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podcast? Will you accept this rose, which is new to the eye heart radio broadcasts network? We re cap every season at the bachelor franchise, including the bachelor, the bachelor at an bachelor in Paradise. We bring in bachelor super funds, including last bass, Nicky Glaser, Debbie, Ryan and more listen to will. You accept this rose on the Iheart radio, app apple pocket, or wherever you get your broadcasts. Couldn't you missed in history has not for a moment the part tat. Somehow we try and I'm Tracy Wilson crazy. It's been a little while sitting had a history mystery and I love them. So my twenty, like I always restrain myself, I'm doing a bunch of birth and history MR uses Fund, as indeed it is, if we call more I'm so sorry, today, and this one is an artifact. That's been studied for more than a hundred years, although some, of course the figure it out there is really no consensus about it. So we're gonna be talking about

Minoan Crete and the face those disk which was unearthed in nineteen o eight, and this is an artifact which feature symbols that, like the voyage manuscript, have really puzzled researchers for decades but, like I said, one has been able to agree on what it is over there. Some people pretty vehement, especially in recent times that they have got this thing figured out. So Crete, of course, sits in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea the island is about two hundred kilometers or a hundred and twenty four miles across EAST West, it ranges from twelve If the aid kilometers or seven and a half to thirty six miles North South Minoan, often credited as the first european civilization had a decentralized sort of culture which did have pretty brisk export business.

Timber, food, olive oil wool and die were among the many goods that Crete sold or traded and their most popular imports were precious metals. Precious stones in ivory. Minoan culture had contact with Egypt, Mesopotamia and Phoenicia, and they are constantly influence. A lot by all of those cultures. If you listen to your episode on the venetian alphabet, you may recall that part of the development of that alphabet came to the negative, creating this unified system of communication for trade with all these various mediterranean cultures, and we know that Crete was inhabited as early. The seventh millennium b c e, although it wasn't until after the fifth millennium b c e- that we really to see pottery in the timeline and that sort of marks the beginning of the Minoan civilization. There are a couple of different is that the Minoan Civilization is divided into periods. One method is based on this point

free and marks changes in the style of pottery. This divide that as the early period dating from three thousand a twenty one hundred BC, the middle period from twenty one hundred to fifteen hundred BC and the late period dating from fifteen hundred tool seven hundred BC, eat and there's an alternative way of looking at the time line of Minoan civilization and breaking it up and that's based sort of on architecture is its linked to the culture and this separated into force segments. So this breaks Minoan Crete into a pre palatial period from twenty six hundred and nineteen hundred BC e a protein palatial period from nineteen hundred.

Seventeen hundred bc a NEO palatial period from seventeen hundred fourteen hundred Bc Ie and a post palatial period from fourteen hundred to eleven fifty BC. The face justice was discovered in nineteen O. Eight. It was found on Crete in what is called the old Palace of Minoan. Faced us, the disk made have fired. Clay has been dated two eighteen, fifty two fifteen, did you see with an estimated for bad seventeen hundred BC as the more exact date? This means it predates the time that the Venetian This would have been developing their alphabet, alchemy, It falls into the Middle Minoan period for looking at the pottery based breakdown of the timeline and sort of strategy. Protein palatial, a mere palatial periods, alternate timeline. Circa too, thousand b c e in the cross over period between the pre palatial and protein palatial periods. The political sense

shifted and Minoan. Crete became more centralized around a king. Remember we'd, said earlier with decentralized prior to this, and this is So when these palaces became part of the landscape of Crete, This sort of both centres of government in community, while there was a great deal, of upheaval around the shift from a decentralized culture, the one that was focused on a central figure things, to settle into a peaceful period, not long afterward. Some events, we don't know exactly what it was if it was a natural disaster along the lines of an earthquake or if Minoan Crete was invaded, but some event destroyed. These palaces that had become administrative centres and this destruction and the rebuilding of the lost palaces mark the transition to the NEO palatial period, and this NEO palatial period is also considered the time when Minoan Culture was at its apex next week,

like about this disc in more detail. But first, let's have a break to talk about one of the awesome sponsors who make this show possible. So most people will do whatever it takes to make sure that their small business runs efficiently. In the mean, sometimes the that involves concert trips to the post office, but that can actually get in the way of efficiency. So, as I com, you will be able to spend less time at the post office and more time actually growing. Your business stamps that comics mailing in shipping super easy. You just use your own computer in your printer to purchase and print official. U S postage and that's gonna work for any letter and any package that you need the same stance.

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disk now that we ve kind of set up where it would have fallen in the timeline in terms of Minoan Greek culture. The disk itself is pretty small. The diameter ranges from fifteen pointing to sixteen point five centimetres, which is six point two to six point, five inches depending on where that diameter measurement is taken at this is one of those things I have seen pictures of it. A very is point through the years in my head. It was always so much bigger than that that then, when I was working on research for this, as it gives suddenly yeah, it's like when we did the episode honour and together a device which I somewhat only thought was quite large until you're like now. It's like all she bargains little. The thickness of this disc ranges from one point, sixty two point, one centimeter. So that's about point six, two point: eight inches in thickness. There's a spiral pattern of more than two hundred and forty images on the desk featuring forty five different symbols in the the centre of side, a is what looks like a simple flower and then the symbols

well out from their in groups that range from two to seven in number: there: article lines that separate these groups side be, has assemble, that's made of wavy lines and sort of a rounded triangular shape at the center Yan Tracy Jeff sandwiches and my notes, a kind of the there's an image in the centre and then it sort of spirals out from there, but there are actually two different theories about how this spiralling really works in which direction its first ago. So one approach points out that the symbols are oriented to the right, so faces litter in profile. There's limits often called the punk, and it looks like a due to the mohawk and it it looks to the rights and figures that to be walking or in motion, also look like their walking to the right, and this has led some scholars to the conclusion that the disk should be read spiralling outward from left to right This is also supported, by a sort of abrupt end point in the spiral where, at the very end,

where the last loop kind of meets up at the previous wonders of part vertical line, that's punctuated with several dots. It looks like a very fine, all sort of symbol to some people, the opposite, reading direction, which goes from right to left in spirals inward, is supported by the fact that some symbols occasionally overlap and their symbols on their right. This indicates that the stamping was done from right to left. Yet so, just like you, write a word with the last letter first and then go backwards, most people- maybe some people are now right backwards, but their ideas that they wouldn't be overlapping in that way because normally would write it the way it would be beginning to end. So that suggests that it goes that way and the symbols we mention that they were stamp. They appear to events

Did the clay before firing and what sort of interesting is that these stamps don't appear to repeat, even when they are very similar to one another like it's the same punk their reappears. But it doesn't look quite the same said there may have been more than one state for that So yes, symbols that are almost identical, don't look like they were made with the same stamp and there are a few position the clay that look like it was stamped and then be reworked kind of smoothed out almost to erase the stamp, and then re stamped prior to firing unlike the symbols, the spiral wine from the centre out and the lines that break up the segments of the symbols look like they were carved into the disk by hand rather than stamped fascism die. Also appear in some of the symbol groupings. These elements partake

The dashes may have some kind of significance, or they may have been accidently imprinted, as this was being made you they they're, not consistent in where they appear like. In some cases they appear near the beginning of each segments, but they don't do that the segments, sir we're not sure- and there is never, as we said Before- been a consensus among researchers and scholars. So what these symbols represents. Some are obvious pictogram. They would like humans like attacked, but the punk they look like fish or hours, while others of them are more abstract. Can a liquid Tracy mentioned earlier that the centre point on Side Beazley, wavy lines in this triangle? That's got kind of rounded edges, and because of this, mix is clearly not specifically just a pictographs item, but there are too many different symbols for it, too likely be an alphabet, so it's possible. Symbols represent syllables, that's a very popular approach to analysis and Each segment of symbols creates a single word, but the seller

very theory has problems as well. For one thing: if the symbols on the face justice formed a celebrity language there, be a more even distribution of the symbols. There are also, no one syllable words and very few to celebrate syllable words present if the disc is interpreted this way, which would be pretty unusual for a language he has other things for his eye was researching and saw that, unlike is that and I'm looking at my own typing and I'm like half of these words, have only one or two syllable well there I think there our languages have, on average longer words that still generally have shorter words. Also better. Now for most languages, shorter words make up sort of the bulk of the language, and then you get compound words that are like mixes up disordered rights. So it is also possible that this this is a mix of communication forms. It could be a combination of pictogram and celebratory and we're gonna talk a little bit about. Why that's a possibility in just a moment

Many theories have emerged into what this disc actually is, although there is no real evidence for any of them. It's been suggested that it's a letter of fertility Ritual Sample musical notation, a list of royalty, are religious him, a spell geometry It goes on and on and on and on, but without similar discs. Two reference against these: all really just stabs in the dark here. But the one thing that you mostly do agree on, and this is not always. The case is that it is pretty commonly believed in accepted that the disk did in fact originate on Crete, and was it created somewhere else and then brought their this episode of stuffy myth in Israel

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of the rain and eventual passing of a king most face those disks scholars rejected that interpretation. However, there have been other interpretations but for through the years, but all of them have had a similar fate in the classics community here they ve all really been dismissed really readily. But there is a very recent interpretation theory that is now being discussed in this introduce just last year, so in May of twenty fourteen Minoan Language and classic scholar, Gareth Owens gave a TED Ex talk about his work with the faced us. Is, he and other researchers works together with their knowledge of the writing, forms Minoan, LINEAR, a Minoan LINEAR, B and cretin picked a graphic higher growth hieroglyphic language over the course of six years. Here's to assign syllables to the picture grams on the desk cretin picked a graphic script.

Was in use, circa, nineteen, fifty two, seventeen hundred Bc Ii and the symbol, used in this writing former pretty clearly drawn from real object? So there's a lot of animals and humans and plant life representation so for context on these rating forms that we just mentioned. Creed picked. Graphic script was in use, circa, nineteen, fifteen and nineteen to seventeen hundred BC e in this. Used in this writing. Former pretty clearly drawn from real objects such as animals and humans and plant life, you're a is believed to have been used on Crete from about eighteen. Fifty two fourteen hundred bc attic language, and while we know that some of the fanatics represented by most of the symbols, we don't really know the language of LINEAR a when you re when found on artifacts increase, as well as the Aegean Islands, and you probably

just an overlap, as we were just talking about those two in the times of use when cretin picked a graph and linear a were both being used, and we don't know why. See more primitive. Any lower, advanced writing forms for being used concurrently for so long, but that could see How explain the idea that the writing on the disc is a combination of different forms this sort of linguistic evolution snapshot Lenny your b is an adaptation of linear AIDS believed that this was a version of the writing form and that it can take more than nine signs. This script was used for fine means more than nine these signs. This script was used for financial records, and was you considered incredibly important, linguistically because vestiges of this dialect remain in evidence from homers writings, yet it really did have a long, lasting influence and its common when interpreting something like the faced us disk for classicist and research,

here's to work backward from linear, be too linear aid cretin, pictogram writing when their working to interpret these texts. Using this, so called epoch. Graphic continuity, which is one of the things that Owens calls it he's developed. His interpretation of the fixed disk Owens. Reading of the disk also suggests reading it inwards the outer edge of the spiral rather than from the centre. Ouch Owens. Believe that he and his team have deciphered enough of the signs on the desk to determine that. It is some sort of prayer to a window in God is then a particularly in, thing finale to its talk. He shares the recording of a woman reading the faced us disk, as his team has declared that it, and you can also find this- courted audio interpretation on a website that Owens and his colleagues have put together and willing to it in the show notes. But it is pretty interesting to hear someone speaking this language. We whatever it is this communication Owens conviction in his final

is quite apparent. In fact, he is willing to bet other researchers that his interpretation is correct and his bed is only one euro, because he's really hoping a lot of people will challenge them in an ill wind up with a lot of euros. Yeah for each different bet, hook on to collect one grows yeah for each different. That he'll come to collect one euro and that, of course, does it mean I mean we. We talked earlier about how many other people have put forth the reason they all got shot down. So it does not mean that even though Owens is The entire classics world agrees with his transmigration. So in a response paper that was written by John G Young, who is a professor classics at the University of Kansas? He kind of goes through point by point where he feels like is right in their work and what he feels like kind of diverged and was it may be so solid and he said, as is his points at the end of the paper by writing, quote. I think, oh and starts off well and in the company of many of us who have tried to play secure phonetic values on face those disks signs by working backward from linear, be that by the time we get to

pictogram signs, the identifications have become insecure and the step to identifying faced us disk signs now seems a leap. Owen has bridge some of that law. But I cannot follow him in identifying ninety percent of the face. Those disks signs, let alone seeing in his transcription true parallels to linear a words Thomas J Polina, Robert EM, strong sent me professor and director of the programme and a gene scripts and pre history at the University of Texas, Austin Route of the Owens interpretation, but data are insufficient, were proof or disprove. Every proposed decipher meant Gareth Owens is included. Fails the standard of probability yeah, I was actually surprise watchings, whose documentaries and doing research the probability comes up a lot like linguistic probability. Wasn't

I thought a lot about, but it's kind of like that same thing, where we were saying earlier, like the likelihood of a language having no single syllables, not so probable re, it comes up in terms of statistical analysis of language, a lot more than I ever would have thought about, but another critic, Brett Davis, who is the magic professor at the center for classics and art gee at the University of Melbourne was asked his opinion and he said quote in the end, his readings are based on a stack of unverifiable assumptions. His conclusions are vain and improvable, it's not surprising, that so many scholars of E g, bronze age, scripts, art accepting them the fight The sums Owens is steadfast and beat an email. Our view. With Bible history daily, he wrote it is perhaps ease or to criticise them to offer something new. After twenty five years on Crete and having spent a decade doing a phd in linguists,

and the structure of the Minoan language and after six years on the desk, I personally will keep trying to improve our work, and I will happily here better theories with great pleasure. Yet he really is a very up. Agent has talk, is really good if you're like me, when you first start his TED talk, he starts in another language and you think oh no, this is it for me. That's only the very beginnings, stick with it and then, if you are a native english speaker, you'll be right on board. He switches to English for the rest of it, but he gives the talk in So he started speaking, I believe Greek, but before we talk a little bit about a whole other controversy that surrounds this disc, less pause for another word from one of our fabulous sponsorship keeps us going this episode of stuff. You miss in history, glasses, brought. You buy Norton three sixty with

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Fell, one more time that is square space, dot com, flash history. So there is the question of whether this whole thing is really a hoax. The man who discovered the face justice was Luigi per year and he was an italian archaeologist. He found desk in an underground, simple depository. He also believed it to be of religious significance, along with the faced us disk. The Italian The algae team that he was part of found a clay tablet with linear ay inscriptions as well as various pieces of pottery, and recall that this was in the early nineties, hundreds when he made that discovery. Now, as is the case with other ancient artifacts, they haven't been truly understood. I once again reference the boy to train is gripped which has come up as some people think it's a hoax, because otherwise somebody of decrypting it by now. Controversy again eventually enters the picture with the faced us disk as well in two thousand eight Jerome Eyes and Burg. Who is the direct

an owner of the Royal Athena galleries in New York and is considered an expert on ancient art proclaimed at the faced US disk was in fact a fraud Bird believed that per year out of jealousy that he held for other archaeologists of his time and their accomplishments fabricated. An accomplishment of his own he's, not the first person to put forth the idea that the debt baloney, but he seems to be the most passionate about it when it comes to really chasing down the truth and its work, His accusation, eyes and bird pointed out that the edges of the face- those disk are far more cleanly cut than other examples of tablets from unknowing creed and he also sites the lack of any kind Google translation as evidence that it really is likely fake nationally no other artifact found on Crete has the same type of stamping or writing as the face those disk one piece, the Ark allegory acts founded. Nineteen thirty four does have some similar markings. But I am also believes this might to be a fraud.

So our listeners or smart, and as they have to listen to us just now talking about icebergs claims. They pro. We had a great idea. The faceless disc is carefully captain correctly on Archaeology Museum in Crete. So why does it someone just test this to see if it's the real deal or just along pondered fraud? Never think we of ice. A tube testing what's going on the museum is not having any of that. They will not allow this to be tested. Eyes and Burg has requested the testing many times over. The years offer pay all the expenses would it would incur, but no, ice. They also have the acts that we mentioned a moment ago and not letting him or anyone test that either burg asserts that the required tests are not going to harm the disk most one you small holes, would need to be drilled and the edges artifact to take samples so tiny that he says these can easily be repaired so that the naked eye would detecting no anomaly.

Requests to even examined the disk have been denied on the grounds. That is an important piece of greek history and is an movable eyes and Mercosur. If the museum is afraid that the disk would be revealed is fake and if they would lose tourism because of it? Yes, so it remains a mystery unless they Cavan acquiescent. Let someone testing a hundred people, love hoaxes, so it might actually went out in their benefit if it were fake. At that point, it still a hundred year old, really carefully. Crafted hopes will be interesting. Yeah there was. This is kind of a footnote. It's such a weird thing and I from just one reference to it, but I wanna dimension it. There is allegedly a smaller copy of the disk that was found in Russia in ninety. Ninety two, you that raise some other hoax questions, but Thou version has vanished without a trace several years after people started raising their eyebrows about it, it just kind of went underground. It has never been

never heard of again, so we we don't have that for comparison. Yeah, we don't have this whole thing just makes me wonder if, if hundreds and hundreds or even thousands of years from now, archaeologists are going to find some kind of junkie thing, somebody bought an urban outfitters that has like fake HOPI designs on under some five hundred zero years, trying to decode it when really it is cheap stuff. That appropriated another culture and then was sold in a retail stopped yeah, I wonder similar things as well. I mean I I had that moment of what, if it's, just some kids doodles at his parents fired at what I do.

Now what if this was a prop? That was really do right, yet we have no there's just enough similarities. You know and valid interpretive elements to it valid to be interpreted elements to it that it, it seems like it could be, grounded there, but people have also pointed out that it's just far enough off that it supports the hooks theory and that its ass to good enough to represent pretty closely what we knew about man no increase in the early nineteen hundred. It's so we don't know and hopefully will learn more at some point. I would like some fresh learnin before I think of them are wild.

Make sure you have some listener mail for us. I do. I have a couple of different pieces. It's a listener. Male strata game's over here. First, I have a correction because sometimes I'm adieu. Fifth, when we had read in a previous episode a time capsule Emil during our listener male segment, we bring about Andy Warhol in those time capsule than I incorrectly attributed warehouse, death Valerie Solana, because my brain cannot be trusted. She did shoot him I'd much later because she shot him and I like it here was lake. We read singing about it, my head and my brain was fired. I apologize, I feel very embarrassed to serve to love Warhol. It did a lot of papers on him when I was younger, but it doesn't always stick with. You is like a foreign language. Sometimes you not practising it is this catastrophe. And then I have several short listener me males all about. Our recent episodes peanut butter because, like I said, I loving talk about it a lot so the first one is from our listener. Perry who wanted to recommend the dish for peanut butter

this is as high ladys I'm sitting here, work listening to today's pon cast on peanut butter, and I thought I'd take the time to recommend the strangest endless, delicious peanut butter dish. I have ever had the pleasure of eating a few years ago, my younger sister status MR abroad in Ghana, and when she returned home, she couldn't wait to take me to the nearest authentic. Connie and food restaurant we could find she was so excited for me to try one dish in particular because of my love Red STAR ingredient, which peanut butter, apparently peanut butter. Is revered in Ghana, who knew I highly reckon looking into the nearest place. You can find to try a plate of peanut butter. Soup and food is a dish, sir, with sticky rice, roll into balls and dip with your hands into the chicken and peanut butter soup. Although it may sound like a strange combination for peanut butter lovers like ourselves, it is this throughout the tastiest dish ever Perry. I am glad to report that I have had flew through and I agree I think I have

The first time when I was in this world, there is a real there, a couple, a really Emmy african restaurants at an looking them large one point: one of the chefs team out. We were talking cause it's my favorite right as food, and we were talking about the food issue and he brought me some sticky rice and we play the night together, which was delicious, and it has now become one of the big favorites the next one is from our listener penny, and she is also writing about it. She does photo editing in a fashion company what called me pennies and his She says when I was a young girl. We lived at my grandmother in Ohio during every summer in winter, rakish him she, the large old house, the large basement that I was. I was too frightened to go down into one evening. I tasted I or fly down into the basement and ended up staring at shelves upon shelves of canned goods and boxes of clothes and random things. I remember seeing large cans of peanut butter city on the shelf, at a level that were bigger than my head. I was too scared to venture forth and I ran back upstairs

I remember from that day forth. I thought that every time I asked for a peanut butter sandwich that the peanut butter came from one of those taken now that I've older and my grandmother his past, I visited her home, but it since been cleared I asked my uncle about all that stuff I saw, and he said that during the great depression, my grandmother was expected to take care of her younger siblings, ass. She was the eldest and the family basically survived on peanut butter. The great depression did something to people, including turning my grandmother into a horror of food and clothing from goodwill. She was convinced the next depression and economic collapse was right around the corner and she stopped upon everything deter You never go hungry by always having peanut butter near by and even now I was have at least three peanut butter charge in my house just in case. I can't I can't find the idea of keeping butter on hand for a variety of reasons, except that I can't because I eat it all much too quickly-

I gladly apocalypse comes and bribed like we're thy food. We bought I'll, be like in my tubby. It's got back in the last one is from our listen, of every we laughed so hard came latest snail. I was doing some work and I was cackling so much that it frightened my cats is. Is this recently when listening to the fascinating history of peanut butter? My ears pricked up when I heard you mentioned Santa Tots food company, because I'm a funny thing. I've noticed here and Australia, and they left at the particularly M is an American from Boston and it is currently living in Sydney. These peanut butter is one of many surprising things that all these dead designate, as quote very american. I of course love the stuff and I was I took when I found a jar of peanut butter at my local grocery store, with a picture plan of a peanut doing crunches to indicate that it was crunchy, peanut butter. This picture it is so funny. I literally cannot stop laughing. He says it doesn't take much to make me laugh, but when I posted

on Facebook. My sister pointed out the funny name of the company that made the peanut butter, which sanitarium and then he made the connection to John Herbie Kellogg in the battle Creek sanitarium and appointed him to that episode, but I just want to share the idea that you Peter Buttercup here have presented by a p. That exercise is apt. Put that thing off, but I also why you you expressed your horror, but I do not care for friendship, peanut butter. However, on the fourth of July, we had a a an entire beach day, which is great, and we had sandwiches for lunch with sandwich provisions that friends had brought and they had like a crunchy peanut butter and it was delicious. I had it within a peanut butter and banana sandwich, so I think perhaps either my taste touching,

which is true, there's other stuff that was, I hated where's child like now or I was eating the wrong crunching peanut butter. What I was going to say, I developed a theory after we were doing that the queue Ellison on that up, asserting that, because you had mentioned the Big bang, peanut butter that had to be stirred and some times because of the stirring and the the peach hunky peanuts in it. They can break up a little and you get almost a green texture- and that might be the problem that you had previously like it gets, it gets a little weird in your mouth and that some of the natural, once you have to stir winners, She made so much better now than they were in nineteen have really are. I remember we had a friend who had we dissociate hippy parents is really not appropriate yesterday, but seventies than my parents said about her parents and they have that kind of peanut butter announcement, Ruby, like yeah. This is difficult to consume and it too my bread thereof

food options that that might like that holding pasta options that exists now are also so much better than in the seventies. Anyway. That's all if you would like the right to us about crazy legumes, doing exercises on matters of food or any everything you can do that. I can now start com. You can also bookmark Hobbs Latchmere in history on twitter activist in history. That mission history got tumblr Pinterest our complex, missed in history, and it missed in history that Richard COM, if you would like to spend his three shirts and phone cases,

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