the earliest cheese makers. The Greeks were making fresh cheeses for daily eating, but they were also exporting cheese.

They were developing these harder, hardier varieties of cheese that could survive voyages. Yes, we have a wonderful glimpse of how these high Jesus were being made in Greece, thanks in part to Odysseus, is encounter with the Cyclops in the odyssey, even though that is a work of fiction were pretty much being a play by play of how people were making sees at the time the Cyclops coagulated, the milk probably using rent it and maybe also fix up, and then he pressed and dried way got from that. The odyssey doesnt mentioned that he salted it, but probably based on other evidence at the time. He would have them salted what he got from that process and he would have pressed it and let it dry and it would have formed a rind as it dried. There were drying racks described in Cyclops. His cave

And so the result of this would have been a dried peccary, no or complete no cheese, and this is probably the first description of a rennet, coagulated cheese and literature and they take away from the odyssey is by ancient Greece. People figured out how to coagulate press and cheeses in this way would make arrived and would be suitable for aging. Just so fabulous that it's in the odyssey of all places, this record of cheese making now centuries later peopling Greece added a cooking step off. Which allowed visas with an even lower moisture content, which would make them last even longer. In Sicily, hard cheeses became wildly popular and by the fourth century BC. Their native cuisine at that point was full of grated, tease and cheese sauces. It was so prevalent that there were achieved naysayers. They were, they were sort of

there. The sicilian fourth century BC a version of the Agri food critic. He would be like. Why does there have to be cheese sauce on everything? Just let the fish stand on its own, suitably yummy oh she's making in Rome started a lot like it did in Greece, with people making heat coagulated fresh cheeses using these vessels, which I'll milk boilers. So, while the cheeses worthies coagulated than way kind of process, the vessels reusing were kind of unique to see that what's ITALY today, based on the distribution of these milk boilers, which were ceramic things that kept that the milk from foaming over the top its clear that making

Cheese is were was an important staple in the bronze age all over room. These were actually still in use in ITALY, as ceramic milk boilers until the nineteenth century, and then metal ones became in more common use after that point there is an interesting symbiosis that happen between cheese making and pig farming in Rome, the way that they were extracting during the ricotta process was actually a great food for fattening pigs right, making them also delicious they. Would milk lots of animals get lots of milk separate the Kurds from the way feed the way to pigs and then have worked as the greek influence? So we had talked about how in Greece they were making a smaller

oh Jesus, so as greek influence spread in Rome, hard Jesus did as well and by the seventh century b c e graded cheeses were a big part of the diet in Rome also, and there are many many and writers who put together very detailed agriculture, all manuals, and, if you care to do so, you can read so much about how people were making Jeez in ancient Rome. Thanks to these writers in room would raise large flocks of sheep to produce both cheese and wall. At that point, they had developed sheep farming that was geared more towards more protection

and they use the way left over again from the cheese making to feed the pigs and they also started experimenting work. It's really good for me personally, with smoked cheeses, right and also cook cheeses and much larger cheeses than the smaller size. Peccary. Knowing caprice knows those stay small so that the milk and fluid from the middle can evaporate more and they keep longer right. But then bigger cheeses became technologically more doable, the most famous Try it thing of trees in ancient Rome was called LE. Luna probably be accounts at the time are really exaggerated because they very describe it. Is this like giant thing of cheese? It was probably not his job, as it is often described by people, were using cooking and hyper

your pressing to get more of the liquid out of the middle so that they were able to make bigger and bigger cheese is. Is it how how big is it described? Could a family afore live in it, but one writer describe it as being able to provide lunches for hundreds of your servants at than from just one probably not actually, that big. Some of this innovation of of combining cooking and high pressure pressing may have come from that kills who were living in the alpine regions. They also were known his great chief makers and they had been making bigger cheeses than the little ones that had been coming out of Greece. The kelpie may have also started the practice of salting the smaller Kurds before pressing them together into one larger cheese. So again the thought was making it into the middle of a bigger tree, cheese, cylinder and preventing spoiling right like how it's all about me,

she's bigger about making the please bigger Emma. That is those obstacles. When you're working with those kinds of more manual processes to try to get the middle of the chiefs dry enough so that it doesn't spoil in the middle wild outside is drying. Give us no good. Now hey Jack you so you having found a little Patrick's quickly, Harding yeah two year old son age. I'm really sorry! I have to go, though unleashing a car, so I gotta get all those dealerships you now you should get the roadway rode out. It lets you LISA Car, where from your phone book, oh wow, that's really cool! Oh, but you know I still have to go in to negotiate rates and keep track of those taxes. And these sorry, but no you don't roto, does all that, for you too, they apply discounts calculate all the fees. The taxes the praises re here clears the shoe that is pretty cool. They even deliver the Cartier House.

Amazing they deliver to your house. Well. Well, I better get to house then thanks. My great advise Green Party welcomes future of car leasing Roto gives access to hundreds of cars from dealerships all over your area online or on the roadmap we give you crystal. Their pricing. That includes discounts taxes in fees will, even though car right, your house so hit the road the easy way with road out there. Where would we ve gotten up to you at this point? Is the end of it in empire before the roman empire fell, it spread military outposts and agricultural manner estates all over the place. Both the military outposts and manners, its had dairying and cheese, making tools,

when the roman empire fell. All of that stuff was left behind that people then continued to use to make their own new types of cheeses and those new types developed all sort of on their own trajectories. Based on the facts. Is that we'd already talked about like there was human curiosity and ingenuity, but also be no. What was available nearby, you know weather conditions, while the people that were there already knew, etc. So this continued to be true at even as the manners broke up into tinier fires were people only had one or two animals, instead of like a whole herd, pretty cheese from right now in France, ripened peasant cheeses began to develop. This was basically using the same cheese, making methods that had been common in the Mediterranean, but in the cooler com,

of northern France, people could hang onto their milk for a couple of days before they mean she's out of it. So in the Mediterranean that would have spoiled almost immediately but where the weather was cooler, you could milk cow and the milk, your car and the next day, and then maybe one more day after that and put that all together to make cheese out of and the cheat the milk from the first day of milking at that point would have more lack the gas it backed here in it being able to put all of that together and then put what you got as a result into an ice. Coal cellar meant that you could control this voyage. That was going on and the FAO friends cheese makers were coming up with blue me. Rind cheese is lacked cheeses and washed Rhine. She's these are all things that were having bacterial activity going on in the inside of the cheese that was creating this Rhine. That is often edible. That is basically Mould

How are you are making the most hungry faint wishes while manners crumbling into smaller farms in other parts of Europe, in England, many of them state intact until the end of the middle ages. So many his manners had good secondary made, super highs all of the dairying and most she's in those manners came from the sheep rather than the cows for most of the middle ages, and they contain to follow and refine many of the more hard cheese trends that the Romans had been using. So they have their whole own cheese culture again, not meaning to be funny, but their own methodologies and approach to it happening as well right in the thirteenth century.

So partly through the middle ages, the sheep who were being used for milking were also used for wall and the cows used for milking were also used for me and leather. But right around the thirteenth century, people started to divide that up a little bit, so sheep were therefore wall. There were dairy cows who were just for milking, and then there were other cows that were being used for their me. In there there leather is also about the time that the english dairying started to move to cows from sheep, because cows, separates more easily into cream to make butter out of and people were becoming very fond of butter in England. Eve of illnesses and really wet seasons which are bad for sheep, also brought down the sheep population, making the use of cow's milk to make she's a little bit more of a necessity and in them of Europe in the middle ages and the mountainous reasons cheeses had to be very sturdy and rugged

because you had to bring them down out of the mountains and leader export them and, for example, one of my very feeble Missus Greggory Year, oh yeah, I love the stuff. But Animals were generally pastured up on the mountains and then the people work. Them would live there with the animals, make the cheese there and then it would have to travel downward. This meant that the people who were making he's in the Alps had to work around the lack of salt because to get salt to the animal where you were doing the milking and making the cheese he would have to transport it up there, and that would be difficult and expensive. So, chief makers in the Alps figured out ways to cut the Kurds.

Than smaller and cook more of the moisture out of them and put the Kurds into a more we'll shaped form a lot of the cheeses before this point, where it were more like cylinders than wheels so putting it into more of a wheel, shaped form would give more surface area for better evaporation, so some of these alpine teases actually have holes or eyes, and I was from the collection of carbon dioxide during aging. There was bacteria in there that would flourish in those conditions and create these little pockets. They would give carbon dioxide as they reproduced in that carbon dioxide would excellently yet when collecting a whole, so that the whole that you think of in swiss cheese, that's from bacteria, propagate, she's is really just disgusting. So good. I can get passed a new disgusting parts, ineffectually. Incidentally, what gives it that sort of nutty flavour, my soul?

get another mountains ease that came from the middle ages as Roque, fruit and the veins and rope for cheese are from Penicillin Roque. Forty, which grows in the cave where it was aged. Real wrote for cheese today, comes from these same caves, where it was originally aged in the middle ages and wound up infested with the Spectre area that gave it its look in its flavour, Parma and also came about during middle ages, though it was not from the mountains and the techniques used to produce. It are com. The mountains, but there was plenty of salt in the Pool River Valley where it originated, so they didn't have quite the same limitations in terms of resource availability. That it uses techniques very similar to the alpine cheeses, just with the thought that the alpine people depend on this is where I wide some really Multi, purpose so bad. Yesterday, when I was working on a much so by the middle ages,

A lot of the EU that we eat today had had been developed, at least in there earlier form semi. There are many revisions and tweaks diseases that have happened since then, but lots and lots of the ones that we are most familiar with existed in some form by the end of the middle ages. One exception is the cheese that comes from hall. Where commercial dairying did not even start until the fifteenth century, because the land and the climate, or just not right for it, there had been Small farming in Derry operations on the coasts of the neolithic period, though, but is not enough to really form an industry around it right. The fall of the roman empire, the aristocracy in HOLLAND, started trying to reclaim HOLLAND's frontier and turn it into workable land. They did not have very many people

trying to do this. It was not. I have vastly settled area, so they would reward peasants. He would clear and work land with big grants of land and what they were basically doing is trying to turn bogs into farmlands by using somethin dykes to get all the water out of it as they were, to reclaim more land. They started by growing grains and then eventually moved from growing food to dairy and then so many cheeses the dairy farmers actually became really really specialised and they put out a in seen variety of Jesus through various innovations in packaging equipment, etc. Once they had the technology, they went wild sort of expanding and customizing, at which I love English. Makers at the time were responding to demand, while HOLLAND didn't have those constraints, so they could just invent new cheese. The people wanted, so that's where we get an assortment of delicious.

Including Edam Buddha, different kinds of packaging. From that sort of pocket of innovation. The round instead of square wheels. Thank you, HOLLAND, right There was a whole in England at that particular point. There is a whole kind of drama going on with tee There were the achieve, mongers, essentially and that was recognised by the government that had been really controlling the cheese making around London and then that went horribly awry and they had to start looking to other parts of England to make cheese and that led to basically the whole of English t making being about. How do we meet the demands of London. Holland did not have this problem, there might have had the rich luxury of a playground related, just came and develop chiefly thought would be meet TAT. So when you, These cheeses that have really lovely colored coatings, their sort of like a fool

and resilient in readiness to them. A lot of that is coming from the combination of what the climate is like in HOLLAND than the fact that the sort of just got to go. Let's think up some new stuff Let's see what happens if we wash this cheese with this other animal product think up tee so get hint eventually, colonists brought cheese and she's making pretty much everywhere there. People were colonizing, cheese travelled with everybody gets We owe our people of the ten t. Yes, then it's a very valuable new food source. I mean it's. It started as part of a necessity How can we make this milk not immediately be bad, and then people discovered that this is actually a good source of nourishment and a lot of ways, and the industrial revolution really change things because it mechanized a lot of these processes that had been kind of what we would consider artisan handcrafted.

Right so, whereas before they invest revolution, making seas with highly highly dependent upon the weather and the climate and the altitude and everything. The industrial revolution made it possible for people to kind of replicate those conditions in other places rather than saying hey. Ok, we have chattered cheese that were making and we're gonna try to figure out how to make cheddar cheese. Approximately in this, not very english climate and then winding up with some other chief becomes I'm all possible during the industrial revolution to say: ok, we're we're gonna, replicate this technique and also

replicate the conditions that were present elsewhere to make this cheese, that that will be more like what we are thinking about from where we used to live in the? U s- and you know there was of the long term cultural heritage that Europe have going into cheese, development and the cheese factories just kind of blossomed. Yeah people And we may have families and people have their family heritage and in May knew how their grandmother had made cheese before the family had made their way to the to the colonies. But there was not quite the the institution of cheese making,

as this long many many generations of thing in one particular place you so the U S became a huge centre of making an exporting cheese and in some cases traditional techniques have kind of died out because of the mechanism mechanization as well as supply and demand. Mozzarella in most places is not made the same way it once was now. That's bad mozzarella was thoroughly handcrafted, cheese and ITALY was made in very small batches and you can make it and a big factory with machines which a lot of the cheese today big factory, with machines, rather than the previous handcraft sort of small batches. As we have seen with many things. There is, of course, now and Artisans Eve Movement where people are making things in small batches, using the same basic techniques that people were using hundreds or thousands of years ago,

geez. I now ok, honey. I cleared out my whole daily cigar the whole day, yeah first We need to study. I have some flashcards here to go. Releasing a vocabulary. Cyclists me costs money, factors, disposition, faith you do not need to know that still leaves a car, but I gotta negotiate a good deal here. Look at this! It's the roadmap. You go through and take the car you want. Then they give you a tailor. Price is crystal clear. They ve already applied, discounts negotiated a low rate and included all taxes and pleased. Then they deliver the car to your house both, but what about the acquisition? yes, Ryan them to do you even know what an acquisition fee is? No, but I think it's on the next card there Welcome to the future of car leasing with the road, a lap you can choose from hundreds of cars. Writing your area. We give you crystal clear pricing,

discount taxes and fees. In once, you decide what car lease will even drive it right to your house. It's easy! It's clear! He's roto. We have today a lot of efforts to surf label the cheeses of quote the real thing, so, like Roque Foot, he can only call at ease rocard if it was actually made in those caves. Re people can approximate Roque for like cheeses elsewhere, but I can't carry the name right cannot carry the name. There are protected designation of origin or pda labels that label where the cheese came from or the geographical into

in order that the July label, of where the cheese came, Brahman and sort of like wines and how champagnes are only supposed to come from champagne and not California. The sparkling wine not only fertile, often call champagne right and not every blue cheese is route for right. How I loved you see it's hard not to work I'm sorry about gene. There is so much that's when, when I said Hale to do a pike asked about cheese, I think what you said is I could do. I can remember which cheese it wasn't. You said we were like. I could do a whole podcast about gruyere, proper, probably or he tossed retorted Norman.

Cheese that I'm a big Fatima. I think it's usually called Brunos over there. We call it does Canada it, but it's usually export it as that, it's a nominal when it has a sweet nutty. The brown cheese is phenomenal. Yes, still say that a lot there is so much to learn about cheese. Beyond this sort of the origins of cheeses that we ve talked about today, we will linked to lots of places to learn about more about. You and our soon it when we put those up after this pact has come now, since these episodes that were sharing our past classics, wearisome, updated information that will supersede in the context of you, ve heard before you wanna email us are a meal address. Is history pot as to how to work Stockholm, and you can find us across the spectrum of social media. As Mr History, you can also find us at missed in history, dot com,

and you can visit our parents accompanying house. The works councils of western home for more honest and thousands of other topics visit has a more exact com. The future is closer than you think, and it all starts in the palm of your hand. You may have heard the news five g is coming in this new. I hot series this time tomorrow, presented by team above a business, join me as well. Am I cursed care price as we walk you through the true revolution in mobility that will check the way we interact with the world around us join us, and here, just how close we are getting to a more connected This time tomorrow is now available on the eye, hot radio up or wherever you listen to port costs,