Colchester claimed to be psychic and probably did warn President Abraham Lincoln that he was going to be assassinated. He became an icon for Spiritualism in the U.S. in the 19th century, only to be rejected by that same movement.
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hello and welcome to the pond cast on how we try and I'm afraid three be welfare.
Not quite Halloween time yet but like the rabies are here. I have it worse this year than any previous year. I think but
This isn't quite a Halloween episode, but periodically
really wow, I'm researching topics for Halloween
which I was kind of making my preliminary list. They often veer
to discussion of fake mediums like I'll just run into mentions of that are notes. I've made about it and alive
the time I come across. This mention of the
alleged psychic, who warned President Abraham Lincoln that he was going to be assassinated. If you do any
of mediums during the nineties
three in America, research you'll bump up
against that mention, and I keep
scribbling notes to myself to look it up. So I finally did- and I will say this story took me to some places that I did not anticipate not
in any sort of lake scary
creepy Halloween way, but this lake there's some fastening
legal stuff.
As well as just a person who manages to be
kind of elusive in terms of hard details about their life. So today we are talking about Charles Colchester.
That may or may not have even been his name, but he became
I converse spiritual ism in the: U S in the nineteenth century, only two ultimate
be rejected by that same movement. Yet so, as highly just alluded do cultures early life is entirely a mystery. There's a mention of him and the Detroit Free Press. After most of the events that were talking about today,
and already happened. It is a column, titled news, brevity use and that states that quote the real name of culture is seal, be worse.
Big. He is an english impostor and the spiritualist declare that he is the fraudulent trickster and not one of their number
who ass boiler alert. Colchester gained a significant following as spiritualist with some very high profile patrons, but he was so problematic that the whole spiritualist movement then try to distances
from him. Yeah. There was a lot of met, one of us now, one of us. We don't know this person. I don't know her,
the theme in the spiritual with mean of the nineteenth century
What we know and we gotta use airports there about Charles Colchester- is only what he told us
rather than anything that he could substantially prove he was
English. He claimed that he was a Duke son that was born out of wedlock and he claimed that he can read. Sealed letters and
also that he could summon apparitions. He also said that he could produce words
on his body carved in blood by spirits, and he manifested all of these things in front of audiences. Although it was not part of this personal story that he wove Colchester also drank a lot and he did use his alleged connection with the beyond to validate his drinking, he claimed that the spirits had authorized
which is kind of funny. It's me yeah, apparently, when people would ask him, do you wanna, go get a drink, you'd be like. Let me communed with the spirits and then
be like yes, they say we should absolutely go, have a drink after performing seances for clients in New York and Boston for a few years. That was really the start of his traceable movement. Colchester appeared in Washington DC during the civil war and he drew just an impressive audience of the city's elite, including people like
general grant and First Lady Mary Todd Lincoln. We have talked about Mary Todd Lincoln's fascination with spiritual ism in the afterlife before Michaud she came up when we covered spirit
William Mumler during our Halloween, live, show a couple of years back. She was his most
famous client, mummers, most famous client, hoping that he could capture heard departed. Husbands, ghost on film
He, of course, obliged
was, I mean there were many spiritualist in her life, but we really haven't talked about how she became so very drawn to spiritualism em in the sad catalyst there
was the death of the Lincoln Son Willie, who died from typhoid fever at the age of eleven in eighteen, sixty two, the lincolns each
mourned in their own way. The president spent time alone was very withdrawn and grew frustrated with the ways that people tried to console him by talking about Willie being in Heaven. He eventually turned his energies,
to the needs of the country and Turmoil Mary, on the other hand, was swept up in the growing spiritual, is a movement and it offered her the hope that she might some house see or connect to her beloved son once more interests.
Some form she was hardly alone in this. The massive death toll of the civil war had created a whole nation of people who were grieving for lost loved ones. Can it
through marries. Many connections and invitations to mediums and spiritual lists that Charles Colchester
came into the lives of the lincolns and once he did so, he took full advance
of that proximity, the power to bolster his name
as Mary became ever more devoted to Colchester Seances, the president had felt compelled
to accompany her to visit this compelling spiritualist, not because
and at Lincoln believed, but because he,
to see what exactly was taking place at these gatherings
Lincoln's relationship with spiritualism has been,
written and remarked about many times a lot of people have theories and they try to connect him too.
Mesmerism were spiritualism and claim that he had this mysticism, but he said
above all. If you really look at it to want to protect his wife, he never did
waited her from this interest because seeing
Ritual is going to say answered seem to offer her some peace but the press
and also did not want the first lady to be anyone's victim. So when he saw Colchester seance
was mesmerized, but not in the sense of just being taken in by it. It was totally the opposite
Abraham Lincoln, wanted to figure out exactly how cold sisters tricks worked. The president got the Smithsonian Institutions Secretary at the time Joseph Henry involved in the investigation. He requested
Colchester submit to an examination by Henry which he agreed to. This is yes, the same Joseph Henry, who introduced Yunus Newton Foots papers and that up
said. Yeah there's also an interesting story between Henry and Lincoln, in that they were very much on
the citizens of the political spectrum, but also respected each other, a lot
he's background was in science, and he were delighted in telegraph, specifically
so for this demonstration Henry had culture
your visit, this Macedonians, so that this examination could be kinda.
In a room that the medium had not had prior access to and after that
counter Henry came away entirely, convinced that culture,
was a charlatan, but he couldn't prove it
He had very clearly discerned that there was an other worldly clicking sound. These were supposed to be evidence of spirits B,
called by the man, but that
clear to him. They were emanating from Colchester person and presumably some sort of device, but cultures.
Would not consent to having his closed removed for examination, and that was that
Incidentally, now Joseph Henry supposedly did uncover the origins of these sounds totally by accident. Much later,
he said to have met a man on a train and started just idly talking to him and this marvellous bit of happenstance this
man had engineered a telegraphic device that spiritualist used for exactly this purpose. They weren't around their biceps, and so the user would flex a muscle, and that would produce this clicking. Sound Henry ask this young man. If he had sold such a device to Charles Colchester and the guy said. Yes, he reported this information back to the president, who was apparently pleased to know about it, but he did not put a stop to the first ladies meetings with
Mr something much darker ultimately took place to sever that relationship yeah Abraham Lincoln, I think disliked have being in on the secrets. But ultimately what happened was that culture blackmailed Mary Todd Lincoln, or at least he tried to he wanted the war
department to issue him a free railroad pass, so he could travel to New York easily this
might sound like a fairly benign request, but at the time the war had led to a move on general sermons. Part too severely limit and regulate civilian travel by rail, so that that motive transfer,
could be dedicated to the movement of troops and material. Even people with ticketed
travel could board only if it did not interfere with the needs of the union army.
Initially in this whole system, train passes were fairly readily available. People at all levels of the military would just write them, even if
people were not really authorized to do so, but this of course became opera
bloom and regulations got tighter and tighter to try to curtail needless travel. So, by the time this
happened in asking for a pass issued by the war department. Colchester was at hand
to sidestep step a whole lot of regulations, and he almost
got what he wanted, because he told the first lady that he
publicly share some of the privilege
and presumably embarrassing information that he had learned while working with her. So that
that was how Noah Brooks was called upon to help the first lady turned to Brooks for help over this blackmail. Attempt and Brooks was a close friend of the lincolns and also a journalist. He had dealings with Colchester before because of his concerning influence over the first lady,
He wrote about this in his book Washington in Lincoln's time. The person that he's describing in this was named Elizabeth correctly so quote. A seamstress employed in the White House had induced MRS Lincoln to listen to the artful tales of a so called spiritual medium who masqueraded under the name of Colchester and who pretend
to be the illegitimate son of an english duke the poor lady at that time was well nigh distraught, with grief at the death of her son Willie by playing
her motherly sorrows Colchester actually succeeded in inducing MRS Lincoln to receive him in the thing
we residence at the soldiers home where in a dark
the room he pretended to produce messages from the dead boy. By means of scratches on the wane, scouting and tat in the walls and furniture, MRS Lincoln's hold me of these, so called manifestations and asked me to be present in the White House when Colchester would give an exhibition.
Of his powers here we're going to quote a lot from Noah bricks cause his is one of the few accounts by a country
very that actually had direct dealings with
and was close enough to the Lincolns, to really understand kind of how this was playing out
Naturally, he told the first lady that he did not want to go to this science at the White House. He does
say as much in his book, but it kind of seems like he didn't want to embarrass her, because he did want to see
Colchester was all about many got
chance shortly thereafter to attend. A pay
sitting that one of cultures, other wealthy followers was hosting so Brooks paid one down.
To go and see the medium for himself will talk about what happens when no abreks met Charles Colchester after we pause for a quick sponsor break
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in his by
Murphy of Lincoln Brooks detailed. His encounter with Colchester at the science that he attended and paid for writing, quote after
company had been seated around the table in the usual approved manner, and the lights were turned out. The silence was broken,
by the thumping of a drum the TWAIN
of a banjo and the ringing of bells, all of which, instead
and had been laid on the table ready for use by
some Hocus pocus. It was evident that
operator had freed his hands from the hands of those who sat on each side of him and was
self making quote music in the air, Brooks who was obviously not the least bit taken in by Colchester Theatricalities, decided to find the real source of the noises he went on to say quote
loosening my hands for my neighbors, who were unbelievers, I rose and grasping in the direction of the drumbeat grabbed a very solid and fleshy hand in which was a hand bell that was being felt dotted drumhead. I shouted strike a light, my friend after what appeared to be an unconscionable length of time, lighted a match, but meanwhile somebody had dealt me a severe blow with the drum the edge of which cut as light wound. In my forehead when the gas was finally lighted, the singular spectacle was presented of the Son of the Duke firmly grasped by a man who was covered with blood, while the arrest
sign of nobility was glowering at the drum and bells which he still held in his hands. Colchester ran from the room with him. He refused to return the
first of all of em, said that he
is outraged at having been so insulted only a couple of days after that that Colchester bade blackmail attempt on the first lady, what unpleasant things that Colchester was planning to reveal
We don't really know. Presumably he wanted to get out of Washington DC in a hurry and to avoid any additional entanglements. But when Mary Todd Lincoln brought the matter to know a brook, he decided to confront Charles Culture Stir and exposed him as a fraud to put an end to the blackmail and hopefully also get him out of the White House for good and so to account
wish. This Brooks concocted a plan that required MRS Lincoln to invite the medium to the White House once more
idea here is that Colchester would presume that she had his railroad pass and wanted him to come and get it, and this plan
kind of seems like an all hinged on Colchester, not having gotten a good look at Brooks during the science. As you recall
had been seated in the dark, and even once the gas lamp was lighted, Brooks S face had been cut
in blood, but it.
Also possible that the hope was that Colchester would just be too embarrassed when confronted to run into Brooks
four of the first lady to say like
ass. You caught me faking it my say: I see her there so in this way
arrived MRS Lincoln, introduced Colchester to her friend Noah, Brooks and then left the room as though she was going to get the pass once she had gone Brooks lifted up the hair that had been swept over his forehead and that revealed revealed the cut from the drum strike that happened at the the he he asked. Do you recognize this Colchester
again muttered about being insulted before Brooks told him quote. You know that I know you are a swindler and a humbug get out of the city at once, if you're in Washington, tomorrow after
noone. At this time you will be in the old capital prison. Interestingly, John Wilkes, Booze
was drawn to Charles Colchester for the very same reason that had brought married.
Lincoln into the spiritualist orbit, and that was personal loss. When boo
sister in law, Molly died. The actor started attending seances, hosted by view
yes mediums in an effort to make contact with her and that
eventually led him to Colchester, but then Colchester and booth became close friends outside of any mystical setting according to witnesses. They spend a lot of time together. They were described as both friends and associates by people who witnessed them, particularly as the two of them came and went at the national hotel, which is where booth stayed in the week.
Leading up to the assassination of President Lincoln Historians Harry offered in his booth, biography fortunes fool, suggest that boosts attachment to Colchester may have been rooted in the mediums claim to be able to see the future he may have been hoping for. Some sort of sites
a reassurance regarding his intentions toward the president. We have
no idea if booth clearly disclose those intentions to Colchester
but Charles J Colchester felt compelled to warn Abraham Lincoln that something bad was going to happen.
Lincoln, is actually said to have mentioned cultures warning to an associate, but that is the only information we have regard.
Any actual communication between the two of them.
This was actually one of many warnings that various allege psychics offered to the president. In the time when spiritualism was popular throughout the: U S,
within the White House. Thanks to the first lady after the president was shot and died from his wounds in April of eighteen. Sixty five Colchester Association with Booth was something that was just tat before
right of investigators mines are. They were looking for any accomplices, anyone involved in what had happened and Colonel Henry H.
Wells was a lawyer before joining the Union Army and he
He was investigating and attempted to meet with Charles Colchester as part of that investigation. He had try.
TIM from the national where he had been staying to the Washington Hotel, to which he had moved
He wasn't there either. If the medium had stayed in the city, he had been a really good job of hiding. He was never located for questioning in the official investor.
Asian. It's a little unclear exactly when Colchester may have issued his warning to the president in relation to any had his runnin with no a brooks. So whether
he did leave town right after being exposed as of fraud or, if he's
doc around and then ran right after the assassination is a little bit unclear. Even though Colchester left Washington, he certainly did not banish all
the face of the earth, he was moving around and performing his sciences and readings than popped up in the papers again in the second half of eighteen, sixty five we'll get to that after we hear from the sponsors that keeps pessimists in history class going
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Colchester
which arrested in New York in August, one thousand eight hundred and sixty five for what may seem on the surface to be an odd charge. According to a newspaper, account quote
J Colchester a leading medium and only second to the famous human notoriety as a spiritualist has been arrested on complaint of the collector
internal revenue for the twentieth district of New York on a charge of prayer.
The same Jugglery without a license. Ok
did. You give him a little, and it did me when I read it. Jugglery in this case does not mean literal juggling, although that is certainly aware that word can be used is referring
trickery or manipulation, and in Colchester case sleight of hand specifically
Colchester was taken in partakes of evasion because he refused to register his profession as a juggler Colchester had been practising in the Rochester area in the spring of eighteen, sixty five, when the assessor of internal Revenue, William H, Rogers, instructed him to take out a licence as a juggler Colchester refused. Although we offered to take out a licence, is a spiritual media
There was no license for that and writers told him that, based on the information he had, Colchester was indeed a juggler. Colchester was arrested and a complaint was filed with the. U S, commissioner, the meat,
appeared for a grand jury and was indicted and the case was sent to trial. His defense was that he,
not in any way a magician or juggler, but a legitimate spiritual
and so he should not have to register as something he was not
this really kind of turns a try
into an instance where spiritualism itself was being debated as the same right up
quote as a result of the trial will be allowed
decision as to whether the phenomena of spiritual ism are supernatural or mere feet
juggler. It will
very interesting one and strongly contested the prosecutor
plan on calling a range of present educators to confirm the Colchester,
as indeed a sleight of hand. Man and the defence plan to bring
spiritualist to testify to Colchester legitimate abilities consciousness,
playing with mainly that he was closer to being a member of the clergy than a trickster. When the case began on August 19th, one thousand eight hundred and sixty five
strict attorney opened by laying out the question of whether Colchester should or should not be registered as a juggler and made it clear that in his mind, spiritualism itself was not on trial. We also managed to get in a dig at the press were suggesting that this was the case. He said quote the performance of singular and extraordinary feats of wrappings answering questions in closed and envelopes, and the like publicly and for fee and reward will not be seriously contested, perhaps admitted the peculiar defence of the prisoner. I can only gather from newspaper reports,
public rumor, which assert that the prisoner will prove or attempt to prove the end, the performance of those feats of apparent legerdemain. He is the mere instrument of spiritual control and that he does not practice sleight of hand. While I can see the inestimable value of the press, I cannot forbear the remark, but it has been made the instrument of magnifying the case into undue proportion that the caused the public to believe that it is a contest between the
states at a large body of citizens calling themselves spiritualist an endeavour on the part of the former to crush out a religious sects and to expose its heresies if it has any and that the result of this trial will establish the fact whether spiritualism is true or false. Nothing can be further from the truth. The result of this trial can accomplish. No such thing. It is a simple inquiry. Whether Charles J Colchester is practising sleight of hand under the guise of spiritual control, and if he is, it is quite as important to professor spiritualist that he should be.
Supposed evidence to the public whom he is deluding and to the government, which he is defrauding over the course of the trial. Many of culture esters high profile clients, a lot of them. Politicians testified that baby
entirely in his abilities as a medium, but the damning testimony came from people who
magic, including from a man named James Rogers and Magicians assistant, who had worked with Colchester briefly,
he told the court than he had seen Colchester using his foot to create a wrapping sound by striking the legs of tables, but he also
that culture himself had told him, it was in the parlour
so the day, humbug
finger. Rogers account Colchester was holding eight to ten seances a day, making
or two dollars for each one and restrict
attendance to only one or two people per sitting
presumably said they would be unable to detect his force. Another witness James Connally testified that he had as a client witnessed Colchester, switching out envelopes that contained questions for him and we're supposed to remain sealed and surreptitiously opening the original question. So we could answer and appear psychic another witness which the physician
named Walter M Fleming, saw Colchester on several occasions, witnessing, among other things, the blood riding upon his arm. The witness at one point presented Colchester with questions sealed up in cans to see if he could answer them, but Colchester. On consecutive days of trying told Flemming that spiritual conditions were
not favourable for answering them. The case proceeded on in this way with character witnesses for Colchester and detractors, describing his trickery for what it was on
twenty third the jury. After hearing the case return their verdict. They found that Charlie
Colchester was a juggler and this verdict
We kicked off a lot of fear in the spiritual ism community, even though the district attorney had said that was not the intent at all, but a lot of practice.
Dinner's worried that they too would be tried by the government over taxes and discredited in the process. There were quick
Greece, as well as to whether Colchester had been given a fair trial or if the whole thing had been framed and biased.
From the beginning. Despite those remarks to the contrary. At the opening of the arguments to be clear speech,
Journalists were not aggrieved at Colchester being called a fraud. They were just
The manner in which his trial was conducted could similarly find any of them frauds weather
That had any basis are not there,
An examination of the matter came to the conclusion,
however, that he was,
is undeniably a truly a juggler
after all of that, the sentence was just a financial one: Colchester had to pay a forty dollar fine and the court costs of four hundred seventy three dollars those sums or pay.
His supporters than that matter was then concluded. The trial results, dinged cultures, confidence at all. It was not for long soon. He was on tour touting his skills and looking for clients.
In an add that appeared in the Cleveland Daily leader in the summer of eighteen, sixty five said: Colchester, the wonderful Colchester, the incomprehensible Colchester than medium can be consulted at his rooms american house.
A few days only
but even though he kept working from the moment, the trial ended there were. Then people constantly looking for proof that Colchester was a fraud and stories kept popping up in the papers about, in
one particularly charming one from the Boston evening, transcript on October tenth eighteen, sixty five reads: quote a correspondent of the Hartford Times
the Colchester, the juggling medium, was detected by him at a circle in Hartford, in a feat of juggler
nor a number sitting in the dark with join hands were touched by spirit
hands on their faces. When one sees
used to the hand with his teeth and discovered that it was
tallow candle which Colchester had blown out when the circle was arranged. He was once again
in hot water, with the? U dot S, commissioner, in April of eighteen, sixty six, this time in Louisville Kentucky for the same charge. This time just pertaining to the performance of Jugglery without a license in the state of Kentucky
most I'm Colchester did not really argue the matter. There was once again testimony which,
according to an article in the Buffalo commercial on April, sixth quotes a confederate of cultures
admitted on the examination that the manifestations were produced by mechanical agencies- and this was not denied by the former. In that case, Colchester was allowed by the commissioner to file his license. As a juggler
in late May. Eighteen, sixty six, a story ran and papers across the country, titles spiritualism done four and a half
sub header cultures
thoroughly exposed his spirit manifestations shown to be tricks, deception,
ends and the violent impositions
Article was an open letter written by a man named Da Mccord, who had briefly been Colchester's agent.
Culture has been widely exposed. Already. This particular missive was penned according to Mccord, quote from a sense of justice
swimming in some ways to need to unburden himself for his part in any of it, he writes quote. I was his agent for a few weeks.
And was compelled to leave him detecting his deceptions with
his drunkenness disorderly
conduct and other vices. The confessional states that Mccord witnessed Colchester using his foot against the table leg to produce a wrapping found and red billets through trickery, but the one component of cultivators ACT, which had continued to befuddle even detractors, was the quote: purported spirit riding on his arm and Mccord spilled the beams on that. To quote he uses the short led pencil member to he prefers the corner of a room in the evening time a light sitting by him in the daytime a window behind him. He chooses thin printing paper because easily and noiselessly opened the investigators right questions and names of deceased friends upon billets. He manipulates them having his blank previously prepared, which he holds in the hollow of his hand by the third and fourth fingers this. He exchanges for one of the written
billets, then perhaps he may request all to write another question or name during which he dexterously reads the billet by holding it in his lap behind the table, spread your basically has them right. Those questions so they'll be occupied, and then he can do his other set without them noticing Mccord
further explained that, even though there was the illusion of randomness in which Colchester had someone select a bill, it from a had, he always
you sleight of hand to ensure that he knew which one was going to be selected and then
as he employed various theatrical tricks of dramatic misdirection, he would use
pencil to write on his arm. According
Mccord. He then quote bears his arm rubs it slightly with dampened fingers causing the blood to run
into the pencil indentations,
producing the wonderful blood red writing under the cuticle anybody
can do this with little practice. Mccord concludes with a list of eight rules to employ. If you want to visit Colchester to ensure that you see all that he does and conclude,
With quote, I make this exposure not to injure him but to keep others from being injured and defrauded by villainous impostures. He then lists is addressed and invites any once a visit if they have more questions, what a quaint practice
here, is a home address. Here's my home address printed in papers across the country
those those the rules. I didn't list out cause they're, pretty they're pretty
common sense e, it's kind of lake make
sure that you sit in a place where you can see his hands the whole time
sure that you like mark your Margaret lead, their very, very simple things another.
Agent, J M abbot,
also wrote an open letter that stated that he had been acting in good faith while working with Colchester
The true believer in spiritual ism, and that one
the deception was detected. He took his leave of the fraud. These letters were often print
together. He stated
his letter quote and yet how the spy
its can control a man so immoral, so given to drunkenness deception.
Non payment of board and printing bills to say no,
of other vices still lower is to me
a mystery Colchester continued to Rome after this plying his trade
really not for very long.
In early may of eighteen, sixty seven a year after his two former agents had debunked last wisps of credibility. Charles Colchester died in key a cock Iowa. He had sat in the White House just a few years earlier and had an influence over the first family in his trial for Jugglery had been widely reported in detail. But by that time his death ran in papers is just a one liner, sort of in aggregated columns of miscellaneous stuff, no kind of leg. Charles Colchester medium died in Kiev Cook. With my kids, I was it some had a few additional. You know, sentences about
He was, but it was. It was very low key at that point. I did not anticipate when starting this that I would end up in the middle of the Jugglery try Algeria, which is pretty interesting to me. I have listener mailed it
not about mediums Jugglery Jugglery at all. It goes to our episode episode on of
and actually it is from our listener. Caitlin
In the end, they right as a disability study student. I was thrilled to see that Monday's episode was about some orthopedics history because it really interesting. I really appreciate it. How carefully all were with your disk,
where's about changing language and treatment of disabled people in both the episode in the behind the scenes,
When you began describing the hip dislocation and treatment process, it sounded very familiar. My aunt Cathy was born with
I am a bifida and the Associated Hip displeasure and had corrective surgery and casting is a toddler with her legs. Casting sticking out from her sides, Astraddle type position. If you can't picture it, she could not fit.
And her stroller. My grandmother was about to leave the baby home. While she took my dad and uncle around town doing daily activities, so she asked my grandfather to do something he went to his hobby would shop and built the Cathy Car, a very basic adaptive wheelchair that let her sits,
often supported as she was toted around upstate New York, my grandmother,
that nearly every time they went out, someone would stop them and ask about the stroller. This is the
Seventy so is very unusual to see a disabled child out and about with adaptive gear. My pop would send them the plans,
or build them their own dear, my grandfather
tell it a whole fleet of Cappy cars took over the region. Thank you for all the work,
I love hearing a new episodes in listening to pass favorites on, repeat Caitlin. I love this
note, I love anybody's ingenuity. I love the idea that someone created
adaptive.
Mobility device before that was even a phrase. We knew apps
cool, I hope Caitlin. If you have pictures of this, please send me one because I want to see what it looks like a sister, a fascinating. My husband work do not build a little bit so he's. I was very interested in those as well, so we would love to see it, but I just love it in itself
a nice quota to how you know not always would families have been like. Yes will solve this problem and so low that it's a very positive way to do it. If you'd like to write to us about anything, you have heard on the show or just any piece of history and didn't you can do that. If history podcast it, I hurt radio dot com can find us everywhere and social media as missed in history,
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Transcript generated on 2021-10-18.