Though the Brown v. Board ruling overturned Plessy v. Ferguson, it didn't suddenly solve the segregation problem and end racism in the United States.
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This is an unofficial transcript meant for reference. Accuracy is not guaranteed.
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two guys comedian, P Coralie, and I will leave this. Comedy Goal I right to the PETE and Sebastian, show I Iheartradio radio at Apple podcast or wherever you eat your pad continued, you missed in history has not worked and welcome to the treaty, will I'm home and so have our episodes on segregation that we're doing this man. This is the one lay the most familiar to the most people. In times things that are immediately familiar to folks. People feel like we wasted their times and I'll bet
talking about Brown Verses board education without talking about the aftermath of it would be seriously incomplete. So, even though a lot of this is gonna be familiar to some people from is an american history or the american Civil rights movement. It really is necessary to talk about this part of Brown versus Board of education. Also, so our last salmon on this ended after brown versus words, arguments and re arguments. The case returned to the Supreme Court for some direction on how to implement the previous decision and chief Justice Earl Warren urged school systems to end segregation quote with all deliberate speed. So states and school boards had to find a way for the children who were attending segregated schools, which at this point was almost forty percent of the school children and the United States an integrated ones instead, but that second decision
it came to be known, as Brown too was really really just the beginning of the struggle to end school segregation. It was a battle that was fought all over the United States, not just in the south, and it it on well well, after what we think of as the end of the civil rights movement and just as the couple having us from the beginning. There are things that happened during this period that we are not going to talk about cause. This is basically thirty years of history that we're trying to get into one episode, We also definitely no that segregation laws targeted populations, besides just African Americans, but that's really the context of what we're talking about today. So there. There were laws that segregated mexican children and japanese children and chinese children bit were really
talking about the ones that segregated black children today. So here's how the opinion of the Supreme Court in Brown to which was issued on May thirty. First of nineteen, fifty five began well we're case that cited, as an exception, involve the lower court ruling against segregation. Just a heads up there So this and public education is unconstitutional and all provisions of federal state or low law requiring or permitting. Such discrimination must yield to this principle the judgments below, after that and the Delaware case are reversed and the cases are remanded too disparate ports to take such proceedings. That, inter such orders and decrees consistent with this opinion, as are necessary and proper, to admit the parties to these cases. The schools on a racially non discriminatory basis with all deliberate speed school authorities have
Tori Basis with all deliberate speed school, the primary responsibility for elucidating, assessing and solving the varied school local school problems which may require we'll have to consider whether the action of school authorities constitutes good faith, implementation of the governing constitutional principles later on he's justice or a war and talked about using the phrase with all deliberate speed, given something more immediate like forthwith, because there were some very very real obstacles to schools, integrating from a practical standpoint. They had to consider how would school systems redistricting? How would they make sure that these new districts were integrated?
what they do is faculty. Your staff positions turned out to be redundant and what, if gaps appeared, that meant systems needed the higher more people? On top of that, the court couldn't take it for granted that school systems would operate in good faith when it came to integration, so integration plans had to be court approved, and that was of course to be a time consuming process. There is also the fact that a lot of the schools that black students had been attending were frankly not fit to be used. So, for example, in Prince Edward County Kenya, which was where one of the Brown versus board cases had originated, the school for black students had no rest rooms at all, and it was so overcrowded some students were attending classes in literal shacks outside of the building as well an old school bus, so school system we're having to figure out how to have enough space for people and facilities that actually we're fit to be used
oh needless to say, integration was definitely not as simple as flipping a switch and saying. Ok, everyone goes to the same school now, but this idea of deliberate speed, also meant that there was not really a timeline to follow and there wasn't a deadline for integration, and that gave white communities that did not integrate a whole lot of leeway and time to kind of digging their heels. We're gonna talk about how they dug in their heels. After a brief word from a sponsor Look at the stuff! You have been history, three glasses brought to you by love book. If you, I wanted to say a love story with somebody, but you weren't really sure how to start that is where love book comes in. These are totally customizable books that you can give as to the people that you loving care about. Most people use them to list the reasons why they love someone. You can create characters that look just like yourself in the Then you're sending the book to you all the way down to outfits and accessories, and then you have
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twenty percent disco. So, as schools started, integrating there were definitely school systems that once they were ordered to do so by the Supreme Court Integrated, and they did so without a lot of overt incident and to be clear up without a lot of overt incident. Kind of means that there were not massively violent, tests on the school grounds. It was pretty much standard that the black students who started attending majority white schools routinely face discrimination, harassment and violence, and not just from their peers, but also from parents and other adults, at the same level of harassment was true for leaders in their school systems who had worked towards integration. They faced the same kind of backlash from the greater community, but in many places, resistance to Brown versus board was direct, overt white parents picketed and protein
did others pulled their children out of school rather than having them go to an integrated school politicians built their campaigns around maintaining segregation. George Wireless of Alabama famously arranged his gubernatorial raise around keeping school segregated in it inaugural address, announced quote, say: Nation now segregation tomorrow, segregation forever various state governments try to argue that the states have the right to protect its citizens from unconstitutional actions on the part, The federal government and part of this argument with the idea that, in spite of the Supreme Court's ruling Brown versus board, in fact unconstitutional sums, all systems found ways to keep up the appearance of integrating. Whilst
multimedia cely, maintaining segregated schools. They made virtually unpalatable exams that black students have passed before transferring we ve seen things like this happened before in our civil rights discussion, or they allow parents to choose school, their children would attend banking on the idea that white parents would keep their children in white schools which were generally better, while black parents would keep their children in the schools that were intended for black children simply because they were afraid of retaliation, school officials scented clearly unworkable integration plans to the court's, knowing that the courts would reject these plans and that they would have to start over maintaining the same Asian while they were coming up with a new plan, the end of life he, went and of having to argue court cases all over the country and while the Supreme had remanded cases backed away records. These courts did not always work in the Spirit of the Supreme Court's ruling. So when brig.
MRS Elliot, which was one of the five Brown versus board cases, came back up in a lower court. The judge found the Supreme Court. it outlines segregation, but it had not mandated integration and this kind of underhanded pushed back from them, Clothes was really widespread and it went on for years in another segregation case of federal district court for the southern district of Georgia found that it stirred jurisdiction with outside of ground sports jurisdiction- and that was in nineteen sixty three. Although the decade The thing had come out in the first place, federal level, nineteen senators and seventy seven house members issued quote the southern manifesto, which has read into the Congress record. On March. Twenty of nineteen fifty six, the southern me Esto condemned the Supreme Court's decision on Brown, Virtues Board and read in part the original cost,
you shouldn't does not mention education. Neither does the fourteenth and meant nor any other amendment- the debates proceed: the submission of the Fourteenth amendment clearly showed that there was no intent that it should affect the systems of education maintained by the states. The very Congress which proposed the amendment subsequently provided for segregated schools in the District of Columbia. The southern manifesto also included themes. That became really comment in the greater context of the civil rights movement. Another quote from it is quote without regard to the consent of the government. Outside agitators are threatening immediate and revolutionary changes in our public school systems. If done, this is certain to destroy the system of public education in some of the states in nineteen fifty seven one of the most famous moments of the backlash against school integration took place in,
rock outcomes are the Little Rock School Board had announced its intend to comply with Brown versus board on May twenty, eighth of nineteen. Fifty four and the federal court had approved its plan to do so. about a year later it was a phased integration plan, with full integration to be completed by nineteen sixty three and September of nineteen. Fifty seven nine black students were set to unroll in central high school and little rock, but the Governor Orville Valdis sent in Arkansas National Guard treves to keep them from doing so. The scoreboard asked the court for a delay in integrating a school in the court refused, and this led to a ban all with the governor and the Arkansas National Guard on one side and the federal court on the other, with students finally enter the school on September, the twenty third with through an angry mob of white protesters and then a riot broke out that sent the students back home again. Press
Eyes deployed federal troops to try to restore order and to protect the students all of is played out on national television when the government had sent in troops to protect newly freed slaves and ensure that they were granted the right to vote after the civil war. This federal intervention further stokes tensions in the south. The governors actions in this case also became part of a whole other Supreme Court case Cooper, verses, Erin, which upheld Brown versus board and condemned the governors actions and this example really just one of many high profile examples during the journey of integrating schools it happened, public schools and colleges all over the south, with troops having to escort black students into previously all white schools by nineteen sixty. So at this point, five years after brown to the allegory,
bleak in spite of new laws, federal orders and the presence of troops. Schools in many places don't segregated and black children. Their families and white supporters were facing everything from harassment to violence on a day to day basis. There were protests all over the place, but very little actual integration was being done in the school systems that have resisted. So far, The Supreme Court became increasingly direct in its instructions that school systems integrate and Prince Edward. Virginia was back in front of us. The court again in nineteen sixty four having closed its schools, highly relevant integrate them. The court ordered the county to reopen it, schools and justice. He go black said quote: there has been in hi early too much deliberation and not enough speed, still segregation cases got all the way to the Supreme Court in the late nineteenth sixties.
core reiterating over and over those schools had to integrate, because black children had a constitutional right to the same. Education is white. Children. And finally, and in the later nineteen Sixty is, there was gradual progress and it alongside many of the other key moments in the civil rights movement, but progress was extremely slow and many schools it was found that as white families had moved away from neighborhoods were black people lived in a migration known as white flight. Logical school district lines yielded schools that we're still segregated, and this led to the advent of bussing and nineteen. Seventy wine, the Supreme Court, where the case of Swan Verses, Charlotte Mecklenburg, Board of education. the best thing Charlotte City schools, which overwhelmingly had black students had merged with Mecklenburg County students and the students and met
bird county were more predominantly why the school system proposed several plans to integrate these schools, but most of them still wound up many black students still in majority black schools. So am I The solution that they came up with was to bust students from ajar, black neighborhoods to the white schools. There was really lot more going on with the Supreme Court ruling, but in short, the Supreme Court upheld blessing for the purposes of school integration. Also part ruling was the idea that any school that was overwhelmingly one race was suspect, not just schools where segregation had been required by specific law. This and other Corky
This meant that suddenly, schools in the north, which had not specifically pass laws requiring segregated schools but were operating in a de facto segregated state, now had the integrate as well. So I think that the the integration struggles in the south get the most attention. lot of civil rights classes, but then, when you get into school systems, meeting school system outside without leading to integrate through birthing There was some really similar, similar licking protest that broke out that it's a lot less attention as an example in Boston, bussing led to a full scale crisis I seventy four! The court had ordered that the schools be integrated through bussing and all across the city. Black students were harassed, spit on and threatened as they rode the bus to school, and this was kind of another phased integration.
The of this went on. For a long time, white skin students started boycotting schools and white families who could afford to moved out of Boston into suburbs or more predominantly white. Finally, the Supreme Court heard a Detroit bussing case. no again versus Bradley. Detroit urban Centre was overwhelmingly black and its suburbs, which were a separate school system, tended to be overwhelmingly white in order to maintain integration, students would have had to be bust from one school system to another. In a five to four decisions in the court ruled that bussing children across municipal lines, when those lines had not been specifically created to enforce segregation in the first place, was quote wholly impermissible and outside the bounds of what Brown versus Board had intended and as far as integration, and so this dismantle bussing efforts in some of the most
aggregated cities in the United States, because the only way to create a school that was integrated was too literally move students from one community into a completely different community to go to school. Thurgood Marshall, who we are that, in our previous episode had at this point, become the first african American Supreme Court Justice in the United States. In his dissenting opinion, he said quote Our nation, I fear, will be ill served by the courts, refusal to remedy separate and unequal education for unless our children begin to learn together. There is little hope that our people will ever learn to live together. The practice of blessing did continue. I know that there was nothing in my school system that I grew up in this. Fine tune the balance of of racial makes than one school in the other bit
it didn't continue in the more extreme way that had been proposed in Detroit. So consequently, in a lot of places of white families kept moving into more predominantly white suburbs, schools flip kinda being more and more segregated. As a result,. lot of ways. Integration remains a struggle in the United States as neighborhoods overwhelmed me. One race or another. The same thing happened to the schools, so there's systems all over the? U S in which maintaining integration would involve bussing children long distances from different school systems altogether. At the other side now I was at First Bank, which is a science museum in Atlanta on time, and it was during the week because I have a day off and at last of students came in to the to the I'm acts theatre much I'm actually, and it was a one hundred percent black class and the teachers were also black
Looked at the person next to me- and I was like is their segregation still in Atlanta like. I was completely floored by this, because that, where I grew up was not as merely as large as naturally into is so. The neighborhoods were not like a large enough to yield an entire school that was largely segregated, ah This was like a wake up call for me. Total RO the being that there are still schools that are effectively as segregated as they were in the fifties because of how neighbour headlines run, which has contributed to buy run, which has contributed to by all kinds of others. There's? U economic actors, yeah. There are a lot of a lot of like similar factors in the mix, and it is a little bit startling when you see
Well, and similarly startling is that even in schools that are overwhelmingly one race or another, alot of classrooms become effectively segregated, because african american students are. Fortunately, representative, lower level classes and upper level classes often overwhelmingly of white students, and this again is because a number of socio economic factors, and that is definitely what, in my own public school experience, also which, in a ran from the mid eighties until the early nineties, yeah, and there are also some both implicit and explicit discrimination elements happening there. That's Cree that sort of classroom level segregation. It's it's a very complex web to try to unravel, and you can't point to any one specific thing, but they are all factors
in contributing what is not the cause, and I want to say this clearly- is an inherent lack of worth in any one to use attending school. ass, we think about that for a second. Let's take another brief moment were a word from a sponsor. Episode of stuff. You missed in history, glasses, brought. You buy Norton three sixty with lifelong let's just say your shopping online with your smartphone. I do it all the time they sure feels like your personal info is right there in your hand, but that's not all the case because as soon as you hit submit, your personal formation could start going other places. In fact, when you shop, bank or browse online, your personal info can get out of your control, which can leave you vulnerable to cyber criminals. More threats demand more protection that, Norton and Lifelong are now part of one company Norton three six, He would lifelong is an all in one membership for your cyber safety that gives you device security, identity theft, protection and of GPS for online privacy. No one
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I am comedian, P Coralie and I really find that six years ago on a bus in Tehran all eyes, terrible Iheart radio is number one for podcast, Zeno purpose man that you go like the step by step, might have it doesn't say anywhere near due in the highest pitch voice. You had a cat, there's other pod case out there that you probably listening to or watching listen feed I'm telling you right now. This the restless ones themselves and dived deep into how the five g revolution could enable their teams to thrive, the restless ones is now available on Iheart radio AB or wherever you listen to podcast, fair to return to Brown, verses, board and kind of
turned to brown verses, board and kind of circle back around so where we started specifically in terms of the schools that yielded those first, five cases that went before the Supreme Court here is what happened in Support Kansas, which was where Brown Verses Board started, segregation process did start in nineteen, fifty five, but a nineteen. Seventy nine one of the original attorneys, Charles Scott Junior, soon to have the original case reopened, because the pattern of segregation, as we just talked about before the break. Had re emerged in a lot of the schools in Somerton in Clarendon County South Carolina, which was the focus of the Briggs versus Elliot case. Schools were integrated in nineteen. Sixty five in Prince Edward County Virginia, which was where Davis versus the County School Board of Prince Edward County started as we
alluded to earlier that school system closed its schools and from in fifty nine until nineteen sixty or rather than integrate, Overwhelmingly. This meant that black students in that school system had no way to receive an education, but on the other hand, many white students wound up attending private schools thanks to their nations from segregationist and other parts of the south. The state of Delaware, witches were Gebhardt at all versus belt in at all and Gebhardt versus Bula taking place, had actually begun de segregating schools in nineteen. Fifty two However, as white families moved into exclusively white communities, a pattern of segregation reemerged leading to a federal court ordered bussing programme in nineteen. Seventy six another case which was part of all this but which we haven't talked about so far was bowling versus sharp, and that was a case that started in the District of Columbia,
and it made its way all the way to slip through the Supreme Court separately, from Brown, verses board and before Brown versus board. The Supreme Court old unanimously in nineteen, fifty two that segregation denied black students in the District of Columbia due process and that the rights guaranteed under the fifth amendment to the constitution even though it had already been decided before Brown versus board first reach the Supreme Court Bowling His sharp was included in the re that were about how to proceed with integrating the schools although the Washington DC schools themselves did comply with the Supreme Court's decisions as we ve. in so many other cases, white families started moving out of Washington DC by the night. seventies. There were really not very many white students left in Washington DC schools at all The ninety percent of the student body in Washington DC was black many of the people,
we had been involved in these cases wound up having to flee the states where they lived for their own safety. Reverend J aid, the wind, the high school principle, who help bring the first issue in Briggs versus Elliot, fled the state for his safety after his house was shot. few and then set on fire. Barbara rose Johns. The Prince Edward County High school student, who led the strike that launch protest about the conditions of the school for black students before Brown versus board fled the state of Virginia as well. We would really be removed if we did not talk about some of the ways that the Brown versus board legacy played out. That were not strictly about the issue of school segregation. Even though it sparked a huge backlash in black communities, Brown versus board was overall met with a sense of joy and vindication. There was debate about whether it was a good idea to force the issue and
we're definitely people who didn't want their children to have to attend school somewhere that they obviously were not wanted, but over all the nations highest court had in a very public way and what felt too many people, like the first time ever found in favour of african Americans equal rights, and that was cause for some. asian. Although the civil rights movement was already under way, when Brown versus Board reach the Supreme Court, the decision really helped propelled the movement further as people built on the Supreme Court ruling in favour of equality to launch protests in other areas of life. such is the lives, counters and buses and bus terminals and in protecting people's voting rights,
monumental moments in the civil rights movement, including the Montgomery Bus Boycott, the Greensborough lunch counter, sit ins and the freedom rides all have some routes in Brown versus board and so to civil rights legislation signed by President's Dwight, the Asian how're in nineteen. Fifty seven M Lyndon Johnson so today overlapping Lee. If you ask the simple person whether Brown Verses Board was the right decision over well, mainly, the answer would be yes, because schools aggregation was wrong and discriminatory, and the idea that, at that point the Supreme Court, that, at that point the Supreme Court would have ruled in favour of discrimination, as it did in plenty versus Ferguson is abhorrent to a lot of people. But then You look at the idea of constitutional law. It's a whole other matter. Rovers bore did look at the question of how segregation related to the constitution when the case was re argued. The fourteenth amendment was a major
guess, but ultimately, the idea of segregation as inherently discriminatory and damaging was a major major part of the decision. decision had immediate direct applicability to the lives of an overwhelming proportion of the? U S, population, it materially changed the way. Most people lived. This set a new precedent in the world of the Supreme Court and civil rights, and there are definitely major civil rights rulings before this and after this. But this is really the one that changed and a huge way and in a way that a lot of people appetites seriously objected to change the way people lived which is why, even though the decision itself at this point most miserable are like yes, obviously wish, we should have ended segregation, yes, the precedent for without men, in terms of other court cases and how much like how big steps the court could take
the starting point for a lot of debate about that. Do you also have a little bit of listener meal? I view, as with last time or listener mail, is both brief and kind of cheaper, because this episode is, little bit on a longer side and also the material is not the happiest material. So this is from Sophie. oh if he says high, Tracy and Holly. I love your pipe cast, but I wanted to share a slightly disturbing experience I had, while listening to your six impossible episodes. I was listening to the pot cast on my ipod steering the Robert the haunted doll section. You could just talked about how people often experienced technical failures around Robert
Now a lot of people write him letters of apology for taking his picture without his permission, I'm a fairly sceptical person. So at that point I was thinking that the whole story sounded like urban legend when my ipod, which had a full battery suddenly and inexplicably, died and we started, I'm not saying I suddenly believing ghosts, but I would like to apologise to Robert for listening to applaud cast about him without his permission, We then services. That would be often. If we didn't episode on the wailing ship ethics, then I think I responded to Sophie to say there is one and archive harangue em don't residency. Bert, the doll. That's a winner really really until as I was working on that episode, I was like I dont really believe in all this thing, with the doll being unlucky, but I had that tiny seed of doubt in the back of my mind, of I'm also was sceptical person, but I was getting ready. on vacation, and I was like what, if maverick
Is your ruined because a rabbit? The doll ask his permission to do that at the third lady. I did not. I am sorry rubber talking about you you're back. If you would like to write to us about this or any other pot cast, you can write history podcast, but has to works that com, but also on Facebook, at Facebook, but calm, Flash misspent history and on Twitter it miss than history. Tumblr is miss than history that tumblr com and our pinterest printers that found Flash Miss in history. We have spread shirt store at Lisbon, history, outspread short back com, which is empty t. Ten cases a cases and things like that, if you would like to learn more about talked about today- comes your parent companies website. That's how it works, dot com and put the word civil rights with it in the search bar and he'll find cow to civil rights movement work if you would like comes our website. You can find every episode we ve ever done, including the whales ethics and you leave, shouted for everything only and I have worked on. You can also find it.
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